This article was on yahoo.."Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution"

[Gamom3]

By DYLAN LOVAN, Associated Press Writer – 7 mins ago

LOUISVILLE, Ky. – Home-school mom Susan Mule wishes she hadn't taken a friend's advice and tried a textbook from a popular Christian publisher for her 10-year-old's biology lessons.

Mule's precocious daughter Elizabeth excels at science and has been studying tarantulas since she was 5. But she watched Elizabeth's excitement turn to confusion when they reached the evolution section of the book from Apologia Educational Ministries, which disputed Charles Darwin's theory.

"I thought she was going to have a coronary," Mule said of her daughter, who is now 16 and taking college courses in Houston. "She's like, 'This is not true!'"

Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction."

"The majority of home-schoolers self-identify as evangelical Christians," said Ian Slatter, a spokesman for the Home School Legal Defense Association. "Most home-schoolers will definitely have a sort of creationist component to their home-school program."

Those who don't, however, often feel isolated and frustrated from trying to find a textbook that fits their beliefs.

Two of the best-selling biology textbooks stack the deck against evolution, said some science educators who reviewed sections of the books at the request of The Associated Press.

"I feel fairly strongly about this. These books are promulgating lies to kids," said Jerry Coyne, an ecology and evolution professor at the University of Chicago.

The textbook publishers defend their books as well-rounded lessons on evolution and its shortcomings. One of the books doesn't attempt to mask disdain for Darwin and evolutionary science.

"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

The textbook delivers a religious ultimatum to young readers and parents, warning in its "History of Life" chapter that a "Christian worldview ... is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is."

When the AP asked about that passage, university spokesman Brian Scoles said the sentence made it into the book because of an editing error and will be removed from future editions.

The size of the business of home-school texts isn't clear because the textbook industry is fragmented and privately held publishers don't give out sales numbers. Slatter said home-school material sales reach about $1 billion annually in the U.S.

Publishers are well aware of the market, said Jay Wile, a former chemistry professor in Indianapolis who helped launch the Apologia curriculum in the early 1990s.

"If I'm planning to write a curriculum, and I want to write it in a way that will appeal to home-schoolers, I'm going to at least find out what my demographic is," Wile said.

In Kentucky, Lexington home-schooler Mia Perry remembers feeling disheartened while flipping through a home-school curriculum catalog and finding so many religious-themed textbooks.

"We're not religious home-schoolers, and there's somewhat of a feeling of being outnumbered," said Perry, who has home-schooled three of her four children after removing her oldest child from a public school because of a health condition.

Perry said she cobbled together her own curriculum after some mainstream publishers told her they would not sell directly to home-schooling parents.

Wendy Womack, another Lexington home-school mother, said the only scientifically credible curriculum she's found is from the Maryland-based Calvert School, which has been selling study-at-home materials for more than 100 years.

Apologia and Bob Jones University Press say their science books sell well. Apologia's "Exploring Creation" biology textbook retails for $65, while Bob Jones' "Biology" Third Edition lists at $52.

Coyne and Virginia Tech biology professor Duncan Porter reviewed excerpts from the Apologia and Bob Jones biology textbooks, which are equivalent to ninth- and 10th-grade biology lessons. Porter said he would give the books an F.

"If this is the way kids are home-schooled then they're being shortchanged, both rationally and in terms of biology," Coyne said. He argued that the books may steer students away from careers in biology or the study of the history of the earth.

Wile countered that Coyne "feels compelled to lie in order to prop up a failing hypothesis (evolution). We definitely do not lie to the students. We tell them the facts that people like Dr. Coyne would prefer to cover up."

Adam Brown's parents say their 16-year-old son's belief in the Bible's creation story isn't deterring him from pursuing a career in marine biology. His parents, Ken and Polly Brown, taught him at their Cedar Grove, Ind., home using the Apologia curriculum and other science texts.

Polly Brown said her son would gladly take college courses that include evolution, and he'll be able to provide the expected answers even though he disagrees.

"He probably knows it better than the kids who have been taught evolution all through public school," Polly Brown said. "But that is in order for him to understand both sides of that argument because he will face it throughout his higher education."

