Gender-free...and homeschooling

[cdrumm4448]

Suppressing the knowledge of a child's gender doesn't make it a non issue. It draws attention to it and makes it a larger issue than it should be.

 

There are two sets of parts. We all get one or another (with the exception of hermaphrodites, which is not the point of this article). It doesn't have to be limiting to know and to have others know which set you got.

 

It is the epitome of egocentricity to use your child to further your own agenda. If your agenda is causing your five year old mental distress, then a responsible parent makes adjustments.

 

Studies have shown that people do treat even infants differently depending on what gender they believe the child to be. That is the world we live in. However, it is not 1850. Your parts don't necessarily define your role in life or in larger society. Your parents being weirdos shouldn't define it, either. Poor kids.

 

:iagree: The whole thing is just weird.

[MelanieM]

For the chance to discover and define oneself without any gender-biased ideas. Clothing, hobbies, interests, abilities, friendships, studies, careers... Whether or not we care (or even realize it) gender roles do influence us, even if by making us consciously turn away from expectations.

 

 

I read it, and I think I understand what they're trying to avoid. All the "Oh, what a pretty little girl you are!" or "You're such a strong little boy!" as the baby lays on someone's lap. I swear that I've read studies that people treat even infants differently depending on gender. Since they seem so set on having everything be the kids' decisions, I believe that once the child can talk, s/he will let others know whether s/he is a boy or a girl if s/he decides so. Whether that will backfire, I don't know.

 

 

I think the above two quotes hit on the value in this approach. Kids do start getting gender stereotypes pushed on them from a very young age. Even things like baby gifts... you can tell a person you want gender neutral, then when you say you have a girl they bring you some pink, frilly concoction! So I think it's actually interesting to not announce the gender *of an infant* to anyone outside the home. I really don't think that means the child won't know if s/he is a girl or boy... just that they won't be advertising it off the hop so that it's a non issue for as long as it really is a non-issue.

 

Still not something I'd do, if for no other reason than the pronoun issue... but I sort of get the point at this level, even if it is to the extreme.

 

I do think this is an entirely different thing than what's happening with the older boys. They know they're boys, and I get the impression they're able to dress and act however they'd like. The fact that the oldest is bumping into issues from the outside is, unfortunately, what happens when a child looks different than the accepted social norm. But I don't think that means parents should force their children to dress/act a certain way just to avoid that... unless the kids want to avoid it. It doesn't make you a bad parent to let your son wear dresses until he no longer wants to wear dresses.

And the poor 5 yr old. He doesn't even have the guts to tell his own teacher he's a boy. A pp mentioned what do you do when they ask? Can the 5 yr old not correct people and say 'No, I'm a boy. I just like to wear pink.' If the child is so afraid of either society or his parents that he can't speak up and define who he is, then what the parents want to do is backfiring.

 

I think this is more about personality and being five years old than about the gender issue. There are *lots* of five year olds that wouldn't want to confront an adult about things and would look to their parents to step in for them. I think it says a lot about the kid, and his parents, that he is able to articulate the issue to them and ask for their support.

 

Disclaimer: the hidden gender thing is not something I would do in my own family, and I do feel it's all a bit extreme. I just think it's important not to jump to too many conclusions about this family based on this short piece. Everything is always so much more sensational when we look through the eyes of the media.

[cdrumm4448]

Wow. I don't really know what to say to this. Let's hope, for your sake, your son doesn't turn out to be gay. What would you do then? And really? "extremely harmful" for a boy to wear a dress? Sigh.

 

Telling a boy (or girl) to buck up has nothing to do with sexual orientation. You are actually promoting a stereotype by asserting that gay men are overly feminine. Not so in every case.

 

AND, I agree with pqr. This gender-neutral movement must be the latest thing. I am slightly conservative :D and have a friend who unschools, allows her boys to have long hair, wear barrettes and nail polish, and I don't know what else. People constantly think they're girls. You (general you) can raise your kids any way you want to, but you (general you) can't get mad when everyone thinks your boys are girls. You (general you) also cannot expect everyone else to go along with it.

