Suggestion to have longer school hours and no summer break....

[ma23peas]

I could read the writing on the wall when kids started getting out in June and starting back the first of August, gone were the days of ending school in May and starting after Labor Day..I knew our government was pushing for a year round school and I knew several states are "guinea" pigs for the effectiveness of such a schedule. But, today when I read about LONGER hours for schools, I just felt defeated.

 

When will they get it? More money for education has failed, increased administration, NO child left behind, all those have had little to no impact...so instead of looking at the actual machinations of a failing system they throw yet another coat of icing on the cake...to the detriment of our society. The government is finding a way to limit the influence the child's own parents have on him/her....keep them in the system as long as possible.

 

How is it that my children can score above the 90th percentile and if you really added up the 'class hours' it would be 1/10th of the amount of time children are in school. My kids are not exceptionally bright, but they actually love to learn, they're just much more efficient about it...they know so much more than the Stanford test even touches on...I'm just hurting for all those kids that will most likely see this change unless very busy parents get busy on speaking up...I feel guilty for educating my own children and abandoning the discussion, I don't have time to fix that system.

 

Tara

[tricia]

I just saw and article on Yahoo where the idea of longer school days, including some work on the weekend and no more summer break was one of Obama's plans for the future. He said that children need more class time because according to him our children stand behind other nations academically.

 

While we are not a public school family I am curious how families will view this new idea.

[jujsky]

:iagree: with everything you're saying. It's sad that the government somehow thinks more time in the classroom and less time with family is going to somehow fix the education crisis in our country.

[Mandy in TN]

:iagree: with everything you're saying. It's sad that the government somehow thinks more time in the classroom and less time with family is going to somehow fix the education crisis in our country.

Another:iagree:and :confused:!

Mandy

[amy g.]

Here is another thing that bothers me. I have friends whose kids are doing really well in public school. Part of the reason is because they have very devoted parents who spend time and money on family time, private tutoring, and extra curricular activities.

 

If keeping their kids in public school meant they would not have summer vacations and time for family time, I believe they would pull them out.

 

If this happen in the more affluent, more educated families where parents can afford private schools or homeschooling, then I'm afraid that class divisions will only become more pronounced.

[sberry]

I know I am a newbie, but I think Amy G. hit the nail on the head.

[EthiopianFood]

He said that children need more class time because according to him our children stand behind other nations academically.

 

I didn't think this was just his opinion....

 

There is no reason not to school year round. Children forget so much over the summer, and so much time is wasted in the fall on review. Education shouldn't be seen as a burden, something to be endured. This is my opinion, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just find it easier to be direct (I was never any good at creative writing LOL). If these kids can barely read, don't know basic facts, etc., why aren't parents doing more to help their kids catch up at home? If more time with parents is the answer, then why isn't the time currently being spent at home enough to get kids caught up? There are so many contientious parents on this board who DO take the time to do this, but most parents (not here) don't do this! What exactly is the public school system supposed to do? Children can't learn wht they aren't taught. My niece has spent four weeks in school thus far, and she is STILL DOING REVIEW! According to my math, this is approx. 1/9 of the school year, on review!! If you are going to work within a public institution, which has to work with people from all walks of life (as they should!), then what else can they do but simply increase time spent teaching? I think weekend schooling is a bit much, and until they try year round school, I really hope they won't yet start longer school hours, but I don't think the basic premise is flawed.

 

Children learn best in an individualized setting. This can't happen with one teacher for 25 children. Time will be wasted. Not all methods will work for every child. Your child will be slowed by others, whether it is because they are advanced, trying to catch up (i.e. moving too quickly only leads to more confusion), or waiting for the teacher to deal with kids who do fall under either of these categories. To compensate, if children aren't learning, more time must be spent teaching. This is public education.

[Jen in PA]

Here is another thing that bothers me. I have friends whose kids are doing really well in public school. Part of the reason is because they have very devoted parents who spend time and money on family time, private tutoring, and extra curricular activities.

 

If keeping their kids in public school meant they would not have summer vacations and time for family time, I believe they would pull them out.

 

If this happen in the more affluent, more educated families where parents can afford private schools or homeschooling, then I'm afraid that class divisions will only become more pronounced.

 

:iagree:

 

It's certainly true that countries with longer school years and school days are getting the higher test scores, but that's only a small part of the picture. I suppose it's easier to tack on hours in the classroom instead of looking at societal influences like parental involvement, attitudes towards education, and school safety/discipline that also set some of those high-scoring nations apart.

[SonshineLearner]

I saw it too... Here's the deal. Mom has baby, government decides what to suggest for pumping full of different vaccines.... doctor asks what school they are going to... kids start school as soon as formula feeding is established. Of course, dinner will be served at school, if parents can't be trusted to feed said children.

No summer berries to pick anymore, play time not needed, except for recess at school...

I mean... If you want daycare fine! I used it for a while. I'd use it again....if I wanted to... but school mandated or paid for at age 3 or 4...and for the whole year...for the whole country.. is crazy! If boarding school works for certain high crime areas... fine... But here, I'd like the choice... and hope we'll continue to have it...and Pray... that my school choice isn't changed.... Maybe I want Hope and not Change:-) AT least not the way it's lookin'

 

I do agree that school the whole year is fine, just with only the hours and the days they already have. In fact, they could probably cut down the hours, if they did this. I think we need to separate teaching hours needed -v- child care needed.... and that would help us with our "problem".

Carrie:-)

Edited September 28, 2009 by NayfiesMama

[EthiopianFood]

Here is another thing that bothers me. I have friends whose kids are doing really well in public school. Part of the reason is because they have very devoted parents who spend time and money on family time, private tutoring, and extra curricular activities.

 

If keeping their kids in public school meant they would not have summer vacations and time for family time, I believe they would pull them out.

