Have you ever felt someone wasn't doing "enough" hs'ing wise?

[Soror]

And have you spoke up?

 

I have a dear friend and I worry about her son. I think there are some learning issues there that haven't been identified for one thing. He didn't talk at all until 3.5. He is still on the first set of I See Sam readers, making little to no progress- he just turned 8 last month. He seems to have some math skills but it is all over the place. He is still having reversal issues and writing seems to be a difficulty as well.

 

I think partially there are behavior issues. Well, I know there are, we know that stems from gluten a lot but he keeps getting it- either from oversight or from Dad being non-chalant about it(he let's go eat Chinese). This makes it hard for them to work together period because he is then a total bear.

 

Also, she has a complete lack of consistency. She has relatives visit for weeks at a time or she visits them for weeks at a time when nothing gets done. Here a couple months ago she was talking about how she got onto him because he had not done any reading for a few weeks. I guess now she is expecting him to schedule and complete his schooling on his own. On Math there is no program or plan, no standard progression of skills. They sometimes think of random problems for him to solve and write them out. On writing I think she sometimes has him write sentences, when they think of it.

 

Now, for the following year she says she doesn't want to hs as there is nothing but fights between them. Her dh doesn't want to send them to public but they cannot afford private. So, now dh is saying he wants to take him to work with him- (he is a College Chemistry professor). I worry though as I don't think he will be able to do this all the time, for obvious reasons and then again the lack of consistency. He has no ideas about programs and such and it seems they jump all over the place.

 

It is obvious that they are intelligent people- her dh has a Doctorate and she has a Bachelor's. So, it is not a question of whether or not they are smart enough. It is a question of a total lack of any consistency at all and the jumping all over the place. As I also said I think part of the behavior issue with schooling is due to some learning issues, whereas she just blames it all on him being a bad kid, which doesn't get them anywhere.

 

I have tried to gently and not so gently say things at times. When she told me he got in trouble for not doing his reading I told her that was not his job- she cannot expect him to do what she does not do. She cannot expect him to do school spontaneously on his own when she doesn't even make the time for it herself. She says well he should know and we have to have high standards. I think the standards are hypocritical when you expect more of your 8 yo than yourself. We have a very open relationship, she would rather me say what I think but I don't know if it warrants more or not. I think it would be good for him to get a hearing and vision eval- that has never been done at all. At this point I think some kind of ed screening would be helpful so they can determine what kinds of programs would be helpful to him. She has went through various ones and they don't work out- I'm not sure if that is due to her lack of consistency or his learning issues.

 

The one thing they have always done is lots of reading to him. Although as of late I haven't heard her talk about it.

 

I also think that she doesn't like the situation but doesn't see a way out and is tired of the fighting. Her dh doing all the schooling isn't a workable solution, well, as of yet he has threatened to take it over several times and is never consistent either. As of this point as well someone could easily charge them with ed. neglect and she would have no proof otherwise. No, records of any kind are kept and he couldn't pass anywhere close to grade level on most things I would guess.

 

thoughts? You think he will just catch up at some point?

Edited July 17, 2011 by soror

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, thing is....it's just none of your business. They seem to realize the issues in some of what they are doing. And they simply disagree with you on other issues. And you *have* spoken up. In the end, it's what they choose to do.

 

BTW, I've had friends who've dropped the ball on major issues (homeschooling, disciplining a challenging child, medical stuff, etc). It is maddening. In one situation, I simply couldn't be friends. In another, we just didn't talk about that issue. You need to find what will work for you on this.

[Soror]

I don't think we disagree though, from what she has said, I think she doesn't know how to make it happen. Her standards are higher than mine in a lot of regards. I well remember her talking about unschoolers and how bad it was and how she wouldn't be one of those parents with a kid not reading at such and such age - was it 9 or 10. I remember her as well telling me that I should tell her if something like that happens. As I said it is very open relationship. She expects me to tell her such things.

[LaxMom]

Well, thing is....it's just none of your business. They seem to realize the issues in some of what they are doing. And they simply disagree with you on other issues. And you *have* spoken up. In the end, it's what they choose to do.

 

BTW, I've had friends who've dropped the ball on major issues (homeschooling, disciplining a challenging child, medical stuff, etc). It is maddening. In one situation, I simply couldn't be friends. In another, we just didn't talk about that issue. You need to find what will work for you on this.

 

:iagree: you've already communicated your thoughts. Unlike the 8 year old, your friends are grownups and the onus is theirs to pursue information and decide whether interventions or changes are appropriate.

 

(which never, ever keeps me from stewing on parenting situations where I feel like the children are being done a disservice, but I do remind myself that, at the end of the day, it's just not my business or decision to make)

[LaxMom]

I don't think we disagree though, from what she has said, I think she doesn't know how to make it happen. Her standards are higher than mine in a lot of regards. I well remember her talking about unschoolers and how bad it was and how she wouldn't be one of those parents with a kid not reading at such and such age - was it 9 or 10. I remember her as well telling me that I should tell her if something like that happens. As I said it is very open relationship. She expects me to tell her such things.