[KarenNC]

I mean, you ARE born a certain gender, whether you like it or not. Only one gender can carry and deliver a child. What are they going to tell their boys when they say they want to have a baby in their belly one day? Are they going to tell them that only girls can do that?

 

 

Anyone else flash on "Life of Brian" with this?:)

[fairfarmhand]

I think this is about the fact that the couple already had 2 kids of the same gender.

 

Went through that myself having 3 girls in a row.

 

Then we get pregnant with #4.

 

"Are you hoping for a boy?" as if my girls were "less than" and we would be desperately hoping, praying for that boy. ( I didn't feel that way, but I could really see it happening to more sensitive people. I have known some people who were horridly offended when folks would ask if they were hoping for one gender or the other, especially if they already had several of the same gender)

 

Then if you do end up with a child of the same gender as the older siblings..."Awww.....I bet you're a little disappointed. Do you think you will keep trying for that little boy/girl?"

 

I think this is all about them not wanting to hear all that crap. Their baby is beautiful, and loved boy or girl.

 

They should lay off the weirdness though for the child's sake.

[Cassy]

My father was brought up in Liverpool, England in the 1920s, the youngest son in a family of 7 boys and girls, he was taught how to sew, cook, helped his mother with the cleaning, but also how to fix engines and won awards for bravery fighting in Egypt in WWII. When I was born he was in his late forties and was the tendrest, most loving, most involved father imaginable, even my own mother said he 'mothered' me better than she did. Her own father was in his forties when she was born in 1930 and was unemployed during much of her childhood (until the start of WWII), it was he who 'kept house' and looked after my mother and her siblings while my grandmother went out to work as a cleaner for wealthy families. I'm sure my family is not the only one with such exceptions to 'gender stereotyping' during a time long before the concept was identified.

 

Real people are far more intelligent, flexible and adaptable than the lobby for 'political correctness' would have us believe.

[6packofun]

I agree. You take away all boundaries and definitions, *something* and *someone* is going to FILL that void and provide answers that the parents are trying so hard NOT to give.

[Impish]

I flashed on Meaning Of Life..."Is it a boy or girl?" "A bit early to be imposing such roles on it, don't you?"

[Night Elf]

Personally, I abhor it when I hear people chastize young men to "act like a man" or "be a man". It seems to be a thinly veiled swipe at behavior that seems "weak" or "feminine".

 

My cousins are a good example of this. My male cousin is 4 years older than my female cousin. They were not only raised differently, they were told why they were raised differently. I remember my male cousin being taunted and punished for crying by my uncle, because men don't cry. My cousins never played with each other's toys for gender reasons. His trucks, spaceships, and action figures were for boys. She played with dolls, kitchen equipment, and stuffed animals. All of us children had to clear the table after dinner each night, but dishes were washed by the girls (aunt, me, and female cousin) and the guys (my uncle and male cousin) would take out the trash. When my male cousin was 12, it was okay for him to have a 15 year old girlfriend, but my female cousin wasn't allowed to have a boyfriend until she was 16.

 

I'm happy to say they do not seem negatively influenced by the way they were raised.

[lailasmum]

I think they what they are trying to do is interesting but they are just going about it totally the wrong way. Their children are what they are and the attributes their gender naturally gives is part of that. I get the feeling that if their little boys naturally showed a leaning towards masculine things it might be frowned upon. I am certain you can celebrate a child's gender and also give them an idea that it doesn't limit them to specific careers or paths or clothing or whatever without making it a huge issue.

 

I think they might have to re evaluate this life style they have set up in a couple of years.

 

My experience of this is that my mum is a total tom boy, she grew up without many female influences as her mum died when she was 4. I think she was accidentally treated as one of the boys and brought up doing the same things and being treated the same way as her male cousins and it shaped her way of thinking a lot. I feel like I have been brought up by her to think negatively of female roles and that its a bad thing to be feminine, or embrace female roles. Its taken me a while to come to grips with the positives of being a woman. A lot of re thinking of assumptions.

