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[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Carrie12345]

I can't say I've seen that (yet!) in the upper grades. Mostly, I see parents turning to ps (cyber charter or b&m) because they "don't know how" to do it on their own. Which, imo, is much better than the scenario you've presented!

 

I do see it a little bit at the lower grades. I tend to take that stance with non-core subjects for my younger kids, but there's no way my personality would allow for that in the Big Subjects. ;)

[K&Rs Mom]

I've heard of this but not seen it personally. The unschoolers I know either have little kids, so they couldn't really be behind yet, or work REALLY hard to get learning opportunities in front of the kids. The one mom I know who unschools her teen is just amazing with how she sets him up with things that he loves but that are stretching him academically. I don't think she's keeping transcripts, because a lot of it doesn't fall into subject boxes, but this boy will have no problem starting at a community college when he's 16 or 17.

[....]

I actually have never seen this either (in person). We know families who use different approaches to homeschooling. We're best friends with a family that uses BJU Press for everything (and we tease each other - she says we're "overachievers" and I say, "You must really like BJU :thumbup:"). But, no, we've never met a homeschooling family like you are describing. :tongue_smilie: LOL.

 

I did have relatives who pulled their kids out of high school about 15 years ago for social reasons and the parents didn't work with the kids. The kids kinda educated themselves, but they were smart and both ended up getting into college.

 

Hmmmm...

[Miss Marple]

Yes, I've seen it. And when these families do decide that they should put the children in another school situation, the kids have been woefully behind. And that knowledge really makes them feel terrible and they go on to tell others that homeschooling just doesn't work - ARGH! It didn't work *for them* because *they didn't work*.

 

But I think there is something to the "they'll figure it out". I've seen some of these kids decide to make it work. I think it's when they realize the old saying "at least we're doing better than the public schoolers" just isn't true for everyone. They take remedial courses at the CC and eventually graduate. They were not adequately prepared but they realized that they had to do it themselves, and they did. At some point they can no longer blame it on mom. For now, in our country, educational opportunity exists for all. Once these kids reach adulthood, they simply need to go out and take advantage of it.

[MotherGoose]

I think the mom you mentioned is neglecting her children academically, and if the state ever got wind of it, they'd intervene.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I don't have a problem with the various styles of homeschooling.

 

I do have a LOT of a problem with do-nothingness at any level. The majority of homeschoolers I've met in the last many years have been do-nothing homeschoolers. Mostly these are homeschoolers for whom life gets in the way ALL.THE.TIME. A few eased into do-nothingness years ago and then try to justify it as a style. These teens have been VERY difficult to deal with ruining groups and classes.

[Tabrett]

Doesn't the state have any requirements? You have to have algebra in SC to graduate. How does one graduate without earning state required credits?

 

I do remember one family many years ago that pulled out their dd's and tried to get them to use SOS. Neither dd would do the work and both just quite school. Both were also LD. But, they didn't graduate.

[Renee in NC]

This same homeschooler also has a soon-to-be 7th grader who cannot read (I suspect undiagnosed learning disabilities). :blink:

 

I know I can sometimes go waaay out there with schedules and over-planning, but this really bothers me. Anyone else see stuff like this?

 

I have never met a homeschooler who did not care about his or her children's academics at all. I have met homeschoolers with different focuses and different goals, but none that just plain didn't care.

 

As for the 7th grader who can't read - even if the LDs were diagnosed it may be that the child couldn't read anyway. My sister could not read in 7th grade. My 9yo cannot read, despite diagnosis and intensive work. I don't know that I would make the jump from "can't read in 7th grade" to "parent doesn't care." I care very, very much and may *still* have a 7th grader who can't read. I sincerely hope not, but it is possible. Judgement from others about what they *think* is going on in my home won't make him read either.

[Janie]

Yes, I've seen it. And when these families do decide that they should put the children in another school situation, the kids have been woefully behind. And that knowledge really makes them feel terrible and they go on to tell others that homeschooling just doesn't work - ARGH! It didn't work *for them* because *they didn't work*.

 

Ah, Cynthia, you are so right! Since I've been back in a traditional classroom as a middle school teacher, I see many transitions from homeschooling to the classroom. The parents that have done their job right have students who succeed. The parents who have abdicated the throne for "unschooling" or just plain not taken this **job** seriously have children who are so behind it's scary. And then, they (the parents) turn around and blame us teachers for failing to cause their child to succeed. It's asinine. And it's the students who will pay the price for the parents' failure.

 

Years ago when I was homeschooling, I was an area Stanford Achievement Test administrator. One family asked me to do this for them. They lived in the area but I didn't know them until then. They had a sixteen-year-old girl who could barely read on the fourth grade level and could do very little math. Their eleven-year-old boy could hardly read at first-grade level and math, forget it. These kids had been homesteaded by (what I call) left-over hippies, he was a brilliant, yet detached, chemical engineer / inventor and she was the homesteader. The kids knew how to take care of the animals and the garden, but book learning was absent. Not that the family didn't appreciate it, they just didn't do it. Funny, how things happen though. Three years after this, the girl had developed into a fairly good reader who loved to read Percy Bysshe Shelley's poems.

 

[Impish]

I have heart palpitations and night terrors about not doing right by my kids.

 

Seriously, one of my biggest (if not THE biggest) fears I have.

 

I don't understand how someone can be so cavalier about educating their children.

[LibraryLover]

The unschoolers I know are some of the most energetic & creative people I have ever met. I've heard stories about do- nothing unchoolers, but have never met one.

 

Some unschooling younger children might not be reading, but I don't know any '7th graders' not reading. I don't know any unschoolers who would not address an actual issue is some way. I've known unschoolers to do OT and PT, fi. I do however, know unschoolers who would not be thinking a non -reading 7 yr old has a learning disability.

 

I continually see that this relaxed approach works in the child's favor. Too many kids, ime, are labled with issues when they have no issues. The belief there is an exact & pure time-line for learning certain skills is unnecessarily stressful for the parent and the child. Time cures a world of 'ills'.

 

However, I do not know any unschoolers who would watch a 12 or 13 yr old child struggle to read and do nothing to help.

Edited July 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[EKS]

Yes--It really bothers me when other parents are calling their 12yo's lack of ability to read "developmental."

 

But it's really none of my business, so I don't say a word.