___

Apologia Educational Ministries: http://www.apologia.com

Bob Jones University Press: http://www.bjupress.com/page/HS+Home

Jerry Coyne's blog, "Why Evolution is True": http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/

[tex-mex]

Yup, read it... it does bring up a good point. Homeschooling is a wide spectrum with wide range of beliefs. I am a Christian (old earth POV) tried Apologia for son's middle school years and was turned off by some of the inaccuracies from both a religious and scientific POV. Some people love Apologia, and that is great. I had to look elsewhere. :confused:

[k10coon]

I read this too - I tried to respond there, but for some reason couldn't.

 

My question is, what was the point of the article? Was it meant as a call to textbook publishers to start selling direct? Or was it a bash toward Christian materials? If you use Christian materials, God may be mentioned once or twice!

 

I'm sure most folks are aware of Amazon and Ebay, so secular materials are very easily available.

 

So, like I said, I really don't know the point of this article. By the AP no less.

[Veritaserum]

Those who don't, however, often feel isolated and frustrated from trying to find a textbook that fits their beliefs.

 

Well, ain't that the truth! :tongue_smilie:

[Orthodox6]

Thanks for sharing the article !

 

Frankly, it's a lose-lose situation for some homeschoolers. I don't want to teach from materials which hurl the Bible in my face like a weapon, when the subject material is math or science. (or for anything else, to be honest) As for young earth vs. old earth, I have not yet detected how that even matters at all. I do reject macro-evolution and the attendant opinions which constitute the only science approach available through public schools. Those textbooks often equal the Christian books in smug didacticts.

 

So I have a very hard time selecting science teaching materials when it comes to life sciences, astronomy and, to a lesser extent, geology. I flip-flop, sometimes using a Protestant textbook and correcting it, sometimes using an atheistic textbook and correcting it. Science is a pain in the neck for moderates ! I'm happiest teaching physics, chemistry, and physical science.

[KrissiK]

"If this is the way kids are home-schooled then they're being shortchanged, both rationally and in terms of biology," Coyne said. He argued that the books may steer students away from careers in biology or the study of the history of the earth.

 

I'm not sure I understand what he is saying here. Is he saying that one must believe in evolution in order to fully understand the totality of what biology is? What does he mean by rationally? Yes, as a Creationist, I do take things by faith, (although I do not believe that my faith is irrational) but if you believe in evolution you need to take things by faith as well because no one was there to see what happened and evolution is not reproducible in a laboratory. And, contrary to what scientists say, evolutionary theory is not rock solid. There are a lot of holes and questions, too, but I am not trying to make this thread into a Creation/evolution debate. I know that Creation science has it's holes, too. I'm just sayin'!

[SonshineLearner]

And, as I remember, Darwin changed at least some of his beliefs as he aged.

 

:)

[ThatCyndiGirl]

And, as I remember, Darwin changed at least some of his beliefs as he aged.

 

 

 

His family members (who WERE at his deathbed, while she who proclaimed his conversation and renunciation of his beliefs was NOT) deny those claims:

 

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm

[SonshineLearner]

K:-)

[Tressa]

I am not quite sure what the point of the article is. There are a lot of people that don't care for the Apologia textbooks on this board, and have to find something else. You could remove Apologia and insert any other cirriculum in the article and write the exact same article. The reporter finds a homeschooler who doesn't like the text. Then, you find a college professor that doesn't like the text to validate the homeschooler and the reporter. A reporter could just as easily gone in the other direction.

 

This just seems like one of those articles to stir emotions. I can appreciate that some homeschoolers have a hard time finding cirriculum to suit their needs, but does the average non-homeschooling person really care? I think this article was written to add some fuel to the creation/evolution debate and if it turns people off homeschooling even better.

[Parrothead]

You could remove Apologia and insert any other cirriculum in the article and write the exact same article.

Not necessarily. There are now (finally) secular materials for science.

 

I won't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my house. It takes me longest to put together lesson plans and goals for science because there hasn't been until recently a good easy to use secular science program available to homeschoolers.

 

As for the article, it seems like the entire point is to lump all homschooling science books together as pro-creation and paint that as a bad thing.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks for sharing the article !