Edited May 25, 2011 by lailasmum

[6packofun]

The other thing that bugs me about this story is the secrecy that they are imposing on the 2 older brothers. (Yes, they are *brothers*, as in boys. lol) They must also impose their "non-gender" rules for living on the other children in order to make things work the way they want--what if the KIDS want something different? It's all so contrived and sad to me. Their "freedom" sounds like a different set of rules to me, just for the sake of going against the grain.

[cdrumm4448]

My cousins are a good example of this. My male cousin is 4 years older than my female cousin. They were not only raised differently, they were told why they were raised differently. I remember my male cousin being taunted and punished for crying by my uncle, because men don't cry. My cousins never played with each other's toys for gender reasons. His trucks, spaceships, and action figures were for boys. She played with dolls, kitchen equipment, and stuffed animals. All of us children had to clear the table after dinner each night, but dishes were washed by the girls (aunt, me, and female cousin) and the guys (my uncle and male cousin) would take out the trash. When my male cousin was 12, it was okay for him to have a 15 year old girlfriend, but my female cousin wasn't allowed to have a boyfriend until she was 16.

 

I'm happy to say they do not seem negatively influenced by the way they were raised.

 

I tell both my kids, after ascertaining they are not seriously hurt, to brush off stuff they're crying about. That's a far cry from what you described.

 

Actually, I make both my kids work pretty hard. DS cuts the grass, DD trims around the swingset. Both clear the table. DS cleans the bathrooms, DD dusts. I only differentiate duties due to their age.

 

So, it's hard work and stop the crying for everyone.

[texasmama]

Just to clarify, my comments have nothing to do with the original article. I don't find the parents' reasoning to be rational or in their children's best interest.

 

But sex and gender identity are not the same thing. For most people they line up, yes, but a child can feel considerable anxiety if the "parts" (even in prepubescence) don't match up with the gender they know they are.

 

Yes, this is true, but for the vast majority of the case gender identity lines up with the "parts". If it doesn't, it exhibits a bit later, certainly not in infancy. Gender identity disorders are relatively rare in the scheme of childhood/adolescent disorders so that could not be reasonably used as a reason to conduct this sort of experiment on one's child. In fact, it is likely to cause more gender confusion and internal conflict, as exhibited by this couple's 5 year old.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

I think this article is interesting.

 

I took a Queer Lit class a few semesters ago, and we talked a LOT about how gender is constructed by society. There is evidence of a number of societies that acknowledged a third gender. The male/female binary DOES leave many people pushed out in our society.

 

I don't know how I feel about what these parents are doing though. My own daughter tends toward "boy"ness. She likes shopping in the boy section, her favorite toys are cars, blocks, Power Rangers, Spiderman.... but at the same time she loves dance class, and loves to wear dresses. (Interestingly enough, a friend recently commented on how DD is both extremely girly and extremely... tomboyish.) I haven't gone as far as to purposely obscure her gender, but I also don't prescribe certain roles for her based on her gender. And I struggle against others (in particular her grandmother, who likes to tell her "Girls don't do that" or convince her to have a Tinkerbell birthday cake instead of a Spiderman one, or refuse to buy her a toy unless she picks out a girl toy... :glare:) Even within my protection, DD has started to make comments like "But people will make fun of me" regarding the Spiderman bookbag that she picked out and loved. Or if she wants to buy a shirt from the boys section. It makes me sad to watch my 5 year old really, really want a shirt, but be afraid to buy it because of what other people think.

 

I think children are better served by parents who support their choices, encourage them to be themselves, and raise their children to not worry about what people may think of their (appearances, clothes, etc.).

[texasmama]

FWIW, many kids go through phases in which they insist they are actually the opposite sex, or a cat or a dog, typical kid stuff. The phase passes, though they occasionally last weeks or months. Transgender is something else: it's a profound disconnect between sex and gender identity. Gender identity may be male, female, none, or both (sometimes called fluid)... not necessarily just the "opposite". Researchers don't know what causes it, though there's ever increasing evidence that it's a biological phenomenon, possibly with developmental roots. Until relatively recently it was still treated primarily as a mental disorder (lately dubbed Gender Identity Disorder).

 

 

I would agree with all of this. The "labeling" of mental health issues is fluid, as well. It is possible that "Gender Identity Disorder" will be renamed in a future DSM, though I am not aware of this in the upcoming new edition, which is scheduled to be released in 2012.

