Jean in Newcastle Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Dd7 has a library card. (We all have our own library card.) I hold the library cards. But we don't use them because we all have our numbers memorized - even dd7 and it is easier that way. Dd7 asked me for her physical library card. I told her no because I would have to root around in my files for it and she has the number memorized anyway. . . So, she did an end-run around me at the library and was issued a new card with a new number. I was so mad. Not so much at dd7 - she is a kid after all and was just trying to get around her mom's "no". We had a consequence once we got home and that was that. But I asked the librarian who issued it if it was their policy to issue cards to 7 year olds without their parent's input and was told, "Yes, we respect children of all ages and treat them as adults." What? I respect my kids as people but they are not adults - I am still the parent and expect the community to respect my position as a parent. The librarians at this small library know very well who I am and knew that I was one bookcase over looking at the books. All they had to do was to come and ask "is this ok?" Is this becoming more common - to ignore the authority of the parent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I would have asked, "Who is financially responsible should she lose a book or get a fine?" with this look on my face: :sneaky2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Interesting. So, who would they hold financially responsible for lost or damaged books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnieB Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Hey, if you as the parent didn't authorize them to give your daughter the card then you can't be held responsible for her losses. I'd probably be calling the district librarian and lodging a complaint anyway, and letting them know that you don't intend to be responsible since DD7 is now an adult in their eyes. Good luck collecting from a 7 year old. Our library makes an adult sign the paperwork before a child under 14 can get a card. Ooo, another good question for them.....what about the law that says they are not allowed to request personal information from any child under the age of 13 (it's mostly used for computer sites, but the law, I believe is for anyone collecting personal information like name, address, phone, email. I can't imagine they gave her a card without that information and the law says they have to have parental consent. This one isn't even "adult" meaning an older friend could do it for her. Yeah, I wouldn't let this one go.....DD should have consequences, but so should the library. And I'm still trying to figure out how respect equals treatment as an adult? So if they thought of your DD7 as a child she wouldn't be entitled to respect? Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdogs29906 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm sure that was irritating. At our library, kids must give permission for the parents to access their (kids) account or to even have parents speak with a librarian about their account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 has to have the parent signature if a juvenile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm sure it was irritating but was the librarian just trying to be helpful by giving dd a replacement card? Dd knew her card number so the librarian likely didn't think twice about it. It would be different if they issued a card to a child without a parent there but this sounds like a replacement. Lots of kids in our town go to the library frequently but if they had to drag a parent in to get a replacement for a lost card it might take a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm sure it was irritating but was the librarian just trying to be helpful by giving dd a replacement card? Dd knew her card number so the librarian likely didn't think twice about it. It would be different if they issued a card to a child without a parent there but this sounds like a replacement. Lots of kids in our town go to the library frequently but if they had to drag a parent in to get a replacement for a lost card it might take a while. Yes, it was technically a "replacement" but it was also an entirely new number. I do not want to memorize a totally new number and put a new number in my computer (my computer knows our numbers for when we order stuff on-line) etc. which is one of the reasons I told dd7 "no" to getting another card. But what angered me re. the librarian was a. they knew she was not there alone (not that I would send a 7 year old alone anyway) and b. if dd7 had been even more sneaky and had kept her new card a secret from me then she indeed could have had fines accruing that I knew nothing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'd be tempted to let her use her card, run up a small fine, and refuse to pay for it since you did not authorize it. Better, though, to call the head librarian and let them know that you will not be responsible for the fines on her new card as it was not authorized by you. Ask them if they would like continue treating her like an adult and seek any future fine payment directly from her or cancel the card now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 It seems if the librarian knew it was a 'replacement' card...she should have used the same acct number. Like you....I have my number memorized also....and never take my card with me. I think I would call and get it straightened out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renthead Mommy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I question the kid and want to know exactly what she told the librarian. Did she say "I lost my physical card and need a new one. The number is 1234." If so, then all the librarian has to do is switch her already in the system over to a new card number and cancel her old number. And then I wouldn't blame the librarian at all, but the kid would be in major trouble, because the lied. Or did she say "My mom won't give me my physical card, but I want one, so can I have a new one?" Then I'd be annoyed at the librarian for not asking you about it because it's clear there is an issue there, but the kid would be more trouble still. To me I'm thinking the kid manipulated the situation to get what she wants and the librarian had no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renthead Mommy Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 It seems if the librarian knew it was a 'replacement' card...she should have used the same acct number. But I've never seen a library that prints it's own cards. They usually have a stack of them already numbered. They type in the new number and give you the pre printed card. Ours (we just joined a new library the other day.) have