 

Frankly, it's a lose-lose situation for some homeschoolers. I don't want to teach from materials which hurl the Bible in my face like a weapon, when the subject material is math or science. (or for anything else, to be honest) As for young earth vs. old earth, I have not yet detected how that even matters at all.

It matters because the YE Creationists materials are teaching things that seem ridiculous when compared with the facts. I wish I didn't have to choose between YE or Evolution.

[Mergath]

I'm not sure I understand what he is saying here. Is he saying that one must believe in evolution in order to fully understand the totality of what biology is? What does he mean by rationally? Yes, as a Creationist, I do take things by faith, (although I do not believe that my faith is irrational) but if you believe in evolution you need to take things by faith as well because no one was there to see what happened and evolution is not reproducible in a laboratory. And, contrary to what scientists say, evolutionary theory is not rock solid. There are a lot of holes and questions, too, but I am not trying to make this thread into a Creation/evolution debate. I know that Creation science has it's holes, too. I'm just sayin'!

 

Actually, you really do need to have a solid understanding of the factual evidence supporting and the mechanics of evolution in order to fully grasp modern biology, and the existence of macroevolution is pretty much a given at this point within the scientific community, but that's a whole 'nother conversation. :)

 

I'm not sure what the point of the article was. We're all going to pass down what we believe, and there are resources aplenty out there for all of us.

[Slartibartfast]

It matters because the YE Creationists materials are teaching things that seem ridiculous when compared with the facts. I wish I didn't have to choose between YE or Evolution.

 

I agree.

 

I use secular materials because of the YE issues.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Sis

[asta]

Yes, one can find secular science texts. One can find them all over the place.

 

Now find the solutions/teacher's manuals. Or find them for less than $100 a piece.

 

I finally gave up and started buying from obscure places. Like Scotland (HS kids buy their own texts from the local bookstore, and it includes the answers in the back). And old, OOP university books where diehard fans have posted the solutions on the internet. I've even gone so far as to call publishers of high school and university texts directly and, using the name of our homeschool (which sounds like a hoity private school) pay full, retail price for a text/teacher's manual/testing package. OUCH.

 

I never tell publishing houses I am a homeschooler. I tell them I am a lecturer at a small school or something similar. I also never call the BIG guys (Holt, Prentice Hall, etc.) - they'll never sell to an individual - they always want a purchase order. This is getting harder and harder as the big guys eat up the little guys.

 

 

asta

[tex-mex]

It matters because the YE Creationists materials are teaching things that seem ridiculous when compared with the facts. I wish I didn't have to choose between YE or Evolution.

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

I also never call the BIG guys (Holt, Prentice Hall, etc.) - they'll never sell to an individual - they always want a purchase order. This is getting harder and harder as the big guys eat up the little guys.

 

 

Prentice Hall sells to homeschoolers through Pearson. I bought our science books *and* teacher manuals from them. Just a friendly FYI. :D:seeya:

 

Oh, eta: I think the article is completely stupid. I don't think they have any accurate way to track the most popular programs/curricula used by homeschoolers.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Peela]

Actually, you really do need to have a solid understanding of the factual evidence supporting and the mechanics of evolution in order to fully grasp modern biology, and the existence of macroevolution is pretty much a given at this point within the scientific community, but that's a whole 'nother conversation. :)

 

 

:iagree:

I also thin kthe article is a bit old hat for most of us- rehashing an old issue. I guess it is making a point to the general public, but the point has been made many times before and i am a bitover it.

You cant argue with people's beliefs, honestly, so there is no point in trying.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

You cant argue with people's beliefs, honestly, so there is no point in trying.

This statement always puzzles me. If you can't change people's beliefs then why do I know so many that did change their beliefs? I know people from a lot of different religions and walks of life (Catholic, Protestant, Wiccan, gang members, guerillas, prisoners, pop stars) that became Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Angel]

By DYLAN LOVAN, Associated Press Writer – 7 mins ago

 

Those who don't, however, often feel isolated and frustrated from trying to find a textbook that fits their beliefs.