 

If this happen in the more affluent, more educated families where parents can afford private schools or homeschooling, then I'm afraid that class divisions will only become more pronounced.

 

This measure would be an attempt to HELP children who aren't as lucky. Doing nothing upholds class distinctions as well, because it sacrifices the needs of the struggling children and families for the desires of the wealthy.

[ma23peas]

I agree Amy!!

 

Am I too cynical to think the push for going for longer hours/schools is actually not for the education of our children but a hidden agenda to get more people in the workforce so that the government would have more money?? If their kids are in school all day, what's keeping the mom AND dad from working longer hours? I think there are money counters in DC figuring the tax intake shrinks during the summer breaks when many stay home with their children...

 

It was stated that Chinese children have fewer hours in school that ours do, but score higher....I remember this being interesting, we were watching a recently made video about life for a Chinese child. They ate breakfast together, went to school, did calisthenics and studies, returned HOME for lunch!! Then they went back for 2 hours of school and were done...I think they had 5 hours of actual school time...

 

I'm just very sad about all this.

 

Tara

[ma23peas]

Well, I'm guessing the Chinese score higher b/c most only have one child...hmmm wonder when that will become our solution?

 

Someone asked what are the public schools to do? revamp, that's what..it's a rotten system and coating it with yet another level of "guess this will work, we haven't tried it yet" will not change the underlying core is rotted. Cut out all these standardized tests, return reading to the schools...cut out busy work....I would rather throw out 1/2 the administrators for a core group of facilitators who work intensively with the parents...equip the parents and you'll equip the child...

 

Tara

[EthiopianFood]

Cut out all these standardized tests, return reading to the schools...cut out busy work....I would rather throw out 1/2 the administrators for a core group of facilitators who work intensively with the parents...equip the parents and you'll equip the child...

 

How will they hold schools accountable if they don't have a way to assess? Schools don't do reading (many people complain that they focus on this too early, to much!)? :confused: I think most teachers DO try to work with parents. What of the parents who don't care, don't value education, or don't have time because they have to work? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, but you don't think the underinvolved parents simply don't know that they are supposed to be involved, do you? And equip them to do what? This is why kids are given homework, to involve parents, and that doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.

[EthiopianFood]

it's a rotten system and coating it with yet another level of "guess this will work, we haven't tried it yet" will not change the underlying core is rotted.

 

My personal opinion is that this rotted core is the idea that mass education can ever maximize every single child's potential. "Public" education IS the rotted core. Unfortunately, not everyone can/wants to homeschool (which is certainly fine, our society isn't set up to make this feasible for many people), so mass education is what is left.

[ma23peas]

How will they hold schools accountable if they don't have a way to assess? Schools don't do reading (many people complain that they focus on this too early, to much!)? :confused: I think most teachers DO try to work with parents. What of the parents who don't care, don't value education, or don't have time because they have to work? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, but you don't think the underinvolved parents simply don't know that they are supposed to be involved, do you? And equip them to do what? This is why kids are given homework, to involve parents, and that doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.

 

I don't think they should hold the schools accountable, send it BACK to the parents, they're responsible for educating their child NOT the schools. Spend the funds assessing the parents, set up a win-win situation, give each parent a school fund...the more their child succeeds, the more benefits they receive (college funding, trade school options) similar to our health insurance plans or car insurance plans, why not have an education insurance plan? Many health insurance plans are incentivizing walking 10,000 steps a day..they give bonuses back to their members...why not do the same for the kids and parents? Parents who meet with their 'education consultant' so many times and show their 'work' or 10,000 steps then they receive tax credits or other. The issue now is the parents have lost all accountability, the conscientious ones encourage their children or pressure them in some cases...the absent ones were probably failures of the first system, so they feel useless, helpless or "what's in it for me?" My kid is out of my hair for 8 hours, or I'm too busy to help because I'm working 3 jobs, give them incentives! We have seen billions go out the window, if you put that in one form or another back into the control of the citizens rather than bureacracy, you'll see change.

 

Tara

[EthiopianFood]

I don't think they should hold the schools accountable, send it BACK to the parents ....We have seen billions go out the window, if you put that in one form or another back into the control of the citizens rather than bureacracy, you'll see change.

 

Shoot, it's worth a try! My only concern is the children of the parents who still won't do it. I have no idea what your life experience is, but you might (or might not, certainly) be surprised at how little some parents really do care about education. This just isn't fair to the kids, who have to suffer the consequences, sometimes for the rest of their lives. I don't want the government telling me how to raise my kids, but I also don't thnk children are the property of their parents. I don't know. Maybe there could still be a free help option, for those parents who just aren't going to do it?

[Pamela H in Texas]

What is even more dumb is that the difference between the U.S. and other countries academically is actually neglible. I was VERY surprised that we're within 3% on almost every subject. I may have posted the information a few months ago when I read it, but I'll see if I can find the book and post a few stats.

 

And I do think it needs to be put on the parent's shoulders. The more power, time, opportunity, confidence you take away from a group, the more then live down to the expectation. Parents in this country have forgotten that THEY are the ones responsible for their children's education. Sure, some parents will fail, but if schools are doing the basics, the kids will do okay til they can take over the difference themselves. But if parents weren't continually undermined, they would step up to the plate and make things work. Instead, they make dumb choices because they don't have to step up for their kids.

[Laura Corin]

Well, I'm guessing the Chinese score higher b/c most only have one child...hmmm wonder when that will become our solution?

 

 

But the reason that the Chinese score higher is:

 

 

• family commitment

• extremely long hours at school plus extra tutorial classes at weekends

 

 

Classes are enormous: 50 pupils in a class is not unusual, so this is not an individualised system. They just work hard.

