Anybody else feeling foolish?

[Excelsior! Academy]

My family and I are Christians and we have a large family.  We aren't quiverfull, nor do we hold to certain fundamentalist beliefs. Heck, I even wear skinny jeans and yoga pants.

 

When the Doug Phillips scandal broke I was shocked.  And now I'm shocked at the Duggar scandal.  I feel like a blessed fool.  How could I have not seen through this?

 

I know this is frowned upon, but I may delete later.

[katilac]

I am never shocked when these things happen. My parents taught me from an early age that it's always the ones who protest too much, and their wisdom has held true over the years. 

[The Girls' Mom]

I'm far too cynical and have experienced too many bad things at the hands of "Christians" to have much trust in anyone, to be honest.  And I DO consider myself a Christian.  I just know that a large percentage of those that claim it, do not live it.

[marbel]

I'm not shocked by scandals. There are scandals all the time.  The fact that people are professing Christians doesn't change that. 

 

Of course I am saddened by it.  But I have never paid much attention to the folks who proclaim their holiness loudly and publicly --> they seem to be the most vulnerable to a downfall. 

[Catwoman]

Religion has nothing to do with the reason the Josh Duggar story shocked me.

 

I always found the Duggars to be an unusual family, but they always seemed to be basically nice, pleasant people. The kids seemed happy, healthy, and sweet.

 

That's why I was shocked to learn about Josh. I may disagree with the vast majority of his political and religious views, but I was under the impression that he was a good guy at heart, so I never would have dreamed that he would have done the things he did as a teenager. Never. He always seemed kind of innocent to me when he was younger (in the few episodes of the show I watched.)

 

I know there is no way to tell by looking at a person (or even by knowing them personally in many cases) if they have ever done something awful, but it's still a surprise when you find out about it.

[MercyA]

Very little ever shocks me.  I suppose that's a sad commentary on the state of the world.   :(

[Greta]

Your innocence is nothing to feel embarrassed about. Being shocked is the *right* reaction.

 

I am very cynical about this stuff, because I was raised in a religion that was obsessed with policing sex between consenting adults, while simultaneously helping rapists and pedophiles hide their sins and continue to abuse people.  So no, I am not shocked.  But that's because of my mistrust and bitterness.  That's not where you want to be.

 

Other people will continue to deny and defend, and that's not where you want to be either, because that is the most sick reaction of all.

 

You, OP, are just fine where you are.   :grouphug:

[Jyhwkmama]

The Duggers exercise excessive control over their children well into what most of us would consider adulthood. Their family dynamic calls for suppression of all sexual thoughts and desires (not even kissing) until marriage. I am not shocked. The fact that the female of the family have no ability to voice complaint makes it even more believable that it was rug swept.

 

Jimmy Swaggart

Jim Bakker

Ted Haggard

Doug Phillips

Bill Gothard

Matthew Durham (particularly egregious)

 

This list is just what I can quickly remember. No one should be shocked. Christianity is not insulation from sexual deviancy. Often, the patriarchal structure actually allows it to flourish.

 

That being said, you are not foolish to have personal faith if that is what works for you. However, it is always wise to be wary of "Christian Leaders" -especially those who seem to relish in power and like to put women in a place of lesser than.

 

ETA: I don't find fault with Ted Haggard because he engaged in homosexual behavior. My issue with him is the fact that he had sex outside the confines of his marriage then lied about it and tried to cover it up (plus used illegal substances). I do not think homosexuality in itself is deviant.

 

 

[J-rap]

I don't understand why you feel like a fool.  A repressed, shame/guilt environment can lead to weird behavior.  That has nothing to do with Christianity.  Are you saying you feel like a fool because you had expected more of them?  How are we to know what goes on beyond what we can see?  It is sad, but I don't think you should feel foolish.

 

[lea_lpz]

Religion has nothing to do with the reason the Josh Duggar story shocked me.

 

I always found the Duggars to be an unusual family, but they always seemed to be basically nice, pleasant people. The kids seemed happy, healthy, and sweet.

