need honest opinions about my dd

[Only me]

My 15 year old dd still has insomnia. We have tried everything and nothing has changed. I wake her up around 10:00 every day but she is still getting very little sleep. Her new sleep specialist really thought he would be able to help us but so far there hasn't been any change.

 

I know what we have several months before school starts again in August but it really goes by quickly. At this point I don't see that there is anyway that my daughter will be able to get up by 6:00 and function with only a few hours of sleep. We had planned on sending her to the private high school that she started at last year but are hesitant because if it doesn't work out then we will be out at least the first quarter's payment. At this point I'm not even sure that the school will want her to enroll unless we are very confident that she will be able to stay. Last year we really thought that she could go back 2nd semester but she wasn't able to so the school was out 3/4 of the tuition. We had paid the first quarter. The school would have been able to get our tuition through tuition insurance but since we kept on hoping that she would be able to go back it was too late for them to file a claim.

 

I really, really don't want my daughter to go to the public school full time. My oldest daughter went there freshman year and was miserable.

 

My husband really doesn't want me to home school her for high school. He feels that she is behind socially. I agree that she is not like the "typical" 15 year old but I'm not sure that is a bad thing. She has no desire to wear makeup or wear the latest fashions. She does tend to be a little sensitive to some things but so am I. She tends to not complain when she is sick or hurt and that type of thing but can be a little more emotional than my other two children. She tends to worry more about things: storms, being alone in the house. She is also pretty shy until she gets to know someone. For instance, when we go to the doctor she tends to look at me when the doctor is talking instead of looking at the doctor. She could care less about having a boyfriend and quite honestly could care less about making a ton of friends. The group that she had started to hang out with last year at school has really changed and become the kind of girls that she wouldn't want to hang out with. If she were to go back to the private school I'm not sure that she would have friends anyway. If she is in a group of people and there are kids her age she doesn't talk to them (for example at bowling or parties we have gone to with other families). On the other hand, I do feel sorry for since she has no friends around here. Her only friends live out of town. She is capable of making friends but it takes her awhile and she is picky. She doesn't want friends just for the sake of having friends. She hates it when people are fake or when girls act like they are better than everyone else (seems to be pretty typical at that age).

 

She is in karate but there aren't any kids her age in the class. She is also on a bowling league but so far hasn't been able to meet any girls she would like to be friends with. She has either been with all boys or the girls she meets are complete opposite of her (boy crazy, swearing all the time, etc.). She doesn't want to join a church youth group and we don't have any homeschool groups around us. She seems quite content hanging out with her siblings but I still feel at times that she might be lonely since both her younger brother and older sister have friends that they will hang out with. My older daughter will bring her sister along once in a while to the movies, shopping, etc. but it's not the same as having your own group of friends. At this point I don't think that she will meet any friends if we don't send her to high school.

 

For the most part I would like to homeschool her but I am worried about a few of her classes, especially science. We did biology this year but she only did virtual labs. This is really my weakness (along with higher level math) so I don't feel capable of teaching anything beyond biology or geometry). She also needs to take Spanish but I don't think I am capable at all of helping her with that. We have tried Rosetta Stone in the past but I don't think that she was learning enough. I feel that you really need to be able to speak the language with other people to learn it. I don't mind outsourcing but I have no idea where to look. I haven't been able to find any co-ops in our area and even if I did I would feel uncomfortable teaching a class. When we lived in another town they had a co op but the only way that my kids could take a class is if I taught another one. When she is 16 she would be able to take classes at the community college but I'm not sure what to do with her next year. If I want to convince dh that we should homeschool her again next year I need a solid plan.

 

There is also a small possibility that we would be moving out of state (TN) by the following year. At that point we might want her to go to the public school but I'm not sure if any of the classes she took this year or will take next year would transfer.

 

I've told my husband that I just don't think that dd will be up to going to school next fall. He feels that we tried keeping her home this year but since there hasn't been any change that we can't keep her home forever. He thinks that she will just have to adjust. I can't imagine getting through school with only 2-3 hours of sleep a night. At least when she gets to college she can take classes that start later in the day. I'm hoping that she will eventually grow out of the insomnia and I'm hoping that it is somehow hormone related but if she doesn't she will just have to learn to cope as an adult.

