Stacie Leigh Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) I just got a phone call from my pediatrician's office. She officially discharged us from the practice saying that my children are no longer welcome to be seen there due to a company policy that demands that all patients be up to date on vaccines as in the schedule suggested by the CDC. We delay vaccinations and always have. This doctor has been seeing us for over 6 years and has been the only pediatrician my younger 3 have had. She is the mother of 3 children, who are close to the ages of my own, which made me very comfortable with her. She's never argued with my vaccine decisions and she advocates a family bed, breastfeeding and child led weaning. She keeps her mouth shut about circumcision unless she's asked, but when she is asked, she discourages it. We practice some of those options here and there, but do not fully adhere to any of those views and she's never had a problem with it. Overall, I've seen her as more "extreme" in her parenting style than I am so this is coming as a shock to me. (Granted I live in Pittsburgh, PA... The city is known for being stodgy and old fashioned, so what is "extreme" here may be run of the mill in other communities.) She has switched practices a couple of times due to her previous practices dissolving when a partner moved away or something and we've followed her each time. We've been at the new practice for nearly 2 years and just today the administrator called to discharge us and I'm sure I know the reason... Just days ago, I called to request paperwork showing that my son had been seen for his scheduled check ups and was healthy so that I could file it with my school district. Apparently whomever went over his paperwork in the office (and mailed me the report saying that he is up to date and healthy) raised a red flag that DS was not up to date on his vaccinations. The assistant that took my request was confused (or just being difficult?) about why I didn't have a form with school letterhead or a school number they should fax the documents to. I had to clarify more than once that I was homeschooling but still needed the documents to file with my school district. (It's our first mandated reporting year and that is one of the requirements.) I truly, truly hope that my decision to homeschool my children did not affect their decision to eject us from the practice. I would think not, but the timing is suspect. According to the manager, it is against company policy to see children that are not up to date. This was NEVER communicated to me including when we filled out applications and medical histories for the new practice. Nothing has changed over the last two years except that someone there became uncomfortable. I'm very sad. I was delighted with our pediatrician and she was gentle and thorough. I imagined the children seeing her throughout their entire youth and considered that a great benefit because she would know them and notice any changes or anything out of the ordinary. The administrator kept repeating that it is my choice when and if we vaccinate, but it is their choice not to see us anymore. I do agree, but at the same time, how much of a "choice" is it if no one in the area will see them?? It almost becomes forced vaccination in order to receive medical care at that point! ***Please graciously refrain from using this thread as an opportunity to debate vaccine use. Our choice is not an ignorant one and our situation is conducive to our choice as my children do not attend traditional school or daycare and I practice extended breastfeeding and follow dietary recommendations to ensure strong bodies and healthy immune systems. I am in NO WAY suggesting that it is wrong to vaccinate children. My two dearest friends vaccinate on schedule. ETA: The administrator was clear that my doctor DOES know about the situation. She said my doc is sad but it's company policy and that is that. Edited July 6, 2011 by Stacie Leigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It was probably 'fine' until the 'wrong' person noticed. It seems like doctors are sometimes 'stuck' with dealing with their own offices, kwim? I'd even guess your doctor might not even know you've been 'fired'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Can you talk to the dr? That is what I would do. However, you are looking at someone who was discharged from a pediatric practice for nonpayment of a $10 charge. They would not research what I believe was a $400 overpayment I was pressured to make and I withheld this other payment hoping they would finally help me. Oh well. Not that I am still bitter or anything. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unicorn. Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 :grouphug: That really stinks! I think I would be trying to get on the phone w/ the ped. herself, and see if she can clarify some things for you as to why, and maybe recomend someone who doesn't have a problem w/ it. Or, just move to Texas, and then you don't have to report to anyone, and you can not vaccinate to your hearts content. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'd even guess your doctor might not even know you've been 'fired'. :iagree: I would call her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It sounds like the request for paperwork brought to the attention of the admin that your family isn't in compliance with that group's policy. I'd write a personal thank you note to your pediatrician, and express your sorrow over being discharged. I'd also ask her to keep you in mind if she's ever at a new, more flexible place. You never know... Anyway, :grouphug:. That's really disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacie Leigh Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 It was probably 'fine' until the 'wrong' person noticed. It seems like doctors are sometimes 'stuck' with dealing with their own offices, kwim? I'd even guess your doctor might not even know you've been 'fired'. The administrator says my doctor is aware and feels bad but it's company policy and that's that. I KNOW other people that go there and delay so I asked her what exactly the standard is since I know they don't can people the second they don't show up for an appointment. She was vague in answering which is part of what bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacie Leigh Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 It sounds like the request for paperwork brought to the attention of the admin that your family isn't in compliance with that group's policy. I'd write a personal thank you note to your pediatrician, and express your sorrow over being discharged. I'd also ask her to keep you in mind if she's ever at a new, more flexible place. You never know... Anyway, :grouphug:. That's really disturbing. I do plan to write her a note like the one you described. I want her to know that we had looked forward to our children having the comfort of seeing the same doctor throughout all of their growing years. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasmommy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) :grouphug: I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I know how difficult it can be to find a good pediatrician, after 10 years I'm still searching. I agree with others about attempting to contact the doctor directly. I might also go to the practice and stand there until they can clarify for you what schedule you need to be on. Edited July 5, 2011 by mmasmommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm so sorry. Policy or not, this was handled badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm so sorry. Policy or not, this was handled badly. :iagree: This. Totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I believe it is also an insurance thing. I've been seeing a doctor who had her own practice. (She has since closed to have a baby.) She explained to us that insurance companies determine what percentage of patients must be immunized. If a practice drops below that number, then the entire practice is penalized. The insurance will simply drop them as a provider and refuse to pay. I hope you can find a new doctor. I know how hard it is to find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakarimom5 Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I completely understand how you feel. When I decided not to vax anymore and asked one of the nurses about it, she said that I had to vax or find another doctor. The next time I was in the office I noticed new signs in every exam room saying that my ped will no longer see patients whose parents are "too selfish" to vaccinate! I feel that my phone call was the reason they put the signs up. I've been using this ped for 9 years. I, at least, have until Lili turns 6 to find a new ped. And I have a couple to chose from but they are all 30+ minutes away from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfatherslily Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm sorry, I know it's difficult to find a pediatrician who is okay with any deviation from the vaccination schedule:/ Our ped office had to get stricter a couple years ago because the children's hospital they are associated with pushed them to do it. I don't know details, but got the impression that it was not the fault of the individual doctors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasmommy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I completely understand how you feel. When I decided not to vax anymore and asked one of the nurses about it, she said that I had to vax or find another doctor. The next time I was in the office I noticed new signs in every exam room saying that my ped will no longer see patients whose parents are "too selfish" to vaccinate! I feel that my phone call was the reason they put the signs up. I've been using this ped for 9 years. I, at least, have until Lili turns 6 to find a new ped. And I have a couple to chose from but they are all 30+ minutes away from me. WOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 The administrator says my doctor is aware and feels bad but it's company policy and that's that. I KNOW other people that go there and delay so I asked her what exactly the standard is since I know they don't can people the second they don't show up for an appointment. She was vague in answering which is part of what bothered me. I would still ask to speak to the doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 This happens a lot. I have a male ped. who is OK with all the co-sleeping, breastfeeding, non-vax, delay vax, etc. stuff. That's how we live. (Note* It always makes me giggle out loud when someone considers co-sleeping and extended breastfeeding "extreme." How do they think most humans have lived throughout history? How do they think most humans in the planet live now?) Anyway, when my girls hit puberty they requested a female ped. He had