[nmoira]

I would agree with all of this. The "labeling" of mental health issues is fluid, as well. It is possible that "Gender Identity Disorder" will be renamed in a future DSM, though I am not aware of this in the upcoming new edition, which is scheduled to be released in 2012.

There is heavy lobbying going on, that's as much as I know. Edited May 25, 2011 by nmoira
darned phone - want Tapatalk :)

[cathmom]

It seems that this approach would be more likely to CAUSE gender identity disorder than avoid it!

[texasmama]

There is heavy lobbying going on, that's as much as know.

 

I will follow this with interest. It is a sociological (more than a psychological) barometer to watch the progression of the DSM labeling over time. People really don't change that much in terms of psychological issues, but the labeling and characterization of the disorders changes a great deal.

 

(As an aside, I have very mixed feelings about the DSM demise of Aspgergers Syndrome as it falls under the umbrella of ASD, though I do like the proposed criteria. Carry on with your regular programming, folks. Nothing to see here.:tongue_smilie:)

[Murphy101]

I don't think this story has anything to do with their kids having long hair. These parents have much larger issues than that. Seriously the only one making a big deal out of gender in their kids life is them. I highly doubt a 5, 2, and 4 month old would care at all about the topic if their parents were not making such a huge deal over it. I see some serious therapy in these boys future.:confused:

 

:iagree:

 

We are not androgenous.

We have genders.

Denying that is denying a basic part of who our children are.

 

It's a prime example of physiologists being idiots and foolish people ignoring common sense by listening to them.

 

And, for the record, I am not in the least a believer in some of the more strict concepts of gender roles. Men have had long hair for centuries and not been considered girly. Women can work, men can care for babies. None of that means they are have to deny their gender.

[MelanieM]

It makes me sad to watch my 5 year old really, really want a shirt, but be afraid to buy it because of what other people think.

 

I think children are better served by parents who support their choices, encourage them to be themselves, and raise their children to not worry about what people may think of their (appearances, clothes, etc.).

 

Yes and yes! My son used to say his favourite colour was purple, and was always asking me to paint his toenails. Then he somehow got the idea that purple and toenail painting was 'girly', and that was the end of that. It made me sad to see him give up things he enjoyed due to silly social labels.

[Tree House Academy]

Did you say "have their boys wear dresses??" Hmm...being the mom of boys, I can't even imagine my husband coming home to my sons in dresses. Oh my.

 

You know, society doesn't assign gender...GOD does! There is nothing at all wrong with being the person God made you to be - be that boy or girl. I think this story just goes above any kind of understanding I could muster.

 

I won't even begin to touch the "trans-sexual" conversation because I know that I can't add anything intelligent to it. I have never had those feelings nor begin to pretend that I know anything about it at all. While I believe God decides whether you are a boy or a girl at birth and there is nothing WRONG with being what you are...I can't speak at all to feeling like you are the opposite sex or should have been. Just want to make sure my post is clear there.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Tree House Academy

[cat]

Wishing the media wouldn't have put this one out there..... and just let them all live gender-free without being in the spotlight.

[kamom]

The other thing that bugs me about this story is the secrecy that they are imposing on the 2 older brothers. (Yes, they are *brothers*, as in boys. lol) They must also impose their "non-gender" rules for living on the other children in order to make things work the way they want--what if the KIDS want something different? It's all so contrived and sad to me. Their "freedom" sounds like a different set of rules to me, just for the sake of going against the grain.

 

:iagree:I think it's very sad. Girls and boys are not the same and this doesn't sound like any form of freedom to me. My heart goes out the child.

 

Confusion!

[texasmama]

Wishing the media wouldn't have put this one out there..... and just let them all live gender-free without being in the spotlight.

 

They obviously agreed to an interview. If they had declined, there would be no real story.

[Mimm]

Did you say "have their boys wear dresses??" Hmm...being the mom of boys, I can't even imagine my husband coming home to my sons in dresses. Oh my.

 

You know, society doesn't assign gender...GOD does! There is nothing at all wrong with being the person God made you to be - be that boy or girl. I think this story just goes above any kind of understanding I could muster.