 

ETA: I don't say a word IRL; on here I say something with great frequency.

Edited July 30, 2010 by EKS

[Ester Maria]

It bothers me out of "selfish" reasons - those people give us ALL a bad name, and that's how the urban legends - such as "homeschoolers exploit the system in order to do nothing, most of them are anyway fundamentalists of an ideology and do it in order to shelter their childre from the world" - come into existence.

 

If I'm to be fair, most of the homeschoolers I've met genuinely care about their children's educations - in fact, if we're to judge by the participants of these boards alone, one can be sure of it. I may be in a VERY small minority by how I educate my own children, but I'm not dismissing anyone's efforts provided the parents genuinely care and the children are getting adequate education. For non-LDs, I would say a rough equivalent or higher of the "age-level grade" would be my norm.

 

Having a non-severe-LD child in 7th grade who cannot read is not "different educational philosophy" - it's PARENTAL NEGLECT and, in my opinion, should be addressed as such. Having somebody "graduate" without algebra (for God's sake, algebra, we're not talking about calculus for all!) is not "different philosophy" - it's ACADEMIC DISHONESTY, since their diploma is being issued without meeting high school standards (official or not, but high school learning material should be met in high school!) and should be addressed as such.

 

Those things sometimes really irk me, even though I normally don't consider it my business. But then again, all has its limits, right?

[MotherGoose]

When people meet folks who are "nonschoolers" as you say, it gives the rest of us who do the right thing a bad name. Yes, some 12 year olds may not read whether or not they are in traditional school, but there's no excuse for that 17 yo to "graduate high school" without ever taking Algebra. That's neglectful. People who won the right for the rest of us to homeschool our kids did it by proving to the authorities that they could do a better job than the public schools, not by keeping them home and pretending to teach them.

[Mom-ninja.]

No, I haven't seen this in the home schoolers I know. I have seen it with parents of ps kids.

[TammyinTN]

I have heart palpitations and night terrors about not doing right by my kids.

 

Seriously, one of my biggest (if not THE biggest) fears I have.

 

I don't understand how someone can be so cavalier about educating their children.

 

I know exactly what you mean. I was so stressed when both my girls left home to move on with their adult lives...they have both done very well. I keep picking their brains about the last one though. I ask them questions about stuff all the time. Their brother is such a different type of learner I've had to learn to think outside the box. :D

[MorganClassicalPrep]

I've never seen this type of cavalier attitude.

 

I agree with what a previous poster said... NOT doing right by my daughter's education is a HUGE fear of mine. I spend more time on planning and implementing her schooling than I do anything else. During planning periods I lose sleep over planning.

 

I think that by pulling our children out to homeschool we are saying that I WILL be responsible for this. People that don't want to be responsible for educating their children should leave them in public school. And don't attack me here, but I have had public school parents flat out tell me that they send their kids to school, because they don't want to be responsible for it/don't want to deal with it. If you aren't going to do everything in your power to educate your children, putting them in public school is the right thing to do.

 

This isn't unschooling, it is NONschooling.. and it is one of the reasons ALL homeschoolers have a bad rep.

 

And I disagree that there is something to the "they will figure it out" argument. Yes, they can always go to CC and make up for the deficiencies, but they will be behind their peers. They will spend more money and more time learning the basics, and will have to work much harder than others in their classes. Instead of focusing on bringing their writing to a new level, they will have to learn to write period (as in, an essay, not the physical act of handwriting.) Instead of learning how to apply math to different applications, they will have to learn... math! And school isn't cheap, haven't we had many discussions about college debt?? Children who have to go through extensive remediation in college will most likely have more debt.

[Miss Marple]

And I disagree that there is something to the "they will figure it out" argument. Yes, they can always go to CC and make up for the deficiencies, but they will be behind their peers. They will spend more money and more time learning the basics, and will have to work much harder than others in their classes. Instead of focusing on bringing their writing to a new level, they will have to learn to write period (as in, an essay, not the physical act of handwriting.) Instead of learning how to apply math to different applications, they will have to learn... math! And school isn't cheap, haven't we had many discussions about college debt?? Children who have to go through extensive remediation in college will most likely have more debt.

 

But they can still figure it out. It might cost more in both time and money, but they can and many do take advantage of the opportunities that exist. This doesn't serve as an excuse for the non-schooling parent in any way. But at some point our kids become adults and they need to put on their big boy pants and take charge of their lives. No longer can they blame their parents for everything. I've heard too many kids say their parents did such a poor job in (whatever) so that they could not possibly do X, Y, or Z. My answer is to forget that which is past (who of us can say we were raised by perfect parents) and take advantage of the opportunities that do exist in our country.

 

Will they ever reach the potential they might have had if their parents had chosen to do the hard work? Maybe not, but I've seen some who have. It takes determination, time, and in some cases $$$. Most of those I know who experienced this type of schooling were able to go to school free because of income status.

 

So the ideal is to do the hard work and school our kids. But the reality is that there are those who won't. I think homeschoolers probably match any cross section of public schoolers. We have the slackers just the same as the slacker public school parents, and we have the gung-ho parents as well. I would prefer that the homeschool world was more in line with those on this forum, but that just isn't the case. And, just like a large proportion of public schoolers need remediation, we have homeschoolers who need it as well.

 

When I speak to moms' groups, I stress the need of the parent to consider this a job and to do it well. When I speak to students' groups, I stress the need for them to take charge of their education and be responsible for the outcome. There are many helps available and I try to steer them in the directions of those. It really takes a team effort to produce the *best* product.

[jld]

Judgment. We're all guilty of it, I guess.

 

Our state association continually reminds people to focus on their own kids and do what is right for them, and let other people do the same. Good advice.:)

[kalanamak]

Our state association continually reminds people to focus on their own kids and do what is right for them, and let other people do the same. Good advice.:)

 

Enough bad press and the hammer will come down. I have no fear of umbrellas or partnerships or PS on line, but if academically neglected kids become too prevalent, the hammer will come down.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Enough bad press and the hammer will come down. I have no fear of umbrellas or partnerships or PS on line, but if academically neglected kids become too prevalent, the hammer will come down.

 

:iagree:It's not about passing judgement just to judge... it's the fact that families who neglect to give their children a proper education threaten the rights of those of us who DO give our children a proper education.

