Dh has an ethical dilema ;(

[simka2]

And I'm not sure how to advise him. So, I will lay it before you to the best of my ability.

 

Dh is an ordained pastor.

He was called by the parents of a boy who will be a highschool senior, who wanted him to counsel their son and his girlfriend. From what dh could gather from the mother the girlfriend has already graduated highschool, and has been abandoned by her own family. She is living with them. They want to get married. Dh was supposed to counsel them about this decision.

 

Dh met with the couple in ? briefly to say he would be happy to meet with them, but it needed to be their idea.

 

He recieved a call from the mother expressing that there must be some confusion. They(the boys parents) are okay with the couple getting married...in a month...she just wanted to arrange pre-marital counseling.

 

Here's the problem dh is having...in the short meeting he had with this couple, he got the distinct impression this boy is not 100% sure about being married and in highschool. There seems to be a lot of pressure from girlfriend and his mother. Where will girlfriend go if she can't live with them? and mom doesn't want an unmarried couple living together under her roof.

 

On the other hand, he doesn't think this boy will go against both his girlfriend and mom.

 

Dh believes firmly in respecting boundaires. If this is the decision they want to make...he's okay with that. On the other hand, where does his responsibility lie to this boy if he is being pressurred into marriage?

 

Hivemind help?

[Hannah C.]

When dh and I went through premarital counseling, our pastor made it very clear that he would NOT be able to marry us if he did not feel that we were ready for the commitment. His marrying us was based solely on us being able to show him that we were indeed ready. The senior pastor told us that he preferred it when people made the decision not to marry, because he saw too many people rush into it too early. Dh and I were 19 and 20 at the time (now 20 and 21) and both of us were out of high school. Even now, I think dh has occasional moments where he wonders what would've happened if we'd married later -- and we wanted to get married desperately! It goes along with being young and married, perhaps.

 

If I was your dh and sensed any reluctance on either the guy's or the girl's part, I would be very careful to talk to them INDEPENDENTLY, try to find out what they really want, and encourage them in that. NO high school senior should be pushed into marriage, no matter the other extenuating circumstances. If they proceeded with the plans and I felt uncertain about whether they both really wanted to get married, or felt like this was just a bad idea, I would tell the family I did not feel comfortable with doing the ceremony and perhaps recommend another pastor.

 

In reality, all that is needed for them to be legally married is a trip to City Hall and some sort of parental consent on the part of the high school son. But just because two people want to get married doesn't mean any pastor who doesn't agree needs to be a part of it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would say that part of premarital counseling would include how to decide if you are mature enough for the responsibilities (and joys) of marriage, the man being a leader (in our understanding of scripture), and the gravity of the decision. I would leave it open for the pastor and young man to have a one-on-one session at some point.

 

Is the young woman a part of your church? Are there other people who could take her in? Even if they do get married in a month or longer, she really should be staying elsewhere so that this can be a more objective decision.

[fairfarmhand]

WHOA! That is a problem.

 

Can he counsel privately with the boy? Your dh needs to find out what social services are available for the girl so that she can be provided for. This boy does not need to develop a "knight in shining armour rescuing a damsel in distresss" complex.

 

I bet if there are some alternatives for this girl's care, he may be rethinking his decision.

[hornblower]

I think his responsibility is to the young couple & to help them determine if they are truly ready and willing to undertake this commitment.

[Mama Geek]

I would discuss with your dh that he talks to someone with more wisdom that is associated with your denomination on how to handle this. In church I have been associated with there are Bishops and seminary professors and many pastors who have years of experience.

 

Our denomination takes marriage pretty seriously to the point that if things aren't right they will not marry a couple.

[abbeyej]

I wonder if it would be possible for him to find an alternative living arrangement for the young woman? Perhaps that would relieve some of the pressure involved, if there were, say, an older woman in the congregation who could provide a room in her house (with minimal rent but some sort of contract signed by both parties)?

[Lara in Colo]

I think his duty is to the couple and their happiness. He should councel them like any other couple and perhaps try to have them reach the point where THEY see this is not was THEY want. A marriage cannot work unless both want it to--if one is not ready-the COUPLE isn't ready, and the COUPLE is getting married. Life is hard and marriage is LIFE PARTNERSHIP. Not just a partnership for life but to get through life. So many think marriage is only about love and s*x but its also about commitment and holding on through the cr*p life hands out.