 

So, she expects you to be her grownup? That doesn't sound like a high standard to me. It sounds like a lack of responsibility. You are supposed to tell her. Her 8 yo is supposed to just know. What is HER perceived role in all this?

[Pamela H in Texas]

I remember her as well telling me that I should tell her if something like that happens. As I said it is very open relationship. She expects me to tell her such things.

 

And you have. She knew anyways. Seriously, you will drive yourself batty (and possibly her too), if you stew on this too much. Fact is, they have the right to drop the ball.

[SunD]

Well, it might be that she's just not seeing it, because she's blind when it comes to her child. Some parents are like that. It's possible that she sees it but it is denial. Or maybe she's a planner but not a doer. She could have grand plans about living math, Charlotte Mason-style language arts, etc, but be unable to actually begin implementing it. It's impossible to know what's in her mind right now.

 

I guess, if that were my friend and we were as close as you stated, I would ask her to lunch or something (no kids, so we could have a real discussion) and gently bring up that past conversation. Something like "I wanted to ask if you still feel the same way about unschooling," and go from there. If she does still expect you to be open and honest, I would feel that was honoring the friendship. But if she blows it off, I would say her expectations have changed and not bring it up again unless she asks for help or advice.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

Edited November 22, 2012 by Shari
Oops!! obvious typo. Sorry!

[Laurie4b]

I don't think we disagree though, from what she has said, I think she doesn't know how to make it happen. Her standards are higher than mine in a lot of regards. I well remember her talking about unschoolers and how bad it was and how she wouldn't be one of those parents with a kid not reading at such and such age - was it 9 or 10. I remember her as well telling me that I should tell her if something like that happens. As I said it is very open relationship. She expects me to tell her such things.

 

If I had that kind of relationship with someone, I would revisit it a little later. Give her some space first. She may be thinking about what you said the last time.

 

I think one thing that could be helpful is saying out loud what you've said here: "I know that you have high standards, yet something is keeping you from doing what you think is best for your son. Do you know what that is? " In other words, open it up but listen for what keeps her from doing what she thinks is right. Ask her what she thinks her options are for getting around whatever the obstacle is. Let her think it out--be very reluctant to offer solutions. Your role would be to get her thinking. I think it's okay to offer realism as you did when you challenged her about expecting the child to homeschool himself when she can't bring herself to do it. But otherwise, refrain from being judgmental about any options she might choose--like public school.

 

It sounds from your description like it's a marital conflict. (She doesn't want to hs; Dad wants her to hs. She watches the gluten; Dad doesn't believe in it, etc.)

 

I would only do this if I were as close as you seem to be and have that type of relationship. But if I did, I would pursue it gently. You do risk the relationship, though. You'd have to be okay with that.

[Dobela]

I have a friend who is similar. She calls herself an Unschooler, and schedules herself and her kids so full of outside stuff that practically no academic work gets done (the Price Is Right for Math, anyone??). She's also one of those who constantly spits out the line about "Well, at least they're better off than they'd be at pubic school!" (um, really?) It drives me C.R.A.Z.Y.

 

However, she's not asked my opinion and seems convinced that her children will be ready for college when/if they decide to go. How this will happen, I have no idea. The times I've tried to talk to her about the subject, she closes down right away. This is a very intelligent lady -- like your friend -- so it is not so much a question of can't as won't.

 

It's very frustrating to sit on the sidelines and watch as years and years go down the drain and those kids get further and further behind. But I think this is a boundaries issue. Short of offering to tutor the kid yourself (maybe you have a child the same age?), there's really not much you can do.

:iagree: Homeschooling takes lots of effort. Unschoolers who homeschool well put lots of effort into the education of their children even though it doesn't look like other methods. Others who don't take as much care and effort seem to just use unschooling as a label for their laziness.

 

I have a similar situation here. Both parents have PhDs and their idea of parenting is way, way different then my own. Finally I have had to distance myself from them. It was a very unhealthy, dysfunctional friendship that was draining me. I was constantly being told information or asked for advice and my responses were never taken seriously and I saw the kids suffering education wise.

[chiguirre]

As of this point as well someone could easily charge them with ed. neglect and she would have no proof otherwise. No, records of any kind are kept and he couldn't pass anywhere close to grade level on most things I would guess.

 

thoughts? You think he will just catch up at some point?

 

Given the symptoms you've listed, I'm pretty sure they would not be charged with educational neglect. Her ds would probably get enough dire diagnoses to justify his level of achievement. Are you sure that he hasn't been evaluated? Sometimes parents just don't want to accept their child's disabilities, don't tell even friends or family about them and try to carry on as normally as possible. I'm not sure you can help your friend, but this might help you to adjust your expectations for her ds.