 

Besides that... don't we have a right to protect children? I guess... I just really feel that a situation as described in the original post is neglectful and irresponsible. I understand that it is a thin line we walk as homeschoolers, more oversight could make things difficult for some (such as unschoolers, who for the most part ARE educating their children) but then I look at situations like this when I feel like there SHOULD be more oversight, to prevent this from happening.

 

I know that there are many on the board who think that the government should stay out of your family issues, etc.etc., but I tend to think on a larger scale, and am willing to deal with a little of government intervention if it serves the children.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Judgment. We're all guilty of it, I guess.

 

Our state association continually reminds people to focus on their own kids and do what is right for them, and let other people do the same. Good advice.:)

 

I do not think that it is judgmental to have basic standards of what constitutes an education. People have been careful to point out that the examples they gave were not people who had a different educational philosophy but were still interested in their childrens' education, like many unschoolers. Nor have they been people who are just perhaps a little bit behind due to a different sequence or small delays. No one has a problem with kids being behind because of genuine disabilities that are being addressed or accommodated. The people mentioned have had children who are extremely behind and did not seem to be addressing it at all. Yes, I know that the operative word there is "seem" but many of these same people will openly tell you that they are not addressing it.

 

I knew of one family who was guilty of educational neglect. But honestly the educational neglect was minor compared to the emotional, nutritional and other neglect. The kids were taken from the family from the state legitimately due to abuse.

[Peela]

I think it is very hard to judge. The unschoolers I know are very creative and dedicated too. I am not against some sort of government moderation- as I have- in a once a year visit just to check that some sort of progress is being made in some basic areas. My moderator tells me some real horror stories of some of her cases...so there are some cases out there that really have nothing to do with homeschooling...it is just neglect, as well as deep ignorance.

 

However I can say I think not learning algebra is probably not the end of the world..or composition. Its probably heretical on these boards amongst such academically inclined people....but I am teaching my son algebra at the moment and I remember algebra from highschool really well so so far its easy for me to help him. However, the few times I have had other people around while he was doing his maths, and I asked them if they could do this level of basic algebra (just order of operations, solving basic equations) they have so far all said no, they forgot it all. That includes his dad. One of the friends that was here is 53 and a retired millionaire builder.

 

And composition is not something that is actually taught directly in Australian schools much anyway. Theres a lot of creative writing and some essay writing...but not much structure is taught.

 

I would be more concerned if he couldn't fill in forms, write a letter of complaint, or check his change quickly.

 

Many adults I meet do not read....including my dh. I cant relate to it. But I wonder if they burned out in school. Or maybe not everyone is naturally interested in reading.

 

I have friends with a one year old who are presently raving about how they are going to homeschool him...or rather, go with "natural learning/unschooling". I love their passion and enthusiasm for wanting the best for their kid. And they are partially inspired by my kids being homeschooled. We will see how it pans out in the long run. Idealism is great but projecting too much onto kids- that they are isnt of any use

 

I think a lot of people feel like the mother in the OP who says kids can teach themselves anything at any time. They put a lot of trust in their kids' abilities and in many cases it seems to pay off. But....thats if they know how to learn in the first place, and have the patience and perserverence to teach themselves what they need to learn to get where they want to get.

 

Considering how hard my LD son finds some things....if I didnt push him through, he probably would never voluntarily choose to do those things which feel too hard to him- ever. He might not read (and once we got past a certian point with a lot of hard work, he loves reading). He almost certainly wouldn't write voluntarily. It took a lot of serious consideration- revisited many times- whether to unschool my son, because he does have a quirky personality and just maybe it would fit him. But....I have decided against it again and again because I couldn't put as much trust in the innate desire to learn what was necessary for a child's life...as unschoolers do. I would be going by an ideal, rather than something I had experienced as working. Too great a risk.

 

But...its easy as a classical homeschooler to judge others who do it radically differently, and I do think its probably better to reserve judgement most of the time. I also know a man whose two now grown sons went to Sudbury Valley school- an unschooling school. I asked my friend how they turned out...and he said brilliantly. He only sees them a couple of times a year at most becuse he is in Australia, but he is in regular contact and they are having amazing lives- one travels, the other studies.

 

I suspect many kids can get by without algebra and composition and still live wonderful lives that never need algebra or composition skills. But I think you would have to walk in their shoes to really know, in many cases, whether it was neglect or a deep belief in an ideal that actually does work for many of them.

[Ester Maria]

I suspect many kids can get by without algebra and composition and still live wonderful lives that never need algebra or composition skills. But I think you would have to walk in their shoes to really know, in many cases, whether it was neglect or a deep belief in an ideal that actually does work for many of them.

I definitely don't consider neither algebra nor explicitly taught composition to be some kind of a "sacred ground" of education; but I think that you might be going to a wrong direction here with the argument that says that many wonderful and successful people don't know or weren't even taught these skills.

 

The real problem here - at least as I see it - is the "okay, but where do you draw the line?" one, since that kind of argumentation can be applied to pretty much everything. Beneath it, there is this subtle utilitarian approach which views education through the prism of practical utility and applicability... BUT, if we're going to consider it that way, we don't have to educate our children past lower middle school, since the direct usefulness of the material taught goes down once you have a fairly literate child that can do basic arithmetic and knows the very basic scientific and sociological information that will equipen him/her to function in their surrounding.

 

The problem that I personally have with this type of homeschoolers is that they perform acts of indirect academic dishonesty by issuing high school diplomas on what was not high school level material coverage but, rather, what belonged to lower educational levels. As mathematics is one of the areas which "build up" and it assumes a structural approach, and as some type of mathematics is certainly required on high school level, and as algebra is one of the lowest high school mathematics areas, we reach a very logical conclusion that one CANNOT graduate without algebra. A mother CANNOT issue a high school diploma without coverage of that area - unless it was, of course, covered before high school - without delving into subtle academic dishonesty and presenting lower mathematics as high school work when it's, in fact, not.

