How old is the earth?

[Ginevra]

Also, one question I would love for one of the YECs to answer: If the universe is only 6,000 years old, how is it that we can see light from stars that are millions of light years away? If everything was that young, the sky would be quite dark.

 

What's interesting is that this is the question that made me disbelieve YE - and I was looking at YE resources, expecting to embrace YE. If I could get excited about this particular debate, this is part of what I'd harp on against YE. But...meh. I just don't care about this debate any more.

 

And I'll have a sangria. That's my drink of choice. :D

[mommaduck]

What's interesting is that this is the question that made me disbelieve YE - and I was looking at YE resources, expecting to embrace YE. If I could get excited about this particular debate, this is part of what I'd harp on against YE. But...meh. I just don't care about this debate any more.

 

And I'll have a sangria. That's my drink of choice. :D

Eh, I'm a YEC that has gotten to that point. I'll say this: I believe in micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution. I'm satisfied leaving the rest up to God and to each their own. My kids learn both arguments for old and young. They will have to face with the "old" view in life anyhow (and do regularly with watching so many science programs). I also know my kids may grow to believe totally differently than I do; I'm okay with that.

[mom31257]

I am a Creationist and am Young Earth. I will say that I have questions about time and how we measure it, the age of the whole Universe, etc. I can respect why anyone believes in an old Earth, I just wish I felt it was the same toward those of us who don't.

 

I don't think we can know the true age of the Earth without a shadow of a doubt. No one who is alive on this planet was there. It takes faith on both sides, faith to believe the Bible is true, or faith that the tests chosen are sufficient.

 

I tell the kids all the time that I believe in the Big Bang Theory. God spoke and...BANG...there you go. Sound does travel. Maybe that's why the Universe is expanding.:)

[Ginevra]

My kids learn both arguments for old and young. They will have to face with the "old" view in life anyhow (and do regularly with watching so many science programs). I also know my kids may grow to believe totally differently than I do; I'm okay with that.

 

Same here. And congrats on the 8th duckling! I'm so jealous.

[mommaduck]

Same here. And congrats on the 8th duckling! I'm so jealous.

Thanks :)

[mom31257]

Also, one question I would love for one of the YECs to answer: If the universe is only 6,000 years old, how is it that we can see light from stars that are millions of light years away? If everything was that young, the sky would be quite dark.

 

My dh researches this all a little more than me, so I spoke with him. If you believe God created it all to start with, it isn't much of a leap to believe He created that light extending from the star at the same time. The actual biblical account is that He created light before the stars were even created.

 

The true size of the universe is not really known. It's known that the speed of light is not consistent throughout the universe. It is also known that time acts in bizarre ways as you approach the speed of light. The known laws of physics don't even apply to the first moments following the Big Bang as the theory is now.

 

What we know of the galaxy is constantly changing. Check out these sites for some examples.

 

http://www.sdss.org/

 

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/

[Peela]

I have no idea how old the earth is.

 

Science may hypothesise, but it doesn't know either.

 

I figure it's older than we can really conceive.

[Mergath]

My dh researches this all a little more than me, so I spoke with him. If you believe God created it all to start with, it isn't much of a leap to believe He created that light extending from the star at the same time. The actual biblical account is that He created light before the stars were even created.

 

The true size of the universe is not really known. It's known that the speed of light is not consistent throughout the universe. It is also known that time acts in bizarre ways as you approach the speed of light. The known laws of physics don't even apply to the first moments following the Big Bang as the theory is now.

 

What we know of the galaxy is constantly changing. Check out these sites for some examples.

 

http://www.sdss.org/

 

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/

 

Actually, the speed of light is constant in a vacuum. Such as space. Even the motion of an observer has no effect of the speed of light. Unless it is going through something like water, the speed of light is always the same everywhere in the universe. Gravity can change the path of light, but it doesn't change the speed. And time might pass differently for someone going close to the speed of light, but it doesn't change the speed of light itself. If something is one light-year away, the light will get here in one year. Period.

 

And while scientists don't know the exact dimensions of the universe, they are able to say with a good deal of accuracy how far away different stars are.

