A classical education is timeless- not old fashioned... right?

[creekmom]

Life would be so much easier if my sister hsed her kids (and used the classical approach). Not only do her kids attend ps, but she is currently getting her degree in education. Soooooo, although she has never said it outright, she believes the classical approach is... dated. She's always telling me about all the new technology in the ps (her kids' elementary classrooms have smart boards now- whatever that is). Her son does powerpoint presentations and creates web pages, etc. She laughs at copywork and dictation. She practically gasped when she found out they didn't have journals. Diagramming?! No one does diagramming anymore, etc. Latin?! are you serious? (her kids' ps is teaching Chinese this year!) Phonics!!!??? You can't teach reading with just phonics!

 

I believe in a classical education. Really, I do. But, I can't help questioning whether or not it's a good idea to put all my eggs in the classical basket. Please remind me that a classical education is a solid one and that he won't have a dated education when he gets to college!

Edited September 25, 2010 by creekmom

[keptwoman]

Yes, I believe it's timeless. Educational theory is always being overtaken by the next best thing.

Powerpoint: Well my kids do powerpoint presentations sometimes on their history, and really, big deal. It's just not a hard program to learn, it's certainly not something worth worrying about missing.

Webpages: again, big deal, it's the kind of thing you can pick up anytime you feel like it. Technology changes so fast that what children learn at school will soon be obsolete, and maybe one day one of your kids will want to build a web page to showcase something they are doing, but it's not something to angst over not having.

 

Copywork and dictation are still used in France, they are not outdated and they are EFFECTIVE, who cares if the latest educational trend does not agree with them. Do we want to educate our kids or use them as educational theory guinea pigs?? Any kid who has been brought up on copywork and dictation will be able to write well, the school model of expecting creativity before kids are ready makes writing a chore and turns many children off writing in a way that is hard to overcome.

 

You CAN teach reading with just phonics as many members here will attest to. However, I firmly believe that for many children you can't just teach reading using whole word, it's a recipie for disaster for many children. And yet the powers that be continue to use it in our schools. That alone is evidence enough to me that the way schools do it is not the be-all and end-all and is sometimes just plain bad.

 

It is a solid education that will teach your kids to think, reason, enquire and argue. What more could you want?

Edited September 25, 2010 by keptwoman

[Karen in CO]

I like to compare the results. Who do you know who is a result of a classical education? Or can you list some founding fathers? They will be on that classical ed list.

 

Now, please tell me some success stories from the modern education - especially the latest and newest things? I'm pretty skeptical about modern education - it seems more like they are using our kids as social experiments.

 

My sil drives me batty. She went to the same classical private school that I attended so I know what kind of education she had. She is working on her doctorate thesis in education. Last summer she had an epiphany that our education was wasted because we weren't taught creative writing. She has published many professional journal articles and is working on her thesis but suddenly decided that her education was lacking because she wasn't taught creative writing? Seriously. She didn't see the irony in her discovery.

 

Anyway. My poor dd9 has already discovered that her education separates her from her would-be peers. They don't have a lot to talk about because their experiences are getting further and further part. She doesn't want to start watching more tv and reading lower-level books just to have something to talk about with 9 yo girls.

[OlgaLA]

Powerpoint presentations and website are only good if you have something to say, right?

 

You are teaching them to think and to learn. With these skills they will have no problems with picking up whatever latest fad they need. On the other hand, learning technology that will be obsolete tomorrow will not get them very far.

[creekmom]

:001_smile: These are great responses!! I knew I could count on you all to reassure me! Thank you!!

[iona]

from what i understand classical ed focuses more on the formation of the mind, not just on information. your are developing them in ways that will serve them their whole lives. It is easy to only think in terms of what is useful or will get the quickest results (ie not slogging through latin but focusing on typing/computer skills).

btw, I too share your anxiety and have to remind myself of these things as well.

[Alphabetika]

You may want to read this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/High-Tech-Heretic-Reflections-Contrarian/dp/0385489757/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285389281&sr=8-1

 

It's not about classical education, but it's a refreshingly wry look at computers in educational settings. It may reassure you and possibly give you ammo, even if only mental ammo, to fight your current battle:tongue_smilie:.

[Mallory]

I think it is much more likely that Power Point will be obsolete when our children are in the workforce than being able speak, read, and write well will be out of date....

 

I am sure whatever new technological "thing" is needed to be sucessful in the work place, my children will be able to figure it out.

[Haiku]

My 16 year old's high school has smart boards, and they do lots of power points. My opinion is, "whoop-dee doo." I don't see anything amazing happening because of it. If the kids can't write a coherent paper, all the power point presentations in the world mean nothing. Smart boards are, in my opinion, money-wasting ooh-ahh blackboards.

 

I have accepted the fact that my kids may sometimes appear to be "behind" schooled kids because of their lack of familiarity with whizz-bang technology or "ability" to write five paragraph essays in third grade, but I believe that, in the end, my careful focus on the basics will lead to my kids being able to learn and grasp higher-level material more readily.