 

I guess I'm confused by this. Every public school in America has a secular text. Every public school in America teaches Evolution in one way or another. How can there be a lack of secular texts? In all subjects? :confused: I thought that publishers like Apologia were for a small population of specific people. When the old earth/evolution/creation/young earth debates happen on this board. More people are for evolution/old earth than against. Young earth/creation seems to be a minority.

 

I also find it odd that someone wouldn't know what was in an Apologia or BJU text. Most people on this board are research crazy :lol: I'm unsure how someone could possibly pick up a curriculum and start using it without knowing what's in it. Whether secular or Christian, most of us seem to keep an eyeball out for what we do/don't want.

 

As for whether young earth people are teaching "ridiculous" things, well, we all have our own opinions about what is "ridiculous." Any thing not in your own belief system could be considered "ridiculous," but that doesn't make it wrong. Some of us tell our kids that a big, fat, red-suited guy makes all the toys in the world with elves and then flies all around the world in less than 24 hours to deliver those said toys. :D Anything can be made to sound ridiculous. It's in the eye of the beholder.

[Jenny in Atl]

 

I guess I'm confused by this. Every public school in America has a secular text. Every public school in America teaches Evolution in one way or another. How can there be a lack of secular texts? In all subjects? :confused:

 

I think for the subject of science, it's hard to find good secular material for the homeschooling family. Most of the secular text are for the classroom setting, for those who have access to a full lab. Sure if $ were no issue, I could follow some texts that I've found, but most are frustratingly hard to reproduce in the homeschool setting.

 

Hopefully, as the numbers of secular or old Earth homeschoolers grow, so will the resources for subjects like science.

[Lovedtodeath]

Angel, I am sorry I offended you. I tried to think of a different way of wording things and could not. Yes, there are many, many ridiculous things that people teach in this world.

[astrid]

Not necessarily. There are now (finally) secular materials for science.

 

I won't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my house. It takes me longest to put together lesson plans and goals for science because there hasn't been until recently a good easy to use secular science program available to homeschoolers.

 

As for the article, it seems like the entire point is to lump all homschooling science books together as pro-creation and paint that as a bad thing.

 

:iagree:

[cathmom]

And there are some people who don't believe in evolution who STILL don't like Apologia and wouldn't touch BJU with a hundred foot pole!

[Orthodox6]

And there are some people who don't believe in evolution who STILL don't like Apologia and wouldn't touch BJU with a hundred foot pole!

 

:iagree:

 

Yup. That's what I tried to explain, when I said that we don't subscribe to macroevolution, yet don't care for the available textbooks with a mindset to promote.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes... I agree too. :)

[Crimson Wife]

I also find it odd that someone wouldn't know what was in an Apologia or BJU text. Most people on this board are research crazy :lol: I'm unsure how someone could possibly pick up a curriculum and start using it without knowing what's in it. Whether secular or Christian, most of us seem to keep an eyeball out for what we do/don't want.

 

I believe the HS who hang out here are the ones who do more research than the average parent. I'm a research junkie so I always ask folks why the picked whatever they're using. I've been surprised how many people just use whatever textbook somebody at their church recommended to them. I can certainly understand wanting to use a Christian book, but there are so many options out there these days besides just the big name publishers.

[Angel]

Angel, I am sorry I offended you. I tried to think of a different way of wording things and could not. Yes, there are many, many ridiculous things that people teach in this world.

 

Not offended ;) No worries. I was just trying to throw out there that what seems ridiculous to one person, certainly may not to another. It is hard to word these posts without becoming inflamatory and still get across what you are saying. :D

 

And to the PP, I didn't know that those school texts were not available to homeschoolers.

[Mergath]

This statement always puzzles me. If you can't change people's beliefs then why do I know so many that did change their beliefs? I know people from a lot of different religions and walks of life (Catholic, Protestant, Wiccan, gang members, guerillas, prisoners, pop stars) that became Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

A person's beliefs can naturally evolve over time as they grow as an individual, but one person cannot force another to believe something different.

[Joanne]

I regularly see public school science texts, and often sets including the answer keys and teacher's manuals, at used bookstores.

[Lovedtodeath]

A person's beliefs can naturally evolve over time as they grow as an individual, but one person cannot force another to believe something different.