 

Different educational philosophies are most welcome, but on the long run, they HAVE to produce at least the government minimum (i.e. the equivalent of what would have been done in a government school), or else we ARE talking about educational neglect (assuming, of course, no severe LDs issues are involved and we're talking about a child of average intelligence), since you aren't able of providing your child with a minimum - and that minimum is very, VERY flexible in most anglophone countries, especially in America, when compared with the requirements you must meet in most of Europe which are pretty much the exact equivalents of a specific school (often, your child is technically officially "enrolled", only not attending "their" school), in every subject, your children get actually tested, and sometimes your choices are very limited since there is a structured program you MUST satisfy... and in addition to that, whatever you please. That way, they ensure the minimum is being done - and while they ARE often too rigid (I don't think the world will end if reading is postponed for a year, for example, or if one "adapts" the structure a little for their child), one of the reason why they're doing it is precisely the chaos that one encounters overseas and that they're very familiar with, since they see all sorts of neglect masqued as a "different educational philosophy".

 

I don't think reading in 7th grade is the least bit an issue of a different educational philosophy. We can debate that reading in K as opposed to reading in 2nd grade is an issue of a different educational philosophy - those are the individual differences that I agree we should take into account and allow among the homeschool population - but having a technically illiterate child in 7th grade... that's exploited freedom, abused freedom. Just like issuing a high school diploma on what WASN'T high school level content, without covering the BASICS of high school level content, is exploited freedom to the point that many think it can be considered criminal (academic dishonesty, false claims, etc.). The reason why most European countries that do allow homeschooling are so rigid about their requirements is that they've learned a thing or two from other countries - and they aren't willing to let that happen there. Based on the little I've encountered (and I haven't seen nearly the worst examples I've heard of), I can't say I don't understand them, even though I do believe that in some cases they're too extreme and inconsiderate of differences that ARE the product of a different educational philosophy.

 

And that's the problem: people who aren't serious about homeschooling and who don't stick to the minimal standards actually seriously threaten ALL of us and give us ALL a bad name.

While I normally don't think it's my place to tell somebody how to educate or raise their children as long as it's within some socially accepted standards of "normality", once it turns into neglect/abuse or can potentially affect the larger society in a bad way, it might indirectly become my problem as well, and it's just an issue of a normal, human concern for other children that might be obviously mistreated. That's why government and, broader, society DOES care about what homeschoolers do - and that's why it SHOULD care that a minimum is being done. To most of the people on these boards it's a completely crazy idea, because these boards consist of educated individuals that DO know things and DO genuinely care and DO do a great job when it comes to their children's educations and provide their children with far more than what the "system" would have done and, thus, just want to be left alone off too much external control - which I can fully understand - but unfortunately, not 100% of homeschoolers are in that group, and even in 99% are, it still means that SOME children are in danger of not getting a minimal education.

 

I'm all for freedom and staying out of other people's business, but I think that the line between different educational philosophies and educational neglect is NOT a very thin line and is usually NOT an issue of interpretation.

 

Only my .02 of course, you may fully disagree with what I write, but that's how the situation seems to me. I dislike unschooling personally, but if it ultimately leads to the coverage of the same minimum and if children are not years behind their peers at any stage of education, I'm all for it.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Ester Maria

[Dmmetler]

In my state, high school requires pretty specific requirements, and whether you register with a state or with a cover school, they're reasonably careful to make sure you get them, which is why so many people end up going with Abeka, BJU, or back to a classroom situation either full or part-time for high school.

 

What I'm seeing is the "you don't need a formal curriculum, just let them explore" folks really, really struggling to get their kids through these high school level classes, often discovering big holes because, while their child might have absorbed a lot of physics playing outside and rolling balls and cars around, if they haven't had the specific terminology and prior structure, high school physics is a tough row to hoe indeed.

 

At least two of the people who, two years ago were telling me "Let her be little-why rush?" when they saw my early reader picking up books and reading them now are asking me what I'm using for curriculum with my DD, because they want to do something more structured with their younger children than they did with their older ones.

[TravelingChris]

I am a sixteen year homeschooler, have been in groups with unschoolers though I am not one, and have never met such a family. Yes, some are less diligent than us and others more strict. But everyone was educating their children. I do think that many homeschoolers aren't diligent enough about math instruction. My standard is that everyone graduating from high school and heading to college should have pre-algebra finished by graduation. So, no, I don't think that having only Algebra 1 at the end of high school is adequate for a normal, college bound student. This doesn't pertain to vocational students or children with special needs who have particular difficulties with math. But that shouldn't be most kids.

[Renee in NC]

The reason I bristle so much as these kind of discussions is because of my three boys. People who know them don't think they have any problems, but it is blatantly obvious (especially with my 9yo) that they are years behind academically. He has made progress - as a 6yo he functioned as a preschooler, so his frist grade level 3 years later is progress.

 

I have told people in the past that I wasn't worried about it, or that it would come in time, or something along those lines. Why? Because I can't go around giving everyone they come in contact with a breakdown of their particular IQ scores and disabilities, can I? So, there are probably plenty around who think I am neglecting my dc's education.

[phathui5]

I've known a lot of homeschooling families, as we've been homeschooling for five years now and have tried to be active in the homeschooling community.

 

I've only met one "unschooling" family where I really think that the parents were just non-schooling. The kids weren't asked to do anything academically. They mostly played on the computer (not "learning" games, just games). The mom was basically online all day too. Now, I'm online a lot during the day, both for work and to hang out on message boards, but I also manage to get a lot done with the kids and the house and work.

[Miss Marple]

I typically do not make these assertions unless the parent has said something to me about the methods used for homeschooling. That, taken with the student's obvious abilities, will lead me to the conclusion that a parent is non-schooling. I would never only look at the student's performance.

 

One family I know pulled out of our co-op because it was interfering with the family life. During the discussion it came to light that the mom was unhappy because she and the girls had to get dressed and head out of the house at 9:00 a.m. to go to co-op once a week. Then there was the problem that they could not just sit on her bed and do school for an hour in their jammies. Schooling actually required more than 1-2 hours per day! And these were high schoolers! These girls were involved in every social activity available yet they could not find the time to complete assignments. One of the young ladies decided that it was to her benefit to actually "do" school so she pretty much took it upon herself and did it. She went on to graduate albeit with junior high level courses considered high school...but she did it. The mom decided to "graduate" the other daughter early (don't know where she came up with the credits for that) and that young lady is floundering still...2 years later.

[jld]

Fourteen years ago we joined our state homeschooling organization, when dd was 1. I remember reading, in either the first newsletter, or in the handbook that we purchased, about the threat to homeschooling from within: the judgment from some homeschoolers on others different from themselves. The people leading the organization had already seen this as a problem, and homeschooling was only about 10 years old in our state at that time. If these people saw it as a threat, then I think that was, and is, pretty much what it is. Maintaining reasonable laws, and supporting one another, is the best way to keep homeschooling free, at least according to the organization I belong to. "United we stand; divided we fall."