 

Education is not a race.

 

Tara

[IsabelC]

I agree with everything mentioned by the others.

 

Education is (like all processes with indefinite outputs) subject to fads. IT is popular at the moment, but when you think about it, Powerpoint and the like are nothing more than tools. If you know how to be curious, how to research and discover things, how to formulate your ideas and express them well, it's easy to learn a new way to present all that, whether with a computer program or another medium. But if, on the other hand, too much emphasis is placed on form rather than content, it would be harder to make good that deficit later on. (Btw, I recently taught myself to make a Powerpoint presentation. It only took me one evening. It's no biggie!)

 

Plus, schools want to look modern and impressive with the least amount of cost and effort. It's probably easier to let the kids muck around on computers than to provide a really solid education.

[Hannah]

Any course of study in modern times can only represent a small subset of all the knowledge that is available at a particular time, and that is appropriate, for children to learn at school.

 

I believe that a classical (or neo-classical) curriculum will teach my children the foundational skills and basic knowledge that they need to be lifelong learners who will be able to apply these skills to any intellectual task as adults.

 

As no-one in modern times can possibly learn everything there is to know, we have to choose what we want our children to learn in the limited time we have available for their education. I'd like to use that time as effectively as I possibly can.

 

This means that I'd like my children to have been exposed to great literature. To have a good overview of the events that mark the passing of time and our history. To have covered the principles in the various branches of science (and math) to help them understand the world we live in and to decipher complex technological principles. To have learned a second languge for a broader world view. To have learned the logical thinking that come from doing Latin grammar and diagramming sentences. To appreciate arts that enrich their lifes. And to have solid writing and communication skills, as they will have something to write about!

 

Of course we will also add a whole lot of character training and learn life skills as well. Creating powerpoint presentations, web pages and writing in journals may be some of the add-ons that we'd include for a specific purpose, but learning the fundamentals will mean that if we happen to skip the technology now, they will have the skills to learn what they need to later.

 

So, yes, a classical education is a solid one and your son will have a solid education when he gets to college!

[Capt_Uhura]

THe school my friend's kids would attend sounds very much like what your sister describes. It was heavy on technology, no phonics, no spelling after all that is what computers are for, etc. Her DD got further and further behind academically. She had NO love of reading. Her reading level would regress during the school year but jump levels in the summer, only to regress again when school started. I know there are schools out there using technology wisely and producing academically-able kids, but many aren't. Don't be seduced by technology. And try to ignore your sister. Next summer, have a Technology summer camp for a few weeks, and your kids will know everything about it that the PS kids know.

[angela in ohio]

It is timeless (depending on how you do it, of course.)

 

Teaching a child to learn anything is much more timeless than teaching them the information that educators think they currently need. With classical education, you create the ability to change with the needs of the times.

 

You can search for numerous threads on this topic of technology, too.

 

Let me give one example of my theory (that our students, given logic and learning skills, will quickly surpass students who spend great quantities of time making PP.) I am taking a programming class for my Secondary Ed Math/Physics degree. The other students know more about how to use a Mac than me. One of them had to help me open a new file, the one beside me the other day was talking about rebuilding a friends computer, etc. But when it comes time to program, they are LOST, and they are asking me (the old lady :D) for help constantly! So they are very qualified to work at Best Buy, as they know all about the latest graphics cards and such, but when it comes to programming, where the big future potential is, they will not excel because they don't have the logic or critical thinking skills (or the math) necessary.

 

I can teach anyone PP in about an hour. They don't need to spend an entire school career practicing. Teachers know that, but PP sound impressive to parents, and it covers up bad handwriting and poor spelling skills. Some companies are now backing off of PP, anyway, so all these super-PP-trained kiddos might not find it so useful anyway. I learned to program in Basic in high school, and it's not much use to me today. :001_smile: Luckily, it was an elective, and it didn't interfere with my regular school work.

 

We spend a lot of time with other homeschoolers who think classical education is a waste, family members in education who think we are nuts, etc. My answer is to just smile sweetly and say, "We'll see." My parents were raising us strictly and intellectually while my aunt was raising my two cousins with few rules and material excess, and my mom just waited out the awful things my aunt said about how my mom was ruining us. Now we are happily married with cute kiddos, and my cousins are in and out of rehab, living in her basement half the time. That's an extreme case (and I'm not saying non-classical education leads to rehab :D,) but it taught me to just let the results speak for themselves.

[stripe]

It's unlikely that the exact technology being used today will still be around in 15-45 years. This should be obvious to those always talking about the fast changes and so on. Knowing how to think is not going out of style. It would be more useful to learn how to program than to get overly familiar with a presentation software that's designed specifically TO BE easy for anyone to use.

