Mom not planning on teaching highschool level math, science, etc--how to respond?

[Ottakee]

I was talking to a friend at church today who is homeschooling her daughthers--should be 9th grade and 5th grade.

 

Today we were talking about starting school for the year and what we were doing. She mentioned that the older dd was behind a year in math but that was fine as this was all she was going to teach. She said she has no plans to teach algebra, geometry or any higher math. They also do no formal science and have no plans for higher level science. No languages, etc. either.

 

This girl has no learning disabilities, etc. so that is not an issue. She wants to grow up to be a vet tech and when I asked the mom about the math and science needed for that she just laughed and said she could learn it herself when she was older if she really wanted.

 

How do you respond? We are in Michigan with very easy homeschool laws but we are supposed to teach subjects comparable to the public schools.

 

Now, my 12dd is doing 3rd-5th grade work and should be a 7th grader but she does have some real, diagnosed LDs and lower IQ. I do though make sure that we teach science, math, etc. as much as she can learn.

 

This is not a case of a child struggle with learning, just parents who don't place a high value on education, esp. for girls and just aren't teaching her. I just hate to see in 4 years this girl try to get into a college program and not be accepted because she is missing so much.

[Pamela H in Texas]

It's sad, but there really is no way to respond. I would be tempted to try to find cheap materials the girl may be able to use on her own or things you can let her borrow. If she really has certain goals, she'll make it happen. Maybe she could check out a copy of Real Lives by Grace Llewellyn also so she can see how the ball really is in her hands? Maybe you could start a list of websites she can self-teach from?

 

I know very few conscientious homeschoolers at the high school level. It is pretty common to drop the ball. The best I think we can do is encourage the children to pick it up.

[sbaloue]

I hope she was just joking. :001_huh:

 

A speaker at our state conference told a story about a family she knows who did the same thing and lived to regret it. She pointed out that if a child has no plans to continue their education beyond homeschooling, the parent has the responsible to provide their child with the best education they can (which they should anyway), because this will be the ONLY formal education they will get.

 

How is the daughter supposed to handle these classes on her own 5 years down the road? I would ask her why would she want to put her daughter in such a disadvantaged position? She could be ready to apply for jobs/vet assistant training at 16-17 with a proper education.

 

Shocking and sad.

[Mommyof4ks]

Wow, that is sad. I don't know if there is really a way to respond to that. What if the child changes her mind and wants to be a doctor? I changed my major 5 times before entering college and twice before graduation. Wow is all I can say.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I was talking to a friend at church today who is homeschooling her daughthers--should be 9th grade and 5th grade.

 

Today we were talking about starting school for the year and what we were doing. She mentioned that the older dd was behind a year in math but that was fine as this was all she was going to teach. She said she has no plans to teach algebra, geometry or any higher math. They also do no formal science and have no plans for higher level science. No languages, etc. either.

 

This girl has no learning disabilities, etc. so that is not an issue. She wants to grow up to be a vet tech and when I asked the mom about the math and science needed for that she just laughed and said she could learn it herself when she was older if she really wanted.

 

How do you respond? We are in Michigan with very easy homeschool laws but we are supposed to teach subjects comparable to the public schools.

 

Now, my 12dd is doing 3rd-5th grade work and should be a 7th grader but she does have some real, diagnosed LDs and lower IQ. I do though make sure that we teach science, math, etc. as much as she can learn.

 

This is not a case of a child struggle with learning, just parents who don't place a high value on education, esp. for girls and just aren't teaching her. I just hate to see in 4 years this girl try to get into a college program and not be accepted because she is missing so much.

 

Since you mentioned that this was at church . . .

 

Math and science allow us to more fully appreciate the world that God has placed us in. The more we know about creation, the more is revealed about the Creator.

 

Math and science are essential for Christians if we are going to continue to have a voice in ethical discussions regarding medicine and science. (I got this emphasis from a podcast by Linda Janikowsky - Math God's Invention Man's Discovery).

 

If a family believes strongly that the father is the breadwinner and head of the household, but also hopes that their daughters will grow up equiped to teach their grandchildren, then it is important to give those future teachers the tools to teach grandsons too. It may also insulate the daughter's family against government intervention if laws governing homeschooling become more restrictive.

 

If a child is capable of doing upper level work and we as parents do not foster the development of that God given ability, then we are exasperating our child and (IMHO) also failing to live up to our responsibilities as parents.

 

It is one thing to say that if the choice is between our child being an astrophysicist with no faith and a God-fearing plumber that we'd pick plumbing. But I think that it is something else entirely to say that we will abandon the study of science to those with no faith or to imply that our faith will not stand up to encounters with science or unbelievers. Give our kids the tools they need. Don't just abandon whole fields of research.

 

On the other hand, lazy parents are not restricted to non-Christians or to non-homeschoolers. There are families who will use all sorts of excuses to explain why they aren't doing hard things.

[Renee in NC]

Wow, that is sad. I don't know if there is really a way to respond to that. What if the child changes her mind and wants to be a doctor? I changed my major 5 times before entering college and twice before graduation. Wow is all I can say.

 

I agree that this is a sad state of affairs, but not having math and science in high school is not a death knell. I dropped out of high school after the 10th grade and I had no problems with Biology, Chemistry, Statistics, Anatomy, or Botany in college.

 

If she decides that she wants to be a doctor, then she will make it happen.

[DarlaS]

I was talking to a friend at church today who is homeschooling her daughthers--should be 9th grade and 5th grade.

 

Today we were talking about starting school for the year and what we were doing. She mentioned that the older dd was behind a year in math but that was fine as this was all she was going to teach. She said she has no plans to teach algebra, geometry or any higher math. They also do no formal science and have no plans for higher level science. No languages, etc. either.

 

 

Could she have meant that she was going to have someone else teach it by any chance? Community college? Co-op classes?

[Lucy in Australia]

I assume this lady is a Christian since you mentioned talking to her at church. One of my friends once said to me that they were only going to educate their children to the point where they had enough education to be pastors or missionaries. :glare: I had a lot to say to that :rant: but the only comment that made a difference to her was when I said that no parent knows absolutely what God's plan is for their child. Therefore we have an obligation to give them the highest possible education in order to equip them for whatever tasks they might have in life. Maybe if your friend considers things from that point of view she might change her mind...

