Kids, "GROUP work", and Introverts...

[Heather in Neverland]

So my ds homeschooled exclusively for k-5. Then in 6th grade we came here and he has been doing school part time and homeschooling part time. Now that he is in 8th grade he is down to only two subjects at home and the rest is at school. The plan was for him to go to school full time starting next year for high school.

 

But

 

He hates it. Well, not exactly "hates" it... it's just that group learning isn't his "thing" so mostly he is irritated by it. :tongue_smilie:

 

The school is VERY big on "cooperative" learning so they do all these group projects. In his social studies class he spent about 4 weeks working on a project for the "European Fair" which ended up being one of those big tri-fold boards with info about Norway (the country he drew randomly with his partner).

 

4 weeks on NORWAY??

 

No offense to any Norwegians on the boards but really? There is so much he could learn about European geography and history but he didn't "draw" those other countries ... he got Norway.

 

And really he's just an introvert. He said to me today:

 

"If they stopped all the group work, cutesy activities, and the turn-to-your-partner-and-discuss stuff we could be done with school by noon. I just want them to give me the stuff they want me to know. I will read the books, do the work and teach myself and if I need their help I'll ask for it."

 

He goes through the motions of school but honestly, he would rather not. So I am thinking I should just let him take online classes and study topics on his own, etc. rather than continue on with regular school. IOW, go back to homeschooling.

 

But people say to me "But he NEEDS to learn to work on group projects! That is an important skill for life!" But my thinking is Really? Maybe he ends up going into a field where his work is more solitary???? He does do other things in group settings...hobbies, sports, etc.

 

I am rambling... I guess my questions are: Do we NEED to do group projects? Do we NEED to learn in a group so we can function in society? Will I be doing him a disservice if I give in to his introverted-ness and let him take online classes instead?

[Carol in Cal.]

It depends, I think, on how much cooperating and negotiating he does in those other settings. I was concerned about this issue as well, as DD really does much better in a quiet learning environment. I addressed it by having her participate in a class that was not heavily academic but did involve some group work, when she was in 5th or 6th grade. The class was divided into 4-5 groups of 3-4 people. The class studied geography and geographical features as a group, and then each small group designed, populated, and dealt with their own country. They had to negotiate the optimization of their population, natural resources, defense, products, and diplomacy. There was a UN involved to handle negotiations between the different countries. It was a great, balanced intro to that kind of work.

 

In middle school she was in a robotics team, and they designed, built, programmed and optimized a Lego robot to perform a series of tasks. They also worked together on a research project that they presented to judges. This was fairly sophisticated, and it was really interesting to me to see my quiet little girl debate and provide significant leadership in her team--she was the only girl, and she never let that shut her down.

 

Now she is in a brick and mortar high school where they do group work all the time. She delegates and is delegated to, works together and separately, and really gets in there and plans and debates.

 

I have learned, myself, from observing all of this, that this is a completely different skillset than just getting along with people. Being direct AND diplomatic, being logical AND taking everyone's opinions into account, being able to stand up for your ideas AND to compromise--these are skills that are going to benefit her for the rest of her life.

 

I don't think that your son needs to have every class involve them, but he will benefit from learning them somehow.

[Rosie_0801]

It sounds like your boy is objecting less to the group work and more to the insulting, time wasting busywork. If the group project was to build a play kitchen for the kinder kids, I'd guess he'd be complaining less.

 

Anyone who doesn't plan to spend their entire life alone needs to practice working in a group. Some people prefer to practice that skill somewhere that matters and you say your boy is already doing that.

 

Rosie

Edited September 26, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[joannqn]

double post

Edited September 26, 2011 by joannqn

[joannqn]

You don't have to be an introvert to hate group work. I'm an extrovert who has had so many negative group experiences that I hate it with a passion now.

 

I think group work is best left to teams you've chosen to be a part of...where all of the members are equally motivated and involved.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It sounds like your boy is objecting less to the group work and more to the insulting, time wasting busywork. If the group project was to build a play kitchen for the kinder kids, I'd guess he'd be complaining less.

 

Anyone who doesn't plan to spend their entire life alone needs to practice working in a group. Some people prefer to practice that skill somewhere that matters and you say your boy is already doing that.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

[Carol in Cal.]

The other thing about the Norway project is that although general knowlege is really valuable, a project like that teaches other things--how to study in more depth, how to work on a project with multiple deadlines, etc.

 

Honestly, I loved learning like that, although I didn't do it in groups. I was one of those kids who would have done great with unschooling, I think, except probably in math. And perhaps handwriting. I still am far more interested in Peru and New Zealand than any of their neighbors, because of studying them thoroughly for big school projects.