[Aoife]

My boys just went through Mike Snavely's "Evolution or Creation" book, which teaches that the earth is about 6,000 years old. Today we were looking at Story of the World (Ancient Times) and it says that the nomads were around about 7,000 years ago. I find both authors reasonably trust-worthy, and I'm not very well-read on the subject to know what the right answer is. Anyone have input?

 

Science has proven it to be about 4.54 billion years old. Mathematics and science together has gotten to a point where they can say with relative certainty the age of things in our universe. :)

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

I believe it to be around 6000 years old.

I haven't read most of the other posts, so I am not arguing just listing facts why I believe it only to be 6000 years old. :tongue_smilie:

The fossils were created by the massive Flood that covered the Earth, along with the Grand Canyon and many other Geological Formations. This is the only explanation for finding Fossils of sea creatures on top of mountains. Fossils do not take millions of years to form, I have made them in my kitchen over a couple days. :001_smile:

I do not believe in Evolution because there is no "real" scientific proof. In the last 300 years of documented science, there is not one animal who has evolved. They have never tracked an animal and had actual proof that it changed its chemical makeup somehow.

The geneolgy in the Bible provides an awesome timeline for proof all the way back to Adam, and I believe one day in the Bible meant one day on Earth. I believe this because it says, And then there was morning and evening and it was one day. God does not need a million years to make something, all HE has to do is Speak and it Happens.

[Onceuponatime]

The one thing that convinced me about the age of the earth more than anything was the decoding of the human genome sequence. It is real science that is able to tell us something about all life on earth and how it is related.

[Mrs Mungo]

The fossils were created by the massive Flood that covered the Earth, along with the Grand Canyon and many other Geological Formations. This is the only explanation for finding Fossils of sea creatures on top of mountains.

 

No, it actually isn't the ONLY explanation, it is only ONE explanation. The other explanation is that the land was once flat or under the sea and through geological events (earthquakes, tectonic movement) over a period of time they wind up at the top of a mountain. That's the scientific view. You may believe it's due to the flood, but it's definitely not the ONLY explanation.

 

eta: link to NY Times story on this

 

Fossils do not take millions of years to form, I have made them in my kitchen over a couple days. :001_smile:

I guess that depends upon your definition of a fossil. We've made plaster imprints of objects over a couple of days. I haven't made fossils through the processes of carbonization or permineralization over a couple of days.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Fossils do not take millions of years to form, I have made them in my kitchen over a couple days. :001_smile:

 

....wait what? you made fossils in your kitchen? :001_huh:

[Allearia]

not enough alcohol in my house to get into this today. I find it fascinating how many intelligent people there are on each side of the debate. Does anyone ever change their mind after a discussion such as this? A lot of the time I find it interesting, but today it just makes me tired how far people can be away from each other over this point.

[mytwomonkeys]

well, i have an opinion about this, but it's not something that gets me heated or upset. there's nothing in this thread that i haven't heard or read a billion times before.

 

i especially like apologetics and/or evolution vs. creation debates, but not in a setting like a homeschool forum, where tempers flair and opinions fly (although this particular thread has been very kind!). i prefer actual debates, where specific topics are addressed and there are rules of conduct in place. those are awesome!

[Cricket]

The 6000 years old thing is new to me. I heard someone say that in our adult Sunday School class last Sunday. I thought the YE view was more like 10,000 to 12,000 years old (not that it makes much difference to OE people!). It's been awhile since I've read any books about the topic though.

 

As far as using genealogies listed in the Bible, it was not uncommon for such lists to exclude people. "Begat" didn't necessarily mean father/son. It could mean great-grandfather/great-grandson so we don't really know if any or how many generations were skipped.

 

We've been teaching Creation with a YE slant. It's about time to start getting in to this with much more detail and I am so not prepared. :tongue_smilie: Time to do more study.

[MamaSheep]

Of course if you look at dirt under a microscope, you'll see it's mostly made up of decaying organic matter, so which dirt are we talking about? Sand or loam or something in between?