 

That's why I was shocked to learn about Josh. I may disagree with the vast majority of his political and religious views, but I was under the impression that he was a good guy at heart, so I never would have dreamed that he would have done the things he did as a teenager. Never. He always seemed kind of innocent to me when he was younger (in the few episodes of the show I watched.)

 

I know there is no way to tell by looking at a person (or even by knowing them personally in many cases) if they have ever done something awful, but it's still a surprise when you find out about it.

I feel similarly. I am Christian but wouldn't align with their politics or religious views. I did think well not the life I would pick but to each their own and they seem to be happy as a family. The show was a guilty indulgence to me. I first saw their family on tlc when I was pregnant with my first child in 2006. I think it was just a special then. I remember thinking, I am miserable right now, how could she willingly go through this 14 times . So watching with a new baby was just a sort of interesting thing to grapple, that many kids as I adjusted to having just one, lol!

 

I heard this circling a few years back and since I did watch the show I wanted to see if there was validity to it and what happened. It sounded like he and the Holt girl got caught going beyond the hand holding only rules and maybe her parents freaked out. I figured maybe they caught them touching. But they seemed close enough in age that it didn't seem like actual charges could have been pressed. Just normal stuff teens do and parents overreacting.

 

I would never have guessed this, but the fact remains that molesters seldom look like the boogy -man, and I'm fact they are often very likeable, smart and charming people.

 

I don't think homeschooling or being a Christian had anything to do with it.

 

I can see now that I know more about the family (ie, ATI) that their cult like take on religion, gender roles, and homeschooling could have done this

 

Any anyway don't they go to a home-church? Who were the church elders? Jim Bob and Michelle?

[Guest]

Religion has nothing to do with the reason the Josh Duggar story shocked me.

 

I always found the Duggars to be an unusual family, but they always seemed to be basically nice, pleasant people. The kids seemed happy, healthy, and sweet.

 

That's why I was shocked to learn about Josh. I may disagree with the vast majority of his political and religious views, but I was under the impression that he was a good guy at heart, so I never would have dreamed that he would have done the things he did as a teenager. Never. He always seemed kind of innocent to me when he was younger (in the few episodes of the show I watched.)

 

I know there is no way to tell by looking at a person (or even by knowing them personally in many cases) if they have ever done something awful, but it's still a surprise when you find out about it.

That's where I'm at. I'm trying to square this with what I know of their family through real life peeps, my impressions of them and their beliefs from my own exposure, and the situstion at hand.

 

I think I'm coming up with "Does not compute". I'm a huge proponent of mercy, reparations, forgiveness, and mending broken relationships. But what that should look like in the context of such a violation is really, really hard for me to flesh out.

 

I hope to heaven I never have to try. As a parent I cannot even imagine how to deal with that in a way that appropriately addresses the gravity of the situation without totally obliterating my family.

[Guest]

And you know, I'm having a hard time managing all the data because it keeps being interspersed with maligning of Christians, conservative Christians, large families, Republicans, the FRC, headship and submission, what people THINK headship and submission mean, blah blah blah (not necessarily on this forum, just in general. I actually think the discussion here has been very well done).

 

I feel like I have to defend the things getting tossed under the bus with this situation without accepting or condoning any of the dreck and nonsense. I don't have the mental energy to even try. So I'm just mad, hurt, kind of insulted, and heartbroken all at once.

[texasmama]

I will not feel foolish for hoping for the best from people.  I will never be surprised when some of them prove me wrong.

 

 

[texasmama]

I think this is probably the best analogy I can come up with that people here could relate to...

 

Imagine if this were SWB and her family, and all along you've held her and her family up as a paragon of "homeschooling holiness". Imagine finding out that it's all been a sham, whereas for a decade you've been trying to emulate that paragon of perfection. Wouldn't you then feel foolish upon learning that everything the WTM is built upon is merely shifting sand?

Now THAT would make me sad.  Because I heart SWB and want to be her when I grow up.  :D  I never wanted to be the Duggars when I grew up.

[creekland]

 but the fact remains that molesters seldom look like the boogy -man, and I'm fact they are often very likeable, smart and charming people.

 

 

I think this is a good take-away.  If people came with a large M on them in a visible area there might not be a problem, but they don't.

