Be careful how you critique? Seriously?

[Truscifi]

That must be a very young Snape...er, Alan Rickman. I almost didn't recognize him!

 

I liked it too. :D

[gardening momma]

No more pms *sigh* TG!

Still once a month for some of us. :lol:

[Mona100]

You ladies are letting me down. It took to page 18 to see kilts. Shame, shame.

 

 

 

 

I am afraid to say that if I have to squeeze my sagginess into that, then he who must not be named, should be VERY AFRAID!!!!!!

 

There's also this! Note the sharp stingers they carry!

 

 

 

Bees in kilts - a lethal, fighting force.

 

Faith :D

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dd9 wants me to tell everyone that we saw a man in a utilikilt in the grocery store last night. She kept giggling.

[FaithManor]

*I* liked it. :001_smile:

 

SWB

 

 

Yes, but did you like the outfit picked for you, our great hive queen, back on page 19 or 20, somewhere in there? Inquiring hives want to know!

 

Faith

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Whew!!! Finally made it through all 28 pages of this interesting thread! I go away camping for a week, and see what I miss???? I should know never to leave this place unsupervised! ;)

 

What fun! Bees, kilts, camels, Harry Potter, and drama! I missed you guys this week! :D

 

ETA: I never did get the Bananas comment.....

Edited August 1, 2011 by lovelaughs_times_three

[Colleen in NS]

Still once a month for some of us. :lol:

 

:lol:

 

And I'm glad these threads were re-thought - I couldn't figure out what drastic thing had happened to cause us not to be able to critique a program here of all places!

 

And, on the kilt note - in downtown Halifax, New Scotland today, I spotted two hotel greeters in their Nova Scotian tartan kilts. Wanted to ask them if I could take pictures, but I chickened out!! :lol: I s'pose I could have acted all touristy....

[TXBeth]

:lol:

 

And I'm glad these threads were re-thought - I couldn't figure out what drastic thing had happened to cause us not to be able to critique a program here of all places!

 

And, on the kilt note - in downtown Halifax, New Scotland today, I spotted two hotel greeters in their Nova Scotian tartan kilts. Wanted to ask them if I could take pictures, but I chickened out!! :lol: I s'pose I could have acted all touristy....

 

:lol::lol::lol: I can see it now...."why? oh, I just want to post them on website for these ladies who, um...we like men in kilts.....what website?.....well, it's a forum, actually.....for kids....er, moms of kids, who um......homeschool, and well,........never mind.":leaving:

[Colleen in NS]

:lol::lol::lol: I can see it now...."why? oh, I just want to post them on website for these ladies who, um...we like men in kilts.....what website?.....well, it's a forum, actually.....for kids....er, moms of kids, who um......homeschool, and well,........never mind.":leaving:

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

And see, that's why I said I could have acted touristy - the tourists who come here are ALWAYS taking pictures of the men in kilts, because those men (and tourists) are everywhere! But I wasn't a tourist, couldn't pretend to be one, so I chickened out. lol!

[FaithManor]

:lol::lol::lol: I can see it now...."why? oh, I just want to post them on website for these ladies who, um...we like men in kilts.....what website?.....well, it's a forum, actually.....for kids....er, moms of kids, who um......homeschool, and well,........never mind.":leaving:

 

And the number one best selling calendar for 2012 is...... (drum roll please) The Well Trained Mind Men in Kilts. Guys, what to get your "hives" this Christmas, well you'll be sure to please with this lovely calendar of ordinary Joes as well as big name kilt wearers such as Patrick Dempsey, Colin Firth, Sean Connery, and Johnny Depp. (This advertisement brought to you by, The Well Trained Mind, because inquiring hives want to know!)

 

:party:

 

"I heard it through the Hive mind

Not much longer would you be mine.

Oh I heard it through the Hive mind,

Oh I'm just about to lose my beeline .

Honey, honey yeah."