[Sputterduck]

As an adult, I've love the group projects I've chosen to be a part of. I hated, no loathed!, group work as a kid. The thing with the kid-in-school version is that it's artificial. It's forced and basically a time waster. I bet if they could give him something where he was working as a team for something important to him that was more efficiently done as a group and he had a group where he truly meshed with his groupmates, he'd have a different outlook.

[Night Elf]

And really he's just an introvert. He said to me today:

 

"If they stopped all the group work, cutesy activities, and the turn-to-your-partner-and-discuss stuff we could be done with school by noon. I just want them to give me the stuff they want me to know. I will read the books, do the work and teach myself and if I need their help I'll ask for it."

 

Well, I completely agree with him. I absolutely hate group work, and that was very bad for me. As an education major at my school, I had group work in all my classes. Even the online education classes include group work. Do you know how frustrating it is to do a paper and/or a project with someone who takes days to email a response back?? ARGH! And some of the instructors ask to not be involved in the politics of the group work because as future teachers, we have to go into the job knowing how to work cooperatively with our team. I have never been in a group where all students enthusiastically participate. Generally, it's only 1 or 2 of us, out of a usual group size of 4, that work. The other members just don't care. They have been the type of students that are perfectly content with a letter grade of C because it's a passing grade and they don't want to put anymore effort into working than just getting that C. I had one instructor say that a group could come to him to ask that a particular person be removed from the group, but that the group effort grade would be lowered. Ugh, see me going on? Does the cooperative efforts of a group of teachers have an impact on their job? If I'm in a team with someone who doesn't do what they are supposed to do, will my job be criticized or jeopardized? That can happen with grades for class. I got stuck doing 2 projects because my partners (two different classes) dropped the ball. One girl laughed when I told her I was up all night trying to finish it. She told me that I shouldn't have worked that hard because the work we did was good enough. Sorry, but I don't do "good enough". She was happy though. Our project was the only A she got in that class. grrr...

 

I don't think group work experiences are helpful for learning how to be effective in a group. It's learning how to deal with people who don't pull their weight. Or learning how to deal with people who try to take over the whole project and do it their own way.

[celticmom]

I hate group projects. However, my teammates were generally very glad to have me on the team. That pretty much sums up why I hate group projects. :glare: I had one partner who even tried to get out of the final presentation. I threatened to sit on him and I was pregnant at the time.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think group work experiences are helpful for learning how to be effective in a group. It's learning how to deal with people who don't pull their weight. Or learning how to deal with people who try to take over the whole project and do it their own way.

 

There is some truth to this, and it matches my experiences pretty well.

 

However, I've seen that for my DD, a sophomore in high school, it's something else again. She has learned to delegate, to negotiate, to ask others to do work, to step up and volunteer herself. I am impressed with both her assertiveness and her diplomacy, both of which I wish I had had more of as far forward as senior labs in college. This group work for her is working out exactly as it is supposed to, and it's teaching her skills that are going to be immesely valuable throughout her academics and career.

[Catherine]

My job is the perfect example. I am a hospital-based physician, and collaboration is a vital part of our work. Within the past one week, I've been faced twice with situations in which my colleagues were irresponsible-causing not only potential risk to patients but also inconvenience to multiple colleagues. I wish I had learned, somewhere, how to diplomatically handle these situations-how to honestly confront someone who is not pulling their weight, without whining, losing my temper, or responding to their defensiveness or anger.

 

Now am I convinced that group projects in school are the ideal environment in which to learn those skills? Absolutely not. When my sons were in early elementary school, there were independent and group projects galore and I don't think it taught them anything. ITA with your son, Heather, that much of that is time-wasting. OTOH, Carol's daughter's experience is what I'd really wish kids could have, because learning how to work together, co-operatively, is vitally important.

 

I really think that a skilled teacher could do some advance coaching so that the participants were aware of the common pitfalls, could approach other students, or the teacher, if things weren't going well. And IMO one group project per year is probably enough, as it is a far less efficient means of learning material. What the student is learning is more...how to function in a group.

[SeekingHim77]

While we all need to work in a group activity, it sounds like he's already had enough of it. He's learned how to do it, had the experience and is ready to move into a more specialized way of learning that suits his unique personality and learning style. I think it's great that he's so focused!:001_smile:

[snickelfritz]

I think there are separate issues here.