 

Yes. Either way. Organic matter is also made up of atoms that (as far as science knows) can only form in the heart of massive stars because that's the only place we know of where the right conditions can exist to form the atomic bonds that hold the atomic bits together so we can have elements heavier that hydrogen and helium. So anything that's made of any of the heavier elements, such as carbon, existed as space dust that was the remains of a stellar explosion a long, long time ago. It floated around in space for a while, mixing with other space debris, until there was enough of it to have sufficient gravity to collapse it in on itself with sufficient force to start up new atomic fusion reactions (creating new heavy atoms). Those reactions generate huge amounts of energy and if the mass of the thing is in the right range, the explosive force of the fusion reaction is balanced by the inward force of the gravity and you wind up with a stable ball of fire called a main sequence star, which will burn for billions of years--in this case, our sun. The debris that was too far away to get pulled all the way into the reaction, but not far enough away to escape the gravity of the star altogether, swirled around the star, coalescing into planets, asteroids, etc. But any part of any of that that has atoms heavier than hydrogen or helium (according to current scientific consensus) was formed inside a star in those fusion reactions. The right conditions to form them don't exist on Earth. They can be recombined with other atoms in many different ways, but nuclear fusion just doesn't take place in nature on Earth. So all that organic material was also originally generated (scientifically speaking) inside a star, billions of years ago.

 

ETA: I just realized that in my earlier post I said molecules when I was actually thinking of atoms. Sorry, my bad.

Edited October 23, 2010 by MamaSheep

[bairnmama]

I never understand this answer, and I get it all the time from Christians when we get into a debate about the age of the Earth. There's overwhelming evidence supporting an Earth that is billions of years old. So assuming the Earth is actually only 6,000 years old, why on Earth would God create false evidence to trick people into thinking it's older? I've met a lot of people who think this.

 

Also, one question I would love for one of the YECs to answer: If the universe is only 6,000 years old, how is it that we can see light from stars that are millions of light years away? If everything was that young, the sky would be quite dark.

 

 

I stopped reading the posts at this one, so if someone has already answered you I apologize. There are answers already available that answer your question about distant starlight and a young earth. I would trip all over my words if I tried to explain what I've read, so here are a few from actual scientists (some are quite technical with detailed mathematical equations):

 

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter5.pdf

 

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j15_1/j15_1_80-85.pdf

 

http://creation.com/starlight-and-time-a-further-breakthrough

 

http://creation.com/new-time-dilation-helps-creation-cosmology

 

And as far as the "no reputable scientist believes in a young earth" comment, there's this article:

 

http://creation.com/do-creationists-publish-in-notable-refereed-journals

[Parrothead]

Fossils do not take millions of years to form, I have made them in my kitchen over a couple days. :001_smile:

I would really love to know how you did that. I bought some fossils from Home Science Tools and made the mistake of letting dd play with them. Now that we need them for science she can't find them.

[Nakia]

I'm at work and just wanted to subscribe to this thread so I can watch what happens. :D

 

And to answer the op's question: I don't know for sure, and I don't really care. I believe that God created it. And that's all that matters to me.

[Hannah]

So...yeah...lots of ways of looking at it, even from a Christian perspective, and no absolute, irrefutable way of giving a definative answer.

 

Just wanted to thank you for providing a very good summary Amy!!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Billions of years old. No reputable scientist believes otherwise.

 

:iagree: I think the age of the earth and the universe makes God's creation even more magnificent:) I also believe in evolution and see nothing in evolution that precludes my belief in God creating everything:)

[justamouse]

Eh, I was very slow letting it out this time. Yes, number eight and thank you :)

 

This is what I came back to see-*awww* congrats! :grouphug::grouphug:

 

The one thing that convinced me about the age of the earth more than anything was the decoding of the human genome sequence. It is real science that is able to tell us something about all life on earth and how it is related.

 

and an excellent book @ that is THE LANGUAGE OF GOD by Dr. Francis Collins, head of The Human Genome Project and a wonderful Christian

:iagree: I think the age of the earth and the universe makes God's creation even more magnificent:) I also believe in evolution and see nothing in evolution that precludes my belief in God creating everything:)

 

This is exactly what I believe.

[simka2]

This thread has been wonderful!!! I read it all after watching a very emotional movie and the comic relife was a balm :D!

 

 

I am in the "old" earth camp! and I really liked this article http://peterennsonline.com/book-reviews/review-of-the-bible-rocks-and-time-geological-evidence-for-the-age-of-the-earth/

 

I was looking for a different one I couldn't find, but this will do!

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, the world is thought to be very old. Here is the USGS current thinking on this topic:

 

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

 

This does not mean that future scientific findings won't change this viewpoint in part or in its entirety, but current scientific tools point to a very old earth.

