elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Which phrase do you think works best, The one in the book or the movie? Where Gandalf is on the bridge in Khazad-Dum facing the Balrog. In the book he states, "You cannot pass." He says this three times within his brief speech. (End of Chapter 5, book 2 if you're curious) In the movie he says, "You shall not pass." after initially saying "You cannot pass". Here's a clip This is my favorite scene in the movie. My son was very disappointed today when we read this chapter. "You shall not pass" has become a running joke in our house, quoted to oblivion. :D Ian McKellen states it with such passion. I also think the word shall is a much better word choice. Shall implies it needs permission, can not sounds like a dare. So far ds has been pleased with Peter Jackson's interpretation of LotR, but this is one area where he felt the movie was superior. Which do you think was more appropriate "shall" or "cannot"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Shall Not. My son wasn't able to watch the movies. He read the books after we read The Hobbit. We've got the extended edition of all 3 movies. He watched the first half of Fellowship and just kept complaining about how it was wrong compared to the book; the book was so much better. I don't think he'll ever manage the Harry Potter movies. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I've always liked that part better in the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I prefer Shall not and think it sounds better given the scene. Tell a Balrog you cannot pass and he hits you with a blast a fire and says "prove it". Shall not indicates you will stop him from doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I prefer "shall." :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Shall Not. My son wasn't able to watch the movies. He read the books after we read The Hobbit. We've got the extended edition of all 3 movies. He watched the first half of Fellowship and just kept complaining about how it was wrong compared to the book; the book was so much better. I don't think he'll ever manage the Harry Potter movies. :lol: Don't let him watch Percy Jackson then. :tongue_smilie: We have the extended versions, so he's seen the movies before the books. Granted we're still on the Fellowship, but he's been accepting of the Jackson's take. We call it condensation of the book, not obliterating as we've seen so much of in books vs. movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I like shall not. Don't let him watch Percy Jackson then. :tongue_smilie: We have the extended versions, so he's seen the movies before the books. Granted we're still on the Fellowship, but he's been accepting of the Jackson's take. We call it condensation of the book, not obliterating as we've seen so much of in books vs. movies. There are several changes that I completely disagree with. There are changes in the first book/movie that have implications in the third and are never properly explained as a result. The first change I didn't like was Old Man Willow. You know someone is in trouble when they begin their epic by being eaten by a tree. Such a fantastic setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 I like shall not. There are several changes that I completely disagree with. There are changes in the first book/movie that have implications in the third and are never properly explained as a result. The first change I didn't like was Old Man Willow. You know someone is in trouble when they begin their epic by being eaten by a tree. Such a fantastic setup. I'll be interested to see ds's reaction as we progress. I should just schedule watching the 40,000 hours of behind the scenes footage now. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 This just shows my lack of talent for interpreting word choices. I think cannot is much more forceful than shall not. Saying he cannot pass sounds like he's thrown down the gauntlet and simply will not back down. Saying shall not makes me think of someone trying to look big by using formal language, but who in reality will buckle under pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I'll be interested to see ds's reaction as we progress. I should just schedule watching the 40,000 hours of behind the scenes footage now. :tongue_smilie: The commentary tracks are pretty cool too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohru Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I also like 'shall not', but then again, we live in America, where 'shall' is used less frequently than England, so "shall not" has much more of an impact to us Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Whatever it says in the book is better. That is all. :D I cannot bear to watch the movies. :ack2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Tolkien was rather picky about language. I knew someone who grew up in his neighborhood and he didn't like his children or the neighborhood children to use slang. So I think he meant what he wrote and he wrote what he meant. I don't care which is more melodramatic to our ear. The scene has enough drama. When my DH read the part about Gandolf falling/fighting the Balrog, he threw the book against the wall and didn't finish it for years. And while I enjoyed the movie, the books were better in all aspects (except Legolas who is better looking in the movie than I ever imagine from the description in the books oh yeah). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Tolkien was rather picky about language. I knew someone who grew up in his neighborhood and he didn't like his children or the neighborhood children to use slang. So I think he meant what he wrote and he wrote what he meant. I don't care which is more melodramatic to our ear. The scene has enough drama. When my DH read the part about Gandolf falling/fighting the Balrog, he threw the book against the wall and didn't finish it for years. The scene where they go to gather the dead is *so tense and scary* in the book. I am almost in tears every time I read it. That scene in the movie was a travesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Viggo. *sigh* Without disecting semantics, I prefer the "shall not" in the movie, but I still love the books. And Viggo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I like the 'shall not' - but I've never actually read the books. :) Surprisingly enough, DH has...LOTR and Harry Potter, other than that he hates to read lol... But I do love the movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 And while I enjoyed the movie, the books were better in all aspects (except Legolas who is better looking in the movie than I ever imagine from the description in the books oh yeah). :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Whatever it says in the book is better. That is all. :D I cannot bear to watch the movies. :ack2: I kind of feel the same way. But I've always felt like a traitor for it, so I've never admitted it until now. I much, much prefer the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsrevmeg Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 And while I enjoyed the movie, the books were better in all aspects (except Legolas who is better looking in the movie than I ever imagine from the description in the books oh yeah). You know what's weird? I think the guy playing Legolas looks more handsome and manly as a long haired elf than in his normal look. What's up with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Viggo. *sigh* Without disecting semantics, I prefer the "shall not" in the movie, but I still love the books. And Viggo. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSNative Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 You know what's weird? I think the guy playing Legolas looks more handsome and manly as a long haired elf than in his normal look. What's up with that? :iagree: Prefer shall not, but to be fair, if Ian McK. had said can not, I probably would have voted for that. That scene was just done so much better than my imagination. I also agree that the books were so much better. Occasionally a movie does it better. For example, in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, I thought the movie scene of them meeting Mr. Beaver was better than in the book. Does that make up for absolutely destroying Prince Caspian? um, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Viggo. *sigh* Without disecting semantics, I prefer the "shall not" in the movie, but I still love the books. And Viggo. We're sharing, remember. ;) We read Tolkien's bio before starting the books. I'd recommend it, it has great insight into the technical expertise of LotR. I also think the scene in the book wouldn't have had the impact (aside from losing Gandalf) had we not seen the movie. I was reading aloud yesterday and really making it dramatic. Ds loved it. I think shall rolls off the tongue a little more lyrically. Does anyone know who changed it? Was it McKellen, Jackson, scriptwriter? I did look and we'll finish book 1 in time to watch the behind the scenes over Christmas break. Good thing we're taking two weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooh bear Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The scene where they go to gather the dead is *so tense and scary* in the book. I am almost in tears every time I read it. That scene in the movie was a travesty. Have you seen the extended edition? It adds a bit more to the scene, and does have more feeling to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooh bear Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I think I have read LOTR at least twice a year, for the past 20 years. You could say that I know the books inside and out. At first I did not like the movies that much, but the more I watch them, the more I see them as an interpretation of the books. I was upset that they did not include Tom Bombadill, but after a while, you can see how Tom would disrupt the flow of the movie. Movie goers generally like the movie to flow, not side track. In a book you can take side tracks, and still get where you want to go, but in a movie, this would add hours. The only thing I truly do not like about the movies is Frodo; he is such a weak, bumbling fool. He is a lot stronger in the books. The Blu-Ray extended editions are wonderful. The scenes that they cut from the original add so much more to the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I think that Shall Not is far stronger, and I prefer it. Also, these are my favorite books of all time, and I think that the movie was reasonably true to them. The worst mess up was the ents. They moved too fast and were too spindly by far in the movie. I pictured them kind of wading through the earth, not striding with big twiggy feet. I also was disappointed with the appearance of the hobbits generally. They should have been stout, and shorter than the dwarves, and quieter than the elves. Legolas was awesome, as was Gandalf, as was Galadriel. I LOVED the scene were everyone, led by Aragorn, bowed before the hobbits. The transformation of that king out from under the sway of evil was wonderful, and him as a king 'I know how to defend my own keep!' was outstanding. I was impressed that they did as well as they did in conveying the spirit of the homes of the elves and of the Shire. All in all, I expected to be quite disappointed with the movies but loved them. And they hooked DH on the books, which he had never read. He read them over and over for years