ATI questions

[fairfarmhand]

The whole Duggar thread has sort of become a discussion of ATI principles. I have some questions about the lifestyle.

 

First, what happens when women CAN'T have kids? Are they shunned? What happens if a woman can't have LOTS of kids due to reproductive issues? What happens when repeated pregnancies become a danger to mom? Are they still encourages to "trust the Lord?"

 

Would an infertile woman be required to do nothing but sit at home and watch the paint peel or would she be permitted to work outside the home?

 

Second, what happens when a woman is widowed? I shudder to think how ill prepared these sheltered, ill-educated women would be to take care of their (many) children.

 

What happens when a woman has all (or mostly) boys? Do the boys pitch in t o help her with her huge responsibilities? Or are they not allowed to do such things because they are male? (I'm referring to the strict gender roles in this group.) What happens when a woman has all girls? Are the allowed to work in the family business?

 

How common is depression/suicide in this group? I think I would be seriously depressed in this lifestyle.

 

Anyone else know the answers?

 

(I know I could look them up on some of the websites, but it seriously breaks my heart to read of first-person accounts of such awful lives)

 

I know every family is going to be different; I'm just wondering about the above instances "in general."

[FaithManor]

That depends on the family and how close they follow the teaching. Gothard himself is of the opinion that all reproductive issues are related to sin and spirituality, demon warfare, etc.

 

He believes that fasting, prayer, and abstinence - abiding faith - cures infertility and reproductive problems. He believes that women need C-sections because of demonic things in the home - cabbage patch dolls, troll dolls, barbies, adopted children for whom the "sins of the fathers have been visited down from generation to generation" and haven't been properly exorcised, etc. - and that clearing the spiritual walls will allow the birth to proceed normally.

 

Now that said, apparently Jimscum likes Michelle enough that he was willing for her to have medically assisted births as well as C-sections when necessary.

 

In terms of fertility, what I've seen within the local ATI community is that while they will give some lip service to "this must be God's will", but in reality since the more children a woman has within the more stringent ATI followers the more "holy" she is, the women tend to form a pecking order in which women with few or no children are on the bottom and pretty badly despised. A friend of mine whose husband was raised ATI but left that movement lost five babies to miscarriages at around 12 weeks, then had a long period of being unable to get pregnant, and then lost a set of twins at 21 weeks, and then finally with in vitro were able to have their daughter who is now 10 years of age. His family, still in ATI, shunned them "leaving the faith", and then had them declared apostate in the house church because of "hidden sin that causes them to not be blessed with children", and further apostate for engaging in fertility treatment instead of cleansing themselves of sin and waiting on the Lord.

 

Whether or not it plays out like that in every ATI community is hard to say. People can be so individual. If they follow Gothard's faith tenets strictly, then it is likely that a woman unable to have or undesiring of many children would feel derision.

 

Widowed women need to come under the umbrella of a male right away. So, if she does not have a widower on the line offering marriage right away, it is expected that her father, brother, or uncle take her in and provide for her and dependents if she has them. If she does not have ATI male relatives, she is really up a creek unless her other male relatives are willing to help, and she leaves the sect.

 

Depression? Hard to say because ATI sees that as a spiritual issue and shuns mental health services. ATI people are not going to admit they have depression. However, judging by the blog posts of survivors who have left the cult, I would say that may people are clinically depressed trying to keep up with all the rules, the judgmentalism, and keeping up appearances, depression could be very common.

 

Suicides? I really don't have any facts or figures.

[fairfarmhand]

How do these people read Biblical things like the book of Job and the martyrdom of the apostles? (proof that bad things happen when people are really in God's will)

[Katy]

Faith, what's your theory on Jessa & Ben's statement that they plan on adopting?

 

Do you think she's straying from ATI beliefs, or it's just something she's saying to try to distance themselves, and not having the intention of following through?

[FaithManor]

Gothard is not anti-adoption per se, he is adopt them and beat the devil out of them. In that respect, he's like the Pearls.

 

So, I don't think it is incongruous with the beliefs for them to want to adopt I hope and fervently pray that Jessa and Ben, if they do this, do not follow Gothard or Pearl ideas about the precious child.

[Onceuponatime]

I was not in the organization, just close to some families that were. Their influence contributed to a period of depression in my life when I was trying to be a "perfect" wife and mother. It's not all their fault, I am susceptible to wanting to do things "the right way." I just didn't recognize it as much then.