[jplain]

If the universe is only 6,000 years old, how is it that we can see light from stars that are millions of light years away? If everything was that young, the sky would be quite dark.

My dh researches this all a little more than me, so I spoke with him. If you believe God created it all to start with, it isn't much of a leap to believe He created that light extending from the star at the same time.

And my own DH's response is this:

 

If God went to the trouble of creating that light, he must want us to believe the universe is billions of year old. Who are we to argue? ;)

[asta]

What I always find curious is that god seemingly only exists in the bible and in genesis.

 

Christianity doesn't own the concept of a creation story. Or a flood. Or time.

 

People really need to broaden their horizons and read some other versions of the origins of the world, IMO.

 

 

 

-- Oh, and the whole thing of humans putting a human construct/human constraints on a god (time, function, etc.) blows my mind, too. But that is another conversation altogether.

Edited October 23, 2010 by asta

[unsinkable]

I vote over 20 pages. ;)

 

I am reading this in order so maybe it has been addressed but there are different number of posts per page...so it varies.

[Perry]

I am reading this in order so maybe it has been addressed but there are different number of posts per page...so it varies.

Yep.

20 pages would be 1000 posts for me. The record is 828 posts.

[Garga]

I am reading this in order so maybe it has been addressed but there are different number of posts per page...so it varies.

 

Really? If I'm not signed in, there are 10 posts per page. Once I sign in there are 50 posts per page. Did I set it up that way 2 years ago when I first logged in? I don't remember. I thought we all saw 10 or 50 posts depending on whether we'd signed in or not.

 

 

I'm on the fence w/ YE or OE. You can grab a rock from the eruption of Mt. St. Helens and date it and it will show up as being millions of years old, when we all know it was formed during the eruption in 1980. So what's up with that?

 

And they've found fossilized wood in the buildings of old mining towns in the deserts in our American west. So, how did the wood from a building built in the 1800's date as if it were a fossil from a million years ago? What do we do with that?

 

Each side has examples like the above that the other side can't explain satisfactorily. So, we all just keep looking for more evidence to try to figure out which way is true.

[unsinkable]

Really? If I'm not signed in, there are 10 posts per page. Once I sign in there are 50 posts per page. Did I set it up that way 2 years ago when I first logged in? I don't remember. I thought we all saw 10 or 50 posts depending on whether we'd signed in or not.

 

 

I'm on the fence w/ YE or OE. You can grab a rock from the eruption of Mt. St. Helens and date it and it will show up as being millions of years old, when we all know it was formed during the eruption in 1980. So what's up with that?

 

And they've found fossilized wood in the buildings of old mining towns in the deserts in our American west. So, how did the wood from a building built in the 1800's date as if it were a fossil from a million years ago? What do we do with that?

 

Each side has examples like the above that the other side can't explain satisfactorily. So, we all just keep looking for more evidence to try to figure out which way is true.

 

I have mine set at 30 posts per page. It is under edit options.

 

It is interesting to me that it kind of parallels the idea of what is a Biblical day. KWIM?

[Gwenhwyfar]

mrsjamiesouth ~ i really am curious about the fossil making in the kitchen.. beliefs aside (and i have no dog in this show) i'm wondering what the activity was & how you did it because it could be something fun! :)

[myfatherslily]

Does anyone ever change their mind after a discussion such as this?

 

I actually do read these types of long threads with great interest.

 

In fact, I'm even thinking about letting my kids go trick or treating this year... even though I still think it's a dumb holiday:lol:

 

I have nothing new to add to the conversation at hand. I always stood firmly at 6,000 years. Then I heard that there were a few "crazy Christians" that actually believed evolution and was taught that they were picking and choosing what parts of the Bible they wanted to believe. BUT threads such as these help me to step outside of what is comfortable and familiar and to stop criticizing long enough to consider other viewpoints. I saved the links, books recommendations, and interesting comments to look over some other time.

