Foster child in the church nursery need advice

[amyx4]

I had a 22 mos old foster boy in the nursery. He's been with this family apx. 1 year and they are heading towards adoption. I've been the only nursery worker with him for this year for about 1 hour each week. He has never let me change his diaper. Today my dh popped into the nursery for a minute and offered to distract him a bit so I could change a bm diaper.

When the foster mom came to get him, she asked if I had changed him and asked if I had seen his "rash" from his new diaper cream. I said yes to both. When I got home she called me to "confess" that it wasn't a rash but that she had spanked him. I mentioned that dss doesn't allow spanking and she went on to list the things he's been doing. These are all age appropiate behaviors IMO but behaviors her two older bio kids had never done. She also mentioned that he brusies easily and noted that to the social worker at the recent visit. She said the social worker played with the boy and left marks under the arm pits from picking him up.

His bottom had broken blood vessels. The minute I changed his diaper I showed my dh and told him what I thought it was. I don't care for the way this woman raises her two biokids but I've really been able to explain why I don't like it. Mostly just a feeling.

I would really like advice from foster moms. I've read the boards long enough to know that spanking is a hot botton. Please, please help me figure this out without getting the thread locked.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

No opinions or advice, but here are some questions you may want to ask yourself in order to clarify the matter in your own mind.

 

Are you a mandated reporter?

Are you in the foster care system yourself, or otherwise obligated to report?

Do you consider this a form of abuse and feel morally obligated to report?

If you did not know this woman from church, would you report it?

Do you think the behavior of the woman may esclate into something more harmful?

How hard do you think she had to strike the child in order to break blood vessels in his behind, which I assume was diapered at the time of the strike?

Is "how hard was the strike?" relevant?

[phathui5]

When I worked at WIC, I would have reported what you describe.

[Hillary in KS]

I think that you should mention it to the person who is in charge of the nursery at your church. Document what you saw, as well as the conversation with the foster mom.

[ConnieB]

Perhaps you need to discuss this with the pastor of your church to find out if you are considered a "teacher" and therefore are legally required to report any suspicion of abuse. To not to do so can put you into great legal jeopardy. That's about protecting yourself.

 

I would also encourage you to discuss the specifics with your pastor.....perhaps he (or she) can offer you guidance, and/or offer the mother guidance.

 

That all said, my heart says that you should report this to the authorities. This mother has admitted her guilt, it's not a question of whether you believe it was a rash or not, she told you that she spanked this child. And you know that's not allowed in the foster system. It's not whether you think spanking is ok or not....it's that this mother crossed the line and under the eyes of the foster system is abusing this child. If the abuse had been a slap across the face instead of across the bottom would you feel differently? I have spanked my children....not often, and never enough to leave marks....but I also prefer to find another way to discipline than spanking. And if I had to choose, I'd say I was against spanking but am human enough to not be able to live up to my own convictions.

 

I have had Child Protective Services called out to my home by a busybody neighbor. She felt that I was yelling at my child in our backyard and although I didn't spank her I threated her with a spanking. CPS came out listened to my story, spoke with my child (with her dad present with her) and admonished me, offered me parenting classes and closed the case. I was livid, I was scared, I was ashamed, all rolled up in one. It's not an experience I would wish on anyone. But now, with years of reflection there is a larger part of me that is glad that this neighbor cared about my child enough to worry about her. Yeah, a part of me is still angry, and ashamed, but HAD I been abusing my child and everyone who saw/heard evidence of it turned away......where might that child and I be today?

 

This child deserves your protection more than this adult.

[Lovedtodeath]

My DS is 21 months old. Report it.

[Stacy in NJ]

His bottom had broken blood vessels. The minute I changed his diaper I showed my dh and told him what I thought it was.

 

 

Can you be more specific here? He had multiple broken blood vessels on his butt? What did you tell your dh you thought it was? Just broken blood vessels?

 

I don't think any type of normal spanking would leave broken blood vessels. The fact that she was dishonest with you in the nursery and then called to "explain" is suspicious.

 

I would call child protective services and report it. If it's nothing than it can be explained more fully. It could be an unhealthy situation and wouldn't you hate for this child to be placed with this family if it's an abusive situation? He's still quite little and could conceivably be placed in another foster home easily.

[jamnkats]

I had a 22 mos old foster boy in the nursery. He's been with this family apx. 1 year and they are heading towards adoption. I've been the only nursery worker with him for this year for about 1 hour each week. He has never let me change his diaper. Today my dh popped into the nursery for a minute and offered to distract him a bit so I could change a bm diaper.