 

Laura

[TraceyS/FL]

A lot of parents wash their hands - "It's the schools responsibility." There is a warped sense of what the "school" can provide, i am dealing with this in my divorce. My STBXH and family think that the SCHOOL will be better able to treat my DD's SPD. They don't seem to get "accommodate to move forward", but not in depth treatment.

 

They can't be the only people out there that feel it's the SCHOOLS JOB to do all this stuff. After all, they spend the most time with them right?

 

I do think a "year round" schedule of some sorta would be better, but not at the cost of undermining the family. Because, that is number one - the family. Without it, the kids will continue to fail.

 

Anyway, it's mucked.

[Ester Maria]

Unfortunately, nowadays the purpose of schools isn't really to educate children - well, that's at least not their primary purpose. More than that, it's to provide an organized daycare for kids too young to enter the work force, and most of the "education" going on there - past the basic reading and arithmetic - is really symbolic. It's more about keeping the kids busy and teaching them only the necessary than caring to actually provide them with an excellent education for its own sake.

 

The "bureaucratization" of education is only one of its segments - so much attention put into standardized tests, essays-by-scheme, multiple-choice tests (to scan them easier), emphasis on facts... and so little attention put into dialogue, internalizing knowledge, so little emphasis on understanding. And IF understanding is promoted, it's only linear-thinking understanding of one-dimensional "facts", not the understanding of wider context. A lot of emphasis is put on having an "opinion" - and, because of the stuff mentioned before, more often than not it's not an educated opinion. The whole system is a hoax.

 

Afternoons and holidays are time when children can do something about that hoax - a time when they can develop outside of the box, outside of that specific structured setting. Even if it's not formal studying - that's actually the most important thing about it, the LACK of formality and structure, and freedom that comes out of that. People often undermine the importance of freedom and of a healthy dose of "dolce far niente" - not only daily, but also weekly and yearly. How often have YOU personally felt "upgraded" after you took a break? Children, as they develop more speedily than us, need that even more. They need a childhood, they need time to be kids, to "digest" all that was going on during the school year and to simply do nothing a part of the year, nothing formally, but learn so much informally in other ways - playing, being more active in the community, traveling, etc.

 

I think that longer hours and no summer break would kill it. There's far, far more important things in life than formal education, and far more things outside to learn and internalize during those "unproductive" times. I think kids need the break, and I can see how fresh my daughters are after the summer, how changed by new experiences and different ways of learning; even if there are things to make up for or review, it's absolutely worth it.

[lgm]

Oh, blah. It's another program for the 'underpriviliged'... babysitting at the taxpayers' expense. Will Arne be serving 'free' dinners too, with takeout for the rest of the fam?

 

More time in seat will not help until all teachers are competent and allowed to use ability/achievement grouping to meet the needs of ALL students in the class. Parents like me in districts that have become more 'underpriviliged' and use the full inclusion model know that the first part of the year is not 'review'. It is 'reteach' for the nth time to those that never grasped the concept in the first place despite all the highly paid special ed teachers & reading and math specialists we have and summer school.

 

And when will anyone admit that students don't need all the days off and half days during the school year? In November, for example, there is not one week that students go to school for five days in a row. How does a child retain what was taught if he has no consistency? Half days - only 9 this year - are counted as whole days at school. There are 26 full days off in the school year. Most of them do not coincide with the holidays the actual working parents have off. I'd rather we skip some of the 'holidays' and have school before we decide to have school over the summer in our unairconditioned buildings with teachers who don't want to be there either, doing whole class 'review' for the n+1 time.

 

Arne needs to get out of the city and realize there is more to America than urban needs.

 

*******Hope all public school students are enjoying today's day off.*******

Edited September 28, 2009 by lgm

[Helen in OH]

In our little school district located in OH, we could not afford an extended schedule. The funding for an extended school day would increase an already tight school budget. Where is the money going to come from to pay for this type of program? California, Ohio, and Michigan have budget issues already.

 

Helen in OH

[Carrie12345]

Trying to fix the education problem with more of the same is like trying to fix the obesity problem with more Twinkies.

[Lilymax]

Unfortunately, nowadays the purpose of schools isn't really to educate children - well, that's at least not their primary purpose. More than that, it's to provide an organized daycare for kids too young to enter the work force, and most of the "education" going on there - past the basic reading and arithmetic - is really symbolic. It's more about keeping the kids busy and teaching them only the necessary than caring to actually provide them with an excellent education for its own sake.

 

The "bureaucratization" of education is only one of its segments - so much attention put into standardized tests, essays-by-scheme, multiple-choice tests (to scan them easier), emphasis on facts... and so little attention put into dialogue, internalizing knowledge, so little emphasis on understanding. And IF understanding is promoted, it's only linear-thinking understanding of one-dimensional "facts", not the understanding of wider context. A lot of emphasis is put on having an "opinion" - and, because of the stuff mentioned before, more often than not it's not an educated opinion. The whole system is a hoax.

 

Afternoons and holidays are time when children can do something about that hoax - a time when they can develop outside of the box, outside of that specific structured setting. Even if it's not formal studying - that's actually the most important thing about it, the LACK of formality and structure, and freedom that comes out of that. People often undermine the importance of freedom and of a healthy dose of "dolce far niente" - not only daily, but also weekly and yearly. How often have YOU personally felt "upgraded" after you took a break? Children, as they develop more speedily than us, need that even more. They need a childhood, they need time to be kids, to "digest" all that was going on during the school year and to simply do nothing a part of the year, nothing formally, but learn so much informally in other ways - playing, being more active in the community, traveling, etc.

 

I think that longer hours and no summer break would kill it. There's far, far more important things in life than formal education, and far more things outside to learn and internalize during those "unproductive" times. I think kids need the break, and I can see how fresh my daughters are after the summer, how changed by new experiences and different ways of learning; even if there are things to make up for or review, it's absolutely worth it.