 

:biggrinjester: I just felt that as the thread winds down, it should go out with a bzzzzzzzz.

 

Faith

[elegantlion]

Thank you SWB.

 

 

I'm kind of annoyed that he caused everyone to overlook my picture of Snape in a kilt. :tongue_smilie: Or maybe it just wasn't as funny as I thought it was.:D

 

Personally Dr. Lazarus is my hero. :D

[elegantlion]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

And see, that's why I said I could have acted touristy - the tourists who come here are ALWAYS taking pictures of the men in kilts, because those men (and tourists) are everywhere! But I wasn't a tourist, couldn't pretend to be one, so I chickened out. lol!

 

Budget cuts. Some of us have had to cut back on our tourist time. We now hire locals to take vacation shots of all the places we wanted to go.

 

Wow, someone could probably start a real business with that. "We'll take the best shots of the vacation you couldn't afford to take."

 

(Photoshopping you into the photos is available at a special package price)

[kalanamak]

 

I think part of what you have to realize here is the suspicion people have about no samples - while I understand your reluctance to "give away" what you see as secrets, the people here are used to SWB, who has offered to give the first 20 weeks of her new writing program free to anyone who asks, just because it's late at the publisher... most other programs (writing or otherwise) usually have at least a TOC and sample lesson or two. Your position is unusual, and things that are unusual makes some people go :confused:

 

 

Nor is it as if users are sworn to secrecy, and it doesn't seem likely that any objective outsider evaluating writing programs is going to put a blind fold on with looking at yours.

 

Unless very, very trusted people who have children similar to mine tout something, I would not spend money on a sight-unseen program, for very simple reasons such as if the page is too "noisy" my son will be distracted. (Other people like this to "maintain interest"). Just reading your webpage, well, it seems "noisy", so I didn't even bother to look for examples. :)

 

However, you may be cute in a kilt. You can leave that to our imagination.

 

(And has everyone notices that authors who come here fall into two camps? Really sweet, like the AG and GWG ladies (and, well, SWB), and the somewhat hacked off with a torch blazing and whipping in the wind of controversy?)

[Colleen in NS]

Budget cuts. Some of us have had to cut back on our tourist time. We now hire locals to take vacation shots of all the places we wanted to go.

 

Wow, someone could probably start a real business with that. "We'll take the best shots of the vacation you couldn't afford to take."

 

:lol:

 

Oh, back to the thread - I'm so glad the PTB changed their minds on this issue, and stayed consistent with their philosophy here. You all rock!

Edited August 2, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Night Elf]

And the number one best selling calendar for 2012 is...... (drum roll please) The Well Trained Mind Men in Kilts. Guys, what to get your "hives" this Christmas, well you'll be sure to please with this lovely calendar of ordinary Joes as well as big name kilt wearers such as Patrick Dempsey, Colin Firth, Sean Connery, and Johnny Depp. (This advertisement brought to you by, The Well Trained Mind, because inquiring hives want to know!)

 

When I started reading this, I thought you were talking about getting our husbands to pose for the calendar and I was wondering what month I would like my DH to pose for! :lol:

[rocketgirl]

hmmm..... it'd be more interesting & dramatic if I'd ever heard of that program before.....

Edited August 1, 2011 by rocketgirl

[LidiyaDawn]

I think that everyone who feels this way should email the author and let him know just what kind of marketing mistake he made with his ridiculous lawsuit threats.

 

Please don't do this unless you (plural) have a reasoned argument to present -- and I'm not saying you (singular and plural) don't :001_smile:. E-mail bombing is petty, abusive, and generally accomplishes nothing.

 

[haven't caught up yet so i don't know if anyone else responded]

 

The guy is throwing around threats of lawsuits if people (homeschooling parents - part of his target customers!) dare to express their dislike for his program or approach….can't say as that I'd care how bogged down his email account gets when those same target customers let him know that he's being a toad. :drool:

 

edit: caught up … and happy to see that the muzzles are gone.