When the foster mom came to get him, she asked if I had changed him and asked if I had seen his "rash" from his new diaper cream. I said yes to both. When I got home she called me to "confess" that it wasn't a rash but that she had spanked him. I mentioned that dss doesn't allow spanking and she went on to list the things he's been doing. These are all age appropiate behaviors IMO but behaviors her two older bio kids had never done. She also mentioned that he brusies easily and noted that to the social worker at the recent visit. She said the social worker played with the boy and left marks under the arm pits from picking him up.

His bottom had broken blood vessels. The minute I changed his diaper I showed my dh and told him what I thought it was. I don't care for the way this woman raises her two biokids but I've really been able to explain why I don't like it. Mostly just a feeling.

I would really like advice from foster moms. I've read the boards long enough to know that spanking is a hot botton. Please, please help me figure this out without getting the thread locked.

 

Your gut is telling you the truth. You don't need to justify it with your pastor or husband. If you listen to your gut you know what you need to do. Her behavoiur of calling you back to "explain" and offer that the social worker left bruises on the child is very suspicious. i can't imagine WHY she felt the need to share that with you.

 

I think you already know what you need to do. Good luck to you.

[Joanne]

Most readers know I am against spanking.

 

However, I do not think spanking = abuse and I certainly don't think spanking is reportable.

 

If it's *spanking*, it's not abuse. If it's abuse, it's not spanking.

 

IMO, spanking NEVER leaves a mark other than transitory, very short term redness. Anything more = abuse.

 

Her words and her bringing it up make me wary.:confused:

[NorthwestMom]

I completely agree with Joanne.

 

I would report it.

[Harriet Vane]

Definitely report it.

 

As a nursery worker, yes, you are a mandated reporter.

 

It is all too common for mandated reporters (like pastors) to make their own judgment calls or to hold off on reporting because they are not "positive."

 

You KNOW what you saw. You KNOW that as a foster parent she is not allowed to spank. And, you KNOW that what you saw could indicate a bigger problem, such as abuse. You have no way to investigate this properly yourself. Please stop second-guessing. Please call it in.

[clarkacademy]

Down the road say something happens to this child, how bad would you feel? I would report even if the report is unfounded you can rest knowing that you tried. No meaness intended here but too many people let it go. Too many kids are falling through the cracks. Report it. Not for you but for the one who is helpless.

[elise1mds]

I would have reported something like that when I ran our church nursery a few years back. I also know that a friend of mine who does emergency foster care is flat not allowed to spank - not even her own three children. I'm sure things vary by state, but I'd kick myself later if I had found out something had wound up happening to this child. As a foster parent, she's already in contact with the folks running the system, so it should be easy for her to clear up if there's nothing really going on.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

You may not be a mandatory reporter under the law. A quick web search indicates that even if pastors are mandatory reporters, church volunteers and nursery helpers may not be. However your church may have a policy that they voluntarily report suspicians.

 

I think you already have a pretty good idea if you should report or not. You are the one who saw the marks and had the conversation. I could only speculate. (Although it is hard for me to think of a spanking that would be hard enough to leave the mark you describe. If the child really bruises that easily, would it indicate a medical problem that needed to be followed up on?)

 

What I did want to say is that you should definitely have a meeting with the director of your children's ministry/nursery program and possibly your pastor (if the church is small. If it's a really big church then you can probably stay within the children's department.) They need to know about the incident and the conversation. One reason is because this child is in the care of the church on a weekly basis. He is a member of the flock as much as his mom is. Another is in case there is an investigation, there could be an accusation that the spanking occured under the care of the church (in other words, while he was in the nursery with you). A meeting can also clarify for you if the church has a policy on reporting (and help them consider if they need one or if they need to make sure that volunteers know about an existing policy).

 

Actually, as I've typed this out, I think that I am leaning toward asking your children's director to assist you in reporting your concerns. They can take a statement from you and help you call it in or at least document that you reported it to them. At least let them know what occured and what you are doing. (I would be very upset as a member of church staff if this were reported and I were blindsided by it. I would be even more upset if there were a policy to report that wasn't followed.)

[kellycbr]

You may not be a mandatory reporter under the law. A quick web search indicates that even if pastors are mandatory reporters, church volunteers and nursery helpers may not be. However your church may have a policy that they voluntarily report suspicians.

 

I think you already have a pretty good idea if you should report or not. You are the one who saw the marks and had the conversation. I could only speculate. (Although it is hard for me to think of a spanking that would be hard enough to leave the mark you describe. If the child really bruises that easily, would it indicate a medical problem that needed to be followed up on?)

