s/o of building a church building thread

[Mynyel]

So...in the course of the thread it got me wondering.

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor? Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation to help but you never hear the church talk about where they are sacrificing to help make it happen as well.

 

Whenever a lot of money (as in the case of building a building) is involved things can get really sticky.

 

So thoughts?

[Mama Anna]

(Gently) Biblically (as far as I can tell), the "church" equals the members - the Body of Christ. So while the leadership of the church might be asking other members to give sacrificially (in my personal experience, this has happened when the people in leadership are also giving sacrificially), it's not the same as an organization that is appealing to it's constituents for money. At least, it shouldn't be.

 

A church isn't a building. It's not a set of pastors/ministers, and administration. It's a part of the Body of Christ made up of individual believers.

 

Not that it happens that way all the time IRL. :001_smile:

 

Just my 2 cents!

 

Mama Anna

 

ETA: I guess what I'm trying to say is that the church can't really give sacrificially apart from it's members doing so because it doesn't exist apart from them. Clear as mud?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Mama Anna

[Parrothead]

Most churches don't have savings or if they do it is for super emergencies like natural disaster. And in the way of things are today most churches have to pay people for services that they could have expected as volunteers just 10 years ago. Not very many people want to volunteer their time anymore.

 

I know our parish has to pay the organist when he plays. We pay a bookkeeper and a secretary. We pay a groundskeeper/janitor. I'm not sure if our faith formation director gets paid or not. In some parishes this is a paid position.

 

Our weekly budget for everything but fuel oil (heat for 7-8 months of the year) is about $3000.00. Some weeks we make that amount. Most weeks we are only bringing in about $2500.00. We are pretty much in a deficit most of the time. Our fuel oil money comes from a second collection during the winter.

 

Everything comes out of that weekly collection. Power, water and insurance for the church, parish hall and rectory. Salaries need to be paid to a variety of people. Cemetery upkeep needs funding. I know there are some things I'm forgetting.

 

So, no a new building (which I'm told we will be needing soon) can't be paid for from the weekly collection.

 

Pastors and ministers need to make a full time salary. They have families to feed, clothe and educate. If there is no parsonage for them to live in they need to house those families. Your local parish priest will make considerable less but most of his needs are seen by the church, and of course there is (usually) no family to care for.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Parrothead

[dansamy]

Well, pastors do need to make a salary. Pastors do more than just preach/teach on Sundays/Wednesdays. They visit the sick. They counsel people. They also participate in many of the church's boards/councils, ensuring the church is properly run, its finances handled, its Sunday School staffed and prepared, its nursery staffed (a vital service if your church hopes to retain young couples!), its bills all paid so that the lights are on and the water running. They also participate in many of the outreach programs that a church runs. Prison ministry, homeless ministry, Spanish ministry, etc. The pastor is a busy man, and most of them make far less than they earn. That's not to say there aren't charlatans out there whose only goal is to fleece the flock. There are.

[Aubrey]

Dh is in seminary, & honestly, it's ideas like these that make me wish he wasn't--I spent nearly 10 yrs arguing against his going in the first place.

 

Let me start w/ the current issue in our church: a family w/ 5 dc keeps coming to church w/ lice. When they get sent home, they leave the nursery & go to other parts of the building; they don't go home.

 

Whose job is it to address this issue? The mom yelled at the lady who found the lice in the nursery. She yelled at the VOLUNTEER nursery coordinator. The person on top of all this, in charge of the children's ministry is a volunteer working FT at another job. I'd guess she easily puts in 40 hrs/wk at church.

 

I think it's unfair for volunteers to be *forced* to deal w/ situations like this. But the nursery worker has taken the problem to the nursery coordinator, who's gone to the children's minister who's said SS teachers will take care of it. SS teachers didn't agree to this, but worse? They weren't told it was expected. The result? Chaos & parents talking about leaving the church.

 

Would you volunteer for that kind of work on top of everything else you do?

 

As far as pastors' salaries...the statistics of burnout & divorce, imo, are directly related to the overwork, underpay, & burnout in a field where so many people ask why they need to be paid at all.

 

I wish pastors would just start saying no. I wish they'd all get together & quit & just be parishioners & volunteer that much, no more, no less. If it works, GREAT. If not, not my problem.

[Aubrey]

Ok, I just started reading the church building thread, & I think that's a totally separate issue from secretaries' & pastors' salaries.

 

Philosophically, I'm a home-churcher at heart, & I have a hard time w/ buildings. I've come to appreciate them, but not to the point that I'd be "sacrificially" helping to build one. There are plenty around already.

 

(Now, as a side note, I do believe there was a time when church architecture itself was a form of worship. The current church building fund things don't seem to fall into that category, though, & such should be pursued when there's money for it, not when the economy is such a mess.)

[Heather in Neverland]

My grandfather and two of my uncles are pastors. They all have full time jobs and get a very, very small salary that is really more of a love offering once a month. All the members pitch in...with playing the organ, with cleaning the church, with secretarial and book keeping duties, etc. I think that is how it should be. If the "people" are the "church" which I wholeheartedly believe, then they should pitch in and help to keep the building running. JMHO.

[Aubrey]

My grandfather and two of my uncles are pastors. They all have full time jobs and get a very, very small salary that is really more of a love offering once a month. All the members pitch in...with playing the organ, with cleaning the church, with secretarial and book keeping duties, etc. I think that is how it should be. If the "people" are the "church" which I wholeheartedly believe, then they should pitch in and help to keep the building running. JMHO.

 

:iagree: As long as too much isn't expected of any one member. W/ regard to pastors' salaries...I think there's a range of acceptable. I love the idea of everybody pitching in & there being no hierarchy, no salary, etc. BUT historically, it seems like it's worked better when those things were in place, & I remember that Paul said "the workman is worth his wages."

[Jennifer in MI]

My dh is the priest at a large Episcopal Church in downtown Detroit. He is the only priest on staff and works very long hours. Yes. Our church does need him full time and they pay him well to do it. And, yes. We give sacrificially as a family back to the church - both with our time and money.

 

Our church publishes its annual budget so everyone can see exactly where the money is going. I am always amazed at how much it costs to maintain our 150 year old building. Insurance, electricity, gas, etc. It all adds up. We also have a parttime volunteer secretary and a volunteer treasurer. We have a "janitor" who lives in the building free in return for clean up work (shoveling, raking, mowing, etc) throughout the year. We have a contractor who volunteers his services when things break down. We depend very much on volunteers.

 

Our church also donates a LOT of money to local charities. We support an Anglican diocese and seminary in Malawi. Much of our members' giving goes to these things.

 

A few years ago we had to ask the church members for extra giving. There was about $150,000 worth of work that needed to be done on the building. There were no volunteers qualified to do the work. So, technically, this was a building fund. It needed a new roof, stone work, and other things. The building is a vital part of our ministry in Detroit. It's in a prominent location and people know it because of that. We must maintain it.