[FaithManor]

How do these people read Biblical things like the book of Job and the martyrdom of the apostles? (proof that bad things happen when people are really in God's will)

Well, I don't know about Job, but the one thing you never hear ole Billy Boy preaching on is the New Testatment. There is some occasional lip service about Jesus, but mostly the OT is his cup o tea. I think the New Testament is far too liberal for him!

[FaithManor]

I was not in the organization, just close to some families that were. Their influence contributed to a period of depression in my life when I was trying to be a "perfect" wife and mother. It's not all their fault, I am susceptible to wanting to do things "the right way." I just didn't recognize it as much then.

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  

[Guest]

I've been debating whether to bring this up, because I really dont feel an urgent need to dive into any cesspools, but I have it on good authority from normal, well trained conservative Christian pastors, who have nothing to do with ATI and are well respected in non-crazy circles, that Derick and Jill are very typical believers and have not modeled their faith or marriage off of Gothard at all. JB did talk with all the spouses of his daughters, but I just know too many real, non heretical Christians who have acquaintance with him to believe he only surrounds himself or approves of the ATI flavor of believer.

 

The Dillards have shown up at several conferences for one of these churches and been indistinguishable from everyone else there. These would run Reformed Baptist or general, traditional Christian. Nothing fundamental, anabaptist, AoG, etc.

 

I haven't seen any evidence of biblically inaccurate beliefs from the spouses, and judging by the latest conference Jill and Derick attended just a few weeks postpartum, they're sitting under fantastic and rock solid teaching.

 

Just a point of information.

[MyThreeSons]

When I was pregnant with son #2, we were involved in a heavily Gothard-influenced church. There were four of us who were pregnant at the same time, and we gave birth a few weeks apart. We all had our babies dedicated at the same church service, possibly Mother's Day. My folks were in town, and over lunch I mentioned to my Mom that two of the other babies were "reversal babies", and wasn't that cool. When I explained what that meant, my Mom was appalled that I even knew that about the conception of those babies. And she asked why spend all that money for reversal surgery that isn't guaranteed to work, when there are so many already-born kids waiting to be adopted. I didn't tell her about Gothard's teaching against adoption (for the most part). 

 

I am not close with those two families, since we moved across the country, but have been in touch via Facebook. Those babies are now 21 years old, and are the absolute delight of their parents. So much so that I feel as if the older siblings are slighted by the parents. I find it sad and weird. 

[Sk8ermaiden]

I've been debating whether to bring this up, because I really dont feel an urgent need to dive into any cesspools, but I have it on good authority from normal, well trained conservative Christian pastors, who have nothing to do with ATI and are well respected in non-crazy circles, that Derick and Jill are very typical believers and have not modeled their faith or marriage off of Gothard at all. JB did talk with all the spouses of his daughters, but I just know too many real, non heretical Christians who have acquaintance with him to believe he only surrounds himself or approves of the ATI flavor of believer.

 

The Dillards have shown up at several conferences for one of these churches and been indistinguishable from everyone else there. These would run Reformed Baptist or general, traditional Christian. Nothing fundamental, anabaptist, AoG, etc.

 

I haven't seen any evidence of biblically inaccurate beliefs from the spouses, and judging by the latest conference Jill and Derick attended just a few weeks postpartum, they're sitting under fantastic and rock solid teaching.

 

Just a point of information.

This is not surprising. Derek rent to a normal, secular college (and was the mascot even! and has danced!) and has a real job outside of small business owned by himself or someone in his direct church (which is the usual ATI way.) There has been a lot of talk that Jill would probably not be ATI in the long run. 

 

Anna and Ben are ATI. There are rumors that one of the Duggars is dating a Bates, also ATI. Derek squeaked in because he appealed to Jim Bob's almighty ego. I really think that's how it happened. :lol:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

When I was pregnant with son #2, we were involved in a heavily Gothard-influenced church. There were four of us who were pregnant at the same time, and we gave birth a few weeks apart. We all had our babies dedicated at the same church service, possibly Mother's Day. My folks were in town, and over lunch I mentioned to my Mom that two of the other babies were "reversal babies", and wasn't that cool. When I explained what that meant, my Mom was appalled that I even knew that about the conception of those babies. And she asked why spend all that money for reversal surgery that isn't guaranteed to work, when there are so many already-born kids waiting to be adopted. I didn't tell her about Gothard's teaching against adoption (for the most part). 

