Why do people homeschool their dc if they don't know the material or care to know it?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, ds12 has now outstripped me in math as of this year. That's because I did not study this high of a math at 7th grade (or even later). But dh is very math savvy. He picked a wonderful textbook that is clearly explained. Ds is doing very well in math. He's had a few questions and I've always been able to answer them because they were more semantically oriented questions. The two I wasn't able to answer on my own were easily answered by googling the math concept. I did work ahead in my math up until last year but while I "care to know" the material, I just do not have the time now to do so. But I do care that my son keep working at his level and so I'm not going to hold him back while I try to catch up!

[helena]

A few valid (albeit quite obvious in my opinions) points were repeatedly brought up in this discussion (yeah, I was crazy enough to read or at least skim all the posts) - one, that nobody can possibly be an expert in ALL fields they are necessarily going to implement in their children's education; two, that, at the end of the day, we're also entitled not to be equally interested in all areas or willing to learn them along with our children, or not to the same extent; three, that independence in one's studies is actually a desirable quality we should encourage, as opposed to promoting being passive and "spoon-fed". All of those are valid points that I agree with.

However, I believe that the essence of home education is - or should be - somewhere else.

 

Most of what you talk about is doable in the public school circumstances as well - you can also only "supervise" your children's work, be there as a facilitator, point some new resources for them, help them out with their specific interests and support those financially, encourage independence in and responsibility for one's learning, and pleasantly ignore oh, those ****ed integrals you never properly learned at school and wish not to bother with. That's actually how most of the responsible parents with children in public schools reason and behave. So the question is, why homeschool in the first place? What makes you bring your child home and then provide them with an education based on somebody else's teaching (i.e. minimizing parental instruction and your ACTIVE involment in the PROCESS of your child's education, not just "checkpoints")?

 

While I agree that children may and DO profit from a lot of independent work, I think that the DIALOGUE is the crucial part of education. My daughters to do a lot on their own, but that's not where it stops - they learn it in order to enter the dialogue at some point: with me (usually, as I educate them), with their father, with our family members and colleagues, with various other individuals they are going to meet. Simply going through a book on one's own, writing a few pages on it or translating a few dozen lines of Cicero is the FIRST STEP, not the PURPOSE of the process of doing it. I do require the first step to be done independently as much as possible, with regards to the child's age and ability, however, the actual learning BEGINS at the point when that part is DONE.

 

And THAT is where most of the home educators I have personally met fail. They're satisfied with that point, period. "Teaching to cover the material" and "teaching to the standardized tests" approach. "We do X pages of that and write Y pages of that, that was our today's work", "we discuss things based on the questions in the book", etc.

I mean, okay, but you could perfectly do all of that with a child in the system; in fact, what a lot of people do is basically just going QUICKER through the system (since they're in the situation of being able to "adjust" it to themselves, by picking the materials they like more, working on their pace, etc.), which is giving them the illusion of doing BETTER. MORE, from the quantitative point of view, maybe; but not necessarily better. A lot of those kids know "more" simply because they were exposed to more CONTENT, not because they gained DEPTH.

 

Personally I cringe when I see those colorful Latin programs, which usually take two years to teach you what you would learn in one semester in any good "old school" classical school. Or when I see Latin taught via proverbs and "fossilized" pieces of knowledge nobody is versed in any more. Or when I see Literature taught via "what did the author want to communicate" or "let's see who can read more symbols into the book" approach. Or when I see students not knowing what a scientific theory is and what's the relation between theory and proofs. Or when I see a foreign language taught via RS.

You see, all of those are EXACTLY what public school system works like. They do it on less content and usually slacking more, but ESSENTIALLY, METHOD-WISE, it's the same approach. By covering more with that same approach you aren't necessarily giving your children anything they would not get in the school anyway. "Independent learning" is the same thing, they would have worked on their assignments anyway and would have to cram in some independent learning for tests.

 

That's why I believe the role of the parent is crucial and NOT only as a facilitator in order to "get the content done", NOT only as somebody who asks questions to see if the student has learned or who corrects papers.

I see the parent as the involved conversant, who may - and should - require "preparation" for "sessions" with him, but essentially, it comes down to the good quality dialogue, to going through the RELATIONS between various areas, to getting things done not only on the level of familiarity but inclining more towards mastery and in-depth understanding, to spending a lot of TIME, even if not directly teaching, with your student. Yes, it DOES take a lot of time. And the one who leads the process should DEFINITELY know the material and care about it, because you can neither debate, let alone TEACH, what you don't KNOW.

 

So in many ways I agree with Michelle's point, though I realize she might have had some different concerns in her mind originally.

 

The thing is... My entire semi-rant can be summed up in this: "having" the information is the LOWEST level of knowledge. There's a HUGE, HUGE gap between "having an information" and "being able to operate with it in its context"... let alone between the former and "being able to MANIPULATE with it in its context AND OUT OF IT", which should be the ultimate goal.

As long as you promote having the information and applying it in its system, you are basically not THAT removed from the public school system, you just do it on a more advanced content.

 

Ester Maria, I so enjoyed reading this and thinking about everything you've said. So much of it is right on!

My only problem is that what you're saying sounds like my goals, what I strive for. It lacks a human element in my opinion, that our objective, our lives don't always stay on the path we planned for. There doesn't seem to be much room for error or the curve balls life throws us.

 

Some of what you've written makes me think of the mom who will chastise someone elses child for being too this or too that only to have their own child exhibit the same undesirable behavior for the next 10 years :D.

