s/o Everyone's gifted: ever wonder...

[courtney.byrum]

Check out my blog, I have started collecting ( far from finished ), blogs about children like ours.

 

Ooh - off to look! We are moving towards hsing DS next year as PS can't seem to meet his needs in challenging him. They don't know what to do with a kid years ahead in math/reading but definitely K lvl on writing/social. So they just don't acknowledge that he's ahead whenever possible.

So my 5 yr old does K stuff at school and 3rd grade math at home. :( He was SO happy to learn dividing with a remainder the other day - he keeps explaining how to do it to his 4 yr old sister. I would just have to ignore people telling me I'm pushing him or not letting him be a kid since he WANTS to learn this. We probably spend a few hours a WEEK doing challenging stuff to him - I'd do more but he's in school half-day right now so I don't want to take away play time.

[tajott]

Do you know how goofy a gifted kid can be? They might have a doctorate level vocabulary but emotionally they are still kids. And it is funny! And fun.

 

My #2 was pegged off the charts gifted in 2nd grade at PS. They wanted to promote him to the middle school for math and science. I said, "no, an 8yo boy ought to be playing kickball and finger painting. We'll eventually get to calculus." And he did on his own with no pushing from me. He also learned in the meantime that childlike behavior and childishness are 2 entirely different things. He is now taking college classes, playing in the youth symphony, and a semi-professional actor...and quite the goof!

 

I also have a musically gifted child. She can't balance an equation to save her life, but she has been singing like an angel since before she could make understandable words. She plays 6 (at my last count) instruments also. She has such a fresh, joyful childlike view of world, but she is one of the most responsible young person I know.

 

They just don't think the way the rest of us do...We all have a great time playing together and the kids always keep us in stitches, but the gifted ones just seem to see the world sort of sideways. It is a wonderful thing.

[Nan in Mass]

Of course they are. But you might not see it. Just because they have a very high intelligence doesn't mean that they are going to make great public contributions to the world. Being in the public eye carries a great price and I suspect that many highly gifted people are smart enough to avoid that. The ones I know are making creative contributions in their field of interest combined with attempts at contributing to saving the world combined with attempts not to get addicted to anything or get too depressed over the unintelligence of the rest of the world combined with attempts to keep their highly intelligent and curious and able to dismantle any baby proofing at 12 months old children alive and happy. They have applied their quirky creativity to their own lives and come up with some pretty interesting and satisfying ways of living, but they don't necessarily value the normal trappings of success or blow their own horn, so you don't notice them unless you happen to be involved in their current project.

 

Most of the ones that I know worked very hard to survive their teen years without falling prey to despair. They had intelligent families and communities who had high expectations. The one I know who had intelligence but not much family support is probably dead now at 23, or has dammaged himself beyond repair in an attempt to get some entertainment out of his life or an attempt at least to go numb for a bit and not mind. The ones I know who survived managed to develop extraodinary self-discipline and compassion in order to get along with the stupid rest of the world, and managed to find ways to challenge/entertain themselves. I think parents of gifted children are often accused of pushing when what they are really doing is desperately, desperately trying to teach these very necessary things. A highly gifted toddler can dismantle an electric outlet cover in two seconds while his mother is bending over tieing her shoes. A gifted teen is just as much of a problem. He can hack his way into the FBI computer. He can con people into giving him their wallets. He can dismantle a bank's security system. He can change his friends' grades. He can win all his friends' paychecks at backgammon. If, that is, you don't give him a better intellectual challenge and really push to get those morals firmly engrained. Some of them are frighteningly curious and open to experimentation and have very little fear because in their short lives they haven't run into a situation that they couldn't think themselves out of successfully.

 

-Nan

Edited March 2, 2010 by Nan in Mass
Added second paragraph

[LauraGB]

Yes, there are kids out there who can do calculus at 8. I don't know if they understand the ramifications of it, but they can do the calculations. There are kids who have read the unabridged Iliad at 10. I'm certain some of them found it to be thrilling. Could they write a paper commensurate with a book of its level? Who am I to say.

 

...

 

Someone please tell me that there are some other parents out there who just want their kid to be a kid -- even if they "have the potential" to do harder and harder and harder work (we did that at first, decided it wasn't worth it).

 

 

a

 

Hmm. This whole thread is interesting, but really nothing new for those of us who have had to deal with the differing opinions on the subject from those not in the same boat and even those who are. Giftedness manifests in so many different ways. It's a tricky rope to walk, being the teacher of these kinds of kids. I think, in response to Asta's question above, I have to say that if a child has the potential, the child should be given the material and instruction. Bored children = bad labels. Labels that do not disappear. Labels given by adults who don't encourage a child to work to their potential. Very detrimental to a growing individual, indeed. ETA I can't imagine living a life where I only gave the portion of effort it would take to the get the job done, rather than 100% of my potential. I think the same thing applies to children, or people in general. Not challenging a child, helps to generate an adult who doesn't know how to respond to challenge. It is a very serious potential problem with gifted kids.

 

On one hand, I have seen enough damage done to kids when parents go gung-ho and live vicariously through their gifted kids. On the other hand, I have seen kids who would have been lost in ps flourish in a setting where they are constantly academically challenged. Like I said, its a tricky business for educators.