 

It saddens me when someone well-known (nationally or locally) is "discovered" whether that's religious, sports, academic or elsewhere.  It saddens me mainly due to all the victims, but also just because what should be, isn't.  I prefer an ideal world to the real one sometimes, but it just doesn't happen that way.

[Guest]

I think this is probably the best analogy I can come up with that people here could relate to...

 

Imagine if this were SWB and her family, and all along you've held her and her family up as a paragon of "homeschooling holiness". Imagine finding out that it's all been a sham, whereas for a decade you've been trying to emulate that paragon of perfection. Wouldn't you then feel foolish upon learning that everything the WTM is built upon is merely shifting sand?

Yes, it's just a very good reminder to keep our eyes on Christ and not build men up to be more than they are. jyhwkmama hit it very, very well. I'm usually so good about not doing that, but I think I must have slipped in this area for it to be bothering me so much. Who knows.

 

I really hope good things come of this for everyone involved. Not more hurt and drama. Especially for the girls and the uninvolved families of the fallout.

[Jyhwkmama]

and if it makes you feel any better, there are several super cynical, Christian snarky posters on freejinger that are absolutely honestly shocked by this

[Heatherwith4]

I don't feel stupid or foolish, but I am spending some time in prayer because I have quite a few homeschooling friends who really look up to the Duggars. I don't think they have a clue about Gothard. They need to know, though. And it has to be communicated in the right way.

 

Between this and the crazy homesteaders, I am thinking a media break for me is going to have to happen this weekend.

[Jyhwkmama]

I don't feel stupid or foolish, but I am spending some time in prayer because I have quite a few homeschooling friends who really look up to the Duggars. I don't think they have a clue about Gothard. They need to know, though. And it has to be communicated in the right way.

 

Between this and the crazy homesteaders, I am thinking a media break for me is going to have to happen this weekend.

 

Heather-

 

If anyone you know needs convincing information on Gothard, she can find it here. There are actual first person victim statements available to read. They are gut wrenching. http://www.recoveringgrace.org/gothardfiles/

 

I hope you find peace this weekend.

[Guest]

Heather, my own husband had some ATI teaching as a teen and his parents had seminars with him. I don't think any of them have a clue about Gothard. I skimmed the BLP book and still didn't catch the crazy, because my brain kept putting the best theological spin on it out of habit. We have had enough awesome teaching and preaching that the errors were plainly obvious and nobody thought more of it.

 

The extent of the cult aspect and depravity is truly shocking to me. I hadn't heard anything about this, the Pearls, etc, until this forum. I still can barely believe it. I just naively assumed the best of these people and didn't know enough about them to see the ugly underside.

 

Ick.

[Jyhwkmama]

Heather, my own husband had some ATI teaching as a teen and his parents had seminars with him. I don't think any of them have a clue about Gothard. I skimmed the BLP book and still didn't catch the crazy, because my brain kept putting the best theological spin on it out of habit. We have had enough awesome teaching and preaching that the errors were plainly obvious and nobody thought more of it.

 

The extent of the cult aspect and depravity is truly shocking to me. I hadn't heard anything about this, the Pearls, etc, until this forum. I still can barely believe it. I just naively assumed the best of these people and didn't know enough about them to see the ugly underside.

 

Ick.

 

 

I think it is really hard when you are in the middle of it all to see the big picture and be objective, especially if it is the way you have always been taught to think. 

[Zebra]

The Jim Bakker/Jimmy Swaggert debacles cured me of ever being shocked again by things like this.   I was raised in that whole world, and I would like to thank Jim and Tammy Faye for making me the cynic I am today :lol: !!!!

 

 

 

 

[sunflowerlady]

Not much shocks me anymore.

[Tangerine]

Those girls were under lifelong pressure to always maintain a "joyful countenance." To a lot of people they just looked happy.

[EmseB]

Heather, my own husband had some ATI teaching as a teen and his parents had seminars with him. I don't think any of them have a clue about Gothard. I skimmed the BLP book and still didn't catch the crazy, because my brain kept putting the best theological spin on it out of habit. We have had enough awesome teaching and preaching that the errors were plainly obvious and nobody thought more of it.