 

What I did want to say is that you should definitely have a meeting with the director of your children's ministry/nursery program and possibly your pastor (if the church is small. If it's a really big church then you can probably stay within the children's department.) They need to know about the incident and the conversation. One reason is because this child is in the care of the church on a weekly basis. He is a member of the flock as much as his mom is. Another is in case there is an investigation, there could be an accusation that the spanking occured under the care of the church (in other words, while he was in the nursery with you). A meeting can also clarify for you if the church has a policy on reporting (and help them consider if they need one or if they need to make sure that volunteers know about an existing policy).

 

Actually, as I've typed this out, I think that I am leaning toward asking your children's director to assist you in reporting your concerns. They can take a statement from you and help you call it in or at least document that you reported it to them. At least let them know what occured and what you are doing. (I would be very upset as a member of church staff if this were reported and I were blindsided by it. I would be even more upset if there were a policy to report that wasn't followed.)

 

I agree. Having said that, I would also tell you to be prepared to follow through reporting it yourself, and doing the right thing, even if your church decides to just pray about it, or 'wait and see.' I've been through this before - different age and circumstance - and had to pursue the right course by myself before everyone realized that they couldn't turn their heads the other way. I can thank the church's attorney for agreeing with me. It is so easy to say that you need to call it in. Reality is, that you're very brave to do it. It is stressful, but I can say in hindsight, I am very proud of myself and everyone who bravely stepped up and took the right course of action.

 

Please call. For this child's sake.

[Mari]

and can tell you to follow your instincts. This is obviously weighing on your mind and you won't feel comfortable until you take action. You need to know, though, that when DSS follows up they are not allowed to tell her who called in the abuse. If you are comfortable, there is nothing wrong with reporting it and then telling her you did it as a requirement for your position in the nursery or simply because you felt it was the right thing to do. Your loyalty must be to the child right now. Believe me, NO SPANKING should ever leave permanent marks such as you described.

 

My experience with abusers is that they often go to great lengths to cover their tracks. The back stories she has given you is putting the blame and shame on a toddler. You can be his voice in this matter. I will even go so far as to tell you that as a Christian (I'm making the leap here since this took place at your church) you are morally obligated to get involved, with or without your supervisor's consent.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Two reportable issues here:

 

1) foster kids should not be spanked PERIOD.

2) lasting marks are a sign of abuse, not discipline.

 

This child can't help himself. He is depending on you and others in his life.

 

I worked childcare. I was very close with this family, babysitting otherwise for them also. The 3yo (sp needs) came in one day with marks on her backside. I told my director who immediately called her fostermom. The director bought the fostermom's story. I did not. I told my director that it was our responsibility to report anything suspicious. She disagreed with my decision on this. I called CPS anyway.

 

It would have been wrong for you to call before this incident just because you didn't like her general parenting. It would be wrong for you to call for a normal spanking of bio/adopted children. But this woman crossed a couple lines. She is NOT to be striking this child AT ALL. And leaving marks is abuse legally speaking regardless.

 

And she had a choice. She could have talked to other moms, fostermoms, the social worker, online, support group, etc in order to figure out what is going on with this child and to learn something appropriate to handle it. In fact, good discipline almost always works better, faster, and easier than spanking anyway! She chose to abuse the child instead.

 

I hope the best for this little boy.

 

ETA: I started reading through the other posts and am very sad. Multiple people suggested to find out if you are a mandated reporter which would make you obligated to report it. You are OBLIGATED to report anything legally considered abuse (doesn't matter if YOU consider it abuse or not!) as a HUMAN BEING. How sad that a person off the street wouldn't protect a helpless child!

Edited February 9, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[JFSinIL]

Most readers know I am against spanking.

 

However, I do not think spanking = abuse and I certainly don't think spanking is reportable.

 

If it's *spanking*, it's not abuse. If it's abuse, it's not spanking.

 

IMO, spanking NEVER leaves a mark other than transitory, very short term redness. Anything more = abuse.

 

Her words and her bringing it up make me wary.:confused:

 

I am with Joanne on this one. Report it. Let the professionals check it out and a doctor decide if the kid "bruises easily", too.

[dawn of ns]

I'm not a spanker but like Joanne, I don't think it means abuse. But what I find troubling is that the mom knows there are strict conditions that come with fostering and she isn't following them. If she can't follow the most basic rules then she needs to be reported. Even if it was a light swat and never left bruises, she's violating the commitment she made when she took that child into her house.

[Snickerdoodle]

The mantra I am always telling my children is:

 

Do the right thing.

Do your best.

 

 

Listen, you've expressed some concerns here. Now I am asking you: What is the right thing to do?