after he saw the first of the movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I kind of feel the same way. But I've always felt like a traitor for it, so I've never admitted it until now. I much, much prefer the books. Ah--a soul sister! :lol: I *wanted* to love the movies. I'm ok with some of the changes, such as the short amount of time between when Bilbo leaves and Gandalf tells Frodo that his Ring is the One Ring and he has to get out of Dodge. I'm ok with no Tom Bombadil. I'm even ok with leaving Frodo and the others back at Hobbiton instead of clearing out Saruman and putting things back in order. I'm not ok with Arwen the Warrior Princess, with the One Sword being kept on display at Rivendell, with Gimli trying to whack the One Ring with his axe, definitely not with the terrible treatment of Faramir. I'm not ok with the way Aragorn is portrayed as being unsure of his being a King waiting for the right time to Return. So there. Hmph. :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynyel Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Don't let him watch Percy Jackson then. :tongue_smilie: We have the extended versions, so he's seen the movies before the books. Granted we're still on the Fellowship, but he's been accepting of the Jackson's take. We call it condensation of the book, not obliterating as we've seen so much of in books vs. movies. UGH on the Percy Jackson.... dd and I were sooooo disappointed! I read all of them myself even! I prefer shall as well. It is more elegant :) ETA: I love the books and I love the movies. I didn't expect the movies to be exactly like the books, jeez o pete but the movies would have been even longer! Not that I would have minded. I have separated the movies from the books in my head. To my brain they are apples and oranges... just sitting in the same bowl :D We have listened to the audio books in the van, all of them... we want to do it again! After Christmas, we like the Christmas music on the radio! Edited December 10, 2011 by Mynyel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 a few years ago our family went thru a stage where we watched the movies over and over. During that time, we went out to Hollywood, one night I went to a play by myself and in the audience was the actor that played Frodo (I forget his name). When I got back to the room and told my kids, boy were they bummed that they had not gone to the play with me p.s. I like SHALL NOT better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Shall not. As in he will absolutely not allow it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Cornelia Snook Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I prefer Shall not. I read the books right before the first movie came out (I like to get my own impression of books before a movie skews things). I haven't re-read them, and though I enjoyed the movies (mostespeciallyLegolas), I can't watch them again. I think it's because the story stresses me out!! I haven't watched them with my ODS (who is 8). Both the films and the books are so intense. I guess you could say I got a little too into them and now I have LOTR PTSD! Agree with the consensus on the Percy Jackson movie. Completely forgettable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Here's a clip This is my favorite scene in the movie. Which do you think was more appropriate "shall" or "cannot"? I think "shall not" is more appropriate than "cannot." Gandalf is saying "I will not permit you to pass" not "you are unable to pass." Your favorite scene is my 2nd favorite scene ;) My favorite is Aragorn's speech - "but it is not this day!" *I MELT* and get chills every. time. I. see. it. *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 I think "shall not" is more appropriate than "cannot." Gandalf is saying "I will not permit you to pass" not "you are unable to pass." Your favorite scene is my 2nd favorite scene ;) My favorite is Aragorn's speech - "but it is not this day!" *I MELT* and get chills every. time. I. see. it. *sigh* Oh, there is that scene. turn it up and melt accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Somehow this thread has lead me to watch Youtube clips of LOTR set to music - KungFu Fighting, We will Rock You, Legalos I'm a Barbie Girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Somehow this thread has lead me to watch Youtube clips of LOTR set to music - KungFu Fighting, We will Rock You, Legalos I'm a Barbie Girl. :lol: :lol: cultural relevance is so important. Have you encountered ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Shall not is better. Can not sounds like "Neener, neener, neener!" :001_tt2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Somehow this thread has lead me to watch Youtube clips of LOTR set to music - KungFu Fighting, We will Rock You, Legalos I'm a Barbie Girl. You've just GOT to see the one of Aragorn fighting to "Eye of the Tiger." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyinND Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Shall not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I prefer "shall." :) :iagree: Plus, it reminds me of the Black Knight scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail ("None Shall Pass"). :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 'Can not' is a stronger word choice. In my opinion, and it has always seemed this way to me, Gandalf is making the stronger word choice because he personally can not allow this to happen. At this moment he is what stands between the terror of the world and the dear friends who are vital to survival of their age. He's working himself up to the impossible feat by making defeat impossible. Frankly, I would be disappointed if he used the lighter 'shall not.' Future tense. bah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Shall not. As in he will absolutely not allow it to happen. I think I prefer the movie version. As Remudamom says-it puts the burden on Gandalf. He won't permit it to happen. The book version implies that the Balrog doesn't have the power to pass. Or that he is not as powerful as Gandalf and therefore cannot. I like the shall not as it makes Gandalf a more active participant than a passive. That said-shall not is more of an order or a threat. Cannot is more of a warning. Gandalf is more of a warning first kind of a guy rather than a threatening kind of a guy (at least in how I read him). Which is why in the end I only think I prefer the movie version-I'm not totally sold either way. (Yikes-was that wishy washy enough?