[lionfamily1999]

All the churches I've ever been a member of have a budget and their congregants get a copy. The church I'm in at present posts how much was given the last Sunday and how any of it has been spent since then. They do not keep a savings account. They trust God to continue funding our body and they make sure that all that comes in goes out with the blessings of the body. Big projects, like building a church, would probably prompt lots of fundraisers and a special side account.

[T'smom]

So...in the course of the thread it got me wondering.

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor? Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation to help but you never hear the church talk about where they are sacrificing to help make it happen as well.

 

Whenever a lot of money (as in the case of building a building) is involved things can get really sticky.

 

So thoughts?

 

Wow. Just wow. What does your husband do? Shouldn't he just do it for free? I'm a preacher's kid. The vast, vast, vast majority of pastors do NOT make piles of money. They give and give and give of themselves. They work the hours of an on-call physician- but they certainly don't get paid like one. We were in a tough financial position recently (we had to spend 13,000 to SELL our house- not optional- my dh had gotten a new job in another state and the house had already been on the market for 1 1/2 years) Anyway- my parents wanted to help (loan) us money, but they couldn't- because not only do they tithe, but basically give every extra cent to the church. No, sorry, not "extra" cent- they are giving sacrificially- very, very sacrificially for people who do nothing but complain. Yes, I know they're doing it for Christ- not just the people who do nothing but complain- but I'm not as spiritually mature and I just get irritated.

[gpsings]

Our church is very transparent about where the money goes, and we are welcome to come in and look at the books at any time.

In our case, we were renting a space in an office building to meet for nearly 6 years, while saving to build. During the building process, some changes needed to be made, and the economy took a dump (taking out some tithe money with it) and the banks decided to give the church a raw deal for the changes being made. (new lending procedures, etc.) and the builders decided they wanted everything up front, since they were also falling victim to bad economy in the area, and the landlord at the office building decided to hold us responsible for the entire penalty of breaking the lease, even though we only left 2 months early. (the penalty was 60,000.00!) so we found ourselves behind by quite a bit. Our pastor came to us in tears in a private meeting with members, and showed us everything. We had to come up with money quick, and I love my pastor, love my church, and I don't think they did anything to put themselves in this position. So I committed a portion of my grocery budget. I would give more if I could think of where to get it... point is, I think it's different for many churches. It's not always to 'expand' or add new sound equipment, etc. Sometimes it's just the economy or circumstances.

[Harriet Vane]

So...in the course of the thread it got me wondering.

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

In most churches the donations are given generously by a very small percentage of the congregation, and not so generously by all the rest. What is collected is not making the church rich--often it is just enough to cover the basics. Most churches rely on extra Christmas donations to make their yearly budget.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

Those donations often just cover the normal things and the salaries of the paid staff. The donations also cover Sunday School curriculum and supplies--but it's usually not as much as one would like to have available.

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor?

Yes, they need to earn a salary, because they are working long hours and are usually vastly underpaid for the amount they do. I have numerous friends who are in full-time ministry, and none of them are making much money. And how do you expect them to feed and clothe their families??? If you look in the Old Testament, there was provision for the Levites to be taken care of by the Israelite nation in recognition of the service they render to the Lord.

 

Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

Yes, people need to be paid for their full or part time jobs. If they choose to volunteer some hours as a gift (like teaching Sunday School), then that is their gift. But the JOB of running the church does need to be paid, because it is a lot of hours and people do need to feed their families. On the other hand, I have no issues with people choosing to give of their time, and would like to see more volunteerism at church.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation to help but you never hear the church talk about where they are sacrificing to help make it happen as well.

On the contrary, the church's budget is often so tight that they have been sacrificing all along, and there is nothing left to sacrifice. And frankly, most pastors do not earn enough for the hours they work--it's terribly unfair to ask them to sacrifice even more than they already do.

 

Whenever a lot of money (as in the case of building a building) is involved things can get really sticky.

 

So thoughts?

 

Thoughts above.

[milovany]

(Now, as a side note, I do believe there was a time when church architecture itself was a form of worship. The current church building fund things don't seem to fall into that category, though, & such should be pursued when there's money for it, not when the economy is such a mess.)

 

:iagree:

 

<thread derailment>

 

You still see this in some parts of the Christian world (even here in America). The first time I walked into Holy Cross Orthodox Church in the next town over, I felt like I was in heaven. It was a combination of the architecture, singing, incense, candles, vestments, congregation and more. But the architecture was a huge part of it.

 

</thread derailment>

[lionfamily1999]

Ok, I just started reading the church building thread, & I think that's a totally separate issue from secretaries' & pastors' salaries.

 

Philosophically, I'm a home-churcher at heart, & I have a hard time w/ buildings. I've come to appreciate them, but not to the point that I'd be "sacrificially" helping to build one. There are plenty around already.

 

(Now, as a side note, I do believe there was a time when church architecture itself was a form of worship. The current church building fund things don't seem to fall into that category, though, & such should be pursued when there's money for it, not when the economy is such a mess.)

:lol: Not making it a point to argue with you, I promise!

 

Our church has actually started a TON of building and grounds projects recently, BECAUSE the economy is such a mess. They pay lots of people to do LOTS of menial tasks (that never needed to be done before), because there are so many people that need to be paid. It's really neat, our offering rates are going through the roof (and believe me, we're all feeling the pinch), but our church is extatic to do these projects now and help so many people in our community.

[OnTheBrink]

So...in the course of the thread it got me wondering.

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor? Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation to help but you never hear the church talk about where they are sacrificing to help make it happen as well.

 

Whenever a lot of money (as in the case of building a building) is involved things can get really sticky.

 

So thoughts?

 

How do you propose pastors, secretaries, janitors feed their families? Pay their bills? Own a home? Pastorship is a full-time job. Expecting people to shepherd a church for nothing is asking a bit much, don't you think?

 

Church budgets vary, but I do know that money donated for a specific cause has to go for that cause. If someone donates $1M to the "new van fund" legally, that money can not be used for a building, or flowers, or to help send kids to camp. It has to be used for a new van (or a fleet of them! LOL). My point is, in most churches (at least independent ones) the pastors or elders go before their congregations with big projects before starting to ask for money for them. So, the congregation knows the project is coming and can prepare to give to it accordingly.

 

I'm agast at the idea that a pastor and administrative staff of a church should be expected to work without compensation.

[KristenS]

It's like asking teachers to work without pay ... oh wait, they practically DO work without pay, what with all the overtime they put in, and supplies they buy for the classroom, the lunches they get for kids who forgot, etc....

 

I don't know ANY pastor who's paid in proportion to the work he puts forth! (Maybe in some richer communities, perhaps?) I know most of ours HAVE given sacrificially out of their earnings when building programs come around. Sometimes they choose not to advertise just how much they give; occasionally one will make a point of sharing what he's contributing so the congregation knows that we're all in this together.