 

As to a solitary career..... What is he interested in? I'm having trouble thinking of many careers that are solitary. My dh and I have engineering degrees. We find Dilbert hilarious, because it's so true. Group work was HUGE in our majors. Companies wanted to hire people who could work together and they always asked lots of questions about overcoming obstacles in groups.

 

Dh has worked up to management. All he does now is work with people. Customers, suppliers, employees, competitors, etc.... His problem employees are the ones who can't work together. We're talking the technical, computer, and drafting jobs that many solitary people might pick.

 

Your son will face it in college (And just because it's college, don't think everyone pulls their own weight. Some of them are just better manipulators for having schmoozed by so long!).

 

All that to say: I think the teamwork issue wouldn't be enough, if it was the only reason I was picking school. You can get teamwork practice other places.

Edited September 26, 2011 by snickelfritz

[Mama Geek]

You don't have to be an introvert to hate group work. I'm an extrovert who has had so many negative group experiences that I hate it with a passion now.

 

I think group work is best left to teams you've chosen to be a part of...where all of the members are equally motivated and involved.

 

I've only read this far so far, but just wanted to comment on this. This isn't real life either, IME In a business situation people are all motivated because of wanting to keep their jobs, but you still have some who are good at what they do some that are bad at what they do, and different levels of motivation. You do have to learn to deal with others with much different personalities.

[Mama Geek]

My job is the perfect example. I am a hospital-based physician, and collaboration is a vital part of our work. Within the past one week, I've been faced twice with situations in which my colleagues were irresponsible-causing not only potential risk to patients but also inconvenience to multiple colleagues. I wish I had learned, somewhere, how to diplomatically handle these situations-how to honestly confront someone who is not pulling their weight, without whining, losing my temper, or responding to their defensiveness or anger.

 

Now am I convinced that group projects in school are the ideal environment in which to learn those skills? Absolutely not. When my sons were in early elementary school, there were independent and group projects galore and I don't think it taught them anything. ITA with your son, Heather, that much of that is time-wasting. OTOH, Carol's daughter's experience is what I'd really wish kids could have, because learning how to work together, co-operatively, is vitally important.

 

I really think that a skilled teacher could do some advance coaching so that the participants were aware of the common pitfalls, could approach other students, or the teacher, if things weren't going well. And IMO one group project per year is probably enough, as it is a far less efficient means of learning material. What the student is learning is more...how to function in a group.

 

:iagree: I have had the same experiences in engineering and I agree that the school setting may not be the best place to learn that.

 

I think there are separate issues here.

 

As to a solitary career..... What is he interested in? I'm having trouble thinking of many careers that are solitary. My dh and I have engineering degrees. We find Dilbert hilarious, because it's so true. Group work was HUGE in our majors. Companies wanted to hire people who could work together and they always asked lots of questions about overcoming obstacles in groups.

 

Dh has worked up to management. All he does now is work with people. Customers, suppliers, employees, competitors, etc.... His problem employees are the ones who can't work together. We're talking the technical, computer, and drafting jobs that many solitary people might pick.

 

Your son will face it in college (And just because it's college, don't think everyone pulls their own weight. Some of them are just better manipulators for having schmoozed by so long!).

 

All that to say: I think the teamwork issue wouldn't be enough, if it was the only reason I was picking school. You can get teamwork practice other places.

 

:iagree:

Edited September 26, 2011 by Mama Geek

[Chris in VA]

Heather, I was just thinking--

Do you suppose some of the heavy emphasis on group work in your school is a function of it being set in an Asian culture? IOW, is getting along in a group and cooperating a strong cultural value there? I have no idea, really, but it seems to me Asian cultures tend to encourage this. I'm not saying that's all that is going on, just wondering if it's a part of it.

 

I agree with the other posters that he could learn those skills via a hobby like Robotics or Scouts or something. I have found that group discussions are valuable at the rhetoric level, so you might want to continue something for history or science, or lit, which all tend to be discussion-oriented. It was hard to give my ds22 the group experience in that direction. There's so much benefit from hearing other people's thoughts and ideas and bouncing yours off of them. But as for actual group projects, I just think you could do that somewhere else.

 

And, honestly, if he wants to be HS'd, I'd do it somehow. Just make sure of the above, and keep close tabs on his independent work so he doesn't get bogged down or in a rut. IOW, stay engaged with him, no matter how independent his lessons become.

[5of5]

I could write a long essay on this! :glare:

 

While it is true that you often work in some kind of teams in business, IME they don't much resemble the school team projects I had to do.

