S/O of Great Schools Rankings.... If your school has a low ranking

[Jen in PA]

Do people using that school realize that there is a problem? Do they think the school is actually doing a decent job? Because I know that although our local elementary school is ranked a 2 (and from what I have seen, I think that's generous), my neighbors think it's average at worst. I have heard complaints about our district from parents of students who went from earning 4.0s in the college bound track at the high school to struggling through remedial courses as college freshman -- but parents of younger kids around here just seem so..... complacent.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

People here think the schools are wonderful although they score 3's. It is a small community and we all know the teachers, and it is hard to harshly judge the work of kind and generous people that you personally know. My cousin teaches in the local elementary and I know she is giving it all she's got. I'm not going to come along and say her school is failing. At least, not out loud in public.

 

Also, most of the residents here went to these schools, too. They are blue collar workers and not well-educated, themselves.

 

I've heard this called Lake Woebegon Syndrome. We Americans all think our children are above average.

[Dmmetler]

I have to be honest. I taught in a low rated school for 10 years-but I live in a high rated area.

 

Having looked at both schools, I'd seriously send my DD to the low rated school before the high rated school. The reason? The low rated school really was working hard to meet kids where they were and move them to the next level. They had MANY more supports for children below grade level, but they also had more supports for students above grade level-including sending a group of kids with an adult over to a 7-12 high school to take higher level math classes (with an adult to keep an eye on the kids as well as provide transportation-and even in that gang ridden, low performing high school, the big kids were really supportive of the elementary kids who were over there taking classes. It also helped that our kids were put in the TOP class for their grade level, not the lowest). And there was a lot of effort made to give kids multiple ways to learn. For example, we had a science lab and weekly lab science classes-but we also had a history lab which had a lot of artifacts, videos, books, and hands on exploration, including a kitchen, so the kids could try out recipes, costumes, and props. We had some serious reenactments going on at times, and lots of the sort of activities in the SOTW activity guide. Lots of books. A literacy library with class sets of many books that could have been drawn from the Sonlight list, to use in addition to the usual reading series.

 

As the music teacher, I taught all the kids general music-but we also had a guitar class, a choir, and the last two years, a band class with instruments. We had sports teams, dance team, and clubs after school.

 

We had after school and Saturday tutoring available to all students-and many of them took advantage of it (mostly because they got fed at tutoring, I suspect, but I think part of it was because they got to have a closer relationship with the teacher who led their group).

 

We wrote a lot of grants, used our title I funding, and, in general, tried to give the kids what they needed.

 

Our problem was that the kids didn't stay with us. Those we had K-3 were usually on grade level and tested proficent by grade 3. But we had an over 50% mobility rate in a given year. So we'd send a child to another school who was proficient, after a couple of years of working to bring the child up to level-and since our average K student entered with language skills typical of a 2 yr old, we had a long way to bring them, and get one who wasn't, often only days or weeks before their test scores counted for our school.

 

Our neighborhood school ranks a 10, but frankly, it ranks a 10 because almost all the moms stay at home, and most kids enter reading or at least with a bit of Hooked on Phonics under their belts. The public library has to do preregistration week-by-week for storytime, because otherwise it's overfilled, and the summer reading club usually runs out of prizes within the first few weeks because so many kids participate. Kumon and Mathnasium and Sylvan all have franchises, and all do a big business. So do music studios, sports teams, dance studios, and every other program.

 

This wonderful, high performing school had NO desire to deal with my daughter, even after their testing showed her to be gifted and several grades above her age/grade level. Their statement was "When she's in third grade, she'll qualify for APEX, and when she's in high school she can take IB". Meanwhile, when I looked at kindergarten classes, there were no signs of differentiation. Every single child was doing the same workbook, at the same time. Parent involvement was high-but it was in the form of fundraising, or putting on class parties, or in cutting out shapes for the bulletin board.

 

I also saw students who obviously needed more assistance completely ignored. It didn't seem to matter. After all, the subgroup isn't big enough to matter.

 

Looking up the grades, same thing. Nice school, nice kids, pretty hallways-but no flexibility, no higher order thinking-and nothing for my daughter.

 

The school also has little in the way of the special area programs my DD would enjoy. They do have drawing classes, starting in about 2nd grade. No foreign languages. No music except as taught by the classroom teacher. PE is walking on the track around the playground, a whole grade level at a time. Computer is used-but it's doing drill and practice for tests.

 

 

I wouldn't want to live in the neighborhood my former school was in-but honestly, if our local school had the offerings my former school had and had the kind of atmosphere, I probably wouldn't be homeschooling my DD.

[joannqn]

We just moved out of the district of an elementary that received a 3. I was told on a regular basis that it was a really good school, one of the best in Tacoma.

[Chris in VA]

Ours is a five, but we live in a pretty good area, it's just a lot of apartments and condos right here.