 

:iagree: What she said. :)

[FO4UR]

I would support year-round schedules IF we *shortened* the school day.

 

Public schools are trying to do too much (acting as parent more than educator). Master the basics and send them home. If we want gov't run daycare, let's call it that! (and I do NOT)

 

Why not school from 8-12 or 12-4 and *FOCUS* on the 3R's. I know for a fact that schools don't spend the entire school day on academics. I had a frank discussion with a 2nd grade teacher and she estimated 2hours spent on actual academics. Shortening the actual school day, and making private tutoring available for those who struggle, will benefit all the kids.

 

I completely agree with the year-round scheduling. 6 weeks on and 1 week off, with a couple weeks at Christmas off and a short "summer" break would be my ideal.

 

I also think that kids should be able to go to ability-level classes instead of age-graded classes.

[phathui5]

I would support year-round schedules IF we *shortened* the school day.

 

I would too. Heck, I'd support kids going to school 48 weeks a year if they went from 8-12.

[Elizabeth Conley]

If these kids can barely read, don't know basic facts, etc., why aren't parents doing more to help their kids catch up at home? If more time with parents is the answer, then why isn't the time currently being spent at home enough to get kids caught up?

 

For interminable long years I sent my kids to school. First I did this because I knew no better, then I did it because I chose to convince my husband homeschooling was a viable option before I began teaching the kids at home.

 

In those years I exhaustively tutored them on my own time. There were a great many barriers to success.

 

1. Their homework - It was busy work, but boy did it keep us busy.

 

2. Exhaustion - By the time the homework was done, we were very tired.

 

3. Time - We wanted real lives, lives that were spent on more than grinding through academics. The kids did scouting and athletics. We offered them the well-balanced lives children deserve.

 

4. Their unteachers - countless times the kids would learn a critical skill in Arithmetic, only to wait for nearly half a school year for the teacher to address it. Then it would be addressed in a way that thoroughly muddled the kids' understanding. As a certified math teacher, I will NEVER FORGIVE the *expletive deleted* who forced my son to add and subtract on his fingers after he had already memorized the addition and subtraction facts. She destroyed his confidence with her put-downs, convincing him he wasn't "one of the smart kids" who could trust his memory. That was just a single incident. There were more. In every critical aspect of education, their so called "teachers" undid all my efforts to educate the kids.

 

5. The stress - The kids were subjected to unbelievable noise and chaos during the school day. Their peers fought about ridiculous things, engaged in boy-girl dramas that my kids found incomprehensible, and generally disrupted the educational setting at every turn. The bullying was pandemic, and blamed almost exclusively on the victims.

 

6. The Parent -Teacher relationship - The school staff suffered from a combination of ignorance and arrogance that never ceased to astound me. They emotionally abused students and practiced educational neglect, yet dared to treat parents with contempt. Getting them to do the right thing by a child was akin to pulling teeth - your own teeth - with nothing but a pair of pliers and a bottle of scotch.

 

So if two well educated Marine Corps veterans, one with a teaching degree herself, couldn't leverage a decent education for their kids out of the public schools, it's little surprise that countless less prepared parents are faring even worse. Just tutoring children after school and during the summer is not sufficient to compensate for a really bad public school.

[Snickerdoodle]

Trying to fix the education problem with more of the same is like trying to fix the obesity problem with more Twinkies.

 

The definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

Since they are willing to spend more taxpayer money to do this, I can only agree with this:

 

Unfortunately, nowadays the purpose of schools isn't really to educate children

 

 

 

 

so much attention put into standardized tests,

 

Does anyone ever ask to know what is on these tests?

[Elizabeth Conley]

Trying to fix the education problem with more of the same is like trying to fix the obesity problem with more Twinkies.

 

 

...and if that would work, I'd take mine deep-fried with a rich fudge sauce!

[Lilymax]

Elizabeth, our private school experience was very similar to your public school one. How dumb do I feel now, three years into homeschooling, to know that I PAID good money for THAT??? Judging from what my friends tell me about our local PS's (and what I see in most of their kids) I could've gotten the same experience for free.

 

Turns out that the private school we chose was really more of a dumping ground for lower-achievers and troublemakers from PS whose parents could afford to try private school. They advertised in a way that made it sound like they had all these high admission standards but the longer we stayed, the more we realized that for the owners, it was all just about the money.

 

Anyway, just wanted to chime in that we also found the whole schooled "lifestyle" to be exhausting and it absolutely killed my oldest's innate love of learning. He's finally gained some of that back, but it took years of deprogramming to get him reconnected with the idea that education is a good thing, not some awful experience to be endured. Thankfully, DS2 was pulled out after pre-K so he's not experienced the self-esteem battering his brother got at the hands of pseudo-teachers and bullying, troubled classmates.

 

I like the "obesity and twinkies" comment shared earlier about how throwing more of the same at a problem isn't going to fix it. That's exactly how I feel about longer school days, too.

[TravelingChris]

Our world is not equal. That is not the way it will be no matter what we try to do. If we mandate longer hours and no summer vacation, we lose a lot of athletic and artistic ability. Most athletics and artistic pursuits develp outside of class hours. They need the time to practice and they need the camps or programs in the summer to further develop their talents. Certain athletic programs are not limited to wealthier areas. Basketball camps, football camps, track camps, etc, etc, occur with regular frequency in poor areas.

 

Would drowning statistics go up? (Most kids learn to swim in summer programs). Would the amount of students going to college go down? (Many high school students need the summer to make money and also the afterschool hours).