Edited August 1, 2011 by LidiyaDawn

[Forget-Me-Not]

Tell you what.

 

Y'all talk away about whatever you want, and if there's a further difficulty, we'll let you know.

 

SWB

 

I love this board.:D

[5LittleMonkeys]

I just got back from the airport...delayed flights:banghead:...I thought this thread might be dead by now.

 

SWB liked my picture of Snape. :D:D Oh, and I love him as Dr. Lazarus!!! That is one of my all time favorite movies.

 

I thought I had some insightful, wise words to add but I realize now that I don't. I must have used them all up earlier. Oh well, thanks to everyone for the great thread; I feel like we accomplished a lot today. Motto, uniform, a few kilt pictures, we can talk about PATTERN BASED WRITING again...yep, it's all good.

[5LittleMonkeys]

hmmm..... it'd be more interesting & dramatic if I'd ever heard of that program before.....

 

Ooooh, go post an inquiry about it on the K-8 board. :tongue_smilie::lol:

 

I'm just kidding.;)

[Harriet Vane]

Tell you what.

 

Y'all talk away about whatever you want, and if there's a further difficulty, we'll let you know.

 

SWB

 

:party:

[Laura in CA]

 

If they would have removed just that one trademarked post, every other negative comment would have remained.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky (I don't have to try ... it comes naturally to me :D), but I would have a hard time buying a writing program from someone who says "if they would have" :001_huh:

 

I know, I know, good writing and good grammar are not synonymous, but still ...

[ChrissySC]

I think the best points were made in the latest posts to this thread. Our grammar and error on the forum are not indicative of our ability to write. The tone and style of jotty-type messages is also not indicative of our ability to write.

 

Finally, don't feign complete understanding and knowledge of a topic while standing underneath a hinve, and certainly don't take a stick and poke at it. You will get stung.

[Ria]

This thread is the epitome of what I have missed in my years away. Love it!!

 

Ria

[Renee in NC]

This thread is the epitome of what I have missed in my years away. Love it!!

 

Ria

 

We've missed you, Ria.:D I still have some of your "homeschooling is hard work and you need to get off your butt and do it" posts saved.;)

[Perry]

I'm not trying to be snarky (I don't have to try ... it comes naturally to me :D), but I would have a hard time buying a writing program from someone who says "if they would have" :001_huh:

 

I know, I know, good writing and good grammar are not synonymous, but still ...

Okay, I am not a grammar queen....

 

What's wrong with "if they would have"? :blushing:

[Caitilin]

Okay, I am not a grammar queen....

 

What's wrong with "if they would have"? :blushing:

 

It should be "if they had"; but I have to :blushing: admit that I am not sure WHY that is so...

[TheAutumnOak]

Okay, I am not a grammar queen....

 

What's wrong with "if they would have"? :blushing:

 

Don't :blush: alone, I wondered the same thing :leaving:

[Word Nerd]

It should be "if they had"; but I have to :blushing: admit that I am not sure WHY that is so...

 

Here is a good explanation.

[brehon]

We've missed you, Ria.:D I still have some of your "homeschooling is hard work and you need to get off your butt and do it" posts saved.;)

 

 

:iagree: And some us read those posts originally, but short sightedly didn't save them and are wondering if they're somewhere easily found...hmmm?...

[Matryoshka]

What's wrong with "if they would have"? :blushing:

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se. The verb "would" is used in English to show a conditional statement. I don't think "If they had" is wrong either - English is much, much more flexible about these things than other languages, which is probably why I have never found an English grammar text that gives verbs more than passing mention (if someone has a text that explains that "if they would have" is grammatically wrong vs. just than a stylistic choice, lay it on me - I've really never seen English verbs analyzed to that degree, so I will happily bow to a more authoritative source).