 

There are many differences. One already mentioned is that business teams are better motivated. Another huge difference is that team members have pre-set roles: design, production, sales, etc. IRL, on a business team, people aren't interchangeable; it is not left to the team to split up the roles. It's also not that easy for one team member to pick up the slack of another because the roles are distinct.

 

Yet another very significant difference is that there is a clear "chain of command". You might think that the teacher serves that role in school, but IME the teacher assigns the project and then doesn't provide any counseling or support to help with conflicts.

 

I agree with those who said that effective assertiveness and negotiation skills are important, but are these skills actually taught as part of the team project? It seems like it is left to the students to sort through things on their own.

[Farrar]

It sounds like your boy is objecting less to the group work and more to the insulting, time wasting busywork. If the group project was to build a play kitchen for the kinder kids, I'd guess he'd be complaining less.

 

Anyone who doesn't plan to spend their entire life alone needs to practice working in a group. Some people prefer to practice that skill somewhere that matters and you say your boy is already doing that.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

 

I think it's very worthwhile, especially for introverts, to learn to work in a group. I think the vast majority of school group projects don't teach that skill and are a waste of time, even when they're on a key topic instead of Norway.

 

Learning to work as a group is why my kids do DI.

[Starr]

Group work is big in the schools of friends of ours from California to Chicago to the NE. The way to make it work, they all say, is for the student who wants to be sure the group gets an A to do most of the work. The philosophy of learning to work in a group seems lost on kids needing grades. They've long given up thinking everyone will do their share. In 4 weeks a much more interesting project for a fair could have been accomplished. I don't think homeschooling him will hurt him but group projects will be waiting in college.

[8circles]

I could write a long essay on this! :glare:

 

While it is true that you often work in some kind of teams in business, IME they don't much resemble the school team projects I had to do.

 

There are many differences. One already mentioned is that business teams are better motivated. Another huge difference is that team members have pre-set roles: design, production, sales, etc. IRL, on a business team, people aren't interchangeable; it is not left to the team to split up the roles. It's also not that easy for one team member to pick up the slack of another because the roles are distinct.

 

Yet another very significant difference is that there is a clear "chain of command". You might think that the teacher serves that role in school, but IME the teacher assigns the project and then doesn't provide any counseling or support to help with conflicts.

 

I agree with those who said that effective assertiveness and negotiation skills are important, but are these skills actually taught as part of the team project? It seems like it is left to the students to sort through things on their own.

 

:iagree:Totally, especially the last paragraph. I would LOVE for these negotiation/delegation/asseriveness skills to actually be TAUGHT. IME they weren't & group work was a waste of time. Eventually I did figure out how to navigate my way through the group work but not until after college.

[mommymilkies]

I have always hated group work, too. I am an introverted control freak. I refuse to get a bad grade because I'm in a group with underachieving kids. That always happens. So I would end up doing all of the work. The only decent group project I ever did was in college for chemistry. Lab work is easier in a group if you can pick your own group.

[Brigitte]

So my ds homeschooled exclusively for k-5. Then in 6th grade we came here and he has been doing school part time and homeschooling part time. Now that he is in 8th grade he is down to only two subjects at home and the rest is at school. The plan was for him to go to school full time starting next year for high school.

 

But

 

He hates it. Well, not exactly "hates" it... it's just that group learning isn't his "thing" so mostly he is irritated by it. :tongue_smilie:

 

The school is VERY big on "cooperative" learning so they do all these group projects. In his social studies class he spent about 4 weeks working on a project for the "European Fair" which ended up being one of those big tri-fold boards with info about Norway (the country he drew randomly with his partner).

 

4 weeks on NORWAY??

 

No offense to any Norwegians on the boards but really? There is so much he could learn about European geography and history but he didn't "draw" those other countries ... he got Norway.

 

And really he's just an introvert. He said to me today:

 

"If they stopped all the group work, cutesy activities, and the turn-to-your-partner-and-discuss stuff we could be done with school by noon. I just want them to give me the stuff they want me to know. I will read the books, do the work and teach myself and if I need their help I'll ask for it."

 

He goes through the motions of school but honestly, he would rather not. So I am thinking I should just let him take online classes and study topics on his own, etc. rather than continue on with regular school. IOW, go back to homeschooling.

 

But people say to me "But he NEEDS to learn to work on group projects! That is an important skill for life!" But my thinking is Really? Maybe he ends up going into a field where his work is more solitary???? He does do other things in group settings...hobbies, sports, etc.

 

I am rambling... I guess my questions are: Do we NEED to do group projects? Do we NEED to learn in a group so we can function in society? Will I be doing him a disservice if I give in to his introverted-ness and let him take online classes instead?