 

One doesn't need to have an obvious "use" for what they're learning. I find this annoying, frankly. I studied a language I won't even name in high school; I chose it out of personal interest. At the time, everyone told me it was a waste of time. Everyone told me I should learn another language, that was more commonly in use. I learned the language just for fun. I studied it again in college and enjoyed myself. At that time, it had become trendy, and I was never asked to justify learning it. I no longer particularly remember much of that language, but I found it fun and enjoyed learning about the culture, and it has helped me in other ways.

[SBP]

I think Dorothy Sayers said it best:

 

To have learnt and remembered the art of learning makes the approach to every subject an open door.

 

Every subject. Including Power Point ;).

 

SBP

[Hedgehogs4]

IMO, a classical education has two key outcomes that are highly desirable:

 

1. It develops in an individual an ability to think about anything, or learn about anything (agree with pp who said, "even powerpoint).

 

2. It causes one to think about and learn from the greatest people in history, as well as the greatest screw-ups, and maybe, just maybe there is the chance that we can keep history from repeating itself by learning these things.

 

alas, the government schools do not feel that the study of the ancients is valuable. have they really taken a critical look at the fall of the roman empire lately? considered Hammurabi and his understanding of justice? considered that the in the middle ages the Islamic invasion nearly changed the entire culture of Europe as we know it? considered that learning not just THAT things are classified, but HOW to classify creatures might inspire the ability to create classifications for many things in life, as needed. considered that by learning latin and greek one can learn any european language in a snap? i could go on, but my point is made, i think. the deeper we go into this classical approach, the more i love it. i love who my children are becoming because of it.

[elegantlion]

I used to work for a veterinarian who was classically educated at the Boston Latin School. He became a fighter pilot in the Navy and after retirement went to vet school and built his own practice. He was the most interesting person I've every worked for.

 

I believe classical education is timeless. I've been out of school for 25 years and I remember our high school offered the first computer class EVER. I didn't take it thinking I would never use a computer. Guess what it didn't matter, the class was dated in the next few years.

 

I do believe children should learn how to use technology, yet that doesn't have to happen completely in a classroom. We're a very techy type family. My ds has a laptop, smart phone, and Xbox. Dh showed him a few things on the computer and beyond that he's taught himself. However, this is the first year we've started using this technology in school.

 

Classical education teaches critical thinking skills. Latin is teaching my son not only vocabulary but how to break down a process. When we dissect a Latin word he's learning to take a concept and pull it apart to see its meaning. I think part of the issue with adults today is that many of them have never been taught how to take a process, break it down into pieces and finish! It could be something as simple as figuring out how to do laundry, or having the stamina and patience to buy a house.

 

Logic can do some of the same things. People wonder why you want to teach a child to argue. Have they ever talked to a tween? My son was born negotiating everything. Logic/Rhetoric is not optional for him, it's essential.

 

I don't ever want to simply teach subjects, I want to teach skills. Skills can transfer to anything and that will make him better able to reach his potential in life.

[Harriet Vane]

Many of those bells and whistles offered by the schools are just expensive toys that complicate the process of learning.

 

Case in point: My kids have had two internet Spanish tutors. Our first one had an elaborate chalkboard software program for use during class. You could do all kinds of amazing things with this program. All it did was slow class down to a crawl and distract from language learning and make proper use of the software the focus. I found it frustrating. By contrast, my kids currently have an internet tutor based in Guatemala. They talk to her via skype, and keep a chat box open while they talk. Sometimes the tutor or one of the kids will type something that needs clarification, but otherwise they just speak in Spanish. The hour they have together is way, way, way more focused, and their Spanish has progressed much, much more quickly with the simpler approach.

 

I also think of our time in Guatemala nearly a year ago, where we met our Guatemalan tutors. We spent our mornings at the language school while we were there. The tutors had a small table with a whiteboard. That's it. The quality of instruction was superb, and my family made huge leaps in their Spanish.

 

Simple systems allow the focus to be on the acquisition of knowledge. Complicated systems diffuse learning by distracting a person's energy to maintaining the system.

[bbrandonsmom]

I think you can combine technology into it. And like another pp mentioned-what is now, will be changed in 10yrs anyhow. It's changed in the last 5 yrs!

[OregonNative]

This is an incredible thread!! I am so glad you posted with your concerns. It really confirms for me why I am choosing to teach my children with the Classical method. Thank you ladies for your wonderful responses:grouphug:

[OregonNative]

Yes, I believe it's timeless. Educational theory is always being overtaken by the next best thing.

Powerpoint: Well my kids do powerpoint presentations sometimes on their history, and really, big deal. It's just not a hard program to learn, it's certainly not something worth worrying about missing.

Webpages: again, big deal, it's the kind of thing you can pick up anytime you feel like it. Technology changes so fast that what children learn at school will soon be obsolete, and maybe one day one of your kids will want to build a web page to showcase something they are doing, but it's not something to angst over not having.