[dawn of ns]

 

And she had a choice. She could have talked to other moms, fostermoms, the social worker, online, support group, etc in order to figure out what is going on with this child and to learn something appropriate to handle it. In fact, good discipline almost always works better, faster, and easier than spanking anyway! She chose to abuse the child instead.

 

 

Thank you. I wanted to make this point but couldn't figure out how. In every way she's proven how unsuitable she is to provide foster care. Even if she was given every benefit of the doubt, maybe she was tired and frustrated and never did that before and likely never would again, she didn't reach out for help and then lied to cover it up. She doesn't have the character or judgement to foster.

[Carrie12345]

Most readers know I am against spanking.

 

However, I do not think spanking = abuse and I certainly don't think spanking is reportable.

 

If it's *spanking*, it's not abuse. If it's abuse, it's not spanking.

 

IMO, spanking NEVER leaves a mark other than transitory, very short term redness. Anything more = abuse.

 

Her words and her bringing it up make me wary.:confused:

:iagree:

I *have* spanked my children, and hated myself for it afterward. But the idea of striking my own 21mo, let alone leaving lasting marks, just makes me physically ill.

 

If all were well, I doubt she'd have brought the subject up.

[katilac]

I'm wondering if the foster mom doesn't, on some level, WANT to be 'found out' and the adoption prevented?

 

She brought him to the nursery, knowing there was a chance someone would change his diaper and see the marks. She asked if he had been changed, going so far as to bring up the marks herself. When you only confirmed that, yes, you had changed him and seen the marks, she follows up with a phone call that ensures you know the marks were from a spanking.

 

I don't take calling CPS lightly, but hitting a baby hard enought to leave lasting marks is very disturbing. As you noted, she is well aware that she is not allowed to hit him at all. I have a child who also marks very easily, but the marks also tend to fade rather quickly. No matter how fair or sensitive the skin, a surface mark is very different from a lasting bruise.

[amyx4]

I'm so grateful that each of you took the time to respond. Your responses have given me both insight and courage. And yes, doing the hard thing is never easy. It's a very small chuch.

[LNC]

deleted

Edited February 9, 2009 by LNC

[dawn of ns]

By they way, I am a foster adopt mom. This thread has broken my heart. I want to see every foster child adopted into a loving, Christian home. I wish we could take in more children. I've even heard Christians wary of the foster system bc of these types of issues. I say, let's support the families in our churches who are pursuing foster adoption.

 

She's violated her commitment to the state and the child and then attempted to cover it up. I'm not sure why the fact that's she's Christian should entitle her to some special lenience on this matter.

 

As for the idea that the OP should have a talk with her, that really isn't her role and would effectively have her stepping in to cover up a violation of the fostering agreement the mother has with the state or county.

 

The foster mom is not the legal guardian. The state is. And the state has a right to know when it's (our) children are being hit just like any of us parents do. Would you counsel a friend who'd seen a neighbour's babysitter hit one of the neighbour's children to have a chat with the babysitter and not mention the matter to the parent?

[bettyandbob]

I think you have to report this. A simple spanking would not leave marks like that. I guess there are degrees of spanking. I'm not bothered by the concept of spanking. I guess the actual application is a problem But when I think of spanking I think of the quick swat on the rear I might see someone give to a kid who runs into the street or some other dangerous thing. I wouldn't think that quick swat would leave marks, certainly not through a diaper.

 

If there are marks, then it's not a quick spank. The person who leaves marks is hitting and hitting hard. If marks are being left then the child's pants and diaper are being taken off to spank --that's what I got sometimes as a kid, it hurts, it stings, and it's a terrible thing to do. Or the woman is hitting the kid even harder--very hard, because I can't believe you can easily make a mark through a diaper. A diaper is a big cushion--a few years ago a girl was dropped from a third floor apartment because of fire, she landed on her butt in a diaper and was fine.

 

If this woman is stressed by this child's behavior, then she shouldn't adopt. Kids who end up in foster care may have behavior related to biological history or exposure to substances in the womb. People who foster should know this and be equipped to deal with the behaviors. If she is stressed by having a third child, then she shouldn't adopt.

[Sweetpeach]

There are no shades of gray with this situation you've brought to the board.

[bumbledeb]

There are no shades of gray with this situation you've brought to the board.

 

:iagree:This is exactly what I was just thinking.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Wow! A red spot from a recent spanking is not a bruise. A stinging swat on the bottom can leave a red mark for a bit, but not a bruise. There is a huge difference. Talk to her and her husband. Tell her if spanking a foster child is illegal in your state, it is a lack of integrity to break the law. To wait on spanking until the child is adopted if that is her conviction for discipline methods. Talk to your pastor. Calling DSS on a fellow chuch member is a serious thing. You may prevent the adoption of this child into a loving Christian home, that happens to believe in spanking. But, many loving homes do too. They just need to wait until the adoption is finalized.