What would you do if one of your children didn't respond to your academic philosophy? What good are all these well stated, intelligent beliefs if they just don't work with one of your kids? It happens! I should know, I've barely been able to read books out loud this year because my 8yo starts to get loud vocal tics every time I pick up a book. Ugh!

 

Flexibility and humility are key!

Edited January 16, 2010 by helena

[kalanamak]

Well, ds12 has now outstripped me in math as of this year. That's because I did not study this high of a math at 7th grade (or even later).!

 

This is why I'm running hard. I didn't ever have Alg II or even trig. I *know* I have to study.

[Colleen]

I hope not. I am currently studying well ahead of him, and hope to keep it up. I wasn't referring to electives like Urdu, but the standards of LA, math, history, science and the arts *I expect of him*. I feel very grateful that a turn to homeschooling has given me the motivation of to make up for the "new math" and "twaddle English" I was fed in school in the 60's, teachers who said things like "she did real well", and a student body so wildly dedicated to football, I dropped out at age 16.

 

I realize I have a long ways to go. But my night table has two diagramming books in it and I try to do 10 sentences a night, and today I listened to a lecture on the Lutheran cantata while I commuted to and from work. Tomorrow I will clean the upstairs with an intro to the Universe on the vid (the boys are in the mountains for two days).

That's terrific that you're applying yourself in this manner. Truly! People's circumstances and interests differ, of course, but you're in a place you're able and willing to self-educate as you educate, and that's wonderful and commendable.:)

I have been disappointed in the public-school-on-line homeschoolers I have met. Mom sometimes seems proud of how this is (in our state) free and effortless on her part. I guess I view it as a journey together, and yes, I hope to have a up-to-snuff high school education in all the required subjects by the time kiddo graduates. I would wish that of all intellectually capable citizens the world over.

But...do you not see that your perspective might in turn seem "proud" to the people whom you described? Understand, I by no means share that perspective. I'm familiar with you and know better ~ and you certainly didn't come off here as proud by any means. I'm merely trying to define the value (or lack thereof) of these comparisons.

[kalanamak]

That's terrific that you're applying yourself in this manner. Truly! People's circumstances and interests differ, of course, but you're in a place you're able and willing to self-educate as you educate, and that's wonderful and commendable.

 

There is a difference between circumstance and ability, and a lack of interest or willingness to gain high school level of education. I think a child pushing high school age can comprehend the difference.

 

Well, perhaps instead of saying it is hypocritical to expect your child to become educated to a level you are unwilling to pursue...let me say, instead, that they should simply be prepared to be disappointed. A good example set it worth far more than lectures, rules, requirements, etc, and an active effort to keep the mind sharp does not go unnoticed by a child. Same with the opposite.

Edited January 16, 2010 by kalanamak
spelling, as always

[GWOB]

Yep, this is getting on my nerves as well. It seems as though there is a lot of "Look at how hard I am working to stay ahead of my kid. Please pat me on the back" crud flying around. Well, let me just come out and say this. (Warning: Wendi may likely get slightly ghetto on you!) My mommy and daddy were dirt poor and completely sub-par parents. Honestly, they s*cked. I did not have the opportunity to study at some wonderful university. I joined the Navy to get far, FAR away. After I got out, I attended community college and (GASP!!!) an online university to obtain my degree. Yep, I know some will look down on my degree. Send my a PM. I will gladly forward you the multitude of papers I wrote. What does this mean? I busted my bum teaching myself. My kids witnessed every moment of that experience. I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new. Granted, I am younger (not yet 30), but the message was recieved. Nope, I do not know every learning theory or methodology out there. But you know what? I KNOW what is best for MY kids. I KNOW how they learn. I don't need any self-righteous homeschooler telling me I am doing it wrong. I have a ps-school-teaching mother-in-law for that. I come here for support. I don't come here to hear that my putting my kids in front of a "Planet Earth" DVD for science one day so I can take a flipping shower is some sort of derelection of my duty. I have three kids. My dh works long hours. I do not have my mommy or daddy around for support. I do it all on my own. Perhaps other homeschoolers judge you. Maybe they are talking about your insane goals RIGHT THIS MOMENT!!! You know what I learned today (right along with my children- the horror!!!)? Joy comes when you do not take yourself too seriously. Read Hero Tales. You may learn something.

 

Done.

[kalanamak]

I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new.

 

My point exactly.

 

BTW, I love your board name. It always makes me smile.

[GWOB]

My point exactly.

 

BTW, I love your board name. It always makes me smile.

 

Thanks! I love Christmas, and since it was close to Christmas when I joined, it only seemed fitting.

[Pink Fairy]

Yep, this is getting on my nerves as well. It seems as though there is a lot of "Look at how hard I am working to stay ahead of my kid. Please pat me on the back" crud flying around. Well, let me just come out and say this. (Warning: Wendi may likely get slightly ghetto on you!) My mommy and daddy were dirt poor and completely sub-par parents. Honestly, they s*cked. I did not have the opportunity to study at some wonderful university. I joined the Navy to get far, FAR away. After I got out, I attended community college and (GASP!!!) an online university to obtain my degree. Yep, I know some will look down on my degree. Send my a PM. I will gladly forward you the multitude of papers I wrote. What does this mean? I busted my bum teaching myself. My kids witnessed every moment of that experience. I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new. Granted, I am younger (not yet 30), but the message was recieved. Nope, I do not know every learning theory or methodology out there. But you know what? I KNOW what is best for MY kids. I KNOW how they learn. I don't need any self-righteous homeschooler telling me I am doing it wrong. I have a ps-school-teaching mother-in-law for that. I come here for support. I don't come here to hear that my putting my kids in front of a "Planet Earth" DVD for science one day so I can take a flipping shower is some sort of derelection of my duty. I have three kids. My dh works long hours. I do not have my mommy or daddy around for support. I do it all on my own. Perhaps other homeschoolers judge you. Maybe they are talking about your insane goals RIGHT THIS MOMENT!!! You know what I learned today (right along with my children- the horror!!!)? Joy comes when you do not take yourself too seriously. Read Hero Tales. You may learn something.

