Graduating college at 18 with a "co-chosen" major

[quark]

Ok, just spent the last chunk of evening reading half of the book haha. I love these parents actually! I found nothing overbearing or controlling at all about them. In fact, especially in the early years, they had a pretty Charlotte Mason approach to their homeschool.

 

Thank you for the summary. I just purchased the book too but have such a long list of books-to-read that I knew I was not going to get to it soon. $3.99 was a fair amount I thought and why I bought it. And they offer quite a generous preview in the Read Inside function on amazon.

 

I actually enjoyed the preview. It sounded like they really wanted their kids to love to learn and I am happy for them if this method was truly enjoyable for all the kids. I disagree that any kid can do this in the right environment because "right" is so subjective for everyone. The parents obviously seemed to have created a very learning-rich environment though and living in AZ with those resources might have also been what they meant by the "right" environment (for them). I would have died in the heat (I somewhat die in CA heat too).

 

Sometimes, it's so hard to know what someone's life was like from what we read in a book or forum. I don't want to judge before reading the whole book. The only thing that strikes me as unfair is being very firm about what the kids choose to major in...this is not very different from what parents do where I am from, especially if they are paying for the kids' education, but it had led to more than one person I know being very bitter with their parents and depressed and on depression medication by the time they are 30. But who knows? Maybe they would have been depressed anyway...too many variables to tell for sure.

 

Sometimes, also, people think that when kids start college young, it means giving up their childhood or teen-hood or whatever. I was cringing a little when SF Chronicle wrote that piece about my teen in Berkeley as a 15yo because you know, it creates all these assumptions about tiger parenting and losing precious growing up time. Nothing I say is going to convince anyone otherwise so I don't want to make the same error with this family. I wish the kids well. I really hope they will be happy with their choices.

[maize]

This quote at the beginning irks me:

 

"Our children’s consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

There are so many factors--starting with shared genes--that enter the equation.

 

The educational environment is one of them.

 

I'm impressed by these kids and their accomplishments, I'm glad the parents are sharing their path.

 

And I can guarantee they could have started with a totally different set of kids, set out the same way, and ended up in an entirely different place.

[Tsuga]

And yet . . . as someone who did the things you described, except I didn't make it to the Louvre until my 30's, I do sometimes feel behind now. I had my first child at age 38. My husband and I often talk about how we can "catch up" for retirement. We live comfortably, but we're also in an expensive part of the country, and our retirement funds need to reflect that. My husband supports us, but he didn't graduate with an undergrad business degree until he turned 30.

 

There are drawbacks to both ways of doing things. I'm not going to push my daughters to marry and start a family, but I will also be able to advise them of the pitfalls of waiting longer than average . . . I've been very, very lucky with my fertility. My sister hasn't been. Maybe early college/careers in high-paying fields DO make sense for women who think they may want a family someday?

I live in Seattle so I know what you mean about retirement. Right there with you. Still, I'd rather work until I can't and have travelled young.

 

Also, I am talking about those teen years specifically. I started college right at 18, graduated at 21. Worked. Nothing like a prodigy. I was in accelerated classes in school but I am not profoundly gifted in any sense of the word, and I did not do any early college beyond a few AP/DE classes.

 

I am not arguing against a rigorous high school education and strict college timeline. I think that it is great to graduate college by 20-21 and live free for a bit. You can marry without having children in all but the strictest sects.

 

There are 20 years between 18 and 38. I feel like the balance is graduate on time with at least some degree, live your life, marry / kids late 20s or be okay with adopting, move forward. There is definitely a balance and "have your first baby before 30" is still also good advice.

 

I don't think you need to start college at 14 to do that.

[quark]

I haven't read all the replies but I wanted to quickly say, before I go make dinner, that we like a different but similar idea to the book-family. Instead of graduating high school with a useful degree, what about graduating with a useful trade?

My kids will likely complete an apprenticeship in an area of their interest while finishing high school. My oldest is very interested in cooking and specifically patisserie - dh happens to be a baker. He could easily take her through a baking apprenticeship during her last few years at home, while she still has plenty of time for high school level liberal arts.

Learning an instrument has the same idea, it's a skill that the kids can decide to monetize if they want to - same dd will likely play at her first wedding this year...

 

I guess we're focused on a different kind of practical.

 

That said, I value the pace and freedom that homeschooling affords us, rushing to college as a blueprint wouldn't suit us.

 

Oh I love this idea! This would have been my ideal for my kid...until of course I actually had *my* kid born with a very specific set of interests and tendencies and wants and dislikes. When I started homeschooling, I wanted to introduce this kid to nature and orienteering (until a fear of deer ticks meant kid refused to go deeper into woods), carpentry (why mom?), sailing (too expensive where we lived at the time). I then realized we live in a very expensive area and very urban and that it was just so crazy to be able to juggle this with all of this kid's other interests.

 

And then, we found the community college! They have their own chef school! Oh my. A trade my kid would love, at last! At an affordable cost at last! Guess what, they refuse to take kids below 18. :banghead: So we just cook and bake at home. 

 

If the kid had loved baking as much as kid loves math, kid would have found a way to do it and find a mentor, I just know it. But you know what, it really is easier where I live to find math mentors than mentors in the trades. We heard of another child who does this and bakes all of his family's birthday cakes and I believe caters to local functions too. So cool. He's going to be a really cool food industry person some day.

 

The argument about community college being a poor choice for in-depth high school learning is also based on geographical factors btw. We have some really good ones here in CA and we pay $46 a unit. Families I know who use CC also supplement with other materials at home, many being materials you guys would use in a heart beat. Kids CAN get a fabulous high school education here through the CCs. It also helps the parent-child relationship when you sometimes have those explosive kids. The kids are a lot happier answering to profs and having parents cheering on as facilitators vs teachers.

 

So much depends on so many factors.