 

By they way, I am a foster adopt mom. This thread has broken my heart. I want to see every foster child adopted into a loving, Christian home. I wish we could take in more children. I've even heard Christians wary of the foster system bc of these types of issues. I say, let's support the families in our churches who are pursuing foster adoption.

 

First, the FOSTERmom mentioned that the child bruises easily. Second, unless the spanking happened right before walking in the door, a mark shouldn't be left on a toddler. Third, she is either hitting EXTREMELY hard (in which case, we also need to worry about breaking bones, dislocating joints, etc) or she's taking his diaper off the hit him which has other problems in this situation. Fourth, she is LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT!

 

Add: Her hitting the state's kid when the state said "don't" is akin to her hitting one of MY kids (and I would DEFINITELY not give permission for ANYONE to hit my kid). People should not be hitting someone else's child anyway, but especially not when they signed papers saying they wouldn't!

 

AND...a 2yr old (and I'm assuming fairly healthy and such) would likely very easily get another home, one that maybe wouldn't break the law, ABUSE the child (because lasting marks IS abuse), etc.

 

I don't consider someone a good Christian because they attend church. I don't consider people that abuse babies (again, lasting mark denotes ABUSE not spanking) good Christians or parents. I don't consider people that break the law (unless that law goes against God in some way) good people.

 

The woman was WRONG in many ways. I hope she generally is a good person, but I'm not about to support the idea that people who go to church are good people because they believe in God so who cares what they do, especially when what they do is illegal and abusive.

[LNC]

I'm deleting my post. I'm guessingthe woman spanks her foster son bc she's on track to adopt. So, she's treating him like her own child bc she loves him. She needs to be told to obey the law while he is still a foster child. I didn't say Christians are above the law or any such nonsense. I'm thankful many of you are passionate about foster children. Maybe some of you will consider becoming foster parents...

[StaceyinLA]

Though possibly heart-wrenching, the decision here is actually a simple one. The child deserves to be protected - period.

 

First I would wonder WHY he doesn't want you changing his diaper. Something is obviously going on there. Secondly, the mom's behavior with the questioning about it, then the "rash" story, then the phone call. Thirdly, the blatant refusal to accept what she knows are the rules from CPS (especially with this very young child who has already been through so much). Finally, broken blood vessels? Inexcusable to me!

 

The situation is clear to me. The child needs to be the first priority and that means a call to CPS is warranted.

[Lovedtodeath]

First I would wonder WHY he doesn't want you changing his diaper.

This is breaking my heart! Oh we need an end to these atrocities. :(

 

I *have* spanked my children, and hated myself for it afterward. But the idea of striking my own 21mo, let alone leaving lasting marks, just makes me physically ill.

 

:iagree:

 

Pamela, well said! I am glad you found the words, because I couldn't.

[Carrie12345]

I'm deleting my post. I'm guessingthe woman spanks her foster son bc she's on track to adopt. So, she's treating him like her own child bc she loves him. She needs to be told to obey the law while he is still a foster child. I didn't say Christians are above the law or any such nonsense. I'm thankful many of you are passionate about foster children. Maybe some of you will consider becoming foster parents...

 

As a non-Christian who doesn't advocate hitting babies, I'm not feeling very encouraged to do so right now. :(

[LNC]

Carrie -

Why not?

[LND1218]

Here are my thoughts....

 

I absolutely would NOT report unless you actually think abuse is happening. You know this family - you know this child ~ do you think they are abusing him??

 

If you report, it's is highly likely he will be removed. He will lose his family and the only parents he knows. They will also never be allowed to adopt or foster again. If they are abusing him, this is the right action.

 

But if they just made a mistake or used bad judgement?

 

What do you believe about spanking? Do you consider it abuse? I agree that they shouldn't spank since they aren't allowed to. I understand that as a parent who has adopted. It's what you have to do. They were without a doubt wrong, but is it enough to lose their child?

 

Before I would even think of reporting and having someone's child taken from them, I would talk to the mom and dad. I would say "Hey, I know you aren't supposed to do this....etc."

 

I also have to say that spankings that leave marks DO NOT alway equal abuse. I have skin that marks and bruises easily. My dh grabbed my arm once (not in a mean way and frankly not even hard enough to hurt me!) and left a hand print - it was there for 3 day.

 

I used to have marks left on my behind - my parents were never even close to abusive. My toddler has bruised me, caused broken blood vessels and marks that lasted for days. It's just my skin... I have a ds who is the same way.

