joannqn Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I was being facetious in this post! Trying to be humorous. Please see post 32 for a better description of these experiments. My DD was commenting on how cruel homeschooling can be... Last year... We tortured a ladybug. We held it underwater until it appeared to be dead. Then we covered it in salt to dry it out and watched as it perked back up before returning it to the area we had captured it. We also murdered a butterfly. Granted it was a mercy killing. Poor Bob emerged from his chrysalis with a withered wing and couldn't get it's proboscis to form properly. This year... We will be torturing a gold fish. Poor Goldie will be bought and placed in a glass of water. First, we'll heat up the water with a 100w bulb and observe her behavior. Then we'll cool the water in ice to observe the changes. We will also be torturing tadpoles. We plan on catching two of them. One will be placed in a small aquarium with a lamp shining on it to provide heat. The other will be placed in another small aquarium without a lamp. Both will be observed for growth rates. Oh, the cruelty we call science. In a way, I think it will be a good thing to be done with zoology after this year. Has this ever occurred to you too? Edited March 17, 2011 by joannqn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Has this ever occurred to you too? No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( Me either. That sounds really awful and... sad. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( nope...me either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Honestly, we don't do those type of experiments. My ds and I have a hard time manipulating nature in that manner. He's even more sensitive than me. Where we used to live was nature central. We found several ways to study nature in its own habitat. He wouldn't touch the dead bumblebee or dragonfly we found in the yard. We observed. We also found a snake skin on the front porch :glare:and once even a tiny frog that had frozen overnight. He refused my offer to dissect it. Edited March 17, 2011 by elegantlion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koerarmoca Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 :huh: I wouldn't allow those types of experiments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RecumbentHeart Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I couldn't do it either. :( It would rather contradict what I'm already trying to teach in other subjects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( No, we never do those sorts of experiments. We always stuck to growing beans in different environments, and watching animals in their natural habitats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( Exactly what I was going to say. Is there actually a curriculum that suggests these things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 We tortured a ladybug. We also murdered a butterfly. We will be torturing a gold fish. From all the research I've done, I think that insects and fish do not feel pain. They also do not have emotions. I don't know about tadpoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Has this ever occurred to you too? Kiddo is far too much a softy for this. I think he'd have nightmares. He's more the "if I can put one fainting robin back in its nest/ I shall not have lived in vain" type. Now, to convince him the "fetal pig" was a miscarriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( :iagree: We wouldn't allow experiments that tortured or harmed living creatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't think they are really meant to be cruel. The ladybug experiment was to observe a very real ability that insects have: the ability to close the spiracles when faced with heavy rain. Once they dry off, they can continue on with life. The butterfly wasn't meant to happen. We were raising caterpillars, and one of them was deformed when he emerged. He was obviously struggling so we put him out of his misery faster. We haven't done the goldfish and tadpoles yet. Goldfish are used because they can withstand changes in water temperature naturally. The experiment specifically says not to use tropical fish. The tadpoles have you warming the water slightly by shining a normal 50-60w bulb on the tank for two hours a day. My guess is that they will both grow normally but one will do so faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( :iagree: :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Kiddo is far too much a softy for this. I think he'd have nightmares. He's more the "if I can put one fainting robin back in its nest/ I shall not have lived in vain" type. Now, to convince him the "fetal pig" was a miscarriage. Softy or not, I wonder if people consider what lessons these kinds of "experiments" (which aren't, by the way, because the people who designed them already know how they should turn out) actually teach kids. Does it teach reverence for life to torture living beings? Is this advancing science in any way? Yuck. It makes me want to cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I am not judging any experiments but to say insects and fish don't feel pain?? They are living creatures just because you can't hear their pain or see their tears means nothing and quite frankly this is the attitude that years ago allowed freaks that were so called doctors to work on those mentally disabled and not use pain management. I cannot believe anyone would say this. For your information some insects actually have noises that coincide with their pain central. There has also been tests done to fish to see the parts of their brains light up when injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm no expert on whether fish feel pain but a quick Google search shows more than one article that suggests they DO. I don't know who is right and who is wrong but purposely trying to make living creatures uncomfortable in order to observe effects you already know will happen just to be able to watch it happen seems unnecessary and cruel. I'd rather TELL my kids about it than show them, and/or I'd rather just observe them in their natural environment than do something like this. I guess I just don't really see the purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wilhelm Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Wait until the softy gets to college........ for General and Comparative Physiology we "pithed" frogs and turtles.... for the frogs this involves cutting the top of their heads off.... "oh they don't feel it" and then ram a poker down their spinal column... the frog convulses and then goes limp... his heart is still beating but he "can't feel a thing". Then we cut his leg off and separated the muscle from his body... then we discarded the body in the trash and shocked the muscle to see how long it reacted to electronic stimulation. for the turtles (big gorgeous pond turtles) we pulled their heads out with a string and chopped their heads off....... then we cut them open and removed their heart and stimulated it by squeezing it and slowly dissecting it until we isolated the Vagus Nerve. The turtle "couldn't feel a thing". It was sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Wait until the softy gets to college........ for General and Comparative Physiology we "pithed" frogs and turtles.... for the frogs this involves cutting the top of their heads off.... "oh they don't feel it" and then ram a poker down their spinal column... the frog convulses and then goes limp... his heart is still beating but he "can't feel a thing". Then we cut his leg off and separated the muscle from his body... then we discarded the body in the trash and shocked the muscle to see how long it reacted to electronic stimulation. for the turtles (big gorgeous pond turtles) we pulled their heads out with a string and chopped their heads off....... then we cut them open and removed their heart and stimulated it by squeezing it and slowly dissecting it until we isolated the Vagus Nerve. The turtle "couldn't feel a thing". It was sick. I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wilhelm Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her. It's going to be tough..... I didn't mind so much when the specimens came in already dead and preserved........ but killing these beautiful creatures was really bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her. Does she HAVE to do them? There are plenty of virtual bio labs available. I would never force my child to dissect a animal if they were against it. If you read my previous post, my ds won't touch a dead animal, so we're planning virtual labs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 From all the research I've done, I think that insects and fish do not feel pain. They also do not have emotions. I don't know about tadpoles. They don't feel pain?! Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBasil Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her. When I was in high school in the mid 90's, my teacher offered a non dissection alternative using work sheets and diagrams for anyone who was morally opposed. Maybe your daughter can propose a similar alternative if it's not of already offered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Does she HAVE to do them? There are plenty of virtual bio labs available. I would never force my child to dissect a animal if they were against it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't think the experiments as described are cruel, JoAnn. Then again, my brother and I used to have bug death matches in the garage. Black widows v. cockroaches, etc. I think I feel the flames licking around my heels with that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter's Moon Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Wait until the softy gets to college........ for General and Comparative Physiology we "pithed" frogs and turtles.... for the frogs this involves cutting the top of their heads off.... "oh they don't feel it" and then ram a poker down their spinal column... the frog convulses and then goes limp... his heart is still beating but he "can't feel a thing". Then we cut his leg off and separated the muscle from his body... then we discarded the body in the trash and shocked the muscle to see how long it reacted to electronic stimulation. for the turtles (big gorgeous pond turtles) we pulled their heads out with a string and chopped their heads off....... then we cut them open and removed their heart and stimulated it by squeezing it and slowly dissecting it until we isolated the Vagus Nerve. The turtle "couldn't feel a thing". It was sick. That is sick! I draw the line at fetal pig. (Though, I didn't enjoy that too much, either) I honestly didn't think that live animals were used for dissections. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 JoAnn, I'm guessing you're using the terms "torturing" and "murdered" on purpose to be funny b/c your dd is offended/upset? I get that humor, actually. I'm glad you posted and gave more detail. I agree that putting the butterfly out of its misery was kind. It wasn't murder. (I'm assuming that the butterfly would have starved to death without the properly formed probiscus. I'm also assuming to die that way would have been painful for the insect.) Can you tell us more about where you got the ideas for these experiements? I agree with the pp who said that they'd prefer to talk/read about these animals' abilities rather than watch/measure them. My oldest is squeamish, so we wouldn't be able to do anything that might really seem to hurt the animal. Do you think the ladybug felt pain being underwater? What about the salt? Why the salt? (I'm sorry -- I'm ignorant about this and didn't know ladybugs would be able to recover from all that. I actually find that pretty cool.) The goldfish thing strikes me an unnecessary, though. I'm not squeamish about feeding goldfish to another animal and I've done that before, but honestly purposefully freezing it to death bothers me just a bit. Or does it not die? Is it like what happens to fish in the bottom of my pond in the winter? Are you really planning "torture?" (Please say you were just being funny.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her. She shouldn't have to do them. I've looked into this and found that most states allow a student to opt out for ethical reasons as long as they are willing to do an alternative project that helps them learn the same information. If push came to shove, I'd completely support my child taking a zero rather than intentionally inflicting pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 This is essentially the same goldfish experiment. And another as a science fair project for 7th grade. Enotes has the tadpole experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) No...because I would never let the kids do those sorts of experiments on living creatures. :( Same with us. We do raise living creatures for study -- triops, frogs, caterpillars, pill bugs, etc. -- and also purchase organisms and organs for dissections, but nothing involving more than the most basic and brief experiments with living creatures, like seeing if an animal is light averse. Edited March 17, 2011 by nmoira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfatherslily Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 At the zoo, we've seen that the animals behave differently depending on the temperature being very hot, very cold, or comfortable. I would think that the goldfish experiment would be similar to how the koi behave in different seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 JoAnn, I'm guessing you're using the terms "torturing" and "murdered" on purpose to be funny b/c your dd is offended/upset? I get that humor, actually. I'm glad you posted and gave more detail. She wasn't upset...just commenting on it. I don't have the word to describe the tone, but she wasn't upset. I was being facetious; I thought it would be obvious. I didn't expect the backlash. I agree that putting the butterfly out of its misery was kind. It wasn't murder. (I'm assuming that the butterfly would have starved to death without the properly formed probiscus. I'm also assuming to die that way would have been painful for the insect.) Yes, it was starving to death so we put it to sleep with alcohol in a jar. Can you tell us more about where you got the ideas for these experiements? They are in the elementary Apologia textbooks, though you can find them in other places. I linked to the goldfish and tadpole ones online. I agree with the pp who said that they'd prefer to talk/read about these animals' abilities rather than watch/measure them. My oldest is squeamish, so we wouldn't be able to do anything that might really seem to hurt the animal. Do you think the ladybug felt pain being underwater? What about the salt? Why the salt? (I'm sorry -- I'm ignorant about this and didn't know ladybugs would be able to recover from all that. I actually find that pretty cool.) All insects have the ability to close their spiracles if they find themselves in water. This keeps them from drowning, though I'm sure they can't stay under indefinitely, but the couple of minutes it takes to "drown" an insect won't kill it. Once the heavy rains dry up or they are otherwise removed from the water, they will naturally dry up and continue on with their life. The salt is added to speed up the drying out process. The goldfish thing strikes me an unnecessary, though. I'm not squeamish about feeding goldfish to another animal and I've done that before, but honestly purposefully freezing it to death bothers me just a bit. Or does it not die? Is it like what happens to fish in the bottom of my pond in the winter? You aren't freezing the fish to death just making the water a bit warmer and a bit colder. Goldfish can withstand a large variation of water temperature, which is why they are chosen. They will show behavioral changes like reduced or rapid breathing, depending on the water temperature. This is because of the changes of oxygen in the water, I believe (I haven't read the background information yet.) With your pond...if it partially freezes for a short time (and doesn't freeze solid), a goldfish will survive if there is enough oxygen in the water. Are you really planning "torture?" (Please say you were just being funny.) I guess it depends on your definition of torture. Apparently, this is torture for some people. Yes, I do intend on completing the experiments. My daughter wants to keep the goldfish as a pet if we can keep it safe from our cats. The tadpoles will be caught at a nearby pond and released back to the pond once they've grown into frogs. The experiment simply shows that temperature changes speed up their development. My understanding is that the warmer one will develop into a frog faster; the room temperature one will still develop into a frog but it will take longer. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Do all of you who think this is cruel think that nature has consistent temperature and lighting? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wouldn't perform those experiments. Not because I think the animals feel a great deal of pain, but because it goes against the Pagan ideal of harming none, which is something I try to teach my dd every day. I don't think that letting your kids temporarily drown an insect for fun sets a very good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I don't think they are really meant to be cruel. The ladybug experiment was to observe a very real ability that insects have: the ability to close the spiracles when faced with heavy rain. Once they dry off, they can continue on with life. The butterfly wasn't meant to happen. We were raising caterpillars, and one of them was deformed when he emerged. He was obviously struggling so we put him out of his misery faster. We haven't done the goldfish and tadpoles yet. Goldfish are used because they can withstand changes in water temperature naturally. The experiment specifically says not to use tropical fish. The tadpoles have you warming the water slightly by shining a normal 50-60w bulb on the tank for two hours a day. My guess is that they will both grow normally but one will do so faster. I don't have a problem with any of that. Do you have a specific science curriculum that you use that suggests these? (I'm looking for science for next year.) I didn't have a clue about any of that until I read your post. ETA: I should finish the thread before I ask a question. ;) Thanks for answering before I asked. :D Edited March 17, 2011 by gardening momma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wouldn't perform those experiments. Not because I think the animals feel a great deal of pain, but because it goes against the Pagan ideal of harming none, which is something I try to teach my dd every day. I don't think that letting your kids temporarily drown an insect for fun sets a very good example. But is it harm? Don't ladybugs get very wet in nature? Doesn't goldfish's and tadpoles' water get warm or cold in nature? How is it harm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't have a problem with any of that. Do you have a specific science curriculum that you use that suggests these? (I'm looking for science for next year.) I didn't have a clue about any of that until I read your post. The insect experiment was in Apology Zoology 1: Flying Creatures of the Fifth Day. The goldfish and tadpole experiments are in Apologia Zoology 2: Swimming Creatures of the Fifth Day. When I first starting using Apologia, I used to go to the library to get books to supplement our learning. I quit when I realized that none of the juvenile reading level books provided any additional information; in most cases, the textbook was more thorough than several library books combined. They have awakened a sense of awe and wonder in my kids that I didn't expect. For example, we all notice birds now and get excited when we see them in our yard. A few stellars jays or robins in the backyard is enough to bring school to a grinding halt. A trip to the wildlife refuge is exciting for my son, the only one willing to walk 4 miles. Before the flying creatures study, they just didn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Do all of you who think this is cruel think that nature has consistent temperature and lighting? :001_huh: No, but we prefer to observe nature in its NATURAL habitat. As someone pointed out these are more demonstrations/observations rather than experiments. There are alternatives to learning/viewing this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 But is it harm? Don't ladybugs get very wet in nature? Doesn't goldfish's and tadpoles' water get warm or cold in nature? How is it harm? Animals come to harm all the time in nature, and have evoloved mechanisms to help them survive. But I find it distasteful to intentionally harm an animal, regardless of the amount of physical pain the creature actually feels, just to show my dd the cool things it can do. Obviously that's my own personal belief, not what I think everyone should do. But our religious beliefs dictate that if we can avoid harm, that is the course we must take, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Changing the temperature as described isn't cruel in my book. It's just recreating the temperature differences in nature so the animals ability to adapt can be observed. I haven't seen any experiments in the elementary science books that I've looked at that have actually been cruel to creatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't think that the experiments described are cruel/torture. But they're definitely unusual! Just so you know, I knew that you were being humorous- that you didn't really mean you were torturing animals- I knew that before I even opened the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 We don't do any experiments that harm any sort of living creature. I have never even considered it, and if I did suggest it, I'm sure my girls would revolt. FWIW, I made it through several honors science classes in high school and nursing school without dissecting anything. I did alternate assignments. That was before virtual dissections were readily available. I will not be assisting my children with any dissections in the future. If they want to dissect something when they are older, I will find a way for them to do it, perhaps with their dad or another homeschool family. I will let them make that decision for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Your second set of descriptions sounds much less cruel than your first. With those descriptions I would probably do the goldfish & tadpole ones, & dd would love it. I would not do the ladybug one myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't consider any of those experiments are harmful to the creatures. The