[JenC3]

I can't advise you on the school part because you know your daughter and what's best for her personality, but in regards to the sleep stuff, have you tried waking her up at 8? Also what about doing more physical exercise during the day? How's her diet? Is she taking in too much sugar or caffeine?

[Only me]

Oh yes. We've tried everything. Waking her up earlier just means less sleep. We have tried that though. Also in the beginning of the school year she was getting up at 6 am every day (for about 1 1/2 months). IT just made her a very sick girl. She exercises daily-goes for a walk most mornings, takes karate twice a week and tries to be active in the afternoons. She has bad knees and of course is exhausted but exercises as much as she can.

 

After her latest sleep study the doctor said that her clock is basically off 5 hours. So for her even though I'm not waking her up until 10:00 it is actually like waking up most people at 5 am! He also thinks that since she is so sleep deprived that is why she is also waking up during the night so many times (lasting 20 minutes to an hour every time). The study showed very little deep sleep.

 

Per doctor's instructions she doesn't get into bed until she can't keep her eyes open any longer (usually around 1 or 2 am). Then the minute she gets into bed she is wide awake again. It takes her another hour or so to fall asleep and then she wakes up about every hour during the night. It's so frustrating and this has been going on for 2 years now. We've been to about 10 different doctors, have spent 100's of dollars on tests, etc. but nothing works.

[JenC3]

:( Wow that sounds tough. Well if she is that sleep deprived I would let her homeschool. She sounds like she needs to get up at noon and then proceed through the day. Some people are just geered to be night owls more than others.

[usetoschool]

I think you know what is in your daughters long term best interest better than we do and you kind of sound like you would like to have her home but are just worried about being successful. I would say it is possible to do a good job homeschooling a highschooler. I don't have any advanced degrees or access to great programs or equipment or anything and we did just fine, as have many other people on these boards. If that is really what is in your heart, it is possible to be successful at it.

 

My other question might be a dumb one - but if you do decide to send her to high school and she has to get up at 6, can your body really just stay awake? Won't she at some point just have to sleep? You have probably talked about this in other threads that I just haven't read but if you keep her up during the day, every day, doesn't your body just crash at some point? I don't think I would want to see my daughter suffer through something like that because I am pretty sure she would feel miserable but if she sleeps in the morning isn't it that her body clock is just out of whack? Does she really get by on just a couple hours of sleep or are her hours of sleep just moved around to the morning? Does she have insommnia or is she a night owl?

 

Sorry for what you are going through - it is really hard to see your kids suffer and struggle. I hope you find some answers.

 

ETA - I see that you answered most of the questions in a previous post while I was typing up the questions so don't feel like you need to answer any of the questions I typed. Just enouragement that you can do highschool if that is what would be best for her.

Edited May 6, 2010 by jcooperetc
slow typing...

[Mynyel]

I would definitely homeschool her if at all possible. She sounds tired not behind. Since she has insomnia she will be tired all the time and even in public school she will still seem "behind" socially because since she is so tired she won't be up for any activities. At least at home where she can sleep until noon she can feel better.

As for not wearing make up or wanting a boyfriend? Bah who cares about make-up and who needs a boy anyway??;) My daughter (now mind you she is only 12 but...) isn't interested in make-up and she verbally wonders why other girls fawn over the Jones brothers or that other kids that's out Justin something-or-other.

IMPO...I don't think there is such thing as "socially behind" how do you gauge that? By looking at other teens in school? Do they have insomnia? You can't compare people in that aspect, people are too dynamic.

My sister sends her 2.5 year old to daycare because she needs to "socialize" :001_huh: but that is another thread. Don't get me started there.

I would seriously have to put my foot down about homeschooling through high school, especially in light of the insomnia issues. PS isn't going to be any better and in fact will be worse because she will lose more and more sleep.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[LibraryLover]

I don't think there is a single thing wring with my dd because she is not a social butterfly. I don't consider that 'behind'. Your child is who she is. My child is who she is. I wonder how much stress about having to go to school, or feeling pressure to be someone she is not, is affecting her sleep patterns. She also seems anxious and worried about many things. I don't know if that is coming from her, or from the pressure of others thinking she is 'behind'. Has she ever been seen for anxiety?