 

The opposite of gifted kids is prevalent, too. I've also witnessed parents jumping on the "what is wrong with my kid" wagon, too. Instead of being gifted, it turns to "what can I label my kid because I can't figure him out". There may or may not be a medical or psychological reason for behaviors, but it seems many parents and educators are always looking for it, rather than actively looking for ways to understand the child himself, sans a lable that may or may not be accurate. I find that to be more disturbing.

Edited March 2, 2010 by LauraGB

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not really responding to one person here but many people (including myself at times;)) talk about someone working to their potential. When my ds was 6, I conducted an experiment. I decided to really see what his 100% potential was at that time in one area. I chose a book on a sciencey topic (which was his passion and most gifted area) and we read it together. The book was middle school level in content and was on the issue of old growth forests and owls. He understood it. Then we discussed it. It was a hard- hitting pertinent discussion on the issues involved. Ds not only tracked the discussion but entered whole-heartedly into it with pros/cons, ramifications, the whole nine yards (actually farther than many middle schoolers would have done on the same book). I felt like I was stretched myself in the conversation. When we were done with the discussion, he was dripping with sweat and was exhausted! Yes, we went to his potential. I proved that my 6 year old could have a cogent debate on a multi-faceted issue. But I also proved that it would be abuse to expect him to work to that potential every day. So we don't. Many times he will push the topic way beyond what is expected. And I let him. I enjoy and encourage the rabbit trails that a gifted individual can delve into. Sometimes when he is deeply interested, he will push himself to that level of mental exhaustion. But if he doesn't feel like going that extra mile every single time, that's fine by me too.

 

Also - I don't expect him to have the same level of potential in every subject.

[Lovedtodeath]

I proved that my 6 year old could have a cogent debate on a multi-faceted issue. But I also proved that it would be abuse to expect him to work to that potential every day. So we don't. Many times he will push the topic way beyond what is expected. And I let him. I enjoy and encourage the rabbit trails that a gifted individual can delve into. Sometimes when he is deeply interested, he will push himself to that level of mental exhaustion. But if he doesn't feel like going that extra mile every single time, that's fine by me too.

 

Also - I don't expect him to have the same level of potential in every subject.

This was a big lesson for me to learn. ;)

[cougarmom4]

But I also proved that it would be abuse to expect him to work to that potential every day.

 

Unless HE loved it and thrived on it and asked for it and *needed* it...:001_smile:

[AngieC]

This has been a great discussion to read.

 

If giftedness is only identified by IQ testing, then what about people (kids) whose IQ falls into the gifted range (>98%), but they don't have any of the other gifted traits--they're not quirky, passionate, begging for school work or any of the other often listed traits on gifted lists. Are such people still gifted or is there more to it than an IQ? If it's just IQ, then only 2% of the population is truly gifted and if there is more to it than just IQ, then it would be ever fewer people.

 

I wonder if part of the problem is that gifted programs throughout the country have different criteria for acceptance. My district is 98% IQ & 96% acheivement standard, a neighboring district is 95%, 95%, respectively. My sister got her son in a gifted program in FL qualifying at the 90% because he was hispanic. I think some districts only require for one subtest to be in the 98/99th%, not the full scale number, which again would lead to more kids qualifying. So, gifted should be rare (2%), but it turns at that because of all of the different ways of getting it different programs, it really ends up being much greater. (In my district with the 98% cut off, they claim to have 7% of the kids in the district involved in some sort of gifted programming.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

This has been a great discussion to read.

 

If giftedness is only identified by IQ testing, then what about people (kids) whose IQ falls into the gifted range (>98%), but they don't have any of the other gifted traits--they're not quirky, passionate, begging for school work or any of the other often listed traits on gifted lists. Are such people still gifted or is there more to it than an IQ? If it's just IQ, then only 2% of the population is truly gifted and if there is more to it than just IQ, then it would be ever fewer people.

 

I wonder if part of the problem is that gifted programs throughout the country have different criteria for acceptance. My district is 98% IQ & 96% acheivement standard, a neighboring district is 95%, 95%, respectively. My sister got her son in a gifted program in FL qualifying at the 90% because he was hispanic. I think some districts only require for one subtest to be in the 98/99th%, not the full scale number, which again would lead to more kids qualifying. So, gifted should be rare (2%), but it turns at that because of all of the different ways of getting it different programs, it really ends up being much greater. (In my district with the 98% cut off, they claim to have 7% of the kids in the district involved in some sort of gifted programming.)

 

Most gifted programs do not really cater to those who are profoundly gifted. Even the private school for gifted kids that I taught at really had most kids in the "moderately to highly" gifted range. So even if many of the kids in these programs are not the top 2%, I think it is a good thing for them and for society that they are getting a better quality of education (presumably) than that in the regular classroom.

[Barb_]

I think there is a HUGE difference between doing this (which I think all of us do) and a kid finishing most of college by 16, no?