 

Lara

[Corraleno]

I would suggest he meet with the boy and the girlfriend separately first, to see how they really feel about the whole thing. Unless the boy is truly 100% certain that he wants to spend the rest of his life with this girl, then a better course of action might be to help the girl find an apartment and a job, so they can continue to explore their relationship before deciding if they truly want to commit to marriage. It may be that the girl isn't 100% on this either, but doesn't see an alternative.

 

Jackie

[OhM]

I agree with other advice given, but I'm wondering - what is his typical approach to pre-marital counseling? Has he encountered couples with one ambivalent partner before? Does he have a criteria outside of which he cannot in good conscience agree to marry the couple? And would this couple fall into that category?

 

I'd think having mom calling to arrange the pre-marital counseling is pretty unusual in itself. Sounds to me like she's actually asking him to make him ready to marry this girl. Some frank discussion with everyone involved will probably be needed to allow the boy the ability to make up his own mind.

[simka2]

I would say he should take the kid out one-on-one, get him a soda and let him talk. If he isn't read yo get married then I bet your dh could help the girlfriend find a nice family at the church to live with for a while until they are a bit older and ready to make a decision.

 

It's a huge choice and not one to be taken lightly. I am sure your dh can think of some good ways to get the ball rolling and find out how the young man is really feeling.

 

The mom calling to set it up seems off to me. If the couple wants to get married then they have to start acting like adults and make their own phone calls.

 

They asked him for counseling and making sure everyone is on the same page, ready for marriage and happy to be there, is generally part of that kind of thing. Asking hard questions and talking individually with the young man is just part of the job from my pov. I guess I fail to see the ethical dilemma.

 

The ethical delima part is that...their words are saying all the right things...but he has a gut check. On the other hand, he believes strongly...that people have the right to make their own life decsions.

 

He has been marrying people for 10 plus years one time he ignored the gut check...and seriously regretted it. I think he was a bit blindsided by the mother. He really thought this was about the decision wether to get married...now...or later. Now he's finding out that the decision is made...and will he go along with it. :glare:

[elegantlion]

Where are the dads in this situation? This boy may need a strong male role model to help him express his concerns if dad is not in the picture. Sounds like mom wants the pre-marital counseling as something to just check off the list.

 

I say go with his gut, take the boy to lunch, and have a man-to-man talk.

[RobinF]

I haven't read any replies, but I will tell you our experience.

 

Dh is a pastor and several years ago we did intensive pre marital counseling with a couple who were in our congregation and she was a friend.

 

2 weeks before the wedding bride to be called in a panic, wasn't sure, yada yada. I talked with her and dh talked with her. Reassured her, calmed her, supported her and told her to get married she loved the guy everything would be fine. The marriage lasted less than one week. They didn't even make it back from the honeymoon.

 

So my advice is that your dh either needs to sit down with the groom to be and figure out the situation and then make a decision and possibly sit down with all of them and say he doesn't think it is a good idea and help find some place for the gf to live.

 

This just doesn't sound like a good long term situation for any of them.

[Care]

FWIW, when I went through premarital counseling, the priest met with both my fiancé (fiancée?) and I separately. Had either of us expressed any doubt to the priest, he would have declined to perform the ceremony - and that would have "stuck" across the church. No reason given publicly, simply 'no, I'm sorry, you cannot be married in this church.' While that may not be enough to deter the mother, knowing her child can't be married in the church... if she's sticking really hard on the 'living in sin' aspect of their unmarried state, it may be enough to buy the son some time to either grow a backbone and stick up for himself, for the two to have a monster blowout and not be dating anymore anyhow, or for him to actually be ready to get married.

[Daisy]

Your husband is not obligated to marry anyone.

 

Some thoughts.

 

1. Is there another family in the church willing to take the girl in? Personally, I'd prefer this happen BEFORE any other decisions are made. Not because of how it looks but because it take a lot of the urgency off the situation. I think having the girl in the same house automatically adds pressure to the situation.