Edited May 7, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Jan in SC]

Weren't you going to take her to the Mayo clinic, or somewhere else for an evaluation? (It could have been someone else!) What ever came of that?

 

I think I would focus on the health issue.

[Chris in VA]

Think of it this way--

If you send her to school when she's only getting a few hours of sleep, she is not going to be up for making the effort to engage socially. She'll also get crappy grades, and then what kind of college do you think will take her?:confused: You'll end up with a kid who feels crummy, behind, social awkward, AND exhausted.

 

Keep her home. Use a dvd to teach math, or get a tutor, or do Saxon (written to the student). Let her take a cc class for science when she's 16--she probably only needs 3 sciences to get into college, anyway, and you can use Apologia next year for 9th grade (it's also written to the student and not that hard--even I could understand the chemistry, and that's really saying something). Everything she does at CC will transfer anywhere for high school, and much will transfer for college.

 

Listen, if I can teach hs, you can. Anyone can. Or nearly so.

[Sasharowan]

She could care less about having a boyfriend and quite honestly could care less about making a ton of friends. The group that she had started to hang out with last year at school has really changed and become the kind of girls that she wouldn't want to hang out with. If she were to go back to the private school I'm not sure that she would have friends anyway. If she is in a group of people and there are kids her age she doesn't talk to them (for example at bowling or parties we have gone to with other families). On the other hand, I do feel sorry for since she has no friends around here. Her only friends live out of town. She is capable of making friends but it takes her awhile and she is picky. She doesn't want friends just for the sake of having friends. She hates it when people are fake or when girls act like they are better than everyone else (seems to be pretty typical at that age).

 

She is in karate but there aren't any kids her age in the class. She is also on a bowling league but so far hasn't been able to meet any girls she would like to be friends with. She has either been with all boys or the girls she meets are complete opposite of her (boy crazy, swearing all the time, etc.). She doesn't want to join a church youth group and we don't have any homeschool groups around us. She seems quite content hanging out with her siblings but I still feel at times that she might be lonely since both her younger brother and older sister have friends that they will hang out with. My older daughter will bring her sister along once in a while to the movies, shopping, etc. but it's not the same as having your own group of friends. At this point I don't think that she will meet any friends if we don't send her to high school.\QUOTE]

This was me. I was never really interested in boys, had few friends, and was perfectly happy playing with my little sis's friends (she is 4.5 yrs younger than me). I got along with adults or younger kids better than my peers. I loved reading and often read classics and felt like an outcast at high school. Since having kids, I have learned to just walk up to another mom and talk about kids. Dh is a big help with that since he has never met a stranger.

[Mrs Mungo]

Think of it this way--

If you send her to school when she's only getting a few hours of sleep, she is not going to be up for making the effort to engage socially. She'll also get crappy grades, and then what kind of college do you think will take her?:confused: You'll end up with a kid who feels crummy, behind, social awkward, AND exhausted.

 

Keep her home. Use a dvd to teach math, or get a tutor, or do Saxon (written to the student). Let her take a cc class for science when she's 16--she probably only needs 3 sciences to get into college, anyway, and you can use Apologia next year for 9th grade (it's also written to the student and not that hard--even I could understand the chemistry, and that's really saying something). Everything she does at CC will transfer anywhere for high school, and much will transfer for college.

 

Listen, if I can teach hs, you can. Anyone can. Or nearly so.

 

I agree. With your dh, don't sell it as homeschooling for high school. Sell it as homeschooling for one year to see how it goes. That's what I would do.

[jplain]

:grouphug:

 

You've done what you can on the medical front, so let yourself off the hook there. I don't mean don't continue to pursue diagnosis and treatment. I just mean give yourself a break. In my opinion, the best thing to do as far as school is concerned is to is accept the sleep situation and assume that if change is going to happen, it'll be gradual. In your shoes, I'd definitely homeschool if at all possible. Her day can start at noon, or whenever she wakes up. No big deal.

 

And maybe someday she'll decide to work night shift. After all, we need doctors and nurses and other skilled professionals who are willing to work when others prefer to sleep!