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Ah--a soul sister! :lol: I'm not ok with the way Aragorn is portrayed as being unsure of his being a King waiting for the right time to Return. So there. Hmph. :auto: I am not ok with the wimpy Aragon of the movies, In my imagination he was a lot more muscular and rugged, after all, he had been roaming around the countryside as a ranger for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 'Can not' is a stronger word choice. In my opinion, and it has always seemed this way to me, Gandalf is making the stronger word choice because he personally can not allow this to happen. At this moment he is what stands between the terror of the world and the dear friends who are vital to survival of their age. He's working himself up to the impossible feat by making defeat impossible. Frankly, I would be disappointed if he used the lighter 'shall not.' Future tense. bah. Interesting perspective. I wonder if some of this has to do with individual experiences with the word? Can not is something you hear or say daily, especially as a child or with small children. You can not have a cookie now, You can not go play in the cold. It's almost too common. Shall, otoh, is Biblical in proportion. I first read it in the bible, and in my connotation Shall holds more power. Shall is not a common everyday word. I think I prefer the movie version. As Remudamom says-it puts the burden on Gandalf. He won't permit it to happen. The book version implies that the Balrog doesn't have the power to pass. Or that he is not as powerful as Gandalf and therefore cannot. I like the shall not as it makes Gandalf a more active participant than a passive. That's how I see it. I am not ok with the wimpy Aragon of the movies, In my imagination he was a lot more muscular and rugged, after all, he had been roaming around the countryside as a ranger for years. Aragorn, wimpy. :svengo: I see him with an inner strength, a quiet aloof character, used to watching a situation before participating in it. Of course, I haven't finished the books yet, and it's Viggo!!! They couldn't have had him take off his shirt and show off his muscles (pauses, imagines, :001_smile:, moves on), well they could have... I appreciate reading all these comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I am not ok with the wimpy Aragon of the movies, In my imagination he was a lot more muscular and rugged, after all, he had been roaming around the countryside as a ranger for years. WIMPY??? The most gorgeous, strong, effective man in the whole movie series? REALLY? :willy_nilly::svengo::thumbdown: (Although I have to admit that the books made him a lot older--in his 80's or so I believe? But still a strong, effective fighter--but with the wisdom of the ages. Having said that, considering that in the books he also lives for a very long time (I'm thinking 170 years or something like that?), characterizing him as someone who has lived through about half of his earthly life would have been more accurate. But you could say the same for the hobbits.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WistfulRidge Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Personally, I prefer "shall not" for reasons others have mentioned... but then again, I think that Ian McKellen did such an amazing job with that scene that he could have said absolute gibberish and I still would have thought it was amazing. I love the books so much it hurts. They're kind of like a second "bible" in this house. That said I was actually extremely pleased with how the movies turned out - and by movies let me clarify that I mean the extended versions. The theater versions were okay but they lacked a lot of what makes LOTR LOTR, ykwim? The extended versions are definitely the way to go. The only thing I was ever really unhappy about was how they portrayed Arwen, but I can live with that and I can see why they chose to make her role a much more active one. I also would have preferred a stronger Frodo, but honestly I think Merry, Pippin, and Sam were done to such perfection that having a bit of a washy Frodo can be forgiven. As for favorite scenes... I love the battle for Minas Tirith, especially once Rohan arrives. There is something about that charge that just makes my heart stop and the tears well up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gailmegan Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Seeing as I am a complete book snob who refuses to even watch the movies, I must choose Tolkien's words. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 my dh has read the book, MANY, MANY times as in once a year since he was a teen and he voted for" shall not "as done in the movie I have not read the books but my favorite scene in the movies is towards the end of the 2nd movie, the one of Sam's speech about "the good in the world". I get teary eyed during that speech each time I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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