 

And if we started paying pastor's WIVES what they deserve as part of their inherited job (and pastor's husbands, these days, I guess) ... gosh, we'd never be able to afford it!

 

If *I* put in full-time hours at a job, and would otherwise be needing that time to work a job to provide for my own family's needs ... I would expect a salary. It's only fair. Obviously, as a homeschooling SAHM, I don't get a salary. We're blessed that my dh earns enough to cover our needs. So I do volunteer my time in certain jobs. But there have also been seasons where the pay was needed ... and I was in positions that did get paid. (Part time ones, like helping at the church preschool.) And still a lot of my earnings went back into the ministry I was trying to do.

 

ETA: I'm also on a few church committees, and have seen the budget (what I understand of it) ... it's made available to everyone, actually. We do not have savings. We do our best to operate debt-free, and set aside for the predictable crises (our air-conditioner, for one) ... but when certain things come up, like our roof leaking and needing major repairs, or the new wheelchair ramp we just had added on (which was significant architectural work for the building we've got ... side of a mountain, among other issues) ... those cost. People have to give a bit more to make it happen. I wasn't able to contribute to some of it with money, but I and another woman were able to point out to the trustees that we'd recently had storm damage and to check with the insurance company ... so in that sense we did contribute, because it turns out our insurance was willing to pay a LOT towards the roof work. The company that did the work on our new entrance for the wheelchair access did so at what I think were significant discounts, to help us out. One lady managed to find a deal on a much-needed new church van, since our old bus and van had died ... she was able to trade in one, ask a few favors for deals, and get a new van for basically what we would've had to pay to replace the engine of one of the old ones ... what people can't put in with money, they put in with time. And others made up the rest with contributions.

Edited June 17, 2010 by KristenS

[Mejane]

I absolutely think pastors deserve a full-time salary. Other staff should be paid for the hours they put in if they are not volunteer positions. I also realize all buildings need repair and upkeep. My specific problem with relation to the other thread is in asking parishoners to fund a new building at a time when the economy is in a shambles and many people can barely make ends meet.

[KrissiK]

Pastors definitely deserve their salary - full time. They are on-call 24/7. They live their lives in a fishbowl and take a ton of flack. Our former pastor got so much grief for the stupidest things - not enough hymns on Sunday morning, wanting to move the communion table. If his sons weren't perfect angels (which they weren't) he'd get flack for that. He'd get flack for not visiting so and so every time they were in the hospital. And this man has a wife and 3 sons at home to care for, too.

 

Regarding the building fund - our church budget is published every year and every penny is accounted for. It's expensive to run a church, and our building is pretty old, so there are always repairs. I think it's appropriate for a church to have campaigns if they want to do things above and beyond.

[Aubrey]

:lol: Not making it a point to argue with you, I promise!

 

Our church has actually started a TON of building and grounds projects recently, BECAUSE the economy is such a mess. They pay lots of people to do LOTS of menial tasks (that never needed to be done before), because there are so many people that need to be paid. It's really neat, our offering rates are going through the roof (and believe me, we're all feeling the pinch), but our church is extatic to do these projects now and help so many people in our community.

 

That sounds wonderful, & for a church that can do it, I think this is a brilliant response to people's financial suffering. I just don't think it's nice to ask people who have just lost their jobs, taken huge pay cuts, etc. to give MORE for a *building.*

 

I'm not against all buildings all the time. Just insensitivity.

 

I'm even in favor of giving, lol--I know you can't tell it by my posts. There just seems to be...well, problems w/ the whole topic. I guess that's true w/ anything, though.

 

The combination of emotional, "sacrificial" giving & the role of a wife (submission, obedience) in one thread was too much for me. Eek!

[Aubrey]

Let me start w/ the current issue in our church: a family w/ 5 dc keeps coming to church w/ lice. When they get sent home, they leave the nursery & go to other parts of the building; they don't go home.

 

Whose job is it to address this issue? The mom yelled at the lady who found the lice in the nursery. She yelled at the VOLUNTEER nursery coordinator. The person on top of all this, in charge of the children's ministry is a volunteer working FT at another job. I'd guess she easily puts in 40 hrs/wk at church.

 

I think it's unfair for volunteers to be *forced* to deal w/ situations like this. But the nursery worker has taken the problem to the nursery coordinator, who's gone to the children's minister who's said SS teachers will take care of it. SS teachers didn't agree to this, but worse? They weren't told it was expected. The result? Chaos & parents talking about leaving the church.

 

I just wanted to add that this church that can't afford to pay anybody to plan, facilitate, organize children's stuff just bought several thousand dollars' worth of new hymnals, new pew Bibles, AND overhead screens for lyrics to be posted.

 

Putting building funds & hymnals before people makes me Really Unfriendly.

[Mejane]

Putting building funds & hymnals before people makes me Really Unfriendly.

 

That and people not using their brain, apparently. :D

[Jennifer in MI]

I just wanted to add that this church that can't afford to pay anybody to plan, facilitate, organize children's stuff just bought several thousand dollars' worth of new hymnals, new pew Bibles, AND overhead screens for lyrics to be posted.

 

Putting building funds & hymnals before people makes me Really Unfriendly.

 

Is it possible that a donor gave money specifically for that purpose? We have people in our church who give to specific things rather than the general fund. So, it could look, on the outside, like we're spending money on things that we don't really need right now. (Someone left funding in their will recently for updating the lighting in our church. Right now, that looks like a really silly thing to be doing! But, it was a specified gift.)

 

Of course, I know even churches make bad decisions on how to spend money. Just thought I'd throw that out there . . .

[fairfarmhand]

I think what we are dealing with here (at least in regard to a pastor's salary) is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a pastor's duties are. As a member of a congregation who might attend a few services a week, one would have no understanding of what is involved in pastoring a church. Many are under the impression that the pastor "only" works those few hours a week that he is in the pulpit and the rest of the time he is home on the couch.

 

I'm a pastor's kid. In the course of a week a pastor might:

 

have several counseling sessions, each one lasting from 2-3 hours.

deal with disgruntled church members in order to avoid church splits (this can take hours out of a day and the emotional toll is horrible)

shop for supplies for the church

organize holiday dinners if the church does not have a committee for such things

clean parts of the building and maintain them

call the exterminator to get rid of the critters in the building

go to the hospital almost every night of the week to pray for those anticipating surgery, counsel those on their deathbeds, etc.

preside over weddings and funerals

run by the nursing home to keep those company whose families don't care enough to come by

preside over chapel and worship services at the nursing home

get the church van in for maintenance so it doesn't break down en route

prepare for (many times) three sermons. (my father put in roughly 6 hours of study per sermon! not to mention time spent in prayer)

pray for each family in the congregation and many people not in his congregation

visit people who are unchurched and invite them to services

visit people of the church who are not attending much any more to let them know they are missed

 

I could go on and on. A pastor's duties are much much more than just speaking a few times a week. They are definitely due pay for their duties; they will be much more effective as a pastor if they don't have to worry about holding another job to pay the bills while they are trying to pastor/

[Aubrey]

Is it possible that a donor gave money specifically for that purpose? We have people in our church who give to specific things rather than the general fund. So, it could look, on the outside, like we're spending money on things that we don't really need right now. (Someone left funding in their will recently for updating the lighting in our church. Right now, that looks like a really silly thing to be doing! But, it was a specified gift.)