[Elizabeth in WA]

In fact, I'm even thinking about letting my kids go trick or treating this year... even though I still think it's a dumb holiday:lol:

 

 

:lol: I thought I had gotten out of taking my daughter to our apartment complex Halloween party last night ... until my son called to say practice was ending early for her to prep the gym for the meet today. She had a great time catching the last half of the party last night, but I would rather have spent the time scrubbing bathrooms. :tongue_smilie: But the kids love it, and I have no real objections. I'm just glad oldest wants to stay home an hand out candy on the actual day and next oldest will go along and make sure youngers stay with large kid group and get in no trouble trick-or-treating themselves.

[DarlaS]

Yes. Either way. Organic matter is also made up of atoms that (as far as science knows) can only form in the heart of massive stars because that's the only place we know of where the right conditions can exist to form the atomic bonds that hold the atomic bits together so we can have elements heavier that hydrogen and helium.

 

 

I guess technically I am as old as dirt (but so is everyone else :D)!

[MamaSheep]

I guess technically I am as old as dirt (but so is everyone else :D)!

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I think I'm feeling my age tonight...all the way back to dirt.

[J-rap]

No one knows for sure. Does it matter?

[justamouse]

come on, people, help me break out the Jack Daniels!

 

 

Asta, I was reading the Tao of Pooh the other night and came across a Taoist principal of as above, so below (which is wiccan, too, I believe?) and on earth as it is in heaven. Yup. Three different religions, one same principal.

[teraberry]

Thanks to everyone who had some honest input. (I could do without all the posts about drinking and halloween, but anyway...)

 

The hard thing for me is that there are many people out there who are way smarter than I am who have opposing views on things like this. As I read through the posts I realized that basically, there is just a lot that I don't know and it does spark my interest. The discussion about starlight and time got me wondering. I also think, like one poster said, that this sort of question is probably much better in a formal debate forum where there are rules to the dialogue. I'd love to hear people dedicated to this field debate on the topic of the earth's age.

 

In retrospect, probably a better question for me to ask would be... why does Story of the World date the nomads at 7,000 years ago. Quite honestly, I would've expected the author to be one of those who thought the world was about 6,000 years old.

 

History books are not written in such a way as to always explain how they date things (on either side of the debate), and so I wonder how Susan Wise Bauer dates the nomads at 7,000 years ago.

[mommaduck]

Thanks to everyone who had some honest input. (I could do without all the posts about drinking and halloween, but anyway...)

 

The hard thing for me is that there are many people out there who are way smarter than I am who have opposing views on things like this. As I read through the posts I realized that basically, there is just a lot that I don't know and it does spark my interest. The discussion about starlight and time got me wondering. I also think, like one poster said, that this sort of question is probably much better in a formal debate forum where there are rules to the dialogue. I'd love to hear people dedicated to this field debate on the topic of the earth's age.

 

In retrospect, probably a better question for me to ask would be... why does Story of the World date the nomads at 7,000 years ago. Quite honestly, I would've expected the author to be one of those who thought the world was about 6,000 years old.

 

History books are not written in such a way as to always explain how they date things (on either side of the debate), and so I wonder how Susan Wise Bauer dates the nomads at 7,000 years ago.

There is always the "abt". Most YEC's are not "exactly 6000yrs", but rather "between 6000 and 10,000". Even genealogists are aware that at some point we start approximating.

[Parrothead]

Thanks to everyone who had some honest input. (I could do without all the posts about drinking and halloween, but anyway...)

 

 

Well, you have to understand where all that is coming from. For the longest time threads like this one would have been closed or deleted because the discussion would get out of hand. Quite a few of us are passionate about our POV and will argue for days with anyone who disagrees. So the posts about the alcohol and Halloween are simply us showing growth. We won't be sucked into the fight any more. Instead now, on many topics we will simply have a party. It also stems from the fact that this topic has been covered before.

[mommaduck]

Well, you have to understand where all that is coming from. For the longest time threads like this one would have been closed or deleted because the discussion would get out of hand. Quite a few of us are passionate about our POV and will argue for days with anyone who disagrees. So the posts about the alcohol and Halloween are simply us showing growth. We won't be sucked into the fight any more. Instead now, on many topics we will simply have a party. It also stems from the fact that this topic has been covered before.

:iagree: Topics like this rotate on this board and others. It's usually on the list with the following: Creation/Evolution, Christmas, Halloween, What Faith Are You Polls, Swimsuits and other Modesty issued threads, Dating/Courting, etc....