 

Done.

 

So many good posts in this thread, but this one's my favorite.

[jujsky]

Yep, this is getting on my nerves as well. It seems as though there is a lot of "Look at how hard I am working to stay ahead of my kid. Please pat me on the back" crud flying around. Well, let me just come out and say this. (Warning: Wendi may likely get slightly ghetto on you!) My mommy and daddy were dirt poor and completely sub-par parents. Honestly, they s*cked. I did not have the opportunity to study at some wonderful university. I joined the Navy to get far, FAR away. After I got out, I attended community college and (GASP!!!) an online university to obtain my degree. Yep, I know some will look down on my degree. Send my a PM. I will gladly forward you the multitude of papers I wrote. What does this mean? I busted my bum teaching myself. My kids witnessed every moment of that experience. I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new. Granted, I am younger (not yet 30), but the message was recieved. Nope, I do not know every learning theory or methodology out there. But you know what? I KNOW what is best for MY kids. I KNOW how they learn. I don't need any self-righteous homeschooler telling me I am doing it wrong. I have a ps-school-teaching mother-in-law for that. I come here for support. I don't come here to hear that my putting my kids in front of a "Planet Earth" DVD for science one day so I can take a flipping shower is some sort of derelection of my duty. I have three kids. My dh works long hours. I do not have my mommy or daddy around for support. I do it all on my own. Perhaps other homeschoolers judge you. Maybe they are talking about your insane goals RIGHT THIS MOMENT!!! You know what I learned today (right along with my children- the horror!!!)? Joy comes when you do not take yourself too seriously. Read Hero Tales. You may learn something.

 

Done.

 

I've gotta agree. Wendi, this is by far my favorite post on this thread :D

[Colleen]

Yep, this is getting on my nerves as well.

I understand. The discussion isn't getting on my nerves, but I've felt that way with regard to other threads. The best response to that feeling is to stop reading and/or responding to the thread.:)

It seems as though there is a lot of "Look at how hard I am working to stay ahead of my kid. Please pat me on the back" crud flying around.

I hear that, too, but the truth is that it flies both ways. That's always, always the case in these conversations ~ and as my post count might reveal, I've been around for many of them. The heart of the problem is that (many) women are prone to comparisons, and (many) homeschoolers are prone to defensiveness. Taken together, the two can be a deadly combination.;)

I attended community college and (GASP!!!) an online university to obtain my degree...I busted my bum teaching myself. My kids witnessed every moment of that experience. I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new.

I'd venture to say every single person who has posted to this thread is on the same page ~ particularly kalanamak, a high-school drop-out, to whom you replied (perhaps inadvertently).

I don't need any self-righteous homeschooler telling me I am doing it wrong.

I don't believe anyone in this discussion is suffering from self-righteousness, but I do understand why it's coming across that way ~ particularly to people like you, who have some baggage in tow. People seem unable or unwilling to discuss this subject without making comparisons. It can't simply be a matter of "This is what I do and why". It becomes, "This is what I do and why ~ and I'm annoyed with/disappointed in those who don't see that this is THE better way." Perhaps that's simply human nature. I hear and understand your frustration.

[GWOB]

I understand. The discussion isn't getting on my nerves, but I've felt that way with regard to other threads. The best response to that feeling is to stop reading and/or responding to the thread.:)I hear that, too, but the truth is that it flies both ways. That's always, always the case in these conversations ~ and as my post count might reveal, I've been around for many of them. The heart of the problem is that (many) women are prone to comparisons, and (many) homeschoolers are prone to defensiveness. Taken together, the two can be a deadly combination.;)I'd venture to say every single person who has posted to this thread is on the same page ~ particularly kalanamak, a high-school drop-out, to whom you replied (perhaps inadvertently).I don't believe anyone in this discussion is suffering from self-righteousness, but I do understand why it's coming across that way ~ particularly to people like you, who have some baggage in tow. People seem unable or unwilling to discuss this subject without making comparisons. It can't simply be a matter of "This is what I do and why". It becomes, "This is what I do and why ~ and I'm annoyed with/disappointed in those who don't see that this is THE better way." Perhaps that's simply human nature. I hear and understand your frustration.

 

Dude. Perspective. Thanks.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is a difference between circumstance and ability, and a lack of interest or willingness to gain high school level of education. I think a child pushing high school age can comprehend the difference.

 

Well, perhaps instead of saying it is hypocritical to expect your child to become educated to a level you are unwilling to pursue...let me say, instead, that they should simply be prepared to be disappointed. A good example set it worth far more than lectures, rules, requirements, etc, and an active effort to keep the mind sharp does not go unnoticed by a child. Same with the opposite.