 

Of course, I know even churches make bad decisions on how to spend money. Just thought I'd throw that out there . . .

 

Not that exactly. I was at the meeting...it was a special fund, but the terms of use were wide enough that new hymnals should never have been considered. The church is in financial trouble, & they've got the idea that "investing" in appearances, i.e., new flowers out front & hymnals in the pews, will attract new members.

 

I pointed out that people will more likely be influenced by the quality of care their dc receive, but it was my first church meeting, & formerly friendly people got wolf-eyed at me, & I hushed.

[lionfamily1999]

That sounds wonderful, & for a church that can do it, I think this is a brilliant response to people's financial suffering. I just don't think it's nice to ask people who have just lost their jobs, taken huge pay cuts, etc. to give MORE for a *building.*

 

I'm not against all buildings all the time. Just insensitivity.

 

I'm even in favor of giving, lol--I know you can't tell it by my posts. There just seems to be...well, problems w/ the whole topic. I guess that's true w/ anything, though.

 

The combination of emotional, "sacrificial" giving & the role of a wife (submission, obedience) in one thread was too much for me. Eek!

You know, we're not Mr. & Mrs. Rockefeller by any stretch of the imagination, but I find myself giving and giving and giving to this church and it's like our income is completely uneffected. The body really is there for each other and our community. I don't know how, bringing in around 1000 a week they can afford to do all that do (free rides to doctor appointments, free home improvements, free meals, free food, bill paying, &tc). I just wish they had a board for hours given, because I know it's much more of the time being given than the money that ends up making everything go go go.

 

I do wish more churches would work like this. Seeing a new building project as an opportunity to help those in the community that've lost jobs, for instance.

[Ellie]

Well, so, who else except the members of that church is responsible for the finances? Why wouldn't the members be asked to donate more?

 

Why shouldn't people who work full time be paid for that work? It doesn't matter that the work is done in a church building; it is still work.

 

I'm totally perplexed by your questions. They make no sense to me at all.

[MamaSheep]

So...in the course of the thread it got me wondering.

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor? Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation to help but you never hear the church talk about where they are sacrificing to help make it happen as well.

 

Whenever a lot of money (as in the case of building a building) is involved things can get really sticky.

 

So thoughts?

 

Um. I almost hesitate to share my thoughts here. But here goes.

 

In our church none of the local church "staff" is paid. The idea of paying for such church service seems very odd to me. But then, the idea of expecting one person, or a very small group of people, to do all the "work" that is needed in a church is also very odd to me. In our church pretty much everyone pitches in, in whatever way is asked of them, from delivering messages in worship services, to teaching classes, to cleaning the church, to visiting church members. If we all do a little, it's not burdensome on anyone. This applies to leadership positions as well. Almost all the men in the church are ordained, but they also maintain a regular full-time job elsewhere that supports their families. And most of the time any given person will serve in any given position for a relatively short period time--maybe a few months, maybe a few years, whatever--and then they'll do something else for a while, and someone else will take up that position. It helps keep people from getting too burned out. Our current bishop has some kind of herbal supplement business, the one before that was a veterinarian, I think the one we had before that was a teacher, one was a locksmith, one worked for the phone company, one was a doctor. This is how all our local congregations work, worldwide. The congregations are kept relatively small and manageable, and if they grow too large they're split into two congregations with two separate leadership structures. It works out well, IMO.

 

There is no weekly collection at our church services. We are asked to tithe, but the contributions are made privately. There are also other specific funds we can contribute to, knowing that the money we designate to funds other than the general tithing fund will be used in the way designated for that fund. For example, there's a "fast offering" fund. Traditionally, members of the church refrain from food and drink for two meals on the first Sunday of every month, and contribute (at least) the amount of money they otherwise would have spent on food for those meals to the fast offering fund. The money collected in that fund is used to help those in the local congregation who are experiencing financial difficulty. There is also a humanitarian fund which is used to provide things like disaster relief, clean water, shipments of food, educational materials, medical supplies, etc. in the community and all over the world. There's a mission fund, and a building fund, and I don't remember what all. Anyway, tithing is used for general church expenses, and then you can make contributions to these other funds as desired.

 

At any rate, that's a little about how it works for us. Other churches definitely do things differently, and I can see why someone whose full-time employment is pastoring definitely needs to get paid so he can feed, clothe, and house his family. But yes, "hiring" someone to preach and serve in the church does seem rather foreign to me.

[redheadeddaughter]

I don't have a problem with our tithe monies going towards the pastor and his family. I think in many cases, they are paid too little. The salary should keep pace with the cost of living, and it usually doesn't.

 

I do have a problem with a church asking its congregation for more "sacrificial" monies in this economy. If my pastor or church in any way made my husband feel pressured to give our savings away to build a church (or send a mission group or...) I would want to leave that church. Really. I think giving like this should not be coerced... there are many who will and do give for projects like this. I don't think families living month to month (and living frugally) should feel they aren't doing enough by tithing 10% or whatever their regular weekly contribution is. If my pastor asked my husband for this I'd be on the phone giving him an earful (and I never call leadership at church to complain about anything). That is overstepping.

 

A building project can wait until the economy has improved... imo.

[ScoutTN]

Seems an odd question to me. Would you expect you DH to work 60 hours a week in a very stressful job that he had to go to grad school to be able to do for nothing?

 

Our church is 2000+ members and the pastors (and other staff members - I used to be one of them!) work very hard and very long hours to minister to all the needs. Also the pastors have advanced degrees - all have a M Div. and several have PhDs or MAs in theology or counseling. All church staff deserve to be paid a reasonable, not an exorbitant, wage. As a large church we can provide ministries that smaller churches can't. Vice -versa is also true, of course. We made a $4.2 million budget last year without any appeals for money and our congregation ranges widely on the socio-economic scale.

The church finances are always open for anyone to see and the budget is public info. Maintaining a large staff and buildings does add to administrative/overhead costs, but it enables us to do things too. We house a Christian school and hundreds of other groups/meetings, from Bible studies to homeschool groups to Young Life to Meals on Wheels. Our church provides $$$ for people who are in need, both in our church and in the community. Being large does not make the organic, grassroots level of being and living go away. It just isn't always as obvious when there is more structure/organization.