 

I haven't read the other responses, so forgive me if this is redundant. I went to a prestigious university for grad school in business. There was a ton of group work. The ONLY thing that got me prepared for was getting used to the fact that some people will skate by doing none of the required work while a few do all the work. And, the skaters still get credit for the job being done. :glare:

 

I think all the group work in school is a bunch of bunk. We learn to work cooperatively in so many ways without it being forced on us artificially - family meal time comes to mind, one person cooks, another sets the table, another gets the drinks, someone clears the table and another washes the dishes. If everyone does their part, the meal is handled efficiently, with no one person doing all the work. If you have a slacker, things are left undone or someone has the carry the weight of the slacker. There you have it, a lesson in group dynamics without wasting school time on it. :D

[Kim in Appalachia]

I hated group work. I would have preferred to just be handed my work, go off on my own, and be left alone. I'm still like that. The only way I work well in a group is either to be completely in charge or say nothing and do what I'm told. I'm not good in those situations. Honestly, I think that's why I liked the idea of homeschooling. To me it sounded perfect, but then I get kids who need to be around others to thrive. How does that happen. :lol:

 

 

Anyway, I would vote for letting him do school the way that's best for him.

[Hedgehog]

I haven't read the other responses, so forgive me if this is redundant. I went to a prestigious university for grad school in business. There was a ton of group work. The ONLY thing that got me prepared for was getting used to the fact that some people will skate by doing none of the required work while a few do all the work. And, the skaters still get credit for the job being done. :glare:

 

I think all the group work in school is a bunch of bunk. We learn to work cooperatively in so many ways without it being forced on us artificially - family meal time comes to mind, one person cooks, another sets the table, another gets the drinks, someone clears the table and another washes the dishes. If everyone does their part, the meal is handled efficiently, with no one person doing all the work. If you have a slacker, things are left undone or someone has the carry the weight of the slacker. There you have it, a lesson in group dynamics without wasting school time on it. :D

 

:iagree: The skill of working as part of a group can bs learned in many places other than school. It just becomes your responsibility (as the parent) to see that your ds has these opportunities. In the same way that you take on the responsibility of providing good academic resources.

 

ETA: I'm an introvert, and I hated group work in school. We were given group projects to do, and left entirely to ourselves to do them.

[Colleen in NS]

The school is VERY big on "cooperative" learning so they do all these group projects.

 

He does do other things in group settings...hobbies, sports, etc.

 

Do we NEED to do group projects? Do we NEED to learn in a group so we can function in society? Will I be doing him a disservice if I give in to his introverted-ness and let him take online classes instead?

 

Isn't it an American school that preps kids who will be going to American universities? Maybe that's part of the cooperative learning mentality, too. But wouldn't American universities be more impressed by a kid who is off in Malaysia with his family, learning the things he needs to learn but in a way tailored to him? And don't you guys do family missions work, too, besides the usual hobbies/sports group activities? I bet you could find TONS of realistic group projects for him to do where you live.

[Ellie]

Sounds like a really smart young man--he recognizes twaddle. :D

 

I say let him do his classes on-line.

 

IRL, we don't work on projects the same artificial way Professional Educators want dc to work.

[FaithManor]

DD's group work experiences were VERY negative in the two years she attended a Lutheran school.

 

Essentially, the good students were paired with two or three very lazy students. The teachers did not teach any skills on how to work in a group, the concept being that they would "figure it out" for themselves - there was no consequence from the teacher for those that refused to work. Well, what is a 7th grader supposed to do with three other kids who openly say, "I'm not doing a thing. You do the work. You always get A's. It's an easy A for me." Somehow the magical A student in the bunch was supposed to figure out how to "motivate" these people to do something. Frankly, if the person with the education degree cannot make Mr. Lazy do some work, then I do not see how this should become the responsibility of the other students. It's ludicrous. Of course the good students didn't want their grades to bomb so they did all the work and the others got the easy A or B.

 

I suppose this is some sort of preparation for college or the workplace. But, I can tell you that when I was in college, every group assignment came with the caveat that we would each be awarded a grade for the quality of the portion of the project assigned by the leader to each student. The professors KNEW who was slacking. In the workplace, yes sometimes you work with a lazy individual or someone who takes credit for other's work. But, in the end, I've also seen in nearly every circumstance that their lack of work ethic eventually caught up to them and they were fired! Life consequences. Nearly all group work that I've seen in schools has been an inaccurate representation of what group work will be in adulthood and as such, an artificial situation...not of any real value.