 

I have 4 children. And I spank them all (not all as in all 4 - one is an infant by all as in the ones I spank) the same. Same intensity and my ds who takes after me has had marks on him bum that looked red and purplish. It takes almost nothing to leave a mark on him. Dh plays rough with him - he's a rough and tumble boys and dh has bruised him without every hurting him. Generally, I would agree that spanking shouldn't leave marks. But sometimes with some people it happens. Having been on the receiving end of the spanking ~ I assure you it wasn't abuse, but I had marks for days.

 

But there are some things to consider - was it a one time thing? Did they do something rash? Did they make a mistake? Does this child really have sensitive skin? Are they parents who just used bad judgement? Is this situation worth having this child taken from them? Is this enough for this little baby to lose his mom and dad over??

 

If you believe they are abusing him, yes.

 

If they made a mistake, think about it. Understand - please understand...They don't treat foster parents the same way they treat bio parents. They won't have a chance to get him back - they will not have a say or any rights. He will be taken away, and they will never be allowed to foster or adopt again - period! A bio parent can beat their child and get them back after help but a foster parent can't! Foster parents sacrifice so much yet have no rights!!!

 

Pray about it and think it through before you do something you can't take back that could harm this child far more than one spanking even if that spanking was too hard.

 

(I do believe in reporting abuse, but I wouldn't report a spanking.)

Edited February 9, 2009 by Steph

[phathui5]

Does this child really have sensitive skin?

 

That's up to a doctor and CPS to decide. Reporting suspected abuse is what gets CPS to investigate. It's not the OP's job to make those decisions.

[Harriet Vane]

I absolutely would NOT report unless you actually think abuse is happening. You know this family - you know this child ~ do you think they are abusing him??

 

If you report, it's is highly likely he will be removed. He will lose his family and the only parents he knows. They will also never be allowed to adopt or foster again. If they are abusing him, this is the right action.

 

But if they just made a mistake or used bad judgement?

 

 

I have to respectfully but vehemently disagree.

 

First of all, it is all too common for people to try to investigate on their own. The reality is that most people who do so really do not have meaningful access to the child, AND abusers are better at hiding abuse, AND these amateur investigators most often just do not know how to investigate or how to interpret what they see.

 

Second, your perception of the system is not accurate. The procedure for investigating foster parents is more elaborate than what you have described here. A concerned hotline call does NOT necessarily mean the foster parent loses all--it means there will be an investigation. If the report is substantiated, then that person should NOT be fostering, and if it is not, then the report will be unfounded.

 

Finally, it really doesn't matter what we think of spanking or not. (FWIW I have spanked my children, in love and with control.) It doesn't matter, because the LAW states that foster parents absolutely cannot spank. There are really good reasons for this law, and foster parents have been trained to other methods of discipline before they are licensed. There really is absolutely NO reason why a foster parent cannot abide by the law, especially for a child this young.

 

I advocate calling it in.

[SonshineLearner]

Most readers know I am against spanking.

 

However, I do not think spanking = abuse and I certainly don't think spanking is reportable.

 

If it's *spanking*, it's not abuse. If it's abuse, it's not spanking.

 

IMO, spanking NEVER leaves a mark other than transitory, very short term redness. Anything more = abuse.

 

Her words and her bringing it up make me wary.:confused:

 

Ok, I'm gonna just say that a tiny bruise is not necessarily abuse. I have sat for plenty of children who were spanked what most of you all would consider "plenty hard" and they had no bruises and some children just bruise easy. In other words, is it the strike that should be regulated or the bruising of skin? Of course, I understand that one can't run around measuring the strength of the strike.

 

How did you end the conversation? What did the bruise look like? If it looked like a rash that's kinda weird.

 

I don't necessarily think I would turn this in to anyone, but rather I would talk to my pastor, if I had any misgivings.

 

And yes, I've been a mandatory reporter and we've finished up all the foster/adoption classes.

 

I would wonder "WHY" she was finding it necessary to spank a 21 month old. I have "spanked" a child that age, but in other situations been with other people's children for long periods of time without spanking at all. (While nannying and at a younger age babysitting.) So, I know you don't HAVE to spank, unless you decide to...

 

Would she find relief from taking a Love and Logic class? Is she open to discussing alternatives? Does she need some official or unofficial respite care? If it were my child in foster care (God forbid!) I would not want my child removed for a very small bruise, if you can tell that she loves the child and has it's best interest at heart! I would want her to accept training and mentoring for dealing with my child. I believe that every way you deal with situations has good and bad ramifications, and I think that you have a right and duty to weigh them. I don't believe that there's a straight across board to decide when to tell authorities.