 

But see, I have a high school education - an expensive college prep one no less. And I also have a B.A. and was the top of my major. And I have a M.A. with a 4.0. But - math is not my subject. My kids know that math is not my subject. But they also know that I regret not having gotten a better handle on it. They also know that I have increased my math ability and love to learn. So I have set a good example of self education. And I do make an active effort to keep my mind sharp. But - my oldest child has outstripped me. And I hope he's going to continue to outstrip me - even in other subjects. What he will get as a high school education will be nothing like what I got even though by school rankings/ratings I got one of the better ones.

[mominbc]

I am a little puzzled. When a child is being taught by DVD or some other form, how is that different than sitting in a class with the teacher at the front teaching.:confused: Because the teacher can answer questions? Well if you have someone available to you that can answer the question how is that failing your child? Don't PS kid have to go home and read their texts and answer questions independently? It's clear from all the posts that the problems with us knowing everything our children are learning comes mainly when our children hit highschool, but has the OP ever homeschooled their child in highschool to show us "The better way?" There have been some wonderful success stories of independant learners in this thread and I am sure there are many others. We all go through difficult times in our homeschool journey, I am sure glad that I didn't believe I couldn't allow my child to learn independantly when I went through mine and stuck them in school. They have done wonderfully, and my son has done extremely well with highschool provincial testing even when I didn't have all the answers for him. This has been a great thread with so many encouraging stories. May we leave this encouraged to continue on as imperfect as we are and give our children the best we are able to give. :)

[StephanieZ]

To some degree, (nearly) everyone teaches to her own limits. . .

 

and I think self-teaching programs (online, DVD, text, or tutor. . .) can allow a mother to teach BEYOND her limits. . .

 

To some extent, the OP's original argument could be turned to "Is a hs mom who doesn't (learn/master, then turn around and) teach instrument study, foreign language, etc lazy/in the wrong?"

 

My dc study Spanish with nice self-teaching materials and biweekly tutoring sessions. They study instruments with (weekly) private teacher sessions. Personally, I learn/teach pretty much everything else.

 

But, I can't see that it is necessarily WRONG to use the tutor/self-teaching approch to any other topic (even the core ones) just like I do for Spanish and instruments, so long as the child is learning the material and the parent has some mechanism of ensuring that is so and rectifying any problems that arise.

 

We dropped Latin altogether largely b/c I was too lazy to learn it well enough to coach/tutor it and it wasn't important enough to me to find a tutor for. Spanish was/is important enough for me to find a tutor, so I did and so the kids pretty much self-teach and use the tutor for support. . .

 

A thought experiment:::

 

Many parents don't choose instrument study for their dc. (Many reasons abound.) Say, you DO choose instrument study for your dc. . .

 

Traditional/classic/ideal Suzuki instrument study requires the parent to learn the instrument along with/ahead of the child so that the parent can be a more effective home-teacher/coach at home between lessons. I have known a couple moms who actually did that. I never did. I gaped in shock and dismay at the occasional suggestion that I do so. I simply could never have found the time to practice for an hour a day as it was not important enough to me.

 

Suzuki instrument study already required/needed the parent to sit with/help the child throughout each practice session. So, when my dc were 3-9 y.o. I had 3 kids doing a total of FIVE instruments. 20-50 min/day on each instrument per child. Even w/o allowing for lessons/time buying music/finding teacher/signing up for summer workshops/driving to lessons/etc, that was about 2 1/2 hours of PRACTICE time total each day for the mom, lengthening each year. . .

 

And, about $8,000-10,000/yr in hard costs in instruments and teacher fees -- which has always been and still is a shockingly outsize part of our imaginary budget.

 

It was incomprehensible to me to add in to our family economy the time and money for me to learn the instruments as well. And by the time my oldest was 9, there were THREE instruments being learned (two older dc on two each, so FIVE total child/instrument combos). It would have been obvious lunacy for me to learn harp, guitar, and violin!!

 

There is also an expectation that the parent sit with the child during practices, up until they are pretty darn old. Maybe 12ish is the *Ideal* transition age. My dc have transitioned to part-time mom-listening much earlier. By 9 or so, the dc are 90% independent during practices.

 

However, one could make an argument that I was lazy to not learn the instruments and not to continue to sit/coach throughout practices until they were much older. If I had accepted that expectation, I would certainly have made the choice to drop instrument study altogether as there is no way I could have found time to make learning any instrument (let alone 3) a high enough priority to make it happen for myself. Instead, I compromised, and did not learn to play any instrument. I did make myself the best lesson-mom I could be. I attend lessons with concentration, take detailed notes, monitor practices carefully, share enthusiasm and appreciation. . .

 

But I do not learn the instruments myself. . . and I do not attentively sit through every practice session (which now total over 4 hours per day in my house among the 3 dc and 4+ instruments).

 

Soo, the intended result of my thought experiment is not to frighten parents away from Suzuki instrument study (which I actually think is one of the absolute best gifts I have provided my dc), but rather to suggest that compromises with the ideal are not always a bad thing. Compromises might allow us to do MORE than what we could do if we adhered to our ideal at all times.

 

Just a thought. ..

[chaik76]

If my kids still need me to teach them everything by the time they reach high school, I will feel that I didn't do a very good job homeschooling them. My aim is to teach them how to learn on their own, not just how to be taught by others. I don't expect that I will know all the material they learn, and I am fine with that.

 

Tara

This is how I feel, too.

