Live2Ride Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 ...Until we walk a mile in their shoes... I think that it's great that she has made sure he is well and cared for and found someone that can do the same with her. There are a lot of people out there that wouldn't do that. Who are 'we' to judge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It's not something I could ever do. It is against my belief in marriage. Sometimes horrible things happen in life. God didn't promise me a perfect life or that everything would be fair or happy here on earth. Things happen. When I married my vows were until death, and I took that literally. Even if my dh sustained serious brain damage, that would not invalidate my marriage somehow. Other people might have a different belief/view of marriage under those circumstances than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) DH read the story and we talked about it. We came to these conclusions: It's incredibly complicated -- to us. Neither of us would re-marry. We would remain married to each other and care for the other person as we should with the help of family, G-d-willing. I asked him about female influence for the girls, and he pointed out we have four daughters, three amazing nieces, our daughters have an amazing aunt, and we have as family friends two women with whom we have been friends (me, for all of my life). For male influence, my son has two wonderful brothers-in-law, and an incredible uncle. I do think that there are probably as many ways to handle the situation as there are people who read this thread. Edited January 29, 2012 by MariannNOVA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 And like Kristen, I'll take care of DH no matter who he is. But, here's the thing: She IS taking care of him. Personally, I suspect she may well be more capable of taking better care of him now than she was as a grieving, lonely not-quite-widow. I sounds to me as though these new relationships create a more loving and nurtuting situation for the first husband, rather than depriving him of anything. It is not a choice I would ever want to have to make. But I can tell you without the tiniest quibble or question that I would absolutely want my husband to make a similar decision, should I be the one incapacitated. She did not abandon him to a health facility. She found a man she's known since kindergarten who was willing to share his married life with her and her disabled husband. Wow, I hope my ds can grow up to be such a caring, unselfish man. I would assume she is of similar age as her disabled spouse, I can tell you mid 40s and 50s is not dead. My dh had some health issues this summer, he's not the same, but he's not disabled. My needs as a wife/woman/mother have been put on the shelf for the time being. If I had little kids I would have probably broken by now. I can't imagine years of watching the man you loved, bore children with, and watched suffer not remember you. She was not haughtily out looking for someone to fall into bed with, she found someone who loved her for what she has right now, a family and a disabled spouse. He accepted the whole package. She is still honoring the "in sickness and in health", imo. Bravo, I say. Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Nothing was cryptic; PP claimed he was not the same person, then proceeded to refer to him as the same person, which he is. He's a sadly disabled man who's been abandoned by his wife because of his disability. She hasn't abandoned him. The article says she visits him several times a week. She still cares for him, oversees his living situation, and tries to give him what he needs to be safe and happy. (For example, carefully arranging his room in the new care facility to be completely identical to the old.) It is crystal clear in the article that she regards him as her responsibility for life. How would his life be different if they were still married? ...It wouldn't. Long before she divorced him, they stopped interacting the way married people do. All of that was long gone. She can't tell him her troubles or ask his advice. He can't keep track of what's going on with her or the kids. They can't share the dailyness of life together because he's not safe to live at home. He can't parent. They can't be physically intimate. It doesn't sound as if he has any ability to feel romantic towards her. He is more like her child than her husband. There is no more that he could have, if she hadn't remarried. There is no piece of their relationship that was taken away by the divorce- it was all taken away by his injury. She is maintaining the relationship they are able to have, which is not a spousal relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 She left him because of the disability, and stuffed him in a group home. Split hairs as you will. He was in the home well before they divorced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edelweiss Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Scarlett-- Is there room on your spaceship? I think that the whole situation is sad. I see nothing admirable about that woman. It is sad how marriage vows hold so little regard for many in our culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Who knew so many marriage vows don't include the words "for better or worse." Jenny raises her hand. My own vows did not include those words, because we wrote our own vows that would be meaningful to us (well, and stole a few lines from Danny Elfman). Of all of the weddings I've attended, only one ceremony included those words. And that couple is now divorced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 If he can't participate in the marriage, is there *really* a marriage? I am just amazed at how some of you want as many people as possible to suffer as much as possible because of some alleged moral code. Who EVER said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I don't see what is so terrible about it. She didn't abandon him, and he has continued to be a loved, included member of their family. :confused: FAR be it from me to judge the actions or emotions of those who find themselves caring for brain-damaged spouses. :iagree: I can't judge this woman at all. I have no idea what it is like to live her life with the challenges she has faced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Thank you for this wise, thoughtful BTDT post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnsinkableKristen Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Oh Eliana - I am so thankful you posted. You have such a level and gracious point of view. I can see that your wisdom has grown from hardship. I always appreciate hearing from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Thank you for this wise, thoughtful BTDT post. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana -- Thank you for sharing. Yes, as my dh said earlier it is 'complicated.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana, Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us. You honor us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana, Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us. You honor us. :iagree: Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Oh Eliana - I am so thankful you posted. You have such a level and gracious point of view. I can see that your wisdom has grown from hardship. I always appreciate hearing from you. Eliana -- Thank you for sharing. Yes, as my dh said earlier it is 'complicated.' Eliana, Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us. You honor us. Agreed on all counts. It always makes the day a little more civilized and gracious when Eliana posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Agreed on all counts. It always makes the day a little more civilized and gracious when Eliana posts. Could not agree more. Thank you for sharing, Eliana, and with the grace you always exhibit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Eliana -- Thank you for sharing. Yes, as my dh said earlier it is 'complicated.' :iagree: Eliana, thank you for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 FTR, I don't think ANY of us think this is any of this is an easy situation. I think it would be DEVASTATING to lose who your spouse was and make the hard choice of staying and taking care of them. BUT IMO it is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My hubby and I just discussed this and think it was one of most beautiful and compasionate stories that we have ever heard. I put in the request that if he ever needed to find another spouse and they would care of me that the woman read so that she could read to me. I think my hubby would be content just to be loved and cared for and to be part of the family. :iagree: I'm with you. Even the reading part. Dh and I are very committed to each other. We have been from the moment we laid eyes on each other. That very moment. But, if I was like Robert in the story, I would certainly want my dh to live a very fulfilled life. And he says the same for me. I think it's sad that this thread reveals so many....nevermind. Life is too short to judge other people like that. We all muddle through the best we can and hope at the end we've done the majority of things right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Oh Eliana - I am so thankful you posted. You have such a level and gracious point of view. I can see that your wisdom has grown from hardship. I always appreciate hearing from you. :iagree: totally. I always learn something from your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My thought is that in biblical times a man in this situation could take a second wife with no questions asked. I think today extending that courtesy to women too makes perfect sense. This seems a loving solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I think it's sad that this thread reveals so many....nevermind.. I think both sides feel this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Thank you Eliana. I've been watching this thread not sure how to post. Thank you for sharing your story. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 :iagree: That thought occurred to me as well. :001_huh: Me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 FTR, I don't think ANY of us think this is any of this is an easy situation. I think it would be DEVASTATING to lose who your spouse was and make the hard choice of staying and taking care of them. BUT IMO it is right. How is she not caring for him. He is getting at least the same level of care he had before the divorce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My thought is that in biblical times a man in this situation could take a second wife with no questions asked. I think today extending that courtesy to women too makes perfect sense. This seems a loving solution. I think we (American society) still see gender bias in these situations. A man is assumed to "need" a wife in a way that a woman is not assumed to "need" a husband. I dare say that a man may not be judged as harshly. And, yes, the word "judge" is appropriate here. Eliana, thank you for your insightful post. This is a way more complicated situation than "if you agree with this horrible woman you are WRONG and if you disagree you are RIGHT." WAAAY more complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 How is she not caring for him. He is getting at least the same level of care he had before the divorce. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 But I can tell you without the tiniest quibble or question that I would absolutely want my husband to make a similar decision, should I be the one incapacitated. :iagree: The disabled ex-husband doesn't lose anything by her decision. He has another family member to take care of him, and no less wife than he had before she remarried. I don't see any harm being done anywhere, except to the notion of marriage as something that a person can only do once with one. But the preserving the importance of the abstract ideal doesn't matter as much as taking care of real people and their feelings and lives and dreams and goals. All of these people are being kind to each other, to who they each really are right now. That's not just okay, that's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie in OR Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Scarlett-- Is there room on your spaceship? I think that the whole situation is sad. I see nothing admirable about that woman. It is sad how marriage vows hold so little regard for many in our culture. I'm coming, too! I don't post much anymore but I just can't pass on this. My MIL has been a quadriplegic for nearly 30 years. My FIL gave up his medical practice to care for her full-time. This year marks their 50th anniversary. Has it been very difficult? Heck yeah. But it has also been a lesson in character and perseverance for their kids and now, their grandkids. It was one of the reasons I wanted to marry my dh...I knew this was the role-model he had and respected and that I could also trust that I was marrying a man with similar character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Eliana, Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us. You honor us. Indeed she does. Thank you Eliana. Affectionately, Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think we (American society) still see gender bias in these situations. A man is assumed to "need" a wife in a way that a woman is not assumed to "need" a husband. I dare say that a man may not be judged as harshly. And, yes, the word "judge" is appropriate here. I don't know... Wasn't Terry Schievo's (sp) husband held pretty low in public opinion because he already had another wife and some kids before she died? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Eliana, :hugs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I don't know... Wasn't Terry Schievo's (sp) husband held pretty low in public opinion because he already had another wife and some kids before she died? Well, he also wanted to starve her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think we (American society) still see gender bias in these situations. A man is assumed to "need" a wife in a way that a woman is not assumed to "need" a husband. I dare say that a man may not be judged as harshly. I was just lamenting to a friend how it seems those of us with wombs are somehow supposed to be able to withstand more suffering than those without. Different situation, but similar bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trez Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I believe that God will be the judge with respect to whether the people in this story made the right decision. Thank God I have never been in their shoes and I cannot say with 100% certainty what I would do. It is not up to me to judge.....God doesn't need my help. Our sermon in church today was with regards to the judgement of others using Romans 13:1-12 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgement seat of God. This was timely for me in many ways and I just thought I'd throw this out there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I'm coming, too! I don't post much anymore but I just can't pass on this. My MIL has been a quadriplegic for nearly 30 years. My FIL gave up his medical practice to care for her full-time. This year marks their 50th anniversary. Has it been very difficult? Heck yeah. But it has also been a lesson in character and perseverance for their kids and now, their grandkids. It was one of the reasons I wanted to marry my dh...I knew this was the role-model he had and respected and that I could also trust that I was marrying a man with similar character. That's amazing. I'm sure it has made a huge impact on the future generations of your family that your FIL did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I was just lamenting to a friend how it seems those of us with wombs are somehow supposed to be able to withstand more suffering than those without. Because we are the "weaker sex"? Ya got me... Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanaryMelody Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) And like Kristen, I'll take care of DH no matter who he is. But, here's the thing: She IS taking care of him. Personally, I suspect she may well be more capable of taking better care of him now than she was as a grieving, lonely not-quite-widow. I sounds to me as though these new relationships create a more loving and nurtuting situation for the first husband, rather than depriving him of anything. Then let me clarify. I'll take care of my DH as his wife no matter who he is. DH married me "till death do you part". He deserves that commitment, that same level of love and fidelity as the first day of marriage no matter what circumstances we are given. This is our personal belief in that we made these vows before God and it is a 3-way commitment. It would not be easy and I'm not perfect. But I would strive each and every day to honor God in my marriage regardless of "who" DH was. Edited January 30, 2012 by cbmrj777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamajag Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well, yeah. Except it likely wouldn't happen in our case due to living wills. We wouldn't want to be a burden to one another. There is nothing disgusting about the situation. He gets to see his kids and he is taken care of by his former wife. Who are we to judge them? Robert's brother signed for her to continue being his guardian, so obviously the family has no issues. Love conquers all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Because we are the "weaker sex"? Ya got me... Jane Until we get irritated at least. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I can't get over how everyone is using religion to judge this situation, when in Biblical times a man could easily take a second wife if the first wife was injured or somehow unable to fufill her duties. God seemed fine with that scenario. This seems to be a modern version of the same situation. Seems God would feel the same way about this that he did about that. Technically they are divorced, but she is caring for him the same way she did when married and obviously considers him part of her family still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I can't get over how everyone is using religion to judge this situation, when in Biblical times a man could easily take a second wife if the first wife was injured or somehow unable to fufill her duties. God seemed fine with that scenario. This seems to be a modern version of the same situation. Seems God would feel the same way about this that he did about that. Technically they are divorced, but she is caring for him the same way she did when married and obviously considers him part of her family still. Katie, there are a lot of things God allowed under the old covenant that are not allowed under the new covenant. Divorce, for example. Moses allowed the men to 'put away' their wives, because their hearts were hard. Jesus said a man is not to 'put away' his wife, except for in the case of adultery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thank you Eliana for sharing your miracle with us. What an inspiring post! I have a BIL who has a TBI. He was not married so there is no question of divorce. But he would be incapable of marriage at this point and it has been over 30 years now. I look to the people caring for very sick people as examples. But I am not judging this woman. I think to call the first husband as working as an 11 year old is somewhat misleading. In some ways, he may be like an 11 year old. But in many ways, he isn't like any healthy person at all. That is what TBI does in so many cases. I think we will see more of these type of cases with people having children at older ages. I think maybe it would have been different for her if her children were high school age or older. I know that with only one child I am fully responsible for, and she being 15, I can and do take care of her myself a lot of the time. It certainly was much, much harder when I had more and they were all a lot younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Katie, there are a lot of things God allowed under the old covenant that are not allowed under the new covenant. Divorce, for example. Moses allowed the men to 'put away' their wives, because their hearts were hard. Jesus said a man is not to 'put away' his wife, except for in the case of adultery. right, but can you find me where Jesus said you couldn't have a second wife? Or in this case, a second husband? Because that seems to be what this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinlunachick Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thank you, Eliana, for sharing your story. Can I just veer a tiny bit OT to say that I take issue with all this "dumping him in a nursing home" talk? My mother worked for nearly 30 years in various nursing homes. Yes, some are not so great. Yes, some people suffer. But some homeschoolers are poorly socialized, too. :tongue_smilie: For many people (patients AND family), nursing homes and skilled nursing facilities provide a level of care that is not possible in-home. Sometimes, it's a better choice for the family members for various reasons. It does no one any good to think of choosing that placement for their loved one as "dumping" or "stuffing". :confused: I'd imagine that very few families *want* to cut and run from their loved ones. They simply need help. The article linked in the OP mentioned that Robert was sometimes violent. I know several women (some family members) who have endured physical violence and abuse at the hands of their formerly loving, caring husbands as they suffered with Alzheimers. They shouldn't have to do that, and they shouldn't be seen as "dumping" their husbands simply because they chose a placement that protected their physical (or mental) safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Riiiiight, because the ministry of Jesus was all about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. Oh, wait.... My dh and I love each other. We have discussed it. We have living wills. We think we would stay married and take care of one another, no matter what. But, we have also seen real life examples of that not working for reasons beyond love and a deep commitment to each other. So, I am just not willing to call it disgusting or immoral or any ofthe other pejoratives that have been thrown around here. Thanks for sharing your journey, Eliana. :grouphug: Edited January 30, 2012 by Mrs Mungo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 DH read the story and we talked about it. We came to these conclusions: It's incredibly complicated -- to us. Neither of us would re-marry. We would remain married to each other and care for the other person as we should with the help of family, G-d-willing. I asked him about female influence for the girls, and he pointed out we have four daughters, three amazing nieces, our daughters have an amazing aunt, and we have as family friends two women with whom we have been friends (me, for all of my life). For male influence, my son has two wonderful brothers-in-law, and an incredible uncle. I do think that there are probably as many ways to handle the situation as there are people who read this thread. I was thinking about this earlier when someone mentioned the kids 'needing' a male figure in the home. There have been many many kids raised by single parents and the extended family and community help fill in the void. Just as you mentioned Mariann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Scarlett-- Is there room on your spaceship? I think that the whole situation is sad. I see nothing admirable about that woman. It is sad how marriage vows hold so little regard for many in our culture. I know. And so many keep praising her for continuing to 'take care of him'. That is the LEAST she could do. That is what most of us would do for a dog that became disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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