IndoctriNation - the movie about PS for Christians

[simka2]

That would come closer than calling it a religion, but still isn't an accurate description. There are religious people, even Christians, who strongly believe in a secular society and the separation of church and state. There are Christians who homeschool, but not for religious reasons, and with secular materials. Is their worldview secular, or is it religious? I suspect there's a bit of both. Secularism alone does not imply atheism, nor does it bind one to any particular worldview.

 

As for atheism being a worldview, that's not entirely accurate either. The only thing we atheists have in common is that we don't believe in any deities. One of my dearest friends, also an atheist was politically conservative when I first met her 8 years ago. While she no longer is, her atheist husband is still quite conservative . I've met atheists who are Libertarians. The only worldview we share, is that we have not seen evidence of the supernatural, and therefore don't believe that any exist.

 

As I said though, calling it a worldview is a bit more realistic than calling it a religion.

 

 

Well said!!! and thanks for the bolded part!!! I am one of those ;).

[secular_mom]

That would come closer than calling it a religion, but still isn't an accurate description. There are religious people, even Christians, who strongly believe in a secular society and the separation of church and state. There are Christians who homeschool, but not for religious reasons, and with secular materials. Is their worldview secular, or is it religious? I suspect there's a bit of both. Secularism alone does not imply atheism, nor does it bind one to any particular worldview.

 

As for atheism being a worldview, that's not entirely accurate either. The only thing we atheists have in common is that we don't believe in any deities. One of my dearest friends, also an atheist was politically conservative when I first met her 8 years ago. While she no longer is, her atheist husband is still quite conservative . I've met atheists who are Libertarians. The only worldview we share, is that we have not seen evidence of the supernatural, and therefore don't believe that any exist.

 

As I said though, calling it a worldview is a bit more realistic than calling it a religion.

:iagree:too, but I still find worldview acceptable where as 'religion' is just plain wrong. BTW, I gave up 'religion' long before I stopped believing in god. I'm sure there a lots more people who are Christian who don't consider themselves religious.

[Wheres Toto]

:iagree:too, but I still find worldview acceptable where as 'religion' is just plain wrong. BTW, I gave up 'religion' long before I stopped believing in god. I'm sure there a lots more people who are Christian who don't consider themselves religious.

:iagree: I know a lot of Christians who are "Easter/Christmas Christians". They consider themselves Christians, believe most of what they are "supposed" to believe but don't actually live it.

 

I've given up on religion but am still contemplating a Supreme Being.

 

ETA: I found both links - the movie and the article about the group behind the movie, extremely scary.

[simka2]

I watched the trailer and I don't get it. I cannot begin to understand why it is the PS job to teach my kids religion....or why the absence of teaching it is a bad thing.

 

It's my job to act as a conduit for them to be introduced to the God who loves them. That is noone else's responsibility...why would I even look for that from the schools?

 

The whole use of the proverbs verse..."The fear of God is the begininng of wisdom." Is really bothersome. The ps job is to teach academics...not wisdom.

 

My fantasy is an acdemically rigourus school system...leaveing their spiritual development between me and God.

[Gratia271]

I think the meaning of indoctrination in common parlance is to teach people to accept things/ideas/concepts devoid of any critical evaluation, teaching them what to think. Indoctrination is ubiquitous in our culture, whether family, schools, or Church. It is fear based. God forbid we teach our children how to think... they might disagree with us.

 

Regarding religion in general, religious instruction is not the role of the school.

[Gratia271]

Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders.

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

I watched the trailer and I don't get it. I cannot begin to understand why it is the PS job to teach my kids religion....or why the absence of teaching it is a bad thing.

 

It's my job to act as a conduit for them to be introduced to the God who loves them. That is noone else's responsibility...why would I even look for that from the schools?

 

The whole use of the proverbs verse..."The fear of God is the begininng of wisdom." Is really bothersome. The ps job is to teach academics...not wisdom.

 

My fantasy is an acdemically rigourus school system...leaveing their spiritual development between me and God.

I'm with you there. While I'm in the camp that says the Establishment Clause means Thou shalt not create a state religion, I do believe that if anywhere is needed a separation of church and state, as lately defined, it is within the school system. I firmly believe if we had schools that did not promote anything other than the finest academics our schools would not be in the shape they are in now. Possibly something just shy of the Chinese mother. Where there is no time for bullying, sex in the bathrooms, checking to see who has the better brand of shoes, etc.

[amey311]

I watched the trailer and I don't get it. I cannot begin to understand why it is the PS job to teach my kids religion....or why the absence of teaching it is a bad thing.

 

 

 

And which religion? ASsuming Christianity, which particular tenets? Old earth or young earth? Pentacostal or Methodist? Catholic, Presbyterian, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (but which Synod?), etc? Which version of the Bible is acceptable? Will there be censoring of the Bible - what parts will be acceptable to teach which age groups? And so on.