There are gangs all over Northern VA--I'm wondering what is factored in to make the great school score? (I just looked up our schools, I didn't peruse the site.)

[LittleIzumi]

Ours has a 4 & apparently got a new principle last year who is implementing positive changes.

[ElizabethB]

Most people do not, even in low ranking areas, from what I have seen. (And I have lived in many different areas and always quiz people about their schools and if they want a reading grade level test and how well their children are reading and if sight words are taught...)

 

Most people can accurately ID a 9 or 10 school, however.

 

Military people seem more aware of it, because they see a lot of different schools and realize the difference. That may be part of the reason military families homeschool at twice the rate of the civilian population. (Besides the stability and freedom to take off time when spouses return from deployments.)

 

The percentage of military people homeschooling and using private schools varies by the quality of the local schools and the cost and availability of private schools.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't know...my kid went to a low ranked school for a bit and there was a lot of chaos, I was the ONLY parent who showed up for the parties and field trips. Sure I understand people have to work but I didn't know the other parents at all. Surely people can show up for something.

 

Also there was a LOT of allergies in that class and people always sent the same garbage for parties like random piles of candy that never got opened because it could endanger some of the kids. It seemed like people didn't read the notes sent home at all and some of those notes I put in their kid's bags so I know they were being sent.

 

My dd and another student were winning all the academic awards but she seemed bored. She loves science and they just didn't spend very much time on it.

 

Most the parents thought it was a great school. I would see them at one event and they would talk about what a great school it was but I had never met them before. How did they know?

 

It seemed to me that they spent a lot of time on busy work and reviewing the same stuff over and over again.

[creekland]

People around here think our school is wonderful. Many move into the district for the "good schools." They rate a 5. Several of our top graduates have had a tough time adjusting to even basic colleges and many test into remedial classes.

[Parrothead]

Every where we've been we've been told that we should use the public school because it is the most wonderful place. With scores of 2 or 3, 4, 5, and 7 I do have to beg to differ.

[littlebug42]

People here definitely know how bad the schools are. No one is ever surprised that I homeschool when they find out what district I live in.

[redsquirrel]

I live in the only poorly rated school in the district. Everyone knows it is the lowest ranked. It is in the poorest neighborhood. It's so cliche that it makes me NUTS. I am in the school several times a week because my son has to go there for speech therapy and OT. I do have to say that the school seems to have it's hands FULL. I do not think the teachers are uncaring or not good. I think they are very often young teachers, new teachers. They work there a couple years then move to better discricts. These are poor kids. Over 60% get free lunch. These kids are my neighbors and I know a little bit of what their lives are like. They do not have books, unless they are free books sent home from some program or another. usually it is a stupid Disney book, nothing more than marketing. These parents are working several jobs, often helping to support extended family. For the most part, the families are small, only a couple kids, but the parents tend to be very young. Most kids going to that elementary school are not going to college.

 

It is also the 'autism' school. It has a specialized program/area. It looks really nice. I have to wonder if that brings down their test scores?

 

Many people assume we homeschool because of the neighborhood school. It is the opposite. We knew we wanted to homeschool and the low home prices in this neighborhood made it feasible.

 

edited to add: the free lunch rate at the neighborhood school is actually 78%. The economy has hit these folks harder than most, of course.

Edited February 25, 2011 by redsquirrel

[ocelotmom]

On the other hand, the closest schools to me get 8s, with none of the local schools getting lower than a 6, but I hear all the time about the struggling local schools.

[KidsHappen]

We live in an area with high ranking schools and people will lie, cheat and steal to try and falsely prove they live in this district so that there kids can go to our schools. I live about a mile from the county line and I can't tell you how many people use family or friend's addresses to register their kids here and then create false documents and lie to the notary to have the documents notarized so that their kids can go to school in this district. I have to prove our residence at least twice a year, as if that does any good. I don't even want to go into the zoning problems within district. :glare:

[justamouse]

there's a lot of ostriches where I live

[elegantlion]

We just moved to an area where the elementary is a 3, middle school a 6. Honestly we haven't discussed school with anyone so I can't say.

 

Where we just moved from the elementary, middle, and high school were all a 9. However, the community comments were not as wonderful. One person gave the middle school a 1 star and stated all they do is teach to the test with no regard to individual needs.

[texasmama]

Our elementary school is ranked a 2. We live in the country and happen to be in a kind of no man's land in which one side of the street is districted to one city and the other side is districted to another. We are on the "wrong side of the street".

 

To answer your question, no - I don't think that the people who send their kids to the local school realize that the school is very poor. It is a very impoverished area with a lot of immigrants who are ESL speakers (or don't speak English at all) and who did not graduate from high school.

[ChiMomNP]

I'm sure they do. We are here temporarily while I do my doctorate and I have zero involvement in the area. The area is poor, minority and forgotten. I'm sure the teachers try but there is only so much you can do when so many social problems weigh on these children everyday.