 

THe problem isn't our lack of hours but our rather incompetent educational system. HOwever, like I said before, our world isn't equal and where you live, who you know, how much money you have, what your personality is like, how smart you are, how attractive you are, and a myriad of other factors influence your success rate. Government intervention, no matter how manipulative, can't change all the factors.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Wow. This thread brings up so many issues that consume my thoughts on a daily basis.

 

I really don't think kids "lose" the information they've learned over the summer. If they truly don't remember it after a BRIEF review, then they never had a mastery of it to begin with. I think that is a bigger issue. They never really master anything in school. They don't learn how to learn. There really doesn't seem to be any consistent plan in our nation's public schools as a whole as to what exactly our children need to know to perpetuate progress and advancement as a society.

 

Much of what people have said here goes directly to a main argument I've had with dh about the school system in which we live. People move into this community because the school system is rated very highly. These people make a conscious choice to live here because of the school system. They place a high value on education. They have high expectations of their children. They are invested in their children's success. I believe that it is this parental choice and involvement that drives the high rankings of this particular school district, rather than any so-called "excellence" in education that the district is always spouting off about.

 

A good friend of mine from college sends her children to a charter school in which the adult to student ratio is very, very small due to them actively engaging senior citizens in volunteering in the classroom. The kids get many hours of individualized attention from an adult, and 70% of these kids are from low-income, poor performing, inner city areas. Their scores on standardized tests have skyrocketed. They have consistently out performed any other shcool in the district. To me, this is an excellent example of not needing any more money or time thrown at the problem, but just a different approach.

 

I also agree that many parents just blindly trust the school system to be the "experts" in education, and don't feel they have the right to question the methods. It's the same way with doctors. People feel that they have been educated and trained and are infinitely more knowledgeable about the human body than the average joe. While this is somewhat true, doctors are also human beings and make mistakes. They don't know everything, and can't know everything, and people need to question their doctors and persue other opinions when their needs aren't being met. We need to do this with education, also. Many, many needs (aside from free daycare) are not being met by the public schools, but parents are made to feel that they can't ask questions and get that figurative second opinion. We are made to feel that we are "fanatical" or "weird" or "overly-religious" or "a helicopter parent" or a host of other names, if we dare to investigate what exactly our children are being taught at school.

 

I have been sharing a lot of information from the Well Trained Mind with my group of mom friends, and actually got 2 of them to read it. The discussions are wonderful, and you can see the light bulbs coming on in their brains. Even if they never have any intention of homeschooling, you can see that they are starting to realize that they should take a closer look at exactly what kind of education their children are receiving at school. I really don't want to offend any education people here, but I started out as an education major, and dropped out of the program when I realized how ridiculous a lot of it was. I couldn't see how some of this stuff I was hearing about in class could have any practical application in a classroom. They never really addressed how to teach any particular subject. It was all about different educational theories. And it was all about learning classroom management techniques, and learning how to use a ditto machine (you can see how old I am!). I was repulsed by it all back then. It seemed to me that public education was just one experiment with a new educational theory after another.

 

I'm seeing these theories in action with my kids in school who are subjected to Everyday Math and Invented Spelling. It breaks my heart for all these kids who are going to grow up not knowing how to do simple calculations or how to write a paper without every other word being spelled wrong. I know this will be the result, because I have seen it with my younger brother and sister, who were a decade behind me at shcool. They were subjected to whole language, and are both very bright individuals who have no idea how to compose a paragraph or spell. It's disheartening.

 

Instead of adding more time to the current mess, we need to radically change our conception of public education. We need to have higher expectations of all kids (even those with valid learning disabilities) and higher expectation of all parents. We need much smaller class sizes so that kids aren't just swept through the system without any true measure of their abilities. We need to teach kids to love learning and to view it as a way to improve their whole lives, not as something to endure until they can get out and be free from the prison atmosphere of school.

 

Taking away the joy of summer vacation is certainly not the answer to our problems. I agree that cutting it down to maybe six weeks is not terribly bad, but then I think they should add a longer winter break, too. Kids do need that unstructured time to explore, relax and be kids. So much of their time at school is spent in learning to behave in a large group. This is not natural. I do think they need some time away from that to recharge their kid batteries. Even in high school. And I think they need to rethink secondary education. I remember being frustrated in certain classes, that just when a topic of discussion started to get interesting, the bell would ring, and we'd have to file out to the next class. I think all that changing of venues all day is a huge waste of time. I think high school teachers should not necessarily be so specialized, and one teacher or group of teachers could handle several subjects so that the learning isn't so chopped up during the day. Of course, there would have to be certain exceptions for say, foreign language and art, etc., but you could do core subjects in the morning, then switch to electives in the afternoon.

 

Anyway, I could go on and on, but I'm probably preaching to the choir, here, I think.

[TraceyS/FL]

I agree with most of what you say. Totally.

 

In particular, i was coming back to post something along these lines.

 

I also agree that many parents just blindly trust the school system to be the "experts" in education, and don't feel they have the right to question the methods. It's the same way with doctors. People feel that they have been educated and trained and are infinitely more knowledgeable about the human body than the average joe. While this is somewhat true, doctors are also human beings and make mistakes. They don't know everything, and can't know everything, and people need to question their doctors and persue other opinions when their needs aren't being met. We need to do this with education, also. Many, many needs (aside from free daycare) are not being met by the public schools, but parents are made to feel that they can't ask questions and get that figurative second opinion. We are made to feel that we are "fanatical" or "weird" or "overly-religious" or "a helicopter parent" or a host of other names, if we dare to investigate what exactly our children are being taught at school.

 

This is so true. Blind trust, the government knows best, don't question it - just do it.

 

In a variety of ways it failed me as a child (i was the smart bored child,never pushed in the right way), it for sure failed my STBXH (late diagnosed dyslexia of some sort).