 

Carrie:-)

 

 

 

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

 

Would she find relief from taking a Love and Logic class? Is she open to discussing alternatives? Does she need some official or unofficial respite care? If it were my child in foster care (God forbid!) I would not want my child removed for a very small bruise, if you can tell that she loves the child and has it's best interest at heart! I would want her to accept training and mentoring for dealing with my child. I believe that every way you deal with situations has good and bad ramifications, and I think that you have a right and duty to weigh them. I don't believe that there's a straight across board to decide when to tell authorities.

 

Carrie:-)

 

 

 

you offer some good advice, but, actually it is "straight across board to decide when to tell authorities." If one is a mandated reporter (in some states, anyone who takes care of children in any manner is a mandated reporter) you are required to report if you suspect abuse. It is not the reporter's job to determine whether or not abuse has occurred. That is left to professionals. We can debate the "professionalism" of those professionals as much as we want, but the law is the law is the law.

[LND1218]

I have to respectfully but vehemently disagree.

 

First of all, it is all too common for people to try to investigate on their own. The reality is that most people who do so really do not have meaningful access to the child, AND abusers are better at hiding abuse, AND these amateur investigators most often just do not know how to investigate or how to interpret what they see.

 

Second, your perception of the system is not accurate. The procedure for investigating foster parents is more elaborate than what you have described here. A concerned hotline call does NOT necessarily mean the foster parent loses all--it means there will be an investigation. If the report is substantiated, then that person should NOT be fostering, and if it is not, then the report will be unfounded.

 

Finally, it really doesn't matter what we think of spanking or not. (FWIW I have spanked my children, in love and with control.) It doesn't matter, because the LAW states that foster parents absolutely cannot spank. There are really good reasons for this law, and foster parents have been trained to other methods of discipline before they are licensed. There really is absolutely NO reason why a foster parent cannot abide by the law, especially for a child this young.

 

I advocate calling it in.

 

The simple fact is that the mother admitted to spanking. It's not like she (OP) simply saw the mark and jumped to a conclusion. The mother admitted it.

 

That is grounds in most locations for immediate removal of the child. It doesn't matter whether they substantiated abuse or not. The fact of the matter is they spanked a child they shouldn't have and that child will be removed unless the parents lie about it and the marks are gone.

 

We have been through the foster system. We were foster parents for 2 years. And we have seen this happen to a foster family. I have seen kids removed for less from foster families.

 

All I am saying is if there is no reason to suspect abuse, think it through before you report a spanking because if it's proven that they spanked him, he will be removed from them. And is that worth his being yanked from another home.

 

I agree if they are abusers they shouldnt' be fostering.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Steph

[LND1218]

I have to add that I whole heartly agree that foster parents shouldn't spank. I am not defending this family's action at all!!

 

But I am simply pointing out that this child could lose his parents over this. That is not something to be taken lightly.

 

Amyx4 - if you wonder how your locality would respond simply call and ask what would happen if a foster parent were to spank a child. Then you will know and can decide what to do from there.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

The simple fact is that the mother admitted to spanking. It's not like she (OP) simply saw the mark and jumped to a conclusion. The mother admitted it.

 

That is grounds in most locations for immediate removal of the child. It doesn't matter whether they substantiated abuse or not. The fact of the matter is they spanked a child they shouldn't have and that child will be removed unless the parents lie about it and the marks are gone.

 

We have been through the foster system. We were foster parents for 2 years. And we have seen this happen to a foster family. I have seen kids removed for less from foster families.

 

All I am saying is if there is no reason to suspect abuse, think it through before you report a spanking because if it's proven that they spanked him, he will be removed from them. And is that worth his being yanked from another home.

 

I agree if they are abusers they shouldnt' be fostering.

I am not going to debate whether or not spanking is abuse, because that issue is moot in this discussion, I think. The real issue is that a foster family who agreed in writing not to spank a foster child did not keep their agreement.

Could it be a one-time thing? Possibly.

Could this family be a wonderful, loving family? Surely.

Should they be foster parents? Perhaps not if they cannot abide by the rules known and agreed to beforehand.

 

The issue the OP is struggling with is, should she report this. My opinion (and only my opinion, which is pretty worthless since I am not known to the OP) is that if she suspects abuse, she should report.

 

We all have that little feeling, or little voice, inside of us - in our gut or in our heart - that tells us when a situation is not what it seems or that something is just not right. If the OP's little voice is ringing some alarm bells (and it seems as if it is, or she would just have shrugged it off and forgotten the incident), then perhaps she needs to listen to her gut.

 

If the OP reports and this boy gets removed from this foster family, it will not be the OP's fault. The fault will lie squarely upon the spanker's shoulders.