[the4Rs]

FWIW- I am not reconstructionist, nor do I say pull all Christian kids out. I merely thought the movie looked interesting. I just think more Christian parents need to be more aware of what their kids are being taught and exposed to and they need to be more proactive in teaching about following Christ rather than reactionary when they find their child slipping away.

 

And when we began homeschooling it wasn't about our faith. It was completely academic and family centered. But as we get further into it I love that our faith is so real and vibrant in our home and that I get so much more time and opportunity to discuss aspects of our faith with my kids.

 

I guess that's my worry for Christian families that utilize public school- do they even have the time to devote to raising up the next generation in faith when kids are gone a minimum of 6 hours a day and if they are in extra curriculars or sports then they are gone even more and then homework.... I just dont' know. Some can do it and do a great job but I guess sadly that is not what I see with a good portion of our families at church.

 

I don't know who the majority of the people are in the video so I can't comment on what they believe in. But I like to watch controversial movies (whether for or against my faith) because it brings up good discussion, I can hold it against the Bible and decide if it is scriptural or not, and it helps me hone what I truly believe about God and this world.

[Sevilla]

I watched the trailer and I think it is a fallacious argument - the public school system is not responsible for the decline of Christianity in America. That blame can fall squarely on the shoulders of parents, families, and churches that do not LIVE OUT the Gospel in their day to day lives. Comfortable, cloistered Christianity that is a system of do's-and-don'ts that get you into heaven when you die and provide you a safe way to live here on earth is so not at all what will inspire our kids to a strong and deep faith that lasts for life. Teaching our children how to think and live in a Christian in the midst of a society that does not share those beliefs (just like it was in the early church...ahem ;)) is what will help equip them with strength for life. I would highly recommend this book by Tim Kimmel (he's not pro-homeschool but I think his points about the common pitfalls of Christian parenting that lead to rebellion are very accurate and I have seen them come true in my own circle of peers and families).

 

Wasn't there just a conservative Christian group who did a study and found that WHERE/HOW a child went to school (homeschool or private school or public school) was not correlated to their religious faith as adults? I truly don't understand these culture war crusades against the public schools or the scary bogeyman they set up. As a Christian, I want nothing to do with it. Fear-based tactics like this movie seems to play upon (an evangelical parents' deepest fear is a child who leaves the faith) rarely lead to good fruit.

 

ETA: I think this article by a very conservative homeschooling guru (Reb Bradley) explains very well why we are losing our kids (regardless of educational techniques).

Edited January 15, 2011 by Sevilla

[Parrothead]

And which religion? ASsuming Christianity, which particular tenets? Old earth or young earth? Pentacostal or Methodist? Catholic, Presbyterian, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (but which Synod?), etc? Which version of the Bible is acceptable? Will there be censoring of the Bible - what parts will be acceptable to teach which age groups? And so on.

Yeah, I have a feeling the producers want their brand of Christianity to be the one and the heck with anyone else's. And that my friend is why they will never get further than the making/showing of this movie.

[Veritaserum]

Movies like this make me shudder. False dichotomy and all. I think if it airs in my city I will attend in a rainbow tshirt and a pro choice homeschooler button on my hat.

 

Could I sit by you? :)

 

This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists.

http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning

Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it.

 

I love Reason Magazine. It is one of the few I subscribe to. :) I read the linked article and shared excerpts with dh. His response was that the Reconstructionist beliefs (hardcore OT laws in a theocracy) would make a could suspense movie because they are so scary and extreme. Hey, I think I just got an idea for a dystopian novel....

[AuntieM]

Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders.

 

 

 

Wonderful comment... I am making a note of it!

 

This thread is very good, I appreciate seeing all sides of the issue.

 

Kathleen in VA, I so enjoyed your post. Thanks.

[Sevilla]

Here is the book with the studies that place of education did not affect faith as an adult (homeschool was included in this): Already Gone: : Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it by Ken Ham (Author), Britt Beemer (Author), with Todd Hillard

 

Of course...I don't necessarily agree with AiG's conclusions about how to reverse this trend. But I found their information interesting, especially in light of the trend of homeschooling children out of desire to make sure they have a strong faith as adults. It's not the homeschooling itself, it's how parents teach and mentor their children and how it is lived out in the home with genuine passion and deep faith (not fear and legalism).

[OnTheBrink]

I like what SWB says in the WTM, "I don't want my six year old taught religion in school. That's my job. It is my responsibility to teach my children what I believe, why I believe it, and why it makes a difference."

 

Bingo. I don't want my children indoctrinated with any beliefs contrary to my own, just as any non-Christian wouldn't want the same done with their children.