always given us not only a card, but a key tag that puches out of the plastic as well. The have no control over the numbers. It's already on the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I wouldn't blame them, really. While the comment the staff member made was rather odd, all they did was replace a physical card - - you had already given permission for dd to have a card. They didn't issue a library card without parental permission, and they had no reason to think this wasn't a routine lost card. I personally would be much more upset with dd for deliberately disobeying me. She's the one who knew you had told her to use her number rather than the physical card. I'm sure the library staff was operating under the assumption that she had lost her card, not that she didn't have permission to have it! They have to cancel the old number and issue a new card, otherwise a lost card could be used by anyone who found it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 In my area, I have to sign for my kids to get a library card. We have a rule in our house that you have to write your first and last name well to earn the card (this was the rule at the library when I was growing up). But, I have to renew the cards once a year and show ID. The last time I renewed my son's they asked him if he knew his PIN and I said I had it. She said that it was his responsibility and it was really none of my business what his number was. It's private. I gently reminded here that he was an 8yo and that he is my responsibility but thank you for her input. I walked away a bit flustered but our library system is so good, I have a hard time complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 At my library, a child can get their own card, but the parents cannot find out what's been checked out due to privacy concerns. This can be a problem if, for example, the parent has concerns about fines or what has been returned, among other issues. So even though it might be "fun" for my kids to have their own card, I keep track of all library material in the house and need to be able to determine what's been checked in or out, so I'm keeping everyone's material on my card. This is the position of many libraries (there have been issues about, say, rated R movies because libraries generally allow anyone to check them out, which some parents object to). Whatever your view on the issue, I think it's worth knowing what your library's policy is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 At my library, a child can get their own card, but the parents cannot find out what's been checked out due to privacy concerns. This can be a problem if, for example, the parent has concerns about fines or what has been returned, among other issues. So even though it might be "fun" for my kids to have their own card, I keep track of all library material in the house and need to be able to determine what's been checked in or out, so I'm keeping everyone's material on my card. This is the position of many libraries (there have been issues about, say, rated R movies because libraries generally allow anyone to check them out, which some parents object to). Whatever your view on the issue, I think it's worth knowing what your library's policy is. If your library uses Library Elf, you can keep track of all the cards and what is checked out online. Some libraries provide LE as a free service; others allow you to access it but you have to pay for it (it's free for one card but a charge for multiple cards). I'm surprised at the movie issue; no one under 18 can check out ANY dvds, cds or software in our library system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'm pretty sure that it's a federal law that if your child has their own library card/account, you (the parent) are not allowed access to find out what they've checked out. That could be troublesome with some content. For instance, when you have the FBI or Department of Homeland Security come knocking on your door because little Johnny figured out how to hack computers or build pipe bombs by reading library books checked out on their own account... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickelfritz Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'm pretty sure that it's a federal law that if your child has their own library card/account, you (the parent) are not allowed access to find out what they've checked out. I was able to link all of our accounts through Library Elf. All that is required for me to access their account is their name and card number. I can do all of that online. I've checked on fees, overdue books, etc... by handing a librarian all 3 of our cards and having them check all of our accounts and they've never batted an eyelash. Beyond money owed, they've told me what books were still out to see what we needed to go home and look for. If this was federal law, no library would be able to do things differently. My guess(and it's purely that) would put it at a procedure that each library sets up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 It seems if the librarian knew it was a 'replacement' card...she should have used the same acct number. Like you....I have my number memorized also....and never take my card with me. I think I would call and get it straightened out.I don't know about the library in question, but ours has cards pre-printed with the barcodes and account numbers, so it's impossible to get a replacement card with the same number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I think that if this happened in my house, it would be the signal for me to cancel that child's library card entirely. Said child could get their own card again when they had proven themselves trustworthy. If the point of the multiple cards was to allow for more books to be checked out per trip, then I guess checkouts would have to be rationed and approved. If that meant less fun series fiction because the queue was full of books that I wanted to have checked out, then that is just the consequence of going around me. I would also be having a discussion with the head librarian about their policies. Every library that I've been a member of has had me sign something that says I'm financially liable for the care of materials on loan. A minor can't be held responsible. If they are going to come to me for payment of fines and/or replacements, then they need to also show some deference to me in the way of access to materials. (I realize that I am in disagreement with the ALA on this. Not the first time; probably not the last.