 

 

The Bible clearly says that people should be paid for their work and that pastors are not an exception to this.

 

If all church members tithed, money would not be an issue.

 

I agree that Architecture does preach! We just built a $20 million neo-gothic cathedral sanctuary, out of stone, on top of a hill. It was started before the economy collapsed - in the current scenario we might have delayed building, but we had no space...

Anyway in this age of postmodernism and church-as-entertainment, I think many people long to know that there is Truth which endures throughout the ages. And we are not afraid to say so.

[rookie]

My issue is not with pastor's salaries, it is with churches creating "needs." I have seen it with our local churches. We have a big beautiful church locally. Lots of people attending. Lots of money spent on audio-visual equipment, sound equipment, stage sets, arts&craft supplies, brochures, web design, on and on. All of it gets purchased for the big beautiful church and then a committee decides we need a bigger, more beautiful church. Sermons are preached about giving sacrificially. Congregants pledge more. The economy tanks but the church has already committeed to the bigger building. On and on.

 

WHY?

 

Christ did not use any of this stuff. Christ did not use a building. Christ did not use a microphone, audio-visual, skits, arts&crafts, a nursery,

etc. He had a staff of twelve and they fished for a living.

 

All of these things are created "needs" and IMO do not require my sacrificial giving AT ALL.

 

Christ calls us to give sacrificially to the needs of other people - his sheep, his children .... not a building.

 

What if churches met in a park or by the beach (like Christ did) for a quick service and then ate a potluck meal together and then made a collection to cover the pastor's time and then went out and worked on actually helping the poor and downtrodden? INSTEAD of showing up at a building, following the routine, hearing about giving money for more church activities, and then heading out with their lives.

 

I am sorry. I know that a lot of Christians are vested in their church buildings, church equipment, church activities, etc. I just cannot see the Christ of the New Testament looking at that and saying, "Yes. Exactly. This is what I was aiming for. If only I could have had a big beautiful building, many, many more would have been saved. Well Done." OR "Okay folks, now that I have preached and fed you fish, I want to talk to you about a big piece of land and blueprints for a big new building I want you to spend your money and time on for my glory. I know that it will divert time and money from helping your fellow man, but, golly, I'm worth it."

 

 

I could go on and on myself but I figure I am already in for some WTM-flaming!

[AnitaMcC]

I have no problem paying all the people who run a church full time. Wow that is a huge job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have no problem about a need to ask for more money to fix or upgrade the building, add on to the building, etc.

 

I do have a problem where a church wants $300 for religious education for each child each year and this is with all volunteers who do not get paid (except the RE coordinator who gets paid full time salary).

 

I do have a problem where the church wants to add on to the building just to add on or the add on is very ornate and no thought of being frugal where possible. I do not feel the need to worship in a building that is so fancy that I am afraid to even breathe. Yes it is beautiful, but then again I am not there to admire the building. A nice warm in winter, cool in summer, dry building with semi-comfortable pews is all I really need.

 

I do have a problem when the church looks at you and say your not tithing enough for your income. Sorry 15% tithing is just way too much for some families. I don't know many families who can afford to tithe 5% of their income let alone 15%.

Edited June 17, 2010 by AnitaMcC

[ThatCyndiGirl]

My issue is not with pastor's salaries, it is with churches creating "needs." I have seen it with our local churches. We have a big beautiful church locally. Lots of people attending. Lots of money spent on audio-visual equipment, sound equipment, stage sets, arts&craft supplies, brochures, web design, on and on. All of it gets purchased for the big beautiful church and then a committee decides we need a bigger, more beautiful church. Sermons are preached about giving sacrificially. Congregants pledge more. The economy tanks but the church has already committeed to the bigger building. On and on.

 

WHY?

 

Christ did not use any of this stuff. Christ did not use a building. Christ did not use a microphone, audio-visual, skits, arts&crafts, a nursery,

etc. He had a staff of twelve and they fished for a living.

 

All of these things are created "needs" and IMO do not require my sacrificial giving AT ALL.

 

Christ calls us to give sacrificially to the needs of other people - his sheep, his children .... not a building.

 

What if churches met in a park or by the beach (like Christ did) for a quick service and then ate a potluck meal together and then made a collection to cover the pastor's time and then went out and worked on actually helping the poor and downtrodden? INSTEAD of showing up at a building, following the routine, hearing about giving money for more church activities, and then heading out with their lives.

 

I am sorry. I know that a lot of Christians are vested in their church buildings, church equipment, church activities, etc. I just cannot see the Christ of the New Testament looking at that and saying, "Yes. Exactly. This is what I was aiming for. If only I could have had a big beautiful building, many, many more would have been saved. Well Done." OR "Okay folks, now that I have preached and fed you fish, I want to talk to you about a big piece of land and blueprints for a big new building I want you to spend your money and time on for my glory. I know that it will divert time and money from helping your fellow man, but, golly, I'm worth it."

 

 

I could go on and on myself but I figure I am already in for some WTM-flaming!

 

 

 

:iagree: I grew up in a cult that has bloomed into these horrible mega-churches. For YEARS AND YEARS I said,"You don't need millions of dollars of "stuff" to tell people about Jesus.....if, indeed that is your actual goal."

 

I'm shocked that more christians are not APALLED at the level of greed and corruption here. I am NOT talking about pastors who are barely paid and cleaning their own churches. I am talking about the horrible "prosperity gospel preachers" who teach their "flock" that Jesus was wealthy and Jesus wants THEM to be wealthy, too. It is one of the many reasons I left the church and have never looked back.

 

WHY ARE MORE PEOPLE NOT JUST OUTRAGED AT THE FLEECING OF THE FLOCK?! (Joyce Meyers and her private jet, Benny Hinn and his fleet of fancy cars and HIS private jet, etc. There are MANY more examples. Again, NOT talking about your average pastor, but the ones who ARE clearly out to make lots of money off the backs of the working poor/middle class.)

Edited June 17, 2010 by ThatCyndiGirl

[dansamy]

:iagree:

WHY ARE MORE PEOPLE NOT JUST OUTRAGED AT THE FLEECING OF THE FLOCK?! (Joyce Meyers and her private jet, Benny Hinn and his fleet of fancy cars and HIS private jet, etc. There are MANY more examples. Again, NOT talking about your average pastor, but the ones who ARE clearly out to make lots of money off the backs of the working poor/middle class.)

 

*cough* Joel Osteen *cough*

 

I certainly believe that God blesses the cheerful giver, and that, at times, a sacrifice is certainly appropriate. But if I can't feed my children, then I certainly can't give more of my income to the church. Now, if I'm well off enough that I can feed my children rice and beans and pasta for a week and give that to the church instead, so be it. But, if the cupboards are bare, then our family is one of the ones that needs the church's help. And not one of the ones in a position to help the church.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: I grew up in a cult that has bloomed into these horrible mega-churches. For YEARS AND YEARS I said,"You don't need millions of dollars of "stuff" to tell people about Jesus.....if, indeed that is your actual goal."