 

I am not close with those two families, since we moved across the country, but have been in touch via Facebook. Those babies are now 21 years old, and are the absolute delight of their parents. So much so that I feel as if the older siblings are slighted by the parents. I find it sad and weird. 

 

I hope you know that non-Gothardites sometimes have tubal or vas reversals and subsequent pregnancies for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or quiverfull or any of that.

 

I hope you also know that people have reasons for not adopting instead of attempting reversal that have nothing to do with Gothard, and are not about being unable or unwilling to love and raise adopted children.

[redsquirrel]

The whole Duggar thread has sort of become a discussion of ATI principles. I have some questions about the lifestyle.

 

First, what happens when women CAN'T have kids? Are they shunned? What happens if a woman can't have LOTS of kids due to reproductive issues? What happens when repeated pregnancies become a danger to mom? Are they still encourages to "trust the Lord?"

 

Would an infertile woman be required to do nothing but sit at home and watch the paint peel or would she be permitted to work outside the home?

 

Second, what happens when a woman is widowed? I shudder to think how ill prepared these sheltered, ill-educated women would be to take care of their (many) children.

 

What happens when a woman has all (or mostly) boys? Do the boys pitch in t o help her with her huge responsibilities? Or are they not allowed to do such things because they are male? (I'm referring to the strict gender roles in this group.) What happens when a woman has all girls? Are the allowed to work in the family business?

 

How common is depression/suicide in this group? I think I would be seriously depressed in this lifestyle.

 

Anyone else know the answers?

 

(I know I could look them up on some of the websites, but it seriously breaks my heart to read of first-person accounts of such awful lives)

 

I know every family is going to be different; I'm just wondering about the above instances "in general."

 

Was Andrea Yates ATI, or 'just' quiverfull?

[DawnM]

Was Andrea Yates ATI, or 'just' quiverfull?

 

She followed someone named Michael Woroniecki.

[J-rap]

We have very close friends who followed Gothard thoroughly.  They even worked at his organization.  They live states away from us though, so we may be missing stuff.  But apart from them, I have no knowledge of Gothard.  This family is the most fun, hilarious, non-legalistic family....  So all of this Gothard/ATI stuff I am hearing about is confusing to me.  Again, I have no reference at all to Gothard and his organization except through them.  They are a half generation off from us.  That is, the parents are a half generation older, and the children are a half generation younger.  They worked for his organization in the states and abroad.  They homeschooled using his curriculum. 

 

They have their own (very successful) business, and the daughter basically runs it.  (She is very intelligent and speaks and writes very articulately.)   She and her husband have not been able to have children, though they have tried for years.  It has been sad for her, but they've accepted it and moved on.  They are a very balanced, fun, happy, close-knit family, and they all take part in their business. 

 

We've been at gatherings with them (yearly), and the men cook and take care of the children as well as the women.  They are probably one of the most balanced, happiest families I have ever known.  The daughter who has not had children is not shunned or made to feel less than the others;  she has a great job and loves her nieces and nephews.  I haven't talked much to them about all that has gone on with Gothard, except to know that they are extremely disappointed.

 

I'm not saying this in support of his organization.  But they were a family entrenched in it and yet are...normal.  Kind of confusing.  Our family would be considered a pretty darn liberal progressive branch of Christians, and yet we have only super fun, hilarious memories of times spent with them.  They are all comedians.

[ktgrok]

Remember, one of the main teachings is to present a "joyful countenance". You HAVE to be happy and fun and hosptiable. Nothing else is allowed. Period. No matter how upset you might be about, say, infertility, you HAVE to accept it graciously and act like things are fine. Period. No depression/sadness/anger/bitterness is allowed. 

[Katy]

I've been debating whether to bring this up, because I really dont feel an urgent need to dive into any cesspools, but I have it on good authority from normal, well trained conservative Christian pastors, who have nothing to do with ATI and are well respected in non-crazy circles, that Derick and Jill are very typical believers and have not modeled their faith or marriage off of Gothard at all. JB did talk with all the spouses of his daughters, but I just know too many real, non heretical Christians who have acquaintance with him to believe he only surrounds himself or approves of the ATI flavor of believer.