 

In other languages I know, the "if" clause would have required the subjunctive, which we almost completely lack. The subjunctive also emphasizes a state in which the outcome is unclear. Usually then one would use the conditional tense in the main clause - "If he were here, he would have done it". I guess one could argue that moving the conditional tense to the "if" clause is a no no? But I've never seen it so written... using the conditional there doesn't seem so bad since we don't have a subjunctive (except "if I/he/she were")...

 

ETA: While I was posting this, I see Word Girl posted an explanation which is in fact the scenario in my second paragraph. See what happens when we get rid of the subjunctive? We're left flailing about trying to find a way emphasize the uncertain nature of the statement in the "if" clause, but without any tool left in our toolbox....

Edited August 1, 2011 by matroyshka

[Impish]

And the number one best selling calendar for 2012 is...... (drum roll please) The Well Trained Mind Men in Kilts. Guys, what to get your "hives" this Christmas, well you'll be sure to please with this lovely calendar of ordinary Joes as well as big name kilt wearers such as Patrick Dempsey, Colin Firth, Sean Connery, and Johnny Depp. (This advertisement brought to you by, The Well Trained Mind, because inquiring hives want to know!)

 

:party:

 

"I heard it through the Hive mind

Not much longer would you be mine.

Oh I heard it through the Hive mind,

Oh I'm just about to lose my beeline .

Honey, honey yeah."

 

:biggrinjester: I just felt that as the thread winds down, it should go out with a bzzzzzzzz.

 

Faith

:lol:

[simka2]

:iagree: And some us read those posts originally, but short sightedly didn't save them and are wondering if they're somewhere easily found...hmmm?...

Please? Link? :D

[Love2Smile]

Can anyone provide a link please????

[Jennifer]

I wish I had saved Ria's posts. There was a time, a few years ago, when I was in a deep, dark place. Learning was not happening in our home. But I felt if I gave up on homeschooling, I would be more of a failure than I already was. Ria's post got me off my butt. My kids went to public school for 2 years and had an excellent experience there. I got my own act together and we are back home and loving it. Being productive, too! I'm so glad to see Ria here again.

Jennifer

[Ria]

While I am flattered, I find myself wondering what the heck I wrote that still has people talking about it after 3 years or so. Yikes. It's a little disconcerting!

[simka2]

I wish I had saved Ria's posts. There was a time, a few years ago, when I was in a deep, dark place. Learning was not happening in our home. But I felt if I gave up on homeschooling, I would be more of a failure than I already was. Ria's post got me off my butt. My kids went to public school for 2 years and had an excellent experience there. I got my own act together and we are back home and loving it. Being productive, too! I'm so glad to see Ria here again.

Jennifer

 

While I am flattered, I find myself wondering what the heck I wrote that still has people talking about it after 3 years or so. Yikes. It's a little disconcerting!

 

Okay now I am really curious!!!!!!

[brehon]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se. The verb "would" is used in English to show a conditional statement. I don't think "If they had" is wrong either - English is much, much more flexible about these things than other languages, which is probably why I have never found an English grammar text that gives verbs more than passing mention (if someone has a text that explains that "if they would have" is grammatically wrong vs. just than a stylistic choice, lay it on me - I've really never seen English verbs analyzed to that degree, so I will happily bow to a more authoritative source).

 

In other languages I know, the "if" clause would have required the subjunctive, which we almost completely lack. The subjunctive also emphasizes a state in which the outcome is unclear. Usually then one would use the conditional tense in the main clause - "If he were here, he would have done it". I guess one could argue that moving the conditional tense to the "if" clause is a no no? But I've never seen it so written... using the conditional there doesn't seem so bad since we don't have a subjunctive (except "if I/he/she were")...

 

ETA: While I was posting this, I see Word Girl posted an explanation which is in fact the scenario in my second paragraph. See what happens when we get rid of the subjunctive? We're left flailing about trying to find a way emphasize the uncertain nature of the statement in the "if" clause, but without any tool left in our toolbox....