 

Socialization? Eh, whatever. It's overrated, and much of what goes on in high school isn't healthy socialization anyway. I'm an introvert, and I'm much more comfortable socializing now than I was in high school. Exposure to social situations during my many years of schooling did nothing to make it easier. But as I matured into an adult, I grew more comfy in my own skin, and it all worked itself out. I found my happy place. As long as your daughter isn't miserable about her social life, don't let anyone make it an issue. She'll find her own way. Just let her pursue outside interests, as you're already doing. That'll probably satisfy her need for social interaction, even if she doesn't find a kindred spirit.

 

(Slightly off topic, but when I was growing up, my next door neighbor was a high school physics teacher. He believed that high school should start at 10:30 am, not 7:30 am. He felt this way because of research studies that showed teenagers' circadian rhythms are set a few hours later than younger children and older adults. He thought it was a bad idea to force adolescents to be in school early in the morning if their bodies were asking for a different wake/sleep schedule.)

Edited May 6, 2010 by jplain

[Green Vixen]

Hi Mary,

 

I can really relate to what your daughter is going through. I struggled with severe insomnia my entire life. I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome when I was 16 and Fibromyalgia when I was 21. Besides not being able to fall asleep does she have any other health problems? I am new to the board so I don't know if you've already discussed this but is she on any medications to help her sleep? Has she had a sleep study?

 

I was homeschooled from the middle of first grade until freshman year because of my health problems. I really wanted to go to high school and see what it was like so my parents allowed me to. It was very difficult for me to get up every morning and I ended up being so sick I missed my entire junior year and was pretty much on bedrest. If she truly has some health issues going on her getting up early could exacerbate them. People always said if I just got up earlier it would switch around my schedule, it didn't, it just made me worse.

 

Does she want to go to school or would she prefer to stay homeschooled? It sounds like you, your dh and her need to have a honest discussion of her limitations, and the fears each of you have.

 

As for the social aspect, I don't know if throwing a shy girl into high school will make her a social butterfly. It may just make her crawl into her shell even more. Maybe she is just too tired to want to be social right now. I know when I am tired I don't, and I am an extremely social person.

 

Good luck and please feel free to PM if you would like to chat about insomnia :-)

 

Marisa

[Harriet Vane]

Think of it this way--

If you send her to school when she's only getting a few hours of sleep, she is not going to be up for making the effort to engage socially. She'll also get crappy grades, and then what kind of college do you think will take her?:confused: You'll end up with a kid who feels crummy, behind, social awkward, AND exhausted.

 

Keep her home. Use a dvd to teach math, or get a tutor, or do Saxon (written to the student). Let her take a cc class for science when she's 16--she probably only needs 3 sciences to get into college, anyway, and you can use Apologia next year for 9th grade (it's also written to the student and not that hard--even I could understand the chemistry, and that's really saying something). Everything she does at CC will transfer anywhere for high school, and much will transfer for college.

 

Listen, if I can teach hs, you can. Anyone can. Or nearly so.

 

:iagree:

 

The concerns you describe about your daughter socially (none of which seem like real problems) could be totally due to her exhaustion and health struggles. It makes no sense at all to increase her environmental stimuli and workload when you have verifiable, documented proof of her physical challenges. I think your dd will get sicker. Your dh needs to understand her life choices right now in terms of her documented illness--any attempts to make decisions independent of that will end in frustration.

[wapiti]

Have you ever read Weissbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child? He has a section in there re: adolescents on chronotherapy, resetting the sleep clock. p. 230 in my old copy:

 

Let's say your child can easily fall asleep at 2 AM. The therapy consists of forcing him to stay up until 5 AM, and then letting a natural sleep period follow. (Obviously, we don't do this during the school year!) The next time sleep is allowed to start is at 8 AM the following day and at 11 AM the day after that. In other words, you are allowing sleep to occur about three hours later every cycle. Over the next few days, sleep begins at 2 PM, 5 PM, 8 PM and finally 11 PM. Now, keeping careful watch over clock time, you always try to have the child go to sleep at 11 PM. You have shifted the sleep clock around to a more conventional time, and usually this can be maintained by sustaining a regular nighttime sleep schedule.

 

I don't know anything about teenage sleeping, but I've found Weissbluth to be very helpful on anything to do with sleep patterns in younger children.