Well. yeah, okay... I guess that is what that statement means. Thanks.

[lionfamily1999]

I regularly see public school science texts, and often sets including the answer keys and teacher's manuals, at used bookstores.

I've bought some from ebay and others from amazon. Granted, the teacher's manuals are EX.PEN.SIVE., but if you really want it you'll pay it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the article :shrug: it just sounds like another attempt to make hsers and Christians sound like they can't possibly do a good job. Now, the secular hsers (as I read the article) COULD do a good job if the Christians would stop bogarting all the texts, but (the way I read it) apparently they can't, because the Christians continue to make it impossible to create secular materials.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

because the Christians continue to make it impossible to create secular materials.

How is that?

[lionfamily1999]

How is that?

That's how the article read to me. It's as though the plethora of Christian material has some how made it impossible to have secular materials. What do the two have to do with each other? Are we complaining because Christian companies refuse to create secular material? IOW, I don't understand why the Christian materials had to be mentioned at all, if this was a complaint that hs material is lacking for the secular market, then say it is, but making it seem like the Christian materials are culpable for the lack of secular material doesn't make any sense to me.

 

It's just what I took the article to say.

[justamouse]

:glare:I use Apologia and hate it. BUT my daughter loves it. :glare::glare: As a teacher, she really likes his voice. :glare::glare::glare:

 

My solution is to make her read lots of stuff about evolution and question her often to make sure she's not absorbing the worldview within the text. I'm not happy with my solution, either. :glare::glare:

Edited March 7, 2010 by justamouse

[Miss Marple]

Not sure how they decided to interview these particular homeschoolers, but it is, frankly, misleading, IMO to assume that all home-schoolers purchase material marketed as "home-school" curriculum. Homeschoolers have access to just about every text available in the public market. While it may be a bit more difficult to get the accompanying helps, most publishers now work with homeschoolers.

 

We have, personally, used a variety of materials (religious and secular) and I have never felt obligated to use home-school specific programs. I do think that there was a time when home school materials were a bit inferior, but today that isn't the case. I simply choose the material that I feel will best allow my student to learn.

 

Sounds to me like the reporter had an ax to grind and these particular homeschool parents didn't do their homework to find the programs that would work for them.

 

I do feel, though, that it is essential for a high schooler to understand the theory of evolution so that he/she can discuss it intelligently. It's sort of like someone saying that a certain book is full of fallacies, yet they have never read it - they've only listened to someone else say it is fallacious.

[monk17]

That's how the article read to me. It's as though the plethora of Christian material has some how made it impossible to have secular materials. What do the two have to do with each other? Are we complaining because Christian companies refuse to create secular material? IOW, I don't understand why the Christian materials had to be mentioned at all, if this was a complaint that hs material is lacking for the secular market, then say it is, but making it seem like the Christian materials are culpable for the lack of secular material doesn't make any sense to me.

 

It's just what I took the article to say.

 

I don't think the article was blaming Christians or publishers of Christian based text books, it's just a fact of a capitalistic market driven economy. The majority of home schoolers say they want Christian based curriculum, the publishers are out to make money so they fill that need. Secular based curriculum is in short supply for home schoolers, so they tend to use the curriculum that is more "yea God" and then teach secular. They have just enough mention of God in them to be classified as religious but not BJ.

 

As to science to me it's a tempest in a tea cup. So much more to science besides big bang vs the apple tree.

[lionfamily1999]

I don't think the article was blaming Christians or publishers of Christian based text books, it's just a fact of a capitalistic market driven economy. The majority of home schoolers say they want Christian based curriculum, the publishers are out to make money so they fill that need. Secular based curriculum is in short supply for home schoolers, so they tend to use the curriculum that is more "yea God" and then teach secular. They have just enough mention of God in them to be classified as religious but not BJ.

 

As to science to me it's a tempest in a tea cup. So much more to science besides big bang vs the apple tree.