 

 

a

 

Maybe I can shed a little light with our experience. I've always followed a "teach them where they are" philosophy. At 11, my oldest began asking to go to school because she thought she'd have discussions about the literature she was reading and the science she wanted to dig into. At the time I laughed and gently explained that it wasn't middle school she was craving, but college and that she was still too young. We started watching Teaching Company lectures and she began following some of her favorite professors like a groupie. When she was 14 she began taking classes at the local university because the community college wouldn't let her in until she was 16. Since classes only met 3 hours a week, she was able to take 3 college classes, study Latin, Literature and Math on her own and still have time for volunteer work, fencing, and a social life. If she were in high school, she'd have been physically trapped in a classroom for 6-7 hours each day studying material far below the level she was capable of. She easily graduated with 58 college credits around her employment schedule and social life.

 

I had always assumed my second daughter, who is if anything more studious than my oldest, would follow suit and start taking college classes during the first year of high school. We didn't count on finding a wonderful little classical charter (read free and public) school just 30 minutes away. While she has thrived there and loves the humanities focus and the opportunity to develop her leadership skills as well as the extensive list of extracurriculars (philosophy club, shakespeare club, choir, ets), the schedule really kills her free time. She is in the car for 90 minutes a day and in the classroom for 7 hours. She has 2-4 hours of homework every evening and always brings work home on the weekend. While her human letters course is stimulating and her Latin teacher works with her to give her extra projects to keep her busy and engaged, they are quite weak in Math and Science. But she is getting Art and Music lessons that are worth their weight in gold. She is earning an amazing education in some areas, but she is not ideally challenged across the board as my older daughter was. And she has very little time for socializing, free reading, or just "being a kid."

 

Ironic, huh?

 

Barb

 

ETA: Lest anyone think all my children are as focused or have the work ethic of my older two...let's just say I was blessed with children of various strengths and weaknesses :)

[cougarmom4]

Are such people still gifted or is there more to it than an IQ?

 

Oooh...this reminds me of the article I previously posted about, "Is It a Cheetah?" by Stephanie Tolman. (http://www.sengifted.org/articles_learning/Tolan_IsItACheetah.shtml) I think it is a fabulous analogy for us to consider in a discussion on the gifted and gifted education. She basically compares a gifted student to a cheetah...however, if the cheetah is kept within a small cage, not provided live antelope to chase for prey, isn't running 70 mph...is it still a cheetah? If we consider a gifted child who is kept within a ps classroom, handed a dumbed-down curriculum, kept from moving ahead of anyone else, and watch as s/he performs only at the expected level of performance...hmm, is s/he still gifted? On the other hand, if this child is allowed or encouraged to take off with his/her natural abilities & talents and actually given materials/resources to do so, is it possible that s/he might run 70 mph afterall?

[Mejane]

Yes, everyone is gifted, just not academically. An aptitude for art, music, dance, sports, working with children or animals, mechanics, carpentry, sales... all are gifts. Schools test for (and reward) only academics, so that's what "counts". It doesn't mean the others are any less valuable if recognized and nurtured.

[nmoira]

 

Yes, everyone is gifted, just not academically. An aptitude for art, music, dance, sports, working with children or animals, mechanics, carpentry, sales... all are gifts. Schools test for (and reward) only academics, so that's what "counts". It doesn't mean the others are any less valuable if recognized and nurtured.

No, not everyone is gifted, by definition. Yours is not in the sense most are talking about giftedness in this thread. And no one that I've noticed is talking about the relative value of either people or of domains.

[Renee in NC]

Yes, everyone is gifted, just not academically. An aptitude for art, music, dance, sports, working with children or animals, mechanics, carpentry, sales... all are gifts. Schools test for (and reward) only academics, so that's what "counts". It doesn't mean the others are any less valuable if recognized and nurtured.

 

I disagree. I believe that there are different types of intelligence, but that doesn't equal everyone is gifted. Even going to the "8 types of Intelligence" if you figure the top 2% of each type with no overlap, then you end up with 16% gifted. That isn't even likely because there is going to be overlap.

 

This idea that everyone is gifted does a huge disservice to those who are truly gifted. Yes, we all have strengths and weaknesses, but a strength doesn't equal gifted.

[asta]

Not really responding to one person here but many people (including myself at times;)) talk about someone working to their potential. When my ds was 6, I conducted an experiment. I decided to really see what his 100% potential was at that time in one area. I chose a book on a sciencey topic (which was his passion and most gifted area) and we read it together. The book was middle school level in content and was on the issue of old growth forests and owls. He understood it. Then we discussed it. It was a hard- hitting pertinent discussion on the issues involved. Ds not only tracked the discussion but entered whole-heartedly into it with pros/cons, ramifications, the whole nine yards (actually farther than many middle schoolers would have done on the same book). I felt like I was stretched myself in the conversation. When we were done with the discussion, he was dripping with sweat and was exhausted! Yes, we went to his potential. I proved that my 6 year old could have a cogent debate on a multi-faceted issue. But I also proved that it would be abuse to expect him to work to that potential every day. So we don't. Many times he will push the topic way beyond what is expected. And I let him. I enjoy and encourage the rabbit trails that a gifted individual can delve into. Sometimes when he is deeply interested, he will push himself to that level of mental exhaustion. But if he doesn't feel like going that extra mile every single time, that's fine by me too.

 

Also - I don't expect him to have the same level of potential in every subject.

 

Yes.