 

Copywork and dictation are still used in France, they are not outdated and they are EFFECTIVE, who cares if the latest educational trend does not agree with them. Do we want to educate our kids or use them as educational theory guinea pigs?? Any kid who has been brought up on copywork and dictation will be able to write well, the school model of expecting creativity before kids are ready makes writing a chore and turns many children off writing in a way that is hard to overcome.

 

You CAN teach reading with just phonics as many members here will attest to. However, I firmly believe that for many children you can't just teach reading using whole word, it's a recipie for disaster for many children. And yet the powers that be continue to use it in our schools. That alone is evidence enough to me that the way schools do it is not the be-all and end-all and is sometimes just plain bad.

 

It is a solid education that will teach your kids to think, reason, enquire and argue. What more could you want?

 

:hurray:

[OregonNative]

I like to compare the results. Who do you know who is a result of a classical education? Or can you list some founding fathers? They will be on that classical ed list.

 

Now, please tell me some success stories from the modern education - especially the latest and newest things? I'm pretty skeptical about modern education - it seems more like they are using our kids as social experiments.

 

My sil drives me batty. She went to the same classical private school that I attended so I know what kind of education she had. She is working on her doctorate thesis in education. Last summer she had an epiphany that our education was wasted because we weren't taught creative writing. She has published many professional journal articles and is working on her thesis but suddenly decided that her education was lacking because she wasn't taught creative writing? Seriously. She didn't see the irony in her discovery.

 

Anyway. My poor dd9 has already discovered that her education separates her from her would-be peers. They don't have a lot to talk about because their experiences are getting further and further part. She doesn't want to start watching more tv and reading lower-level books just to have something to talk about with 9 yo girls.

:thumbup:

[OregonNative]

IMO, a classical education has two key outcomes that are highly desirable:

 

1. It develops in an individual an ability to think about anything, or learn about anything (agree with pp who said, "even powerpoint).

 

2. It causes one to think about and learn from the greatest people in history, as well as the greatest screw-ups, and maybe, just maybe there is the chance that we can keep history from repeating itself by learning these things.

 

alas, the government schools do not feel that the study of the ancients is valuable. have they really taken a critical look at the fall of the roman empire lately? considered Hammurabi and his understanding of justice? considered that the in the middle ages the Islamic invasion nearly changed the entire culture of Europe as we know it? considered that learning not just THAT things are classified, but HOW to classify creatures might inspire the ability to create classifications for many things in life, as needed. considered that by learning latin and greek one can learn any european language in a snap? i could go on, but my point is made, i think. the deeper we go into this classical approach, the more i love it. i love who my children are becoming because of it.

:cheers2:

[OregonNative]

Many of those bells and whistles offered by the schools are just expensive toys that complicate the process of learning.

 

Case in point: My kids have had two internet Spanish tutors. Our first one had an elaborate chalkboard software program for use during class. You could do all kinds of amazing things with this program. All it did was slow class down to a crawl and distract from language learning and make proper use of the software the focus. I found it frustrating. By contrast, my kids currently have an internet tutor based in Guatemala. They talk to her via skype, and keep a chat box open while they talk. Sometimes the tutor or one of the kids will type something that needs clarification, but otherwise they just speak in Spanish. The hour they have together is way, way, way more focused, and their Spanish has progressed much, much more quickly with the simpler approach.

 

I also think of our time in Guatemala nearly a year ago, where we met our Guatemalan tutors. We spent our mornings at the language school while we were there. The tutors had a small table with a whiteboard. That's it. The quality of instruction was superb, and my family made huge leaps in their Spanish.

 

Simple systems allow the focus to be on the acquisition of knowledge. Complicated systems diffuse learning by distracting a person's energy to maintaining the system.

 

AMEN!

[stripe]

I also agree that there is nothing wrong with using modern resources. I wanted to clarify in case my previous post suggested otherwise. You certainly CAN have your kids use the internet and make presentations on powerpoint. Heck, using paper and pens is not scrolls and quill pens or stone tablets. The medium, in this case, is not the message.

 

I personally tire of the idea that you have to be some historical throwback (usually people seem to get stuck in the Victorian era, however).

[Beth in SW WA]

and I'm not saying non-classical education leads to rehab :D,)

 

:lol:

 

Both my older dc are proficient in PP. As others have mentioned, it has potential to be a colossal waste of time and a distraction from actual learning. Dd took WA State History at our school district last year for a couple mornings/week. The entire year was devoted to ridiculous PP preparations. Week after week after week. DD learned minimal history. I'm convinced PP is a tool to appear productive regardless if a student has anything worthwhile to present.

 

What a great thread. I needed to read this today.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Beth in SW WA

[kalanamak]

Right.

 

The latest technology can be learned as needed, but the fundamentals need to be deeply seated. I thought my dad (born 1909) was some sort of numbers genius until I started teaching kiddo Singapore. Now I know why he could add column of number speedily in his head. Even at my advanced age, my mental math is improving.