[naturegirl7]

Sounds more like your friend is one of the unschoolers who give all unschoolers a bad rap. That is NOT how most unschooler are - atleast the ones I know.

 

Most unschoolers truly care about their kids and their kids' education - just want them to learn - As They Are Ready. Learning that is uncoerced often tends to be easier and lend itself to mastery and retention. There is no point forcing math on a child who is simply not ready or unwilling to learn it. Instead providing lots of imbedded learning experiences and math experiences in daily life (like shopping, cooking, money, etc) teaches them without formally teaching them. It isn't that they are anti-curriculum or anti-teaching - just wait until the child shows interest and ability to learn before actively, formally teaching. But the daily life experiences are teaching experiences! Especially when you think it out and plan them ;)

 

Most WOULD be concerned if their 7th grader was not reading or showed signs of a learning disability. They don't neglect their child's education, just approach it from a different method....your friend just sounds neglectful of their education....

 

We do the natural led learning here - not quite hard core unschooling or hard core homeschooling - we follow DS's led and do what works (which most unschoolers say is what they do - I just personally have issues with the term unschooling and all the radical unschoolers - mainly due to the above sterotype)

 

I let DS work at his own pace but I am obsessed with where DS is and what he is learning. I plan out his learning - not with books, workbooks, tests, etc - but with experiences and learning opportunities. I find that he learns best that way. He excels this way - but you put a workbook in front of him and he freezes up. Whatever works! is my motto :D

 

Today he was playing with clay and decided he was making a volcano, and then informed me it was lots of work cuz he had to make the magma, the vent, and the magma chamber - and explained the innner workings of a volcano and the process of eruption in create detail - Did I ever teach him that? Nope! He learned it by reading his volcano books and by playing a cool volcano simulator on Cosmeo.com and engaging in some great creative play - about 4 months ago!!! He hasn't been interested in the topic of volcanos for the last few months, but obviously he retained what he learned. he was't taught, but he learned it and mastered it. I really like that.

 

He devours history, science, and literature but doesnt like math - so we just provided lots of daily life skills math in the hopes of sparking his interest. It just recently worked and he started asking "to learn more math" when he tried to do upper level math that interested him and he struggled cuz he couldn't add, now he has the drive and desire, and is really taking off - now I am getting MUS to learn math together (I will likely use it a bit more loosely than others here but I like the progression of skills and hands-on learning).

 

Because we are following his lead, my K curriculum is NOT the standard K curriculum. He already has the K skills and topics mastered (aside from handwriting). He actually has several grade levels mastered (aside from the math :tongue_smilie:) So I have adapted the curriculum to meet his needs and current passions. It is definitely NOT a K curriculum though. It is really relaxed, and learns thru literature, experiments, experiences, field trips, etc But it is challenging too...

 

So our wacky K curriculum is

 

~History - ancient histories (egypt, rome and greece per his request) and mythologies (he already has a better grasp of this than I do!) and world and US geography (flat stanley project, world atlas shower curtain, M&D wipe off state mat, and lots of books lol);

 

~MUS math (with some ancient roman and egyptian math thrown in cuz that is his motivation for learning basic math);

 

~science is a mesh of A&P (college level mostly thanks to Daddy being in school and them learning together every night), basic physics, biology and ecology, astronomy (he is a Stephen Hawkings nut!), and general nature studies. Not any new topic, just expanding on his knowledge already. Books, discovery channel, science channel, experiments, field trips to the space center, the zoo and nature hikes. And of course study time with Daddy :D

 

~ Language Arts - the endless books that he reads on a daily basis, plus all the other curriculums are mainly literature based. Some fun language arts games cuz he is excited over sentence structure and verbs/nouns/adjectives at the moment.

 

This is so NOT what your "average" 5yo learns - but actually fairly typical for "unschoolers" of the non-radical sect around here. We are following his lead so that is what we are learning. What we are doing and how we are doing it is nothing new, just a continuation of what we are already doing with him. I am personally stressing over how to keep records and track all of it for his portfolio. For me, unschooling/child led learning is more "work" than following a prepackaged curriculum - but it is so much easier for him to learn.

 

Unschooling started out as meaning not learning in a brick and mortar school, but learning at home. Now that definition has evolved so much (often thanks to negative media coverage) and there is such a spectrum of homeschooling, unschooling/child led, and what I think of as non-schooling (that really radical unschooling sect). And sadly, many many negative stereotypes for all the spectrum.

 

I am just surprised that your friend is not required by her state to have him complete a portfolio or some sort of test to measure his progress prior to issuing a diploma - that is kinda scary. I think that a diploma infers a specific set of skills/knowledge base, and should have some basic requirments attached to it for HSers just as for PSers. He will not be equipt to succeed in college if that is his plan.

[Jean in Newcastle]

But Renee, you have boys who are delayed but are receiving appropriate intervention by you. You can see that in the progress they have made. No, you shouldn't have to give everyone around them a breakdown of their IQ scores or disabilities, but if someone mentions delays you could say that you are aware of it and are excited of how much progress they are making with the curriculum you are using. That would be the same kind of response that a mom with a special needs child in ps would give, wouldn't it?

[Renee in NC]

But Renee, you have boys who are delayed but are receiving appropriate intervention by you. You can see that in the progress they have made. No, you shouldn't have to give everyone around them a breakdown of their IQ scores or disabilities, but if someone mentions delays you could say that you are aware of it and are excited of how much progress they are making with the curriculum you are using. That would be the same kind of response that a mom with a special needs child in ps would give, wouldn't it?

 

Yes, and that is the response that I give many people, especially those I know. However, sometimes the comments I stated first are often given as a way of "passing the bean dip" so to speak. It isn't really anyone else's business. I don't question the parents of ps children who aren't exactly on grade level, why would I question homeschooling parents?

 

I know of a family that homeschools who had a child that had undiagnosed and unremediated LDs. These were great, caring parents whose children were unschooled for the most part. At 16, they would send them to cc to get their GED. It worked for them - even the severly LD child. They have wonderful children (and now adult children.) Who am I to say that they should have done it differently?