 

Until you get this straightened out, it doesn't seem to make much sense to attempt public high school. Good luck!!

[tinag]

I have heard good things about this online class:http://spanishonline.okstate.edu/

If you search on these boards you will see some great reviews.

[jujsky]

You may have already answered this question, but could you send her to PS just for math & science? If you give the PS documentation that she has a sleeping disorder, maybe they can schedule her classes back-to-back at the end of the day for you. I know you said the PS is crummy, but if it's just for those 2 classes, will it really hurt her that much?

[Terabith]

Out of random curiousity, could she just work on a "night shift" schedule? In other words, if she doesn't go to bed till 3 or 4 am, can she sleep till noon or so?

[Rosie_0801]

Think of it this way--

If you send her to school when she's only getting a few hours of sleep, she is not going to be up for making the effort to engage socially. She'll also get crappy grades, and then what kind of college do you think will take her?:confused: You'll end up with a kid who feels crummy, behind, social awkward, AND exhausted.

 

 

:iagree: Your hubby has never been a sleep deprived, new mother so perhaps he doesn't understand that willpower is not enough to combat the simple, biological fact that we really do need to sleep to be able to function. Your daughter must be feeling so fragile internally that I'm amazed she can do anything but slouch in her room gnawing on chocolate.

 

I think I'd start looking into careers that will fit in with her sleep schedule. If you can't beat it, you have to join it...

 

Rosie

Edited May 6, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Harriet Vane]

:iagree: Your hubby has never been a sleep deprived, new mother so perhaps he doesn't understand that willpower is not enough to combat the simple, biological fact that we really do need to sleep to be able to function. Your daughter must be feeling so fragile internally that I'm amazed she can do anything but slouch in her room gnawing on chocolate.

 

 

:iagree: Well said.

[lauranc]

I didn't read the other messages, so I hope this isn't a repeat of what someone else has said.. but..

 

a friend of my son's also had terrible insomnia, and they discovered he wasn't making melatonin. He takes it now every night before bed, and it has solved his sleep problems.

 

You said you've spent a lot of $$ and time at dr.s, so you've probably already tried this; but just in case... thought I'd mention it.

 

Good luck,

Laura

[Guest Katia]

Out of random curiousity, could she just work on a "night shift" schedule? In other words, if she doesn't go to bed till 3 or 4 am, can she sleep till noon or so?

 

This is my question as well. If she finally does go to sleep, why in the world are you waking her up? Let the child sleep! Who cares if she sleeps until 1 or 2pm or later in the afternoon/evening, really? If she can get any sleep at all, let her get it! Get something like ACE with the DVDs, because they are self-instructional, and let her do her school work when she's awake, whatever time that may be.

 

My policy is: never wake a sleeping child. And it sounds like this little gal needs her sleep, Mama!

[RanchGirl]

I agree that if she can't make the sleep thing work, what good would it do to send her to school on 3 hours of (disrupted) sleep? I don't see how she could learn anything and it could really damage her health.

 

If you can get her sleeping soundly with good REM cycles at any time of day for 8 hours, I would plan everything else around that. I would also ask her what she wants to do as far as social opportunities and ask her to do some research on how she would like to learn the topics you mentioned - science, Spanish, etc. - so that she is taking some of the ownership and you are working together to develop a plan. It could involve online classes, tutors, local community college, etc. There are tons of options and you can definitely do it quite well.

 

I was also going to mention melatonin and exercise outdoors, they have really helped me start to sleep better after 10 years of disrupted sleep... but I assume you've gone way beyond that already.

[fairfarmhand]

high school.

 

I was considering sending my oldest dd to Jr. High this next fall till I read it.

It was SO helpful.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Complete-Successfully-Year-Old-Learning/dp/0761520937/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273197705&sr=8-1

[LibraryLover]

Explian why it matters what time she falls asleep or wakes up?

[AnitaMcC]

After her latest sleep study the doctor said that her clock is basically off 5 hours. So for her even though I'm not waking her up until 10:00 it is actually like waking up most people at 5 am! He also thinks that since she is so sleep deprived that is why she is also waking up during the night so many times (lasting 20 minutes to an hour every time). The study showed very little deep sleep.

 

 

Have you tried melatonin???