Edited January 28, 2018 by quark

[Arcadia]

Having been through that system, did it seem good or bad to you? To me it sounds better than what I see going on around me for a lot of kids.

Homeschooling is now a legal option there and minimum education age was raised from 12 to 16. Those to me are good changes.

 

The VoTech pathway has been great for people my age all the way down to current teens we know who doesn’t do well with bookwork. They can still enter college as a matured student later if they want to. Some enter college to get a bachelors in engineering to get a Professional engineer qualification later.

 

What my husband and I strongly dislike is the high academic stress on the kids 1st-12th grade in the academic pathway. I cruise through school since I didn’t push for a grade skip. My husband had to study hard to maintain As. The system that produces strong showing for PISA and TIMSS also produces Parents who are anxious about class rank and grades. My husband’s sister’s kids are in a non selective commuter college now and happy. My husband’s brother and wife are very anxious for their kids who are in 5th, 8th and 10th grade because their grades aren’t tippy top. So the pressure cooker environment for the academic track is crazy if parents are anxious over grades, less crazy for families who can afford overseas universities for their children.

[Tsuga]

I have a close friend who was a history major and has worked in Department of Defense in Intelligence Operations for years. Seems rather lucrative to me.

I have a degree in philosophy and outside of starting my own nonprofit never made below the median income for my state. By 37 I made the same amount as a mid-level electrical engineer and now the sky is the limit--my earned income is primarily constrained by whom I am willing to work with and how many hours. When I was only working non profit, it was a struggle to keep up in Seattle. But working in private business? :) Fewer hours, more pay.

 

There is no one path. The highest paid people in the country are mainly people in management and entrepreneurship with good connections in sales and marketing. A few of the top scientists make bank but I work with many people who left STEM for consulting because of $.

 

Higher starting salary is great and engineering is worth it if you love it but if you want money, all you have to do is focus on money and be persistent. It doesn't require 6 or more years of education. Persistence and connections will also do.

[8filltheheart]

This quote at the beginning irks me:

 

"Our children’s consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

......

And I can guarantee they could have started with a totally different set of kids, set out the same way, and ended up in an entirely different place.

Yes. My 26 yr old couldn't finish his degree bc his anxiety crippled him. My 24 yr old Dd and my 12 yr old dd's (were) are both solidly good but on grade-level students. Accelerated 4 yrs? No way. My 6th grader is no where close to functioning on a high school level.

 

If I had had a family that consisted of only our oldest, my 2 current college kids, and my youngest, then I would have thought this homeschooling gig was super easy and that acceleration was normal. (They also make parenting look easy, too. But, golly, number 2 has kept me humble!!)

[shinyhappypeople]

My DD is 13 and is in her 3rd semester of part-time college courses (not remediation, and in fact, she would not have been accepted had she not quite definitively placed into college courses). She is planning to get an AA in psychology, not because she wants to get her bachelor’s in psych, but because she finds the subject fascinating and feels that it will be a help in her eventual goals. She’s not moving lock step through a program, because she has/will have 5 1/2 years to complete a program that can be completed in 2. She went back and forth on getting the AA af all and decided it because most of the classes that she needs to tick high school boxes for eventual college applications down the road fit into the AA anyway, either as general studies or electives. She will have far more credits in many areas than the AA requires, but that’s Ok.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that it’s college. Not high school, not middle school. It takes a certain level of executive functioning to handle that setting. (My 19 yr old bonus kid was in panic because she hadn’t read the syllabus and missed turning in an assignment. My 12, and now 13 yr old, has not had that happen because she is good at managing that kind of stuff on her own, and that’s just one example). The difficulty of courses is often not what determines success or failure for a 18-19 yr old, and that’s even more the case for a 12-14 yr old.

 

Basically, she needed to go to school for social and emotional reasons, and the college offered much more flexibility and freedom to her to fulfill her needs and goals. I don’t care if anything transfers. In fact, I’d be pretty happy if nothing does, which is why I’ve encouraged her to do the psych AA if she wants to do it and to take lots of fun extra classes, rather than pushing towards her biology degree ASAP (especially since she wants EECB, and the school she is currently attending is mostly pushing out nurses, radiologists, and future pharmacists and doctors).

 

Theee is no one size fits all. I never expected we’d be on this route until we were.

 

The bolded x1000.  It's not just about being smart or talented.  It's as much about maturity and being able to juggle responsibilities that carry real consequences.

 

My 14 yo took an art class at the CC that she was well qualified for in terms of skill.  She'd reached her limit to what I felt she could learn on her own or with typical age-based art classes and was jonesing for a classroom experience so off to the CC we went.

 

Overall it was a very positive experience.  Her teacher was amazing.  She started off strong, but the thing that about killed her midway through was the EF stuff like keeping up with the syllabus and dragging herself out of bed for an 8:00 class.  She did very well in the class, but the points she DID lose were almost all related to EF stuff.  

Edited January 29, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[EliseMcKenna]

Higher starting salary is great and engineering is worth it if you love it but if you want money, all you have to do is focus on money and be persistent. It doesn't require 6 or more years of education. Persistence and connections will also do.

 

I totally agree. But an accompanying sense of prestige might prompt some people to want a professional degree along with high pay. I know a couple who totally fit that description. My impression is that their titles are every bit as important to them as their salaries. 

 

I wonder about the importance of prestige to the author of this book. He does say that a trade school would have been acceptable, if any of the children had selected that route, because that would have led to a paying profession. So was it the familiar route that led all the children to the same outcomes? General expectations within the family? Or was it more sinister than that? Would the kids feel like outcasts as the only mechanic in a family of advanced degrees? 

 

By the way, we live in Lake Stevens. Hi!

[Tsuga]

I totally agree. But an accompanying sense of prestige might prompt some people to want a professional degree along with high pay. I know a couple who totally fit that description. My impression is that their titles are every bit as important to them as their salaries.