 

2. Meet separately with the guy and the gal and be honest. I don't see a problem with the minister saying, "When I listen to you, I hear what sounds like a bit of reluctance about this? Is it the timing? Do you feel rushed? Under pressure?"

 

3. Advise them based on Scripture and his gut feelings. That is what they are asking for or what they should be asking for. If that he means he says he cannot in good conscience preform the wedding ceremony or he feels they should wait or whatever, that is what he needs to do.

 

My Dad is a minister. He requires 8 weeks of pre-marital counseling, which automatically slows down the process.

[unsinkable]

And I'm not sure how to advise him. So, I will lay it before you to the best of my ability.

 

Dh is an ordained pastor.

He was called by the parents of a boy who will be a highschool senior, who wanted him to counsel their son and his girlfriend. From what dh could gather from the mother the girlfriend has already graduated highschool, and has been abandoned by her own family. She is living with them. They want to get married. Dh was supposed to counsel them about this decision.

 

Dh met with the couple in ? briefly to say he would be happy to meet with them, but it needed to be their idea.

 

He recieved a call from the mother expressing that there must be some confusion. They(the boys parents) are okay with the couple getting married...in a month...she just wanted to arrange pre-marital counseling.

 

Here's the problem dh is having...in the short meeting he had with this couple, he got the distinct impression this boy is not 100% sure about being married and in highschool. There seems to be a lot of pressure from girlfriend and his mother. Where will girlfriend go if she can't live with them? and mom doesn't want an unmarried couple living together under her roof.

 

On the other hand, he doesn't think this boy will go against both his girlfriend and mom.

 

Dh believes firmly in respecting boundaires. If this is the decision they want to make...he's okay with that. On the other hand, where does his responsibility lie to this boy if he is being pressurred into marriage?

 

Hivemind help?

 

This is a big red flag for me. If this girl was abandoned by her own family, she may not be thinking clearly. Who would be thinking clearly...it's not a slam on her. I am just picturing someone looking for a family to replace what she lost.

[Carol in Cal.]

...if a couple is living together, will require that they separate before marital counselling and stay apart until after the wedding. If that's not your husband's policy, then it's not reasonable to implement it all of the sudden, but if it is, I think that enabling that to occur would be a good thing in this instance.

 

Beyond that, I think your husband should stop and think about what he normally does in pre-marital counselling and whether that is doable here. What all does he normally talk about? How long does it take? He should prayerfully consider each step in his normal process. And then he should decide what to do.

 

If he can't marry this couple in good conscience, he needs to tell them that sooner rather than later.

[manylilblessings]

The fact that it was the parents who initiated contact with the pastor for pre-marital counseling, instead of the boy; whose intention it is to be the head of a home, sends up red flags for me.

 

If his parents are still taking care of his business, he's not ready to take care of a wife and a household.

 

I would counsel your husband to pray over the situation, and ask God to remove the gut-check, or let it remain. In either case, he will have more clarity and can act accordingly.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The ethical delima part is that...their words are saying all the right things...but he has a gut check. On the other hand, he believes strongly...that people have the right to make their own life decsions.

 

He has been marrying people for 10 plus years one time he ignored the gut check...and seriously regretted it. I think he was a bit blindsided by the mother. He really thought this was about the decision wether to get married...now...or later. Now he's finding out that the decision is made...and will he go along with it. :glare:

 

Well, a man and woman of integrity can make even an iffy marriage work. I think of all the arranged marriages I know of, the marriages where one or more of the people had baggage (which seems to fit this case because of the abandonment) etc. If the decision to marry is made (by the young man as well as his mother) then appropriate counseling could be on how to make what could be a rough start to a marriage work. In fact I would think that any premarital counseling would include something along these lines since very few marriages are always problem free.

 

Again, part of any marriage counseling should include the principle of "leaving and cleaving". That means that mom is not going to be allowed to be a meddling MIL if this marriage is going to have a chance. And that has to start now with the marriage decision.

[ConnieB]

.

Edited June 16, 2010 by ConnieB

[StephanieZ]

One thing to consider....if the bride to be is over 18 and the boy is under 18, if your husband, during this counseling or otherwise, believes that "relations" have occured, I believe that as a priest he is obligated by law to report it. The boy is a minor and the woman is not.