 

 

a

[nmoira]

 

Even going to the "8 types of Intelligence" if you figure the top 2% of each type with no overlap, then you end up with 16% gifted. That isn't even likely because there is going to be overlap.

What she said. :D

[tex-mex]

I have also read that many kids average out by 3rd grade since many of our schools dumb things down. I tend to agree with this in many respects. Of course, there gifted kids and average kids and in-between kids and all sorts of kids, but I do think that our schools in many cases do a dis-service to all of these kids by dumbing things down:(

 

As a former Pre-K-6 teacher -- I can attest to the fact (in my experience working with students) that yes, they DO "filter" out by 3rd grade. You will begin to see the precocious gifted ones rise and the ones with learning disabilities struggle. However, any teaching is done strictly aimed at the average student. Nothing was dumbed down. But if your child is gifted -- then surely he/she won't get the tailored curricula to encourage them or motivate them. (Ditto on LD students) Which is why most kids (gifted or LD) fall thru the cracks in public schools. Just sayin'. BTDT ;)

 

ETA: At our school, the child had to have scored in the 95% and above percentile in standardized testing (3 years in a row) to qualify for "Gifted" labeling. By the time they were in Junior High, those scores ID'ed them for International Bacculaureate admissions (and more testings like SAT in 7th grade & grades).

Edited March 2, 2010 by tex-mex

[cougarmom4]

Yes, everyone is gifted, just not academically. An aptitude for art, music, dance, sports, working with children or animals, mechanics, carpentry, sales... all are gifts. Schools test for (and reward) only academics, so that's what "counts". It doesn't mean the others are any less valuable if recognized and nurtured.

 

Quite funny, because I've actually had the OPPOSITE reaction from our schools and many people in my community. It's OKAY for students to be 'gifted' in music (they can be first-chair in the Philharmonic Orchestra), athletics (no problem with Varsity teams or 1st String or 'Elite' travel teams), art (winners of the art contest & pictures in the paper)...but don't you dare make a big deal of how smart your child is or ask for any accommodations to be made in his educational plan. It wouldn't be fair.

 

Of course, different schools/districts will vary in their offerings for gifted education...I just happen to live in a state where there is no mandate and therefore, very little offered.

 

Having said that, I will agree with you, Mejane, in my belief that every child is valuable and worthwhile. Every child has strengths and much to offer/share with others. If we (as a society) can only learn to embrace and accept individual differences without feeling threatened by them, perhaps we can give these students what they need.

[kmacnchs]

I don't ever plan on getting mine tested - I don't really see the point. In ps, the point is for them to be able to be challenged if they are 'gifted' but I plan on teaching to their level (or a bit above) so they *will* be challenged - I don't need a test for that.:001_smile:

 

One of my professors in college told me that her ds was tested and was 'gifted' (don't remember the #) and then his younger sister was tested a few years later and her # was WAAY higher. My professor said it was so much higher b/c she was learning along w/her brother so she knew 15x15, etc. when she was 3 or 5.

 

When people find out that my children are 'above' where they 'should' be, I just chalk it up to the fact that they are exposed to it. I thought that dd1 was 'gifted' but when dd2 started following suit and surpassing #1, I started thinking anyone in my situation could achieve the same things (meaning, no LDs, healthy, at home all day (no distractions), etc.). I kinda agree with some others who said they question the whole idea of being 'gifted' but then again, I can only speak for mine.

 

I am surprised at what they remember sometimes (and a little freaked out) but then again my SIL is in vet. school and on a whim decided to take the LSATs (minoring in polisci) and she passed them! Oh, and she is only 19...So now she wants to be a lawyer! Not bragging, no blood relation here...just saying some people are freaky smart :tongue_smilie:

[Mejane]

This idea that everyone is gifted does a huge disservice to those who are truly gifted. Yes, we all have strengths and weaknesses, but a strength doesn't equal gifted.

 

I disagree. But then I am gifted with an extremely generous spirit. ;)

[MIch elle]

I was just thinking the exact same thing. Hoagie's gifted site talks about that.

 

I've heard this quote for as long as I can remember:

 

 

I don't know anything about gifted dc and have chosen to ignore the label for various reasons. This thread is interesting. :001_smile:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

As a former Pre-K-6 teacher -- I can attest to the fact (in my experience working with students) that yes, they DO "filter" out by 3rd grade. You will begin to see the precocious gifted ones rise and the ones with learning disabilities struggle. However, any teaching is done strictly aimed at the average student. Nothing was dumbed down. But if your child is gifted -- then surely he/she won't get the tailored curricula to encourage them or motivate them. (Ditto on LD students) Which is why most kids (gifted or LD) fall thru the cracks in public schools. Just sayin'. BTDT ;)

 

ETA: At our school, the child had to have scored in the 95% and above percentile in standardized testing (3 years in a row) to qualify for "Gifted" labeling. By the time they were in Junior High, those scores ID'ed them for International Bacculaureate admissions (and more testings like SAT in 7th grade & grades).