 

I wonder about the importance of prestige to the author of this book. He does say that a trade school would have been acceptable, if any of the children had selected that route, because that would have led to a paying profession. So was it the familiar route that led all the children to the same outcomes? General expectations within the family? Or was it more sinister than that? Would the kids feel like outcasts as the only mechanic in a family of advanced degrees?

 

By the way, we live in Lake Stevens. Hi!

Oh hi!

 

And yes, prestige means a lot to people. But the book in question doesn't suggest that that is something a young adult should work through as a personal decision. Instead they seem to take it as a universal value, so universal that they would have their children make a substantial sacrifice to achieve without giving them a choice.

 

And again I am really pro-dual enrollment. This whole thing just reeks of extreme parenting, extreme pressure when the reality is you can have an amazing life and achievements without having to decide on a high powered career at 14.

 

If you want to? Awesome! But this is not a book about profoundly gifted and extremely motivated kids and that journey. It is about "look at what we made and how awesome it is! Everyone should do it!"

Edited January 28, 2018 by Tsuga

[maize]

Snippet I agree with (referencing a math professor the parents both studied under):

 

"Our experiences in his classes solidified our belief that math needed to be taught by someone who loved and understood the subject. We did not see that love of math in any of our former high school colleagues in the education department."

 

This is certainly an issue in the public education system.

[Ad astra]

Fascinating discussion! For those who are interested in reading this book, you can borrow it for free through the lending library if you're an Amazon Prime member. Just downloaded mine and excited to read! 

 

I think there is no right answer for this. Each kid/family is different. I personally wouldn't want early college for my own kids because I'd like them to take time to mature and prepare for a more selective university like some of you mentioned. But  I do enjoy reading and learning from other people's experiences even though they don't agree with my perspective. (Even the Swann's story mentioned above!) It seems this method has worked for the author's family and I appreciate him for sharing his homeschooling journey in detail as well as many experienced homeschoolers who do the same thing on this forum. I take these accounts as a memoir or personal essay rather than a bible or guidebook that everyone should follow. I wish there were more books on a family's educational journey like this available in the States because I haven't found many as I do in my home country. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Moon

[wapiti]

" As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited."

 

 

I just want to go back to this quote for a moment.  For people who are up to their ears in math, it's odd that they'd be so wrong about career options with a math degree that don't involve academia, and that's been bothering me.  But it just occurred to me that perhaps, even with their child's brilliance, completing an undergrad math degree by age 18 might have been a bridge too far, just not possible?  And accordingly, disproving their method?

[kiana]

I just want to go back to this quote for a moment.  For people who are up to their ears in math, it's odd that they'd be so wrong about career options with a math degree that don't involve academia, and that's been bothering me.  But it just occurred to me that perhaps, even with their child's brilliance, completing an undergrad math degree by age 18 might have been a bridge too far, just not possible?  And accordingly, disproving their method?

 

I think that they were more interested in something with a defined career trajectory. Math has loads of options but not a "Oh, you are in math, you do ___" like engineering often does. 

 

Although frankly, if a kid of mine were interested in math *right now* I'd recommend taking some probability/statistics and programming if possible; that would set them up for actuarial science (which does have a pretty defined career) or data science (which is pretty hot right now), but they'd also be perfectly well prepared to go to graduate school in pure mathematics if they wanted to. A lot of math majors also end up working in computers, and frankly I really wish I'd taken more programming myself.

 

I still regret listening to my first advisor when he talked me into taking programming for math majors instead of C++. 

[wapiti]

I think that they were more interested in something with a defined career trajectory. Math has loads of options but not a "Oh, you are in math, you do ___" like engineering often does. 

 

That could be part of it.  If that's their rationale, then I'd say their education and career advice is limiting and backward-looking; so last century.

[nixpix5]

This quote at the beginning irks me:

 

"Our children’s consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

There are so many factors--starting with shared genes--that enter the equation.

 

The educational environment is one of them.

 

I'm impressed by these kids and their accomplishments, I'm glad the parents are sharing their path.

 

And I can guarantee they could have started with a totally different set of kids, set out the same way, and ended up in an entirely different place.

He also said that they know their system won't work for everyone. I think part of this particular quote is probably due in part to being slightly defensive. It seems, reading between the lines near the beginning, that they have probably heard comments alot about pushing too hard and so forth. There is always an assumption that if someone does something a bit unorthodox and has success, there must be a catch.

 

I have experienced this with my child with ASD. I chose not to go the therapy route and dropped all therapy early on. I saw it having a negative effect and with my educational training and experience, I decided to use him as a bit of a guinea pig to try so theories that I had about ASD. I decided to homeschool and "treat" him in the way I saw fit. This was a child that was pretty severe. Now he is social, speaking, reading, writing above grade level. When I tell people now he has ASD they always assume he was misdiagnosed. People who knew him before are floored but when they hear how I chose to do it they bristle. If you saw him you probably wouldn't know of his diagnosis at this point. It does make me frustrated and defensive when I see kids who are just like he was and I get comments like "my child could never do that because your son is higher functioning" and so forth.

 

So when I read this book I saw passionate parents who wanted to share their path and I feel did so without ego. Reading the whole book provided me a much more loving and supportive picture of their choice and passion. I really enjoyed it. It isn't for me and not the way I chose to educate, but I definitely think it is cool and gave me alot to think about.

[katilac]

I mostly feel bad for the current 4-yr-old if she doesn't fit the mold. It reminds me of Dr. Sears, who talks about how proud he and wife were of the consistent results (not academic) they had due to their consistent parenting . . . until the fifth child came along, lol. 

 

And it's a bit disingenuous to say that it's all in the method. You obviously need a certain amount of innate horsepower to not only go to college early, but move on to John Hopkins, MIT, and so on. 

[ktgrok]

I hate the early specialization I see in the high schools (and middle schools!) here, in the USA. I hate tracking the kids that early, I think it is dumb. BUT...I think it is dumb mostly because no matter what magnet they go to for whatever specialization, they still have years and years to go before they can ACTUALLY have a career in it, so chances are they will change their mind. 