 

God may assign gender but society decides what that means in terms of norms, expectations and opportunities.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

You know, society doesn't assign gender...GOD does! There is nothing at all wrong with being the person God made you to be - be that boy or girl. I think this story just goes above any kind of understanding I could muster.

 

Yes, God does assign biological gender. But.... over the thousands of years that we have written records, the idea of what those biological genders are has changed. What is "male" and "female" today is not what was "male" and "female" just 100 short years ago.

 

Even something silly as hair. "Men" used to have long hair. That was the way it was. Today, little boys with long hair are mistaken for girls. This is what most people mean by gender being a societal construction. Biology is designed by God, but what society thinks goes with each of those genders is not static, and is not assigned by God.

 

And what about those people who DON'T have clear biological genders?

 

I don't think this is as simple as saying God made you a boy (or girl), so act like it.

[HS Mom in NC]

How would these parents react if their oldest son truly wanted to be gun toting, ball throwing, power tool wielding, animal hunting, toy truck crashing, knife throwing, tree climbing, motorcycle racing, 'gator wrestling, stereotypical boy? If Storm is a girl and chooses to be an uber girly princess type girl by her own free will would we still hear them saying, "Let them be who they are. Let them choose."? If they would, then they get credit for consistency, but why do I have my doubts?

 

In general, I have to say the very concept of intentionally experimenting on people without the legal or cognitive ability to consent has serious ethical problems. This is not just a parental rights issue that we all have the right to raise our children as we see fit within the bounds of the law because these are people who seem to understand that what they are doing is an experiment.

 

It's interesting that the psychology community is so accepting of the idea of choosing gender (which is usually physically and genetically identifiable-the exceptions being hermaphrodites and chimeras) but they are very alarmed about the psychological impact of children of one race adopted by families of another race identifying themselves with the adoptive family's race. Seems to me those would be in roughly the same category.

[kitten18]

They obviously agreed to an interview. If they had declined, there would be no real story.

:iagree:

[KristinaBreece]

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards (or the like). My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

 

My DS4 has an AG doll. It is one of a set of Bitty Twins, and it is a boy. He begged for it, because he likes to play "Daddy" and he wanted a baby that looks like he does. DD got the girl doll as a byproduct of DS wanting the boy doll. On the same issue, My DD2 plays Super Heroes with her big brother on a daily basis. (Granted, their favorite incarnation of Super Heroes is He-Man, and she chooses to be Teela or the Sorceress more often than not. But she's also Iron Man on occasion.)

 

 

Absolutely.

 

To me, since you would apply that to a child of either gender, it's not raising them to be a man or to be a woman, but to have a sense of propriety in regard to displaying sensitive behavior to the rest of the world.

[kchara]

How would these parents react if their oldest son truly wanted to be gun toting, ball throwing, power tool wielding, animal hunting, toy truck crashing, knife throwing, tree climbing, motorcycle racing, 'gator wrestling, stereotypical boy? If Storm is a girl and chooses to be an uber girly princess type girl by her own free will would we still hear them saying, "Let them be who they are. Let them choose."? If they would, then they get credit for consistency, but why do I have my doubts?

 

In general, I have to say the very concept of intentionally experimenting on people without the legal or cognitive ability to consent has serious ethical problems. This is not just a parental rights issue that we all have the right to raise our children as we see fit within the bounds of the law because these are people who seem to understand that what they are doing is an experiment.

 

It's interesting that the psychology community is so accepting of the idea of choosing gender (which is usually physically and genetically identifiable-the exceptions being hermaphrodites and chimeras) but they are very alarmed about the psychological impact of children of one race adopted by families of another race identifying themselves with the adoptive family's race. Seems to me those would be in roughly the same category.

 

 

I had the same thoughts.

[angela in ohio]

I think the lack of a gender neutral pronoun is ultimately going to bring down this plan. Because, let's face it, you just can't say, "We need to change Storm's diaper! He or she just pooped! Then we need to wipe his or her chin and change his or her shirt because we're late for his or her doctor's appointment!" (And then there's the need to alternate "his or her" with "her or his," to not subconsciously promote male superiority.)