I can be a little sensitive, so you're most likely right ;)

[bethben]

It seemed to me that the point of the article was to show that in their opinion, homeschoolers are teaching false information in science. I personally see it as a bash against Christian homeschoolers saying in effect that things they use for science are flat out lies. You could see that people picked up on this with some of the comments such as someone saying homeschoolers also admit that the holocaust never happened. So, I don't see it hurting the publishers of creation science materials but more so hurting the homeschool movement. It's like focusing on families that wait to teach their kids formal math or grammar or insert subject here until a certain age and using them as the example of all homeschoolers. It does a diservice to us all to be stereotyped. We're all very different in our approaches and you really can't lump us all together.

Beth

[Lovedtodeath]

This is what I was trying to get across.

 

Commenting on claims that the creative days were only 24 literal hours in length, molecular biologist Francis Collins remarks: "Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history."

[TXMary2]

Not necessarily. There are now (finally) secular materials for science.

 

I won't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my house. It takes me longest to put together lesson plans and goals for science because there hasn't been until recently a good easy to use secular science program available to homeschoolers.

 

As for the article, it seems like the entire point is to lump all homschooling science books together as pro-creation and paint that as a bad thing.

 

 

I don't see why Apologia or even Bob Jones would be unusable. It isn't as if the experiments are going to "prove" there is a God. Why couldn't you ignore the "God created everything" aspects or use them as teachable moments with your children? The science is science. I don't understand the big deal. When I use secular materials or come across something evolutionary in nature (which happens often) I use those moments as starting points for discussions etc. I don't totally discount everything in the book or tv program because it has "fairy tale evolutionist c**p."

[H.S. Burrow]

I also never call the BIG guys (Holt, Prentice Hall, etc.) - they'll never sell to an individual - they always want a purchase order. This is getting harder and harder as the big guys eat up the little guys.

 

 

asta

 

 

(Bolded emphasis is mine.)

 

I just wanted to say that I think this may be dependent upon where you live and your state's homeschool laws/recognition. I live in Texas and all homeschools are considered private schools.

 

I have never had a problem ordering directly from Holt or Prentice Hall. :)

 

ETA: Sorry, I didn't see MrsMungo's post saying essentially the same thing. :o

Edited March 8, 2010 by H.S. Burrow

[jujsky]

I don't see why Apologia or even Bob Jones would be unusable. It isn't as if the experiments are going to "prove" there is a God. Why couldn't you ignore the "God created everything" aspects or use them as teachable moments with your children? The science is science. I don't understand the big deal. When I use secular materials or come across something evolutionary in nature (which happens often) I use those moments as starting points for discussions etc. I don't totally discount everything in the book or tv program because it has "fairy tale evolutionist c**p."

 

I did a ton of reading last night on the Creationist view-point because I'd been told by many people on another site that there is indeed scientific proof for this view and I wanted to educate myself on these theories. After reading various articles and research as well as scientific articles that use the scientific method to refute these views, I have to agree with the other poster that I also wouldn't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my home. I am sure they contain some solid science, but Creationism goes so much further than I initially thought! It does not simply refute evolution, but large aspects of geology & astronomy as well. I think I would have to pick apart the text to such an extreme that it wouldn't be (for my family's purposes) worth using.

 

As for the comment about how the experiments won't prove there is a God so we don't have to worry, I am sure many secular people are not opposed to actual scientific proof of His existence. If science could offer me indisputable proof that God exists and He cares at all what I do, I probably wouldn't be an agnostic anymore :001_smile:

[TXMary2]

I did a ton of reading last night on the Creationist view-point because I'd been told by many people on another site that there is indeed scientific proof for this view and I wanted to educate myself on these theories. After reading various articles and research as well as scientific articles that use the scientific method to refute these views, I have to agree with the other poster that I also wouldn't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my home. I am sure they contain some solid science, but Creationism goes so much further than I initially thought! It does not simply refute evolution, but large aspects of geology & astronomy as well. I think I would have to pick apart the text to such an extreme that it wouldn't be (for my family's purposes) worth using.

 

As for the comment about how the experiments won't prove there is a God so we don't have to worry, I am sure many secular people are not opposed to actual scientific proof of His existence. If science could offer me indisputable proof that God exists and He cares at all what I do, I probably wouldn't be an agnostic anymore :001_smile:

 

 

Just out of curiousity, what sites did you do your brief research at? Surely, you didn't get a full creationist education in one evening from a few random websites?