[Tap]

I think it has to do with personal experiences as much as academics. Ds16 went to our local public elementary school 2/3rd grade. I won't go into the whole story, but one thing that appalled me the most was that since he was bright he got to 'help' the other students with their work. The teachers told me time and again, how wonderful this was for him to help him cement this learning he was getting. BUT to me....he was finishing his work so fast, and then helping to teach others the same material he already mastered......I understand this is good, but seriously once he mastered it, he wasn't learning anything from helping others, he was just wasting time he could have spent actually learning something! I bought into this for a while, but after seeing how little work he was bringing home, and day after day hearing him tell me how he spent his time helping Dylan, I realized that the teacher really only cared about the lower end students and the bright ones....were becoming teachers aides.

 

A student teacher ran his classroom for the first 1/2 of the year, and then the actual teacher couldn't answer basic questions about my son in Feb, because she hadn't been in the classroom....at ALL. :glare: The student teacher was very green and didn't know what she was doing. When I asked about placing him in a classroom the following year that didn't have a student teacher...I was told they ALL did, and the full time teachers were on special projects.

 

I could go on for a long time with Major issues I had with that school.

 

 

But, I have a friend who loves the school and purposefully lives in the district to keep her daughter there.

She likes that is is small and tight-knit~~~ I see it as small and very overcrowded.

She likes that it isn't overwhelming for her kids~~~ I see a library so small, I don't know why they bother.

She sees grass roots and not flashy~~~I see a lack of resources for basic technology, equipment, and books.

She sees a full staff~~~I see a school that advertises 'very experienced teachers' but actually uses student teachers to teach.

She likes that she knows everyone~~~I see that you had better know everyone, because you may need to sit on their lap at the next 'back to school night'.

She wants her kids to leave school with a sense of community~~~I want mine to leave with an education.

She likes that special needs kids needs are met~~~I see that the other kids are the ones teaching them, at their own sacrifice.

 

It is all about perspective.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Tap, tap, tap

[Veritaserum]

The school my kids would attend has a rank of 2. Most of the other parents in the neighborhood seem fine with it. I have one neighbor who wants to homeschool, but her dh isn't on board. Her dd attends a charter school that is ranked 7.

[FaithManor]

Well, not to disparage the peoples of this area, but unfortunately, their outlook is a little skewed. Let me say that they are good people who would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and that's worth a lot! But, many, many, many people that I encounter are of this mentality, "It was good enough for me growing up!" or "There ain't much I can do about it so I guess it will have to be good enough." or "They'll figure it out somehow."

 

This is because a huge portion of them were able to get jobs just out of high school within the manufacturing plants and make excellent money/benefits without any further academic or applied skills education. There was a significant percentage that managed to get into these jobs in the 60's and 70's without high school diplomas. Others went into the military when it was possible to do so without a high school diploma as well. They got their training through the service, spent 25-30 years serving, and retired well. They should retire well...they served our nation with a high calling and the knowledge that at any time they could be laying down their life for us. But, it also created a certain educational apathy amongst many of these now parents because they've been so successful and provided quite well for their families without going beyond high school educationally.

 

Those jobs have left our state and the military, being a high tech employer these days, wants more. Yes, it's possible to go in as infantry with a GED or high school diploma. It's also easy to miss promotions and remain in the land of "private" or "airman" for a very long time while others who came in to fill very specific roles and engage in specific training while working on a degree, surpass you quickly. So, the options of making a living without a much deeper education than what they received as children, is pretty limited. As one airman put it, "These days if you don't have a degree, you'll be stuck scraping bird ***t off a runaway in Guam for 20 years!"

 

Add to that, that parental volunteerism is not a mantra of this area. The mantra is, "I raised 'em until they were five. It's the school's job now; that's what their paid for." So, a high portion of the parents aren't aware of what is going on and are living in denial that their child needs more. Honestly, I have a lot of neighbors that wouldn't be bothered if the local elementary were rated -9. They'd just go on assuming that it will all some how, some way, be okay. They follow the path of least resistance.

 

They aren't bad parents. Most that I've met, really love their kids. They are naive parents. Our closest neighbor has a little boy in 2nd grade. He still doesn't know all of his consonant sounds. He can't really read at all. He can count and he knows a few math facts but not many. She had him tested and he doesn't have any learning disabilities; he's been labeled as lazy by the teachers. I'm pretty sure that his big problem was that he was four when he went, his daddy had recently left which meant his life was in turmoil, and he wasn't emotionally mature enough to do the work. But, she needed free day care, he was old enough to go, and he was already quite tall for his age.