 

I see a grammar gap very distinctly at work. Those people who are not solid in language do not move up the ladder. The few who have mid-level jobs but whose emails are full of grammatical gaffs are whispered about and not taken as seriously, and "higher ups" who are incoherent in email get squeezed out. No one is sorry to see them go. When it comes to leadership, the underlings really want to know what they are supposed to be doing, and fly to people who can express themselves rationally. It is human nature to do so, I think.

[kalanamak]

IMO, a classical education has two key outcomes that are highly desirable:

 

1. It develops in an individual an ability to think about anything, or learn about anything (agree with pp who said, "even powerpoint).

 

2. It causes one to think about and learn from the greatest people in history, as well as the greatest screw-ups, and maybe, just maybe there is the chance that we can keep history from repeating itself by learning these things.

 

 

3. By developing a rich "life of the mind", I think we are less likely to be led to wasteful, dangerous, shortsighted activities, and children today are steeped up to their ears in such temptations.

[elegantlion]

:lol:

. I'm convinced PP is a tool to appear productive regardless if a student has anything worthwhile to present.

 

 

I had the same opinion when I worked in the corporate world and had to sit through endless Monday morning meetings with PowerPoint presentations. They could have summed it up in two paragraphs and shortened the meetings by about an hour. :lol::lol:

[johnandtinagilbert]

You can always give your dc computer classes -- check your local library.

 

The beauty of classical education is that is encompasses the genius of mankind, not just that of modern technology. Seeing the picture of human invention and thought over centuries forms true intelligence and understanding. This present time is but a drop in the bucket. At some point, your children will be learning about her "modern" methods in your future history classes :) and you will have produced far better rounded individuals.

[Beatusduo]

There have been many valid and good points presented. I would agree that a clasical education is dated, and dare I say old fashioned. But it works! True, there is a lot of new technology out there, and that will be old fashion and dated when the new technology comes along. For example, the technology today allows us to instanatly "communicate" with almost anyone, anywhere at anytime. No longer is the face to face communication necessary. I think we have lost of lot because of this. How many people do you know that own many gadgets, but can't hold a conversation to save their life? Technology has changed so fast in a short amount of time that it is hard for people to grasp. I believe we should utilize the new technology but not allow it to do the thinking and problem solving for us.

My dh is a high school teacher at a private school. He is very gifted and I believe has a calling to teach. He does use technology in the classroom, but he also uses primary sources and does first person impressions in the classroom. He brings history alive for his students.

For schooling at home we do incorporate the computer and technology when necessary. We also teach our dc how to think, problem solve, be effecient communicators, and the list goes on.

I think that some teachers take it as a personal dig on their profession when they learn that you homeschool. However, I have met many teachers that support our decision.

[ArizonaGirl]

My husband works in a technical profession that requires constant updating of his skills. If he does not take a training class in six months, he is outdated. His job also requires excellent communication skills, both in writing (email) and in person.

 

His high school background in speech and debate (logic and rhetoric) have been necessary to keep his job.

 

His experience learning a foreign language kept him open to the people of many cultural backgrounds that he must deal with in his career.

 

My own background was "Traditional" and "Back-to-the-Basics" in public school. My children had the same thing until we moved to an area where the schools focused more on a modern education. After one semester, their test scores dropped by a full year. We now homeschool.

 

A solid foundation in the basics and an ability to continue to learn throughout their lives will help them more than learning whatever the latest trend may say they should learn.

[Rosie_0801]

I believe in a classical education. Really, I do. But, I can't help questioning whether or not it's a good idea to put all my eggs in the classical basket.

 

 

You're not. You're putting all your eggs into a classical cake. You can put in your best efforts and it still may not rise exactly the way you were expecting, but it will still be perfectly edible and no one will go hungry.

 

The schools that get carried away with technology to the detriment of skills and content are substituting ingredients for appetite suppressants. Sure, the kids still graduate with a cake in hand, but it's a small cake and after munching on it, thanks to the appetite suppressants, they don't feel like more.

 

Rosie

[nova mama]

You're not. You're putting all your eggs into a classical cake. You can put in your best efforts and it still may not rise exactly the way you were expecting, but it will still be perfectly edible and no one will go hungry.

 

The schools that get carried away with technology to the detriment of skills and content are substituting ingredients for appetite suppressants. Sure, the kids still graduate with a cake in hand, but it's a small cake and after munching on it, thanks to the appetite suppressants, they don't feel like more.

 

Rosie

 

That was deep, Rosie!!

 

:thumbup:

[Snickerdoodle]

You're not. You're putting all your eggs into a classical cake. You can put in your best efforts and it still may not rise exactly the way you were expecting, but it will still be perfectly edible and no one will go hungry.

 

The schools that get carried away with technology to the detriment of skills and content are substituting ingredients for appetite suppressants. Sure, the kids still graduate with a cake in hand, but it's a small cake and after munching on it, thanks to the appetite suppressants, they don't feel like more.