[Parrothead]

Is there anything you can do to help? Offer to help out with a schedule. Buy her a copy of TWTM. Offer to go with her to the doctor if she wants to have the child evaluated. Suggest that maybe her kiddo not be allowed to have the noodles at the Chinese restaurant.

 

There are all manner of little things a caring friend can do to get someone moving in the "right" direction. Ulitmately it is up to her and her dh, but you can gently make suggestions, offer to help or sit her down for an intervention. Just be prepared for that not to go too well.

[gingersmom]

I have felt that way many times about many homeschoolers, but I wouldn't ever say anything (unless asked). It's just not my business.

 

:iagree:

 

To me its no different than meeting a parent with a 4 year old child with a clear speech delay who has done nothing about it. While I would like to give them an earful and a swift kick in the rear its really not my business.

[....]

"Well, at least they're better off than they'd be at pubic school!"

 

:lol::lol::lol: I'm sorry, but so, so funny.

[pfamilygal]

Iabout "Well, at least they're better off than they'd be at pubic school!" (um, really?) It drives me C.R.A.Z.Y.

 

 

Well, maybe better off than in PUBIC school.

[NanceXToo]

Well, thing is....it's just none of your business. They seem to realize the issues in some of what they are doing. And they simply disagree with you on other issues. And you *have* spoken up. In the end, it's what they choose to do.

 

BTW, I've had friends who've dropped the ball on major issues (homeschooling, disciplining a challenging child, medical stuff, etc). It is maddening. In one situation, I simply couldn't be friends. In another, we just didn't talk about that issue. You need to find what will work for you on this.

 

:iagree:

[MelanieM]

The next time the subject comes up, I would ask "do you want my honest opinion?" and if she said yes, I'd give it. Obviously I'd be kind about it, but if someone was really telling me they wanted to know my thoughts and ideas on a subject, then I'd feel confident in offering that up. So unless you think she's likely to be telling you she wants your opinion when she really doesn't, that's the way I'd suggest handling it.

[Crimson Wife]

Maybe gently bring up the possibility of enrollment in a virtual school? That would bring a level of outside accountability and also special ed services if they are warranted.

[butterflymommy]

:iagree:

 

To me its no different than meeting a parent with a 4 year old child with a clear speech delay who has done nothing about it. While I would like to give them an earful and a swift kick in the rear its really not my business.

 

It's a tricky situation because some children really do take off, catch up, and develop on their own. My son did not talk until he was five, did not use sentences until he was six, was not remotely understandable until he was 8. He speaks well now at age 14 and has an incredible vocabulary. He never received any speech therapy.

 

The same could apply to the boy the OP describes. Maybe he is being done a disservice by his parents. Or maybe, once he starts reading, he will zoom ahead and catch up. My daughter did not read well until she was 10 and now is a voracious reader. (We did endless instruction with her-- nothing seemed to help until it suddenly "clicked.") I don't believe in just leaving kids to their own academic amends, but there is only so far a child can be pushed. If he is not reading yet, the mum probably feels her hands are tied. It is a very scary and frustrating feeling to have an "older" child who can't read. Chances are, though, that it will suddenly click for him, particularly with 2 very intelligent parents in what I assume is a highly literate household.

[Greenmama2]

.

 

It sounds from your description like it's a marital conflict. (She doesn't want to hs; Dad wants her to hs. She watches the gluten; Dad doesn't believe in it, etc.)

that.

:iagree:

[Impish]

Have you ever felt someone wasn't doing "enough" hs'ing wise?

 

Yeah. Me. :glare:

[Mrs Mungo]

I graduated high school with kids who couldn't read, and I attended decent schools. Attending public school isn't a cure all. He might not learn any more in a public school setting.

[wapiti]

I'd probably say something more, especially considering your open relationship and the mom's explicit desire for guidance generally. I might try to put it as an off-hand remark, or thinking out loud... I'm not sure. I'd be very careful not to sound disapproving or blaming, but suggesting (which can be tricky, depending on the person, because some people might take suggestions as criticism).

 

Could she be in denial because she might fear that he's not very bright, if she doesn't realize a person can both be bright and have LDs? I'd probably come right out and say that I see a red flag for LDs where a child of bright parents (like them) is struggling (like he is). I might suggest an evaluation by someone who tests twice-exceptional kids. And of course if you happened to know of such psych in your area, I might even throw that in ("I heard so-and-so had her child tested with so-and-so, and found out these interesting things about how her child learns"). Maybe with the right language, twice-exceptional, or 2E, she might be curious enough to google a bit? I'd also suggest ruling out vision.

 

Does she "talk curriculum" ever? I'd probably talk about what I was using for math and what other people were using (I'd blab away about the choices, LOL; blab-blab-blab - I would not be able to keep my mouth shut; maybe I'd do it almost as though I were talking to myself; and depending on her reaction I might even throw in "maybe Jake would like that one, because... blab blab blab").