 

In regards to dumbing down education, I mean it in comparison to about 100 years ago, but I could be wrong;). My grandfather only went to an 8th grade education, but it seemed as if he learned the equivalent of a high school degree today. I look at texts from then and they seem more rigorous even at the primary school level. I think the bar has been dropped lower than it was then IMHO, but again I am not an expert on this:)

[MissKNG]

just saying some people are freaky smart :tongue_smilie:

 

I think of the boy who is about 9 years old and can build a motorcycle (that really works) and has very little education. His preschool/younger years were spent mainly homeless and starving because the country he lives in is at war. After the war, the country is completely destroyed yet this boy can build a motorcycle by scrounging scraps and somehow just "knows" what to do.

 

That is freaky smart to me!! Oh yeah, he also built a bicycle around age 6.

 

I am pretty sure he is profoundly gifted.

[Crimson Wife]

This has been an interesting discussion.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but sincerely want to know---what do you consider truly gifted? Do you, and others with this mindset, think it is an IQ score?

 

If you have one, you just know- and you probably spend much of your time wishing your kid was just garden variety bright (life would be so much easier!)

[lauranc]

That's when you'll know if they are truly "gifted."

 

I agree with this. From my experience, the intellectual/academic playing field can even out over time. By the time someone's 'gifted' pre-school aged child is a teenager, they may discover that there are lots of other teenagers just as 'gifted'--- perhaps discovering that their child is really bright, but not exactly truly gifted. It can be an uncomfortable realization.

 

..Laura

[melmichigan]

A very interesting thread. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree with this. From my experience, the intellectual/academic playing field can even out over time. By the time someone's 'gifted' pre-school aged child is a teenager, they may discover that there are lots of other teenagers just as 'gifted'--- perhaps discovering that their child is really bright, but not exactly truly gifted. It can be an uncomfortable realization.

 

..Laura

 

I think the real problem is the vernacular of the public school system labels extremely bright children as gifted.

[EKS]

I agree with this. From my experience, the intellectual/academic playing field can even out over time. By the time someone's 'gifted' pre-school aged child is a teenager, they may discover that there are lots of other teenagers just as 'gifted'--- perhaps discovering that their child is really bright, but not exactly truly gifted. It can be an uncomfortable realization.

 

..Laura

 

What's equally (or maybe even more) interesting is when a "well below average" preschooler becomes a gifted teenager.

[Donna]

Kind of like the religion threads - you never really know if someone is really into their religion, or just really knowledgeable about religion and wants to step into the fray.

 

:001_smile:

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this since it's difficult to read between the lines when reading a message board. But if you are questioning my reasons for my post, it is coming from first hand experience. I have one of those top 99% kids who is extremely motivated both academically and musically. The psychologist who tested her recommended continuing to homeschool her because she would never have her needs met in a school. Someone once told me, "No one will understand the choices you will have to make and people will misunderstand you as her mother." I guess, from many of the posts on this thread, that applies to academics as well as her music.

 

My dd spends 1-3 hours a day on academics, 2-4 hours practicing her instrument, and because we homeschool, still has plenty of time to just be a kid. She is happy, enthusiastic, and a joy. She is working at the rate that suits her. She gets along with kids her own age just as easily as she does the adults with whom she sits in pubs and fiddles. It is much easier for people to believe that high achieving children are unhappy, being pushed, and missing out on their childhood. I am sure there actually are kids who are all of those things but there are also high achieving kids who are well-adjusted and happiky doing what they love. They simply learn faster and sometimes intuitively leaving them more time for other things.

 

I go to the Accelerated Learner board to ask questions, get curriculum suggestions, and commisserate with other parents who are in the same boat. It is a shame in our society that it is taboo to talk about children's academic gifts in many circles. I don't share what my dd is doing with anyone in my "real" life. "Gifted" has so many meanings and has become watered down until it is almost meaningless but occassionally it is a convenient term though like most labels, insufficient to describe our very complex, multidimensional children. I don't care if people use it in the watered down way. I honestly don't care who wants to call their child gifted or accelerated.

 

 

I know that not every gifted child is high achieving. When I typed my original post it was simply in response to the OP's questions concerning high achieving kids and their "lack of a childhood."

[JenneinCA]

Discussions like this make me want to go cry in a corner.

[Lovedtodeath]

About some of the stuff you read on homeschool boards regarding the amount and level of work kids are doing?

I just figure they will get burnt out and not want anything to do with it at all for a year or more... like we did. :D When my daughter was 6 years old her best friend stayed with us for the summer. She was in third grade. We were surprised that they seemed to be on the same level. Now, our friend is 2 grades higher than that and Emily has just stayed there. lol

[Mergath]

If you have one, you just know- and you probably spend much of your time wishing your kid was just garden variety bright (life would be so much easier!)

 

But really, doesn't everyone think their child is gifted? I honestly don't know a single parent who doesn't just know that their child is gifted and smarter than everyone else's. It's just part of being a parent, and it's part of what's causing the problem in the first place. It's why we have entire graduating classes of gifted children with 4.0 gpas- because everyone wants their child to be gifted, and exceptional, and perfect. Gifted has become the new average, and that's what bothers me about the whole thing. Children today need a dose of reality much more than they need more inflated praise. We've shifted to place far too much emphasis on intellectual ability, at the expense of selflessness and a strong work ethic.

[patchfire]

If you have one, you just know- and you probably spend much of your time wishing your kid was just garden variety bright (life would be so much easier!)