 

The Dillards have shown up at several conferences for one of these churches and been indistinguishable from everyone else there. These would run Reformed Baptist or general, traditional Christian. Nothing fundamental, anabaptist, AoG, etc.

 

I haven't seen any evidence of biblically inaccurate beliefs from the spouses, and judging by the latest conference Jill and Derick attended just a few weeks postpartum, they're sitting under fantastic and rock solid teaching.

 

Just a point of information.

 

I wondered if Derick had agreed to leave the Southern Baptist church behind...  I couldn't see him doing it if his goal is to be a long term missionary, but I couldn't figure out how they let anyone as liberal as a Southern Baptist into the fold, either.

[Guest]

I might have misunderstood your point, Katie.

 

I work at keep a joyful countenance as well? Joy isnt an analog for happiness? I can be joyful even in horrific circumstances and have - joy is a mindset, a state of being. Not an emotion. My emotions change all the time, but as a believer I have enduring, satisfying joy because it is based on my identity in Christ, not my circumstances.

 

I get depressed, grumpy, angry, and grief stricken. I feel happiness, cheer, sarcasm, and silliness. These are irrespective of a joyful being and countenance. My manner is joyful, even if my circumstances suck. That's not ATI brainwashing, it's basic Christianity and authentic to my experience as a believer.

 

Just because someone is both cheerful AND has had ATI exposure doesn't mean one is causative of the other, or somehow occultic. Trying to imply someone's experience with a friend is due only to Gothardite brainwashing is going beyond what is fair. I have a good friend who was pretty deep into ATI for several decades. They're genuine, loving believers. There were things about ATI that appealed to them, but it doesn't somehow color every interaction, experience, or theological point in there lives from there on out. People are more complex than that, despite Gothard's best efforts.

[Guest]

I wondered if Derick had agreed to leave the Southern Baptist church behind... I couldn't see him doing it if his goal is to be a long term missionary, but I couldn't figure out how they let anyone as liberal as a Southern Baptist into the fold, either.

I seriously doubt it. First off, there are two distinct camps in the SBC - the bigger one is extremely liberal and arminian, theologically. The other is moderately conservative, and calvinist theologically (this is the one Derick and Jill would be aligned with if I am going by conference attendance and sermons they have linked to, and what I, myself, was raised in). I have never seen any evidence that the Dillard family has been anything but biblically solid and very normal, evangelical Christian over the years.

 

Then again, my own exposure to ATI has been from real, professed, non-insane believers. I can only assume they must have just filtered the ATI crazy points because if they were the poster children for it is have nothing but good things to say.

 

I'm no expert with the crazy. At all. But I do spend a lot of time with authentic, sweet, staunch Christians and that is where I have run into association with families like the Dillards and Seewalds. All real life reports have been extremely positive.

[Guest]

And that's all I'm going to say on this. Like I said, points of information to contrast with the other information provided. I have no doubt Gothard is an evil man and has had others under him in previous years who are all in on all points. But plenty of people attended ATI conferences or even spent some time under their materials and didn't start sacrificing chickens and molesting and oppressing every female in a six mile radius.

 

Thankfully.

[Tsuga]

We know full well what happens to women who are not educated, do not have a source of social support outside of their husband and his friends/network, and who spend all their time caring for children, and whose husband and families do not support them in getting any independent skills that would ensure survival outside of the family in an emergency (widowhood, abuse, etc.). It is well documented because it was the state of affairs for women for thousands of years, and moreover, many women live like that in countries around the world today.

 

In my experience in traditional societies, what usually happens to such women is that they either return to their father, if he's a good man, or they are reduced to begging, or they begin to work and are often labeled as "whores" (with all the derogatory implications of using that term) by their communities, even if they are working in a very woman-centered industry like tailoring.

 

For example, I would witness widows on the street with a baby after their husband left them and claimed the baby wasn't his. In other cases, the daughter would return home to be her brother's maid, to "earn her keep", and never have her own family. Often she would be maltreated by her SIL and own mom.

 

In some cases the father would refuse to take his daughter back and the mom and daughter would strike out together.