 

My Dd has insomnia (always been a night owl and not a morning person!!!). she can't fall asleep until midnight or later, and wakes up around 3-4am. She goes back to sleep around 5-6 am, and would sleep until noon or later if we let her. Middle school was very hard... she had to get the bus at 7am. She missed alot of school due to the insomnia and headaches from lack of sleep. One reason we like homeschooling... she does not have to get up so early.

 

Anyway, the melatonin helps her fall asleep sooner than she normally would, even though she still wakes up around 3am for a few hours. She takes the melatonin around 9-9:30pm and is usually asleep by 10:00pm. So this way she gets to sleep about 5 hrs initially. We let her sleep until about 8:30-9am week days (noon on weekends if she is needing catch-up sleep).

[TravelingChris]

Homeschooling my high school daughter who had bad insomnia, non -stop migraines, and other health issues has been the best thing for her. Yes, she lost a year of math and science (partially made up) when she had a seven month long headache. But she is finishing eleventh grade and doing very well. We just let her get better. This year she had a very demanding year and she kept up with it. By homeschooling, I can adjust to her schedule if she has an night of insomnia. Her education and her social life have been much better as a result of being able to get better without the added pressure of school. She won't do well in school if she is still a severe insomniac. JUst take it one step at a time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

As someone with chronic health problems that started when I was a teen, this is about a lot more than her high school years. Forcing her body to take on a load that it can't handle could influence the course of her health for years. Please keep her home where she can learn some at her own pace while you continue to search for medical help for her.

[Peela]

I understand you have tried everything you can think of for the sleep issue. If it is related to adrenals or underlying anxiety issues (I cant remember your whole story but I do remember that you have posted here before about it) then she may need help to learn to deal with those before the sleep issues will heal- they are most likely a secondary issue rathe than the primary one.

 

For the school issue...do your community colleges do any online courses? Is there something she could do by correspondence that would keep her moving forward and learning and get some sort of accreditation?

I have a 15yo doing online courses (here in Australia- different system obviously) which make a highschool certificate redundant. And next year when she is 16 she will be going to our equivalent of community colleges to do a diploma- she will end up 2 full years ahead of kids in school, yet it won't be a heavy load for her. She doesn't need to go through the system that burns out the normal school kids, let alone any ones with health issues.

Can you do some more research about alternative pathways for her? She may not be able to cope with much- but something?

 

As for making friends...it does sound to me as if she could do with a little push in that direction, but you can only do so much, and school is not necessarily the answer.

 

Sounds like you all need to come to a deep acceptance that the situation is as it is and she wont be able to go through a normal pathway. What does she want to do? I can understand her father's perspective- if I saw a 15yo not making friends and being clingy to her mother, and she was homeschooled, I would wonder if she is getting enough socialisation too, to tell the truth.Sometimes dads see patterns between the mum and the kids that the mum can't necessarily see because its her blind spot- but they can be off in their solving of it too. And your situation is unique.

 

Are you yourself an anxious person? Is your dd picking up on what is going on inside you and internalising it? Is she living out some part of the family energy that no one is expressing? Sometimes one child takes on something no one else will. Just looking for a deeper pattern...you dont need to answer me.

 

Its definitely a tricky situation. And you can only do so much in such situations. As I was sayng in another thread, sometimes we are too close to see what is needed and we need to step back and let go of the outcome.

[In the Rain]

I apologize in advance for posting without reading the whole thread- but I only have a few minutes.

 

Someone on this board recommended "Say Good Night to Insomnia". It was really helpful to me and 3 of my extended family members. One of them found the book more helpful than his sleep specialist.

 

Maybe you have tried the book. Maybe you suggested it. ;) I just wanted to make sure you had heard of it. It worked wonders for us.

 

:grouphug: to you and your dd. Insomnia is truly life altering.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

My 15 year old dd still has insomnia. We have tried everything and nothing has changed. I wake her up around 10:00 every day but she is still getting very little sleep. Her new sleep specialist really thought he would be able to help us but so far there hasn't been any change.