[Orthodox6]

Very scary to read. Truly.

 

Is this a family that claims religious bases for denying girls an education ?

 

Do the parents not realize that there are avenues for a high school student to learn these subjects, even if the parents are unable to teach them ?

 

What you describe is "non-schooling", and surely can't satisfy the state laws. I just looked up Michigan at the HSLDA website. Under the "option 1", which sounds like what the family is using, ". . . The burden is on the state to prove that the parents are not teaching their children."

 

Somebody would have to "turn in" the family, I guess, with allegations that the requirements are not being met. Namely,

 

" „The child is being educated at the child‟s home by his or her parent or legal guardian in an organized educational program in the subject areas of reading, spelling, mathematics, science, history, civics, literature, writing, and English grammar.‟†"

 

It would take a very brave friend or neighbor to swallow hard and turn in a family for "educational neglect". I have no idea what I would do, since this mother already appears not to value your wise counsel.

[Melissa in Australia]

I assume this lady is a Christian since you mentioned talking to her at church. One of my friends once said to me that they were only going to educate their children to the point where they had enough education to be pastors or missionaries. :glare: I had a lot to say to that :rant: but the only comment that made a difference to her was when I said that no parent knows absolutely what God's plan is for their child. Therefore we have an obligation to give them the highest possible education in order to equip them for whatever tasks they might have in life. Maybe if your friend considers things from that point of view she might change her mind...

 

this is a very common thing with homeschoolers around my area.:001_huh:

I have said this exact thing as Lucy to people before. It does work with some people. Not all though

[IsabelC]

I don't agree that every child should be forced to do advanced math and science. Yes, I think everyone should ideally learn enough to be a competent citizen and run their own household (assuming they are not too disabled to expect to do this), but seriously, who uses college preparation level math in real life? If one of my children wants to learn a trade that does not require calculus (and most don't) then I'm happy for them to not study it. As long as they know enough to do things like balance their budget, pay their taxes and other things that would be covered in an applied math course, they are functionally numerate.

 

However, having said that, a child in grade nine (or at grade nine age) would normally be having discussions with her parents about what she wants to do post homeschool, and working with their help to prepare for it. If this young woman has expressed an interested in veterinary science, why on earth are the parents not guiding her to study what she'd need to do this? I find it sad that some young people may not be allowed the chance to learn things purely because their parents see them in a housewife role in the future. If she does the science and math and eventually qualifies as a vet tech, she can still quit work later on if she wants to concentrate on marriage and children. But if she isn't qualified for any job that interests her and things turn out differently than expected, then she will be stuck with very few choices, and will not necessarily have another chance to do the learning.

 

As for how to respond, that's difficult. How much you can usefully say would depend on how well you know the family. If she is limiting the children's educational opportunities due to religious beliefs, would it be possible to ask the relevant spiritual adviser within your denomination to approach her?

Edited September 7, 2009 by Hotdrink

[dangermom]

That's a very worrying situation.

 

If the girl wants to be a vet tech, then she should be working now to get there. A lot of people want to work in veterinary science, and it's important to get involved young and be willing to work hard. At the very least she needs to be trying to find a spot doing grunt work at a vet's office or a wildlife preserve or something. Starting several years from now will not work. She needs to be studying now.

 

(Ask me how I know; my younger SIL always talked about working in vet science, but never did anything to get started. Now she's about 21 and still nowhere.)

[QueenCat]

Sad, and fuel for those who don't homeschool to think that homeschool students aren't getting an education.

[Lilymax]

Well, I have to admit: at 41 I remember little of what I learned in math and science during high school. I only completed the lowest levels in algebra, and remember taking biology. But I didn't (don't!) have a lot of aptitude in those subjects and would've never chosen a career that required them.

 

I wouldn't feel like I was doing my job as a HS mom if I didn't keep my kids progressing through the core subjects through graduation. With math curricula like Teaching Textbooks, the parent does very little of the teaching anyway, and it goes all the way up to pre-Calculus. It's expensive, but IMO, worth it--we've been using it for two years now and my DS loves it.

 

I mean, isn't it our job to make sure the kids are getting the basic classes through 12th grade (or at least until they meet whatever the state's laws are regarding graduation credit hours in each subject)?

 

I plan to enroll my kids in co-op classes for science and possibly a foreign language when they're older, because my limitations shouldn't become theirs, KWIM?

[Tap]

Is she doing anything beyond 8-9th grade? Is she planning to claim she has a high school diploma? Is she going to learn writing, history, home ec and other skills? Will she allow the dd to go to community college at 14, taking a placement test and starting at the bottom? How about at 16? 18?

 

I do feel she is doing her a disservice if she grants her a high school diploma. To give her the stamp of approval to just walk away from the most basic upper math and science isn't horrid, but also isn't going to help her any either. To me it would be like someone having a GED, not the most educated but has the most rudimentary basics. If the girl can get into college, even into basic classes she can work her way up.

 

 

I would try to encourage the girl to use some programs like Teaching Textbooks, that are self teaching and at least take Algebra 1, even if it takes her longer to do it than one year. The basics in Algebra 1 are used in life quite often. Even if someone doesn't remember how to use the more complex equations, she will need to know how to do basic algebra for any science career.

 

Same for biology. She will need to know the basics of cells and how they divide/multiply. Those most basic learning blocks won't be taught in college level, and she will be required to learn a lot more than her peers if she waits until then to learn. Not impossible, just harder.

[redheadeddaughter]

with how this particular mother is approaching her "school." I do, however, fully respect her ability to make those decisions entirely on her own as a the parent. It is scary (!) to me that some are suggesting the government should intervene here and "do something" or that a relative or friend should turn this mother in to the state! All because she doesn't want to teach higher level maths and/or science! She may be a perfectly capable teacher in every other regard and a loving mother to boot (which is arguably more important than having higher level math/science skills). Think about it: most government-run schools fail to successfully teach higher level math and science anyway. This girl has likely already received a better education than her local school could give her and even if that were not the case, I believe it is within the rights of this mother to direct her daughters education. If that involves mission trips or traveling or foreign language or sewing or cooking or whatever she believes her daughter will find useful. I'm not sure college degrees are all that helpful these days when it comes to obtaining gainful employment AND they are expensive... the sheer numbers of degree holders are making it beyond competitive. Having actual skill is more valuable and less common. There is a whole movement of families who are leaning towards an agricultural approach to their lives... which would require a different set of skills. I'm just saying... not everyone needs these classes and I doubt anyone but the mother of the child knows truly which direction her heart is pointing her now. And that may very well change in the future. If she is really driven, and there has been any good learning going on up to this point, she can likely direct her own education to a certain degree, under the oversight of her mom.