 

I've not seen this movie trailer and most likely won't bother with the movie.

[Tabrett]

Wasn't there just a conservative Christian group who did a study and found that WHERE/HOW a child went to school (homeschool or private school or public school) was not correlated to their religious faith as adults? I truly don't understand these culture war crusades against the public schools or the scary bogeyman they set up. As a Christian, I want nothing to do with it. Fear-based tactics like this movie seems to play upon (an evangelical parents' deepest fear is a child who leaves the faith) rarely lead to good fruit.

 

 

Yes. It was a book produced by Answers in Genesis called Already Gone. It is a very interesting read. It states that according to surveys of dc who did attend Sunday School, they (dc who were Sunday School attenders) are the most likely to quit attending church church as an adult. Home, private or public schooling had nothing to do with the lack of church attendance as an adult. It actually came as a surprise to the authors.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I watched the trailer and I don't get it. I cannot begin to understand why it is the PS job to teach my kids religion....or why the absence of teaching it is a bad thing.

 

It's my job to act as a conduit for them to be introduced to the God who loves them. That is noone else's responsibility...why would I even look for that from the schools?

 

The whole use of the proverbs verse..."The fear of God is the begininng of wisdom." Is really bothersome. The ps job is to teach academics...not wisdom.

 

My fantasy is an acdemically rigourus school system...leaveing their spiritual development between me and God.

:iagree: Exactly:D For those who are against public schools staying neutral on religion, which flavor of Chrisitianity do you propose they teach or which religion do you propose they teach? I say mine:D Of course, I am kidding:) I think it is important for the schools to stay neutral on religion IMHO. I would much rather teach my ds my beliefs than to leave it up to the schools;)

[HRAAB]

Really? Have you ever seen an atheist church, temple, or religious building? Where are their clergy? When are their meetings? What is the doctrine? Dogma? Ritual? Who do they worship? Prayer? Who do atheists pray to?

 

Being atheist in no way resembles any definition of a religion.

 

I absolutely agree with you. I am religious and I practice religion; atheists are not. Atheists might have very strongly held beliefs about certain things and a defined worldview, but that does not make them religious.

[Daisy]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

 

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

 

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

And I do believe there are plenty of solid Christian kids who come out of a public school education. I believe in a Sovereign God who is bigger than one particular educational choice.

 

As far as the actual documentary goes, Most of the time those movies don't change anyone's mind. They just make those who want to believe something feel better about their choices. It sounds interesting though.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Daisy

[Daisy]

And I'll add that I don't really feel public schools could do it any differently.

 

They HAVE to disconnect faith and reason because there are so many different faiths. Really there is no way around that with the current system. Some religious families are okay with that. A movie isn't going to change their mind.

 

This deficit though is exactly why our family feels public schools would be unable to fully educate our children. I was spending too much time trying to "after school" in faith. For our family it was easier to just do it all.

[Veritaserum]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

 

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

 

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

As a Christian who homeschools using secular materials for academic reasons, I obviously see no problem with NOT deliberately bringing religious context to math, etc. I believe in a reasonable, logical God, so I actually bring reason into my religious beliefs. Reason helps me puzzle through complex spiritual matters, which then increases my faith. :)

 

I don't want my kids to be educated in a way that implies a need to leave reason and logic at home on Sundays.

 

I think the hard line some Christians draw of Faith OR Reason is not helpful to spiritual growth. It's a false dilemma.

[Daisy]

As a Christian who homeschools using secular materials for academic reasons, I obviously see no problem with NOT deliberately bringing religious context to math, etc. I believe in a reasonable, logical God, so I actually bring reason into my religious beliefs. Reason helps me puzzle through complex spiritual matters, which then increases my faith. :)

 

I don't want my kids to be educated in a way that implies a need to leave reason and logic at home on Sundays.

 

I think the hard line some Christians draw of Faith OR Reason is not helpful to spiritual growth. It's a false dilemma.

 

LOL. I agree with you. Just as faith doesn't need to be left at home, neither should reason. I think the line drawn between faith and reason by Christians AND by secular people is not helpful. To leave reason behind when studying math is as unhelpful as leaving faith behind when studying history. Both are necessary for a full education, in my opinion. Faith is not frightened by reason. It is strengthened. God created both.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Daisy

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

 

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

 

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

And I do believe there are plenty of solid Christian kids who come out of a public school education. I believe in a Sovereign God who is bigger than one particular educational choice.

 

As far as the actual documentary goes, Most of the time those movies don't change anyone's mind. They just make those who want to believe something feel better about their choices. It sounds interesting though.

 

And I'll add that I don't really feel public schools could do it any differently.

 

They HAVE to disconnect faith and reason because there are so many different faiths. Really there is no way around that with the current system. Some religious families are okay with that. A movie isn't going to change their mind.