Edited July 30, 2010 by Renee in FL

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, and that is the response that I give many people, especially those I know.

 

Well, I guess I presumed incorrectly that it would only be the people you know well who would be asking to such detail. And even then maybe not so much asking as much as knowing your situation because you share things back and forth. Those you don't know well? Bean dip them!:D

[Nan in Mass]

Academic dishonesty... This issue is one that keeps me up at night, since we do things rather non-traditionally. I try to be very careful about this. It is one of the reasons I give things non-standard names. Although my children have covered some of the items in the high school biology textbook with the dragonfly on the cover (pretty standard, if these boards are anything to go by), they haven't produced a lot of academic output, and the input isn't entirely standard, either, since they have covered some things in the textbook plus things not in that textbook. What they have done is indeed some sort of biology, using the term in the broadest sense, but it isn't what colleges are going to assume they have covered if I put Biology 1 on their transcripts and therefore I feel that it would be dishonest for me to do so. The same with the label English 1. My children won't (probably) read standard high school literature like To Kill a Mockingbird and A Separate Peace, or do any sort of English grammar or vocabulary, so I think it is misleading to put English 1 on their transcripts, despite them doing a normal amount of work in English literature. Some things we have done aren't going on the transcript because I don't feel they were high school level. Usually they are something my hcildren are slow about, or they are something that nobody wanted to study further after their curiosity was satisfied by an elementary school level book. Another element is the non-academic learning. I ask my children if they make to put whatever it is that they are working on a formal course. If they say yes, they know that it must include an academic componant. It took me awhile to figure out what bothered me about putting things on their transcript that didn't contain any academics. Colleges are expecting the transcript to be a school transcript (not education or learning but school) and they are expecting that school includes some sort of reading and writing. The more alternative colleges have a more expanded definition, but they also, I noticed, want much more explanation and proof of what sort of skills and knowledge base the applicant has. Perhaps this is because they have more experience with non-schoolers? I don't know.

-Nan

[ShutterBug]

We do the natural led learning here - not quite hard core unschooling or hard core homeschooling - we follow DS's led and do what works (which most unschoolers say is what they do - I just personally have issues with the term unschooling and all the radical unschoolers - mainly due to the above sterotype)

 

I let DS work at his own pace but I am obsessed with where DS is and what he is learning. I plan out his learning - not with books, workbooks, tests, etc - but with experiences and learning opportunities. I find that he learns best that way. He excels this way - but you put a workbook in front of him and he freezes up. Whatever works! is my motto :D

 

 

 

I hope I don't offend you with this because I truly don't mean to...but there's a huge difference between doing this type of schooling with a 5 year old than with a high school kid who may like to go on to higher education someday without any gaps in their education, feeling unprepared or just plain behind.

 

To be fair, what you're doing with your son is as far from unschooling as using a boxed curriculum. You've set goals, purchased curriculums, made plans for what you'd like to cover, etc...all of which are strictly out of line with the unschooling philosophy and approach. What you're doing with your son sounds wonderful and looks very much like what many, many homeschooling families with younger children do :) . We did this type of child led learning when ds was littler too...IMO it's the best way for this age to learn and thrive.

 

However, at a certain point there were things he needed to learn that he wasn't and possibly would never be self motivated to learn and thus we needed to incorporate more structure into his routine.

 

I'm not against unschooling. I've seen it work wonderfully for families. The family referenced in the OP however sounds like it's just plain neglecting and sacrificing their children's academic needs and growth for the selfish reasons of the parents and that's just sad to me.

[justamouse]

Have you read

 

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Brilliance-Inspire-Parents-Educators/dp/0977836908/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280531473&sr=8-1

 

A Call to Brilliance?

 

I have to admit, I'm much more of a control freak and the schooling proposed in the book is much more free than I am brave for, but I wouldn't say it doesn't work. I would say that everyone climbs the mountain different ways.

[PinkInTheBlue]

In 10 years homeschooling I have never met a nonschooler. Matter fact I haven't met many unschoolers. Of the couple I have met, one had such wonderful plans and ideas she did with her daughters I was in awe. She gave me great ideas to stretch our learning.

 

I'm sure they are out there because you all have claimed to have met them. I can't fathom someone who would neglect their children's education.

[LisaKinVA]

This hits home for me...although not my home, one of my siblings who also homeschools.

 

The children are bright...in some cases very bright. We have children who are (or are about) the same age. I thought since the kiddos were here they could play "around the world" with flash cards. I don't have that many children, and thought they would have fun learning facts as part of a game. Silly me. My son was working on multiplication and division...and hers hadn't mastered addition and subtraction (this was our 4th graders). She simply said, well, he'll get it when he's ready.

 

Fast Forward... they are now worried about their oldest children (oldest is graduating high school having JUST completed Algebra I). My mom and dad both figure the children are at least 3 years behind the "average."

 

This isn't an un-schooling family. This is a family that is making excuses, and then "arranging" their educational philosophy to meet their reality. For example, it is no longer "important" for their children to have advanced math. Advanced math is anything beyond Algebra I. :tongue_smilie: Their 6th grade boy still doesn't know multiplication and division -- because they don't work on it. He is capable, and learns well when someone assists and guides him (like their grandparents), but there is no guidance or assistance for anyone over grade 2. Thankfully, the children can all read -- and they enjoy reading. But, what they have to read is woefully limited -- mostly young adult fiction, no classics, no literature studies, no biographies or histories... dismal.

 

This is the same family that were here for our oldest son's 6th birthday. They referred to my son as, "the one who can't read." My husband and I were like :001_huh: We kept our mouths shut, and then, when it was open present time, had our son read his birthday cards. Can't read my eye!

 

I know what the problem is...but I really can't say anything. My dad sure does, though. :lol: The parents are both college graduates, one has their masters degree.

 

It is hard to sit on the sidelines. It's extremely difficult when the families get together. We have mostly educational games.... that their children cannot play. And, I don't dare allow my children to get out their school books while they are here... I don't want her children to feel badly. In my mind, it's educational neglect. But there is nothing I could say, nothing I could do that would have them change their attitude towards education.

 

I will never understand. I would offer to help them, but I know such an offer would be rejected.