 

The next time the academic discipline issue comes up (such as when she complains that he's not doing anything), I'd probably also say what I think are reasonable expectations for the child's age and suggest sitting with him while he does the work, or at least during portions of the work. I might ask her how she schedules things out, whether she has daily or weekly checklists, etc. I might throw in that I use a spreadsheet or such-and-such planner or notebook, etc., or talk about the various ways you've seen others handle things.

 

that's my two cents :)

Edited July 17, 2011 by wapiti

[Soror]

If I ask her if she wants my honest opinion she will say yes, she always does.

 

I don't know what the 'right' answer is but I do think/know fairly sure that if things don't change she is going to be more disappointed in herself and upset. It is obvious though that what they are doing/not doing isn't working, she is miserable at it, her dh is upset and ds is mad and not learning. It is a miserable situation for all.

 

I guess the big question is how can I help her/them? What would be of help? Personally, at his age considering everything I think an eval would be good to see if they are even headed the right direction and if he needs different sources or a different angle. I am suspicious that it part of the problem and the lack of knowing is causing unneeded problems and stress.

[Soror]

I'd probably say something more, especially considering your open relationship and the mom's explicit, desire for guidance generally. I might try to put it as an off-hand remark, or thinking out loud... I'm not sure. I'd be very careful not to sound disapproving or blaming, but suggesting (which can be tricky, depending on the person, because some people might take suggestions as criticism).

 

Could she be in denial because she might fear that he's not very bright, if she doesn't realize a person can both be bright and have LDs? I'd probably come right out and say that I see a red flag for LDs where a child of bright parents (like them) is struggling (like he is). I might suggest an evaluation by someone who tests twice-exceptional kids. And of course if you happened to know of such psych in your area, I might even throw that in ("I heard so-and-so had her child tested with so-and-so, and found out these interesting things about how her child learns"). Maybe with the right language, twice-exceptional, or 2E, she might be curious enough to google a bit? I'd also suggest ruling out vision.

 

Does she "talk curriculum" ever? I'd probably talk about what I was using for math and what other people were using (I'd blab away about the choices, LOL; blab-blab-blab - I would not be able to keep my mouth shut; maybe I'd do it almost as though I were talking to myself; and depending on her reaction I might even throw in "maybe Jake would like that one, because... blab blab blab").

 

The next time the academic discipline issue comes up (such as when she complains that he's not doing anything), I'd probably also say what I think are reasonable expectations for the child's age and suggest sitting with him while he does the work, or at least during portions of the work. I might ask her how she schedules things out, whether she has daily or weekly checklists, etc. I might throw in that I use a spreadsheet or such-and-such planner or notebook, etc., or talk about the various ways you've seen others handle things.

 

that's my two cents :)

 

Good thoughts!

 

I have tried some of those. In the past she talked curriculum a lot but not so much anymore. Now it is to the point that I think she doesn't want to talk about it because it just reminds her of what they are not doing and the issues there, which stinks for me as I want someone to talk about it with! I have suggested other things. I was the one who suggested the I See Sam as they were having great difficultiey s with what they were using and not making any progress. It seems that they do make some progress when they are done but they are just so sporadic with it.

 

I wish I knew a Dr in their area, I had thought about testing for mine but have ruled it out at this time. Maybe it is even more of an issue of denial with her dh as he just can blame it on her not doing it "right." Of course with the lack of instruction it is hard to say exactly.

 

Yes, the expectations for his age are entirely unrealistic. The readers she is using have to be done with a parent there giving instruction. They cannot be done on their own, so how she expected that he do that without her I don't know.

 

Perhaps as a pp stated an online academy might work. I hadn't thought of suggesting that. It would take the stress off of her so much, she would just need to make sure he was compliant. Obviously if there are issues there then it won't fix that but I would hope that it would help it come to light more.

 

I do think there is some denial about some issues. Just as there was denial about him not talking. I don't know why but it seems easier just to blame it all on him being a bad kid. It was the same with the gluten and behavior- it took me 2 yrs to convince her to look into other issues for his behavior- I knew it was not in the realm of normal. Now, she sees it obviously and so does her dh but he does not seem to comprehend what strict elimination means and doesn't see the necessity.

Edited July 17, 2011 by soror

[redsquirrel]

It's not going to change due to anything you say. She might agree with you etc, but it's not going to change.

 

My advice to you is to start challenging yourself to keep your mouth shut when tempted to offer up an opinion. As a friend told me, get a glass of water and sip it until the feeling passes. If you are directly asked, put it back to her in the form of a question, "what do you want to do" or something like that.

 

I really do understand your frustration and all I can tell you is the more you keep your mouth shut, the less you have to hear about it and the better you will feel. It has taken me a couple years to get to this point, with a couple relapses, but I am much happier this way. Go home and vent to a different friend or your husband.

 

It's not your job to fix it.

[spaceman]

I would probably focus on suggesting an evaluation.