 

He is slipping through the cracks. She doesn't think there is anything she can do about it and as she put it too me, "Well, the school will eventually figure it out and he'll find something to do with himself." My fear is that a. the school won't figure it out because with 40 children per classroom, no paid aides (just two adults that spend 30 min. - 1 hr. in each classroom), and no parent volunteers, I'm hard pressed to consider who is going to do the figuring out, and b. the something he finds to do, once his self-esteem is in the toilet, could be very bad indeed! I tried to get her to let me tutor him, but she can't get it through her head that it doesn't take teacher certification to teach him to read. (I guess that's what I get for letting mine expire!)

 

School board meetings get very heated around here and usually it's because either the parents got wind of something pretty hideous ie. the time two high school girls decided to poison another girl on the cheerleading squad so their friend could be bumped up from first alternate, or THE SPORTS BUDGET MIGHT ACTUALLY SEE A CUT OF SOME KIND, OR THE BLEECHERS MIGHT NOT BE REPAINTED YET AGAIN, or THEY MIGHT CHARGE MORE AT THE CONCESSION STAND!

 

I know I sound cynical. It's hard not to be. Academics or the lack there of, classroom size, loss of lab facilities due to loss of funding, elimination of field trips, etc. none of these are typical reasons that parents show up for board meetings and PTA. I, the crazy loon homeschooling mom who people can not figure out because "why would she care what happens up here when she doesn't send her kids to school", am one of the lone parents that shows up to express concerns over the academic environment of the schools district. There are a handful that do get it. We are a tiny majority.

 

Therefore, it is difficult for me to imagine that any kind of low rating would be of any significance to my neighbors. But, I think that as the unemployment rate in this county continues to hover at 17-20% with wages in stagnation for over six years, and knowing that the state and county will not be hiring soon and when they do, you better be skilled, it's possible that the community will wake up. I hope they do before it is too late!

 

Faith

[Jen in PA]

 

Therefore, it is difficult for me to imagine that any kind of low rating would be of any significance to my neighbors. But, I think that as the unemployment rate in this county continues to hover at 17-20% with wages in stagnation for over six years, and knowing that the state and county will not be hiring soon and when they do, you better be skilled, it's possible that the community will wake up. I hope they do before it is too late!

 

Faith

 

This is the situation here. A few decades ago men around here could leave school without a diploma, work in the mines, afford a home, vacations, their wives didn't have to work, and they could retire in their 50s with a good pension. People here still talk about computers as if they are a new technology. I think that mentality really is a large part of the reason they don't push for any real school improvements.

[Erica in PA]

Do people using that school realize that there is a problem? Do they think the school is actually doing a decent job? Because I know that although our local elementary school is ranked a 2 (and from what I have seen, I think that's generous), my neighbors think it's average at worst. I have heard complaints about our district from parents of students who went from earning 4.0s in the college bound track at the high school to struggling through remedial courses as college freshman -- but parents of younger kids around here just seem so..... complacent.

 

Our local elementary school is a 4, and the parents around here rave about what a wonderful school it is. I had never seen this rating before, and I'd have thought based on what I've heard, that this school would be in the 8-10 range. It reminds me of a quote I read in a book once that said that surverys show that a majority of people think schools in general are below par, but only a tiny minority thinks that their locals schools are.

[Crimson Wife]

When we first started HS, the school for which we were zoned bragged about how it was a "California Distinguished School" at the same time it ranked in the bottom 20% in the state for schools with similar demographics. The other two elementary schools in the town had similar schools ranking in the bottom 30%. I kept running into people who told me they moved to the town for the "great schools" and would wonder how they could be so naive.

[Just Robyn]

The school my kids would be going to is ranked 2. I haven't personally talked to anyone about that specific school. My husband said one of the neighbors was talking to him once and really talking the school up and basically trying to convince him we should send our children there.

 

In general, people here often say that our state has the best schools in the country. I'm not sure when or where that idea started. At this point it's just one of those things that people have heard enough times they assume it's true and repeat it.

[Sue G in PA]

In our small, rural town, the ES is ranked a 4 and I can see why. My town isn't a very affluent town. The middle schools rate higher...partly b/c they are pulling from several different elem. schools...3 of which are in middle-upper class towns where the elem. schools rate fairly high. The high school also rates low. It makes me wonder b/c the high school pulls ONLY from the middle school. Seems the middle school (we have 2 buildings...one for 5th/6th and one for 7th/8th) ratings could be due to the above average instruction at the more affluent elementary schools and the low high school ratings might be due in part to subpar preparation in the 7th/8th building. Make sense? I don't know.

[redsquirrel]

well, it bothers me a lot. It bothers me because I don't live in a poor town. I just live in the poor neighborhood. It is really troublesome to me that the school two blocks away is a 2 and a school 4 blocks away is a 9. And the other elementary schools, all within reasonable walking or biking distance, are 8 or 9 or 10. But the school with the poor kids and almost all the black kids, btw, is a 2?