 

I have to say, I have kids who have at various points expressed dissatisfaction with their ethnic background. I have read articles about this happening to other parents (such as one in Brain, Child by an African American mother whose mixed daughter wants to be white). I wonder if it's okay for, say, a smart dark-skinned black boy to decide to be a Chinese boy because he's good at math and tired of the stereotypes? Is this different from smart black kids being told they are "acting white" by being grammarphiles? This is an interesting topic for the homeschooling parent. But I digress.

 

I just sort of laughed when I got to the fact that they're unschooling their kids. "Of course you are," I sighed to myself. "Of course you are." These are the people who get interviewed about homeschooling. Especially, as noted, when one kid WANTS to go to school and the kids are under 6.

 

I agree with all three points! :D

 

How would these parents react if their oldest son truly wanted to be gun toting, ball throwing, power tool wielding, animal hunting, toy truck crashing, knife throwing, tree climbing, motorcycle racing, 'gator wrestling, stereotypical boy? If Storm is a girl and chooses to be an uber girly princess type girl by her own free will would we still hear them saying, "Let them be who they are. Let them choose."? If they would, then they get credit for consistency, but why do I have my doubts?

 

I have known unschoolers who said they left their children's academic plans up to the child, but in reality, if the child showed an inclination for textbooks or anything "school-ish," it was rejected by the parents. It wasn't really about the child's choice. I think it's the same situation.

[Lady Florida.]

Anyone else flash on "Life of Brian" with this?:)

 

 

Thank you. I so love Monty Python references. :D And Princess Bride references, though I can't think of one that fits this thread.

 

FWIW, I kind of get what these parents are trying to do, but I don't think they're going about it the right way. Has anyone seen the article at Jezebel about it? I tend to agree with the author's take.

[Lady Florida.]

The other thing that bugs me about this story is the secrecy that they are imposing on the 2 older brothers.

 

I remember having a baby brother and excitedly telling anyone who would listen (I'm 5 years older, so I even told teachers and classmates). It must be hard for those little guys, especially the 5 year old not to be able to shout "I have a baby brother/sister!"

[texasmama]

But that's a good point. I guess I do promote my own agenda to some extent.

 

Everyone has an agenda. And a gender. I suppose one could say that everyone has an "agender".

 

Oh dear, I have gone silly...

[texasmama]

Thank you. I so love Monty Python references. :D And Princess Bride references, though I can't think of one that fits this thread.

 

"You keep saying that word (gender-free). I do not think it means what you think it means." How about that?;)

[Lady Florida.]

I can't get past this quote from the father: "What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious," adds Stocker, a teacher at an alternative school.

 

 

I confess I didn't follow the link and read the article because I already heard about the situation. Seriously? He said this? :confused: Wow. If I was the interviewer that statement would have rendered me speechless.

[Cassy]

Everyone has an agenda. And a gender. I suppose one could say that everyone has an "agender".

 

Oh dear, I have gone silly...

 

:lol: I like silly.

[Lady Florida.]

"You keep saying that word (gender-free). I do not think it means what you think it means." How about that?;)

 

That could work. :D

[MelanieM]

Everyone has an agenda. And a gender. I suppose one could say that everyone has an "agender".

 

Oh dear, I have gone silly...

 

Ha!

"You keep saying that word (gender-free). I do not think it means what you think it means." How about that?;)

 

:lol: :lol: You're on a roll! (Loooove that movie, and that's one of the best quotes ever!!)

[stripe]

I remember seeing some show about models where a coordinator said something like, half of the girls have an ethinc background.

 

Yeah.

[Virg]

I thought about the race thing too. My twins are mixed (white and black) and they tell everyone they are white and usually not just white but Irish, even more specifically Irish leprechauns. :lol: They have had no contact with their birthdad but their step dad is black so it isn't like they haven't had that influence. Their step-siblings are mixed also but identify themselves as black. Granted, my step-children have curly, black hair and darker skin while my twins have nothing more than slightly olive skin compared to my pastiness (no idea how that happened!). I have always corrected them gently and said you are white AND black. I honestly wanted mixed children but haven't made a big deal of their desire to be white only. I think they just think they look mostly white and Mama is white so hey we are white. I find it interesting that even though they have never gone to school to be told their race (you aren't black, look at you!) and I have always said both that they decided they were quite obviously white (no idea why mama keeps lying about it lol) and stuck with it for a long time, they are almost 11.