only one to recommend who wouldn't throw a hissy about how we live (his adjective, not mine.) At the appointment she made her recommendations for seeing specialists (I'm very graeful for those) about my child's hair loss and migraines and then very politely explained that she does not take unvaccinated clients because she does not want to run the risk of one with a vaccine preventable disease exposing her other patients too young or immumo-suppressed to be vaccinated. She was very polite and friendly about it. I took no offense at all from it. It's her practice and she can do as she pleases in it. I expect to be able to live by convictions, and I would never ask anyone to stop living by theirs. My male ped rolls his eyes when other peds say this, because he has decades of experience with people who choose not to vax or delay vax schedules and knows it's not a problem. My daughters don't mind going back to him but say that if it's a female related issue they want to see a female doctor. (They were both there when we saw the female ped and understand.) So far we haven't needed to. If something comes up I'll call around to midwives and get them to recommend someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm sorry this happened, and I imagine it was very stressful. I am a make-my-own-calls kind of parent, too, and I'd be upset in your shoes. I do vaccinate, but have been selective, and I homebirthed and did other things against the tide. . . However, I imagine this will become more and more common. As more families have chosen not to vaccinate, rates of vaccine-preventable illnesses have gone up. Thus, doctors are having to think through it and many are determining that they have a moral and medical obligation to make their message heard: Vaccination is the only responsible choice. You might disagree, but that is their message. They know that many clients will just not listen (in one ear and out the other) to their medical judgment, and it is frightening, frustrating, and often malpractice to allow them on their merry way while medically neglecting their patients. So, the individual doctors or their corporate structures/boards/etc have decided that the only way to ensure a clear message is to make it a non-negotiable rule. Doctors are softies; sometimes they need management to help them enforce rules (even if they themselves have chosen/hire/fire this management). Doctors are seeing patients die due to illnessed they likely would not have gotten if there were adequate 'herd immunity'. I.e., babies too young for vaccination dying b/c of higher rates of vaccine-preventable illnesses in the community. When a doctor treats such a patient, and witnesses their death, their patience (for clients who make decisions which are unsound in their medical judgment) evaporates. When non-vaccinating families were a rarity, and vaccine-preventable deaths in the US were rare, doctors (like parents) had the luxury of nodding and smiling while the rare non-vaccinating family was in the office. This is changing. There is also significant liability to the doctor by facilitating non-vaccinated patients. When the healthy infant comes in for a routine appt and goes home with a vaccine-preventable illness caught from another patient, there is both ethical, legal, and moral liability on the doctor. *Especially* if the doctor has not done their best to minimize/avoid this potential transmission. In general, clients who are not medical doctors cannot effectively sign away their rights to sue you for malpractice. If it is malpractice (bad medicine) to not vaccinate on schedule, and the parent signs -- No I don't want the vaccine, blah, blah, blah, and the patient gets sick or dies anyway, then the client can totally come back and sue. "I didn't understand what I was doing! How am I supposed to know that pertussis could actually kill my kid (or my kid's baby sister)? I'm not a doctor!" The clients are very likely to win the lawsuit, making the doctor poorer, miserable, stressed, and risking their livelihood and license. Of course, *you* would not do such a thing, but I guarantee a dozen other clients in your doctor's practice would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It was probably 'fine' until the 'wrong' person noticed. It seems like doctors are sometimes 'stuck' with dealing with their own offices, kwim? I'd even guess your doctor might not even know you've been 'fired'.[/QUOTE] Totally agree - especially with what I've put in red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 In general, clients who are not medical doctors cannot effectively sign away their rights to sue you for malpractice. If it is malpractice (bad medicine) to not vaccinate on schedule, and the parent signs -- No I don't want the vaccine, blah, blah, blah, and the patient gets sick or dies anyway, then the client can totally come back and sue. "I didn't understand what I was doing! How am I supposed to know that pertussis could actually kill my kid (or my kid's baby sister)? I'm not a doctor!" The clients are very likely to win the lawsuit, making the doctor poorer, miserable, stressed, and risking their livelihood and license. Of course, *you* would not do such a thing, but I guarantee a dozen other clients in your doctor's practice would. Who told you this? My ped has non-vaxing parents sign a piece of paper that says he recommended that they vaccinate and they understood there there is a risk of injury of death if a child contracts a vaccine preventable disease. It's very similarly phrased the way the waiver for vaccines state that the child can be injured or die from the vaccine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 You said you delay vaccines. Does that mean you do or don't vaccinate? I assume it means you vaccinate, but don't vaccinated under a certain age and don't do 3 or 4 vaccines at once as the schedule most doctors follow says. Can you clarify, because if you do actually vaccinate but extend to time period between vaccines, your discussion when you try to get in a new practice is totally different than just "I don't vaccinate". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Who told you this? My ped has non-vaxing parents sign a piece of paper that says he recommended that they vaccinate and they understood there there is a risk of injury of death if a child contracts a vaccine preventable disease. It's very similarly phrased the way the waiver for vaccines state that the child can be injured or die from the vaccine. People can sue, and win even when they have signed a liability waiver. Unfortunately it happens all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smilesonly Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I have BT twice.:grouphug::grouphug: We no longer see Peds, we usually go to our Chiro 1st, and an older family dr 2nd. That policy would fall into discriminating for religious reasons, imho. I wouldn't even bother to try to talk to her, I would just move on and find yourself an older family doc, and even offer to sign a release form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 There is also significant liability to the doctor by facilitating non-vaccinated patients. When the healthy infant comes in for a routine appt and goes home with a vaccine-preventable illness caught from another patient, there is both ethical, legal, and moral liability on the doctor. *Especially* if the doctor has not done their best to minimize/avoid this potential transmission. I don't know. About 32 years ago, I got the flu. Don't know how, just got it. It was rough, lasted about a week or two. I think week of fever, then week of recovery. During that time, I gave it to my twin brother. Two weeks later he was dead from Reyes Syndrome. Is it my fault? I gave him the flu. Even the aspirin company's fault? I don't think so. I cannot live in guilt about giving him the flu, or being angry when he first went to the hospital. [it was his week to do the dishes.] It just happened. I hate the litigiousness [is that a word] of society that says it is always someone's fault and I really hate medical care, or education or anything that is dictated b/c of potential liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) Who told you this? My ped has non-vaxing parents sign a piece of paper that says he recommended that they vaccinate and they understood there there is a risk of injury of death if a child contracts a vaccine preventable disease. It's very similarly phrased the way the waiver for vaccines state that the child can be injured or die from the vaccine. Our lawyer told us this, as has our malpractice carrier. ETA: Yes, they have you sign. However, that paper is nearly worthless in a court of law or a license hearing. The legal argument is that you aren't capable of waiving the decisions b/c you are not legally competent to make them (because you are not a doctor). Edited July 5, 2011 by StephanieZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I hate the litigiousness [is that a word] of society that says it is always someone's fault and I really hate medical care, or education or anything that is dictated b/c of potential liability. Oh, I am so sorry for your loss. So sorry. Such a tragic thing. I, too, hate the fact that lawsuits drive many decisions, but, that is the inescapable reality. Anyone who is in a medical/legal related field knows it all too well. You either cover your butt, or you are out of practice in short order, and permanently bankrupted due to loss of license. It is what it is. Tort reform might help someday. Or, better yet, maybe a return of civility and personal responsibility will end the sue-at-the-drop-of-a-dime mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I would write the Dr and let her know you are sad about the decision and will miss her. Would be curious if she even knows..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Who told you this? My ped has non-vaxing parents sign a piece of paper that says he recommended that they vaccinate and they understood there there is a risk of injury of death if a child contracts a vaccine preventable disease. It's very similarly phrased the way the waiver for vaccines state that the child can be injured or die from the vaccine. Signed waivers of all types, whether they be for the refusal of medical treatment, ski rental at a resort or to bungee jump off a bridge are rarely worth the paper they're written on. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 They know that many clients will just not listen (in one ear and out the other) to their medical judgment, and it is frightening, frustrating, and often malpractice to allow them on their merry way while medically neglecting their patients. So, the individual doctors or their corporate structures/boards/etc have decided that the only way to ensure a clear message is to make it a non-negotiable rule. Doctors are softies; sometimes they need management to help them enforce rules (even if they themselves have chosen/hire/fire this management). Doctors are seeing patients die due to illnessed they likely would not have gotten if there were adequate 'herd immunity'. I.e., babies too young for vaccination dying b/c of higher rates of vaccine-preventable illnesses in the community. When a doctor treats such a patient, and witnesses their death, their patience (for clients who make decisions which are unsound in their medical judgment) evaporates. When non-vaccinating families were a rarity, and vaccine-preventable deaths in the US were rare, doctors (like parents) had the luxury of nodding and smiling while the rare non-vaccinating family was in the office. This is changing. . Could you please cite a source that compares the rate at which Dr.s tested to confirm suspected vaccine preventable diseases over time and the death rates of confirmed cases of vaccine preventable diseases over time? My ped, having actual experience over the decades with this issue, would tell you differently. Peds with no actual experience with this issue can only speak theoretically about it. He will tell you that it is standard practice for a non-vaxed child with a cough to be diagnosed (without testing to confirm it) with Whooping Cough. Since he has patients who don't vaccinate and have to deal with this, he goes to the trouble to test and guess what? It's fairly rare that it really is Whooping Cough. He also point out that the vast majority of the time Whooping Cough is caught by a child, it's from an adult that had previously been vaccinated, but has not had updated boosters. Usually it's a grandparent whose immunity wore off a long time ago. The risk from people choosing not to vaccinate is not always the case. When I was in high school in 1991 and several years go there were measles outbreaks at a local HS. Both times it was caught by teens who had been vaccinated but their boosters had worn off. No unvaccinated kids were involved-I have no idea if there were any unvaccinated kids around. When my youngest was adopted, there was medical evidence she might have been older than the paperwork indicated. I asked her Developmental Ped about vaccinations-she had to be on a schedule per our contract, and the ped said, "Vaccinations only matter for kids is daycares and schools. That's where these things breed-she's home and your other kids are hsed, so unless you're traveling to the Third World, don't worry about it. It's no big deal" A former neighbor of mine had a fully vaccinated on schedule child who came down with Rubella-she couldn't walk for a week. Her ped told her, "It's no big deal-it's just Ruebella. Kids used to get it all the time." She was surprised he was so casual about it being a staunch supporter of vaccination. I know someone whose child's death was labelled "complications due to chicken pox." When she described what happened, it's clearly nonsense. The child (just under 2) had the chicken pox and got over them. A month after the child was back to normal after having had them the child turned blue from the waist down and was rushed to the hospital. The child died two days later. No doctor could provide an explanation for what happened for three weeks. The parents wanted to get the death certificate, so the doctor wrote under cause of death, "complications due to chicken pox." When my older kids were little (they're 15 and 13) he told me not to allow diaper changing with a caregiver that changes vaccinated children (like a church nursery) because back then one of the hep shots had the virus in a child's stool and without meticulous handwashing, it can be passed to a non-vaxed child. My SIL's school would not allow donations of toiletpaper rolls for crafts for this very reason. If a girl has measles in childhood, when she is pregnant as an adult, she will pass immunity to her baby in the womb. The child will be naturally protected from measles until age 1. If a girl is vaccinated for measles, her future children will not get a natural immunity and will be vulnerable to measles from birth to age 1 before she can be vaccinated. Vaccination in children is causing the rise measles deaths from in infants newborn -1 year old. There may be an increase in deaths, but it's important to look a the whole picture before making general statements about why. Some seriously careful and thorough documentation would be required to make a solid case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I think it's strange that you have to file medical forms when you homeschool. We've homeschooled in Maryland and New York and have only had to give them academic information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmyboys Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I don't think it is just lawsuits. Some drs actually don't want little babies exposed to vaccine preventable diseases in their offices because they don't want them getting sick just because they care. We thought my son had whooping cough at just a few weeks old. His pediatrician put into place an "everyone must vaccinate on schedule (unless there is a contraindication)" policy the day he saw my son and it is still in effect. He said he had been in practice for 30 years and had already seen his share of kids dying from pertussis and hib and he wasn't going to see anymore. He gave people plenty of time to catch up on vaccines, but if they didn't want to he kicked them out. I have another pediatrician