 

As a gifted adult, I have spent too much of my time wishing I wasn't, because - as you say - life would be so much easier! If my children can reach adulthood and thrive without that thought in their heads, then I'll think I've done quite well.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

We've shifted to place far too much emphasis on intellectual ability, at the expense of selflessness and a strong work ethic.

But, on the other hand, if you ignore a child's giftedness or LDs (their differences), then you can damage their work ethic by doing that.

[Mergath]

But, on the other hand, if you ignore a child's giftedness or LDs (their differences), then you can damage their work ethic by doing that.

 

I don't know, my "giftedness" was completely ignored. Stomped on. Trampled. And I turned out okay. I have a strong work ethic, I'm a good mother, and I love reading and learning. If I would have been labeled as "gifted" and treated like I was special, I think my ego would be monumentally huge at this point. Kids aren't made of glass. Just sayin'.

[Jen500]

But really, doesn't everyone think their child is gifted? I honestly don't know a single parent who doesn't just know that their child is gifted and smarter than everyone else's.

 

Wow.

I have known only TWO families OUTSIDE of the homeschooling world who have told me their child is gifted and they have never acted like their children are smarter than everyone else's. Are you misinterpreting parent's enthusiasm for their kids learning new things? :confused:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I don't know, my "giftedness" was completely ignored. Stomped on. Trampled. And I turned out okay. I have a strong work ethic, I'm a good mother, and I love reading and learning. If I would have been labeled as "gifted" and treated like I was special, I think my ego would be monumentally huge at this point. Kids aren't made of glass. Just sayin'.

While we are sharing, I was both gifted and had problems (ADD). I hated school, but always loved learning and reading. I have struggled terribly with work ethic and ego. ;)

[OnTheBrink]

:iagree: My dh coasted through elementary and secondary school because he is truly gifted. However, he had a big wake up call in college since he did not need to learn study skills previously since he had not been challenged. Thank goodness he did learn:)

 

This is my son. He completely cruised through school and was bored to tears, despite being "challenged" in the "gifted" program. What a joke that was! In elementary school, he'd get in trouble for doing the ESL kids' homework!

 

And, (I don't remember who said it) but grades are NOT an indicator of giftedness at all and it's rare to find someone gifted across the board, in all subjects and areas. Usually, if a child is gifted, its in one or two related subjects.

 

My son has been tested and identified as gifted, using both an IQ test in Missouri and by using test scores in CA. My daughter's not been tested (because it doesn't really matter) but she is considered by others to be highly intelligent and insightful. *shrug* As someone else said, so what? My kids are who they are, whether they've had testing or not. My son's now in college, but my daughter is still homeschooled. I'll teach her according to her needs and levels, and I'll teach her what I think she needs to learn. If that gets her ahead of others her age, again, so what. Not to sound flippant, but I don't really care what other kids her age are doing. I figure their parents have their education under control and I don't need to be bothered with it.

[Perry]

.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Perry

[Crimson Wife]

I don't know, my "giftedness" was completely ignored. Stomped on. Trampled. And I turned out okay.

 

From your comments in this thread, it is just my HO that you have MAJOR issues that you've not fully come to terms with and that's causing you to lash out at others when it comes to this particular topic.

 

I'm sorry you had problems with your mom and your teachers and whoever else did not treat you with respect. Really I am!

 

But it really doesn't help solve anything when you take out your anger & resentment on us...:thumbdown:

[cougarmom4]

It's why we have entire graduating classes of gifted children with 4.0 gpas-

 

Wow. We don't have that in my neck of the woods. That must be an amazing school.

[elizabeth]

Discussions like this make me want to go cry in a corner.

 

May I join you?

[chaik76]

But really, doesn't everyone think their child is gifted? I honestly don't know a single parent who doesn't just know that their child is gifted and smarter than everyone else's. It's just part of being a parent, and it's part of what's causing the problem in the first place. It's why we have entire graduating classes of gifted children with 4.0 gpas- because everyone wants their child to be gifted, and exceptional, and perfect. Gifted has become the new average, and that's what bothers me about the whole thing. Children today need a dose of reality much more than they need more inflated praise. We've shifted to place far too much emphasis on intellectual ability, at the expense of selflessness and a strong work ethic.

I honestly don't know many parents like this at all. Most of the parents I know do not think their kids are gifted or smarter than everyone else's. As a matter of fact, the word "gifted" is almost anathema in both places I've homeschooled. Kids "work hard," "study a lot," "practice often"...but you rarely hear a parents say their child is really smart or gifted. Ans often, if you say that to another person, "Wow! Your Pamela is really bright/gifted/smart!" the parent will say, "Oh, really she just likes to read," or "She just works hard".

 

I'm one of the only people I know willing to say, "I. is really advanced in science." Well...he is. And we unschool science, so it's not me pushing him. It's not my fault he's working out of high school and college texts. But I'm also just as willing to say that he's on task in reading (he's exactly grade level), can't spell, still writes like a kindergartner, and is slightly advanced in math. I don't know if I'm lucky or what...because none of my friends or people in my homeschooling group want perfect kids, or think their kids are so far ahead of others.

 

 

And yep, work ethic is really important. And selflessness can be, too. But so is working with each child's individual weaknesses and strengths. It's one of the reasons I homeschool. Because I can make sure my child gets exactly the kind of education he needs.