 

Rosie

 

That was great, Rosie.

[8filltheheart]

I guess it all depends on what your purpose is behind education.

 

If the purpose is to teach children how to regurgitate "facts", re-state given analysis, and accept what they are taught as being truth b/c they lack the reasoning skills to question "authoritarian" views.......then yes, you have made the wrong decision.

 

However, if the purpose of education is to form reasoning skills, detect fallacies in argument, not accept emotionally-charged "red herring" rhetoric as true rhetorical analysis, and learn how to investigate/research information to form their own opinion.......then, no, you have not made the wrong decision.

Edited September 25, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[LNC]

I hope this doesn't come across wrong. My son who is mentally disabled is in a public school special ed classroom. They have smart boards, they work on power point presentations with aides, they use sight words along with phonics, they have tons of computer time etc etc etc. His school started teaching Mandarin chinese this year, but they sent the special ed kids to Spanish bc "everyone has to learn Spanish nowadays".

 

They aren't capable of the kind of education my other children have at home, but what they get is so similar to what you had in your op it is eye opening. :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Creek, these people have a radically different philosophy of ed from ours, and once you get the difference you won't be in this quandry. They fundamentally think that the inherent brilliance and goodness of the student is worth something (ie. creates valuable output). We think they should learn something first. Or as they told us in philosophy of ed (not at a state university, haha), NOW you're in grad school, NOW your opinion is worth something. The whole change toward creative output is based on this subtle message, that you know something worth conveying, that you know more than your parents and are improving from generation to generation. And anyone who knows history knows this isn't the case. :)

 

Technology we have no problem with. Early introduction of modern languages we have no problem with. It's only the glorification of ignorance that we have a problem with. You can't have a valuable opinion (output) till you've learned something, and it's easy educationally to put the cart before the horse.

 

My kid does projects on the computer with her homeschool schoolwork. Doesn't everyone's? There's NOTHING WRONG with that. It's ok to say wow, hadn't thought of integrating the technology that way, thanks for the cool idea, and move on. :)

[regentrude]

I agree that a classical education is not outdated. I would like, however, to come to the defense of powerpoint.

For a visual learner like myself, it is sheer torture to sit through a lecture which presents no visuals. I find it hard to retain information that I only hear. Seeing a presentation which, for instance lists a year in which something happened, or a name of a person, will help me greatly remember. .

My son gives his oral presentations with powerpoint slides. Yes, of course he needs to have content - but in addition to content, he has the possibility to show a map of the area where the events took place he is narrating, show pictures of the people involved, of their weapons or art objects - and all this greatly enhances the experience for a listener.

 

As for the criticism about smart boards: in a homeschool, you can just show a picture in a book to the three students at your table - in a class of 30, that is not feasible. In a homeschool, you can sit around the computer screen to watch an animation of a scientific process- in a class, you need to project so all can see.

So some technology that is not necessary at home is needed when teaching to a group.

Using these tools or not has absolutely nothing to do with choosing classical education or not. One can educate classically and still incorporate modern technology.

[momto2Cs]

I think it is much more likely that Power Point will be obsolete when our children are in the workforce than being able speak, read, and write well will be out of date...

 

I currently am working toward a teaching credential, and have been somewhat bombraded with new technology options for teaching. However, I hear time and time again that college teachers/professors lament the loss of the ability to communicate clearly, through both speaking and writing, along with the inability to do basic math. More and more incoming college students are being placed in remedial classes for these very subjects.

 

I think a classical education is timeless in that it provides the students with the tools that they will need later on. Latin may not be "fashionable". but it certainly provides students with a good base understanding of the formation of language, and makes it easier to learn other languages later on. Writing, reading, phonics and copywork all provide solid examples of good literature, good writing, and the ability to decode words they may not be able to read otherwise.

 

Computer skills do have their place, but I think that a classical education provides a strong foundation that can be added to later on, with many of the more"modern" skills.

[Homemama2]

Well, as someone who had to give PP presentations in high school, and took Japanese, I'm making sure mine learn diagramming, phonics and latin! Just remember, things that sound fabulous are not always as great as they sound in real life in a public school classroom. You would not believe some of the lame, stupid, illogical PP presentations the kids did in my class and got A's for them. And how often have I used Japanese outside of the classroom? Exactly once....when I ran into my old teacher.

Just remember how high American ps ranks world wide, and then keep doing what you know is best. ;)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Another parent and I were chatting about the things we used to be expert in, like knowing all the codes for cutting and pasting in PC Write (pre Word word processing program) or for him, programming using Cobol and Fortran and using punchcards. We were remarking that these computing skills didn't make us better at using Windows based programs.

 

My point is that it is relatively easy to learn the steps to use a computer. What takes time is learning something worth expressing and sharing. Or to put it another way, using a word processor or a typewriter dakes a very small level of learned skill. Putting words together in a way that makes sense and communicates something of value is much more challenging.