 

I refuse to relinquish the subjunctive and use it regularly. I sometimes think I'm tilting at windmills; but, hey, that's what makes life just so darn fun. :tongue_smilie:

[Laura in CA]

It should be "if they had"; but I have to :blushing: admit that I am not sure WHY that is so...

 

Here is a good explanation.

 

Sorry for not explaining why! WordGirl's link is good -- thanks! The absolute best explanation I've seen is in a column by Barbara Wallraff in The Atlantic here -- basically that it's overkill, but she says it so clearly. Thanks to the web I found the column again after 11 years! Here's the text:

 

Q: Everywhere I go, I hear people saying "I wish I would have done x ... " instead of "I wish I had," or "If I would have done x ... " instead of "If I had." It strikes me as grammatically wrong, but I am at a loss for a technical explanation of why it is -- or isn't -- a mistake. I wish I had taken an English grammar course more recently than eighth grade!

 

Holly Nesbeitt

Athens, Greece

 

A: An assertion that contains would have is contingent on something. For instance, "I would have washed it if ..." something else had or hadn't happened -- "if I had known you were going to eat it," let's say. But how can the event on which our contingency rests be contingent as well -- "if I would have known you were going to eat it"? (In your mind, strip away the if from that and consider what "I would have known ... " by itself means, and the problem will be obvious.) Similarly, contingency is bound up in the very idea of a wish, as in your first example, so following wish with would have is in effect redundant: good grammar calls for "I wish I had known you were going to eat it."

 

I suspect that when would have appears in an if clause and the if clause precedes the main clause, as in your second example, the speaker or writer has made the mistake by thinking ahead to the contingent part. I've heard at least two other explanations, though, for why this mistake is as common as it is. Possibly some people who have heard such contractions as "If I'd seen you in time, I'd have stopped you" have gotten the first 'd, which stands for had, garbled in their minds with the second one, which stands for would. Or possibly people are extrapolating from could have, which (because its underlying verb, can, behaves differently from would's underlying will) isn't necessarily wrong in similar constructions -- say, "If I could have washed it, I would have."

[Renee in NC]

While I am flattered, I find myself wondering what the heck I wrote that still has people talking about it after 3 years or so. Yikes. It's a little disconcerting!

 

I lied. I don't still have them - I remember now that they were not saved when I lost my hard drive info. I used to have printed copies, but I got rid of all the paper when I moved thinking I had them saved electronically.:glare: I had Parisarah posts saved there, too.

 

I tried to search the old board with WayBack Machine, but wasn't having much luck. They were posts that you usually posted when the idea of "homeschooling standards" came up. Basically it was about how homeschooling was hard work and you just had to do it!

 

If anyone else saved any of them (and still has them) I'd love to have a copy.

[Night Elf]

While I am flattered, I find myself wondering what the heck I wrote that still has people talking about it after 3 years or so. Yikes. It's a little disconcerting!

 

I don't remember specifics but I remember you were one of my favorite posters! And we really liked your MWS program. :)

[ChrissySC]

While I am flattered, I find myself wondering what the heck I wrote that still has people talking about it after 3 years or so. Yikes. It's a little disconcerting!

 

 

You should have blogged.:lol:

[Matryoshka]

I refuse to relinquish the subjunctive and use it regularly. I sometimes think I'm tilting at windmills; but, hey, that's what makes life just so darn fun. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, I regularly and consistently use the one whole subjunctive verb form that remains to us in the English language (If I/he/she/it were...), but I wouldn't know what the other subjunctives even were to use them - they are lost to us (unless I guess if one were to study middle or old English - when did they leave us?). "If I had" is conjugated identically to the simple past. It should be subjunctive mood, but it and all the other verbs than "to be" don't have a subjunctive form that's any different from the indicative. :(

[Matryoshka]

Similarly, contingency is bound up in the very idea of a wish, as in your first example, so following wish with would have is in effect redundant: good grammar calls for "I wish I had known you were going to eat it."