 

The extent of the cult aspect and depravity is truly shocking to me. I hadn't heard anything about this, the Pearls, etc, until this forum. I still can barely believe it. I just naively assumed the best of these people and didn't know enough about them to see the ugly underside.

 

Ick.

That's part of the problem with all those programs. They are incredibly legalistic and thrive on outward appearances. Everyone has to have a "good countenance" and no one is allowed to be messed up. Which is funny, because that's the exact opposite of the gospel message.

 

How much better is it to be open and honest about our failings and foibles...Even if they are awful...than to try to stuff everything in and hide it until you can't handle it yourself and end up doing something horrible like Josh did? Josh was never allowed to not be okay according to ATI basic life principles. He was never allowed to admit what was really going on in his life that was disturbing before he acted on it. The girls he hurt are never allowed to not be okay. Everyone has to have a shining face all the time.

 

I'm honestly never surprised by this stuff. It is heartbreaking, but not surprising.

[6packofun]

I'd only be feeling foolish if I had put a ridiculous, unrealistic amount of hope or expectations in other human beings.  I don't tend to do that, though.

[HS Mom in NC]

I once joked a few years ago about starting a pool on which kind of scandal would hit the Duggars.

 

I think people who had already come to the conclusion that Bill Gothard was a cult leader weren't surprised at all whether they're any brand of Christian or not. The only things that surprised me were:

 

1. The girls knew what was happening to them was wrong and told their parents about it.

2. A family friend reported it.

3. Josh Duggar didn't deny it or twist it into some sort of "misunderstanding" by the victims.

4. Family Research Council didn't come out and publicly give some sort of "Let's not jump to conclusions" and then say they'd decide later if they'd fire him or not.

 

Those are all as good as surprises get in such a terrible situation. I'm more hopeful about the girls recovering knowing those things IF they're given professional counseling about it.

 

 

Never never never assume anyone is on such a high spiritual plane that they could never commit such a heinous sin.  Don't put your faith in people, put your faith in Jesus.

Jesus said to be cunning as a serpent and harmless as a dove.  It's OK to be cunning as long as you're doing it to end or avoid trouble, not cause it.

 

I also won't be surprised if other victims come out in the future if the family friend he stayed with had children in the house or any other situation where he had access to children.

 

I hope the most common conversation this prompts is Christians asking their leadership they will handle this kind of situation in the future. It should be in writing.  Anyone getting less than satisfactory answers that include:

 

1. Immediately removing the molester from any and all situations with the children (even if the molester is a minor.)

2. Immediately reporting it to law enforcement.

3. Immediately providing access to licensed, professional therapists for both the victims and molesters.

 

If not, fire your leadership.  If you don't go to a church where the congregation has the authority to fire leadership, leave a church that has leadership that isn't getting it right.  Today! When you look into new churches, be sure to look at churches' policies/constitutions/bylaws that addresses this along with doctrinal statements and budgets.

 

At my church the pastor and his wife are in the process of deprogramming a couple with 6 kids who grew up in two different wings of the Bill Gothard Cult. 

[gardenmom5]

before I knew much about the duggars, I thought they seemed like a nice enough family.  with some extreme positions. (e.g. deliberately setting out to have a baby every year for 20 years.)  I didn't ever care enough to watch their show. 

 

as I got to know more about them - there were things I found downright manipulative of their own kids.  (re: the daughter who wanted and was excited to go to NYC, but michelle stepped into explain "what she really meant" and, no, she wouldn't be going to the "big city".  that threw up lots of flags. and blanket training  . . . . )

 

while I do know many people who are sincerely trying to live their beliefs christian to the best of their ability (yeah, some fall short, but are trying)  - I do know some who use them as a shield to hide who they really are.   (and really don't care 'to try".)

 

I would wish the supporters would give more thought to the girls who were molested.

 

their failures however, do not affect my own faith or actions.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I'm confused. Are you shocked because they are Christian? Or because they came across as wholesome (or insert your own word).

 

Lots of people identify as Christian.

 

I'm not sure of the correct words.  Maybe the hypocritical nature of it all.  I know other people have been hypocrites and fallen hard, but this is the first time(s) I have been shocked and truly feel foolish.  Maybe I was starting to drink the Kool-aid? 