 

This deficit though is exactly why our family feels public schools would be unable to fully educate our children. I was spending too much time trying to "after school" in faith. For our family it was easier to just do it all.

 

:iagree::iagree:Amen and amen to both posts. Thanks, Daisy, for explaining what I've been trying without success to formulate in my mind in order to communicate to others. Absolutely marvelous!

 

For anyone interested in understanding this viewpoint better - especially Christians - I high recommend the book Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey.

[Sophia]

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie.

I was at the SAICFF when Colin Gunn was being interviewed about his plans for this film, so it will be neat to see what he's done.

 

He has managed to bring together a variety of preachers from many different backgrounds. For instance, I've heard Erwin Lutzer preach many, many times when I lived in Chicago, but don't recall him ever preaching on education. I am very interested in hearing what he has to say.

 

Btw, Gary North is not producing the fim.

He's in it, just like Erwin Lutzer, and Franklin Graham and Charles Stanley, et al.

The website clearly shows who is producing it.

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm not sure it is produced by Gary North - I got the idea from the trailer that Colin Gunn produced it. Nevertheless, North is in it as are many other Christian Reconstructionists.

 

I agree with the premise that Christians should not have their children in public schools, but I do not agree with reconsctructionism. America is not and never has been a "Christian" nation - there is only one Christian nation and that is the New Jerusalem - heaven. In order to be Christian, the King has to be God and that is definitely not the case now and never has been for America. Yes, I realize Christianity influenced America greatly, but the term "Christian nation" goes beyond that and I think it is dangerous to think that America could ever be that. The body of Christ is all over the world, not just here in America.

 

I'd like to see the movie in order to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" but I think Christians have to be careful not to swallow this line of thinking hook, line and sinker. As Christians we are called to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and I think this necessarily means keeping them out of the pagan environment of ps - but we are not called to create a Christian government/nation. As adults, we are to be salt and light to this world while waiting for the return of Christ who will then set up His own kingdom. Dominionsim is an aberration of true Christianity and it is very important to realize this. There is a difference between Christians influencing society and culture for good and actually trying to set up a Biblical government in Washington, D.C.

 

I'd also like to address the issue of Christians indoctrinating their own children. The word indoctrination comes from the word doctrine which simply means "teaching." In the same way that I do not teach my children that there is a Santa Claus because that would be lying to them, I do teach my children the Bible because I believe that it is the truth. Yes, I suppose you could call that indoctrination. Someone is going to indoctrinate children one way or another. I prefer that mine be taught truth rather than a lie.

 

I can understand why that would be difficult for a non-Christian to understand and why they would see that as "indoctrination" in a negative sense. But if you really thought something was true, you wouldn't see it as a problem. For instance, if you believe the earth revolves around the sun, you wouldn't have a problem teaching that to your children and you'd have trouble with anyone who tried to teach your children otherwise. That's the way it is for Christians - we believe the Bible is absolute truth and have a lot of trouble with those who teach otherwise, either by directly refuting it or by ignoring it as the source of truth. It really would be nice if others were tolerant of that.

 

I always love your posts. :grouphug:

[Amirah]

i actually knew about this movie and i have seen the trailer before. i read alot of stuff about homemaking etc from vision forum and one of the blogs i read by voddie bauchman's( i may be spelling this wrong) daughter jasmine had the trailer i think. Anyways i am what most consider very a conservative muslim, and i could see where christians would want to be aware of stuff that is being taught against their religion. i have a 18 month old and i know i am already worried. thats the main reason why we will homeschool is so we can teach according to our religion(which is very much part of every aspect of our life).i think the best for families who are having really bad isssues with this would be to just homeschool unless you had no choice.

[PiCO]

My oldest goes to a public school. There's talk of god all over the place, even from her teachers. I've never seen examples of how public schools teach kids to be atheists? If anything, my kid has been pressured by her peers, and by one of her teachers, about her lack of faith.

 

This is why I started homeschooling. I felt the public schools in my area were too open to students and teachers proselytizing in school. When I had to send my kids back to school, I was glad to find a charter school where they take evolution seriously.

[Mama2Many4]

I myself have just started reading Underground History of American Education and wow! What an eye opener. We chose homeschooling for many things listed there. Some I didn't realize as well.

[Laura Corin]

Bingo. I don't want my children indoctrinated with any beliefs contrary to my own, just as any non-Christian wouldn't want the same done with their children.

 

 

If 'indoctrinate' means 'teach', then I'm quite happy for my children to be taught about religions and to choose one to follow if they wish. I'm at the atheist end of agnostic, but the boys go to a Christian school. If they wanted to choose a religion, that would be fine with me. My only reservations would come if they chose a religion which caused them to vilify those who did not agree with them.