 

It is very, very frustrating for everyone -- and we're supposed to all converge on their home for Thanksgiving this year. Well, hopefully our younger brother's family will be there, and they can help buffer everyone.:D

[swellmomma]

The reason I bristle so much as these kind of discussions is because of my three boys. People who know them don't think they have any problems, but it is blatantly obvious (especially with my 9yo) that they are years behind academically. He has made progress - as a 6yo he functioned as a preschooler, so his frist grade level 3 years later is progress.

 

I have told people in the past that I wasn't worried about it, or that it would come in time, or something along those lines. Why? Because I can't go around giving everyone they come in contact with a breakdown of their particular IQ scores and disabilities, can I? So, there are probably plenty around who think I am neglecting my dc's education.

 

I hear you on this one. It is actually one reason I am thankful for the gov't oversight we do have in our province. I do find it a PITA at times BUT this past year when CPS got involved that registration with my school board protected my butt big time. others assume when they see my nearly 12 year old working through a 3rd grade math book etc that he is simply not being taught. I know this due to the comments I have heard from others from those assumptions to saying if he was in ps he would have an aide and be at grade level rather than behind etc. My school borad monitors with a couple visits a year to make sure we are progressing at his pace etc. It was because of the reports from my board that CPS had to drop the homeschooling issue. I do not explain to ever person that comments that the kids have various issues/disabilities. I tend to stick with saying they are working at their own level/pace and leave it at that.

 

WHile I know there are families out there that are academically negligent, I try hard not to point the finger and assume someone is kwim. I know I am already worrying about ds not reading right now and he is just turning 7 next month, I could not imagine doing nothing to ensure that a 7th grader was fully literate. I am all for families deciding what is best for their own kids, but literacy is a hard line for me. A child can step up and learn anything they want and take control of their own educations IF and ONLY IF they are literate imo. Beyond that if a family decides that any and all typical subjects (math, science, history etc) are not necessary I don't care, but do make sure your children can read and write enough to have a chance to make any other options for themselves and their futures.

 

We had a year from you know where this year. Life got in the way constantly this year. Between the kids disabilities and then all the outside issues at play I am amazed we have accomplished as much as we did. Others could easily look and declare I was academically negligent because they do not have the bigger picture of my family.

 

I guess the difference is that while those parents seem totally at peace with where their kids are academically I have nightmares about not doing right by my kids like someone else mentioned.

[Ottakee]

I have never met a homeschooler who did not care about his or her children's academics at all. I have met homeschoolers with different focuses and different goals, but none that just plain didn't care.

 

As for the 7th grader who can't read - even if the LDs were diagnosed it may be that the child couldn't read anyway. My sister could not read in 7th grade. My 9yo cannot read, despite diagnosis and intensive work. I don't know that I would make the jump from "can't read in 7th grade" to "parent doesn't care." I care very, very much and may *still* have a 7th grader who can't read. I sincerely hope not, but it is possible. Judgement from others about what they *think* is going on in my home won't make him read either.

 

See, you are working with your kids and for your kids to get them the BEST possible education to meet their needs. I have 3 special needs kiddos so I know where you are coming from.

 

On the flip side, we have a family at church that really cares very little about academics--esp. beyond the basics of 6-8th grades. Their oldest is almost 16, going into 9th grade (they held her back so they wouldn't have to have her in activities that their younger son wasn't old enough for) but they have NO plans to teach her algebra, highschool sciences, etc. The girl is capable of this level of learning and wants to go to college to be a vet tech--hence the need for math and sciences.

 

Others of us are trying to encourage the mom to do more academics with the child (state law says we must teach a comparable program to the ps) as well as encouraging the child to learn what she can on her own.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I have never seen this in person, either, though I guess we all know someone who knows someone. I can't say it bothers me a whole lot. If parents are unsupportive and won't help their kid figure it out, I'd be bother. If the children really are empowered, competent learners, then sure, let them read scifi. A liberal education can be gotten at any stage in life.

[shinyhappypeople]

In a spin of the other thread, are you ever bothered by other children being able to 'go on their own' with academics?

 

Yes, I know, I know, there is a whole philosophy of homeschooling that promotes natural, child-initiated learning. But I'm talking about the homeschoolers I know that just don't seem to give a flip about where their children are academically. I have a dear friend whose son just 'graduated' high school at home. This kid has never taken Algebra or Composition, doesn't read anything other than sci-fi, and spends hours on the computer with role playing games. The Mom didn't keep any sort of grades or transcripts at all. When we talk about it, she just shrugs off his lack of formal schooling and says "he's so smart, he'll figure it out." :001_huh: This same homeschooler also has a soon-to-be 7th grader who cannot read (I suspect undiagnosed learning disabilities). :blink:

 

I know I can sometimes go waaay out there with schedules and over-planning, but this really bothers me. Anyone else see stuff like this?

 

The big red emphasis is mine :)

 

First of all, we don't know what really happens behind closed doors. It may seem like the parents don't care, but that doesn't make it so. Honestly, that she's bothered to homeschool this long, suggests that she does care very deeply.

 

Despite having never completed a formal course in algebra, her son may have learned quite a bit of it through everyday life. We have no way of knowing that, so why not give your dear friend and her son the benefit of the doubt? If he loves to read he's probably a pretty decent writer, even without a formal composition course.

 

The bottom line is that none of us know her sons the way she does. We don't know their strengths and weaknesses or what they really know. We don't know whether or not she stays awake at night worrying about her 7th grader, but puts on a brave front when others are looking. We just don't know.

[naturegirl7]

I hope I don't offend you with this because I truly don't mean to...but there's a huge difference between doing this type of schooling with a 5 year old than with a high school kid who may like to go on to higher education someday without any gaps in their education, feeling unprepared or just plain behind.

 

To be fair, what you're doing with your son is as far from unschooling as using a boxed curriculum. You've set goals, purchased curriculums, made plans for what you'd like to cover, etc...all of which are strictly out of line with the unschooling philosophy and approach. What you're doing with your son sounds wonderful and looks very much like what many, many homeschooling families with younger children do :) . We did this type of child led learning when ds was littler too...IMO it's the best way for this age to learn and thrive.

 

However, at a certain point there were things he needed to learn that he wasn't and possibly would never be self motivated to learn and thus we needed to incorporate more structure into his routine.

 

I'm not against unschooling. I've seen it work wonderfully for families. The family referenced in the OP however sounds like it's just plain neglecting and sacrificing their children's academic needs and growth for the selfish reasons of the parents and that's just sad to me.