 

 

 

I havent read other replys so if this is a repeat I appologize)

 

You said she has a sleep specialist, has she been at a sleep clinic? Where they watch her sleep pattern over night? I would look into that. I know not all areas have one, if she has not done that yet, look for the closest (even if it is a weekend trip) they are amazing at pinpointing problems! They hook sensors to her head while she is sleeping and simply watch what happens to her brain (sounds scary but its not, my best friend did it) THey pinpointed her problem the first night (that IS typical). I would highly recommend looking into that!

[emubird]

My kids are both like this -- can't fall asleep until after midnight on a GOOD night. Usually it's later. When my daughter had an 8 AM class 3 days a week, she was just a wreck. She could not adjust, no matter how disciplined she was. She can be dead tired but she just lays in bed unable to sleep until her body decides it's the right time.

 

This gets even worse if they've eaten anything they're allergic to.

 

We've had them stay up very late, then try to cycle their clocks back around to the "right" time, but even that didn't work (despite how experts will tell you this will work.)

 

For some kids, it's the distractions that are keeping them up and they need to just give up the texting after midnight. For others, there seems to be some deepseated biological cause.

 

This is the major reason we pulled our eldest out of school in the first place. She had to be on the bus at 7 AM every morning. She needed 12 hours of sleep a night. We had her going to bed before my husband got home from work. She never saw him. And this only worked through 1st grade. By 2nd grade, she just wasn't sleeping. She'd lay awake until after midnight, and then go to sleep, only to be dragged out of bed for the school bus a few hours later. She couldn't even stay asleep after awhile because she was too tired to sleep. I couldn't sleep because I was always half awake listening for her to start running around the house with sleepwalking/night terrors. We were afraid she'd run out of the house and end up who knew where.

 

Everything got better when we just let the kids sleep when they needed to sleep. And they still need about 12 hours of sleep a night.

 

Our decision was to skip the school thing.

 

And yes, our relatives are appalled. Now I understand this from my side of the family, where everyone is raring to go at the crack of dawn. But my husband's family are usually up til all hours and complaining about how little sleep they got.

[Hedgehogs4]

man...this is really hard...i don't say this flippantly at all, but have you taken her for healing prayer? sleep is such a precious thing to our health in so many ways, i would do that as well, if you haven't already.

[Only me]

Thank you for all of the replies. To answer a few questions I know there were many so I won't get them all. We have tried melatonin but it doesn't help at all. It just makes her more tired the next day. She saw a psychiatrist and that doctor didn't think the insomnia was related to anxiety or other issues. She had two actual sleep studies (1 year apart with two different doctors) with the electrode things on her head, etc. They both basically showed the same thing: She is having all 4 stages of sleep, which is a good thing. She has a lot less REM sleep then she should have. She seldom gets into the deepest stage of sleep. She has delayed onset sleep syndrome (meaning it usually takes her 1-3 hours at least to fall asleep). During the 2nd sleep study she actually fell asleep much earlier but she wasn't able to fall asleep until 5 am the night before so she was completely exhausted. Both studies showed that she woke up several times a night lasting from 20 minutes to over an hour. So it seems that not only is her circadian rhythm messed up but that she wakes up several times a night.

 

I had another talk with my dh this morning. I brought up the point that if she is only getting 2 hours of sleep a night she won't care about the social aspect of school and of course she will be miserable with that small amount of sleep. Another concern of his was that she needs to learn do deal with difficult problems, difficult teachers, etc. and that she won't learn that at home. I told him that she can do that in college and is a life long experience.

 

I brought up the fact that when she turns 16 she could start to take community college courses and that it will go toward her associate degree. He seemed to like that idea.

 

Now that he seems a little bit open to not sending her to high school next year I need to come up with a plan for next year. I think if I have a solid plan that he will be more open to this. Of course if she miraculously starts sleeping well before next fall then our plans will change.

 

Right now I would like to focus on the main subjects and can decide about any electives or additional classes later:

 

algebra 2, physical science, world history, english, Spanish

 

I would be fine teaching her world history at home. I'm thinking about having her do MUS algebra 2. She seems to be doing well with MUS geometry. My other alternative would be for her to take an online class since this isn't a strong subject for me. We would do literature at home but I would probably have her take an online writing class.