 

I'm shocked that more christians are not APALLED at the level of greed and corruption here. I am NOT talking about pastors who are barely paid and cleaning their own churches. I am talking about the horrible "prosperity gospel preachers" who teach their "flock" that Jesus was wealthy and Jesus wants THEM to be wealthy, too. It is one of the many reasons I left the church and have never looked back.

 

WHY ARE MORE PEOPLE NOT JUST OUTRAGED AT THE FLEECING OF THE FLOCK?! (Joyce Meyers and her private jet, Benny Hinn and his fleet of fancy cars and HIS private jet, etc. There are MANY more examples. Again, NOT talking about your average pastor, but the ones who ARE clearly out to make lots of money off the backs of the working poor/middle class.)

Oh, people are outraged. It just so happens that they're busier DOING things (that's NOT a dig at you).

 

This is the problem with attempting to ... what's the word ... negate? radicals or those that twist things you believe in until they become some sick juggernaut that is suddenly the symbol of what you believe in for everyone around you. They CAN spend their time and money doing this, but for those people that actually believe in that cause (Christianity, Islam, prolife, anti-death penalty, animal rights, pick nearly anything) they do not want to WASTE their time and energy on this CRUD when it is so much better spent working on that thing they truly believe in.

 

Stepping off soap box...

 

Saving the world one post at a time. I'm here all day people. Well, I actually have to run out tonight, I have some commitments to keep, but I'll be back ;)

 

And Cyndi, that isn't anger directed towards you. It is anger at all those people that get their filthy mitts on things meant for good (whatever the cause) and twist it so they can make the world a darker place.

[FaithManor]

My dh is the treasurer for our church, It is a volunteer position that requires 8 hours of week plus training. Many churches do not give their treasurers training but they are asking for trouble. The IRS is a very nosy organization that just loves to rip churches to shreds. He volunteers all of his time but we could not afford the travel to the conferences so the church family pays for that. So, I guess dh is one of the expenses.

 

Here are other expenses: $12,000.00 per year in liability insurance. $500.00 per month for propane during heating season. $750.00 per month in electric for the church and the parsonage - our pastor doesn't take anything even approximating a decent salary and so the church family insists on paying his utilities. The church secretary job is 20 hours per week and I don't know many people who would volunteer 20 hours per week. $5000.00 per in Deacon's Benevolence fund. $10,000.00 per year to overseas missionaries and $5000.00 per year to our annual community outreach day in which underprivileged families can receive free dental care, free haircuts, groceries, school supplies, lunch, personal care supplies, and sign-up for free counseling services provided by a licensed counselor, $3000.00 annual insurance for the church van which must be insured as a commercial vehicle and is used for the mssion's groups to get back and forth to the airport, $200.00 annual renewal each for the three drivers in the church who maintain their CDL licenses so they can drive the vehicle - most families would not pay for that out of pocket so that they can then take a day off from work to do the driving as well, 25 hours per week for janitorial services at $13.50 per hour - no one in the church has 25 hours to give to that project, $800.00 per year snowplowing because no one in the church owns snow removal equipment, $150.00 per month for garbage dumpster, $100.00 per quarter for water testing required by the county for all public buildings still on a well and septic, $1500.00 per year in boiler maintenance, $100.00 per month in toiletry supplies for bathrooms, $50.00 per month in kitchen supplies for funeral dinners, $100.00 or more in flowers or other donations for family members who have lost loved ones, $100.00 a month in ministerial supplies, $800.00 per month to the emergency savings account in case something really major breaks and towards large repairs which the labor is always provided by church members but the supplies must be purchased, $5000.00 this past year for repair of the septic drainage field which had to be done by a certified/licensed company or it wouldn't have been insured under our policy, $1000.00 annually - sometimes more - for funeral dinners put on by the church family (the church provides the meat and drinks, members provide the side dishes), $1200.00 per year in curriculum for the children's department, $800.00 annually for VBS, $100.00 to be listed in the phone book, $80.00 for internet service, $175.00 annually for copier service and toner, $300.00 - print cartridges for the printers i.e. bulletins and letters, etc., Paper supplies - goodness - I can't remember that off hand, Pastor's salary which I will not disclose but will say is paltry for how hard the man works! This isn't everything either. We are a frugal church and do not spend a lot in comparison to many, many other churches. We also very rarely take up a special offering, instead dh tries to always put something away in savings and makes every department scale back spending if offerings fall below the average for the previous year.

 

Faith

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Oh, people are outraged. It just so happens that they're busier DOING things (that's NOT a dig at you).

 

This is the problem with attempting to ... what's the word ... negate? radicals or those that twist things you believe in until they become some sick juggernaut that is suddenly the symbol of what you believe in for everyone around you. They CAN spend their time and money doing this, but for those people that actually believe in that cause (Christianity, Islam, prolife, anti-death penalty, animal rights, pick nearly anything) they do not want to WASTE their time and energy on this CRUD when it is so much better spent working on that thing they truly believe in.

 

Stepping off soap box...

 

Saving the world one post at a time. I'm here all day people. Well, I actually have to run out tonight, I have some commitments to keep, but I'll be back ;)

 

And Cyndi, that isn't anger directed towards you. It is anger at all those people that get their filthy mitts on things meant for good (whatever the cause) and twist it so they can make the world a darker place.

 

 

Thank you. That was a very reasonable explanation. It does make sense that a lot of christians are probably angry about such excesses, but I just don't hear about it. (my family of origin supports said excessive "preachers". :glare: )

 

Fwiw, since homeschooling I have met many breeds of christian. I have been pleasantly surprised to learn that christianity is actually NOTHING like what I grew up in.

 

Still not for me, but at least I met some good ones! :001_smile:

[babysparkler]

I haven't read the other responses, but I will speak personally (as a church staff wife)... Our family made a significant pledge to the building fund (another 15% in addition to our usual 10% tithe of our gross income). We give sacrificially because we believe in the ministries of our church, and we want our "home" church to be able to serve better and reach more people... not because we are asked by someone to give. We were told by our financial secretary last week that we have exceeded our pledged amount, but we told her that we would continue to give the extra beyond our pledge because it gives us joy to do so. We love our church... not the building, but the people that benefit from the building... and we believe wholeheartedly in the ministry of our church.

Edited June 18, 2010 by babysparkler

[kmacnchs]

Most churches don't have savings or if they do it is for super emergencies like natural disaster.

 

I know I am SUPER late in this thread but I guess my church is (praise the Lord) different. We have a building fund (we meet in an elementary school right now) in which $$ is saved for whenever we find land. We will NOT go into debt if we ever do build a church building. Nor will we have a special fund raiser for the building fund. We do not give to the building fund. We have a budget (incl. supplies, rent, salaries, and funds - missionary, building, etc) and everyone's offerings are "spent" in those areas.