 

There is something very wrong with that.

 

and it's not just that 'great school' ranking. The NCLB school report cards just came out and the disparity between my neighborhood school and the others is shocking. Those 8, 9 or 10 local schools are all scoring in the 80 and 90%. My neighborhood school is in the 30 and 40% and that is an improvment.

 

I am angry for those kids. I live in this neighborhood. I know these kids. It makes me sad that the rest of the community is so quick to just write them off.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

well, it bothers me a lot. It bothers me because I don't live in a poor town. I just live in the poor neighborhood. It is really troublesome to me that the school two blocks away is a 2 and a school 4 blocks away is a 9. And the other elementary schools, all within reasonable walking or biking distance, are 8 or 9 or 10. But the school with the poor kids and almost all the black kids, btw, is a 2?

 

There is something very wrong with that.

 

and it's not just that 'great school' ranking. The NCLB school report cards just came out and the disparity between my neighborhood school and the others is shocking. Those 8, 9 or 10 local schools are all scoring in the 80 and 90%. My neighborhood school is in the 30 and 40% and that is an improvement.

 

I am angry for those kids. I live in this neighborhood. I know these kids. It makes me sad that the rest of the community is so quick to just write them off.

 

Yeah. They are all America's children and America's future, but their future is being decided for them based on where in America they live.

[ElizabethB]

 

They aren't bad parents. Most that I've met, really love their kids. They are naive parents. Our closest neighbor has a little boy in 2nd grade. He still doesn't know all of his consonant sounds. He can't really read at all. He can count and he knows a few math facts but not many. She had him tested and he doesn't have any learning disabilities; he's been labeled as lazy by the teachers. I'm pretty sure that his big problem was that he was four when he went, his daddy had recently left which meant his life was in turmoil, and he wasn't emotionally mature enough to do the work. But, she needed free day care, he was old enough to go, and he was already quite tall for his age.

 

He is slipping through the cracks. She doesn't think there is anything she can do about it and as she put it too me, "Well, the school will eventually figure it out and he'll find something to do with himself." My fear is that a. the school won't figure it out because with 40 children per classroom, no paid aides (just two adults that spend 30 min. - 1 hr. in each classroom), and no parent volunteers, I'm hard pressed to consider who is going to do the figuring out, and b. the something he finds to do, once his self-esteem is in the toilet, could be very bad indeed! I tried to get her to let me tutor him, but she can't get it through her head that it doesn't take teacher certification to teach him to read. (I guess that's what I get for letting mine expire!)

 

:grouphug:

 

Here are some ideas:

 

1. I'll certify you! Read my how to tutor page, and I'll give you a certificate! (I'm sure you would be good to go even without reading it!!) I can make up a nice one, I worked in a large government bureaucracy before I was promoted to mom!!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

2. Give her a money back guarantee, but tell her he must attend at least 5 lessons (it takes 3 to 5 for things to start clicking) before terminating the contract, at which point money will be refunded if no progress has been made.

 

3. Have him watch my phonics lessons. (With one of your children if that would make it more palatable.)

 

4. Show her this graph correlating literacy level to earnings: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

Here's a funny thing from Toe-by-Toe about professionals:

 

Q: Is this book solely for the use of teachers or other professionals?

A: No. Teachers are often restricted by classroom procedures. Parents have no such procedures to inhibit them; they start with a 'clean slate.'

Edited February 25, 2011 by ElizabethB

[Stacy in NJ]

Many of the schools in my area are rated 10. The population they serve is affluent, usually college educated, and almost all white. Are these schools really more "effective" or do they just process the kids of rich, white, smart people?

 

A school in a district 3 over from mine has the lowest ranking in our county; it's ranked at 7. When I clicked over to the test breakdown section it clearly shows that the white kids in this school do as well as the white kids in the neighboring district ranked at 10. They had equivalent test scores. But, because there is a black population with lower overall scores, the school ranked at 7 has a lower over all average. Unfortunately, socio-economics and race are huge predictors of outcome.

[Stacy in NJ]

When comparing schools it's really important to compare by demographics. When a school does a superior job compared to others with a similar populations, then you have a Great School. Otherwise, it's mostly BS.

[redsquirrel]

Many of the schools in my area are rated 10. The population they serve is affluent, usually college educated, and almost all white. Are these schools really more "effective" or do they just process the kids of rich, white, smart people?

 

A school in a district 3 over from mine has the lowest ranking in our county; it's ranked at 7. When I clicked over to the test breakdown section it clearly shows that the white kids in this school do as well as the white kids in the neighboring district ranked at 10. They had equivalent test scores. But, because there is a black population with lower overall scores, the school ranked at 7 has a lower over all average. Unfortunately, socio-economics and race are huge predictors of outcome.