 

I can see how if you were going to actually move into that career at a younger age, it makes sense. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I kind of like the idea at least for some kids. I think we lose a LOT of bright, and especially the gifted, kids because they see all those years of what feels like pointless school ahead of them and just can't be bothered. I know I felt that way. My son is that way. A LOT of my husband's friends are that way. If school work seemed more relevant to their goals, and the pay off wasn't so very far in the future, I think a lot of them would have stayed the course and ended up with some amazing degrees/jobs. Instead, most dropped out of either high school or college. These are SMART, gifted people who just didn't fit the system. Some are now in their 30s and 40s getting their degree, but it/s a lot harder then!

 

I can say that for myself, had I been able to specialize a bit in high school and then become a veterinarian with only an undergrad degree I very likely would have done it. I just could't handle the idea of 8 more freaking years of school. And that was after leaving high school a year early to do early admission. I love to learn, and self educated while working in a veterinary office, and did eventually get a vet tech degree (that was 3 yrs of schooling) but again, so much harder as a single mom. 

 

Anyway, just musing on one of the rabbit trails. 

[shawthorne44]

Having been through that system, did it seem good or bad to you?  To me it sounds better than what I see going on around me for a lot of kids.  

 

I can give another first-person perspective, but not mine.   In high school, my best friend was a Swedish exchange student.   She was one a track that was in school for 13-years instead of 12, but at the end they could be an engineering tech.  She really liked their system.  I pined for that system.  Our one-size-fits-all system irritated me even as a child.   Oh, and she'd found school incredibly easy and she was pretty average.  

[Dmmetler]

One thought that hit me this morning is that really early graduation/full-time college, as opposed to dual or concurrent enrollment and admission via placement test scores/proof of benefit takes a level of nerve that I don’t possess. Because a kid who has gotten to the point where they can graduate and apply for colleges isn’tnecessarily going to thrive there. A decent number of 18 yr olds don’t, after all. But an 18 yr old can work. What does the early teens high school graduate do if college ends up being a poor fit right now? This culture really isn’t set up for adolescents to not be in school.

 

Dual enrollment/concurrent enrollment....well, they can always go back to homeschooling, or even a BM high school.

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read the book either.

 

Anyway, as far as college at 14 and graduating by 19.  I think I have mixed feelings.

 

I think we tend to conflate university educations in the more traditional sense with career training, and that makes for weird blind spots.

 

I'm ok with kids finishing their formal education and going out to work at 19.  There are lots of kids who IMO should do that and making them sit around in classes is to only frustrating, I think it can eat away at their agency and initiative and keep them from maturing.Those personalities really tend to gain a lot from being self-supporting and contributing community members.

 

We tend to accept this with things like trade school education.

 

Given that many people going to university will actually essentially be studying a trade - practical job directed learning - I'm not sure I see a difference.  If they can actually learn th material and handle the pace, why not?

 

The only thing I would say is I think those kids should still have had access to a good basic education directed to feeding the mind.

 

In terms of more traditional types of university education where it's more about becoming part of an intellectual conversation, immersing oneself in the liberal arts - well, probably maturity is more a factor there.  Especially in some areas - even when you see kids who are prodigies and go to universities really young, they are more common in some subjects than others.  Math geniuses are likely to do their breakthrough work young - historians in their mature years.  

 

My sense is for that kind of education, it would be rarely ideal to send them to university so early.  To pursue high level work at home or even at a local institution might be good and necessary, but most universities that are going to get very talented students can manage to teach them at the level they need in a way a high school can't always - so a high level of background is not a big problem.  

[Lori D.]

.... So when I read this book I saw passionate parents who wanted to share their path and I feel did so without ego. Reading the whole book provided me a much more loving and supportive picture of their choice and passion. I really enjoyed it. It isn't for me and not the way I chose to educate, but I definitely think it is cool and gave me alot to think about.

 

Thanks for posting your review. I appreciate knowing the book is more about this, rather than my (uninformed by actually reading the book ;) ) reaction that it was a one-size fits all homeschooling "program". :)

 

And, totally agreeing with you that it's not my path for education or homeschooling the children I have. Nor do I agree with their idea about limited their DC's choices to "only" college majors of what *they* deemed to be "financially viable" jobs, BUT... different strokes for different folks. :)

Edited January 29, 2018 by Lori D.

[HS Mom in NC]

Maybe someone from AZ can chime in. The kids ALL started at community college in Mesa, AZ, then continued at ASU.

 

The oldest went on to medical school, next oldest completed a master's degree in bioengineering at Johns Hopkins University at age 19, and now is in his fifth year of a PhD program at MIT. Third and fourth children, medical school. Fifth is in a PhD program in electrical engineering at MIT. Sixth is studying chemical engineering and plans to study medicine.

This is nothing to be impressed about.  My older two attended that cc college system one city over at 15 and 17.  They're not geniuses either. It's the equivalent of taking an AP class at the local ps.  It's in the largest homeschooling community in the US, so there are tons of homeschooled kids doing exactly the same thing, they're just not bragging in a book about it.  It's incredibly common here.  I have close friends whose homeschooled kids started in that cc (Mesa and in Gilbert) who got full ride academic scholarships to Stanford (med school) and Emerson.  Most of the kids who start there go on to the state universities just like the kids from ps and private schools.  

 

It's a good option for studious kids just like AP classes are a good fit for studious kids in high school.  The only difference is that the kids at cc need the emotional maturity to handle adult academic content in an adult environment and time management skills.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I never found the pace of US college/ university classes to be conducive to real in depth learning.  It encourages a "cram it in, vomit it out for the test and then forget it" learning style.  At least that was my personal experience.  I was always envious of the British tutoring system at some place like Oxford. 