 

Right now, I do have an eight-year old that knows more about me in some areas. Computers for instance. He's also exceptionally advanced in science. He knows more about Chemistry, biology, and genetics that I will ever know in a million years. At eight. There is no way I can keep up with him in science...I can provide him the resources, and in our case we are very lucky because my husband is a Chemistry professor, so science is covered...but if he were advanced in something else, that might not be the case. I'm here to provide resources, to find mentors if I can't be of help and to teach those subjects I can (most). He'll pass me in math pretty soon...I only went through Algebra II. And no, I really don't plan on learning Trig and Calculus. My job is to teach my son to learn, not to teach him subjects (though part of teaching him to learn at age eight is teaching him subjects). My goal (which will hopefully become his goal at some point) is to hopefully help my children become autonomous learners.

[Night Elf]

Job doesn't have to have a negative connotation. When I use the word job I mean it is your responsibility and should be done in a thorough manner as if you were getting a paycheck for it.

 

Yes, I did my best when I was getting paid for a job. But I never had the level of love, caring, and nurturing I feel with my family. I absolutely do go above and beyond what I would give in a paid job position. I accept that I have responsibilities, but when I hear the word 'job' when referred to on a homechool board, I picture allowance being doled out at the end of the week to kids and main homeschool parents for doing their work. I have specifically chosen not to follow such an example in my home. Salary should not be the main motivation to follow through with a responsibility.

[TechWife]

I never had a teacher give me extra help after elementary school.

 

I did and so did my brother. Of course, this was over 30 years ago.:svengo:

[Haiku]

What a discouraging, disappointing thread. I'm really surprised that homeschoolers would think that kids teaching themselves and knowing more than their parents is a bad thing. In fact, I'm shocked.

 

:(

 

Tara

[Night Elf]

I think you all have misunderstood me by defining "teaching" in a narrow way as in just #5 above "to conduct instruction regulary in <teach school>. :001_smile:

 

The word 'teach' can be a hot button, even for brick-and-mortar school teachers. If a child doesn't comprehend the material and fails the testing of that material, the teacher can be blamed for not having good teaching skills. Their jobs can be on the line. My state, Georgia, has had numerous cases of teachers and principals rig testing to ensure no sign of failure.

 

I've interpreted one of the strands of this thread to assign blame to the teacher, or homeschooling parent, if the child is behind peers in work. On this board, we've talked about parents who push their children too hard, and those who don't seem to push enough. Even one poster in this thread has admitted that she has expectations of other homeschool parents. Can't this idea be a 'keeping up with the jonses' or even 'my kid knows more and is smarter than your kid.'

 

Actually, I read through every post by MIch Elle in this thread, and the first clarification of the intention of her original post was to display anger at homeschooling parents who don't do upper level classes with their children, and their unwillingness to learn the material with their children. She specifically talked about parents who don't bother to learn the basics in the early years so they can help with the later years. She also agreed that a relaxed homeschool method can put a child way behind public school peers, and that perhaps that is sad, though I didn't get her specific feelings on that. And finally, she defined the word teach, specifically focusing on the meaning that teaching is also guiding.

 

My defense mechanism went up, and I apologize for the quickly written retort. My excuse is that I really do know some subjects well from the elementary and middle school years, but my skills and knowledge do not continue onto the high school level. My ds13 explains Algebra 1 to me most days. I'm a sounding board really, because my batting average for actually helping or getting a correct answer, is extremely low. So apparently, the years of math that have led to Algebra 1 really did not prepare me for this level of math. So I'll either be seen as a dumb*ss, or a mother who doesn't care about her son's education since I leave the instruction to an outside source. Maybe I should hold him back until I understand the material. Wouldn't that be me regulating his pace of learning just like a public school does?

 

And though the question was not directed to me about a child being smarter than a parent, I'd like to answer. My son knows gads of information about science, history, and geography. He read about those subjects all the time, even outside his assignments throughout the years. The last time I tried to 'teach' him history was using the Hakim series with K12. I would read aloud, and he would say he knew it already. I've already mentioned his math skills outstrip mine, and his grammar skills seem to have developed overnight. His way of learning is definitely different than mine. I simply do not see that as a bad thing, or a reason to put him back in school where a supposed real teacher can help him. That's not a reasonable expectation.

[calandalsmom]

I think there is plenty of self righteousness here in this thread- especially wrt a specific math curriculum which receives continuous criticism here on this board. Im amused more than affronted by the incessant outright bashing of certain programs (well, most of the time.)

 

 

My child is what he is. His weaknesses would be present in any environment. His strengths MIGHT be recognized elsewhere or maybe not- they were not in his 2 yrs of school. So glad to be home with him to give him the luxury to read all day if he has a good book on hand.

[countrykiddos]

I haven't read many responses to this post, but my first reaction is that, if you are implying that the level of knowledge/education of an individual cannot exceed that of an instructor or facilitator, than I believe that this philosophy has been dis-proven since the beginning of time.

[angela in ohio]

I also think my delight in broadening my knowledge is one of the biggest lessons I can teach my son.

 

:iagree:

Edited January 16, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Haiku]

I find this:

 

I think it very hypocritical to believe my son should know something and not bother to learn it myself.

 

and this:

 

The ability to learn on one’s own is normally the result of a good education, not the cause of it.

 

together in the same post, given the content of this thread, amusing. :001_smile:

 

Tara

[Murphy101]

I'm with Night Elf and Tara on this one.

 

And I don't think it is hypocritical of me to expect my children to go beyond my learning to learn on a higher level or simply diferent things. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that is one of my goals in their education.

 

I am very involved in what my children learn, but I do not feel an inclination to do everything they do.