 

We also disagree with having yard sales, etc. "selling your junk for Jesus" to raise $$. We are a different church but I like it (obviously). I certainly do not get (nor agree) with churches going into debt to build bigger and "better" things...just my 2c...

[FO4UR]

I've not read the whole thread...

 

I'm a pastor's wife. The church pays him so he has the time to devote to actual pastoring. He's a VERY busy guy! There is NO WAY anyone could do what he does and hold down a job sufficient to feed a family. Should I put the kids in daycare so the church can have a FT pastor without having to pay him? (This happens!!) He is an educated man (Master's Degree), living on a salary that will not allow him to pay off the debt for getting his education any time soon. There ARE folks who get into the ministry for "shameful gain" but I think it's comparable to the handful of HSers who make the news with abuse situations...they are few, but they are the most vocal.

 

Most pastors live in a very uncomfortable spot. They are paid modestly, and then made to feel as if they are "owned" by the church, esp if they live in a parsonage. I've sat through a business meeting where a pastor was interrogated for replacing the toilet in the parsonage:glare:. Most pastors' wives are expected to work as many hours as their hubby's w/o ANY pay.

 

As a new PW, I made the mistake of sharing with someone that we bought a family pass to the Zoo. When people feel like "I pay you!" they take your personal finances ....personally. Evidently, a $50 zoo pass is too spendy for "their" pastor.:glare:

 

 

As for buildings, some churches do budget "new buildings" into their monthly budget, but it's common to have special offerings too. I think these things are good/bad on a case-by-case basis. Lots of churches are able to provide services simply b/c their membership is generous. (How many private schools are housed in churches???)

[babysparkler]

As a new PW, I made the mistake of sharing with someone that we bought a family pass to the Zoo. When people feel like "I pay you!" they take your personal finances ....personally. Evidently, a $50 zoo pass is too spendy for "their" pastor.:glare:

 

This is so true :glare:. I find myself telling about "what a great deal I got on this" or how "so-and-so passed this on to us and what a blessing it was!" all the time so that people don't think I'm just spending away my husband's earnings and so they know how frugally we live.

 

Okay, thanks for indulging in my tangent. Back to our regularly scheduled program...:lol:

[FO4UR]

This is so true :glare:. I find myself telling about "what a great deal I got on this" or how "so-and-so passed this on to us and what a blessing it was!" all the time so that people don't think I'm just spending away my husband's earnings and so they know how frugally we live.

 

Okay, thanks for indulging in my tangent. Back to our regularly scheduled program...:lol:

 

:lol: :grouphug:

[Laurie4b]

In our church, the deacons (all lay people--volunteers) recommend the budget --including staff salaries---and the whole congregation has to approve it. Members of the congregation can amend it. Any member of the congregation can see where every single dollar goes. Occasionally, there is special fund set aside outside of the normal budget--like a building fund. This is similar to when a family makes a decision to save for something particular--let's say a college fund. The college fund is, in one way, adjunct to the "normal operating budget" of the family. When the kids are done college (or the building built), the need for that special fund is finished.

 

If your church doesn't do that, however, why not ask there instead of here?

[TravelingChris]

All the churches I have been involved with had no meaningless building campaigns. My current church is sharing facilities with 4 other congregations. My church in Florida was having a building campaign. It was to replace the fellowship hall. Not one penny was being spent before we got the money for whatever project we were doing. People did donate to the building but no one was harassed to give. All churches we have been involved with had reasonable, if not too low, pastor salaries. I never begrudged that. All churches I have been involved with put money into programs, charity, and outreach but building costs are much larger than one can guess. In Florida and CA, we had high insurance costs. The heating or cooling bills for a building are high. I loved that our church in FLorida did great community outreach. THe fellowship hall they were wanting to replace was a 60 year building that had weathered numerous hurricanes. It wasn't in the best shape and our church was used every day, most times of day, for various groups including Boy Scouts, AA, jazzercize, crafting groups making projects for nursing home patients, and on and on. I don't know too many churches that aren;t being used for other things too including homeschool co-ops or support group meetings. Lots of groups, some of which are totally secular, use church buildings. They are a great resource for many communities. I also concur with other posters that our pastors and church staff deserve their pay. I have never attended nor supported one of these churches with planes and thrones and whatnot. I go to churches that are activily serving in the community- each has different ways of doing this but whether it is helping refugees and homeless, befriending international students thousands of miles from home, visiting prisoners, feeding the homeless, or many other projects, no one is getting wealthy. ALl the congregations I was a part of have budgets that are approved by the members or by a committee (military chapels). In any case, everyone can see where the money went and the only surprise I ever had was how little the staff was paid. I am glad to be able to help these churches.

[simka2]

I have a bit of a different take than many might on this subject. At one point...it almost seems like a different life...dh and I lived the typical ministry life; on call 24/7, living in a fishbowl...and woefully underpaid! Add to that building campains...and trying to "impress upon" a congregation the importance of their giving...how "it would affect GENERATIONS for the Kingdom of God!" Ugggghhh...I want to vomit ;(

 

This wasn't even from an ultra-mega church, but a church just slightly over 1000. Fast forward to present day...past our personal trauma's at the hand of that senior pastor...to now- dh REFUSES to take a salary!!!! He willing works full-time at another job...and works on staff as an associate. Many do not know that he doesn't take a salary...it's a decision we had to make, but it is possible. It also solved so many problems for us. I no longer feel "owned" by the church. I do not feel ashamed when we can go out and buy something nice, like I have to justify the expense to some church member. The lines do not get blurred anymore...and I do not have to fear being able to feed my kids based on wether the senior pastor, elders, or church members approve of me.

 

Also, I get too: serve as I feel led, I do not have to fulfill any specific role save the one I feel God is asking me to. Somehow it has also changed the way church members relate to me...most are so happy to see me being me :) and the ones that complain, bcause I didn't do this or that...I really don't care anymore...they have no power over my life.

 

I say all this to say...it is possible to be in fulltime ministry...and not take a salary. I'm not saying that those who do are wrong too...just that it is possible. Truthfully, it takes a lot of trust from a congregation to not pay a pastor....who are they gonna replace you with? :)

[StephanieZ]

A turning point for me came during a church annual meeting during which a few things in the budget struck me as inconsistent with responsible leadership:

 

1) a suggestion from leadership that was being seriously considered to encourage/facilitate members to donate via credit cards.

 

2) a completely outofbalance annual budget with a "hope we come up with it" line that added up to about $25k (out of a 250k budget). So, we were being asked to approve a budget with a 10% fudge factor and no plan to fix that.

 

3) we were spending about 25k for MUSIC. Now, I love music. It's wonderful, especially at church. But, our annual childrens budget was under $300 (there are NO missing digits!) and we were spending 25,000 on music. . . while approving a budget with 25k more expenses than income?