 

All that to say I wonder if at some point this child will think hey thanks for trying but I've been looking around and I've noticed I am a boy so that is all there is to it.

[twoforjoy]

This is totally not about long hair on boys. It's about parents who seem to have forgotten that the baby is a child, not a social experiment.

 

This. I could care less if a boy wants to have long hair and wear skirts, and their family lets them. Go right ahead; I think it's probably a lot healthier for a child to be allowed to do those things than to want to but be told "Nope, because boys don't do that." To me, that would lead to all sorts of gender confusion, because they are boys but they also want to do those things. I have no problem with transgressing traditional gender boundaries.

 

This is different. This is just doing something really bizarre, secretive, and isolating.

[mom31257]

Well, someday everyone is going to see which bathroom that child goes into when old enough to go by him/herself. The secret will be out then! I do hope that we don't get to a place in society where gender doesn't matter on public bathrooms. I really don't want to go to the bathroom with men, and please don't try to make me.:001_smile:

 

How can there not be differences in us because of our gender? Gender differences have been shown as early as in the womb. Throughout the animal kingdom, general male or female roles exist without some psychological outside influence.

 

I think it is ridiculous to try and create a gender-free society. How sad that there are people who seem to sit and around and constantly figure out what all the rest of us are doing wrong. Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

 

As to the parents, I feel sorry for the children. Who only knows what psychological trauma this will cause them for the rest of their lives!

[pqr]

Wow. I don't really know what to say to this. ... And really? "extremely harmful" for a boy to wear a dress? Sigh.

 

We obviously will never see eye to eye and your views are just as incomprehensible to me as mine appear to you.

 

I watched a boy at a soccer game the about a month ago scrape his knee, flop around, cry, whine, tears flowing etc. 10 minutes later he was fine. There was no damage, no broken bones nothing sprained. He was simply a wimp and the cooing from his mother did him no good.

 

Of course when the boys on the team told him to stop being such a "girl" he actually quieted down.

 

Other than being absolutely mortified if a boy of mine behaved like this…..you can bet I would tell him to grow up an act like a man.

 

We seem to be creating a generation of …… well I don’t know…… but they certainly are not the type of boy who I grew up with. To answer your question, yes, I will do all in my power to ensure that mine grow up more like the boys I knew when I was young than some of what I see today.

 

Wearing a dress???? I put it to the other posters even if you could deal with this ask your husband I suspect the reaction would be extreme.

Edited May 25, 2011 by pqr

[nmoira]

How can there not be differences in us because of our gender? Gender differences have been shown as early as in the womb. Throughout the animal kingdom, general male or female roles exist without some psychological outside influence.

And there are some general differences between men and women (or more correctly some men and some women, as there's a range). But don't you think there are additional societal constraints placed on people according to their perceived gender (which is assumed to correspond to their sex)? One can be a woman and not wear a corset. I'm reasonably sure corsets weren't a biological imperative. Likewise one can be a woman and show one's ankle in mixed company. Again, not a biological imperative. Likewise there have been contraints placed on women's professions, right to an education, right to have property, etc. because a of perceived weakness on the part of women due to the nature of their sex. I don't think we're free of such contraints today.

 

Look at Dix Poppas' "work" and follow ups at Cornell: Bad Vibrations, done to spare the girl of the horrors of having a large clitoris. Or drugging pregnant women to prevent lesbianism and the "births of girls who display an "abnormal" disinterest in babies, don't want to play with girls' toys or become mothers, and whose "career preferences" are deemed too "masculine."" Sick.