 

I want so much more for my kids. I see in my oldest a reflection of myself - she has the love for learning right now that i never had. All because she has materials adapted to her, and at the right level. Every time we have started to flounder, it was because the work was too easy.

 

Anyway, i'm up against this "the government knows best" type of mentality in my divorce, and it's very hard. I just want to sit them all down and once again try to see how homeschooling allows us to avoid the mistakes of the past. Except, they can't see that there was mistakes in the past..... so it's like talking to a brick wall.

 

OK, back to getting the day rolling here.

[Happy]

Much of what people have said here goes directly to a main argument I've had with dh about the school system in which we live. People move into this community because the school system is rated very highly. These people make a conscious choice to live here because of the school system. They place a high value on education. They have high expectations of their children. They are invested in their children's success. I believe that it is this parental choice and involvement that drives the high rankings of this particular school district, rather than any so-called "excellence" in education that the district is always spouting off about.

 

.

 

My friend in New York City, along with other families in the area, became disenchanted with their childrens' education several years ago. They hired tutors to help their children. Because of the concerted effort put forth by the parents, tests scores rose in the district. My friend was completely disgusted that the school got credit for the effort, money, and time spent by the parents.

 

****

 

I have friends in Europe whose children start school shortly after age 3. Is this the model the current administration wants to copy?

 

One thing I'd like to see is a focus on core academics as someone else mentioned. If I understand correctly, most European schools do not offer art or music and certainly not team sports as school activities. Think of the money and time which would be freed up by not having football programs in Texas. :D Hmmm....now that I think of it, my friend's children seem to participate in swimming and skiing as a part of school. Non-competative. I guess I'm going to have to do some emailing this morning to ask some questions.

[SheWillFly]

I am not supporting extended days. My oldest already spend 7.5 hours out of the house from the time she leaves our front door to the time she returns to it. I can't fathom how it can be acceptable for a child to put in more hours of work than an average adult does in a day. Learning is a child's work and a break to eat lunch and run around is not the kind of break all children need.

 

I would support year round schooling if it meant more frequent week long breaks throughout the year. We prefer to vacation in October, February and June. Now that we have children in school we have to do that on the weekends and it isn't what we want.

 

The biggest thing that irks me about all of this is the suggestion that our children's only worth is how full of knowledge their bag is. But what constitutes and education? I have a gifted child who is only interested in art. She can do the rest of the stuff without thinking but her passion even at 5 is art. That isn't something that can be put into a test score but our society would be intolerably different if we didn't have the impact of artists and other creative minds.

 

It doesn't matter to me how well our children compare to the rest of the world if my children are not interested in what the world places values.

 

Lastly I think a great deal of this is the result of buying into the belief that the breakdown of family has really happened. So now the assumption is that all families are broken and parents don't care or they want school to be childcare. I don't buy it in the least. I think parents are more often than not doing the best they can within the means and resources they have or they've fallen victim to the idea that you must have xyz or you are failing your children which leads to more 2 income families than were ever necessary in the first place.

[Garga]

I agree about the parents not being involved and not even really knowing they should be involved.

 

I've recently had 3 of my friends begin homeschooling.

 

One began because her son was getting picked on in school. Nothing to do with academics. Once she got him home, she realized he didn't know how to do any of the school work.

 

Another began because her daughter is a follower, and now that she was in 6th grade, the mom decided to bring her home so she wouldn't follow the wrong crowd (as she was leaning toward.) Nothing to do with academics. The mom was shocked to find out that her child tested at the 3rd grade reading level.

 

The third took her son out due to Aspergers issues. Again, not for academic reasons. And she also, was surprised to realize her son was 2 years behind in his reading.

 

These are really nice women who really do love their kids. They just didn't know that their kids were learning diddly-squat at school. They pulled the kids out for non-academic reasons and THEN discovered the poor things didn't know how to read.

 

And on the other hand, I have another friend who hates the idea of homeschooling and refuses to consider it. She complained to me because the private school her kids go to made her 4 kids read 3 books each over the summer vacation and write a book report on one of the books. She said over and over that it's not her job to educate her kids, so they shouldn't have to read over the summer. Then she went on to say that she doesn't like it that the kids have homework, because the school should be teaching them all day, and she shouldn't have to help her kids with homework at night.

 

I could understand if this woman were uneducated herself, but she's married to a lawyer and she's getting her nurse practitioner degree. She'll be 3/4 of the way to being a doctor in a couple of years (for gosh sake! She'll be able to diagnose and prescribe medicine in just 2 more years due to the college education and work experience she's been getting!)....so I totally am befuddled about her attitude toward her children's education.

 

And we live in a nice middle-class area. And these are reasonably intelligent women I'm talking about. They just don't seem to understand that they're supposed to be making sure their kids learn.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Garga

[TraceyS/FL]

I had a similar reaction when we started 2nd grade at home with my 8th grader. And, had the "and i PAID for that?" reaction. UGH. She could not write a sentence was the first thing that came to me.

 

I know in hindsight most of the problems, and wish i had stuck my nose in and insisted for a classroom change. That would have helped part of it, and with a recent CAPD diagnosis, i know that the classroom she had in 1st grade (that talking about STILL makes her cry.... at 13) had to have been total *&^^ for her. :(

 

With my kids issues and personalities, there isn't anything that would make a normal classroom pleasant for them. Noise overload in less than 60 seconds for starters....

[GoVanGogh]

so much attention put into standardized tests,

 

Does anyone ever ask to know what is on these tests?

In Texas, the state standardized tests are released to the public. (In the past, they released the tests every year. I believe they are going to start releasing every other year.) I tell public school parents this all the time and they never knew they could look up the tests their children took!

Anyhow.