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I think that if this happened in my house, it would be the signal for me to cancel that child's library card entirely. Said child could get their own card again when they had proven themselves trustworthy. If the point of the multiple cards was to allow for more books to be checked out per trip, then I guess checkouts would have to be rationed and approved. If that meant less fun series fiction because the queue was full of books that I wanted to have checked out, then that is just the consequence of going around me. I would also be having a discussion with the head librarian about their policies. Every library that I've been a member of has had me sign something that says I'm financially liable for the care of materials on loan. A minor can't be held responsible. If they are going to come to me for payment of fines and/or replacements, then they need to also show some deference to me in the way of access to materials. (I realize that I am in disagreement with the ALA on this. Not the first time; probably not the last.) But the parents did sign her up for a library account in the first place; she had full parental permission to check out materials. Her mom simply didn't want to give her the physical card. Issuing her a new physical card did not give her any added ability to check out materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Yes, it was technically a "replacement" but it was also an entirely new number. I do not want to memorize a totally new number and put a new number in my computer (my computer knows our numbers for when we order stuff on-line) etc. which is one of the reasons I told dd7 "no" to getting another card. But what angered me re. the librarian was a. they knew she was not there alone (not that I would send a 7 year old alone anyway) and b. if dd7 had been even more sneaky and had kept her new card a secret from me then she indeed could have had fines accruing that I knew nothing about. Honestly, Jean, even though the librarian's comments were very weird, I do understand why she issued a replacement card. You had authorized the original card, so replacing it seems like a no-brainer. It would have been nice if she had checked with you, but I really don't think it's a huge deal that she didn't. It would have been a huge deal, IMHO, if she had given your dd the original card without your consent, but that wasn't the case. Your dd's actions, however, are a big deal, and I'm sure you'll come up with an appropriate consequence. As far as wanting the same number on the new card, I understand!!!!! The numbers do come preprinted on the cards, so unless you go to the specific library in your area that can reprint numbers, you get what you get. It won't take you long to memorize the new one, though, if you have to keep it. Could you call the main library office to find out if there is a way to get a new card with the old number? It may not be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 LOL! I was ticked off at the librarian and questioned their policy. I was told that their policy is to give replacement cards to anyone (minor or not) who asked. And yes, they have pre-printed cards that come with a new number. But when I complained, they gave me back her old number. (I had to tell them how to do it.) So, the card itself is not a problem. I just had a problem with their policy. It seems strange to me that a library system that will not allow me to pick up my dh's holds without a signed note from him, would allow my 7 yo dd to get a replacement card without my say so. As far as dd goes, yes, she lied to the librarian. And yes, she was in trouble. Later she went around the authority of her gymnastic's coach and got hurt on apparatus that she had no business being on - so she's learning to obey authority the hard way today. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyAberlin Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Well at my library, kids at that age can't check out videos or any type of media other than books. They get a kids card and I believe that the parent has to sign for it up until age 16 or so. So I don't think they would allow a 7 yr old to get one on her own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthouseacademy Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I just had a problem with their policy. It seems strange to me that a library system that will not allow me to pick up my dh's holds without a signed note from him, I am in the same library system as you... I pick up dh's holds all the time (they are really my holds on his number anyway!)... all that was required for me to be able to check out his hold or he mine was to add his name to my account and vice versa so when I go to the checkout desk instead of the self-help desk, I tell him my name and his and they let me check it out. In fact, I discovered that our accounts are linked in some way because I had a huge pile of holds and he had a couple too. I had them do his checkouts and since I was standing there let them do mine but they didn't need my number or anything, they just switched accounts on the screen. BTW I think the comments were very strange myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 As far as dd goes, yes, she lied to the librarian. And yes, she was in trouble. Later she went around the authority of her gymnastic's coach and got hurt on apparatus that she had no business being on - so she's learning to obey authority the hard way today. . . As unpleasant as the day has been, think of the benefits! If she grasps the lesson now, age 12 will be much easier for everyone! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I just had a problem with their policy. It seems strange to me that a library system that will not allow me to pick up my dh's holds without a signed note from him, would allow my 7 yo dd to get a replacement card without my say so. Do you use a library outside the King County system? I pick up holds for the rest of my family regularly. That seems odd to me that you'd have to have a note. I've never been asked if I have 'permission'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 It sounds like a case of the librarian thinking you sent her over, or at least had her permission. Most people wouldn't conceive of any harm coming from a 7yo having her own card, would they? If you were close by, why would a librarian think she was doing something wrong? Its not a "bad" thing normally, to want a library card. I would put it down to just someone trying to do the right thing, and getting it wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) We have 6 family members and 6 cards. Thankfully, even children can use their cards for any books, in any part of the library. I love that they will replace cards even for lowly children. ;) I pick up holds for all family members *all of the time*. I like that a child of any age can take out any book they wish. It's not the library's job to choose or police my child's (or mine, even if it's legal porn. ;)) readng or viewing material. Further, I can access any of the accounts using the bar code numnbers