Edited March 3, 2010 by chaik76

[nmoira]

 

May I join you?

I'll bring wine, or a cuppa tea.

[asta]

From your comments in this thread, it is just my HO that you have MAJOR issues that you've not fully come to terms with and that's causing you to lash out at others when it comes to this particular topic.

 

I'm sorry you had problems with your mom and your teachers and whoever else did not treat you with respect. Really I am!

 

But it really doesn't help solve anything when you take out your anger & resentment on us...:thumbdown:

 

I didn't get that from her post at all. The 70s were a terrible time for being a gifted kid. Gifted programs tended to be "pull out" programs that other kids resented. Even if you weren't in one of those programs (or if one didn't exist in your school system), smart kids were often resented. If you were at the average inner city school, by using "big college words" you were a "smarty pants" a "brown noser" - someone to beat up for not fitting into the norm.

 

In regards to

Kind of like the religion threads - you never really know if someone is really into their religion, or just really knowledgeable about religion and wants to step into the fray.

 

:001_smile:

 

 

a

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this since it's difficult to read between the lines when reading a message board. But if you are questioning my reasons for my post, it is coming from first hand experience. I have one of those top 99% kids who is extremely motivated both academically and musically. The psychologist who tested her recommended continuing to homeschool her because she would never have her needs met in a school.

 

I wasn't questioning your reasons at all. I was explaining mine.

 

 

:001_smile:

 

 

asta

[Lovedtodeath]

I was in the pull out program!:tongue_smilie:

[Corraleno]

But really, doesn't everyone think their child is gifted? I honestly don't know a single parent who doesn't just know that their child is gifted and smarter than everyone else's.

 

IME, the parents of truly gifted kids are not the ones bragging about how advanced their kids are. My son is highly gifted (along with an alphabet soup of LDs) and we are friends with another family who has a PG kid; we never talk about how "smart" our kids are. Usually the conversation is more along the lines of "K has decided apples are the perfect food and hasn't eaten anything else for the last 5 days ~ any suggestions?"

 

If you have one, you just know- and you probably spend much of your time wishing your kid was just garden variety bright (life would be so much easier!)

 

:iagree:

Not all truly gifted kids are quirky and strange ~ but a lot of them are. My DH is profoundly gifted and I can tell you it is NOT easy living with the intensity and, shall we say, "unusual" priorities, ideas, and thought processes of a PG person. Although in some ways I think being PG is easier than being HG, because they are so far off the spectrum that they don't really notice how not normal they are. Whereas those of us who are lower on the spectrum tend to spend much of our childhood/adolescence/early adulthood wishing we weren't HG, because a "normal" life would be so much easier. I think PG people are less aware there even *is* another way to be.

 

Jackie

[Aubrey]

Maybe the original choice of the term 'gifted' was a mistake, huh? It leads to so many misunderstandings.

 

I think of the bell curve--you know how the bell's supposed to encompass the avg range of people, w/ some falling on one side, & others falling on the other? We mistakenly (imo) view the bell in a 2d way, as a line or a race to be won. I imagine it more like a sphere, & when you fold it over like that, those who fall outside the range of normal have more in common w/ ea other than those inside the bell.

 

The thing about giftedness is not just what those kids are capable of. Their potential matters, sure, but w/ that potential comes a myriad of...constraints. Someone said they see the world sideways. Yes, like that, but...not quite that simple, either, lol.

 

It's almost like being in a foreign place, I think. People speak a language that's maybe familiar, but you can't catch all the words. The customs aren't what you're used to. Maybe people there drive on the left side of the road. If there's someone in that strange place to guide you, act as interpretor, you might get along ok & learn to get along on your own. That's what gifted services ought to be for, not just teaching material faster.

 

Because w/out that guide, to help these people figure out how to function in a world where they're off-beat or out-of-tune, the statistics are bad. They're highly inclined to suicide, alcoholism, and other problems, esp those related to depression. These kids, grown up, tend to either be brilliant successes or tragic failures. They need help & services for similar reasons that kids on the other end of the bell curve need services--to function independently as adults.

 

As far as the original question--sure there are probably parents who push kids too hard. I remember seeing them on tv, maybe. As far as wanting a 12yo kid to be a 12yo kid, or however Asta put it 15pp ago, lol, I don't know that it matters what the parents do. A gifted 12yo won't ever be exactly what one expects a 12yo to be, whether he wants to be or not. Chances are decent that he doesn't but maybe wishes he could at least want to. If that sort-of makes sense.

 

A gifted kid is a whole package. Just like people with other exceptionalities (meant in the sense of falling outside the bell curve) have to learn coping skills, so do they. Given that, sure there's great potential in them. Without that, though, the more pressing concern imo is the great potential for damage that comes w/ the emotional intensity that often accompanies the IQ.

 

And, btw, pull-out programs--can you imagine what a relief it must be for these kids, in ps, to have a place where they can find a few other people remotely like themselves? Maybe a good analogy would be a girl going to an all-boy school, not at an age where that would be fun, lol, but in elem school, where the boys all shun her, say she has cooties, etc. And then she finds this glorious place w/ other people who giggle, too, & like fuschia, & think boys stink a little. (Go w/ me on this one.)