 

In other cases in Muslim societies, if she was a widow, she MIGHT be able to get a second husband, for example his brother or cousin or a friend of his who would mainly do it for a free lay and to respect his nephews or his friend's sons after the death of the brother/cousin/friend.

 

If the guy is nice to you, lucky. All you have to do is be cared for. If he's not, well, if you happen to be living in a sub-culture, you can appeal to the larger culture and get out and get services. THAt happens here in the US all the time. If you can't get out, like if your whole country is like that, you're screwed.

 

That is why we have Social Security (developed initially for widows, orphans and the disabled). That is why we have feminism. Because while having the privilege of never studying or working is nice for any man or woman, and many people love staying home with small children, being forced to maintain a level of subservience and reduced power (intellectual, social, professional, and even emotional) sucks.

 

You don't have to agree with it but I'm yet to see a system in which women have fewer rights and powers than men, but are equally well off.

[Excelsior! Academy]

That depends on the family and how close they follow the teaching. Gothard himself is of the opinion that all reproductive issues are related to sin and spirituality, demon warfare, etc.

 

He believes that fasting, prayer, and abstinence - abiding faith - cures infertility and reproductive problems. He believes that women need C-sections because of demonic things in the home - cabbage patch dolls, troll dolls, barbies, adopted children for whom the "sins of the fathers have been visited down from generation to generation" and haven't been properly exorcised, etc. - and that clearing the spiritual walls will allow the birth to proceed normally.

 

Now that said, apparently Jimscum likes Michelle enough that he was willing for her to have medically assisted births as well as C-sections when necessary.

 

In terms of fertility, what I've seen within the local ATI community is that while they will give some lip service to "this must be God's will", but in reality since the more children a woman has within the more stringent ATI followers the more "holy" she is, the women tend to form a pecking order in which women with few or no children are on the bottom and pretty badly despised. A friend of mine whose husband was raised ATI but left that movement lost five babies to miscarriages at around 12 weeks, then had a long period of being unable to get pregnant, and then lost a set of twins at 21 weeks, and then finally with in vitro were able to have their daughter who is now 10 years of age. His family, still in ATI, shunned them "leaving the faith", and then had them declared apostate in the house church because of "hidden sin that causes them to not be blessed with children", and further apostate for engaging in fertility treatment instead of cleansing themselves of sin and waiting on the Lord.

 

Whether or not it plays out like that in every ATI community is hard to say. People can be so individual. If they follow Gothard's faith tenets strictly, then it is likely that a woman unable to have or undesiring of many children would feel derision.

 

Widowed women need to come under the umbrella of a male right away. So, if she does not have a widower on the line offering marriage right away, it is expected that her father, brother, or uncle take her in and provide for her and dependents if she has them. If she does not have ATI male relatives, she is really up a creek unless her other male relatives are willing to help, and she leaves the sect.

 

Depression? Hard to say because ATI sees that as a spiritual issue and shuns mental health services. ATI people are not going to admit they have depression. However, judging by the blog posts of survivors who have left the cult, I would say that may people are clinically depressed trying to keep up with all the rules, the judgmentalism, and keeping up appearances, depression could be very common.

 

Suicides? I really don't have any facts or figures.

 

 

Okay, haven't read the thread, but to the bolded....What does this mean for him?  If *Gothard* couldn't find anyone to marry, and *he* never had children, hasn't God essentially cursed *him* according to ATI's teachings?

[Slartibartfast]

I seriously doubt it. First off, there are two distinct camps in the SBC - the bigger one is extremely liberal and arminian, theologically. The other is moderately conservative, and calvinist theologically (this is the one Derick and Jill would be aligned with if I am going by conference attendance and sermons they have linked to, and what I, myself, was raised in). I have never seen any evidence that the Dillard family has been anything but biblically solid and very normal, evangelical Christian over the years.

 

Then again, my own exposure to ATI has been from real, professed, non-insane believers. I can only assume they must have just filtered the ATI crazy points because if they were the poster children for it is have nothing but good things to say.

 

I'm no expert with the crazy. At all. But I do spend a lot of time with authentic, sweet, staunch Christians and that is where I have run into association with families like the Dillards and Seewalds. All real life reports have been extremely positive.

 

How does one know what is going on in the privacy of the home?

 

Look at all the things the Duggars removed from their websites when they started to become a household name.