[Teachin'Mine]

I haven't read through the responses, but it sounds like she either thinks she's doing enough or is totally clueless. If she's just ignorant about what is available to help homeschoolers, then I would suggest just providing her with some information on sites she can look up, curricula, evaluation avenues and things like that. Then I'd drop it. If she's interested, she'll ask you more about it or for some help. If not, then it's probably by choice that she's not doing more.

[4wildberrys]

I think you should not get too involved and try to help out---especially since it sounds like no matter what advice you give, your friend doesn't take it. Some people are like this---always asking for honest 'help' but never taking the constant advice given. This is a doomed friendship and situation if you take their personal family problems too seriously. Guaranteed. It really is none of your business and certainly not your business to stress about---and I say that with all due respect. All your advice giving will most likely end the friendship with your friend feeling judged and possibly getting hostile about it. How do I know? I just ended a VERY long friendship with someone exactly like this. It was draining and dysfunctional and I am the one who ended up looking like the judgemental bad friend---even though I was ALWAYS asked for the advice and help :glare:

[myfunnybunch]

I know a family who did have their children removed from their legal (though not physical) custody. The children were placed in public school by the court, and there were a host of other requirements the family had to fill before they finally regained full custody. One child did have learning disabilities. It was an unusual set of circumstances that led to child protective service involvement, so it's not likely to happen to happen to your friend, but it is possible. The matter has been resolved but it was an awful ordeal.

 

I didn't say anything to my friend because I wasn't asked and didn't know the mom well enough at the time to speak up without being asked. I guess I did say "What if you try..." if she brought up her worries, but nothing changed and I don't regret not saying more because I don't think it could have been heard at that time.

 

IMO, because you know your friend so well, you might bring it up one more time in whatever way she might be able to hear you best. Preface it with, "I know you want me to always be honest with you," and have information ready, like the name of someone to evaluate the child, to offer if she wants it. If she hears you, great. If she doesn't, then be a support to her if you can stand it and let things go if you can't.

 

Cat

[Janie Grace]

Yes. We have family that falls into this category. They have a family business (farm) and the children have so many chores related to this that they don't have time for much school. I think their goal is for the boys to grow up and farm and for the girls to marry and bear children. No, I do not say anything; we have wildly different paradigms/goals for our children, so it would be moot.

 

However, if I had a friend who I knew wanted to be hitting a certain bar but couldn't, I'd try to help her... watch her kids so she could have a planning day or overnight, talk about strategies/curricula/etc, whatever... but only if she was open about her goals and was frustrated that she was falling short. In your situation, I wouldn't say anything.

[elizabeth]

Is there anything you can do to help? Offer to help out with a schedule. Buy her a copy of TWTM. Offer to go with her to the doctor if she wants to have the child evaluated. Suggest that maybe her kiddo not be allowed to have the noodles at the Chinese restaurant.

 

There are all manner of little things a caring friend can do to get someone moving in the "right" direction. Ulitmately it is up to her and her dh, but you can gently make suggestions, offer to help or sit her down for an intervention. Just be prepared for that not to go too well.

 

Your suggestions are loving, supportive and responsive. Well stated.

[Pretty in Pink]

If I were you and she solicited advice on a specific issue, I would offer my opinion. It seems that you have put a lot of thought into this, which is very kind of you, but IMO you are wasting your time and energy because she doesn't sound receptive to your advice.

 

She is the child's parent. She is a grown-up. If and when she decides that a change is really needed she will do *something* to make that change happen. That is her responsibility, not yours. Really. It is not your responsibility.

[Soror]

Is there anything you can do to help? Offer to help out with a schedule. Buy her a copy of TWTM. Offer to go with her to the doctor if she wants to have the child evaluated. Suggest that maybe her kiddo not be allowed to have the noodles at the Chinese restaurant.

 

There are all manner of little things a caring friend can do to get someone moving in the "right" direction. Ulitmately it is up to her and her dh, but you can gently make suggestions, offer to help or sit her down for an intervention. Just be prepared for that not to go too well.

 

I missed this. I have tried in those little things- to be physically there is hard as we live 2 hrs apart. She knows about the food, it is a matter of the dh though, and I feel all I can do on that is offer commiseration and complain with her.

 

I do talk to her about schedules and curriculum. I have tried to make suggestions I think would be helpful in those regards. It has just come up naturally as I have worried about my own. Thinking now though I think the online academy might be the best option for them. TWTM would be too much, I know it would, I think it would just cause more discouragement.

 

I guess at this point I feel like I have tried the little things- we do talk about all of those things. We are wired differently though and it seems that what helps me in regards to organization does not do anything for her. I cannot figure out how to help in that department because I cannot understand exactly what is the issue. She had help at one time or another with the house but it seems not to make a difference. As she is always chronically behind in the cleaning as well.

 

It is a big mess and I know it is bothering her more and more but the solution, I don't know. I am thinking now of what else I might could offer that would be of help and I appreciate the thoughts here for brainstorming.