 

My vote is to spend the years I have with my kids teaching them to read, think and understand. They can then apply this in whatever medium is available at the time.

[Ester Maria]

I haven't read all of the replies.

 

Technology is, in my opinion, a double-edged sword: as much as it can help and simplify our lives, it can also oversimplify them to the point at which we lose the ability to make it on our own. And while this is not something that's very problematic when it comes to time-consuming, menial tasks, since if the technology fails one's mind can still create new technology, when it comes to intellectual tasks, there is this tiny line which is not to be crossed: it's one thing to use technology as an aid in thinking process, something that makes you quicker, and it's a completely different thing to use it as a goal and as a substitute for the thinking process. Unfortunately, pushing technology earlier and earlier onto students often deprives them of practicing some quite basic skills (the ability to perform certain calculations mentally, the need to sit down and focus on the text rather than google for an explanation right away, the need to let things settle down a little before proceeding on dealing with them, etc.). Technology is thus often synonimous with hurry and with incomplete, partial understanding of the material itself, since often a lot more attention is dedicated to the appearance of that information.

 

Unfortunately, we lived at the age where educational trends emphasize various types of applying the information before one understands it. So we have all kinds of creative projects, PPs and alike which often neither require nor lead to serious understanding, but are, ahem, fun. And that's the KEY mistake in today's education: the overemphasizing of the element of fun, and the underemphasizing actual work and actual understanding.

 

Smartboards are, essentially, just expensive toys. There is nothing in them that makes learning better than getting each child a textbook with the content, though they might be more practical for classrooms with a few dozen students. Chinese is the linguistic fad of the moment, and while learning any language is a worthwhile task in itself, the fact remains that for a child educated in the so-called "Western civilization" there are at least 5-6 languages more fundamental to the understanding thereof before one expands their horizons outside of it and deals with the more "exotic" languages (barring, of course, cases in which such languages ARE a part of the family and cultural heritage, but I'm talking your average Western-cultured American now, whose cultural experience and roots are almost completely derived from classical antiquity and Judeo-Christian heritage). PPs are a nice visual trick to accompany the lectures, but if you've nothing to say in the lecture itself, they only stand as a poor proof of your incompetence. And so forth. It's not that the school you mention is teaching their students something bad, the problem is that they - how shall I put it? - are teaching the extras as a substitute for basics. While we can, again, enter the long and tiring discussion of what consititutes basics in the first place, emphasizing fancy technology at the expense of good reading is never a good idea, even if Latin isn't on your basics list.

 

I don't think, at all, that we should educate our children as if they didn't belong to a particular time and place they DO belong to, with all the complexities it involves. Modern history, civics, the complexities of the world geopolitics, IT, heck, even literacy in the pop-culture that they pick up by the sole circling around other kids, are all important parts of their (formal and informal) formation. However, one's formation if LIMITED to those areas is very incomplete. PRECISELY NOW, in the world with so MUCH information out there - but likewise so much oversimplified and plan incorrect information, where anyone can put anything online, they NEED the skills of critical thinking and reading and understanding things. You wouldn't believe how much scam there is in "serious scholarship", let alone on google. I refuse to let my children become modern pseudo-intellectuals this way.

 

Education is so much more than drilling kids with certain facts. It involves a complex net of habits, as well as cognitive skills; it shapes the whole person, on ethical and aesthetic levels as well, not only 'purely' academic. Quick-fix courses, crash courses of this and that, lots of colorful things to make up for the content, are NEVER going to be able to substitute an organized, structured process of educating a mind. Expensive toys are okay if they lead to the same results as the good old ex cathedra. From what I've seen, they not only don't, they don't even produce the consciousness that something is wrong and incomplete here. Something changes for the bad if you're exposed to less text, but more colorful distractions, and if you hurry through helped by all sorts of visual effects, without taking time to stop and think through what you're reading and discuss it.

 

Children can be technologically literate, and they probably will be, regardless of whether you specifically teach it or no - because they live in such time and place. On the other hand, the time and place they live in will NOT help them to become truly educated, but offer them all sorts of cheap "alternatives" for an education, so that's certainly an area in which you can and should interfere.

 

I'm also more of a basic person, I dislike distractions: I work with plain text most of the time. Not that I refuse a refreshment in form of a PP from time to time, but generally, the more basic the setting, the better it is for us.

[homeschoolally]

:lol:

 

I'm convinced PP is a tool to appear productive regardless if a student has anything worthwhile to present.

 

What a great thread. I needed to read this today.

 

:D Yes!

 

I used to teach one-day intensive software seminars and couldn't agree more.

 

I agree--what good is knowing how to use the technology if you lack the skills to use strong content? I see classical ed a little like 'teaching them to fish' because they could pick up these skills in a day if they know HOW to learn.