[dawn of ns]

I am not going to debate whether or not spanking is abuse, because that issue is moot in this discussion, I think. The real issue is that a foster familywho agreed in writing not to spank a foster child did not keep their agreement. who agreed in writing not to spank a foster child did not keep their agreement.

 

Agreed. Everything else is beside the point. These people entered into an arangement with very specific terms and obviously, those terms have already been violated.

 

That's the only issue and there's no wiggle room there.

[kalanamak]

She said the social worker played with the boy and left marks under the arm pits from picking him up.

 

I don't know the laws for foster parents, but if I were any kind of parent and my child showed this blood vessel breakage, I'd be darn sure not spanking them, if only to avoid getting in trouble for it. She knows spanks look like this and still does it? She's a fool or a rogue and has the wrong job. I would report this. She needs to get out of fostering.

 

This kid also needs a medical eval for easy bruising, if indeed this is happening.

[Carol in Cal.]

...whose son dislocated his shoulder in some kind of fall when he was pretty young.

 

Fast forward 2 years...the family is in a hurry to get out the door. He doesn't want to go wherever they are headed or something, and hides under the bed. His father pulls him out by the arm, and his shoulder dislocates again.

 

They take him to the doctor. Doctor knows the family, knows they are not about to hurt this child or any other, pops the shoulder back in, reminds them that it's susceptable, sends them on home. But the nurse reports this.

 

Because it has happened more than once, they have to go to some CPS proceeding to clear themselves. It ends up costing them quite a bit in fees and such, but they clear themselves. But they are really, really ticked.

 

My view? It's too bad that this happened to them, and they should have been able to clear themselves more easily and quickly. However, they also should doggone well have remembered that this kid had a susceptable shoulder and not pulled him by the arm! That's just crazy! So, I wish that they had been able to clear themselves more easily and cheaply, but I also wish that it hadn't taken this action to convince them to be more careful. They should have known better in the first place.

 

In your friend's case, that last line applies, in spades. She should have known better in the first place. Especially since she knows (if in fact this is true, and not just some excuse) that the child bruises easily. But even if not, she knows better than to hit him. And she should know how to manage him without doing so. Period. She said she would, she probably had to swear that she would, and she isn't. That's not right.

 

Who but you will stand up for this child? Who?

[Joanne]

Hmmm.

 

Leaving any kind of longer than minutes mark on a diapered bottom is *more* than a spanking.

 

Spanking a child who still uses diapers on a bare bottom presents another level of concern.

 

Either way:

 

It has left lasting marks - not accetable

 

It is against regulations for this foster parent; regulations they agreed to.

[SonshineLearner]

I....

The issue the OP is struggling with is, should she report this. My opinion (and only my opinion, which is pretty worthless since I am not known to the OP) is that if she suspects abuse, she should report.

 

We all have that little feeling, or little voice, inside of us - in our gut or in our heart - that tells us when a situation is not what it seems or that something is just not right. If the OP's little voice is ringing some alarm bells (and it seems as if it is, or she would just have shrugged it off and forgotten the incident), then perhaps she needs to listen to her gut.

 

If the OP reports and this boy gets removed from this foster family, it will not be the OP's fault. The fault will lie squarely upon the spanker's shoulders.

 

 

I do agree that she should never have put you in this position and you can only do what you believe is best. I'm not saying that you shouldn't turn her in...only that I would weigh everything, personally. I would consider the facts and make sure that I felt in good conscience that I was making the best decision.

 

If I were she, I would not put someone else in this position. I would not have chosen to spank. But since she did, I would have to look at the evidence, because I've met some really not with it social workers. (And yes, I know there are some great ones, too!)

 

Remember, the decision will affect YOU (you emotionally and the CHILD emotionally and perhaps physically and those are the only two people I would consider:-)

 

If you choose to turn them in, then after the call, I think you owe it to the church to let your pastor know.

 

Carrie:-)

Edited February 10, 2009 by NayfiesMama

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

If you choose to turn them in, then after the call, I think you owe it to the church to let your pastor know.

 

Carrie:-)

I have to disagree here. There are reasons why reports can be made anonymous. Of course, it is up to the OP, but I can see in a social situation, if the OP were known to be the one who turned an upstanding family in and that family lost a foster child, factions would develop with some people siding for the OP and some siding for the poor, mistreated family. Of course, I'm exaggerating, but some things were meant to be private.

[CactusPair]

Report it. Let the appropriate authorities assess the situation and make informed decisions.

 

I wouldn't tell the pastor. I don't see the need for him or anyone but DSS to get involved right now.