on the cards. If I so choose, I can check my kids' accounts with these barcodes any time I wish. It's like "First, let's kill all the libraians' week at WTM forums. Edited June 24, 2009 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 It's like "First, let's kill all the librarians' week at WTM forums. Since I was a librarian for 11 years, I don't want to kill all the librarians over what I think is bad policy.:confused: And actually the reason I even started this thread was the because of the rationale that they used that they would treat dd7 as an adult. Which she isn't. And so it's bad thinking as well as bad policy! Crissy - now that I have dh's number memorized and can check-out at the self help desk, I do not need a note to check out his holds. But the one time my mind went blank and I asked the librarian to look up his number and let me check it out, I was told that I needed a note from him authorizing me to check out his stuff. Silly bureaucracy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Since I was a librarian for 11 years, I don't want to kill all the librarians over what I think is bad policy.:confused: And actually the reason I even started this thread was the because of the rationale that they used that they would treat dd7 as an adult. Which she isn't. And so it's bad thinking as well as bad policy! Crissy - now that I have dh's number memorized and can check-out at the self help desk, I do not need a note to check out his holds. But the one time my mind went blank and I asked the librarian to look up his number and let me check it out, I was told that I needed a note from him authorizing me to check out his stuff. Silly bureaucracy! I personally do not think it's bad policy. :D Btw, our library will not allow any checkouts without a card. Which is too bad, as I have memorized all of the numbers, none of which are useful any longer. :tongue_smilie: I must have the cards are with me at checkout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 But the parents did sign her up for a library account in the first place; she had full parental permission to check out materials. Her mom simply didn't want to give her the physical card. Issuing her a new physical card did not give her any added ability to check out materials. Not sure if this was a reply to my post or if mine was just last at the time. The reason I would be removing that child's library privleges (if a similar situation happened with my kids) is that the child would have demonstrated that I couldn't trust them with the responsibilities of being more than a little kid (like being truthful and following my guidelines). This would be a consequence of the child's actions, not of the library's choice to issue the card. I don't hate librarians. Although I do think that as a professional body, they have unreasonable positions about providing information access to minors. We're heavy book people here. But my kids have to keep demonstrating that they are reliable enough to check books out. We had a book long overdue that the kids insisted they'd returned. I finally said either they found the book or paid to replace it, but they weren't checking out new books until one or the other happened. Funny, the book turned up that evening (after a month of fruitless searches). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I would assume the librarian was being helpful in issuing a replacement card, since the child already had a card, and you were there with her. I doubt the librarian was thinking that the child would be going behind your back with you so close. Like PP said, it would just be a replacement on the same account, even though it has a new number. The comment was wierd. It sounds like she was trying to cover her tracks by sounding official. :D Our library requires a parent to sign up for a minor's card. I'd say you got a rogue librarian, and I doubt that is even their policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristenS Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Around here, parents can access a child's account (child being under 14) because they are in fact responsible for the fines, children's cards have different limits, etc. You canNOT access a spouse's records because such information is confidential. (Which is annoying for a mom coming in to pay all fines at once.) When I worked at the library, I was told the example of someone who didn't follow that rule ... and the husband ended up finding out the wife was consulting books on how to file for divorce... So in those respects, at least, I do support the privacy rules. There really do need to be safeguards on some things. As for replacement cards, they charge a fee around here after the first card, so a child couldn't get one anyway without some handy cash. Except they've told me they'll give me a free replacement (because my card makes them laugh ... it's the earliest barcode card our system ever used, and probably the only one of that style still in active circulation ... I'm going for a record to have the lowest card number in use, LOL). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I would assume the librarian was being helpful in issuing a replacement card, since the child already had a card, and you were there with her. I doubt the librarian was thinking that the child would be going behind your back with you so close. Like PP said, it would just be a replacement on the same account, even though it has a new number. The comment was wierd. It sounds like she was trying to cover her tracks by sounding official. :D Our library requires a parent to sign up for a minor's card. I'd say you got a rogue librarian, and I doubt that is even their policy. Rogue librarian for the win! It's even fun to say :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I just had a problem with their policy. It seems strange to me that a library system that will not allow me to pick up my dh's holds without a signed note from him, would allow my 7 yo dd to get a replacement card without my say so. I don't know yet what my library's policies are--I'll have to check. I just got a card for dd5 because I had my limit of DVDs checked out (5), and was picking up one on hold. She doesn't even know she has a card. :001_smile: I have my card number memorized, but it's just for checking my account online. I have to have my card to check out materials--I found out when I forgot my card once, and offered to recite the number, but they wouldn't allow it. Dh can pick up my holds with his card or mine. I try to send my card with him when he's going to pick up my holds so I can more easily keep track of them online. I do have his card # written down so I can check his account online when I have materials on his card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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