 

Laura

[lionfamily1999]

FWIW- I am not reconstructionist, nor do I say pull all Christian kids out. I merely thought the movie looked interesting. I just think more Christian parents need to be more aware of what their kids are being taught and exposed to and they need to be more proactive in teaching about following Christ rather than reactionary when they find their child slipping away.

 

And when we began homeschooling it wasn't about our faith. It was completely academic and family centered. But as we get further into it I love that our faith is so real and vibrant in our home and that I get so much more time and opportunity to discuss aspects of our faith with my kids.

 

I guess that's my worry for Christian families that utilize public school- do they even have the time to devote to raising up the next generation in faith when kids are gone a minimum of 6 hours a day and if they are in extra curriculars or sports then they are gone even more and then homework.... I just dont' know. Some can do it and do a great job but I guess sadly that is not what I see with a good portion of our families at church.

 

I don't know who the majority of the people are in the video so I can't comment on what they believe in. But I like to watch controversial movies (whether for or against my faith) because it brings up good discussion, I can hold it against the Bible and decide if it is scriptural or not, and it helps me hone what I truly believe about God and this world.

:iagree: We did not start hsing for religious reasons either, but the longer we go the more our faith touches every aspect of our 'class.' Also, I think it's just plain harder for ps parents to devote the time to teach their children about their faith.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

EXACTLY!

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

Nail. Head. Again.

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

Daisy, you are so right!

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

And I do believe there are plenty of solid Christian kids who come out of a public school education. I believe in a Sovereign God who is bigger than one particular educational choice.

Yes, yes, yes.

As far as the actual documentary goes, Most of the time those movies don't change anyone's mind. They just make those who want to believe something feel better about their choices. It sounds interesting though.

I only slightly disagree with the last part. I think for fence riders, or people that already suspect this, it could be a turning point. I only say that, because of my personal experience with TWTM. I was not a hser, never wanted to be one, until I read Jessie Wise's opening, describing her situation with her son. It took all my little worries and validated them.

LOL. I agree with you. Just as faith doesn't need to be left at home, neither should reason. I think the line drawn between faith and reason by Christians AND by secular people is not helpful. To leave reason behind when studying math is as unhelpful as leaving faith behind when studying history. Both are necessary for a full education, in my opinion. Faith is not frightened by reason. It is strengthened. God created both.

:iagree:

i actually knew about this movie and i have seen the trailer before. i read alot of stuff about homemaking etc from vision forum and one of the blogs i read by voddie bauchman's( i may be spelling this wrong) daughter jasmine had the trailer i think. Anyways i am what most consider very a conservative muslim, and i could see where christians would want to be aware of stuff that is being taught against their religion. i have a 18 month old and i know i am already worried. thats the main reason why we will homeschool is so we can teach according to our religion(which is very much part of every aspect of our life).i think the best for families who are having really bad isssues with this would be to just homeschool unless you had no choice.

Thank you for bringing another perspective into the mix. I think, sometimes, it can be forgotten that Christians aren't the only ones worried about society's impact on their children's beliefs or see their belief in God as impacting every facet of their life.

[DawnM]

n/m

Edited January 16, 2011 by DawnM

[stephanier.1765]

And I'll add that I don't really feel public schools could do it any differently.

 

They HAVE to disconnect faith and reason because there are so many different faiths. Really there is no way around that with the current system. Some religious families are okay with that. A movie isn't going to change their mind.

 

 

:iagree: I also want to add that when I watched the trailer I thought it was a joke with its use of scare tactic video and music. Plus it is so far out of my mindset that anyone would actually feel that way.

[laughing lioness]

I myself have just started reading Underground History of American Education and wow! What an eye opener. We chose homeschooling for many things listed there. Some I didn't realize as well.

 

I agree that parents should be educated about the manner and method of educating their kids- from what I've observed it's a hugely important issue that consumes a lot of parents time and energy regardless of HOW they educate.

 

I have really appreciated Gatto's work and have passed around "Dumbing Us Down" to scores of parents. His is a great starting place to really understand the history of ed in America from the late 18th century till now.

I think parents need to know what government schools are about, why they were founded, what the purpose for them is. I firmly believe that if more people really understood government schools there would be far less surprise about test scores, outcomes and some of the social problems in schools today as well as more rigorous demand for the break up of the NEA monopoly and tax dollars going to alternative (and more educationally successful) options.

 

All of that being said, I think that the reactionary tone of this film is not helpful because it germinates a type of legalism and division within the church (i.e. those of us homeschooling are "enlightened" as well as "those who do not homeschool "correctly" are not enlightened) and does not engender love towards those outside of the faith.