 

I have a doctorate and fully understand there ARE many benefits to higher learning. If I can't teach chemistry and physics and calculus you can bet I will mortgage my home to outsource that to a good tutor. (my math skills are questionable, as is my grammar) But. It is not my place to tell another parent how to educate their own children. It saddens me greatly to see people so quick to judge. Not that I haven't been guilty of that myself in years past... I'm just more aware now that I'm homeschooling myself and subject to intense scrutiny every time I discuss my own "school." Unless I was this woman's very very best friend or her sister/mom, I would refrain from any kind of comment or criticism and give her the benefit of the doubt. If I was her mom... I'd read her the riot act. And then offer to teach it myself. :)

[SonshineLearner]

You were at church? I would talk to them about the fact that the law says you have to teach comparable. This, in my opinion, would be something to do the going to them, offering suggestions, and if needed....talk to the pastor about it. It's wrong, biblically, not to submit when it doesn't go against biblical teachings. This is just wrong. It gives hs a bad name. Maybe they just need some gentle nudging.

Carrie

[tex-mex]

Wow... sure hope your friend has a whacky sense of humor? If not, then I would recommend the DD uses this math curriculum when the time is right:

 

http://www.teachingtextbooks.com/

 

Tons of co-ops do Apologia Biology or Chemistry too. They meet once a week to do the lab. Reading and OYO are independent. That little one needs to be interning with a local vet to see if this is what she really wants to do. She needs a good mentor to encourage her to reach for the stars.

Edited September 7, 2009 by tex-mex

[iluvmy4blessings]

That seems odd. Perhaps they are very liberal unschoolers? I have never met a homeschooler like that . Most of them are curriculum junkies! It sure is odd and even though I don't agree with it, it's their family and their business. I sure wouldn't want anyone poking around in my business as a homeschooler, so that is why I would not pursue it. To be honest this is exactly the sort of person that makes all homeschoolers look bad. However, the more publicized those individuals are the worse off the rest of us are. No one recalls the homeschoolers whose children got into Harvard, but everyone remembers the ones who did nothing at all.

[Night Elf]

This is the wrong board to disagree with the idea in this thread, but I'll do it anyway. It's not nice to talk down about other people's choices, even when they are very different from your own. It's gossip and judgement, plain and simple.

 

I'm still quite surprised at the responses, though. The OP didn't give a lot of information. What was the entire conversation? Is the OP intimate with the daily life of this family, the relationship between parents and kids? What is the lifestyle and educational philosophy in the woman's house? Is the dd happy with the lifestyle? Is she being held back by a parent who won't let her child learn anything? Is the child serious about wanting to be a vet tech? Has she looked into alternatives to regular high school and found another path that looks appealing? Is the parent being a facilitator instead of making the decisions for this girl? Is this woman a bad Christian for not forcing her children to follow a traditional educational path?

 

All this talk about how someone knew someone else who didn't turn out well because of such a lack of education is irrelevant. What were the circumstances in that specific family? Were there other problems in the family besides a lack of high school education? What about families/kids who choose an alternative path to traditional high school and do fine? What about the kids who do get the high school diploma because they answered questions on tests correctly? What about the people who get into college and bomb out? What about the college graduates who don't make a lot of money like they were promised when they entered college, or who can't find jobs even though they have years of professional education? Isn't there so much a person can go back and blame for not being where they want to be as adults?

 

My dd17 has been making her own school decisions with my support since 9th grade. It was one of the big reasons she wanted to live with me and not her dad and stepmom who were putting way too much pressure on her about school. She did some of the high school thing because she didn't want them to be disappointed. Then she really got into owning her education. It's been a pleasure and privilege to support her so far. I think she's gotten a lot more out of her teenage years than if she had lived with her dad and his rules. I'm quite proud of my dd. And yes, I will be graduating her without all those upper level courses, because she has fulfilled what we decided were the necessary requirements to graduate. On her own, she has decided to take the SAT subject tests to boost her transcript. But really, just like the SAT, one only has to crash study using a book to make a passing grade. I honestly don't see that as true education, but she wants to see how well she can do after only having 2 years of high school. Her practice tests score higher than the requirements for Georgia State University. We're sure she'll have no problems with the tests. She isn't even sure yet if she wants to go to college. It's too big of a decision for her to make yet and she wants and needs more time to think it all through. Seems quite smart to me!

[keptwoman]

This girl has likely already received a better education than her local school could give her and even if that were not the case, I believe it is within the rights of this mother to direct her daughters education. If that involves mission trips or traveling or foreign language or sewing or cooking or whatever she believes her daughter will find useful.

I agree with you in principle, but in practice if she is not equipping her child for what the child wants to do in life, then there is a problem. What about the right of the child to an education that allows them as an adult to the path they choose? This is what is being degraded here.

I have been pondering this a lot recently after a discussion with another mother which ran along remarkably similar lines. The mother said her DD didn't need higher level maths and science (and by higher level I mean High School!) because she wanted to be XYZ. A week later I overheard the DD saying that she wanted to be in the airforce, well Maths and Physics are a prerequisite I would have thought. So the mother's "choices" are derailing the daughters right to deciding on a career. I don't see that as good parenting or good homeschooling.

 

However, having said that, a child in grade nine (or at grade nine age) would normally be having discussions with her parents about what she wants to do post homeschool, and working with their help to prepare for it. If this young woman has expressed an interested in veterinary science, why on earth are the parents not guiding her to study what she'd need to do this? I find it sad that some young people may not be allowed the chance to learn things purely because their parents see them in a housewife role in the future. If she does the science and math and eventually qualifies as a vet tech, she can still quit work later on if she wants to concentrate on marriage and children. But if she isn't qualified for any job that interests her and things turn out differently than expected, then she will be stuck with very few choices, and will not necessarily have another chance to do the learning.