 

I remember people discussing them many years ago and I do remember seeing the Pearls content on their website and I do remember quite clearly seeing the tomato staking and blanket training things on their website.

 

I don't believe there is any such thing as a non-crazy ATI believer. If they weren't crazy they wouldn't give ATI their support. 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Well, I don't know about Job, but the one thing you never hear ole Billy Boy preaching on is the New Testatment. There is some occasional lip service about Jesus, but mostly the OT is his cup o tea. I think the New Testament is far too liberal for him!

 

Interesting!!

[ktgrok]

I might have misunderstood your point, Katie.

 

I work at keep a joyful countenance as well? Joy isnt an analog for happiness? I can be joyful even in horrific circumstances and have - joy is a mindset, a state of being. Not an emotion. My emotions change all the time, but as a believer Ihave enduring, satisfying joy because it is based on my identity in Christ, not my circumstances.

 

I get depressed, grumpy, angry, and grief stricken. I feel happiness, cheer, sarcasm, and silliness. These are irrespective of a joyful being and countenance. My manner is joyful, even if my circumstances suck. That's not ATI brainwashing, it's basic Christianity and authentic to my experience as a believer.

 

Just because someone is both cheerful AND has had ATI exposure doesn't mean one is causative of the other, or somehow occultic. Trying to imply someone's experience with a friend is due only to Gothardite brainwashing is going beyond what is fair. I have a good friend who was pretty deep into ATI for several decades. They're genuine, loving believers. There were things about ATI that appealed to them, but it doesn't somehow color every interaction, experience, or theological point in there lives from there on out. People are more complex than that, despite Gothard's best efforts.

 

If your joy springs from actual thoughts/feelings that is one thing. But do you smile all the time, refuse to show sadness, anger, etc because of it? That is what is taught. Same with the pearls...who instruct followers to beat the children until they are sweet. Given that context, "sweet" takes on a new context that isn't pleasant. I can have hope in the Lord and still get peeved that my son left his stinky shoes in the middle of the floor, and the dog stole the hot dogs off the counter. In ATI, I should be smiling and have nothing bad to say, no matter how I feel inwardly. Joy that is based on my true feelings is one thing. Forced images of joy are another. 

 

But if I'm remembering other conversations you and I have very different ideas of what is and isn't okay in regards to family matters, so what sends up red flags for me my not for you.

[momacacia]

Okay, haven't read the thread, but to the bolded....What does this mean for him? If *Gothard* couldn't find anyone to marry, and *he* never had children, hasn't God essentially cursed *him* according to ATI's teachings?

No, he has "chosen singleness for the cause of Christ" per I Cor. 7, which makes him holier than though, so to speak.

[sunflowerlady]

He never married but tells grown,married people when they can brew TeA and when they can't.

 

I think he bases it on Old Testament scripture.

[Tsuga]

Wait, is TeA an acronym? I get the euphemism. But why TeA?

[MFG]

I haven't seen any evidence of biblically inaccurate beliefs from the spouses, and judging by the latest conference Jill and Derick attended just a few weeks postpartum, they're sitting under fantastic and rock solid teaching.

 

Just a point of information.

At two weeks postpartum the Dillards attended the ATI Family Conference in Big Sandy, TX. Is there another conference they have attended?

http://starcasm.net/archives/313119 (scroll down past the "Is Jessa pregnant" part)

http://ati.iblp.org/ati/events/regionalconferences/

[G5052]

All good points.

 

Here's a good website with more on ATI and Gothard: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/.

 

If you run in conservative Christian circles, you're most likely going to encounter it.

 

I've known people over the years who didn't educate their female children past high school and who considered any woman that worked outside of the home to be on the "wrong side."  

 

Some have softened that viewpoint, and some have not.  We have one family in our church who did soften.  The wife once gave a talk at a baby shower that blamed the ills of society on working women (not just working mothers). Thankfully there was an older woman there, a very well-respected hospital executive, who basically shut that down. The girls in that family later graduated from college and are working in secular jobs. But there's still yet another family who has "stay-at-home" daughters for now.  They're lovely girls, but I wonder what they'll think of that long-term.

[Guest]

At two weeks postpartum the Dillards attended the ATI Family Conference in Big Sandy, TX. Is there another conference they have attended?

http://starcasm.net/archives/313119

http://ati.iblp.org/ati/events/regionalconferences/

Yes, they've attended several mainstream apologetics conferences around Texas and Georgia (small weekend guest speaker kinds in local churches, nothing billed large) . I hadn't heard about the ATI one. Now I have to do some emailing!