 

Gosh, this is incorrect in most localities, I believe.

 

For instance, in our state of WV, the "age of consent" is 16. In order to be guilty of "statutory rape" (assault), one must be BOTH over 16 and have intercourse with someone who is BOTH under 16 AND FOUR OR MORE years younger than the person over 16.

 

Fortunately, I am not an expert on this, lol, but that's what I get from reading the statute online.

 

I think it is wrong for a number of reasons to take the "must be illegal; must punish" approach with obviously consenting young people who are close to the legal definition of "adult" and close in age. I'd urge caution and careful thought before pursuing that line of reasoning.

 

Obviously, if there is *abuse* suspected and one is a legally (or ethically) mandated reporter, then the rules change. . . Presumably a mandated reported would educate themselves about both the issues and the laws.

 

Here is a .gov site with a table of various state's laws on this issue

 

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml

 

HTH

[kalanamak]

Can he talk to the mother? How well does he know her? How reasonable is she? Can he talk to the kids one at a time? Is she pregnant?

 

This kind of thing makes me worried about the Tre and Tre-esses of the world, and a spouse and child left behind.

 

I think finding someone else for her to stay with is a great idea. Getting married is never an emergency these days....

[FO4UR]

If the boy doesn't have the backbone or strong desire to make the wedding happen (why is the mom calling???), then he doesn't have the backbone/desire to see the marriage through. There are exceptions...but they are...exceptions. Now, 2 "kids" who are determined to get married/stay married can make some of the best marriages against the odds...but it doesn't seem like this is the case.

 

A Man-to-Man talk is definitely in order. I'm thinking this boy might need some long-term mentorship regardless...

 

I would seriosuly recommend finding other arrangements for the girl while the counseling is going on! If she weren't dependent upon him for a roof over her head, would they still want to get married? Would she? Would he?

 

Where are they going to live after the wedding? Living with a MIL as a new bride is pretty much a nightmare for most young women. That alone could stifle out a young marriage.

 

What are his plans for the future? How is he going to support a wife (and children)?

[Mommyof4ks]

I agree, your dh needs to let them know that he cannot marry them if they are not both committed to the marriage.

 

Why does the girl need somewhere to live if she is out of high school? Many people have to move out and get a job just out of high school. If she plans to go to college then she needs to live there and get a job. A job is what the girl needs, not a husband at this point. Maybe your dh can let her know how the world works. ;)

[simka2]

Thankyou everyone! You guys have been able to see things from a distance that, when we were still struggling with the fact that them getting married was a done deal.

 

Anyway, dh will definately be meeting with each one seperately and will be putting in front of them the option to have the girlfriend live with another family for awhile.

 

If, after all that, they still decide to get married, we will stand with them and be willing to walk thru whatever the future brings.

 

We will definately not be talking anyone into this marriage.

 

I really appreciate that you guys brought some things into focus. I'm sure we sound like newbie's in this :) We've actually been thru 6 premarital/weddings this year alone...and it's only june. But this has been the first in quite awhile that just wasn't sitting right.

[TravelingChris]

I have to say that I would be very hesitant to marry this couple both because the mother is calling and also the male is still a minor or at least in high school. How can he be expected to provide for his family while in high school? This sets up the marriage as one of dependency on his family. Not a good start.

[Aubrey]

1. Find the girl another home, w/ one of her girlfriends, someone in the church, something more official, whatever. She needs to feel secure in her home so she can separate that from her feelings for the boy, AND whether they get married or not, it is inappropriate (from a Christian perspective) for them to be living together now anyway.

 

2. I think an important part of premarital counseling is done together. Another important part is done separately. That would give the boy a better chance to really talk to the pastor. Even if he's happy w/ the plan, he's got to have some private questions to ask another man.

 

3. Perhaps schedule a series of premarital counseling appts, spread out over, say 3mos at least, to get a feel for how quickly this thing should happen, if at all. I'd want to know the kids & the parents in this kind of situation, so I had no regrets later. First, if the girl's been abandoned, she's going to have issues that will make the marriage harder. Period. The boy needs to be that much more of a man to deal w/ that, & frankly, that's probably too much for any kid in highschool. Second, the pastor that married dh & I told us early on that he'd never married a couple who'd ended up divorced. He didn't want to start w/ us. It's a little thing, maybe, but I haven't forgotten it. It means I don't want to mess up his track record, lol, & it means that someone w/ experience helping people make good marital choices gave his blessing to our choice to be together. That means something to me.