 

No offense taken - but i think it depends upon your definition of unschooling. I do not claim to be a radical unschooler. And I do like the term child led better. Most of the unschoolers I know are just not big fans of prepared curriculum or set objectives. But unschooling does not equal a lack of educational instruction. It is just a vastly different means of instruction than traditional homeschooling or public schooling. Originally, the term unschooling refered to parents who pulled their kids out of school to learn at home (homeschooling!!). We may not have a formalized and formula based curriculum but the kiddos are still learning alot at home.

 

Most unschoolers have absolutely no problem providing activities, books, instruction, etc in any area that our child has shown an interest in. It is NOT a sink or swim mentality towards education. Far from it!

 

I am all about furthering his knowledge as he is ready to expand it and grow - but I refuse to push anything on him. I will not have a schedule of subjects or even really any sort of scheduled "sit down school time" - we learn thru reading adn doing and talking and plan to continue to do just that.

 

My biggest objective is to have fun and keep his passion for learning stoked. I used the term curriculum loosely. It is simply the resources I plan to buy/use to feed his fire. The only curriulum I am planning on using is MUS, and really only adapting it to fit our needs - so far all I bought is the blocks. workbooks are a huge no-go around here. I also don't plan on tests or anything like that. I honestly don't plan on grading anything either. The other "curriculum" stuff i spoke of - well that is where his personal interests are, and most of those are books we already have in our house cuz he has begged us to buy them for him. Or activities we are already doing with him.

 

I don't believe that learning about something in detail or doing science experiments like building a volcano together or mummifying a chicken are going to interfere with the fact that I am "unschooling" - it is part of the whole unschooling process actually.

 

So as DS shows sparks of interest, we provide him with the means to turn that spark into a blazing fire. Trust me, Dh would love to study on his own, but DS won't allow it. He actually attacks the new texbooks and pulls the shrink wrap off like it is Xmas wrap and gets excited when daddy has a study group over. He is learning geography from the world atlas shower curtain *he* insisted we needed to have - sure I turned it backwards so he could read it in the shower. But do I teach it, nope. He is obsessed with ancient egypt - picking out books, searching discovery and science channel shows about egypt, pretending to mummify things ranging from spoons to his cabbage patch kid. I don't prompt any of those activities, but you can bet your booty that I capitalize on them when they happen and use them to epxand our discussions about egypt and mummies. He literally carries book of greek mythology with him everywhere he goes, and know more mythology facts than even I do (and I thought I knew alot!). He started reading at 2.5, not because we did any fancy early reader program with him or flashcards or anything like that - just cause he loved books and we read together ALL the time - and he just starting reading along and then indepedently. We have lots of guided play but no formalized instructional time, and it works well for us. But it isnt for everyone.

 

But to pigeon hole DS into a traditional K curriculum would be stifling and boring beyond belief for him. I like that with the child led learning, we pick up on his passions and use it as a spring board for learning. I think this can work beyond elementary age too. It is the fundamental basis for magnet schools; magnet schools just take it to a formalized, testable level.

 

But to take it back to the OP - I dont consider that style to be unschooling. The term unschooling originally applied to anyone who removed their child from a PS (hence the un-schooling) and decided to learn at home (which evolved into the term HS). It seems to me like this situation the Op describes is more on the radical or "non-schooling" end of the spectrum. If you arent willing to get creative and put in the time and effort to stimulate your child and prompt them to grow and learn, then you are NOT schooling them. Just as you can't expect a plant to grow without sunlight, you can't expect a child to grow and learn and thrive without access to stimulating opportunities.

[poolehall]

I have to wonder how some of these parents are getting away with this. I have now homeschooled in 2 different states (FL & MD).

 

In FL, the kids had to be reviewed by a certified teacher. We had a homeschool Mom in our area who provided this service (so she understood different methods/philosophies of homeschooling). The main thing was to prove that the child was progressing at his/her level.

 

In MD the requirements are even more rigid. There are core subjects that MUST be covered. You either go through an Umbrella or through the public school. We go through an umbrella. The lady who does our reviews would not sign off on a family that did not have everything in line legally. If a family was unschooling, that would be okay just as long as they documented their studies. We are a very easy-going umbrella (I helped start it) friendly to all styles/philosophies. The umbrella could be in serious trouble if it was caught letting people get away with doing...nothing. In MD you can't graduate HS without Algebra or Biology.

 

Since I'm new to this board and nobody knows anything about me...I homeschool two special needs kiddos. They both have Aspergers. They do well in some areas and struggle in others. Whenever anybody questions their struggles, I just tell them they are progressing at their own rate (which they are).

[Quiver0f10]

Yes--It really bothers me when other parents are calling their 12yo's lack of ability to read "developmental."

 

But it's really none of my business, so I don't say a word.

 

ETA: I don't say a word IRL; on here I say something with great frequency.

 

Please don't be so quick to judge. I have an almost 11 yo that reads on a second/third grade level and we work very hard at reading using one of the best programs available. For some kids it is developmental.

[meet me in paris]

I don't have a problem with the various styles of homeschooling.

 

I do have a LOT of a problem with do-nothingness at any level. The majority of homeschoolers I've met in the last many years have been do-nothing homeschoolers. Mostly these are homeschoolers for whom life gets in the way ALL.THE.TIME. A few eased into do-nothingness years ago and then try to justify it as a style. These teens have been VERY difficult to deal with ruining groups and classes.

:iagree:

I've had the same experience... and it's frustrating to be the facilitator in that group! Then my kids say, "why do I have to ___? THEY don't have to ___." grrrrr.

[kalanamak]

I have only seen it twice and yes, it bothers me a lot.

 

*I'm not talking about unschoolers, these people were non-schoolers.

 

The two I met were women with mental problems, IMO, and clearly taking the homeschooling stance so they could avoid the difficulties and scrutiny of sending their kids to ps. One of them expressed relief the truant officer was off her back. I would say there was anxiety/agoraphobia issues, and having the kids at home made them feel "safer". Interestingly, both lived on junk food.

[Sara R]

Despite having never completed a formal course in algebra, her son may have learned quite a bit of it through everyday life.

 

How do you do that? Do you know anyone who has successfully picked up algebra just through magically absorbing the x's and y's in their environment? Maybe one can pick up 3rd grade level fractions that way, but not algebra.