 

Knowing how to deal with people in the work place in order to accomplish a larger goal with small pieces of that work being assigned to multiple individuals, takes emotional maturity and wisdom. I don't think that is reasonable to expect from those that do not yet possess any real measure of frontal lobe brain maturity.

 

It also begs the question that since the learning one can do on such projects is limited, does the benefit of what little can be gained from this work out-weigh the benefit of other kinds of assignments. I would say that pre-college, the answer is no.

 

I learned how to work in a group as a youngster. It was called band and we had a very strict director who knew how to take a bunch of wandering loons and make us into a unit that respected and valued one another. It was a far better experience than trying to get some lazy child to actually write a coherent sentence.

 

Faith

Edited September 26, 2011 by FaithManor
spelling

[myfunnybunch]

Group projects always look good on a syllabus or course description, but it is very difficult to design group projects that are meaningful and promote real group learning.

 

A group project is meaningful when it is a project that requires a group, either because of the amount of work to be done or because there is a challenging problem that can benefit from group brainstorming and problem-solving.

 

Group projects for the sake of working as a group...thbbbpppppttt! Busywork. Boring and meaningless.

 

Learning about a country in a group, bleah. Planning a bake sale or the prom, putting on a play, or trying to solve a logic puzzle have more connection to the ways real people work in groups.

 

Cat

[abbeyej]

When I went from 9 years of home school and 1 year of private school to public school for the first time, I was shocked and horrified at how much worthless busywork we had to do as "groups". Gag me with a spoon! So much time wasted, so much doing-other-people's-work-for-them, so much nonsense.

 

And no, lol, I don't think it had any impact on my ability to work with other people outside of school. :)

 

It did make me more cynical though. ;)

[5of5]

Faith's excellent description had me trying to picture what life skills such situations actually teach --- maybe how to deal with a mugger? Really, the good students have nothing to negotiate with and no power over the slackers.

[wapiti]

As a PP noted, group projects are a notorious part of business school. It's irritating enough at that adult age, let alone for kids. It's not as though middle school students are known for their mature behavior towards others.

 

I agree that it might be interesting if group skills were explicitly taught. Beyond that, I wouldn't have a ton of use for it in an academic setting in school.

[TranquilMind]

Don't even get me started on these completely ridiculous group projects. Rarely is it of any value. Usually, what happens is what happened to my daughter, last year, in her first year ever in school.

 

Group projects were assigned. My daughter did her part, and perfectly. 100% correct. BUT other kids didn't do theirs or didn't do it correctly, so they ALL FAILED the assignment. It was a Physics class and you had better believe I was all over that teacher. At first, he agreed that this was a bad idea, but also thought that they needed to learn to work together and depend on each other. He was new and idealistic. Finally, he realized that no matter what he did, some kids were going to do the work and some were not, or simply couldn't and that those latter kids were dragging down the kids who knew what they were doing. He finally gave up group projects and warned me to have my daughter take control of them in other classes. She had already figured this out.

 

For the rest of the year, she did all "group" projects herself, with a little input sometimes from others, if they were willing. They knew she'd do it and they'd all get an A so they let her. She even did a final math project with a partner who refused to show up and work on it. On the night before it was due, she texted my daughter and just said it wasn't going to happen, so my daughter did it all, put both names on it, turned it in and they both received As. The other girl never even thanked her.

[TranquilMind]

The ONLY thing that got me prepared for was getting used to the fact that some people will skate by doing none of the required work while a few do all the work. And, the skaters still get credit for the job being done. :glare:

 

 

 

That's the only part that has real life application. My husband's office is like a Dilbert Comic strip. Everyone blames everyone else when he drops the ball, and they all blame my husband, through whom everything has to pass!

 

Let the poor kids grow up before they learn that slackers/behind-kissers cause a lot of office trauma!

[AuntieM]

Your son sounds like the ideal home school student, motivated and self-controlled.

 

My oldest is like this. He doesn't mind an occasional group thing, but he feels bogged down by the process. I think excessive group work would depress his educational spirit. While I think it's important to understand and have some experience with the dynamics of group work, I think in excess, it can be detrimental to ambitious participants. I mean, you really have to work at the level of the slowest person, don't you? And the outcome is only as strong as the weakest link (the alternative is that the strong members pull all the weight, and that's not truly group work).

 

So, as long as he has polished people skills - which one can earn through extra curricular activities and a once-in-a-blue-moon group project - I might think about getting him out of that groupthink environment. JMO.

[AuntieM]

Don't even get me started on these completely ridiculous group projects. Rarely is it of any value. Usually, what happens is what happened to my daughter, last year, in her first year ever in school.