Completely agree.

 

OP I don't know how to respond. I'm so completely flummoxed on this issue myself. I guess I don't want to put my opinion "out there" because it would likely mean the end of our family's inclusion in a certain group. But I do feel very bothered by it.

Edited September 7, 2009 by keptwoman

[Catherine]

all homeschooling parents.

 

But I can't say I agree with her choices. I think it's wrong to fail to educate girls who are capable of more. It will invite tighter legal regulation of homeschooling, I fear. I suppose having the freedoms we cherish here in the US gives parents the freedom to choose to hamstring their daughters. It confirms those unpleasant stereotypes of religious conservatives as wanting to keep their daughters barefoot and pregnant. I don't agree with those stereotypes, not at all, but stuff like this certainly makes homeschoolers look bad. Ugh. I am aware of a case that went to court in Virginia of a homeschooled teen girl whose parents were forced by a judge to allow her to go to high school because she wanted to. She was 16. Her parents did not want her to learn advanced subjects or get any higher education. HSDLA to the rescue. They defended the parents' right to choose their daughter's education and she was taken out of school again. This court record was sealed, however and I found nothing about it on the internet. I learned of it in a textbook for graduate school education students, one that had a petty dim view of homeschooling. The end of the story is interesting though. Although I found nothing about the court case on the internet, I found a bunch of links for a young woman with the same name, in Virginia, who is a successful real estate agent and only has 2 children, and, they are not homeschooled.

 

Anyway, yeah, parents are free to choose how their children are educated but I sure don't agree with the choices some parents make.

[Ottakee]

I will fill in more later today. This is just a difficult situation all around.

[Pamela H in Texas]

One of my friends once said to me that they were only going to educate their children to the point where they had enough education to be pastors or missionaries.

 

Hmmmm, the requirements I saw (many moons ago) to do these things within mainstream Christianity were pretty involved. Many missionary groups require a college education and pastors often go to seminary which is not easy even for a bright man with a few years under his belt (I know someone currently).

 

I don't know if that is across the board, but in our religion, to be a missionary requires going to a "school" and has amazing teaching. But on top of that, then they have to learn the language of the country they are assigned to go aid in the work in.

 

All these things are helped by having a good back ground. But also, having good study skills, having studied hard things before is helpful, etc.

 

I also agree that the scriptures do point to us following the law which is sounds like she may not be doing.

 

But again, the parent has the right to make whatever choice she wants. I don't know ANYONE who'd call CPS based on educational neglect.

 

So unless y'all are friends and can spend some time chatting and it comes up and you can gently change her mind? What else is there to do.

 

I still say (and am surprised others didn't say) to support the child. "If you ever need any help finding some resources to meet your goals...." or "I have a list of websites with various high school maths and sciences if your mom wouldn't mind me emailing them to you. You could self-study so you'll be ready for the vet-tech program."

[elegantlion]

I was talking to a friend at church today who is homeschooling her daughthers--should be 9th grade and 5th grade.

 

Today we were talking about starting school for the year and what we were doing. She mentioned that the older dd was behind a year in math but that was fine as this was all she was going to teach. She said she has no plans to teach algebra, geometry or any higher math. They also do no formal science and have no plans for higher level science. No languages, etc. either.

 

This girl has no learning disabilities, etc. so that is not an issue. She wants to grow up to be a vet tech and when I asked the mom about the math and science needed for that she just laughed and said she could learn it herself when she was older if she really wanted.

 

How do you respond? We are in Michigan with very easy homeschool laws but we are supposed to teach subjects comparable to the public schools.

 

Now, my 12dd is doing 3rd-5th grade work and should be a 7th grader but she does have some real, diagnosed LDs and lower IQ. I do though make sure that we teach science, math, etc. as much as she can learn.

 

This is not a case of a child struggle with learning, just parents who don't place a high value on education, esp. for girls and just aren't teaching her. I just hate to see in 4 years this girl try to get into a college program and not be accepted because she is missing so much.

 

While as a parent I believe she has the right to teach what she believes, she is doing this girl a disservice.

 

Here's a link to a vet tech program where we used to live. It's one of the only two in the state. http://mcckc.edu/vettech/?P=Admit It's a highly competitive, small admissions program and you have to have minimum biology to apply, zoology preferred. It's a two year program, not a typical four year degree.

[Melinda in VT]

Threads like these always remind me of a girl I knew when I was in high school who got legal emancipation so she could go to high school instead of continuing to be homeschooled.

[Moni]

How do you respond?

 

Is she asking for ideas for self-learning math? Saxon is, no dvd needed. http://www.KhanAcademy.com

Teaching Textbooks.

 

What is her question?

Is she asking one? ;)

 

:seeya:

[Stacy in NJ]

her decision. It may offend her, but in your situation, I'd let her know that I though she was neglecting her responsibilites. Kindly worded, of course.

[MgoBlue]

This sounds like my husband's cousin that lives in W Michigan. I heard that they "took a break" from math because the kids didn't like doing it. Sorry-my kid gets tired of math but she still has to do it. Why homeschool if it's too much "work" for the parent? I'm only homeschooling because I feel I can do a better job than the schools. Not much help with your response. I doubt this cousin would respond to anything anyone said because she's doing what she thinks is right I guess.

paula

[chadzwife]

I think it's kinda funny no one seemed to be able to say that this girl, if she wants to LATER, can ALWAYS "fill in her gaps". Even in college, there are lots of high school level courses you can take to get you up to speed. They are there becuz soooo many high school grads can't place out in a test at freshman college level. So they have to take "transition courses" as prereqs. A vet tech is the lowest job in the vet field, it's a 2yr degree. So even if she had to take an extra 2 semesters of classes, it wouldn't be the end of anything, let alone her life.

Learning homemaking skills and child-training skills and maybe some kind of skill where she could make money--like calligraphy, cake decorating, seamstress, piano/flute/trombone(!), remodelling houses, designing websites, writing children's books, doing hospice-type care...are all things she MAY be doing instead.