Edited September 26, 2010 by homeschoolally

[Snickerdoodle]

Here's one for you:

 

 

Learning by Playing: Video Games in the Classroom

 

 

WHAT IF TEACHERS GAVE UP the vestiges of their educational past, threw away the worksheets, burned the canon and reconfigured the foundation upon which a century of learning has been built? What if we blurred the lines between academic subjects and reimagined the typical American classroom so that, at least in theory, it came to resemble a typical American living room or a child’s bedroom or even a child’s pocket, circa 2010 — if, in other words, the slipstream of broadband and always-on technology that fuels our world became the source and organizing principle of our children’s learning? What if, instead of seeing school the way we’ve known it, we saw it for what our children dreamed it might be: a big, delicious video game?

 

[prairie rose]

I agree with the majority of the posters in this thread but one thing I haven't seen in this thread and is my standard go-to answer for those who question my homeschool practices....if I wanted my kids to have a public school education, I would send them to public school. ;)

[Satori]

I'm an extremely techie person and love my gadgets, but I still highly value a classical education over the latest modern toys and trends. My daughter is getting a very thorough phonics education. She's learning about history. She's starting to learn Latin. She'll learn diagramming next year. We read great literature and study fine art and music. These subjects take years to learn and will help her in many areas in life.

 

Sure, I'll take a day to teach her the basics of HTML, no biggie. Maybe we'll do some fun programming in Visual Studio later on. She'll learn digital photography and Photoshop. She'll learn Powerpoint, her Dad uses it everyday. But no big deal on this stuff, like people mentioned, these are skills that can be learned in a day. If she wants to get better at digital imaging/Photoshop, she have all the resources at her disposal, but I'm not considering these skills a foundation of her education.

 

Anyway, we'll be having both worlds in our homeschool, with both parents coming from a very computer-oriented world, but our priorities will be giving a classical education, which is timeless.

[Carol in Cal.]

Oh please.

 

Those technology items are just presentation tools. They are the not even the icing on the cake; rather, they are the decoration on the icing on the cake. The cake is the content--classical ed teaches and organizes content like nothing else. The icing is the organization of the presentation--with outlining and logic, classical ed organizes content like nothing else. The decorations on the icing on the cake could be written reports, outlines, speeches, logical papers, or Powerpoints.

 

We are not living under a rock making our kids mine their own chalk for cute little chalkboards handcarved from native rocks. Our presentations are just fine, whether they are academic papers or outlines or whatever. Powerpoint can be learned in about 15 minutes, and should not be worshipped as all that helpful unless and until you really have something good to say.

[i.love.lucy]

not be worshipped as all that helpful unless and until you really have something good to say.

:iagree:Most of the technology in use today was not even thought of when we were in school, and the technology available to our children when they are grown won't be the same as today. I don't think any of our kids live under a rock. My kids will know how to type sooner than I did. And they have more fun technology at their fingertips for research and enhancement than I ever did. But the bottom line for me is that foundational love of learning. That appreciation for the classics and how those "old" things still inform and shape most of what we know. What good is it to do research if you have no idea how to form your thoughts on what you learned? Why know how to do a presentation on PowerPoint if you can't speak in front of people or formulate your thoughts?

 

Since when is technology the end all - be all of what we need? In the same way that I would never want to only emphasize grammar to the detriment of a solid math education, why should the public sch proponents act like the technology available to kids there is the "best" of what can be offered for their education? I just don't get it.

 

Besides, the schools can promote all this fancy stuff that my tax dollars are paying for, but when my dd was there she was lucky to get 15 minutes on a computer twice a week. I know not all schools are that way, so *shrug* I guess some kids are more lucky than others to get more computer time?:confused: At home we can have an hour a day if I want to with GarageBand and PhotoShop and safe internet research and learning to type and yes, even playing a game here and there.

[ColoradoMom]

I think it really depends on what your kids want to do in college - if they go to college. If they want to do science then they had better know how to make a PowerPoint poster and a presentation to go with it.

 

Frankly, I don't see PowerPoint going away any time soon. I use it every single day and there are so many add-on programs to PP that there is no way they will phase it out. In fact PP 2010 just came out. (And looks great in my opinion - I can't wait to get it).

 

If they want to do business then they had better know Excel spreadsheets. Again, I don't see Excel being replaced - updated YES, but replaced no. Not any time soon.

 

If they are going into math then they had better know how to use a TI-83 (4 etc) or they will be LOST in college calculus.

 

If they want to do art then they have a choice - do they want the traditional starving artist path with paint and pastels, or do they want to do graphic design? If graphic design, then they better know a little bit about Illustrator, Photoshop, Draw etc.

 

So it really depends. We are technology oriented and my son wants to be an artist so this year (8th grade) he is learning Corel Draw and painter as well as 2-D animation on Toon Boom. Friday is nothing but technology and art in our house. He will also do a PowerPoint poster this winter for his science fair project - it's just good to have them prepared and not limit their choices in my opinion. PowerPoint posters are pretty typical, even in freshman year.