 

See, that is what I am wondering. How hard can it be to get a 10 or really high test scores when you have a population of kids whose parents take them to Europe every summer. And yes, I have friends who do that. They are wonderful people, very loving and involved parents but they have a lot of money to throw at any problem. My friend will buy any educational computer game if it sounds like it will help her kids, buy them any book they want, sign them up for any lesson they want to try. She is home every day to help them with their homework. How hard it it to teach her kids?

 

As far as I can tell, socio-economics and race predict education which predict job which predict neighborhood which predict tax base which predict education. It's a system that is hard to leave.

 

Can't we do better? It is 2011, people. We should be doing better.

[jujsky]

People in my district know it's bad, and they blame it on the % of ESL students in the school. I think that's a fair assessment. They're required to take the same test and are held to the same standards, but most of these kids come into school speaking no English at all and it's not spoken in the home. How can they reasonably be expected to score well? There is a large % of Hispanic children. The district is also low-income. All the odds are against them doing well on those tests. The elementary school in our wealthiest district is a 9. The children are mostly Caucasian, Asian, or Indian and their parents are mostly engineers, doctors, and lawyers.

[Stacy in NJ]

Can't we do better? It is 2011, people. We should be doing better.

 

I completely agree. Some schools are breaking the model, though. I volunteer at a charter school that serves disadvantaged kids in a extremely bad neighborhood. Most of the kids are poor, black, and from single parent homes. While most of the regular ps's in the area score a 3 on the Great Schools scale, this school scores an 8. Parents stand in line for the lottery to get into this school every year. They cry when their kids don't get in. This school receives only 2/3 the funding level as its neighbor schools. (That's how charters are funded in NJ). Some school actually are great, unfortunately too many adults actively work to deprive kids of the schools they need.

[redsquirrel]

The two of the '10' schools in my district are the ESL school.

[Stacy in NJ]

If you click on the test details section (at Great Schools) you can see how the different ethnic groups in your schools perform on standized tests. It is possible that the ELS students lower the overall average of the school, but you can see how the white and black kids do as well.

 

People in my district know it's bad, and they blame it on the % of ESL students in the school. I think that's a fair assessment. They're required to take the same test and are held to the same standards, but most of these kids come into school speaking no English at all and it's not spoken in the home. How can they reasonably be expected to score well? There is a large % of Hispanic children. The district is also low-income. All the odds are against them doing well on those tests. The elementary school in our wealthiest district is a 9. The children are mostly Caucasian, Asian, or Indian and their parents are mostly engineers, doctors, and lawyers.

[kalanamak]

Do people using that school realize that there is a problem?

 

My little town in a town has higher taxes and is only a 4, but just across the line the schools are 2s, so I think they think they are in hog heaven. Reading the "pluses" at the school my son would go it, "P.E. and chorus" for a k-3 school just doesn't ring my bell.

 

That said, our state testing just makes me boil. There are perfectly well-standardized tests like the IOWA or the CAT, but no, they have to spend who knows how much making a completely independent just for us test. Year after year there are problems. Money down the rat hole.

[kalanamak]

We just moved out of the district of an elementary that received a 3. I was told on a regular basis that it was a really good school, one of the best in Tacoma.

 

Lies, lies. Or maybe they mean "fun" for good. If you look around the site, there are several 9 schools in the area.

[kalanamak]

Well, not to disparage the peoples of this area, but unfortunately, their outlook is a little skewed. Let me say that they are good people who would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and that's worth a lot! But, many, many, many people that I encounter are of this mentality, "It was good enough for me growing up!" or "There ain't much I can do about it so I guess it will have to be good enough." or "They'll figure it out somehow."

 

 

:iagree:Good thing I love most of my co-workers, or I just couldn't take the "don't got nones" I hear all day. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Edited February 25, 2011 by kalanamak

[creekland]

Well, not to disparage the peoples of this area, but unfortunately, their outlook is a little skewed. Let me say that they are good people who would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it and that's worth a lot! But, many, many, many people that I encounter are of this mentality, "It was good enough for me growing up!" or "There ain't much I can do about it so I guess it will have to be good enough." or "They'll figure it out somehow."

 

Faith

 

You and I live in a very similar area. When my oldest hit middle school we went in to talk with the principal to see what opportunities there were for him. The principal flat out told us, "Public school isn't here for the top student. They will do well no matter what program you use or where they go. Public school is here for the average student. Around here the average student joins the military, goes to community college, or works at ____." And I'll admit, our school prepares students well for those futures... I think. We let our oldest stay in through middle school, but pulled him out when he reached high school. My only regret is not having pulled him out about 7th grade instead of waiting until 9th.

 

Now my youngest is back in for 9th grade by his desire. He's seen all that we've talked about and has brought "stories" home. Fortunately, he doesn't mind (too much) doing additional work at home to make up for a substandard education at school.