[homemommy83]

​​My oldest son and I were discussing this thread, and I asked him what he would love to do with his life/ what careers seem interesting.  His reply made me go "what in the world' in my head not orally LOL.  Evidently he doesn't care what he does- and WANTS ME TO CHOOSE FOR HIM, AS HE SAID HE LOVES ALL SUBJECTS/ FIELDS so he would be happy doing just about anything.  I told him that I wasn't being responsible for his "change of heart" down the road, and that he does need to be thinking on what 2 or 3 things he would like to focus more on in college (this boy is definitely college bound) and then HE can make a decision in a couple years.  

 

I do discuss that college is where we study to do the career we desire, and that yes it needs to be one that makes more than minimum wage, but he could definitely double up if he loved a nonpaying field while there.

 

We give our children a very broad education so that they can do anything that they are called to do, whether that includes college or not.

 

Below are the things that I told him.

 

1. Do  think about what you  feel called to to do with your life.  Everyone here has a purpose, and I believe that you are happiest when doing your calling.

 

2.  Once somethings are on your heart- I would major in the one that gives better employment opportunities, and minor in all that you can while you are there in the other interest that you have.  We are going to get many of the Freshman type courses out of the way through Community College so he can still spend 4 years on his degrees- thus allowing more variety to his class loads each semester.

 

3.  Work very hard in English, Math, and Science as those will give him more opportunities down the road no matter what he chooses to study.

 

Brenda

 

[Pen]

I never found the pace of US college/ university classes to be conducive to real in depth learning.  It encourages a "cram it in, vomit it out for the test and then forget it" learning style.  At least that was my personal experience.  I was always envious of the British tutoring system at some place like Oxford. 

 

 

I know someone (American) who went to work directly out of high school, and then at around age 60 retired and went to Oxford to study and totally loved it. Then went into a new career in a more literary and philosophical area.  He thought that he got even more out of his later Oxford experience since he was mature enough to appreciate it.

 

The younger people I know who went to Oxford or Cambridge either full time or as a short term experience abroad also loved that.

 

[Pen]

​​My oldest son and I were discussing this thread, and I asked him what he would love to do with his life/ what careers seem interesting.  His reply made me go "what in the world' in my head not orally LOL.  Evidently he doesn't care what he does- and WANTS ME TO CHOOSE FOR HIM, AS HE SAID HE LOVES ALL SUBJECTS/ FIELDS so he would be happy doing just about anything. 

 

 

WOW!  

 

My kid is not like that!  1) He wants to be his own boss; 2) He does not love all subjects / fields.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Lots of kids (even in countries with tracking) have no firm idea about what they want to do - sometimes even in the early college years. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Like I said upthread mine were 15 and 17 when they started at that cc. We didn't pick for them, but we told them they'd have to pay or get loans for anything after cc, and to keep in mind that those loans needed to be an investment that kept them self-supporting, otherwise they could ruin them financially.  They need some sort of marketable skills so they can feed themselves, but that a marketable college degree isn't the only way to do that. Not every interest brings in income-some are just hobbies.

 

We didn't want to teach Calculus and lab sciences, and that's what they needed at that time, and it was 15 minutes away.  Being so young we told them to try different things and take their time, not to get locked into anything right away. The 15 year old has tested into the engineering program, but I wouldn't let her sign up for it because I didn't want her locked into it from the start.  Instead I told her to take a few of the classes that would be part of the engineering program and see how she liked them along with other things that interested her.  She was math and science heavy for the first year and a half, at the top of the classes, and enjoyed them but then she realized she couldn't see herself doing that every day as a career.  So the next semester she started taking business classes and loved them. She spent 3 years getting her AA because of it, and it was time and money well spent. 

She got her AA at 18 she wasn't sure what kind of business focus she wanted to do, so she hired on as a temp at an agency that places office workers and work for a while at different places while she figured it out.   That gave her the opportunity to get some real work perspective before choosing and investing university prices.  She got hired on at a construction company's new branch office doing data entry and clerical work and processing insurance paperwork. Full-time work, self-supporting salary and full health benefits.  They wanted to train her as a project manager because she's so good at keeping track of large amounts of information that changes without letting details fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately the company had problems with poor management and an owner that didn't know how to go from a small company to a medium sized one, so when they asked her to look into their turnover rates, she saw the writing on the wall and looked for work elsewhere.  It's a good year of experience on her resume.

Now she works for a company that refurbishes airplanes and she's handling data entry, fulfilling orders and is doing some other training since she recently started there.  She makes almost the national average income with full benefits; not bad for 20 year old.  We're relocating this summer and she and her soon to be husband will relocate with us.  She's glad to have the work experience and will have the option of going back to school (they're not planning on having kids) or continuing to work. 

Oldest did 2 semesters of different things at cc, but had always had an interest in doula work.  Like we told her, young, unmarried, without kids, you have the time to try different things.  She did very well in all her classes.  One day her art history teacher asked her where she had gone to school K-12 and when she heard she had been homeschooled by mom in everything but math and science, which dad taught, the teacher old her, "Go home and tell your mother congratulations.  You're the best educated freshman I've seen so far."  That's Story of the World, art, Greenleaf Guides, and literature, and reading widely aloud and independently, and the like that payed off.

After a year she decided to pursue doula certification. She does professional birth and postpartum support and started her own business.  She absolutely loves it. She got hired on with a start up agency for which she was paid to ghost write some articles.  The woman starting the agency has had a major medical issue which has caused it to not launch yet.  Meanwhile oldest is taking her childbirth educator exams.  In the future she'd like to teach hospital childbirth classes.  She and her fiance will relocate with us too because there are several agencies she could work for where we're going and she could teach hospital or private classes. (Before anyone says no one should hired someone who hasn't given birth to work in the birth industry, we would tell you people who haven given birth have biases toward their preferred type of birth, and those who didn't get what they wanted often become birth workers to right the wrongs of the past.  And people with kids need back up more often because they can't be on call as much.)   Was her time at cc a waste?  Not at all.  We could afford it out of pocket (we didn't need to compete for scholarship intended for financially challenged students) and she was able to see that being a professor of creative writing wasn't really what she thought it would be.