One of the third grade math questions had the children marking which circle had 1/2 of it shaded in. I know fractions is generally introduced around 3rd grade, but the concept of "half" is something that most preschool children have mastered. ("Hey, you got the bigger half of the cookie!")

One of the fifth grade science questions asked which part of a bike was needed to coast down a hill. The answer? Are you ready? "A front wheel." :tongue_smilie: I'm sorry, but what in the world was a question like that doing on the test? If a child doesn't know that you need a front wheel to coast down a hill by kindergarten, I would question his critical thinking skills. But 5th grade?!

 

It never surprises me to hear people say they thought their kids were doing good in school because they received good grades, but they realized their children were actually well below grade level in math and/or reading. If our state standardized tests are any indication of their educational standards - No thank you.

Children need less - much less! - of it, not more.

[TraceyS/FL]

Don't get me started on parents and involvement. Unfortunately, it isn't only the problem of some parents not being involved. It is the fact that many teachers, schools, etc don't really like an involved parent. Some schools treat parents as merely fund raisers. If a parent shows interest beyond that, they are often treated like a gnat. A teacher once told me she is glad they lock the doors to the school during the day, otherwise "parents would be walking through the halls". Yeah, that is why they should lock the doors...to keep those pesky parents away. :glare:

 

:glare: it's a shame that "they" haven't seen that those pesky parents could really HELP them reach their numbers if they were allowed to be involved.

[Carrie12345]

I am not supporting extended days. My oldest already spend 7.5 hours out of the house from the time she leaves our front door to the time she returns to it. I can't fathom how it can be acceptable for a child to put in more hours of work than an average adult does in a day. Learning is a child's work and a break to eat lunch and run around is not the kind of break all children need.

 

 

 

My ds went to school for 5 years. The last two or three looked like this:

 

Sleep- 9pm to 6:30am

Get ready for school- 6:30am to 7:50

Gone from 8:00-4:30

Homework- 4:30 to 5:30 (on a good night)

 

That left approximately 3.5 hours a day for extracurricular activities, dinner, family time, and whatever private unwinding could be squeezed in. Any extracurricular activities ate up 2 hours because of the driving distance. And this kid doesn't do well if he can't get at least a little "down time" in his room.

 

On top of that, he does have every other weekend with his father (not that I'm blaming school for that ;).) He leaves every other Saturday morning and comes back Sunday night, usually staying to Monday on long weekends.

 

I rarely saw my kid. By the time I pulled him out, our bond was severely damaged. I had little authority, and I really didn't know my kid very well. Even summers were hard because there was such a long adjustment period.

 

Just the thought of having him in school for longer hours and more days makes me want to cry.

[Heather in Neverland]

The average public school will have a child about 35 hours a week. If that is not enough time then they need to be more efficient with their time. The last thing I would do is give them more of my precious family time to waste.

[cdrumm4448]

One of the third grade math questions had the children marking which circle had 1/2 of it shaded in. I know fractions is generally introduced around 3rd grade, but the concept of "half" is something that most preschool children have mastered. ("Hey, you got the bigger half of the cookie!")

One of the fifth grade science questions asked which part of a bike was needed to coast down a hill. The answer? Are you ready? "A front wheel." :tongue_smilie: I'm sorry, but what in the world was a question like that doing on the test? If a child doesn't know that you need a front wheel to coast down a hill by kindergarten, I would question his critical thinking skills. But 5th grade?!

 

I recently had my ds(7) take the Iowa Basic Skills Test, second grade, to determine (somewhat) what he knows. On the Social Studies part of the test there was one question I couldn't answer, and neither could my husband. Imagine three drawings of three government buildings. The question was, "Where are laws made?" We didn't even know what one of the buildings was, and I have a Master's degree and my husband is very self-educated (but never finished college.) Does that seem like a second-grade question to you? Or does it really point out the mediocre education we received?

[Renee in NC]

But the reason that the Chinese score higher is:

 

• family commitment
  
• extremely long hours at school plus extra tutorial classes at weekends
  

 

Classes are enormous: 50 pupils in a class is not unusual, so this is not an individualised system. They just work hard.

 

Laura

 

I read the book "Outliers" recently and he devoted a whole section to the idea of the Chinese working harder and longer. His opinion was that it is ingrained into the culture from generations of rice farming (which is much more labor intense than other agriculture.)

 

He also discusses KIPP Schools and what they have been able to accomplish with student populations that are mostly poor. There are studies that have shown that low SES kids learn just as much during the school year, but lose ground in the summer. Middle and high SES kids *don't* lose ground, so end up ahead overall at the end of elementary school.

[Tammyla]

:iagree: Same here, and they even created a drive-through drop-off / pick-up lane to avoid before and after school parents checking in or up with teachers.:confused:

 

Don't get me started on parents and involvement. Unfortunately, it isn't only the problem of some parents not being involved. It is the fact that many teachers, schools, etc don't really like an involved parent. Some schools treat parents as merely fund raisers. If a parent shows interest beyond that, they are often treated like a gnat. A teacher once told me she is glad they lock the doors to the school during the day, otherwise "parents would be walking through the halls". Yeah, that is why they should lock the doors...to keep those pesky parents away. :glare:

[hornblower]

Am I too cynical to think the push for going for longer hours/schools is actually not for the education of our children but a hidden agenda to get more people in the workforce so that the government would have more money?? If their kids are in school all day, what's keeping the mom AND dad from working longer hours? I think there are money counters in DC figuring the tax intake shrinks during the summer breaks when many stay home with their children...

 

I believe that the push for longer school days, year round school, all day kindergarten etc are ALL about the economy. I don't know if the tax issues play out but definitely it plays out on the GDP side of the equation. If you work, you contribute to society. If you don't work, you don't. That's the way GDP is calculated. If you & your neighbour switch kids & pay each other 100/day to look after each other's kids (so that in effect neither one is earning any money), you become productive contributors to the economy & the GDP goes up. Just like that.