[elise1mds]

My elementary is a 3. The middle school is a 1, and the high school is a 2. There are SO many reasons I am not EVER going to send my children to any of them.

 

The district does know how bad these schools are. Apparently the elementary school is one of the poorest in the entire city, and the swim school my son attends held their annual Christmas clothes/gifts fundraiser to benefit that school. My son saw that, and it made him so sad. Anyway, like I said, the district does know. The middle school is on the "Improvement" list for NCLB and the high school recently got its format changed to be a magnet school for journalism and broadcast media in order to try to attract more students from better demographics, but from what I know, it hasn't done much good.

 

I don't know whether the parents know how bad these schools are or not. I'm never up there to find out and don't really have friends who live on this side of town (schools are a large reason for that). I imagine many parents around here are in the position of feeling like they don't have another choice, which means that neither time nor money are at their disposal to help the schools improve. I know the parents of middle school kids whine every year about having to chuck money into their kids' clothes to purchase the required uniforms, but I know that's the school really trying to even the playing field a bit. I think they're doing their best, but it's truly an uphill battle when the kids are coming from such a disadvantaged place to begin with. It's just one reason I don't mind paying the private school tuition. FWIW, the 5 reviews my daughter's school has are all five stars.

[MrsMe]

These scores don't mean much. They said they're simply comparing them to other schools in your state. So your state could be last on the list of the US, but still be a 10 school because it's just not as lousy as the rest in the state.

[JessieC]

Our local elementary, which dd attends now for K, is a 3. It never makes AYP in math or reading. However, I don't really blame the school for this. The teachers are mostly very good and are working very hard to get kids up to level in reading and math.

 

The problem is the population of our town, which is a small town in northern New England. There are a lot of impoverished families here and many of them are transient, moving from one town to another in the general area when their lease is up or they get evicted. The teachers in the school have to work on fundamentals--not just basic letter sounds and numbers, but appropriate behavior and general nutrition. They are trying to get past the designation of being a failing school, but as a result they have to drill reading and math from K, and then more educated families opt for a private school (or to homeschool) because their dc are bored or the other students are too rough, so the kids that would help the school improve leave.

 

It's a sad situation--schools that are designated as "failing" get worse partly BECAUSE they were designated as failing.

 

I almost feel guilty for pulling dd out and perpetuating the cycle, but she is bored.

 

Jessica

[mommymilkies]

Yes, they know there is a problem, but countering the politics of equal outcome is tricky.

 

NY State has recognized the problem of students earning straight As in college prep, scoring decently on Regent's exams and placing into college remedial. The Regents has a survey here:

http://www.p12.nysed.gov/ccr/ for NYers that are interested in being part of the solution. The actual solution is going to be political. Some parents are well known to want high grades without actual, rigorous work...that takes a firm leader to counteract and put a vision of excellence into place.

 

We are not in NY, but that is a huge problem here. My dh teaches chemistry at the cc here and his foreign and adult (mostly ex-military) students are great, but even his formerly Honors high school graduates can barely read or write. They do numerous research papers, and graphing and at least 75% (according to what he sees-he teaches all of the chem classes) write with worse spelling and grammar than our young children. Completely illegible. This is one of the reasons he is so pro-homeschooling. The students here are just NOT at college level when they graduate-even when graduating with honors.

[MrsMe]

Are you trying to cheer us up? :lol:

 

Yes! And to also see the light for what this is! I'm in AZ and they have most of the lousiest schools in the US, but yet they score high, because they're comparing themselves to....well....themselves. :)

[jujsky]

If you click on the test details section (at Great Schools) you can see how the different ethnic groups in your schools perform on standized tests. It is possible that the ELS students lower the overall average of the school, but you can see how the white and black kids do as well.

 

They don't have the statistics broken down like that for this school (test scores broken down by ethnicity) but in predominantly-white NH, only 50% of the school is white. The largest minority group is the Hispanic population and they make up 38%. Many of them are newer immigrants and don't know English. I used to work HR at one company and I was a recruiter at a temp agency so I've worked with many of these people. The majority of them are hard-workers who only want a better life, but with little-no English and few skills, they tend to work many, many hours in low-skill, low-paying jobs. Their children do not know English going into school and often don't get to spend a lot of time with their parents since they are often working more than one job to get by. The parent comment section says in many ways it's a great school with caring teachers, but the test scores are a reflection of the ESL students.

 

 

I am sure it's not ONLY the ESL kids in this school. There are plenty of white, English-speaking children in the lower-income part of this school zone too. There are actually plenty of ESL students at our best school in our district (a 9) but those children are mostly Asian and Indian. Their parents are generally well-educated engineers/high-tech employees, and while their English isn't perfect, these parents push the schools to give their children ESL classes and have the time (since they're working one job and not 2 or more) to work with their children one-on-one at home.