 

I can learn anything. I've learned that. But I've also learned it would take me triple the time to learn the higher math than my son. The notion that I'd hold him back until I caught up never occurred to me. I'm here to help and to guide as best I can. If he comes to me with a question I can't answer, then that's where another goal of educating my children comes into play. It is not just filling them with knowledge, it's teaching them how to seek knowledge. For the rest of their life, there will be things they need to learn and they will have to know how to seek that information from somewhere other than a teacher.

 

Thank you for helping me refine some of my educational goals. Thinking out this thread really reminded me of some of them.

[Jean in Newcastle]

One more thing that I realized through reading this thread. I did really well at keeping ahead of my son (even far ahead) until I had another child. Then it slowed and as my daughter and her needs grew, I eventually could not keep working ahead.

[LibraryLover]

I've gotta agree. Wendi, this is by far my favorite post on this thread :D

 

 

I especially like the prose of 'flipping shower'. :001_smile: Extra credit (!!?! lol) for good use of the phrase 'dereliction of my hsing duties'.

[Ester Maria]

What would you do if one of your children didn't respond to your academic philosophy? What good are all these well stated, intelligent beliefs if they just don't work with one of your kids? It happens! [...] Flexibility and humility are key!

I'll think about that hypothetical situation IF and WHEN it happens and becomes concrete, because what I have currently at home is different. And I firmly believe that part of the reason WHY it is lies in the "nurture" (while I of course recognize the importance of the "nature" and the fact that many individual characteristics our children have are innate), in the overall approach to education and other aspects of life we have at home. I am definitely not claiming that our specific way of doing things would work with every child, but with ours it did, and it's not that we never came across difficulties or that it was never challenged. On our way we have also made changes with regards to the crash of "ideal" and "realistic" in some cases. Happens. In fact probably ALL of us here have dealt with it in some form.

 

It's just that we're the type of parents who first try some other things, and THEN "teach the child to their needs", when it's definite that it's the NEEDS we're talking about, not "needs". One of our daughters had a hyperactive phase when she was younger, which amongst other things reflected in our schooling too; we FIRST cut the white sugar out completely, then saw what else could be done nutritionally, then we cut the technology out (with reintroducing it later, but in small doses), found physical activities, concentration exercises and challenging activities which required concentration, sent her to family abroad a little to change the climate (a typical "cure for all" of my family has been a travel and the change of climate - physical as well as social and spiritual - if possible and financially doable, of course), etc., and THEN the next step would have been seeing if it's really some form of ADHD and if it really requires adjustment of the instruction with regards to that. But nowadays, instead of having a child on meds she didn't really need and/or tolerating certain things at home, I have a healthy child with no diagnosis, though she is STILL prone to some hyperactivity and loss of concentration if she doesn't eat well or if she has too much screen time, and she prefers to do academics in smaller chunks than her sister, since she needs more change of activity. So in her case, obviously, there was no real need to "adjust" to her, but rather to adjust HER to a more healthy lifestyle she will have to lead in order to deal with the states she's prone to and prevent them. BUT, HAD there been a need to adjust to her educationally after all we tried, I would have done that. Each child is different, and I'm aware of that.

That's only one example, but what I'm trying to show is that I have no wunderkinder at home who have always responded perfectly on everything I tried, but I still thought some things too important to give up on them too easily.

 

As I'm currently pregnant (that might explain some of the fits I have and my being just incredibly happy all the time :D), there is indeed a possibility the next child will be nothing like his/her older sisters. I am confident that I will manage to find a way to educate a different child as well, though I realize that I might have to compromise some things - and that's okay.

If I don't find a way, there is always an option of being honest with myself and allowing others to take it from there and do what I couldn't do. If the child can't profit from the kind of education I offer, and if I can't make some reasonable compromise that we would both be okay with, at the end of the day, there sure are plenty of schools offering various types of education. If my child and I don't "click" academically, we can certainly connect with each other on many, many other levels. :) Like you said, flexibility and humanity.

I haven't read many responses to this post, but my first reaction is that, if you are implying that the level of knowledge/education of an individual cannot exceed that of an instructor or facilitator, than I believe that this philosophy has been dis-proven since the beginning of time.

The thing they used almost as a mantra in the school I attended... "What kind of students you are if you DO NOT surpass your instructors?" ;)

[Renee in NC]

This is why I'm running hard. I didn't ever have Alg II or even trig. I *know* I have to study.

 

You got into med school without Calculus?:001_huh:

[kalanamak]

You got into med school without Calculus?:001_huh:

 

Only 1/3 of the schools required a year of it. University of Kansas required one semester. In my work, Greek or Latin would be more helpful. I believe radiation oncologists (docs who do nothing but radiation treatment on cancer patients) need it, or so I was told once.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I hope not. I am currently studying well ahead of him, and hope to keep it up.

I wasn't referring to electives like Urdu, but the standards of LA, math, history, science and the arts *I expect of him*. I feel very grateful that a turn to homeschooling has given me the motivation of to make up for the "new math" and "twaddle English" I was fed in school in the 60's, teachers who said things like "she did real well", and a student body so wildly dedicated to football, I dropped out at age 16.

 

I realize I have a long ways to go. But my night table has two diagramming books in it and I try to do 10 sentences a night, and today I listened to a lecture on the Lutheran cantata while I commuted to and from work. Tomorrow I will clean the upstairs with an intro to the Universe on the vid (the boys are in the mountains for two days).