[happyWImom]

 

I guess I'm confused by this. Every public school in America has a secular text. Every public school in America teaches Evolution in one way or another. How can there be a lack of secular texts? In all subjects? :confused: I thought that publishers like Apologia were for a small population of specific people. When the old earth/evolution/creation/young earth debates happen on this board. More people are for evolution/old earth than against. Young earth/creation seems to be a minority.

 

I also find it odd that someone wouldn't know what was in an Apologia or BJU text. Most people on this board are research crazy :lol: I'm unsure how someone could possibly pick up a curriculum and start using it without knowing what's in it. Whether secular or Christian, most of us seem to keep an eyeball out for what we do/don't want.

 

As for whether young earth people are teaching "ridiculous" things, well, we all have our own opinions about what is "ridiculous." Any thing not in your own belief system could be considered "ridiculous," but that doesn't make it wrong. Some of us tell our kids that a big, fat, red-suited guy makes all the toys in the world with elves and then flies all around the world in less than 24 hours to deliver those said toys. :D Anything can be made to sound ridiculous. It's in the eye of the beholder.

 

:iagree::iagree: Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

And isn't is funny, whenever it gets brought up to the public school that they should provide a balanced argument/viewpoint, we are told that it's not going to happen. Yet here they are (in the article) bashing the Creationist publishers for doing the same thing.

 

Sigh. I hate getting into this kind of thing on Monday morning.:sad:

[Lovedtodeath]

I did a ton of reading last night on the Creationist view-point because I'd been told by many people on another site that there is indeed scientific proof for this view and I wanted to educate myself on these theories. After reading various articles and research as well as scientific articles that use the scientific method to refute these views, I have to agree with the other poster that I also wouldn't bring Apologia or Bob Jones into my home. I am sure they contain some solid science, but Creationism goes so much further than I initially thought! It does not simply refute evolution, but large aspects of geology & astronomy as well. I think I would have to pick apart the text to such an extreme that it wouldn't be (for my family's purposes) worth using.

 

As for the comment about how the experiments won't prove there is a God so we don't have to worry, I am sure many secular people are not opposed to actual scientific proof of His existence. If science could offer me indisputable proof that God exists and He cares at all what I do, I probably wouldn't be an agnostic anymore :001_smile:

Creationism does not go so much further than you thought. Their particular brand of it does.:glare:

[dirty ethel rackham]

I

I'm sure most folks are aware of Amazon and Ebay, so secular materials are very easily available.

 

 

Not true. Student books are readily available everywhere. Teachers' manuals are very hard to come by. That is why the article was written - not much homeschool friendly stuff out there for anyone but YE creationists. We ended up having to go with online classes and outside teachers for science because I did not feel comfortable teaching subjects I hadn't taken in 25 years without the assistance of a TM.

[TravelingChris]

I actually have less problem using creationist biology texts than I do using something like an earth science book or a physical science texts. When we do use a creationist texts, we skip over the creationism versus evolution parts. So much is influenced by the young earth view that I use secular texts or video series.

 

We are old earth creationists but don't like misrepresentations of what evolutionists believe either. I had to educate my own daughter today about how we have no issues with the Big Bang Theory except that it is oversimplified. Than my other one broke in that God could have made the Earth hot and I said that this was science class and we are not going to go into explanations of God did it for every science fact. Like I told her, since God is all powerful, he can create a giant pink Bunny in our living room but he isn't doing that and we have to get back to learning about God's creation and how the whole earth works together.

[Dmmetler]

How helpful ARE TEs at the high school level? At elementary, student texts are often incomplete, assuming that the teacher will present the material, but even when I've taught 1000 level college classes, there is rarely a TE at all. At most, there's a disk or book of test questions, but often not even that.

[nmoira]

 

I guess I'm confused by this. Every public school in America has a secular text. Every public school in America teaches Evolution in one way or another. How can there be a lack of secular texts?

But one of the reasons I homeschool is that I find the most commonly used science curricula (not to mention math, history, literature, etc.) severely lacking. Even if I could afford and gain access to the teacher materials for most elementary and public school science programs, in the vast majority of cases I would still not wish to use them.