Edited January 16, 2011 by laughing lioness

[Jackie in AR]

Watched the trailer and a lot of what I'm hearing is, besides old news, (do a quick study of the history of education in America starting with the Prussian system of ed in the late 1800's which will quickly sequeway to Mann and Dewey) fear mongering and reactionary. If Christians (homeschooling and otherwise) want to make a difference in the world (including and especially in their own homes) they need to be visionary, not reactionary. Kids are leaving the church in droves becasue it's not meaningful, and as much as I hate using this word, relevant. The message of the Living Christ has somehow not come alive to them. Perhaps because those of us in the church enact it formulatically rather than transformationally. Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders.

 

Whatever good that might be contained in this message (bring your kids home, the public school pedagogy is antithetical to a Christian worldview) is buried beneath, "The sky is falling."

 

And that is why I can't stand going to homeschool conferences....

 

Nicely stated, Lisa.

[cdrumm4448]

And when we began homeschooling it wasn't about our faith. It was completely academic and family centered. But as we get further into it I love that our faith is so real and vibrant in our home and that I get so much more time and opportunity to discuss aspects of our faith with my kids. .

 

:iagree:

[cdrumm4448]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

 

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

 

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

And I do believe there are plenty of solid Christian kids who come out of a public school education. I believe in a Sovereign God who is bigger than one particular educational choice.

 

As far as the actual documentary goes, Most of the time those movies don't change anyone's mind. They just make those who want to believe something feel better about their choices. It sounds interesting though.

 

Daisy, I love your posts!

[laundrycrisis]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

 

I understand this, BUT I do not think it is the job of the public schools to provide an education with a religious slant of any kind in order to satisfy the religious parents who feel this way. Parents who object to this "void" because it creates a "disconnect" in their personal, private, religious lives, should choose something besides public education for their children...or if they choose to use public education, they should do so while accepting the condition that the public school system is not obligated to cater to their personal and private religious ideas. Children can be taught their parents' personal and private religious ideas at home and in the family's place of worship. Parents can choose to home educate, or they can choose a private school that is aligned with their beliefs. Public school is not the place for the sort of teaching that incorporates "faith" into academics. That is not something people should be trying to change.

 

I am happy for people who are able to homeschool or choose private school when it is a better fit for their family's beliefs. If they are frustrated with the secular nature of public schools, and can choose another option, that is great. I have no argument with those who choose home or private education for religious reasons.

 

But, I do not like to see public schools criticized on websites, videos etc. for being too secular, or any attempts to make public schools more religious. There are so many other things to go after improving in public schools....:lol:....IMO being secular is the one thing they get right.

 

And I'll add that I don't really feel public schools could do it any differently.

 

 

This is what I wish the people behind this movie would understand. The trailer said the public education system is "Marxist" and that "the battle lines have been drawn". WTH ? The public schools are secular because that is the only way to be respectful of everyone....as in "do unto others", perhaps ? I also felt it implied that the schools are failing because they are not Christian. It also said in the trailer that the only sound foundation of an educational system is "the word of God". (Whose god ? Which one ? ) Obviously this movie supports a move only toward their own ideas of God. I remain baffled that people have difficulty understanding that public schools are not a place for personal, private religious beliefs to be taught, and so I don't understand why the secular nature of public schools stirs up so much anger and a "battle" mindset with some of the religious community.

Edited January 16, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[amey311]

I understand this, BUT I do not think it is the job of the public schools to provide an education with a religious slant of any kind in order to satisfy the religious parents who feel this way. Parents who object to this "void" because it creates a "disconnect" in their personal, private, religious lives, should choose something besides public education for their children...or if they choose to use public education, they should do so while accepting the condition that the public school system is not obligated to cater to their personal and private religious ideas.

 

I've been thinking on this a little more and I think some of this "get God back in the schools" talk pairs along with "things were so much better way back when." And I immediately thought of "Little House on the Prairie."

 

It's very easy to think of there being some measure of religion included in the curriculum in that school house. Nearly everyone in town went to the same building for church on Sundays (and if you didn't go, your neighbors knew you weren't there). There had to be some measure of getting along just because of the nature of life at that time, etc.

 

Now, though, with communities being diverse and schools pulling students from different neighborhoods, if you live in any decent sized community you'll have people from many different paths.

 

My high school was relatively small - my graduating class was 170. It was a centralized school, pulling from many different communities and the churches that were in the area included: baptist, united methodist, presbyterian, Catholic, Wesleyan, Congregational, Evangelical, Reformed, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, and several different non-denominational churches.

 

It's simply not the same as that idyllic one room schoolhouse/church.

[goldberry]

The reactions to this subject interest me, coming from my perspective as a Jehovah's Witness. I did not decide to HS for religious reasons.

 

Pretty much, all JWs start with the assumption that our religious views are not going to be supported or reinforced in a school environment. Even if the school was incorporating something "traditionally" Christian, it would likely not match what we are teaching our children. AND THAT'S OK.