[Soror]

If I were you and she solicited advice on a specific issue, I would offer my opinion. It seems that you have put a lot of thought into this, which is very kind of you, but IMO you are wasting your time and energy because she doesn't sound receptive to your advice.

 

She is the child's parent. She is a grown-up. If and when she decides that a change is really needed she will do *something* to make that change happen. That is her responsibility, not yours. Really. It is not your responsibility.

I know that is true but I feel that I must do all I can to help though as I think she would have a hard time living with herself. It would be one thing if they were a happy and content unschool family but they aren't, everyone is miserable and they want it to be different, it is just figuring out how to change it and what needs to be changed.

[Word Nerd]

She's also one of those who constantly spits out the line about "Well, at least they're better off than they'd be at public school!" (um, really?)

 

 

I know of someone whose motto is "The worst day of homeschooling is still better than the best day of public school." I realize that a lot of homeschoolers would agree with that sentiment, and depending on the homeschool and the school in question, I would agree. But it's almost as if there is a weird belief of some homeschoolers that homeschooling magically gives kids a good education, regardless of how it is done.

[wapiti]

to be physically there is hard as we live 2 hrs apart.

 

I know that is true but I feel that I must do all I can to help though as I think she would have a hard time living with herself. It would be one thing if they were a happy and content unschool family but they aren't, everyone is miserable and they want it to be different, it is just figuring out how to change it and what needs to be changed.

 

Another thought - if she hasn't already, can she come visit for a day or an overnight, with her ds? Maybe if she were in your house, and could see and hold things like various curricula, your schedule/planner, etc., she might be able to see herself doing things diffrerently. Sometimes a visual approach helps a lot - I know it did for me, when we were thinking about hs-ing, and I visited a hs-ing friend and looked around her schoolroom - a picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe she could even watch you do some teaching.

 

ETA: also, on the eval issue, you could work into the conversation about how you were considering some testing of your dc, and talk about the factors that might be involved in such a decision, such as the child not performing at a level that would be expected, what would be "normal," etc.

Edited July 17, 2011 by wapiti

[celticmom]

Something that she could try that would not be as large or expensive of a commitment as a virtual school would be Time 4 Learning and if that goes well she could use a virtual school. Another option for outside accountability in reading and math would be a Kumon center if there is one nearby. Time 4 Learning can be done independently by the child even at lower levels and Kumon can be done mostly independently once the child is past Junior Kumon.

[catz]

I personally wouldn't say anything. Maybe their approach is more "unschooly" in nature. What we do looks a whole lot more laid back that what plenty of people here do and I guess I'd be annoyed if anyone tried to say my method of homeschooling isn't "right". It's right for me and my kids right now and as time goes on we'll modify where needed. My kids are well ahead of grade level in general, so I don't stress it too much. I have a neighbor that unschools who's daughter that just turned 7 and barely knows her alphabet. She's a happy, creative kid and I wouldn't dream of saying anything. We play with them every week and we're not even close to each other on the homeschooling philosophy spectrum.

 

You've already gently hinted and if she asks for your thoughts or advice I'd give it. But I'd let it stand. He's only 8, so they have some time to figure this whole thing out.

[amey311]

I've known lots of people who, because they had been reading for SO long, had completely forgotten that letter names and sounds did not come naturally. I'm sure there are some kids that pick up and learn to read JUST by being read to (Thing 2 is one of those kids). Others really need to be taught those things - the letters are just random symbols. B saying "buh" is not a hardwired thing.

 

I did a student teaching placement in a lovely kindergarten. During Parent Orientation before school started, the teachers had a poster printed up with a daily message that was printed in that WingDings font. So, each symbol did correspond to a specific letter, but to just look at it you wouldn't know it said "Good Morning! Today it is ________. We will do ___________. " Or whatever. The teachers explained that for most children - this is what it's like to learn to read. Also - being able to say the names of the letters doesn't mean your child can read. I had a parent tell me her child knew all the letters of the alphabet. She did - to sing it. She didn't recognize any letters in print, not her own name, etc. The mom assumed that because she could say the letters, then she knew what they looked like and knew the sounds they made. :001_huh:

 

Maybe something like that would be a help in understanding that just telling a child to "go read" won't work until the child has actually acquired the skills needed to read.

[Pretty in Pink]

I know that is true but I feel that I must do all I can to help though as I think she would have a hard time living with herself. It would be one thing if they were a happy and content unschool family but they aren't, everyone is miserable and they want it to be different, it is just figuring out how to change it and what needs to be changed.

 

I didn't get that impression from your OP, but you know her better than I do so I'll take your word for it.

 

The thing is, when someone wants to make a change, they do. Or they make the effort at least. What is she doing to make a change? Is she borrowing homeschooling books from the library? Is she browsing these boards or other online forums looking for solutions? Has she taken any of your advice in the past? What is she doing aside from generally complaining that things aren't going well? (Maybe you addressed these questions already in this thread).