[Dmmetler]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

[El...]

Oh, hun.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  

[Guest]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

That's so wrong. Gentle hugs :(

[Guest]

Okay friends, I keep trying to wade through Recovering Grace but cannot get past the baby being thrown out with the bath water in many of the posts and testimonies, where biblically defensible doctrines are being railroaded with the tripe Gothard spewed. Can someone please direct me to a source or article that doesn't slander all of historically normative Calvinism along with the cray cray? Please? I need something to show some folks who have more positive views of ATI than me, but they won't listen to anything like what I've been reading on that website.

[Katy]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:   I'm so sorry.  That's terrible.

[monstermama]

Okay friends, I keep trying to wade through Recovering Grace but cannot get past the baby being thrown out with the bath water in many of the posts and testimonies, where biblically defensible doctrines are being railroaded with the tripe Gothard spewed. Can someone please direct me to a soouses that doesn't slander all of historically normative Calvinism along with the cray cray? Please? I need something to show some folks who have more positive views of ATI than me, but they won't listen to anything like what I've been reading on that website.

 

And, as Christians, isn't that the saddest part?  They aren't taught how to distinguish between the cray cray and things that are sound biblically so once the cracks start appearing, they decide it's all bunk.

 

There are a few scans of ATI material out there that I find very questionable biblically.  Here's the moral failures one (http://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family1.pdf) where having boys change babies' diapers and little kids (no ages listed, but I'm assuming toddlers or preschoolers) running around naked after bath time are cited as causes of the boy's offense.  Also, the sexual abuse one (http://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Counseling_Sexual_Abuse-540x700.jpeg) where the victim is asked whether he or she would prefer no physical abuse or to be mighty in spirit.

[Guest]

I hadn't thought to use those pamphlet materials as an example, but I looked them over and saw major issues. That's a great ideas, thank you. I'll take any other links, too.

[Southern Ivy]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

I am so sorry you were treated that way.  :grouphug:

[Chris in VA]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

I'm so sorry. If you need to ask questions or vent or anything, you can pm me. No expert here, but some experience.

 

:grouphug:

 

[Mommy22alyns]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

 

My gosh.  I am so very sorry.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :crying:

[MercyA]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

That's terrible. I am so sorry.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[albeto.]

And, as Christians, isn't that the saddest part?  They aren't taught how to distinguish between the cray cray and things that are sound biblically so once the cracks start appearing, they decide it's all bunk.

 

What does ATI promote that isn't drawn from scripture in some way? If "cray cray" is determined by the use of scripture to develop beliefs and practices, what's to stop someone from claiming Catholics or Quakers or Pentecostals aren't crazy? They each draw from different interpretations of the bible, and follow a history of practices that are unique to their communities. What makes ATI different? 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

What does ATI promote that isn't drawn from scripture in some way? If "cray cray" is determined by the use of scripture to develop beliefs and practices, what's to stop someone from claiming Catholics or Quakers or Pentecostals aren't crazy? They each draw from different interpretations of the bible, and follow a history of practices that are unique to their communities. What makes ATI different? 

 

One great big difference between ATI and the rest of Jesus-believing people is that ATI follows a hermeneutic invented and authored by one single man, Bill Gothard.

 

I've lost the link, but there used to be a preacher who kept a blog about this. He got his hands on ATI materials that are usually only available to seminar attendees, and went through Gothard's use of scripture line by line. What Gothard will do is take a passage, lift it out of context, section it and paste it back together with some totally unrelated opinion of his sandwiched between two of the rewritten parts -- and the part he added is the MAIN part now. Unlike with other Bible believing groups that can leave personalities (cult leaders) and group memberships behind, travel to another place, and meet perfect strangers who are reading the same thing while remaining autonomous individuals and hurting nobody.

 

The thing that amazes me is that previously reasonably intelligent persons who are very familiar with their traditional Bibles will get in line to learn about the hidden codes that Gothard sees, and reformulate their worship, their relationships, their family decisions, and their entire understanding of doctrine to get in line. Why do they do that? I can only guess that they have not become crazy or unintelligent but rather they have fallen victim to a cult leader. ATI is a cult.