 

We are prepared for that, and we prepare our children for that. We send our kids to school to get a secular education. We take it upon ourselves to know what is coming up in school, how it fits with our beliefs and discuss it with our children so we can help them process it. We don't assume that it is going to destroy their beliefs. We consider it "normal" in this society that they will be fed plenty of opposing views, and it is our job to present our side (our reasons for what we believe) convincingly.

 

I had an intersting debate with an athiest friend (and yes, I do have athiest friends! well at least one :-). When the man in California sued because the phrase "nation under God" was making his athiest child feel pressured, let's just say, I didn't get it. The first question I asked, "Was the child free to not participate in the pledge?" The next question I asked, "If the child is free not to participate, what's the problem?" JW kids have not been saying the pledge, and being pressured, made fun of, etc, FOR YEARS. JW's don't ask that the pledge be removed, but only that our kids are free not to participate. If there is a Christmas tree, we don't ask for the tree to be removed, but only that our kids are free not to decorate and substitute something else.

 

So, I guess, if some get upset that a Christmas tree IS being removed, or that their religion isn't being reinforced in a secular public school....well, to me that's just the reality of the world we live in, and the world our kids will live in.

 

I have never expected that the state school system will conform to my beliefs or that it should.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I understand this, BUT I do not think it is the job of the public schools to provide an education with a religious slant of any kind in order to satisfy the religious parents who feel this way.

 

I have no problem with schools not slanting TOWARD religious education, especially since beliefs, even among Christians, can be different. My problem is that public schools in our area actively teach AGAINST Christianity. When a teacher belittles the beliefs of any of their students, we've got a problem.

[Georgiana Daniels]

Oh, I should probably clarify--it's not the whole public school system in our area that teaches against Christianity. It came across wrong in my last post. However, while in high school, my daughter ran into more than one teacher who spoke against our beliefs. I didn't mean to generalize :)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Oh, I should probably clarify--it's not the whole public school system in our area that teaches against Christianity. It came across wrong in my last post. However, while in high school, my daughter ran into more than one teacher who spoke against our beliefs. I didn't mean to generalize :)

 

They sound like bad teachers who should be reported IMHO. IMHO it is not school policy or the schools themselves when this sort of behavior happens. I have had and heard of plenty of religious schools with some bad teachers as well.

[Kathleen in VA]

I have no problem with schools not slanting TOWARD religious education, especially since beliefs, even among Christians, can be different. My problem is that public schools in our area actively teach AGAINST Christianity. When a teacher belittles the beliefs of any of their students, we've got a problem.

 

Exactly - I have no expectation that a public school should gear their programs toward my particular religion at all, or, for that matter, even make an attempt to accommodate my religion on any level. I don't think anyone here is saying that. I have a huge problem with the anti-Christian sentiment that is prevalent in public schools, however. I experienced this in both high school and at the public university from which I got my degree. And it isn't just a few bad teachers who belittle students because of their beliefs. It is the content of the textbooks (evolution, for example) and the vigorous promotion of anti-God, anti-Bibilcal moral values throughout the entire curriclum as well.

 

I think Christians dropped the education ball a very long time ago and it surprises me that they are just now beginning to recognize that complusory, state-funded, government-controlled education is not and never has been a true Biblical option. From the very beginning of public schools in this country I think Christians should have seen a red flag flying furiously in front of them, but most people follow the path of least resistance and so until things get "really bad" they just do what they are told because it is easier than taking a stand. If Christian parents and grandparents and great-grandparents had been thinking about what it really means to send children off to someone else to have them educated they would have been very slow to do so decades ago. Now the schools have finally degenerated morally to such a degree that a lot of Christian parents have chosen to homeschool their children and this movie is trying to get the attention of those who haven't tuned in yet.

 

I do not think the movie (haven't seen it yet) is asking for anyone to "put God back in schools" or to even put "prayer back in schools." I think the point is to educate Christians who haven't noticed yet that the public school system is not the place for their children. Daisy said it well when she pointed out that the ps system really can't do what they do any other way. "They have to disconnect faith and reason because there are so many different faiths."

 

I think the problem the movie is trying to address is that many Christian parents haven't realized this. For Christians there is no such thing as a "secular" education. God's truth permeates mathematics, science, history, language arts - everything! It's not possible to extricate God from these topics and just label them "secular" as if God had nothing to do with any of them. He created them, He governs them, He revealed them to man. It is naive to think that a public school, which by its very nature must appeal to the masses, will be able to accommodate a Christian worldview.