 

Group projects were assigned. My daughter did her part, and perfectly. 100% correct. BUT other kids didn't do theirs or didn't do it correctly, so they ALL FAILED the assignment. It was a Physics class and you had better believe I was all over that teacher. At first, he agreed that this was a bad idea, but also thought that they needed to learn to work together and depend on each other. He was new and idealistic. Finally, he realized that no matter what he did, some kids were going to do the work and some were not, or simply couldn't and that those latter kids were dragging down the kids who knew what they were doing. He finally gave up group projects and warned me to have my daughter take control of them in other classes. She had already figured this out.

 

For the rest of the year, she did all "group" projects herself, with a little input sometimes from others, if they were willing. They knew she'd do it and they'd all get an A so they let her. She even did a final math project with a partner who refused to show up and work on it. On the night before it was due, she texted my daughter and just said it wasn't going to happen, so my daughter did it all, put both names on it, turned it in and they both received As. The other girl never even thanked her.

 

This has been my recent experience as well, with a group of *adults* returned to school. :glare:

[Julie Smith]

For the rest of the year, she did all "group" projects herself, with a little input sometimes from others, if they were willing. They knew she'd do it and they'd all get an A so they let her. She even did a final math project with a partner who refused to show up and work on it. On the night before it was due, she texted my daughter and just said it wasn't going to happen, so my daughter did it all, put both names on it, turned it in and they both received As. The other girl never even thanked her.

 

IF you complain then the teacher usually states that he/she can't step in since you need to figure out how to work out these things, and that is the point of the project. Also if you complain and the other kids find out you will possibly be bullied for it.

 

Group projects are a no go here. The only thing you learn is how awful it is to work on a group project, or how great it is because other do the work for you. How useless teachers are at managing group projects, and how pointless it all is.

 

I will not be pushing group projects. :p

 

One thing that I think can nicely teach working together is being in a small musical group. Everyone has to practice and work on songs alone - or it doesn't come together as a group. Also it is easily apparent who is not practicing by themselves.

[5of5]

IF you complain then the teacher usually states that he/she can't step in since you need to figure out how to work out these things, and that is the point of the project.

 

Complete cop-out on the part of teachers!

[Tammyla]

Teamwork is a valuable skill, I just wish the team members all knew how to and wanted to work.

 

In hindsight, I learned management skills...drop the dead weight when ever possible.

 

Actual teamwork can be learned in many places, and many of them are much better than a classroom.

[msk]

In partial defense of group work: I teach college classes (and took a zillion in my time), and have found SOME group work to be helpful. Sometimes discussions in which we share ideas and solve problems really do help us understand and remember things better.

 

The trouble is, a class of 30 or more is a tough place to have a discussion; many students have great ideas but are way too shy to speak in front of 29 other people. I often have my students collaborate in small groups of 5 or so to solve a short problem or answer a question in about 10 minutes in the middle of class. Then the groups each share their answers, and I guide those answers into the form of whatever it was I wanted them to figure out from the exercise. During the small group discussions, I wander around and see certain students really shine, leading their groups to interesting ideas. Other people who normally look sleepy during lectures are suddenly animated, arguing and listening. The students who seem to be the real leaders of the small-group discussions are often NOT the ones who contribute to the full-group discussion afterward, however. I think the small group discussions give those smart, introverted people a chance to speak they wouldn't otherwise have. I suspect this is why many classroom teachers do group work; since we're dealing with a large, unwieldy group in an institutional setting, this is the only way to get introverted students involved in discussing ideas, and discussing ideas IS an important skill to have. Public schooled kids may not have many other opportunities to do that, depending on what their "outside lives" are like.

 

On the other hand, the only credit my students get for those short discussion exercises is for participation (although the ideas that come from our discussion of them are often part of later assignments). The take-home written assignments the vast majority of their grades are based on are always individual, because I used to be one of those kids who did all the work for my "group," too.

[Aubrey]

I have always hated group work. I was actually assigned to a group that had already been formed once where the other 2 had done nothing. Every time we got together, they chatted about one girl's upcoming wedding. Nothing got done, total waste of time. I tried to redirect, set goals, etc., but it was clearly THEIR project, & I wasn't touching it, kwim?

 

When it came time to present the nothing that we had, the other two met w/ the teacher ahead of time & were somehow able to convince the woman that their complete lack of *anything* was my fault. :confused: I can't even fathom how I could have *prevented* them from doing work before I was there, much less after, lol, or how a sane person would come anywhere close to believing that. The prof wasn't exactly sane, though...