 

I also struggle with science so I'm not sure what to do about that. She did Apologia biology this year but I'm sorry to say that I wasn't the best teacher. She would read the chapters and watch some of the lectures and virtual labs on DIVE CD. After that we would discuss the chapter and she would take the test. I would let her use the book for the test. I didn't feel quite right about that but truthfully by oldest daughter did that in her biology class at the private school so I guess it isn't that out of the norm. I also think that was all she was capable of this year since it has been so difficult for her to learn and concentrate. She also missed doing the actual labs.

 

My oldest daughter went to the public high school. She really didn't like it and we especially had problems with her science teacher. Luckily he retired so we wouldn't have to deal with him. They run on the block system meaning that all of the classes are 90 minutes but only last one semester. I was throwing around the idea of having her take physical science first semester and Spanish second semester. Since it would only be one class we wouldn't really have to deal with the school as much. I'm open to other suggestions. I really hate having to outsource most of her classes but I'm worried about being able to teach her those subjects. I will also need to come up with a few more credits so I would appreciate any suggestions.

[Lolly]

Thank you for all of the replies. To answer a few questions I know there were many so I won't get them all. We have tried melatonin but it doesn't help at all. It just makes her more tired the next day. She saw a psychiatrist and that doctor didn't think the insomnia was related to anxiety or other issues. She had two actual sleep studies (1 year apart with two different doctors) with the electrode things on her head, etc. They both basically showed the same thing: She is having all 4 stages of sleep, which is a good thing. She has a lot less REM sleep then she should have. She seldom gets into the deepest stage of sleep. She has delayed onset sleep syndrome (meaning it usually takes her 1-3 hours at least to fall asleep). During the 2nd sleep study she actually fell asleep much earlier but she wasn't able to fall asleep until 5 am the night before so she was completely exhausted. Both studies showed that she woke up several times a night lasting from 20 minutes to over an hour. So it seems that not only is her circadian rhythm messed up but that she wakes up several times a night.

 

I had another talk with my dh this morning. I brought up the point that if she is only getting 2 hours of sleep a night she won't care about the social aspect of school and of course she will be miserable with that small amount of sleep. Another concern of his was that she needs to learn do deal with difficult problems, difficult teachers, etc. and that she won't learn that at home. I told him that she can do that in college and is a life long experience.

 

I brought up the fact that when she turns 16 she could start to take community college courses and that it will go toward her associate degree. He seemed to like that idea.

 

Now that he seems a little bit open to not sending her to high school next year I need to come up with a plan for next year. I think if I have a solid plan that he will be more open to this. Of course if she miraculously starts sleeping well before next fall then our plans will change.

 

Right now I would like to focus on the main subjects and can decide about any electives or additional classes later:

 

algebra 2, physical science, world history, english, Spanish

 

I would be fine teaching her world history at home. I'm thinking about having her do MUS algebra 2. She seems to be doing well with MUS geometry. My other alternative would be for her to take an online class since this isn't a strong subject for me. We would do literature at home but I would probably have her take an online writing class.

 

I also struggle with science so I'm not sure what to do about that. She did Apologia biology this year but I'm sorry to say that I wasn't the best teacher. She would read the chapters and watch some of the lectures and virtual labs on DIVE CD. After that we would discuss the chapter and she would take the test. I would let her use the book for the test. I didn't feel quite right about that but truthfully by oldest daughter did that in her biology class at the private school so I guess it isn't that out of the norm. I also think that was all she was capable of this year since it has been so difficult for her to learn and concentrate. She also missed doing the actual labs.

 

My oldest daughter went to the public high school. She really didn't like it and we especially had problems with her science teacher. Luckily he retired so we wouldn't have to deal with him. They run on the block system meaning that all of the classes are 90 minutes but only last one semester. I was throwing around the idea of having her take physical science first semester and Spanish second semester. Since it would only be one class we wouldn't really have to deal with the school as much. I'm open to other suggestions. I really hate having to outsource most of her classes but I'm worried about being able to teach her those subjects. I will also need to come up with a few more credits so I would appreciate any suggestions.

 

We have been using BJU dvd's for science and Spanish. It has worked extremely well. I have found that I do need to watch the lessons with my dc. Basically, I am taking the class along with them other than doing the homework and tests! Since it is cheaper to just purchase the whole year than two classes, one of my dd's has used their algebra book this year also. It is also excellent.