 

It just boggled my mind. It was the last annual meeting I've ever attended. I just don't want to know how the sausage is made. . . But, I'd surely never be motivated to give up an emergency fund for any project-of-the-year at any church. Not right, imho.

[Heather in Neverland]

My issue is not with pastor's salaries, it is with churches creating "needs." I have seen it with our local churches. We have a big beautiful church locally. Lots of people attending. Lots of money spent on audio-visual equipment, sound equipment, stage sets, arts&craft supplies, brochures, web design, on and on. All of it gets purchased for the big beautiful church and then a committee decides we need a bigger, more beautiful church. Sermons are preached about giving sacrificially. Congregants pledge more. The economy tanks but the church has already committeed to the bigger building. On and on.

 

WHY?

 

Christ did not use any of this stuff. Christ did not use a building. Christ did not use a microphone, audio-visual, skits, arts&crafts, a nursery,

etc. He had a staff of twelve and they fished for a living.

 

All of these things are created "needs" and IMO do not require my sacrificial giving AT ALL.

 

Christ calls us to give sacrificially to the needs of other people - his sheep, his children .... not a building.

 

What if churches met in a park or by the beach (like Christ did) for a quick service and then ate a potluck meal together and then made a collection to cover the pastor's time and then went out and worked on actually helping the poor and downtrodden? INSTEAD of showing up at a building, following the routine, hearing about giving money for more church activities, and then heading out with their lives.

 

I am sorry. I know that a lot of Christians are vested in their church buildings, church equipment, church activities, etc. I just cannot see the Christ of the New Testament looking at that and saying, "Yes. Exactly. This is what I was aiming for. If only I could have had a big beautiful building, many, many more would have been saved. Well Done." OR "Okay folks, now that I have preached and fed you fish, I want to talk to you about a big piece of land and blueprints for a big new building I want you to spend your money and time on for my glory. I know that it will divert time and money from helping your fellow man, but, golly, I'm worth it."

 

 

I could go on and on myself but I figure I am already in for some WTM-flaming!

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Holly IN]

 

Why is it when a church needs fund for something..building, program...whatever. They ask for more money from people? Most churches already take up donations every week, sometimes more than once a week.

 

What are they doing with the donations? Besides normal things like electric, rent, mortgage or what have you where is it going?

 

Shouldn't the church be "sacrificing" to fund these things as well? Does the pastor (and forgive me pastors wives and such but this is my personal opinion) need to make a full time salary for being a pastor? Do people need to be paid for services rendered for the church? I mean things like secretary, treasurer or things like that. Not contractors for work some like plumbing issues and things like that.

 

I have heard churches in the past talk about needing money for this or that and please find it to make a "sacrificial" donation

 

 

So thoughts?

 

First of all, the church is the Body of Christ. So from our point of view (I work for a church that is a Christian Church) and I also attend a smaller Christian church. So when you are a member of that church you have a responsibility to help upkeep the building and pay the staff as well as the church's bills.

 

Why does the church need a building fund? They need a building fund because the regular offerings they get each week goes to the upkeep of the building (utilities, products, staff people and pastors, etc. etc.). So the building fund is used to see how many people want the building to go. The church I work for had an overwhelming support financially to build a new building because they were outgrowing their building. My church had a building fund and not a very good support but were able to build an addition. Without the building fund, the church has no direction from the people what they will give out.

 

If you are attending a church and a member, you are able to get the church's financial statement that shows where all the money is going. They do give that out to you so there are no questions about where the money is going. They have to follow the law!!

 

As far as pastors making money....well he needs to make money because that is his job. My dh is a part time fill in minister and we get paid a very small sum which only half of it pays for the gas. So not much for us....that is ok. He has a full time job in the secular world. He is not preaching every Sunday. Believe me being a preacher is a FULL TIME job. It is not just preaching but also pastoring the people. Secretaries need to be paid as well as custodials. It is a job. Services rendured fall under certain number of hours. Service rendured should not be a part time job or a full time job.

 

For ex: I am part of the facilities team at this church I work at. I am paid for my work including getting two weeks paid vacation. I work 29 hours a week. (sometimes 30 if need be) It is HARD and STRESSFUL work. So will I want to work there if I do not get paid but considered a volunteer?? I will be out of there. I do not make much. If I worked elsewhere I would be making a whole lot more than what I am at this church. :001_smile:

 

We do have people that serve within the church such as communion tray setters, cleaners, bread bakers, so on....they do not get paid because it is considered a mission within the church. So there are things that is not a paying job....because it only takes about 3 hours a week.

 

Sacrificial donations: They do this for the building fund. They need the regular offering so the building fund or any other extra fund goes with the sacrificial donations. I believe what they are doing is to see how many can go above and beyond. I know my dh and I CAN'T give sacrificially. That is ok. Not everybody can do it. They wealthy can and do. So it does balance out in the end.

 

I hope this answers your questions. (I didn't read any responses as I wanted to answer your questions with a clear head)

 

Holly

Edited June 18, 2010 by Holly IN
clarify something

[Holly IN]

This is so true :glare:. I find myself telling about "what a great deal I got on this" or how "so-and-so passed this on to us and what a blessing it was!" all the time so that people don't think I'm just spending away my husband's earnings and so they know how frugally we live.

 

Okay, thanks for indulging in my tangent. Back to our regularly scheduled program...:lol:

 

I highly recommend all of you to read a book called "Mrs. Preacher " succeeding as a minister's Wife. For those in the Parsonage and the Pew by Karen Norheim. What an eye opener!! After reading this book, I SHUT my mouth about what preachers and their families spend their money on. Our preacher friend recommended the book to me since my dh was going to go into the ministry full time. It is a MUST read for EVERYBODY!! WOW!! After reading this book, I changed my view on pastor's families. My dh is a PK so after telling him stuff about the book he agreed. He said they were dirt poor and the people of the church that his dad preached at expected them to be poor. What a sad thing to hear. It just breaks my heart to hear what he went through growing up.

 

After getting burned, he is just a part time fill in (Key word is FILL IN)....When a church looses a pastor or a pastor on vacation...whatever the reason is he gets called to preach for one Sunday or several Sundays. He does get paid for it but not much.

 

You can get the book cheaply on Amazon in their marketplace.

 

After being in the ministry...I wanted OUT. I didn't like the way people expected for us to have a certain car or certain house. :glare: No wonder our pastors are bailing out of the ministry. We as the congregation can make sure that we stay out of the minister's business in regards to his family.

 

Sorry I got on the soapbox here. :D

 

Carry on...

 

Holly

[babysparkler]

I highly recommend all of you to read a book called "Mrs. Preacher " succeeding as a minister's Wife. For those in the Parsonage and the Pew by Karen Norheim.

 

Thanks, Holly! I just ordered it (using a $5 giftcard I received from Swagbucks:lol:).