[catz]

I am not Christian and have never been a Duggar fan.  But I've always thought the show painted the picture they wanted seen and that they'd be falling hard sooner or later.  This situation is even worse than I would have imagined.  I'm glad the show is being taken off the air.  I've been disgusted by it for years and they can no longer profit over this illusion they've painted for so long. 

[Guest]

I'm never shocked because I'm a natural cynic. I'm always looking for people's true colors to show. Sad but true.

 

I certainly don't believe anything I see on TV!!

[Excelsior! Academy]

Religion has nothing to do with the reason the Josh Duggar story shocked me.

 

I always found the Duggars to be an unusual family, but they always seemed to be basically nice, pleasant people. The kids seemed happy, healthy, and sweet.

 

That's why I was shocked to learn about Josh. I may disagree with the vast majority of his political and religious views, but I was under the impression that he was a good guy at heart, so I never would have dreamed that he would have done the things he did as a teenager. Never. He always seemed kind of innocent to me when he was younger (in the few episodes of the show I watched.)

 

I know there is no way to tell by looking at a person (or even by knowing them personally in many cases) if they have ever done something awful, but it's still a surprise when you find out about it.

 

This. ^ Bolded especially.

 

 

Your innocence is nothing to feel embarrassed about. Being shocked is the *right* reaction.

 

I am very cynical about this stuff, because I was raised in a religion that was obsessed with policing sex between consenting adults, while simultaneously helping rapists and pedophiles hide their sins and continue to abuse people.  So no, I am not shocked.  But that's because of my mistrust and bitterness.  That's not where you want to be.

 

Other people will continue to deny and defend, and that's not where you want to be either, because that is the most sick reaction of all.

 

You, OP, are just fine where you are.   :grouphug:

 

Thank you.

 

I don't understand why you feel like a fool.  A repressed, shame/guilt environment can lead to weird behavior.  That has nothing to do with Christianity.  Are you saying you feel like a fool because you had expected more of them?  How are we to know what goes on beyond what we can see?  It is sad, but I don't think you should feel foolish.

 

Again, thank you.

 

I will not feel foolish for hoping for the best from people.  I will never be surprised when some of them prove me wrong.

 

This is excellent! 

[mamakelly]

I always felt like something wasn't quite right with them. I mean, I very occasionally watched the show, but it just didn't sit well with me. I'm very sad for those girls.

[Frances]

I am never shocked when these things happen. My parents taught me from an early age that it's always the ones who protest too much, and their wisdom has held true over the years.

Me too. Even though my life and beliefs are very different than the Duggars, I'll admit I enjoyed watching episodes here and there when I was somewhere with cable or there were free ones available online. Although some of their views seemed extreme, overall they appeared to be a nice, loving family.

 

My views started to shift when I learned about Gothard and ATI from these boards and it was all over for me when Josh joined the FRC. Raising your family in a cult is bad enough, but actively advocating against families that are different than yours is simply repugnant. Once he took the road of moral superiority, I assumed it was only a matter of time before some family skeletons were revealed.

[rebbyribs]

I'd heard some of the rumors and had assumed that Josh's "sin" was that he had done something that was not okay by his family's standards but wouldn't be a problem in most American families (e.g., looking at a lingerie catalog, making out with a consenting teenage girl).  I really hadn't expected that it was something really terrible.  I wonder if the strict rules in that family had the inadvertent effect of making it seem like fondling a sibling was no worse than masturbating or looking at p*rn.  

[VeteranMom]

With that many people in a family something was bound to pop up eventually.  No, I don't feel foolish.  These are human beings and they are imperfect.  I don't know all the details.    

[laughing lioness]

Not shocked. Not cynical. Who lives in a reality T.V. show? 

[katilac]

The kids seemed happy, healthy, and sweet.

 

Unfortunately, quite a few people thought the family must be okay or 'doing something right' because of this, but children in ATI are raised to have a cheerful countenance. Always. There are songs and lessons and reminders. Girls in particular are implored to 'keep sweet.' 

 

A child in a more mainstream family who is not smiling doesn't attract attention; but the ATI child does. If a regular child is a bit down or even sullen, their parents might call them moody, but ATI parents call them sinners. 