You can always learn a fact or come to understand a process; basic skills like cooking a meal for 6 on a $7 budget and keeping your clothes in good repair seem to be very hard to learn and actually DO after you've spent all your time with your nose in books during your teen years. I think it's a character issue. I also don't think neglecting real world needs in favor of academa bodes well for a person. "Neglecting" academa for the real world tho? Unless she's sitting in front of the tv or pc monitor, I would highly doubt she won't be better off than the person in the last sentence.

I've watched too much played out along both avenues, in my long life, to bet on higher ed/high school ed being the savior many think it is and the lack of higher ed being the devil lol.

[Peela]

I think it's kinda funny no one seemed to be able to say that this girl, if she wants to LATER, can ALWAYS "fill in her gaps". Even in college, there are lots of high school level courses you can take to get you up to speed. They are there becuz soooo many high school grads can't place out in a test at freshman college level. So they have to take "transition courses" as prereqs. A vet tech is the lowest job in the vet field, it's a 2yr degree. So even if she had to take an extra 2 semesters of classes, it wouldn't be the end of anything, let alone her life.

Learning homemaking skills and child-training skills and maybe some kind of skill where she could make money--like calligraphy, cake decorating, seamstress, piano/flute/trombone(!), remodelling houses, designing websites, writing children's books, doing hospice-type care...are all things she MAY be doing instead.

You can always learn a fact or come to understand a process; basic skills like cooking a meal for 6 on a $7 budget and keeping your clothes in good repair seem to be very hard to learn and actually DO after you've spent all your time with your nose in books during your teen years. I think it's a character issue. I also don't think neglecting real world needs in favor of academa bodes well for a person. "Neglecting" academa for the real world tho? Unless she's sitting in front of the tv or pc monitor, I would highly doubt she won't be better off than the person in the last sentence.

I've watched too much played out along both avenues, in my long life, to bet on higher ed/high school ed being the savior many think it is and the lack of higher ed being the devil lol.

 

I tend to agree that one is better with a real life education and less academia , (particularly if "real life" included gaining many skills that could be used to make money), than vice versa, however one wonders whether some kids get either, and I don't know in the OP's situation.

Education is at least education...whether it is "real life", gaining practical skills such as trades or apprenticeships or just setting up a business, or higher academic skills (I honestly havent used most of the higher math I learned at school)- we are all better off for having learned more rather than less, especially during our teen years. I am not saying all educations are equal- just that neglect is different from helping your kids get a different type of education than the mainstream one. In some cases, it is neglect rather than simply an alternative and equally valid pathway.

Of course...kids are resourceful and in the end, they can do what they need to do to catch up. Whether they find themselves in a psychological or financial position to do so is another question.

[Alphabetika]

Since you mentioned that this was at church . . .

 

Math and science allow us to more fully appreciate the world that God has placed us in. The more we know about creation, the more is revealed about the Creator.

 

Math and science are essential for Christians if we are going to continue to have a voice in ethical discussions regarding medicine and science. (I got this emphasis from a podcast by Linda Janikowsky - Math God's Invention Man's Discovery).

 

If a family believes strongly that the father is the breadwinner and head of the household, but also hopes that their daughters will grow up equiped to teach their grandchildren, then it is important to give those future teachers the tools to teach grandsons too. It may also insulate the daughter's family against government intervention if laws governing homeschooling become more restrictive.

 

If a child is capable of doing upper level work and we as parents do not foster the development of that God given ability, then we are exasperating our child and (IMHO) also failing to live up to our responsibilities as parents.

 

It is one thing to say that if the choice is between our child being an astrophysicist with no faith and a God-fearing plumber that we'd pick plumbing. But I think that it is something else entirely to say that we will abandon the study of science to those with no faith or to imply that our faith will not stand up to encounters with science or unbelievers. Give our kids the tools they need. Don't just abandon whole fields of research.

 

On the other hand, lazy parents are not restricted to non-Christians or to non-homeschoolers. There are families who will use all sorts of excuses to explain why they aren't doing hard things.

 

Excellent post, Sebastian!:hurray:

[Alphabetika]

I assume this lady is a Christian since you mentioned talking to her at church. One of my friends once said to me that they were only going to educate their children to the point where they had enough education to be pastors or missionaries. :glare: I had a lot to say to that :rant: but the only comment that made a difference to her was when I said that no parent knows absolutely what God's plan is for their child. Therefore we have an obligation to give them the highest possible education in order to equip them for whatever tasks they might have in life. Maybe if your friend considers things from that point of view she might change her mind...

 

 

I would want to know why she assumed that pastors and missionaries only had certain levels of education. Our pastor has a PhD and the missionaries we know are all college graduates, some with advanced degrees. I know this isn't true of all pastors and missionaries, but it seems like a pretty drastic assumption to let guide your whole educational philosophy.

[mammaofbean]

a degree is not required to become a vet tech. unless the market is very competitive where you are, this girl could get a vet tech job at 16 while still in high school. i would recommend this to the mother. there is the possibility that working with a vet will inspire her to continue her studies.

[creekland]

When I get kids in the ps (where I work subbing for high school math/science) who ask me why they have to learn higher level math because they want to be x, y or z that will never use it I remind them of how the brain grows.

 

Between pre-puberty and low 20's the human brain has grown tremendously. It has a capability of learning that is unequaled except in the preschool years. EVERY time a teen learns something "different" they "turn on the lights" in a new section of brain - enabling them to keep that section for the rest of their lives. Anything not used by those early 20's is LOST - forever - literally - it dies.

 

While it's true that those of us old fogies CAN learn new tricks, we need to write over sections of our brain that we already have, which is tougher. Teens get to write it on new brain. Those adults who were engaged learners as teens have it much easier in their older lives as they have a lot more brain to use. Those adults that weren't engaged learners... well, to be politically correct... I'll let you fill in the blanks as to what happens - or google it. Those that focused on mainly one thing, say, piano, are still excellent at that, but...(fill in the blank again).

 

It's important to realize the teen learning needs to be varied as all of the "same" thing gets stored in the same areas. You can't just study math, or English, or mechanics, or cake decorating, etc, etc, but a little of ALL of them will give them the most productive adult life possible - even if they never use exactly what they learned later on. They still have that section of the brain to re-use.