 

Anyway, later in my ed classes (master's degree, different school), we were taught the benefits of group work. I have to say, in THEORY, it's very compelling, even after the awful experiences I've had. But I agree w/ PP--teachers rarely (if ever) take enough responsibility for making sure that the group work is well-planned & effective. AND it's hardly the only way to learn. AND it's different than group work in the working world (I hope!)--where there's a clear chain of command.

 

Although...group work as a teacher...cooperating w/ other teachers...yeah, *that* is a lot like group work in school. UGH! But hopefully mine was an isolated experience...

 

Heather,

 

I don't know what to tell you about your ds. For highschool...I don't know. Yeah, he might be happier w/ online classes (if he doesn't get too lonely), but...I don't know how that would look on a transcript. I'd think your school would look *good.* And I think that's important enough to consider...although I was just like your ds when I was a kid, so I do understand.

 

Is the group work an important learning opportunity? Maybe, but definitely not always. What about IB style projects--would the school/teachers be open to some of those instead of/ in conjunction w/ the group work? That's pretty popular in the ed sphere right now, too, & it looks like something your ds could really get into. Unschool-y in a good way.

 

If they won't be flexible...I *think* I'd still pick the school over online classes. IF you guys agree to that...is there anything he can do to sort-of take charge of his experiences there? MAKE the group work/assigned projects on Norway/whatever more interesting, more important, more whatever? I think *that* is also a skill worth learning.

 

:grouphug: So glad not to be a teen any more! :lol: (Or the parent of one yet...)

[Heather in Neverland]

Thank you ladies so much for responding. I think I now have a handle on what it was that is bugging me about this whole thing...

 

The idea that we want kids to do these group projects but we don't TEACH them HOW to work in a group. We just stick them in a group and expect them to figure it out on their own!!

 

My son's most recent group project involved him (an outspoken introvert if that makes any sense) and two very quiet, non-confrontational Asian girls. He got so frustrated because he couldn't get the two girls to make a decision. They were just very meek and wouldn't give their opinions. So he took over.

 

His teacher then said he was getting marked down in his participation grade for being too bossy and not working collaboratively.

 

But no one gave these kids a role in the group or talked to them about what working collaboratively looks like (and what being too bossy looks like).

 

I still don't know what we will do for next year but this has helped me to talk with the teachers I am in charge of about what GOOD group projects look like.

[Aubrey]

Thank you ladies so much for responding. I think I now have a handle on what it was that is bugging me about this whole thing...

 

The idea that we want kids to do these group projects but we don't TEACH them HOW to work in a group. We just stick them in a group and expect them to figure it out on their own!!

 

My son's most recent group project involved him (an outspoken introvert if that makes any sense) and two very quiet, non-confrontational Asian girls. He got so frustrated because he couldn't get the two girls to make a decision. They were just very meek and wouldn't give their opinions. So he took over.

 

His teacher then said he was getting marked down in his participation grade for being too bossy and not working collaboratively.

 

I'm guessing the girls didn't get "marked down" for not participating?

 

But no one gave these kids a role in the group or talked to them about what working collaboratively looks like (and what being too bossy looks like).

 

I still don't know what we will do for next year but this has helped me to talk with the teachers I am in charge of about what GOOD group projects look like.

 

My thesis project for my MA was on group work. The situation you described above was a failure on the part of the teacher, not your ds--not even the girls, really--they needed direction.

 

Good luck, Heather!

[KJB]

Keep in mind that one of the major reasons behind the push for group and collaborative work in the classroom is because group work helps manage and motivate students. When students are in the classroom, they can be taught more efficiently working in groups. Research indicates that students of varying learning styles and strengths benefit from students working together. Also, group work helps keep students motivated and engaged over sitting alone and listening to a lecture.

 

So. One of the reasons for the push for group work in the classroom is that it helps kids in a classroom (who have no other choice but to be taught in a classroom) learn better and stay more interested.

 

If a student has a choice to not be in a classroom, then you introduce a whole new variable that is not considered when researchers have looked at group work. Group work is compared to the alternatives available in the classroom for kids who have to learn along side other kids and not to homeschooling.

 

Homeschooling is a whole 'nother animal. I don't think you can compare what works well in a classroom with learning that takes place in a different venue all together.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I started typing out a very cynical and overly negative response, but for once, thought better of it, and just wanted to say that "team" work isn't for everyone. I personally never got a lot out of it. And as an adult, I've never enjoyed the experiences in which I'm supposed to function as part of a "team" in an employment setting.