 

It's a big part of their belief system. 

[Catwoman]

Those girls were under lifelong pressure to always maintain a "joyful countenance." To a lot of people they just looked happy.

:iagree:

 

I'll be honest -- I believed they were happy. They certainly put on a great show of it.

 

I still hope they are genuinely happy, but I certainly have more doubts about it now than I did before I found out about the Josh scandal.

 

It is kind of frightening to think those girls were so well-trained and well-conditioned that they were able to pull of the "joyful countenance" charade so convincingly while they were dealing with such personal and emotional trauma behind the sweet smiles. :(

[Catherine]

:iagree:

 

I'll be honest -- I believed they were happy. They certainly put on a great show of it.

 

I still hope they are genuinely happy, but I certainly have more doubts about it now than I did before I found out about the Josh scandal.

 

It is kind of frightening to think those girls were so well-trained and well-conditioned that they were able to pull of the "joyful countenance" charade so convincingly while they were dealing with such personal and emotional trauma behind the sweet smiles. :(

I think this is partly because a big part of being happy is actively chosen for all of us.  I don't think religious sects that require happiness are a good model, but I do think that they appeared happy partly because they ARE happy a good bit of the time-particularly when the cameras are around. 

 

I am most interested in the victims.  I hope his abuse did not extend beyond fondling and didn't persist for a long time.  I just hope someone actually *believes* the girls. 

[Aelwydd]

I think this is probably the best analogy I can come up with that people here could relate to...

 

Imagine if this were SWB and her family, and all along you've held her and her family up as a paragon of "homeschooling holiness". Imagine finding out that it's all been a sham, whereas for a decade you've been trying to emulate that paragon of perfection. Wouldn't you then feel foolish upon learning that everything the WTM is built upon is merely shifting sand?

 

I see your point, Kinsa, but...I have never associated your family values, as you've expressed them on this board, with the Duggars' values. Just because they have a big family and you have a somewhat big family does not equate shared foundation, IMO. They have tons of kids because they are part of an organization that sees children as foot soldiers in their demographic war campaign.  You have kids because you love having kids and you are fulfilled with your life mate. I have never heard you express the desire to outbreed the infidels, so the speak.

 

Just because they happen to be Christian, does not mean that they are the same type of person as you. 

 

As far as Christianity goes, yeah, I don't like the religion, and yeah, I do think a lot of its misogynistic teachings have been extant in validating sex abuse.  I happen to think that about several other religions, though.  Any religion that teaches God is Man, and Man is the head of Woman, and Woman is there to play second fiddle-yep, I do see that as a major contributor to patriarchal, sexist behaviors.

 

That said--religion is hardly the only bastion of misogyny or abuse.  Atheist communities can be extremely nasty and sexist.  OMG. Look at Gamergate! They only difference is, the atheist misogynist appeals to naturalism for his odious beliefs, and the theist misogynist appeals to divinely-appointed natural order.

 

I think both types are assholes.

 

And if tomorrow, SWB's family was in the headlines--I would be shocked, appalled, and dismayed.  But, I wouldn't be embarrassed or feel at all foolish for using her materials or for coming to this board.  Mostly, because I've gone around different websites and read a great deal of SWB's work, so I feel pretty confident that I know what she and her mother stand for: Christian values, yes, but also academic excellence, the promotion of critical thinking, and the exercise of common sense.   There is nothing in her writings or publications to suggest the kind of, pardon me, f**kery, that typically plagues regressive, controlling religious groups.

 

Not so with the Duggars.  I did purposely go looking through many websites and try to find as much information about the Duggars as I could find over the past several years.  I read all of Faith's postings on ATI and I researched the crap out of that group.  I figured, the apple don't fall far from the tree, and neither do the theological children of that screwed up cult.

 

And because of that research, I figured the Duggars' polite mien was only skin deep . Unlike if anything came out for SWB, I wasn't shocked at all that the Duggars are dealing with molestation.  I expected something like this to come out, based upon the type of beliefs they embraced, the kind of community they were part of, and the kind of ideals they promulgated. Sexual abuse is fed by secrecy and shame.  It can and does occur in all family types, but it absolutely thrives when in a situation where the victims are silenced and have no voice.  The Duggar girls have no voice, and I'm guessing, unless one or more finds the inner courage to break away and deal with the fall out, they never will.