 

I have been disappointed in the public-school-on-line homeschoolers I have met. Mom sometimes seems proud of how this is (in our state) free and effortless on her part. I guess I view it as a journey together, and yes, I hope to have a up-to-snuff high school education in all the required subjects by the time kiddo graduates. I would wish that of all intellectually capable citizens the world over.

 

 

The online public school that we use is not effortless to say the least;) It is mostly parent led instruction. The online school provides lesson plans and instructions, answer keys, and guidance for the parents. Now I have heard of online school that offer all online classes mostly for older children, but I I still think it requires a lot of parental involvement and over sight IMHO. OTOH, I can see using some outside sources such as online classes when he is older, but I still think it requires a lot of parental involvement and oversight in regards to checking progress in learning and checking work:) I also believe in my involvement as much as possible and at the same time fostering independence as they get older and a love of learning:)

Edited January 16, 2010 by priscilla
clarify

[Storm Bay]

This is why I'm running hard. I didn't ever have Alg II or even trig. I *know* I have to study.

 

 

Hopefully your dc won't be like my dd. She absolutely hated to do math with me or to talk with me about math until relatively recently. Like me, she prefers to learn math from a book. Some dc hate to talk about every single subject at some ages, and I think we have to be careful about categorizing our dc. Now dd likes to talk about math sometimes when she feels like it (she's 14) and it's come because I haven't forced her to do it by me teaching her when she wanted to learn it on her own. Naturally I have made sure she understands what she's doing, but generally by grading her work. She's been like this with most subjects and is finally ready to start discussing what she learns.

 

That said, we do a great deal of discussion in our lives that involves learning and thinking, but it hasn't necessarily been academically related (other than about evolution/creationism/ID or a few other things.)

[Storm Bay]

One more thing that I realized through reading this thread. I did really well at keeping ahead of my son (even far ahead) until I had another child. Then it slowed and as my daughter and her needs grew, I eventually could not keep working ahead.

 

 

Yes, number of children and the personalities and learning styles of those dc make a huge difference. I'm so busy prereading my eldest's history & English reading for next semester so I know how to assign & grade her work that I can't possibly be getting ahead on every subject & still take care of my other two dc & grade their work, etc. I can't preread everything all my dc read, either.

[KathyBC]

I have been disappointed in the public-school-on-line homeschoolers I have met.

 

It's this statement that gives me pause. It places what you value over the valid, if not exceptional or inspiring, choices of others.

[Rosie_0801]

It's this statement that gives me pause. It places what you value over the valid, if not exceptional or inspiring, choices of others.

 

What a funny thing to say.

 

Rosie

[iammommy]

nt

[iammommy]

LOL!

[EKS]

You got into med school without Calculus?:001_huh:

 

Believe it or not, you can take calculus (and do quite well in it) without anything beyond a solid prealgebra base.

 

I know because I did it.

[Renee in NC]

Believe it or not, you can take calculus (and do quite well in it) without anything beyond a solid prealgebra base.

 

I know because I did it.

 

I'm sure. I was just shocked that she didn't need it for med school. When I was pre-med (15 years ago) we were told that we should absolutely take a year of calculus.

[EKS]

I'm sure. I was just shocked that she didn't need it for med school. When I was pre-med (15 years ago) we were told that we should absolutely take a year of calculus.

 

I didn't need it for application to med/grad school either (I applied to MD-PhD programs 20 years ago). I had to take it as a biochemistry major.

[kalanamak]

I'm sure. I was just shocked that she didn't need it for med school. When I was pre-med (15 years ago) we were told that we should absolutely take a year of calculus.

 

I was told that, too, but by Mr. Pompous, the younger-than-me college advisor, the same jerk who said I'd have to take "pre-chem" because he'd "never heard of my undergrad school". Didn't take that class, either.:001_smile:

The toughest math in med school is nothing as bad as the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation. Not a spec of trig.

[Renee in NC]

I was told that, too, but by Mr. Pompous, the younger-than-me college advisor, the same jerk who said I'd have to take "pre-chem" because he'd "never heard of my undergrad school". Didn't take that class, either.:001_smile:

The toughest math in med school is nothing as bad as the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation. Not a spec of trig.

 

HA! Pre-chem. I never took Chem in high school (I was a dropout as well) and thought it would be so tough. It wasn't! I had a much harder time with Music Appreciation!:lol:

[KathyBC]

How so? I deleted more than I posted, so perhaps I left out all sense? I'll try to flesh it out a bit.

 

Not every individual or family has the same strengths and weaknesses. I find many on this board to be exceptional and inspiring. But I don't share their aspirations. I do find it strange when they are disappointed in others, though. Those same families they're so disappointed in might find other areas of life easy and be surprised more people don't value those areas.

 

See... clunky writing, eh? Not expressing myself well. Does it at least make more sense?

[keptwoman]

Colour me another annoyed by the superior attitudes of some in this thread.

 

One more thing that I realized through reading this thread. I did really well at keeping ahead of my son (even far ahead) until I had another child. Then it slowed and as my daughter and her needs grew, I eventually could not keep working ahead.

Yes, it was easy to keep ahead of my 7yo when I removed him from school in grade 1. And if he were the only child I was schooling I'm sure I'd be able to work with him through every subject having learnt it prior myself.

 

I didn't have a hope of ever getting ahead of my eldest when I removed him to start homeschooling at Grade 8.

 

And now that I am homeschooling 3 children I simply don't have time to self educate on all the things he is learning as well as plan and educate them.