ladybug is equipped to deal with what we would consider drowning. It is NOT drowning, it's just handling excess water in the way it was designed for. If you drop a bird from the top of your roof to see it fly, would you be harming the bird by forcing it to fly? (assuming a perfectly healthy bird here). There's no permanent harm, and no temporary harm either in those experiments. Well, the butterfly was a mercy killing, that's something completely different, but it wasn't planned. It just happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 She wasn't upset...just commenting on it. I don't have the word to describe the tone, but she wasn't upset. I was being facetious; I thought it would be obvious. I didn't expect the backlash. :grouphug::grouphug: I got that you were being facetious. I'm sorry about the bit of flaming you got though. You were brave to put that question up. I don't think that the experiments you named were particularly cruel, but I do agree that science can be cruel. The experiments that the other poster mentioned in her Biology class were cruel. They would have made me pass out! I wouldn't have been able to do them. I had to take a lesser grade for the entire course in Biology when I was in college because I just couldn't dissect the frog. The lab teacher was kind enough to let me show her the organs on a diagram out in the hall, which I did know, I just couldn't do the dissection. I got a B in the class instead of an A because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Animals come to harm all the time in nature, and have evoloved mechanisms to help them survive. But I find it distasteful to intentionally harm an animal, regardless of the amount of physical pain the creature actually feels, just to show my dd the cool things it can do. Obviously that's my own personal belief, not what I think everyone should do. But our religious beliefs dictate that if we can avoid harm, that is the course we must take, period. I was asking, Is it harm? Define harm. Is warming or cooling the water to a temperature normally experienced still harm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug: I got that you were being facetious. I'm sorry about the bit of flaming you got though. You were brave to put that question up. I don't think that the experiments you named were particularly cruel, but I do agree that science can be cruel. The experiments that the other poster mentioned in her Biology class were cruel. They would have made me pass out! I wouldn't have been able to do them. I had to take a lesser grade for the entire course in Biology when I was in college because I just couldn't dissect the frog. The lab teacher was kind enough to let me show her the organs on a diagram out in the hall, which I did know, I just couldn't do the dissection. I got a B in the class instead of an A because of it. Thanks. I've always found it all fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynyel Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I won't be doing any dissecting or anything like it here. My ds9 saves moths and spiders that come in the house and puts them back outside. Moths I don't mind, spiders? They have a death warrant if they enter my domicile. Back to the point, my kids wouldn't like it. They would however love to watch tadpoles grow. I don't see the harm in the goldfish or tadpole "experiemnts". They seem more like creating a habitat for them rather than "torturing" them. If I had a goldfish in this house he/she would be cold in the winter and warm in the summer. Not much difference. Same with the tadpoles, some grow where there is some sun, others do not. I do not consider that torture. You are not hurting them in any way. As for the others? I might have trouble with the ladybug one, and I don't know that I could kill a butterfly but it doesn't sound as if it was the intention. All that to say depends on the experiment. I won't kill anything and I won't hurt anything. Thus I will stick to Physics, Physical Science and Chemistry. And will give a general overview of Biology and be done. One doesn't need to actually do experiments o understand Biology! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The goldfish thing strikes me an unnecessary, though. I'm not squeamish about feeding goldfish to another animal and I've done that before, but honestly purposefully freezing it to death bothers me just a bit. Or does it not die? Is it like what happens to fish in the bottom of my pond in the winter? I believe she said they'd cool the water (the bowl of water the fish is in) on ice, not that they'd freeze the fish (or put ice in the water, which is not the same as freezing the fish). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks. I've always found it all fascinating. And that may be the difference. I find nature and animals fascinating, I just don't want to obtain them solely for experimental purposes. Obviously if my child wanted to be a zoologist or a veterinarian we'd have to discuss the realities of how a scientist might need experiment with nature. I worked for a vet for five years. Some of things I saw were pretty gross, animals coming in in all conditions. Some I still won't share with anyone because they were disturbing. I'm glad the vet I worked for knew what to do, because he studied their anatomy and habits. My comfort level is very low when it comes to living things. The only experiments we do are when we test gravity by dropping a book or shoe on a spider. That's only because heart attacks are not healthy either. :D I'm thankful we have the option to skip those exercises. I'd much prefer a nice nature study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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