 

Those are the things that I would be doing if I felt my homeschooling efforts were unsuccessful. I would be reading, I would be networking, I would be earnestly seeking the input of experienced homeschoolers, researching curriculum, reevaluating my child's readiness, asking myself if there were possibly special needs that required attention.

 

If she is earnestly seeking your advice and open to your input then I would suggest any or all of the above.

[Colleen in NS]

I think she doesn't know how to make it happen.

 

She expects me to tell her such things.

 

It's not your job to fix it.

 

It is a big mess and I know it is bothering her more and more but the solution, I don't know.

 

The thing is, when someone wants to make a change, they do. Or they make the effort at least. What is she doing to make a change? Is she borrowing homeschooling books from the library? Is she browsing these boards or other online forums looking for solutions? Has she taken any of your advice in the past? What is she doing aside from generally complaining that things aren't going well? (Maybe you addressed these questions already in this thread).

 

:iagree:

 

soror, everything you have written so far gives me the impression of a woman who says she has high standards, but is not actually doing much about them. The doing is the harder part than the talking about it, and you cannot do it for her.

 

If it were me, I wouldn't even be bringing up homeschooling in our conversations. And if she did, I would only answer her questions, not try to suggest other things or counsel her in any other way. Unless she specifically asked for suggestions about specific issues. The possibility is that you will drive yourself nuts with trying to fix things for her.

 

But I apply that principle in general to my life - if someone isn't asking me for help on something, if they are just venting about it, I try not to "fix" their problems, same as I don't want people to fix mine unless I ask for help. I might ask, "You are venting - are you looking for some input from me, or do you just want to be heard today?" And then I accept their answer, no matter how much I might want to suggest a solution.

[elegantlion]

This is what it sounds like to me. They have a child that doesn't learn in the same fashion they do, they're frustrated, and not dealing with the real situation head on.

 

At 8 a reluctant reader will not sit down and read on his own. My ds didn't read well until at least 9. It was frustrating and a lot of work to know HOW to handle the situation and actually getting him to read. I had to be the one to set the limit at 30 minutes per day whether you want to or not (imagine gritted teeth here). It was hard to find books that interested him that he could read well.

 

I spent a lot of time researching learning disabilities, other learning styles, etc. At 8 dh was not ready to hear that his son might have a learning disability. So I did the research and framed all my findings in a way dh wouldn't feel hurt or defensive, and that ds could understand.

 

It sounds like she may need to do more research into HOW to teach her child, HOW to be consistent when you're busy with life, and HOW to set realistic goals for your individual child. With an 8 year old student homeschooling itself shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours per day, but what goes on behind the scenes may take a full time effort.

 

I'd try to stay out of it mostly, but maybe recommend a few good encouraging educational type books, not specific curricula.

[mommaduck]

Well, thing is....it's just none of your business. They seem to realize the issues in some of what they are doing. And they simply disagree with you on other issues. And you *have* spoken up. In the end, it's what they choose to do.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[LaxMom]

I didn't get that impression from your OP, but you know her better than I do so I'll take your word for it.

 

The thing is, when someone wants to make a change, they do. Or they make the effort at least. What is she doing to make a change? Is she borrowing homeschooling books from the library? Is she browsing these boards or other online forums looking for solutions? Has she taken any of your advice in the past? What is she doing aside from generally complaining that things aren't going well? (Maybe you addressed these questions already in this thread).

 

Those are the things that I would be doing if I felt my homeschooling efforts were unsuccessful. I would be reading, I would be networking, I would be earnestly seeking the input of experienced homeschoolers, researching curriculum, reevaluating my child's readiness, asking myself if there were possibly special needs that required attention.

 

If she is earnestly seeking your advice and open to your input then I would suggest any or all of the above.

 

I totally agree. It's one thing to give suggestions freely to someone interested in gathering information. It's quite another to take on the responsibility for their homeschooling yourself. And that is what you are doing.

 

I don't buy it when people just "can't live with <themselves>" and continue to do the same thing that's not working. They can perfectly well live with themselves, they just have the understanding that their actions/inactions are not up to snuff and make the appropriate social noises to head off judgment.

[WIS0320]

And you have. She knew anyways. Seriously, you will drive yourself batty (and possibly her too), if you stew on this too much. Fact is, they have the right to drop the ball.

 

I'm a new homeschooler (my oldest is starting first grade) so I am ready to be put in my place because I'm sure it is coming my way. :tongue_smilie: I have to say that I have seen this idea promoted heavily here on the forums and at various homeschooling boards around the 'net.

 

I just can't believe that this is a common and accepted part of the homeschooling world. I think it is one thing for parents to NOT push too hard if they are offering something, but to believe it is their right as parents to deny their child an education because they are lazy, not equipped, etc.? I just can't buy that. What about the rights of the child in question who is not being well-served educationally? Doesn't the child matter at all?