 

So shoot me, he learns lots independently! But you know, he went to one of the better known "good" schools in the state and it turned out he hadn't turned in work all year and it took until 4 weeks before the end of the year for a teacher to tell me that. He got an A in his English report and he hadn't read the book, and had submitted 2 out of 5 things.

 

At least at home I know what he needs to do and I make sure it's done. His father helps when he gets stuck with maths and physics. I handed his French over to a Distance Ed provider because I dont know a stick of French, and he is now a full year ahead of his schooled peers in it. There are lots of other things he gets to do at home around his passion that he would not get to do at school and he has skills in that area that far surpass most highschoolers.

 

I readily admit that his education may not be as good as it would be if I was an expert in every subject, but it's still a good, thorough education which will equip him well for life and university. And really, what more does he need?

[kalanamak]

It's this statement that gives me pause. It places what you value over the valid, if not exceptional or inspiring, choices of others.

 

I met them at work and they did it to merely to isolate a child from school because of what older sibs did. One was "rewarded" by being allowed go to his senior year in the flesh. I know one is not doing well psychiatrically, in his 20's. Really, these would depress anyone. I don't think any of these boys were "bad", but sibs were.

 

None of these mothers had any interest in homeschooling, just in keeping their kid away from other people the same age. One mother was depressed and drank a fair amount, the other two are bitterbitterbitter. Never a smile or amusing word.

 

None of the boys went on in school, except one who got some training before going to Iraq. He fell apart and had to come home. Mom is having a hard time coping with this. All very sad.

[happyhomemaker25]

I use TT. Against my better judgement. It was not a matter of me not wanting to learn with my child. I was enjoying learning Saxon Math. She was not. She hated it. Every day was a battle. No matter what. Now she loves math. She is doing well. I don't do it because I'm lazy. I do have four other children to teach. I just choose not to fight the math battle any longer. Yes, I was making her do the work. It was to the point she was stuck at a table almost 7 days a week with math work she was refusing to do. We took away all of her extra curricula activities.

That is why we are using the more interactive TT now.

I am learning Latin alongside my kids. I am learning History and Science.

I feel bad because I hate TT compared to Saxon. Hate it. But for the sake of my child I have to GET OVER IT!

Some kids need more interaction like online classes or video courses than parents can provide.

[kalanamak]

Colour me another annoyed by the superior attitudes of some in this thread.

 

 

I readily admit that his education may not be as good as it would be if I was an expert in every subject, but it's still a good, thorough education which will equip him well for life and university. And really, what more does he need?

 

Where did this "expert" stuff come in? I advocate a high school education such that most people who graduated got in the US pre-1960. That is all.

 

I don't have that, so I'm trying to fill in my gaps. Maybe I'm kinky, but I think that a child benefits from a person to bounce things off of, to discuss books with. Actually, I suspect many posters here think a solid high school education is a pretty good idea for a homeschooling parent to have, and that discussing books is good, too.

 

But maybe I'm all wet, and this is a minority opinion. If so, I beg to disagree, and maintain: a solid high school education is good for a homeschooling parent to have, and discussing books with someone else, not just reading them, is good, too.:)

 

If not just good for the kids, rather selfishly I worry that some backlash against homeschooling could happen if too many lah de dah homeschoolers make the news. Particularly in my "which way is the wind blowing today" state.

 

(BTW, when I was in school in Canberra in the late 60's, the school was chest, head, and shoulders above what I got in the rural midwest of the US.)

[EKS]

HA! Pre-chem. I never took Chem in high school (I was a dropout as well) and thought it would be so tough. It wasn't! I had a much harder time with Music Appreciation!:lol:

 

I didn't take chemistry or physics in high school and managed just fine in college.

[stripe]

I have been disappointed in the public-school-on-line homeschoolers I have met.

? Is this radically different from other groups of people? (As an example, I've been disappointed with many doctors I've met, too.) Not trying to be too cynical, but there's no reason to expect every other homeschooling parent will be your soul mate. There's a reason to hope, perhaps, but not to expect it.

[keptwoman]

Where did this "expert" stuff come in? I advocate a high school education such that most people who graduated got in the US pre-1960. That is all.

 

(BTW, when I was in school in Canberra in the late 60's, the school was chest, head, and shoulders above what I got in the rural midwest of the US.)

That's interesting. I wonder if it is still the same, I've heard not but I guess it also depends on each individual school.

 

I did get a highschool education, I've even got part of a university education, but that doesn't mean I understood or retained what I learnt at highschool and my uni papers are, as far as content is concerned, largely useless in helping the kids in all but art.

 

Also, much of what J is doing I have never seen in my life, grammar for ex. which I really, really want to find time to do, but I certainly don't have time to learn or relearn that AND maths AND physics (which I did at HS and don't remember anything about) AND French AND all his history reading (SL300 has a lot of books!!!) etc etc etc.

Time's pretty taken up just getting through the day and working with each child along with planning. In an ideal world, where I'd known I'd be homeschooling a highschooler I'd probably be more familiar with the material but it's not an ideal world.

 

I understand the desire to relearn or learn for the first time, the desire to better yourself and show a good example as a lifelong learner. I absolutely ascribe to that.

 

What I object to is the idea that a child can not get a good education in a subject if the parent isn't completely familiar with the material. I don't believe that to be the case. I do believe it's necessary to have someone handy for the child get help from that knows the material, but it doesn't have to be the primary homeschool parent. And to suggest that a parent is a poor homeschooler because they don't learn/relearn ahead of the children is insulting to many people doing a fine job.

Edited January 17, 2010 by keptwoman