 

In any case, I don't associate your family with any of that. You value education. You have friends outside family and church. You have your own mind and you think for yourself. I just don't see any reason why you should feel foolish, because you don't have your family built on the same foundation as they do at all. 

[Aelwydd]

I'm just waiting for the reveal at some point in the future, for Jim Bob's anger problem.  I have watched him enough to be very concerned for his family's sake.  That man is a controlling, rage-filled person, who is very, very good at hiding it.  Michelle has her own anger issues, but JB is a time bomb. 

 

Don't believe me?  Go and watch several episodes, and pay careful attention to his eyes, and his body language.  He reminds me very strongly of a rageaholic in my own family.  It's uncanny.

[DawnM]

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.  And the Duggars fell hard.

 

Josh was trying to get into politics.  ANY time you try to get into politics, people start digging and you best hope you have nothing there for them to find.  Josh knew he did have something very egregious to hide and played with the stakes anyway.  He lost, as he should have.

 

Honestly, I didn't even know who Doug Phillips or Ted Haggard were until they fell.  I just don't keep up with them.

 

However, there are indeed people who would shock me terribly if they fell from grace......like Billy Graham.

 

The years have brought on a lot of cynicism.  Hopefully not angry, bitter cynicism, but a very strong caution.  

[Pawz4me]

I've been trying to say this since yesterday, and I still can't get it to come out w/o sounding harsh.  I don't mean it to be, but I honestly can't figure out how to say it w/o sounding that way --

 

The only thing that shocks me is that so many people in this day and age believe that what they see on reality TV, or any TV, has any truth in it.  Even if this were a good, wholesome family (and I think they're far from that) what you see on TV would very likely have only a small percentage of truth to it.

 

These are parents who churn out child after child to be used as commodities--they market the kids to support their TV show.  To make money on them.  To gain/hold on to a small amount of fame.  Maybe they want to do it for the religious reasons.  Or maybe they started out with that idea and then it became all about fame and fortune. I don't know, but I suspect the latter.  I do NOT think they're a loving, stable family by any stretch of the imagination.  Quite the contrary.  IMO loving, stable parents don't stick their kids in front of TV cameras.  Loving, stable parents, even most of those who are famous, want their kids to have some semblance of a normal childhood, and that doesn't involve TV cameras.  Most famous parents try to shield their kids from cameras and publicity.  They don't use them (and continue to churn them out) in order to attract publicity.

 

For Josh to have been forced to spend all his life in a cultish, repressive religious atmosphere and also be forced to spend some of those years living in front of cameras and directors and production crews -- no, it doesn't shock me that something like this happened.  I'm not defending him by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's a victim of his parents. All those kids are. Unfortunately, his sisters have been victimized by both their parents and their brother.

[Rebel Yell]

Unfortunately, quite a few people thought the family must be okay or 'doing something right' because of this, but children in ATI are raised to have a cheerful countenance. Always. There are songs and lessons and reminders. Girls in particular are implored to 'keep sweet.' 

 

A child in a more mainstream family who is not smiling doesn't attract attention; but the ATI child does. If a regular child is a bit down or even sullen, their parents might call them moody, but ATI parents call them sinners. 

 

It's a big part of their belief system. 

 

:ack2: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

[SproutMamaK]

I know how you feel. It's rather similar to how I imagine I would feel if I fell for one of those "you've won a cruise! Confirm by entering your credit card number!" type calls. It's that feeling of facepalming at yourself, feeling that you SHOULD have known better, and that you thought you were smart enough to fall for this nonsense anymore.

[catz]

I've been trying to say this since yesterday, and I still can't get it to come out w/o sounding harsh. I don't mean it to be, but I honestly can't figure out how to say it w/o sounding that way --

 

The only thing that shocks me is that so many people in this day and age believe that what they see on reality TV, or any TV, has any truth in it. Even if this were a good, wholesome family (and I think they're far from that) what you see on TV would very likely have only a small percentage of truth to it.