A year after she left cc her creative writing teacher entered her in a contest among students in that cc system with something she wrote in class the year before.  She won even though she wasn't enrolled, but refused to take the award or do the reading aloud at an event because it was just an assignment, not what she really wanted to write about, and it wasn't fair to be entered when she was no longer enrolled, so writing may still be in her future.  Like I said, she's been paid to do it already on a topic she loves, so it's nice feedback from the teacher and from doula community. 

There are many paths to success.  It's important to keep that in mind and to remind your children of it through your own actions and deeds.

[nixpix5]

What AZ said here is pretty solid advice.

 

"There are many paths to success. It's important to keep that in mind and to remind your children of it through your own actions and deeds"

 

 

I think we get quick to judge others' choices that seem so far removed from our own. Some people bristle at a 6th grader doing advanced math but don't bat an eye assigning The Iliad. I think we have a tendency in America especially to view math and science as scary/hard and LA as worth exposing and progressing children through. Many of us had poor math and science training in our schooling but if parents have passion and can make it interesting and fun, why not?

 

Also, young people have had varying levels of maturity through history. Some kids went into the family business, some had careers chosen for them based on innate skill set or the blue collar job they happened to be able to get. Some chose military which also makes decisions for you based on many factors. I think a loving parent who knows your affinities and cares about your future isn't the worst type of choosing.

 

It also would have felt different had they been choosing their paths at 18. They weren't. Most of us choose our 14 year olds path for them. At 14 some kids don't even want to go to school. We tell them they have to. If they have progressed academically far beyond their same age peers then I don't see any benefit of them being in a 9-12 setting.

 

Again, not my choice for my kids but I have seen some pretty amazing families due some interesting things that went well.

[...................]

I think;

1. Anytime there’s a book saying this is the best way, the only way, for all (normal) kids even in their own family, I shake my head. Having a lock step mentality isn’t good in any child rearing book!!

 

2. I do agree that our system seems to stretch it out too much! My own kids will go early to community college. One seemed ready at 15, the other might be closer to 17. While I don’t understand the reason for the “rush†I do feel that many of the most productive energetic years are wasted repeating numerous subjects, when the kids are ready to contribute to the real world.

 

Prolonging and prolonging marriage and family is also having a negative effect ...

 

But I would say people need to Chart each child’s course totally individually !

 

:)

[...................]

of course in an ideal world with an ideal high school and ideal situation I wonder if my son may have enjoyed brick and mortar high school, ideals don’t exist and with the situation we have, so far early CC has been a really fun and enriching Interesting and cost effective solution for my very bright, focused and mature teen!

[luuknam]

Lots of kids (even in countries with tracking) have no firm idea about what they want to do - sometimes even in the early college years. 

 

There are also plenty who still don't have a firm idea after plenty of years of college, switching majors a bunch of times, and being in their mid-30s.  :banghead:

 

One thought that hit me this morning is that really early graduation/full-time college, as opposed to dual or concurrent enrollment and admission via placement test scores/proof of benefit takes a level of nerve that I don’t possess. Because a kid who has gotten to the point where they can graduate and apply for colleges isn’tnecessarily going to thrive there. A decent number of 18 yr olds don’t, after all. But an 18 yr old can work. What does the early teens high school graduate do if college ends up being a poor fit right now? This culture really isn’t set up for adolescents to not be in school.

 

Dual enrollment/concurrent enrollment....well, they can always go back to homeschooling, or even a BM high school.

 

 

Nixpix mentioned that teens often used to work in the family business. Obviously that's not a realistic option for most people, but doing something entrepreneurial is an option for some kids in their mid-teens (so long as they have an adult who is willing to deal with the legal contracts, or can somehow get a judge to emancipate them). Also, you *could* just go back to homeschooling them... it just wouldn't be high school, but you could fill the days with the same things you'd be filling the days with otherwise, no?

 

Realistically, I think this is a big part of the "seeing college as high school" the authors have. If the kid doesn't like it, well, too bad - it's not like you'd let your 15yo drop out of high school if they didn't like it either (well, most people wouldn't). I guess the only difference is that the college can kick your kid out for having a low GPA, and a public high school can't. 

[Arcadia]

Due to the online college degrees thread (http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/667695-online-college-degrees/), I check the requirements and costs of ASU online degree. It’s actually cheaper per year than the cheapest private high school here.

 

For the online bachelor of science in software engineering degree (random selection)

“Your estimated full-time tuition and fees (12 hours per semester) for the academic year is:

$15,038

 

Requirements

 

Freshman Admission:

 

Minimum 1210 SAT combined evidence-based reading and writing plus math score (or 1140 if taken prior to March 5, 2016) or minimum 24 ACT combined score; or 3.00 minimum ABOR GPA; or class ranking in top 25 percent of high school class, and

Admission may be granted with one deficiency in no more than two competency areas. Deficiencies in both math and science are not acceptable.†https://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-programs/undergraduate/bachelor-science-software-engineering

 

It would probably be cheaper to do two years at Mesa Community College and transfer. Mesa’s estimated cost of attendence which include an estimate of $2,772 for room and board while staying with parents is $12,598 per academic year.

[...................]

Wait what, — community college here in CA is not 12k, or even 10K. Including books and tuition and even parking fees for 24 credits we will only have paid about 2400.00

[Mabelen]

The co-chosen major part is definitely very common in certain ethnic/cultural groups. My dh remembers a saying from his home country that was like "doctor, proctor, accountant, engineer" meaning those were the professions strongly favored by parents. In countries where arranged marriages are the norm, one's profession is an extremely important part of the deal. One of my Indian friends was just telling me recently that, when it was time for her parents to look for a husband for her and her sister, all of the top candidates were looking for brides with computer science degrees. Her sister had a masters in a social science, and she had a masters in biology (not going into medicine). Apparently, it was slim pickings for them. She faired a lot better than her sister, despite her sister being prettier and more social than herself, because she had a good job and had demonstrated good earning power unlike her sister.