[mom31257]

And there are some general differences between men and women (or more correctly some men and some women, as there's a range). But don't you think there are additional societal constraints placed on people according to their perceived gender (which is assumed to correspond to their sex)? One can be a woman and not wear a corset. I'm reasonably sure corsets weren't a biological imperative. Likewise one can be a woman and show one's ankle in mixed company. Again, not a biological imperative. Likewise there have been contraints placed on women's professions, right to an education, right to have property, etc. because a of perceived weakness on the part of women due to the nature of their sex. I don't think we're free of such contraints today.

 

Look at Dix Poppas' "work" and follow ups at Cornell: Bad Vibrations, done to spare the girl of the horrors of having a large clitoris. Or drugging pregnant women to prevent lesbianism and the "births of girls who display an "abnormal" disinterest in babies, don't want to play with girls' toys or become mothers, and whose "career preferences" are deemed too "masculine."" Sick.

 

I am very saddened by the atrocities that exist in the world, but I don't believe that even those are justification to do away with gender entirely. I am just saying that I don't want to be a part of a society that tries to be gender-free. I'm proud to be a woman and don't want to feel pressured to hide that. I don't want my children to be, either.

 

I know these parents want to give this child a chance to be anything he/she wants, but seriously, how many children know what they want? I thought I knew what I wanted at 18, but in the end, my life is very different than the ideas I had then and technically I was an adult. Children need guidance from parents because they do not have the mental development to choose many things for themselves at a very young age.

[stripe]

But that's different from dressing your kids in comfy, brown clothes until they have a preference and giving them blocks and a shovel to play with. Why do you have to socialize your son to wear dresses and daughter to ... whatever, eviscerate squirrels and wear a sock in her boxer shorts, to cultivate confusion to the point the child is not allowed to attend the scchool he wants to? There is something here that smacks of instilling shame in the children for not being distinctive in the way the parents want. The juxtaposition of seemingly dominating parents with these quotes insisting they are all about freedom.

[Ginevra]

We obviously will never see eye to eye and your views are just as incomprehensible to me as mine appear to you.

 

I watched a boy at a soccer game the about a month ago scrape his knee, flop around, cry, whine, tears flowing etc. 10 minutes later he was fine. There was no damage, no broken bones nothing sprained. He was simply a wimp and the cooing from his mother did him no good.

 

Of course when the boys on the team told him to stop being such a "girl" he actually quieted down.

 

Other than being absolutely mortified if a boy of mine behaved like this…..you can bet I would tell him to grow up an act like a man.

 

We seem to be creating a generation of …… well I don’t know…… but they certainly are not the type of boy who I grew up with. To answer your question, yes, I will do all in my power to ensure that mine grow up more like the boys I knew when I was young than some of what I see today.

 

Wearing a dress???? I put it to the other posters even if you could deal with this ask your husband I suspect the reaction would be extreme.

 

:iagree: I like men who are manly and I am raising my sons to be this. If they decide they want to wear pink, braid their hair in cornrows, paint their fingernails and join the circus, well - at some point, they will go however they're going to go. But it won't be because I gave them the nail polish. :tongue_smilie:

[MelanieM]

How sad that there are people who seem to sit and around and constantly figure out what all the rest of us are doing wrong. Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

 

As to the parents, I feel sorry for the children. Who only knows what psychological trauma this will cause them for the rest of their lives!

 

:lol: Sorry, but this is ripe with irony.

[kokotg]

We obviously will never see eye to eye and your views are just as incomprehensible to me as mine appear to you.

 

I watched a boy at a soccer game the about a month ago scrape his knee, flop around, cry, whine, tears flowing etc. 10 minutes later he was fine. There was no damage, no broken bones nothing sprained. He was simply a wimp and the cooing from his mother did him no good.

 

Of course when the boys on the team told him to stop being such a "girl" he actually quieted down.

 

Other than being absolutely mortified if a boy of mine behaved like this…..you can bet I would tell him to grow up an act like a man.

 

We seem to be creating a generation of …… well I don’t know…… but they certainly are not the type of boy who I grew up with. To answer your question, yes, I will do all in my power to ensure that mine grow up more like the boys I knew when I was young than some of what I see today.

 

Wearing a dress???? I put it to the other posters even if you could deal with this ask your husband I suspect the reaction would be extreme.

 

I guess what I don't get is what overreacting to a scraped knee has to do with gender?