 

And there is also a big push from families themselves. Realistically, if school is from 8:40 to 3:00 as it is here, it's impossible to drop off & pick up your kids and still have a f/t job.

 

And lastly, I think there's a lot of peer attachment happening & for many people the less time they spend with their kids, the less they know them, and eventually the less they want to know them. Spending time together becomes a real chore.

[Cammie]

The government is finding a way to limit the influence the child's own parents have on him/her....

 

 

I can't say for sure, but I am pretty certain that this was NOT the driving rationale behind this particular policy. Might be the consequence but I don't think it was the reason.

[jujsky]

But the reason that the Chinese score higher is:

 

 

• family commitment

• extremely long hours at school plus extra tutorial classes at weekends

 

 

Classes are enormous: 50 pupils in a class is not unusual, so this is not an individualised system. They just work hard.

 

Laura

 

:iagree:They are also higher because most foreign countries do not test every student as we do here. Imagine how much higher our country's test scores would be if we didn't test all of the special needs children? Most other countries weed those kids out. They never take the tests.

 

I'm not against a longer year (maybe 4-6 weeks summer vacation instead of 8-12 weeks) but I think lengthening the school day is a big mistake. A mom I know was telling me that in her school district, they recently cut out recess for everyone except the kindergarten kids (who are only there 2 1/2 hours) to improve test scores. When are kids going to have a chance to be kids? Our government and studies constantly compare us to places like China, but the bigger question is, do we WANT to be like China? Look at the suicide rates among teens in some of these countries. There are some kids over there who buckle under all the pressure. I'd rather have a happy, self-confident, well-adjusted child than a child who kills him/herself because they can't keep up and can't take the mounting pressure of school.

 

I think the financial ramifications also need to be looked at (sorry if it's been discussed -- I haven't made it through the entire thread yet). Yes, parents will probably work more hours, but will other businesses suffer with longer school hours/school during the summer? What about the tourism industry? Won't less people be going on vacation? What about activities that cater to children? DD's dance school and DS's gymnastics comes to mind. If schools aren't getting out until 5:00, kiss any classes that are currently held 3:00-5:00 good-bye. Businesses such as those will be losing out on a lot of revenue, and many will probably have to close. Add to that the fact that kids will be so tired after they get out of school (will they still have homework? I'm guessing that's likely) that their outside activities will be severely limited.

 

Let's look at the increased cost of keeping schools open longer/later. The article I read said that for a pilot program they tried, it increased the per-student cost $1,300/year. Obviously if we're expecting teachers to work longer hours, we need to pay them more than the pitiful amount they're making now. Schools will also have increased expenses for heat and electricity. All of that means higher taxes for everyone. People will be working longer hours, but not seeing any additional take-home pay because it will all be eaten up by increased taxes.

 

I understand why the government wants to do this. I understand that there are families out there who either can't or don't know how to give their kids the chance to succeed. Target those families. Establish government programs to help the kids who actually need it. Making this some sort of mass-mandate for everyone is not going to help the kids who are currently doing well. Instead, it's going to hurt those kids and their families. If the government wants to throw money at the problem, hire more teachers. Have classrooms with a cap of 12-15 instead of 30. Look how well more individualized attention works in homeschooling. If class size was reduced, some of that would be possible in a regular classroom. Institute tracking. So many schools are doing away with it because they view it as unfair. If there is a small class of under-priveledged kids who are getting intense, small-group instruction, they will probably catch up to some of the other students and be able to move up. If it's not used as a holding pattern, but instead as a stepping stone, tracking works. The government needs to ask teachers and parents -- not administrators and politicians -- what would fix schools. They're the ones who actually know, and have the best interest of the kids at heart.

 

Stepping off my soap box now ;)

[patchfire]

A teacher friend of mine and I discussed this on facebook. She is definitely against this idea of longer hours and more days. One thing she and I did agree on, however, is that you could see an argument for either/or. Shorter hours and more days (especially for elementary age kids - more time to play and let basic concepts "gel" in their heads), or longer hours and fewer days (which we agreed might be better for high school age students - they could, in theory, go deeper in various subjects - isn't that the idea behind block scheduling, anyway?). The real problem, though, is ultimately that public schools are not about education. They are about providing free childcare. My understanding is that in my county, you're no longer even allowed to bring your children home for lunch and then take them back for afternoon classes, no matter how willing to do so you might be. Little things like that - my parents remember eating lunch at home the majority of their elementary school years.

 

Once schools were established as free childcare, though, it became an even worse cycle. People who should not be having children and who don't enjoy their children all that much, have children, I feel, knowing that they will be cared for out of sight most of the time. It's a proletarian form of the upstairs nursery and nanny, so that parents only saw well-groomed children once a day, IMO.

[sparrow]

The government is finding a way to limit the influence the child's own parents have on him/her....keep them in the system as long as possible.

 

 

 

I can't say for sure, but I am pretty certain that this was NOT the driving rationale behind this particular policy. Might be the consequence but I don't think it was the reason.

 

Many parts of the US educational system are based on the Prussian model and that is the goal.

 

Sums things up nicely:

[SonshineLearner]

How bout a University Model School setup? I can imagine Monday, Wednesdays and half Fridays for some, and Tuesdays, Thursdays and half Fridays... (or instead of Half Fridays.... Fridays for some... Saturdays for others.) If we really wanna be like other countries... we could do Saturdays. At least children tutored privately do some Saturdays... (Our Japanese neighbors loaded up every Saturday, so they could stay up with their peers back home *Japan)

 

Of course, on alternate days... they are with parents or others... they could be doing homework, computer work, nature study... whatever is decided:-)

Carrie:-)