[daijobu]

One of my Indian friends was just telling me recently that, when it was time for her parents to look for a husband for her and her sister, all of the top candidates were looking for brides with computer science degrees. Her sister had a masters in a social science, and she had a masters in biology (not going into medicine). Apparently, it was slim pickings for them. She faired a lot better than her sister, despite her sister being prettier and more social than herself, because she had a good job and had demonstrated good earning power unlike her sister.

 

I'm only half kidding when I say that isn't it refreshing when a woman is valued for her earning power?  

[Mabelen]

I'm only half kidding when I say that isn't it refreshing when a woman is valued for her earning power?

Haha. But only after the horoscopes and everything else matches!

[Dmmetler]

There are also plenty who still don't have a firm idea after plenty of years of college, switching majors a bunch of times, and being in their mid-30s.  :banghead:

 

 

 

Nixpix mentioned that teens often used to work in the family business. Obviously that's not a realistic option for most people, but doing something entrepreneurial is an option for some kids in their mid-teens (so long as they have an adult who is willing to deal with the legal contracts, or can somehow get a judge to emancipate them). Also, you *could* just go back to homeschooling them... it just wouldn't be high school, but you could fill the days with the same things you'd be filling the days with otherwise, no?

 

Realistically, I think this is a big part of the "seeing college as high school" the authors have. If the kid doesn't like it, well, too bad - it's not like you'd let your 15yo drop out of high school if they didn't like it either (well, most people wouldn't). I guess the only difference is that the college can kick your kid out for having a low GPA, and a public high school can't. 

 

There's another big difference-your kid can drop out of college, change their major or stop going to classes, and you won't know until and unless the grades come out-and even then, you only have access to your child's grades through them. I've known a few parents who have had DE high school students realize no one was checking up on them and basically spend the semester hanging out on campus during their class, getting away with it until the college reported the grade to the high school. Colleges do not care if your child is 15 or 19, or even 12. The agreement and relationship is between the student and the college faculty and staff. The parent, even if they're paying the bills, is out of it. When your child is in K-12, you have the force of the school system and the truancy laws behind you, even if you never have any need or desire to use them. Not so once your child has graduated.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Dmmetler2

[G5052]

For the right kid, it can be a great thing. For a kid not quite ready, it can be very deflating though.

 

There was a family locally who had theirs finish an associate's by age 16-18  with all of their kids and went around to the various homeschooling groups telling people how wonderful it was. As a professor, I cringed though. I taught several of their kids, and the mom was HIGHLY involved in all of their college work until the last semester or so. I guess that's one of way of doing it, but that family was infamous in the faculty lounge because of that. When you got a student from the M family, be ready. Make sure you know the rules on parents interacting with a professor, calling you at home, etc. etc.

 

I've also taught dual enrollment kids who were not ready for dual enrollment. In some semesters, more homeschooled students failed percentage-wise than students from the public and private classrooms. Now they have rules about how many and which dual enrollment classes can be taken the first semester. Before that rule, I would hear from 2-3 parents each semester who knew me and were upset that their homeschooled dual enrollment student had just failed several college classes because they got overwhelmed.  

 

Don't get me wrong. When mine did dual enrollment, I started them with one class in an area of strength and helped them get organized and asked to see their grades periodically at first, but they had to email the professor, go to office hours, etc. The only time I ever interacted with a professor was when I got a phone call in the adjunct office and used my name, and my son's English professor happened to overhear me and introduced herself.

 

Dual enrollment is a great way to get more advanced courses for the student who is ready for them, but not for every student, and not every student should finish a degree.

[G5052]

There's another big difference-your kid can drop out of college, change their major or stop going to classes, and you won't know until and unless the grades come out-and even then, you only have access to your child's grades through them. I've known a few parents who have had DE high school students realize no one was checking up on them and basically spend the semester hanging out on campus during their class, getting away with it until the college reported the grade to the high school. Colleges do not care if your child is 15 or 19, or even 12. The agreement and relationship is between the student and the college faculty and staff. The parent, even if they're paying the bills, is out of it. When your child is in K-12, you have the force of the school system and the truancy laws behind you, even if you never have any need or desire to use them. Not so once your child has graduated.

 

A lady I somewhat knew from a homeschooling group some years back enrolled her son in one of my classes. I would be walking up to the building from the parking lot, and she'd waive to me from the drop-off circle as she dropped him off for class. He'd usually go in before me and disappear. 

 

He pretty much only came when there was an exam and didn't pass the class. I felt bad, but professors don't communicate with parents unless they initiate it, and there are rules about signing releases, what you can say, etc.

 

Some time later I ran into her, and she was very apologetic. They had no idea what was going on until she saw a letter come for him from the college, and she demanded to see it. He had been put on probation for a low GPA.

Edited January 30, 2018 by G5052

[Pen]

Wait what, — community college here in CA is not 12k, or even 10K. Including books and tuition and even parking fees for 24 credits we will only have paid about 2400.00

 

 

Sounds like you have a good deal there!  Ours is around $8000 per year tuition + books and fees for instate student (est close to 16K if including room and board).

[...................]

How much per unit at your community college? More than $120? Our big name but not elite state I charges 150 per unit.

 

Well I guess that’ll be the one thing I like about CA other than the weather and hiking trails

[Jazzy]

I’m considering DE for my high schoolers and just ordered the book. In fairness to the authors, they say right up front in the preface or intro that this method is not for everyone, and they trust each homeschool family to find the right path.

[Kassia]

How much per unit at your community college? More than $120? Our big name but not elite state I charges 150 per unit.

 

Well I guess that’ll be the one thing I like about CA other than the weather and hiking trails

 

Our CC charges around $150/credit hour.