 

I have my boys learn as much as they can - both academic and otherwise - and math is definitely a part of it even for my potential future foreign aid worker who assured me he knew all the math he would ever need... Granted, he won't need (or do) Calculus, but he's finishing Alg 1 right now AND he knows how to fix fence, replace a bathtub, chop down a tree, how the solar system works, how to write an essay, etc, etc, etc. He even plays an occasional computer game. ;)

 

It's sad what this mother has chosen, and yes, it does give homeschoolers a bad name. There are several out there like her. Chances are that her mom's mom was the same way. In PA we see their portfolios all the time at the high school level. While ps isn't all that great, at least it exposes kids to many different academic subjects (and then some - both good and bad). Many choose to do as little as possible preferring low education, but some do take advantage of their opportunities - many moreso AFTER I've had a chance to clue them in to their future brain development. It doesn't matter what their career choice is.

[Peela]

When I get kids in the ps (where I work subbing for high school math/science) who ask me why they have to learn higher level math because they want to be x, y or z that will never use it I remind them of how the brain grows.

 

Between pre-puberty and low 20's the human brain has grown tremendously. It has a capability of learning that is unequaled except in the preschool years. EVERY time a teen learns something "different" they "turn on the lights" in a new section of brain - enabling them to keep that section for the rest of their lives. Anything not used by those early 20's is LOST - forever - literally - it dies.

 

While it's true that those of us old fogies CAN learn new tricks, we need to write over sections of our brain that we already have, which is tougher. Teens get to write it on new brain. Those adults who were engaged learners as teens have it much easier in their older lives as they have a lot more brain to use. Those adults that weren't engaged learners... well, to be politically correct... I'll let you fill in the blanks as to what happens - or google it. Those that focused on mainly one thing, say, piano, are still excellent at that, but...(fill in the blank again).

 

It's important to realize the teen learning needs to be varied as all of the "same" thing gets stored in the same areas. You can't just study math, or English, or mechanics, or cake decorating, etc, etc, but a little of ALL of them will give them the most productive adult life possible - even if they never use exactly what they learned later on. They still have that section of the brain to re-use.

 

I have my boys learn as much as they can - both academic and otherwise - and math is definitely a part of it even for my potential future foreign aid worker who assured me he knew all the math he would ever need... Granted, he won't need (or do) Calculus, but he's finishing Alg 1 right now AND he knows how to fix fence, replace a bathtub, chop down a tree, how the solar system works, how to write an essay, etc, etc, etc. He even plays an occasional computer game. ;)

 

It's sad what this mother has chosen, and yes, it does give homeschoolers a bad name. There are several out there like her. Chances are that her mom's mom was the same way. In PA we see their portfolios all the time at the high school level. While ps isn't all that great, at least it exposes kids to many different academic subjects (and then some - both good and bad). Many choose to do as little as possible preferring low education, but some do take advantage of their opportunities - many moreso AFTER I've had a chance to clue them in to their future brain development. It doesn't matter what their career choice is.

 

Thankyou- I really appreciate this information. Sometimes its hard to justify some subjects to my teens...you have given me ammunition! And...it makes sense, too.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I know very few conscientious homeschoolers at the high school level. It is pretty common to drop the ball. The best I think we can do is encourage the children to pick it up.

 

Wow, really? I don't know anyone who would behave in that manner. I had no idea!!! The other home schoolers in my life pretty much dedicate their lives to teaching their kids to the utmost of their ability. We may farm out a class we don't feel confidant to teach, but just not teaching is unconscionable.

 

It saddens me to think that a mother would not help their child reach either their potential or their goals.

 

And, incidentally, it pisses me off that people like that give home schoolers who work their ass*s off for 12 years a bad name!!!! Oh goodie, lets send a few more red flags up for heavy regulation.

[JFSinIL]

Could that parent at least get a "teacher in a can" program (Chalkdust, etc.) for the kid? The student could then do her own work, check her own answers - all Mom would HAVE to do is order the program.

[keptwoman]

creekland, I'd really like to be able to put this information to my son who has a bit of a one track mind. Could you please link me to an appropriate study?

[jld]

I would really hope that people would think long and hard before turning in another homeschooling parent for "educational neglect". Of all the things that can be done to harm a child, not planning to give her an algebra or chemistry book is unlikely to be at the top of the list.

[angela in ohio]

We know several families like this. They come in three categories to me: (1.) we don't need any formal education, as we can find jobs that don't need it, and that will be more glorifying to God ("we just want them to be Godly"), (2.) education is fine, but girls don't need it, and (3.) we just didn't get around to it.

 

The first sort end up struggling financially, but bask in t, and seem to like MLM schemes more than the average person. They forget that we do need Godly doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc., in their guilt trip over getting an education being equal to not trusting God. Like PP have said, most missionaries and pastors need higher education, and you can't argue that they aren't doing God's work.

 

One thing that bothers me about the 'girls don't need to know that' mentality is that many intend for their daughters to eventually homeschool. Even if you believe that a girl isn't going to use high school academics, how is she going to help her SON learn them well when she is clueless? :001_huh:

We're looking at a perpetual downward spiral there.

 

The "we just didn't get around to it" seem to start Algebra in 9th or 10th grade and then never get past it. They are doing science in high school, but it is elementary level ("to get/keep their interest") They usually have unrealistic expetations ("She's hoping for a college scholarship. He wants to be a doctor.") based on what they are doing academically.

 

She is breaking the law in Michigan, because she is to be teaching certain subject areas until age 16 at least. Just because we don't report each year doesn't mean we don't have regulations. Also, vet tech jobs are competitive around here, and they will expect a two year degree for any decent paying job. She won't get past the community college entrance exam without some high school work. Remedial courses will cost more money than mom would have spent on a textbook at home, so it is also a waste of money. Practically, this girl probably needs at least Algebra I, Geometry, Physical Science, and Biology in high school.

 

Why make the poor girl make it up later if she wants it? We are managing to teach our dds a full load of academics and a full course of homemaking/ real life skills. We had a goal for them to be able to run our home at 18, but my dd is there now, and she is 14. I could leave tomorrow, and she could keep on going, running everything (cooking, cleaning, groceries, laundry) quite easily. She can take care of a baby or a toddler, disciplining and educating them. She can knit, crochet, sew, bake, cross stitch, quill, draw, make candles, etc., etc. We did all this while she took an advanced path academically, and while being active outside our home in church and the community. This isn't a matter of being able to do one or the other. Many homeschoolers I know are doing both. You can do both, and these parents are choosing not to.