 

BTW, the drinking is generally a joke, but there are a lot of very conservative people that are fine with having a glass but are against being drunk...some don't even do Halloween (though I'm sure that was brought up as a joke on the fact that it's that time of year and it's in the rotation of debate threads).

[KidsHappen]

The record is 828 posts.

 

Do you happen to know what thread is was? :bigear:

[Snickerdoodle]

You all will bicker about anything, won't you?

 

:D

 

Mommy needs a beer.

:cheers2:

[Perry]

Do you happen to know what thread is was? :bigear:

If you go to the General Board page, you can click on the column with the heading "Replies". The first 8 threads are stickies and don't count, so look down the page a little bit. The thread started by Stephanie was longer, but since it was deleted we can't tell how many replies it had. Next largest is

Active member roll call....just say "Here!" :0) with 828, then McCain picked Sarah Palen, Governor of Alaska, as VP with 724, and so on.

[kalanamak]

If you go to the General Board page, you can click on the column with the heading "Replies". The first 8 threads are stickies and don't count, so look down the page a little bit. The thread started by Stephanie was longer, but since it was deleted we can't tell how many replies it had. Next largest is

Active member roll call....just say "Here!" :0) with 828, then McCain picked Sarah Palen, Governor of Alaska, as VP with 724, and so on.

 

Go to K8 and search for

file box

 

and it is over 800. Interesting, too.

[scrappyhappymama]

Thanks to everyone who had some honest input. (I could do without all the posts about drinking and halloween, but anyway...)

 

The hard thing for me is that there are many people out there who are way smarter than I am who have opposing views on things like this. As I read through the posts I realized that basically, there is just a lot that I don't know and it does spark my interest. The discussion about starlight and time got me wondering. I also think, like one poster said, that this sort of question is probably much better in a formal debate forum where there are rules to the dialogue. I'd love to hear people dedicated to this field debate on the topic of the earth's age.

 

In retrospect, probably a better question for me to ask would be... why does Story of the World date the nomads at 7,000 years ago. Quite honestly, I would've expected the author to be one of those who thought the world was about 6,000 years old.

 

History books are not written in such a way as to always explain how they date things (on either side of the debate), and so I wonder how Susan Wise Bauer dates the nomads at 7,000 years ago.

 

Yeah, honestly I think this is a pretty gracious answer to many of the responses to this thread. I know folks were having fun, but I found it a bit rude. The OP was obviously asking for input on the timing of various YE creationist points of view.

 

It's as if someone started a post asking, "I've seen sources that support the earth being 450 million years old and others that lean more toward 4.5 million years. What do you think is more credible?" And then a bunch of creationists post "Duh. 6000 years!" or "Don't you know that all Christians of good repute support young Earth Creationism." Then someone responds that they are a Christian *and* an old earth creationist, and then the response is "Yeah, I said Christian of *good* repute!" And then there are 40 posts discussing communion wine. :001_huh:

[jld]

 

It's as if someone started a post asking, "I've seen sources that support the earth being 450 million years old and others that lean more toward 4.5 million years. What do you think is more credible?" And then a bunch of creationists post "Duh. 6000 years!" or "Don't you know that all Christians of good repute support young Earth Creationism." Then someone responds that they are a Christian *and* an old earth creationist, and then the response is "Yeah, I said Christian of *good* repute!" And then there are 40 posts discussing communion wine. :001_huh:

 

:lol:

[SweetMissMagnolia]

my 7 yr old asks this all the time...............I just say "millions" LOL....

[justamouse]

Yeah, honestly I think this is a pretty gracious answer to many of the responses to this thread. I know folks were having fun, but I found it a bit rude. The OP was obviously asking for input on the timing of various YE creationist points of view.

 

It's as if someone started a post asking, "I've seen sources that support the earth being 450 million years old and others that lean more toward 4.5 million years. What do you think is more credible?" And then a bunch of creationists post "Duh. 6000 years!" or "Don't you know that all Christians of good repute support young Earth Creationism." Then someone responds that they are a Christian *and* an old earth creationist, and then the response is "Yeah, I said Christian of *good* repute!" And then there are 40 posts discussing communion wine. :001_huh:

 

You know, you think you're being sarcastic with that answer, and the sad part is, that's what those threads looked like.

 

Which is why we were drinking during this one. ;)