 

Many Christians think that religion is something you do on Sunday or in your prayer closet and that "academic subjects" are unrelated to faith. They've been duped into thinking that it is possible to teach math, science, etc. without mentioning God because these subjects are in the realm of "academics" and not religion. But, as Daisy as already pointed out, this simply is not true. God is in all these things and true knowledge of them cannot be attained apart from Him.

 

I have no desire to see the ps system make an attempt at including all religions in their instruction or allow teachers/administrators/etc. to pray aloud during the school day or at school functions. The plain fact is that a school system designed to accommodate all children will necessarily be godless and for a Christian, that is not acceptable. It never has been acceptable - it's just that many folks are just now seeing that.

[Cindyz]

Really? Have you ever seen an atheist church, temple, or religious building? Where are their clergy? When are their meetings? What is the doctrine? Dogma? Ritual? Who do they worship? Prayer? Who do atheists pray to?

 

Being atheist in no way resembles any definition of a religion.

 

Yes I have. Many athiests attend Unitarian Universalist churches and they look EXACTLY like the classic type church you may imagine with one big difference: all beliefs are discussed and respected.

 

Here are the 7 principles:

 

 

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

• The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;

• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

Here are some podcasts allowing you to listen to some unitarian sermons presented by the clergy. :)

 

http://www.firstunitarianportland.org/sermons/sermons-a-podcasts

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yes I have. Many athiests attend Unitarian Universalist churches and they look EXACTLY like the classic type church you may imagine with one big difference: all beliefs are discussed and respected.

 

Here are the 7 principles:

 

 

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

• The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;

• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

Here are some podcasts allowing you to listen to some unitarian sermons presented by the clergy. :)

 

http://www.firstunitarianportland.org/sermons/sermons-a-podcasts

 

Many Christians and other religious believers also attend Unitarian Universalist churches as well:) I have myself;)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am confused about why some Christians see public schools as anti-Christian and anti-God for teaching evolution. Many Christians, myself included, believe in God and believe in evolution. Evolution does not posit that there is no God. I attended public schools for half of my schooling and I never heard anything in the curricula that was anti-God or anti-Biblical. I think it is great to impart your beliefs to your children but I do not understand this portrayal of public schools as anathema to one's religious beliefs. I see it as the schools maintaining neutrality since there is a plethora of religious beliefs out there:)

 

My beef with public schools is the lack of academic rigor in many cases. I would be very upset if a public school started imparting religious beliefs. I still believe in the availability of a strong public school system and school choice including vouchers and homeschooling to benefit our society.

[simka2]

Yes I have. Many athiests attend Unitarian Universalist churches and they look EXACTLY like the classic type church you may imagine with one big difference: all beliefs are discussed and respected.

 

Here are the 7 principles:

 

 

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

• The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;

• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Here are some podcasts allowing you to listen to some unitarian sermons presented by the clergy. :)

 

http://www.firstunitarianportland.org/sermons/sermons-a-podcasts

 

 

You could make the argument that Universalism is a religion, but just because an Athesist walked in the building doesn't make Atheism a religion.

[Meriwether]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

For the Christian who feels that our faith impacts every facet of our lives, trying to educate a child in a "void" creates a disconnect between faith and science, faith and English, faith and history. It says leave your faith neat and tidy over here in this corner, then use your brain for the rest of your life. Essentially THAT is a worldview that many Christians want to avoid. We don't believe it and we feel it creates major theological problems.

 

But that is the worldview being taught in public schools. It says that religion and faith play no part in education. "One is just belief and the other is reason."

 

Whereas our family believes true education begins when you recognize the truths of what God says about himself. Until then you are a blind man trying to figure out your universe without the use of all your senses.

 

I don't send my kids to public school because I don't want them only partially educated. I don't want them educated in a system that believes religion belongs in a neat tidy box kept for Sunday mornings.

 

And I do believe there are plenty of solid Christian kids who come out of a public school education. I believe in a Sovereign God who is bigger than one particular educational choice.

 

As far as the actual documentary goes, Most of the time those movies don't change anyone's mind. They just make those who want to believe something feel better about their choices. It sounds interesting though.

 

I loved this.

[laundrycrisis]

Unitarian Universalism and atheism are completely separate things. Some UUs are atheists. Some atheists are UUs. There are also many UUs who are not atheist and many atheists who are not UUs. Yes, some UUs consider UU to be their religious identity. But being a UU is not the same thing as being an atheist...you can be both, or either without the other....and it doesn't turn atheism into a religion.

[Cindyz]

You could make the argument that Universalism is a religion, but just because an Athesist walked in the building doesn't make Atheism a religion.

 

Very true. I saw a quote earlier today that said "Atheism is a religion like 'off' is a TV channel."

 

But it's not true that atheists don't attend a church or religious building with clergy, doctrines or ritual or even pray (think of it more like meditation or positive affirmations). Some do! I just wanted to point that out.