friend and she said she used to think it was just a few families-no big deal. Then she thought she could educate parents. Now she realizes that most people have already made up their mind and aren't going to listen to her. She said she is strongly contemplating only seeing vaxed children. We do have a peds office here that openly advertises that you don't have to vax to see them. OP, sorry you lost your ped. hope you find a new one you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) I believe it is also an insurance thing. I've been seeing a doctor who had her own practice. (She has since closed to have a baby.) She explained to us that insurance companies determine what percentage of patients must be immunized. If a practice drops below that number, then the entire practice is penalized. The insurance will simply drop them as a provider and refuse to pay. I hope you can find a new doctor. I know how hard it is to find one. This is what I replied to. It's about the insurance companies. Edited July 6, 2011 by Teachin'Mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I have BT twice.:grouphug::grouphug:We no longer see Peds, we usually go to our Chiro 1st, and an older family dr 2nd. That policy would fall into discriminating for religious reasons, imho. I wouldn't even bother to try to talk to her, I would just move on and find yourself an older family doc, and even offer to sign a release form. There is no right to make others suffer deleterious consequences for your parenting choices. Release forms mean nothing. WE have sued on behalf of three dead patients who signed waivers about the risks of the surgery in question. Malpractice when measured against community standards is still malpractice. Non medical persons are not held to have even understood the **** waivers they sign nor the risks as they are generally non medical personnel so I do not know why MDs and hospitals even bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 This is what I think is driving the decisions. And I don't think it's because they're concerned that these kids will be a higher risk' date=' I think it's because immunizations are very profitable - not just from the cost for them, but it means several doctor visits and copays, etc.. I think it also gets families in the habit of going to the doctor often (again bringing in more money) which is something I don't think many would do otherwise. JMO. :)[/quote'] Maybe the pediatricians ,who make nothing compared to other MD's, actually care about their patients. Crazy concept but I thought I would toss it out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I don't think it is just lawsuits. Some drs actually don't want little babies exposed to vaccine preventable diseases in their offices because they don't want them getting sick just because they care. We thought my son had whooping cough at just a few weeks old. His pediatrician put into place an "everyone must vaccinate on schedule (unless there is a contraindication)" policy the day he saw my son and it is still in effect. He said he had been in practice for 30 years and had already seen his share of kids dying from pertussis and hib and he wasn't going to see anymore. He gave people plenty of time to catch up on vaccines, but if they didn't want to he kicked them out. I have another pediatrician friend and she said she used to think it was just a few families-no big deal. Then she thought she could educate parents. Now she realizes that most people have already made up their mind and aren't going to listen to her. She said she is strongly contemplating only seeing vaxed children. We do have a peds office here that openly advertises that you don't have to vax to see them. OP, sorry you lost your ped. hope you find a new one you like. :iagree::iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 A former neighbor of mine had a fully vaccinated on schedule child who came down with Rubella-she couldn't walk for a week. Her ped told her, "It's no big deal-it's just Ruebella. Kids used to get it all the time." She was surprised he was so casual about it being a staunch supporter of vaccination. Rubella isn't usually a big deal in kids, but can cause congenital rubella syndrome if a pregnant woman is infected. The purpose of the vaccine is to decrease congenital rubella syndrome. If a girl has measles in childhood, when she is pregnant as an adult, she will pass immunity to her baby in the womb. The child will be naturally protected from measles until age 1. If a girl is vaccinated for measles, her future children will not get a natural immunity and will be vulnerable to measles from birth to age 1 before she can be vaccinated. Vaccination in children is causing the rise measles deaths from in infants newborn -1 year old. Immunized mothers pass their antibodies on to the baby as well, although they drop off more quickly between 4 and 8 months. Passive immunity against measles during the first 8 months of life of infants born to vaccinated mothers or to mothers who sustained measles. De Serres G, Joly JR, Fauvel M, Meyer F, Mâsse B, Boulianne N. Source Centre de Santé Publique de Québec, Beauport, Canada. Abstract Neutralizing antibody titers of 47 infants whose mothers sustained measles (measles group) and 70 whose mothers were vaccinated (vaccine group) were compared at birth, 4 and 8 months of age. All children had antibodies at birth and 88% at 4 months. At 8 months, 49% had antibodies in the measles group and 15% in the vaccine group (P < 0.001). The geometric mean titers were significantly lower in the vaccine group than in the measles group and the difference corresponded to the antibody loss occurring in only 1.5 months of life. This small difference may reflect past exposure to wild virus of many vaccinated mothers. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 This is what I think is driving the decisions. And I don't think it's because they're concerned that these kids will be a higher risk' date=' I think it's because immunizations are very profitable - not just from the cost for them, but it means several doctor visits and copays, etc.. I think it also gets families in the habit of going to the doctor often (again bringing in more money) which is something I don't think many would do otherwise. JMO. :)[/quote'] Um, if the doctor in question was hurting for patients and trying to drum up business despite their medical judgment, they wouldn't be dismissing them. Rather, they are dismissing paying long-term patients (sacrificing good will as well as potential income) in order to be true to their medical/ethical judgment. To me, this reflects well on the ethics of the doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessicaLady Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm sure I'll be disliked for saying so, but I don't think the 'wrong' person found out. It seems like the employee (whomever it was) was doing their job and thoroughly. I would think immunization records would be standard info to give to a school (whether you're homeschooled or not) as they are considered 'required' for children. Whether you require them or not. That being said, I think it was very unfortunate to have discharged in such a way. That is something that should be handled by the Dr. personally. Although pts where I worked weren't dc'd regularly (or for this reason), it was done by the physician. In addition, the problem w/ an administrator dc'ing you and possibly w/o Peds. knowledge is only the Pedi. would be away if your child/children had chronic medical problems. Discharging a pt w/ any chronic illness could lead to a lapse in proper care. I'm assuming your children are healthy, but an admin. would not/should not assess that for himself. I definitely think this should be reflected in your letter. If not to help you, but potentially someone else. If you are involved in any local mom's groups, church, etc, I'd put the word out that you need a new Ped. and what treatment style you're seeking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 You said you delay vaccines. Does that mean you do or don't vaccinate? I assume it means you vaccinate, but don't vaccinated under a certain age and don't do 3 or 4 vaccines at once as the schedule most doctors follow says. Can you clarify, because if you do actually vaccinate but extend to time period between vaccines, your discussion when you try to get in a new practice is totally different than just "I don't vaccinate". Oh, I wouldn't overestimate the obnoxiousness of some pediatric practices. My son was fully vaccinated with the exception of the 2nd MMR vaccine and my daughter was only missing a handful of vaccinations that I planned to do slowly over time. The rudeness and outright nastiness of the practice we were going to because my children weren't fully vaccinated was unbelievable. I had one of the doctors in that practice refuse to remove my daughter's stitches and tell me she had to go to the emergency room to have that done. I was treated like trash every time I went into the office. I was told my 2yo MUST have the chicken pox vaccination because it is the #1 point of entry for flesh eating bacteria. Nothing but scare tactics. And then I saw the ad for this practice in the local telephone book -- It read, "Your Child Is Our Child" and I just laughed out loud because that was the whole problem. My children are NOT their children. Those idiot doctors just thought they were. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Maybe the pediatricians ,who make nothing compared to other MD's, actually care about their patients. Crazy concept but I thought I would toss it out there. Not from my experience! If they make little, I suspect it's because they have very little to offer -- except vaccinations, fearmongering and referrals. I have a cousin who is a pediatrician. Want to know why? Because the hours are so good. Lisa ETA: And now I'm stepping away from this discussion. My feelings about this are too strong. Edited July 6, 2011 by LisaTheresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Really? I have two cousins (brother/sister) who are both MD's in the same major city. Both are extremely well-respected in their profession and community. Both are in a practice with three other docs-- 4 docs total in the practice. One is a cardiologist her brother is a pediatrician. No comparison--- the ped makes FAR less than his sister. FAR, FAR less. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Really? One is a cardiologist her brother is a pediatrician. No comparison--- the ped makes FAR less than his sister. FAR, FAR less. astrid Yes. Traditionally, pediatrics has been the lowest paid of all medical specialties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nature Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I would ask to see the written policy and would be curious about the date that it was created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacie Leigh Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Not from my experience! If they make little, I suspect it's because they have very little to offer -- except vaccinations, fearmongering and referrals. I have a cousin who is a pediatrician. Want to know why? Because the hours are so good. Lisa ETA: And now I'm stepping away from this discussion. My feelings about this are too strong. My now ex-ped told me that she doesn't make deals with drug reps but that many, many of her colleagues did and were very much into "pushing" formula of certain brands as well as specific drugs. I don't think my ped is a wealthy woman. And if she is, she certainly doesn't flaunt it. I would guess she makes LESS than her drug pushin' counterparts. That said, I detest the side of pediatrics that is so obsessed with brand name promotion, practice liability and insurance policies. It has little to with the health and well being of their patients. One local ped suggested to my friend that if her baby wasn't getting enough from her breastmilk and that my friend would never know. He claimed the baby would never cry or protest from hunger (ridiculous!) but that she would just become brain damaged from starvation. (WHILE the mother was breastfeeding every 1.5 hours during the day and every 2-3 overnight.) When my ped was away the fill in suggested to my DH that my son (24 hours old) would "never" recover from his jaundice if we didn't give him formula despite the fact that he was already gaining weight and going through diapers at the speed of light. That is fear mongering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Our lawyer told us this, as has our malpractice carrier. ETA: Yes, they have you sign. However, that paper is nearly worthless in a court of law or a license hearing. The legal argument is that you aren't capable of waiving the decisions b/c you are not legally competent to make them (because you are not a doctor). Wow, that is pretty amazing, that I am not legally competent to make decisions about medical care for my own kids and presumably for myself because I am not a doctor! Why do they even bother with having us sign consent forms? Big Brother is getting carried away yet again and 1984 is closer than ever. Scary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwilliams1922 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 we were released from several practices. I do have one now for 'just in case' but my 4 & 6 year olds have never been sick enough to need a dr. My homebirthing,breast feeding, home schooling, unprocessed food,WAPF family are just not big money makers for any practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 It sounds like the request for paperwork brought to the attention of the admin that your family isn't in compliance with that group's policy. I'd write a personal thank you note to your pediatrician, and express your sorrow over being discharged. I'd also ask her to keep you in mind if she's ever at a new, more flexible place. You never know... :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 :grouphug: Haven't read the other posts, and sorry about your situation. What a bummer. I just had to say that we love your sig line. It's hilarious. Hope it all works out for you with finding a new ped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 To the OP, that really stinks! Who told you this? My ped has non-vaxing parents sign a piece of paper that says he recommended that they vaccinate and they understood there there is a risk of injury of death if a child contracts a vaccine preventable disease. It's very similarly phrased the way the waiver for vaccines state that the child can be injured or die from the vaccine. We have a law that is kind of like this in Washington state. It just passed. All exemptions must now be signed by the doctor stating that he/she informed you of the risks of not vaccinating. I hate the litigiousness [is that a word] of society that says it is always someone's fault and I really hate medical care, or education or anything that is dictated b/c of potential liability. :iagree: I'm sorry about your brother. The whole time Madelynn was sick with rotavirus last month, we didn't regret not vaccinating her. It is our decision to deal with the diseases rather than the vaccines. We wouldn't sue our doctor for not forcing us to vaccinate. However, we would sue the doctor if our child were injured or killed by a vaccine that was forced upon us...oh wait, they are protected from being sued for vaccine-caused damages. Every time I was in the hospital with Madelynn when she was sick with rotavirus, I was expecting to be hammered for not vaccinating. After all they suspected she had a vaccine-preventable illness. I was prepared to ask any doctor who laid in on me, "Will you take personal responsibility for any injury or death that may result from the vaccine you are demanding my child have?" I couldn't imagine any doctor willing to take that responsibility no matter how much they believed in vaccines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Maybe the pediatricians ,who make nothing compared to other MD's, actually care about their patients. Crazy concept but I thought I would toss it out there. My comment was entirely about the insurance companies. I have no doubt that most pediatricians care about their patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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