[luuknam]

There's another big difference-your kid can drop out of college, change their major or stop going to classes, and you won't know until and unless the grades come out-and even then, you only have access to your child's grades through them. I've known a few parents who have had DE high school students realize no one was checking up on them and basically spend the semester hanging out on campus during their class, getting away with it until the college reported the grade to the high school. Colleges do not care if your child is 15 or 19, or even 12. The agreement and relationship is between the student and the college faculty and staff. The parent, even if they're paying the bills, is out of it. When your child is in K-12, you have the force of the school system and the truancy laws behind you, even if you never have any need or desire to use them. Not so once your child has graduated.

 

 

I've read about some family (maybe it was the Brainy Bunch people) where mom or dad would take the college class with the kid, at least for the first (few) course(s). Also, online degrees, where it's easier to check up on your kid doing the work. More doable the fewer kids you have, but, it's not impossible to micromanage your kid's college work (assuming you have the time, money, etc). 

 

Not saying the above is desirable... just that there are workarounds to having to wait till the end of the semester to know whether your kid is doing the work and/or passing. 

[HS Mom in NC]

The reason oldest had to wait until 17 is because she wasn't read for college level math and she had a follow through problem when she wanted to start at age 14.

We did nothing for our kids other than what all the other parents of ps and private schooled kids would've done: attend the required parent and student orientation and attend the required minor student guidance counselor session. After the initial payment for classes we just issued them both a debt cards linked out our account that we put money in for school expenses so they could pay for classes, books, and anything school related. 

My kids were required to look online and make phone calls to find out:

1. When they could take the entrance exam.
2. When the deadline was for registering as new students.
3. When and how payment was to be made.
4. What types of AA degrees were offered and what classes were required for the ones they were interested in after they tested.
5. What possible schedules would look like. (They're not going to take the same classes and mom has to drive the 15 year old if their schedules don't overlap.)
6. Getting permission from the teachers as a minor student.
7. Learn how the website worked for registering, reading teacher reviews, finding information, turning things in.

We sat down and guided brain storms about what they would need to know and how they would need to proceed.  We had them write out lists with what needed to happen first and what would need to happen after that.  If they had seemed clueless we wouldn't have inflicted them on the cc.  We didn't have a complete hands off approach at first, we were just involved enough to help them through getting familiar with how the system worked when they enrolled. We have them the "this is bureaucracy" speech about how institutions make decisions for the whole, which means jumping though hoops that don't necessarily make sense for each individual, and complaining about it is a waste of time and energy.  Just do it.

We had absolutely nothing to do with their homework other than one time my middle asked me what I thought the teacher meant by one thing in one English paper half way through the year.  They handled meeting their own deadlines and meeting with a teacher now and then if they had a question that wasn't asked in class.  They participated in class discussions regularly. How did we know?  Well, they chattered about school when we ate dinner-what was talked about which group members were easier to work with than others, the kids that were just taking up space and the kids that were engaged, the teachers' teaching styles and expectations, what they were reading, the assignments, etc.

Kids who aren't able to do that shouldn't be involved in adult education.  They just shouldn't. 

[vonfirmath]

I have not read the book, but my brother graduated from college at seventeen. My parents did not push him at all. In fact, they were kind of asleep. When my brother was a freshman in high school a teacher noticed he was bright, recommended going to the university for some classes, and the university just absorbed him into their system. He excelled in this environment academically but had no social life. 

 

While he was in graduate school he had a bit of an awakening (Friendships! Love!) and felt that lots of really bright people went to high school, and he could have been academically stimulated while still getting to be a kid. He felt that he missed childhood, missed being able to make mistakes, to develop, to play sports, to have a girlfriend, etc. Even though I always felt that I lived in his shadow (the average little sister of the exceptional older brother), he told me many times as an adult that he envied my much more rambling pathway to adulthood. 

 

Obviously this isn't the experience of every person who goes to college young, and it's not the same as taking a few classes at the community college, but I think it's worth remembering that there is no hurry and there are important ways that adolescents are developing that are not academic. 

 

My husband entered college the year he should have gone to 7th grade. (Robinson Scholars program).  He did not graduate early because he went off the rails and finally got graduated after he met me and he decided he wasn't going to get married until he had a college degree (So he graduated at age 23)..  He does feel he missed out on having peers and does NOT think this was a great choice. The one chance we had to accelerate our son, we mutually decided not to do so. He's in an advanced program with same age peers, but he is not being pushed forward.

 

(Though personally, I wonder how well he would have fit in on a HS campus if he was academically capable of college work -- which he was. His issues were maturity related, not doing the work.)

Edited January 31, 2018 by vonfirmath

[vonfirmath]

DUp.

Edited January 31, 2018 by vonfirmath

[fairfarmhand]

This quote at the beginning irks me:

 

"Our children’s consistency in attaining high goals confirms our belief that their educational environment made all the difference."

 

There are so many factors--starting with shared genes--that enter the equation.

 

The educational environment is one of them.

 

I'm impressed by these kids and their accomplishments, I'm glad the parents are sharing their path.

 

And I can guarantee they could have started with a totally different set of kids, set out the same way, and ended up in an entirely different place.

Yep.

 

My oldest is quite smart. She does extremely well in school. However, she definitely didn't have the emotional maturity to handle college level classes at 14 years old. Just couldn't handle the pressure. There would have been tears every day. While she had the intellectiual maturity above her years, the emotional maturity to handle a college pace would have overwhelmed her. Don't even want to start talking about the social maturity.

 

Also, books like these make me pause because they cause good homeschooling parents to doubt the validity of their path. Don't do that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an 18 year old graduating on a traditional timeline and attending college with other 18-19 year olds. It's OKAY! 

 

And even though their kids loved their path...keep in mind that these kids have nothing to which they can compare it to. As they get older and have their own kids, they will be able to see some of the flaws. No situation is perfect.