 

 

No, it's not redundant. Otherwise most other languages wouldn't have a whole entire verb mood to put in that clause. I think people are groping around for something that approximates the subjunctive mood and the conditional is all they can find. :)

[Ria]

You should have blogged.:lol:

 

That, my dear, would have required effort and planning....I seem to have had my wits about me back then according to people who remember "the post," but my goodness, I believe it was an anomaly. LOL. Ree and MFS were the only ones back then who could actually blog and keep their lives together. :)

 

Ria

Edited August 2, 2011 by Ria

[Orthodox6]

http://www.englishpractice.com/grammar/subjunctive-mood-exist/

 

If you want that I should explain the subjunctive, I will not, but shall refer you to the article at the link provided above.

 

:D

 

I use the subjunctive routinely, as discussed in the article. Probably this is a function of my age (56).

 

P.S. How did this wacky thread morph from whatever was its beginning, through kilted drones (are these drones actually playing drones as well? -- given the Celtic connection, I surmise that they might be.), and on to remnants of the subjunctive in English?

 

 

Well, I regularly and consistently use the one whole subjunctive verb form that remains to us in the English language (If I/he/she/it were...), but I wouldn't know what the other subjunctives even were to use them - they are lost to us (unless I guess if one were to study middle or old English - when did they leave us?). "If I had" is conjugated identically to the simple past. It should be subjunctive mood, but it and all the other verbs than "to be" don't have a subjunctive form that's any different from the indicative. :(

Edited August 2, 2011 by Orthodox6

[Matryoshka]

http://www.englishpractice.com/grammar/subjunctive-mood-exist/

 

If you want that I should explain the subjunctive, I will not, but shall refer you to the article at the link provided above.

 

:D

 

I use the subjunctive routinely, as discussed in the article. Probably this is a function of my age (56).

 

Hehe... I do speak like that (okay, not "if you want that I should", but the examples in the link :)). It appears that I have read too many articles on "to be" being the last of the subjunctive, but I instinctively use it after 'suggest' or 'insist', but since English grammar text never talk about verbs, I honestly never thought about it (whereas in Spanish grammar they never stop talking about verbs...). And it's still just a tweak in the third person - how anemic! :D

 

However, other than "to be" it doesn't seem to be used in "if" clauses or after "wish" - or if one did use it, it would sound a bit... Shakespearian?

 

For example: If he speak to me like that again...

If she take another cookie...

If I still be there when you get home...

I wish she give me a present!

 

It mentions that often people add a "should" to emphasize the nuance after the 'suggest' and 'insist' type instructions (indirect commands), I think that's the same reason the 'would' gets put in the "if" (and 'wish') clauses.

 

"I wish she would give me a present when she comes" sounds much better, but is then as incorrect as "If I would give you a present tomorrow, would you leave me alone?" I guess we also get around that by using the past tense in the "if" clause, even if it's present or future action: "If I gave you a present tomorrow, would that satisfy you?", but that doesn't work as neatly for "wish": "I wish you gave me a present for my birthday next week." - we end up back with "would give" - conditional standing in again!

 

P.S. How did this psychotic thread morph from whatever was its beginning, through kilted drones (are these drones actually playing drones as well? -- given the Celtic connection, I surmise that they might be.), and on to remnants of the subjunctive in English?

:lol: Love it when threads go all sideways! :lol:

 

And I'm completely unable to resist a good microanalysis of obscure grammar. :tongue_smilie:

[Renee in NC]

That, my dear, would have required effort and planning....I seem to have had my wits about me back then according to people who remember "the post," but my goodness, I believe it was an anomaly. LOL. Ree and MFS were the only ones back then who could actually blog and keep their lives together. :)

 

Ria

 

It was more than just one post - more of your total homeschooling philosophy that was inspiring to me.;)