 

Cray cray is the wrong word here. ATI is a cult. If you're in a group that redefines all the terms, makes rules for your relationships, manipulates you into staying in the game through false promises, charges you hundreds to thousands of dollars to learn more, enriches the leaders while subjugating your daughters, you are in a cult.

 

If we get to the point that the mainstream thinking of the west is that Catholics are a cult (or that all religion/faith is an outgrowth of mental illness), then we can work backward to answer your question of, "Why are not all Bible-following persons considered crazy?" But until then, the answer is that ATI is a cult and the rest are generally considered not to be.

[Slache]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

I am so sorry. I would have loved you, held your hand, and cried with you because that is what family does whether it's by blood or faith. There is no excuse for that. I don't even know what to say but my heart just hurts so much for you right now.

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

 

This website has a section on their misuse of scripture.

[Guest]

I've been having a hard time wading through RG, but I did find this, which I think satisfies what I need to talk to my people on the subject and might benefit some others who are having baby/bath water syndrome over the whole thing. I haven't read through it all yet, but it looks concise and helpful as I'm diving in.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/a-call-for-discernment-2/

[Twigs]

He never married but tells grown,married people when they can brew TeA and when they can't.

 

I think he bases it on Old Testament scripture.

 

 

Wait, is TeA an acronym? I get the euphemism. But why TeA?

 

He gets it from Old Testament Law:

 

Leviticus 12 :1-5

 

Leviticus 15:19-25

 

Leviticus 18:19

[monstermama]

What does ATI promote that isn't drawn from scripture in some way? If "cray cray" is determined by the use of scripture to develop beliefs and practices, what's to stop someone from claiming Catholics or Quakers or Pentecostals aren't crazy? They each draw from different interpretations of the bible, and follow a history of practices that are unique to their communities. What makes ATI different? 

 

There's an old chestnut that you can prove anything with an out of context verse from the Bible - very similar to Gothard's "rhemas."  Most modern scriptural interpretation relies on reading verses in context of the passage they're in, and also relies on the author's intent.  If someone tells me that verse X means Y, I expect to be able to pick up a Bible, read that verse and the surrounding passage, and then come to the same conclusion.  It's also got to be considered in context with the rest of the Bible - I'm thinking about the OT laws against eating shellfish, etc, that are later overturned in the NT.

 

One example from the link Arctic Mama posted, Gothard uses Hebrews 9:22("In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.") to say that menstrual cycles are a reminder of Christ's blood that was spilled for our redemption.  Hebrews is, in general, an explanation of Jesus as fulfilling the role of the Messiah as a priest, and that his sacrifice is an atonement for sins.  Hebrews 9 is talking about using animal blood to purify the Old Testament tabernacle and comparing it to using Christ's blood to purify the heavenly tabernacle.  Part of the gist of the whole thing, actually, is that Christ only had to shed his blood once while OT practices required yearly blood shed.  So, if you just Gothard's take on the verse at face value, sure, sounds like a great thing to be constantly reminded that Christ bled for us, and there are other verses in the NT even that could be used for that, but not that one.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of different Christian interpretations, and some can be explained by reliance on sola scriptura (Calvin and Luther) or prima scriptura (Methodists and Anglicans) or tradition (Catholic and Orthodox, I think?).  But in general you can look at the source document (so generally the Bible) and evaluate the claim.  Now, if you don't think the source document is true, then of course you're going to think all Christians are cray cray  :laugh:  (Sorry for using that word again, but it cracks me up, and I seriously never get to use it in real life.)

 

Sorry for the rambling - I'm not very good at hermeneutics but I find it fascinating.

[LucyStoner]

Awhile back, someone posted a link on WTM to a testimonial from a woman in an ATI/IBLP family who had PPD and her husband essentially committed her to a reprogramming thingymajigger because she didn't take his leadership/accept his rebuke.  In short, she was massively depressed with PPD and didn't snap out of it when he told her to so he sent her away. Her main crime?  She didn't go to bed later than her husband and kids and wake up before them, working the whole time.  It left an impression on me because it was such a stark contrast to how my own husband loved and supported me when I had severe PPD after my younger son was born.  I can't seem to find it in my bookmarks.  If this rings a bell for you and you have the link, please post it.