 

These are parents who churn out child after child to be used as commodities--they market the kids to support their TV show. To make money on them. To gain/hold on to a small amount of fame. Maybe they want to do it for the religious reasons. Or maybe they started out with that idea and then it became all about fame and fortune. I don't know, but I suspect the latter. I do NOT think they're a loving, stable family by any stretch of the imagination. Quite the contrary. IMO loving, stable parents don't stick their kids in front of TV cameras. Loving, stable parents, even most of those who are famous, want their kids to have some semblance of a normal childhood, and that doesn't involve TV cameras. Most famous parents try to shield their kids from cameras and publicity. They don't use them (and continue to churn them out) in order to attract publicity.

 

For Josh to have been forced to spend all his life in a cultish, repressive religious atmosphere and also be forced to spend some of those years living in front of cameras and directors and production crews -- no, it doesn't shock me that something like this happened. I'm not defending him by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's a victim of his parents. All those kids are. Unfortunately, his sisters have been victimized by both their parents and their brother.

Cannot agree with this enough.

[*Lulu*]

Aelwydd, sometimes I don't know if I should put you on "ignore", or sign you up as my new BFF. (LOL)

 

Thank you for this. I've been having a troubling time trying to make sense of it all, and it is hurting my pride to have to say, "y'all were right and I was wrong". Humbling, that.

 

And btw, I'm not trying to out-breed the infidels, just the stupid people. (LOL)

Hon, you'd need a uterus of steel to do that!

 

As someone who has spoken against ATI on this board, I don't think anyone should feel foolish.

 

I was raised in a tradition that promoted many of the same type of theology as ATI. It was packaged differently , but the underlying ideals and Biblical "supports" were similar. A decade ago I would have told you how much I admired the Duggar family. But the longer DH and I struggled through the aftermath of my sexual abuse from within the church we were raised in, the more open my eyes became to the harm from the promoting of this theology.

 

The healthier I become, the more I can see how the sort of theology found in ATI, Focus on the Family, and purity culture create an environment that not only encourages abuse, but protects it and allows it to flourish unchecked. I am heartsick for those children and for the victims. The only good I see in this is 1) the victims may be able to get real treatment/help now and 2) the mask of normalcy and virtue the Duggars provided ATI is damaged.

[gardenmom5]

 .  IMO loving, stable parents don't stick their kids in front of TV cameras.  Loving, stable parents, even most of those who are famous, want their kids to have some semblance of a normal childhood, and that doesn't involve TV cameras.  Most famous parents try to shield their kids from cameras and publicity.  They don't use them (and continue to churn them out) in order to attract publicity.

 

For Josh to have been forced to spend all his life in a cultish, repressive religious atmosphere and also be forced to spend some of those years living in front of cameras and directors and production crews -- no, it doesn't shock me that something like this happened.  I'm not defending him by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's a victim of his parents. All those kids are. Unfortunately, his sisters have been victimized by both their parents and their brother.

 

I have long thought them odd (though in the early days it was, whatever, to each their own) - but when michelle pushed back against the daughter who wanted to go to NYC with "that's not what she meant", that was a major red flag for me that there are serious issues with how they relate.

 

my NPD grandmother used to say "you don't mean that, you don't think that, you don't want that, you don't feel that!" . . . etc. . . . YES I DO!!!!!    it's controlling and is absolutely abhorrent.  as a Christian I find it abhorrent. and EVIL.  I believe one of the greatest gifts of God is ability to choose for ourselves if we will follow Him or not.  - and that kind of "that's not what she meant" is taking control over her adult daughter's choices.  (I have seen this type of behavior often in certain segments of Christianity.  especially the ones who like the pearls and gothard)

 

I haven't read the news reports, or the whole thread - did his wife know about this before they got married and she started having kids with him?  (I know the pearls and gothard strongly encourage women to stay with abusive - of any kind - men.)

[katilac]

 

I haven't read the news reports, or the whole thread - did his wife know about this before they got married and she started having kids with him?  (I know the pearls and gothard strongly encourage women to stay with abusive - of any kind - men.)

 

She has publicly stated that both she and her parents knew.