 

To answer your question, I would just gently steer her each time she brings it up. I wouldn't get involved further than that, as it will not help the situation.

Edited May 18, 2010 by angela in ohio

[G5052]

I can't count how many I've heard the "who needs algebra anyway" talk, and then when the kid is 20 and unable to work anywhere but Tropical Smoothie, they end up at the community college trying to take remedial courses without the habits required to take a difficult course and excel. Some will figure it out and keep at it until they do it, but some will not.

 

I push my kids hard academically, but I tell them that it's better to do it now when they have few responsibilities and a mom doing it who loves them dearly.

[elegantlion]

So I wonder what this girl learned this year, since the thread was started at the beginning of the school year. :001_huh:

[Ester Maria]

First off, I don't believe in absolute right to tailor your child's education as you please - no matter how "heretical" it might sound on these boards. Certainly, a lot of us choose to homeschool, amongst other reasons, because of the educational freedom related to it, but as with everything, there should be limits with regards to that too.

 

That being said, I firmly believe that a home education should provide a child with the standard equivalent if not better and more of the education they would have received in the school system. I'm not talking about how the schools do (not) handle it - I'm talking content-wise, curriculum-wise. If you cannot provide your child with the educational minimum that the government high school would provide them with in the areas of common cultural and scientific literacy (i.e. at least the equivalent of the requirements related to mathematics, sciences, native and foreign language literacy, history and citizenship, whatever makes it in the "standard education" of your area) - you're better off not homeschooling your child in the first place, and you're really better off not homeschooling them near me, I might make problems - because if I were positive that there is a family that purposely provides their children with a substandard education, and if the children are academically at least average, healthy, and with no objective impediments to receive at least the equivalent of the standard high school education, I would seriously consider turning the family in on the grounds of educational neglect (not without expressing my worries to them first, of course).

 

Homeschooling is great - and it's also a system that can be very easily manipulated. If I care about the child in question, I have a moral obligation to react if I notice his or her parents are exploiting the system to harm the child educationally.

 

Yes, all that many of you wrote above is true - that things "can be made up for", that public schools usually suck in the realization of their program, that not teaching algebra is far, far less evil than many other evils parents can do to children. And you're right - really. But just because something is a "lesser evil", it doesn't mean it's not an evil, and it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the child both on the short and on the long run.

 

Also, remember that we're talking about a 14-15 y.o. child. More likely than not, she will change her mind a few more times regarding what she wants to do in life. She CANNOT be denied a proper, diverse education on the grounds of a childhood/youth fit of what she wants, or what she now thinks she wants, to do in life. My 13 y.o. wants to major in French - there's no way I'm cutting on her Maths and sciences. I must provide her with such an education that, should she change her mind in a few years, she would still be able to go into, say, Medicine, and decently prepared for that.

 

Just because a kid wants to do X in life, or thinks now that they want to do it, it doesn't mean I'm giving up on the big picture, context, and diversity. High school education, in my opinion, should not be a "narrow specialization" of a few things that the parent deems important, with the rest of the doors closed.

 

I also don't think that I'm "dictating" anything to anyone if I say that you cannot receive a standard education without algebra. Freedom, yes - but within some normal limits, especially in high school which is a critical period with regards to the rest of the child's life.

 

The parents of the young girl the OP wrote about (a year ago, no idea why the thread was resurrected? :confused:) are doing their daughter a BIG disservice. It's not the question of educational freedom of a parent - it's the question of a child's right at least to the equivalent of the standard education. I'm all for freedoms, but I think we need some healthy balance here, children should not be the victims of their parents' limitations and ideas, if those lead to a substandard education.

 

Only my .02.

[FaithManor]

I am a Michigan homeschooling mom, so this woman really offends me. We have a lot of homeschooling freedoms in Michigan and people like her will be the reason that we lose it.

 

I think that first you should give her a copy of the Michigan homeschool guidelines. These can be printed either from the Department of Education website or H.S.L.D.A. It might be easier to navigate HSLDA's website. Highlight that part about teaching subjects comparable to the public school.

 

I would also copy off the admission's requirements for the vet-tech program of you closest college. Ask her if she intends on lying to the admission's department and issuing a high school transcript for subjects not taught.

 

After that, I would also remind her that without some high school education, her daughter would likely not pass the GED and if she can't pass that, most community colleges and many vocational programs would be out of reach. We have a k-8 Mennonite school in our area. Many of the Mennonite parents refuse to homeschool their children for through any high school level work. They wait until they are 18 and have them take the GED. Most fail! Even though they did have a solid math and english foundation with Rod and Staff books, it still isn't enough to get them through the test. Four years of studying nothing and then "go take the test" doesn't work. There isn't a single employer in our area that will employ a person over 18 without at least a GED and most will not hire a GED if an actual high school graduate is available.

 

Ask her, "Are you planning on supporting your daughter for the rest of her life?" I'd also let her know that if she has a teen at home below the legal drop-out age who is not engaged in formal study of the core subjects, she could be turned in to social services and they would be doing a service to the child to force the mother to put her in school. Yeah, public schools around here are terrible. But, still, at least she would have teachers and they will help motivated kids and the books are available so she could avail herself of some learning, get a diploma, and get into a vet-tech program.

 

I hate to say it, but we have a lot of people in Michigan that just don't value education at all.

 

I guess you can tell that I have no patience for those that claim to homeschool and then have no intention of providing education commensurate to the child's abilities.

 

Faith

[Gratia271]

I do, however, fully respect her ability to make those decisions entirely on her own as a the parent. It is scary (!) to me that some are suggesting the government should intervene here and "do something" or that a relative or friend should turn this mother in to the state! I have a doctorate and fully understand there ARE many benefits to higher learning.

:iagree:

 

 

This is the wrong board to disagree with the idea in this thread, but I'll do it anyway. It's not nice to talk down about other people's choices, even when they are very different from your own.