[QuirkyKapers]

If your dh slows things down and has a time frame that he requires for premarital counseling, the mother may have a fit and try and pressure your dh to marry them sooner. One can always suggest that, if you are uncomfortable with the guidelines that I use with the couples who come to me for counseling, perhaps you should explore some other options :)

 

 

I think meeting individually with both of them is a good thing. It is curious that the mother is so gung ho on this...

Most important, is that your dh is honest about the reaction he is having. I have learned that if I don't trust and follow my gut, I regret it later. The girl has some serious stuff to work through. It is great the family took her in but I agree with others, a different place for her to live would be in the best interest for her and the the boy involved. They may not like what your dh has to day, but at least if he gives them his honest, gut feeling it might make them angry, but they may also stop and think.

 

Good luck!

Edited June 16, 2010 by QuirkyKapers

[AuntieM]

Sorry I haven't read all the replies yet, but here's what I think (the short version, nonetheless).

 

True love stands the test of time. There's no need to rush into marriage. Your dh's best counsel may be in helping them make alternate living arrangements for this dear girl until a reasonable waiting period is established and fulfilled, along with premarital counseling.

 

Just my pair o'pennies...

[tex-mex]

Hubby (former Pastor) would say his ethics and obedience to God would be making sure that young man was not pressured into doing something he did not want to do. If your hubby goes along with the parents/girlfriend wishes, he is causing harm. Isn't there a home for young unwed girls nearby? Could they consider adoption? I'd hate to see them be pressured into marriage when there are other options.

[tex-mex]

(double post)

[Joanne]

Please encourage this young woman to get qualified help for the situation that lead to her being abandoned by her family. If not adequately processed, it will likely have lasting ramifications.

[Pretty in Pink]

Your dh's obligation is to the couple he is marrying, not to their extended family.

 

My dh and I were counseled both individually and as a couple by the pastor who married us. I think your dh should have a talk with the boy, alone, and make sure that this is what the kid wants to do. Seventeen is awfully young to be married.

[SquirrellyMama]

There is no way this boy should be getting married before he graduates from high school.

 

If the girl is out of high school can she go to college? If she has no family maybe she can qualify for grants.

 

I agree also about having her live with another church family. Maybe when he graduates they will be in a better position to marry.

[Renee in NC]

Hubby (former Pastor) would say his ethics and obedience to God would be making sure that young man was not pressured into doing something he did not want to do. If your hubby goes along with the parents/girlfriend wishes, he is causing harm. Isn't there a home for young unwed girls nearby? Could they consider adoption? I'd hate to see them be pressured into marriage when there are other options.

 

I don't think there is a pregnancy involved.:confused:

[katemary63]

This is not an ethical dilema. Your DH should just do the right thing which is to councel the boy and girl, both together and seperately and give them his best advice honestly.

[ereks mom]

I have to say that I would be very hesitant to marry this couple both because the mother is calling and also the male is still a minor or at least in high school. How can he be expected to provide for his family while in high school? This sets up the marriage as one of dependency on his family. Not a good start.

 

Yes, if his mother is doing the calling, then he is apparently not ready for the kind of responsibility that marriage would require. I totally agree that the couple would become dependent upon the family. They shouldn't get married until at least one of them has a job and they can pay their own way--if they should marry at all, which I doubt.

 

I would suggest he meet with the boy and the girlfriend separately first, to see how they really feel about the whole thing. Unless the boy is truly 100% certain that he wants to spend the rest of his life with this girl, then a better course of action might be to help the girl find an apartment and a job, so they can continue to explore their relationship before deciding if they truly want to commit to marriage. It may be that the girl isn't 100% on this either, but doesn't see an alternative.

 

 

Absolutely! :iagree:

 

...If she plans to go to college then she needs to live there and get a job. A job is what the girl needs, not a husband at this point.

 

:iagree: again!