 

Parents who brag that their kids are gifted deserve sympathy, perhaps. Whether for the task they face, which they obviously have yet to fully understand, or for their portrayal of their own ignorance regarding what is to be desired. Not that giftedness is something to be shunned...just that...it's a very two-edged thing, & sometimes the line between blessing & curse is awfully fine.

 

:001_smile:

[Corraleno]

Of course they are. But you might not see it. Just because they have a very high intelligence doesn't mean that they are going to make great public contributions to the world. Being in the public eye carries a great price and I suspect that many highly gifted people are smart enough to avoid that. The ones I know are making creative contributions in their field of interest combined with attempts at contributing to saving the world combined with attempts not to get addicted to anything or get too depressed over the unintelligence of the rest of the world combined with attempts to keep their highly intelligent and curious and able to dismantle any baby proofing at 12 months old children alive and happy. They have applied their quirky creativity to their own lives and come up with some pretty interesting and satisfying ways of living, but they don't necessarily value the normal trappings of success or blow their own horn

 

This is true of almost all the highly gifted people I've known. Many of them dropped out of college because they were bored or unchallenged or just found something more interesting to do. I spent my teen years being told by my parents/teachers/guidance counselors that it was my duty to "live up to my potential" ~ which drove me In.Sane. Why should I spend *my* life living up to their expectations? I used to tell everyone I wanted to be a forest ranger and live alone in an isolated watch tower looking for forest fires just so I wouldn't have to deal with other people.

 

I hated HS and graduated at 16. I found college marginally more interesting but not any more difficult. I thought grad school must be where all the really fun, interesting, challenging stuff would be, but except for a few classes here and there, I didn't find it very challenging either. I was disappointed that life in a university department was 90% petty politics and 10% academics. I published my research in a book but never bothered writing it up as a dissertation, because by then I knew I didn't want to teach/work at a university. My family still snark at me about "wasting" all that education ~ as if the only reason for learning something is to get a job.

 

These are the things I've really enjoyed and felt challenged by: teaching myself graphic design and working as a book designer for several years; teaching myself about architecture/planning and designing (and building) my own house; navigating the murky waters of international adoption while living in 2 different European countries, with an agency in a 3rd country, and my child in a 4th (i.e. 20+ legal documents from 4 different countries, all translated/notarized/legalized/etc from various consulates); marrying a PG/ADD man and raising an HG/ADD/CAPD/SPD/dyslexic son and a bright, stubborn, musically-gifted daughter; and homeschooling. (Especially homeschooling!)

 

I'm sure many people who knew me in my teens would think I hadn't "lived up to my potential," but I'm doing exactly what I want to do and I'm perfectly happy with my life. I plan to give my kids the same freedom ~ it doesn't matter to me if my son gets a PhD or backpacks around the world and ends up working in a sea turtle sanctuary. It doesn't matter if my DD becomes a concert musician or an accountant or a stay-at-home mom. As long as they feel happy and fulfilled by their choices, it's fine with me. I don't think that being gifted comes with an obligation to live up to anyone else's idea of what your "potential" is ~ not even your parents. :001_smile:

 

Jackie

[tex-mex]

I honestly don't know many parents like this at all. Most of the parents I know do not think their kids are gifted or smarter than everyone else's. As a matter of fact, the word "gifted" is almost anathema in both places I've homeschooled. Kids "work hard," "study a lot," "practice often"...but you rarely hear a parents say their child is really smart or gifted. Ans often, if you say that to another person, "Wow! Your Pamela is really bright/gifted/smart!" the parent will say, "Oh, really she just likes to read," or "She just works hard".

 

I'm one of the only people I know willing to say, "I. is really advanced in science." Well...he is. And we unschool science, so it's not me pushing him. It's not my fault he's working out of high school and college texts. But I'm also just as willing to say that he's on task in reading (he's exactly grade level), can't spell, still writes like a kindergartner, and is slightly advanced in math. I don't know if I'm lucky or what...because none of my friends or people in my homeschooling group want perfect kids, or think their kids are so far ahead of others.

 

 

And yep, work ethic is really important. And selflessness can be, too. But so is working with each child's individual weaknesses and strengths. It's one of the reasons I homeschool. Because I can make sure my child gets exactly the kind of education he needs.

 

:iagree: In my experience teaching 400+ students -- I've only had 3 students who were profoundly gifted. 2 were immediately put into the next higher grade level and did well after the first month of school. The other child scored in all areas in the 98% and 99% percentiles... (his cumulative record showed past test scores in the same range) parents were not the type to brag about it. Very humble folks. But mom was a smart cookie (college grad) and dad a NASA pilot. I can honestly say I have NEVER seen children score that high in all of my years of doing standardized tests.

 

I do think many people are overlapping "giftedness" with ambition and work ethic. I know of many people who are very passionate about interests, studies, or hobbies. Of course, their IQ is not like the students I just described... but they definitely scored above average on IQ tests. Some were horrible students and some struggled with learning disabilities or ADHD. They were very bright people with a PASSION for learning. To me, the inner drive to succeed is far more valuable than being the most gifted in IQ. KWIM? ;)

Edited March 3, 2010 by tex-mex