:iagree:

 

While my husband and I are both highly educated and value rigorous education for our children, I find it arrogant and presumptuous on the part of people who believe they have the right to dictate the choices of someone else for whom they are not responsible. For me, the core issue is not whether math, science, languages etc.. should be taught at thus and so level, in which case people could reasonably argue that many homeschools, public schools, etc.. perform an inferior job (to say the least). The central issue here is whether someone has or should have the right to determine someone's personal choices for her individual family. For me, the answer is no. People who assume this superior posture may find themselves similarly situated down the road with someone else who has yet a higher standard.

[FaithManor]

I agree that in a perfect world, this would not be a concern for us. It would be their family's concern. In a true republic that really adhered to the constitution, this is a no brainer. The state nor anyone else should be dictating their choices.

 

But, we don't have a perfect world and our constitutional republic is not doing so well. We are in a state in which we have three legislators who have met people similar to those described in the OP and now want to regulate homeschooling and are HOT to get this done.

 

The point is that the law really doesn't allow them to make this choice. There is immense freedom in Michigan to homeschool but there are guidelines that the state wants us to follow. They are not prohibitive or restrictive. However, if homeschoolers flaunt these guidelines it won't be long before we end up needing to register, show the lesson plans, turn in portfolios, and adhere to mandatory standardized testing. That means there will be fewer choices for homeschooling families. So I do think that since we've twice in the past three years had narrowly defeated legislation to attempt to regulate homeschooling in this state, it is a legitimate issue for us to talk about. Her decision to not follow the homeschooling guidelines can affect all of us.

 

The interesting thing is that the Mennonite community in our state is not taken to task if their kids are neither homeschooled nor enrolled in school beyond the 8th grade though most of these children are 13 or 14 ears old. I guess this falls under a religious freedeom rule. But, the fact remains that failing to homeschool and follow reasonable subject guidelines until the age of 16 can have an effect on homeschooling freedoms in Michigan.

 

Yes, I personally do not feel the state has a right to us how to educate our children. I also do not have a "right" to tell them how to do it and I wouldn't - how to do it is up to them. But, I would not have a problem reminding them of their responsibilities because ultimately, the rights of others to "not follow the guidelines" may eventually affect Michigan homeschooling rights and in a very negative fashion. The reality is they are in violation of homeschool law.

 

I am sorry if that is a controversial stance. I just feel like there are many lawmakers in this state that are just waiting to clobber homeschooling and we need to be proactive about protecting our current homeschooling freedom.

 

Faith

[Ester Maria]

Yes, I personally do not feel the state has a right to us how to educate our children. I also do not have a "right" to tell them how to do it and I wouldn't - how to do it is up to them. But, I would not have a problem reminding them of their responsibilities because ultimately, the rights of others to "not follow the guidelines" may eventually affect Michigan homeschooling rights and in a very negative fashion. The reality is they are in violation of homeschool law.

While I essentially agree with the "how" part, I'm not sure I would claim the same for the "what" part. I actually seriously believe that children should be protected, amongst other things, from their own parents' ideas of what's best for them. I really tend to view the guidelines / standards in that light, as opposed to in the light of the "evil government dictating us what to do".

 

And I really believe, as I said earlier, that if you cannot provide your children with the equivalent minimum, you should not be trusted to homeschool. After all, legalizing homeschooling is a HUGE act of trust - a trust that a person without degrees in each of the fields (and often without a degree AT ALL!!) they teach will a. manage to teach that, or outsource as they wish; b. manage to grade that being intellectually honest while doing so; c. not manipulate the system to harm the child, claim something which hasn't been done or issue a diploma which isn't the equivalent of the state one.

 

Coming from a European background, this is a HUGE act of trust and homeschool freedoms in America are really amazing. Maybe even "too amazing", in sense that it's often such a fragile system with so little outside control that children can end up being victims of it and receiving less than what they should. That's what I'm concerned about - especially when certain type of parents start rambling about these and that kind of "rights" more than about their obligations as educators. As untrained educators for most if not all of what they teach, in fact!

 

For comparison, my daughters have exams in the ENTIRE set of subjects they would have had if they actually attended "their school" during the year, EVERY year. Written exams AND oral examinations, everything required out of any other child, every. single. subject., included English (everybody knows that by the virtue of living in an anglophone environment they speak it better than people who examine them - but the rules are the rules). Sounds rather strict, but you cannot manipulate such a system to hurt the child - you can only provide them with more than what they're "entitled" to by living there.

 

When you consider that, you cannot not appreciate the ultra-permissive laws most of you have as American citizens who educate their kids at home. You get to choose pretty much everything - and if with that much choice and freedom you cannot "choose" to provide at least with the standard education, then really... It isn't worth it then.

[creekland]

creekland, I'd really like to be able to put this information to my son who has a bit of a one track mind. Could you please link me to an appropriate study?

 

When I have time I will hunt for a website that details it out. The best way we saw it presented was actually on a TV documentary a couple (maybe more, but not lots) years back. Channels we like to watch include Discovery & Science and my best thought is it was on one of those. They mention where studies are done, but I don't remember specifics. I do know it was the invention of the MRI and being able to study living people and their brains at work that re-wrote brain development thoughts. I also know it's an ongoing study - esp related to Alzheimers and the like. A later study showed those with more neuron connections were NOT less likely to actually get the start of Alzheimers, but it had less of an effect (sometimes dramatically) due to more ways for thoughts to get around in the brain.

 

Maybe google human brain development and look for current research? You'll also find things showing why teens make such "strange" judgments, etc... due to how and when their brain does the final pruning (until it kills off that which is not used, many things are fair game for a far more in depth reasons than I have time to write here).

 

If folks get interested... there are also current ongoing studies figuring out how the texting and tweeting mind is programming our teens' brains - literally reprogramming them to have next to no attention span for in depth things. Science channel and Discovery Channel shows on the brain are informative and scary. My teens neither text nor tweet.

[KnitWit]

I know people who are choosing this path, especially for daughters. They have been greatly influenced by Vision Forum. It is not my choice, but not uncommon. (And I realize not everyone choosing this path follows VF and not everyone who loves VF follows this path LOL! )

 

I do uphold a parent's right to choose for their own children, but I believe parents should be accountable to be sure they don't *limit* their children. I have observed more than once where a parent has made a choice like this, only for the child to choose a path that DOES require higher academics. SURE they can learn it later, but it has been a frustration.