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I just really find this attitude puzzling. It is like homeschoolers circle the wagons and protect their own no matter what. Is there any time in which enough is enough and the child becomes the focus and not the parent? I understand there are a multitude of homeschooling styles and some produce earlier "fruit" than other academically speaking but parents who do absolutely nothing for their child should be held accountable. Denying children an education seems almost abusive to me.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Drexel, we talk like this because it is a helpless situation in most cases. As others have pointed out, children emerge from public school with no marketable skills or measurable knowledge all the time. (Not all kids, not all schools, of course, but sitting in the ps for 12 years does not guarantee a good education.)

 

And what is the default (and only) solution if a homeschooling parent educationally neglects her child? Public school. Well, what if they've BTDT and ps was a failure for that child? Is he really worse off at home, then?

 

It stinks when any school fails, whether public, private, or home-based. Children have a right to be educated, but that doesn't mean that all children will be educated. It is not a perfect world.

 

:(

 

And we can't police our own because we have no governing body. We have no agency above local laws, either. Laws vary from state to state, and besides that, every single homeschool in the world is unique. When I look into another hs'ers situation, I might be appalled but they might be thrilled. And vice versa. So many ideologies, methods, and goals. All we can realistically do is encourage each other to do our best.

[T'smom]

The next time the subject comes up, I would ask "do you want my honest opinion?" and if she said yes, I'd give it. Obviously I'd be kind about it, but if someone was really telling me they wanted to know my thoughts and ideas on a subject, then I'd feel confident in offering that up. So unless you think she's likely to be telling you she wants your opinion when she really doesn't, that's the way I'd suggest handling it.

 

:iagree:

 

Or say, "Do you want help with this or do you just want to vent?"

[Harriet Vane]

I'm a new homeschooler (my oldest is starting first grade) so I am ready to be put in my place because I'm sure it is coming my way. :tongue_smilie: I have to say that I have seen this idea promoted heavily here on the forums and at various homeschooling boards around the 'net.

 

I just can't believe that this is a common and accepted part of the homeschooling world. I think it is one thing for parents to NOT push too hard if they are offering something, but to believe it is their right as parents to deny their child an education because they are lazy, not equipped, etc.? I just can't buy that. What about the rights of the child in question who is not being well-served educationally? Doesn't the child matter at all?

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I just really find this attitude puzzling. It is like homeschoolers circle the wagons and protect their own no matter what. Is there any time in which enough is enough and the child becomes the focus and not the parent? I understand there are a multitude of homeschooling styles and some produce earlier "fruit" than other academically speaking but parents who do absolutely nothing for their child should be held accountable. Denying children an education seems almost abusive to me.

 

 

First, I should say that I dealt with an unhappy homeschooler situation personally. Someone close to me was claiming to be homeschooling but absolutely NEVER doing it. I was very close to the family and the situation, and the mother was totally honest with me about their lack of schooling. It was a situation that caused me worry and agony for years. Ultimately, this woman was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Her daily struggles and "drifting" suddenly made sense in light of the tumor. She suffered for years before dying this past January. She was dear to me, and I was terribly saddened to see her suffering. Her children were eventually placed in public school. Even with the lack of schooling and pain and chaos, all five of the kids have thrived in school from the first--a true answer to prayer.

 

I tell you this because I want you to understand that I have spent years agonizing over the questions of what is right in a situation like this.

 

On the OPs friend:

 

Legally yes, she has that right.

 

Morally it's not a good choice, but the fact is that she does have the right to parent in the best way she sees fit. Parents in ALL educational settings do sometimes choose to continue with choices that negatively impact their children, all the while wringing their hands about it.

 

I would be cautious about throwing around words like "abusive." The fact is that those that have survived real abuse--beatings, starvation, being molested--find it very difficult to understand how our society can label unhappy choices as "abusive." True abuse is hell on earth. The OPs friend is certainly struggling, but nothing in the OPs posts give me any reason to frame any part of this discussion as "abuse."

[MeganW]

Another thought - if she hasn't already, can she come visit for a day or an overnight, with her ds? Maybe if she were in your house, and could see and hold things like various curricula, your schedule/planner, etc., she might be able to see herself doing things diffrerently. Sometimes a visual approach helps a lot - I know it did for me, when we were thinking about hs-ing, and I visited a hs-ing friend and looked around her schoolroom - a picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe she could even watch you do some teaching.

 

ETA: also, on the eval issue, you could work into the conversation about how you were considering some testing of your dc, and talk about the factors that might be involved in such a decision, such as the child not performing at a level that would be expected, what would be "normal," etc.

 

That was exactly my thought! Maybe they could come for a visit for a week or something. I wouldn't phrase it as "come and learn how to do it", but rather "let's do something fun for us and the kids - come visit - bring your school stuff & we'll school together in the morning then have fun in the afternoons".