 

I think the disparity is more socio-economic than anything, but unskilled laborers who don't speak English are more often than not going to be stuck in a lower socio-economic class. While it's unfair, there is only so much a school can do. Schools are here to educate, but they can't completely alter every child's home-life circumstances. In order to have the same chance at the same education, the socio-economic playing-field would need to be leveled. It affects a child's nutrition, safety, the value their parents place on education, their parents' ability to help them with their school work and communicate with teachers, their knowledge-base coming into school, etc. People bemoan the fact that it's 2011 and nothing is being done to give these kids an equal education, but I honestly don't know how most schools can do that. I know in our district the school that is a 9 and the school that is a 2 both get the same amount of money/student, so it's not a matter of more money in the schools. More than anything it's parental involvement and the carry-over at home. If people are too busy trying to survive OR just apathetic when it comes to the education of their children, there is little a school will be able to do.

[Crimson Wife]

Many of the schools in my area are rated 10. The population they serve is affluent, usually college educated, and almost all white. Are these schools really more "effective" or do they just process the kids of rich, white, smart people?ge. Unfortunately, socio-economics and race are huge predictors of outcome.

 

This is why I really like California's "similar schools" ranking. I don't find it all that useful to know how well the school compares to all the other schools in the state. I care how well it does compared to schools serving a similar demographic profile. The school for which we are zoned now has an overall ranking of 9/10 (second-highest) but a "similar schools" ranking of 3/10 (3rd lowest). Based on its demographic profile, it ought to be doing a lot better than it really is.

[Renee in NC]

They don't have the statistics broken down like that for this school (test scores broken down by ethnicity) but in predominantly-white NH, only 50% of the school is white. The largest minority group is the Hispanic population and they make up 38%. Many of them are newer immigrants and don't know English. I used to work HR at one company and I was a recruiter at a temp agency so I've worked with many of these people. The majority of them are hard-workers who only want a better life, but with little-no English and few skills, they tend to work many, many hours in low-skill, low-paying jobs. Their children do not know English going into school and often don't get to spend a lot of time with their parents since they are often working more than one job to get by. The parent comment section says in many ways it's a great school with caring teachers, but the test scores are a reflection of the ESL students.

 

 

I am sure it's not ONLY the ESL kids in this school. There are plenty of white, English-speaking children in the lower-income part of this school zone too. There are actually plenty of ESL students at our best school in our district (a 9) but those children are mostly Asian and Indian. Their parents are generally well-educated engineers/high-tech employees, and while their English isn't perfect, these parents push the schools to give their children ESL classes and have the time (since they're working one job and not 2 or more) to work with their children one-on-one at home.

 

I think the disparity is more socio-economic than anything, but unskilled laborers who don't speak English are more often than not going to be stuck in a lower socio-economic class. While it's unfair, there is only so much a school can do. Schools are here to educate, but they can't completely alter every child's home-life circumstances. In order to have the same chance at the same education, the socio-economic playing-field would need to be leveled. It affects a child's nutrition, safety, the value their parents place on education, their parents' ability to help them with their school work and communicate with teachers, their knowledge-base coming into school, etc. People bemoan the fact that it's 2011 and nothing is being done to give these kids an equal education, but I honestly don't know how most schools can do that. I know in our district the school that is a 9 and the school that is a 2 both get the same amount of money/student, so it's not a matter of more money in the schools. More than anything it's parental involvement and the carry-over at home. If people are too busy trying to survive OR just apathetic when it comes to the education of their children, there is little a school will be able to do.

 

This is very, very true. There are some schools that are doing a tremendous job with low-income students, but their programs are (generally) self-selecting. I am thinking specifically of the charters like KIPP - parents and students both have to agree to certain standards and rules. The parents/students who can/will put forth the extra effort choose to attempt to gain entrance.

[Miss Sherry]

Well, I am so out of the loop on this whole school ranking thing. How do you know what your ps ranking is ?

[Dobela]

The ranking of schools in may state (on that site) was done solely based on standardized test results. It doesn't tell anything else. If the ranking is low, it doesn't mean that the teaching is poor. The teaching may be excellent - but with kids who are ESL, or have other problems, or it may be that it is a rare school that doesn't teach to the test. The lowest scoring schools in my area were one that only has special needs students with severe emotional issues, severe learning issues, or need an alternative setting for some reason. The teachers are regularly recognized as some of the best, but these kids are just not going to do well on standardized tests. The other school is in a poor area of town with many ESL families. Many times I have heard a friend on the school board say that is the best school in the district. The teachers go the extra mile, the programs are amazing, and so on. In fact, when she had the choice, she sent all 3 of her kids there. They excelled. Yes, the ESL students and the poor background students brought down overall school test scores. They have more serious things to consider and work towards than a score on a test. There were almost no parent rankings - I wonder if that is because computers in the home could be rarity for that school?