[simka2]

Thankyou everyone! You guys have been able to see things from a distance that, when we were still struggling with the fact that them getting married was a done deal.

 

Anyway, dh will definately be meeting with each one seperately and will be putting in front of them the option to have the girlfriend live with another family for awhile.

 

If, after all that, they still decide to get married, we will stand with them and be willing to walk thru whatever the future brings.

 

We will definately not be talking anyone into this marriage.

 

I really appreciate that you guys brought some things into focus. I'm sure we sound like newbie's in this :) We've actually been thru 6 premarital/weddings this year alone...and it's only june. But this has been the first in quite awhile that just wasn't sitting right.

 

Just wanted to re-update :) We will see what happens. Dh will stand by his convictions...which is to do his best by this young couple as individuals. Thanks again!

[Ellie]

Dh believes firmly in respecting boundaires. If this is the decision they want to make...he's okay with that. On the other hand, where does his responsibility lie to this boy if he is being pressurred into marriage?

None of the pastors of churches I've attended would marry the couple under these circumstances. These young people are welcome to have their boundaries, but if they want to be married in the church, they need to be reconsidering what their "boundaries" are.

 

A pastor has an obligation to do more than respect boundaries. He must advise them to do what is right before God. A young man whose mother makes the phone calls and who seems to be under pressure to marry is not ready to be married, IMHO.

[Jan in SC]

Thankyou everyone! You guys have been able to see things from a distance that, when we were still struggling with the fact that them getting married was a done deal.

 

Anyway, dh will definately be meeting with each one seperately and will be putting in front of them the option to have the girlfriend live with another family for awhile.

 

If, after all that, they still decide to get married, we will stand with them and be willing to walk thru whatever the future brings.

 

We will definately not be talking anyone into this marriage.

 

I really appreciate that you guys brought some things into focus. I'm sure we sound like newbie's in this :) We've actually been thru 6 premarital/weddings this year alone...and it's only june. But this has been the first in quite awhile that just wasn't sitting right.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "we?" Do you counsel with him? (I really am just curious!)

What denomination are you? (It is really hard to not type y'all!)

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jan in SC
questions need question marks!

[simka2]

None of the pastors of churches I've attended would marry the couple under these circumstances. These young people are welcome to have their boundaries, but if they want to be married in the church, they need to be reconsidering what their "boundaries" are.

 

A pastor has an obligation to do more than respect boundaries. He must advise them to do what is right before God. A young man whose mother makes the phone calls and who seems to be under pressure to marry is not ready to be married, IMHO.

 

My dh isn't like "most" pastors. If after counseling, this couple still says they want to go get married, we will stand with them. Granted this would be after, dh meets with each one individually to discuss why they want to get married, what sort of living situation they are looking at, and offering alternatives...things like that. Dh might still harbor supiscions that this man doesn't feel free to go against his parents expectations, even if dh is willing to support him in those choices, but if this person insists he wants to be married that is his choice...he is 18.

 

Please understand...we are not totally surprised at this mother's behavior and the father is decidedly laid back. We don't even know for a fact that this young man wanted his mother to call, he may be very embarressed by her behavior, and not feel ready to open up to dh about that fact. In many circles it would "seem" disrespectful of him to speak badly about his mother. The truth is we don't know all the details yet. Again, we will see how this develops :)

 

 

I will say this...reading the responses here has helped me solidify my feelings on this unique situation. I thank you all for that!

[simka2]

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "we?" Do you counsel with him? (I really am just curious!)

What denomination are you? (It is really hard to not type y'all!)

 

Sometimes I revert to the we on here, because all the him this...him that, gets old to me. I do not counsel with him unless asked too, and truthfully once he begins meeting with this couple (for example) He will not share the details with me....again unless they ask him too!

 

He was struggling more with his "gut" feeling about wasn't being said...more than anything else. Hope that wasn't too confusing :)

 

Hmmmm...denomination...well there's a hot potato. Dh was raised Christian Reformed...He struggled with some of the theology. Switched to the Assemblies of God....struggled with different theology :) and now we are non-denominational.

[Jan in SC]

Thanks for sharing! I always thought I knew a lot about other churches, but my experience on this board has helped open my eyes to some extent. Of course, I mean that in the best possible way! :)