Heather in Neverland Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Here's the situation: There is a man that works with my dh. He has never been to church and in fact has been semi-involved in paganism for a few years. Well, for the last couple of months my dh has been witnessing to him about Christ, praying for him and gave him a bible. Last week, this man gave his life to Christ!! He threw out all his books on paganism, has been reading the bible voraciously and is a totally different person! And he wants to be baptized right away. He has read most of the new testament in the last week or so and read the examples of people repenting, believing and being baptized and wants to follow that. He feels very strongly about having it done right away. Since he has no church he asked if he could come with us this weekend. We said of course. Then he asked if our pastor would baptize him this weekend. Well, we have only been to this church for a few weeks and I didn't know the answer to the question but I couldn't imagine why a pastor would say no to this. So I called the church and the secretary told me they only baptize people who are planning on becoming members of that church. Where is the biblical model for THAT? Is that common practice? I found it to be very disturbing. Can someone help me out on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I wonder if that rule is denominational or just the preference of your pastor? I have not heard of this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 That policy is true of every church I've been to...I've never belonged to a church that would baptize someone that wasn't planning to become a member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerstone Classical Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Matthew 3:5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. By these two verses, it seems that being baptized follows repentance. Isn't that what baptism is? An outward profession of a new life in Christ? A symbol of the washing of water (regeneration). With all due respect, I don't see why any minister would hinge any conditions on someone wanting to be baptized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 My husband would have baptised him. Gladly. Then he would have invited him to come to church! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 going out on a limb here....Find a local Christian Church. They will baptize right away without becoming a member of the church. Make sure the name is Christian Church because some churches do claim they are NON-denominational Christian Church but do not practice baptism for repentence. We have two churches in our area that claim to be non-denominational Christian Church but baptize for membership. The one I go to and numerous others that I have attended practice baptism as repentence. If your dh is a baptized believer then there is NO REASON why he can't baptize your friend. An immersed Christian can baptize others. It doesn't have to be related to church. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I have friends that belong to a Lutheran church which practices infant baptism. He came to my and was baptised. He still attend his church and is very active in it. My church apparently did not have a problem. Plus, where is it written that you have to be baptised in a church or by a pastor even. In my church we practice a 'believer's baptism' and when children want to be baptised typically it is their father who does it. We have done it in rivers, pools and I have even heard of people using bathtubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelaniePA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Matthew 3:5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. By these two verses, it seems that being baptized follows repentance. Isn't that what baptism is? An outward profession of a new life in Christ? A symbol of the washing of water (regeneration). With all due respect, I don't see why any minister would hinge any conditions on someone wanting to be baptized. :iagree: This is what my church follows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 It is off-putting in the face of your friend's enthusiasm and in our do-it-now culture. But in the early days of Christianity, one was expected to be part of the church body (standing in the back, thank you) for three YEARS of worship and teaching before a baptism. So it's not all that bad, actually. But in the NT, people were often baptized immediately. How (and why) did things change? And which model do we follow? The one set by the apostles or the one set by later church fathers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 My children were baptized at 2 different Catholic Churches (we moved) and we had to be member of each church before they were baptized. The first church, I belonged to since I was born but the new church didn't give us any difficulty in joining. I gave them my baptism certificate and confirmation date (signed by old church) and that was it, I was a member. So, even though I don't think a church should turn anyone down for baptism, it is probably not a huge deal to become a member. And he could always quit after the baptism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 This may be a common practice with some churches. However, if you go back to the Biblical model, I would say no---baptism was often immediate following conversion. I personally don't see any reason for placing additional requirements upon someone who has made a complete change like this in their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 If baptism is supposed to be (or to testify to, depending on your denomination) your entry into the Body of Christ, it should accompany an entry into a local gathering of that Body. I wouldn't express it as a "condition" of baptism, per se, but as something that probably should be thought out before committing to baptism. If he just hadn't given much thought to it, and was just so excited that he wanted to be baptized RIGHT NOW, I would happily have agreed to do it, and counseled him that he needed to get serious about finding and joining a local gathering of the Body of Christ so that he could grow in his faith. And if he had expressed the intention to join some other church, I would have gently suggested that he be baptized there, although I would not have refused if he had expressed a strong desire to be baptized at the church of the friend who had midwifed his conversion. I doubt I would have put it as baldly as your pastor apparently did, but I would probably not have performed the baptism if your friend expressed the intention NOT to join ANY local church at all. Accepting Christ but refusing to associate with His Body is a sign that there is still an impediment to faith somewhere, and I would want, at the very least, to have some pastoral counseling with the guy before administering the sacrament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diane Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 That's not common here. My parents were Baptized in the ocean along with my son and my pastors knew they belonged and loved their current church. Their church wasn't having a Baptism anytime soon, so they decided to be Baptized with my son. It was incredible, and many were not from my church. We all praised and thanked God that we could be there to witness it. I'm so happy to hear this about your friend. God Bless him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 But in the NT, people were often baptized immediately. How (and why) did things change? And which model do we follow? The one set by the apostles or the one set by later church fathers? We should follow the model of the apostles. That is what my dh and I practice so we go to a New Testament church called a Christian Church. Also we believe that when you are baptized you become a member of the LORD's church not the local church. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hen Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 we would baptize immediately if that was what the person wanted, we would have filled our tub and done it right then if that was what the friend wanted, dh would have done it-and no, he's not a pastor. I think it's kind of sad that membership is so important to that church that they would not baptize someone. wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Here's the situation: There is a man that works with my dh. He has never been to church and in fact has been semi-involved in paganism for a few years. Well, for the last couple of months my dh has been witnessing to him about Christ, praying for him and gave him a bible. Last week, this man gave his life to Christ!! He threw out all his books on paganism, has been reading the bible voraciously and is a totally different person! And he wants to be baptized right away. He has read most of the new testament in the last week or so and read the examples of people repenting, believing and being baptized and wants to follow that. He feels very strongly about having it done right away. Since he has no church he asked if he could come with us this weekend. We said of course. Then he asked if our pastor would baptize him this weekend. Well, we have only been to this church for a few weeks and I didn't know the answer to the question but I couldn't imagine why a pastor would say no to this. So I called the church and the secretary told me they only baptize people who are planning on becoming members of that church. Where is the biblical model for THAT? Is that common practice? I found it to be very disturbing. Can someone help me out on this? Churches are chock full of unbiblical policies. Why not have a gathering at a local pool or other body of water and have your dh do the baptism? Nothing biblical about only pastors being able to baptize. (ps, my dh is a pastor : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hmmmm. I and my children were baptized in the Episcopal church and even though we attended the church we were never asked to sign something saying we were members. The only thing was that baptism ceremonies were only done on certain holy days (in cases where it was not an emergency situation). We did have to attend sessions in order to prepare for the ceremony. I think we had to wait about 2 months and the ceremonies took place on Christmas Eve. Another big day for baptisms is Easter, and there are many more throughout the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapphireStitch Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I don't think our pastor would baptize a person immediately under those circumstances, either. Our church would not require membership for baptism, BTW. But our pastor and leaders would want to be able to meet with the man, go over Scripture with him, make sure he had a good understanding of salvation, and thoroughly explain baptism to him. Just based on this thread, one can see that there are different views of what baptism is/does in the Christian's life. A pastor who just up and baptized someone without knowing what they'd been taught and what they believed could be perpetuating bad doctrine or some sort of mysticism instead of the truth of the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne J Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) I don't really understand the "official" membership requirement, but I do know that the baptismal ceremony for some churches includes promises made by the congregation to the baptisized. The congregation promises to be responsible for the new Christian, (in terms of what is in modern Christian lingo called "accountability.") I have heard pastors express concern that the congregation takes on a responsibility for the baptised person, and that he or she (the pastor) needs to feel that the promise can be fulfilled. (ie, the baptised person has to remain around) I am not sure if there is any Scriptural support for these promises or not. That being said, anyone who wants it should be baptised as soon as possible, in my opinion. Edited January 16, 2009 by urpedonmommy bad grammar--ack! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch immediately. ACTS 8:36-39 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See here is water, what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Refusing to baptize a young believer reminds me of the Pharisees' traditions, which Jesus said were "making the Word of God of none effect." I also believe any believing man has the right to baptize a young believer, not just a pastor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanda7 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Some churches believe baptism is to "join" the local church, while others believe it is so God can add you to His church. Our preacher would briefly talk to someone wishing to be baptized to make sure the person knew what he/she was doing, but that would be the only condition he would place on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 ......So I called the church and the secretary told me they only baptize people who are planning on becoming members of that church. Where is the biblical model for THAT? Is that common practice? I found it to be very disturbing. Can someone help me out on this? I'm new here, so I'm hesitant to join in a conversation on such a sensitive topic, but something does come to mind as relates to your question that hasn't been brought up yet, so I thought I'd just mention it. I'm obviously not a member of the church in question so I don't really know what they base their policies on. I also wouldn't venture to guess what constitutes "common practice", considering the wide variation that exists among the plethora of Christian churches. But you asked where they might find a biblical model for baptising only people who plan on becoming members of that church. Without judging whether they are right or wrong, and keeping in mind that Bible verses are often interpreted very differently from one church to another, this passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 12 comes to mind: "12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." If this church interprets this passage in terms of the body representing the individual, local church, and they interpret being baptized as entrance into the body, then it would make sense for them only to baptized "into" their church body, those who actually plan on being a part of their church body. And again, I don't pretend to know what they base their policy on, but this seems like a possibility for a biblical basis for such a policy. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melhouse Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 going out on a limb here....Find a local Christian Church. They will baptize right away without becoming a member of the church. Make sure the name is Christian Church because some churches do claim they are NON-denominational Christian Church but do not practice baptism for repentence. We have two churches in our area that claim to be non-denominational Christian Church but baptize for membership. The one I go to and numerous others that I have attended practice baptism as repentence. If your dh is a baptized believer then there is NO REASON why he can't baptize your friend. An immersed Christian can baptize others. It doesn't have to be related to church. Holly I would agree with this advice. I belong to the Christian Church as well, and I know any preachers I've known would be glad to baptize him. Also, I agree that your husband could do it. An indoor pool, maybe? HTH, Melissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I was baptized only about 6 weeks after I accepted Christ and gave up paganism. However, I did join the church and they have been a major blessing to me. I was not a member of the church yet though when they baptized me, I think if I had been given a condition like that it would have pushed me back away kwim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 This would bother me a great deal. Probably enough to leave the church even. The body of Christ is not one congregation or one building. I could understand wanting to talk with him and make sure he really understood what he was doing but not denying baptism altogether. He is not being baptized into that congregation. he is being baptized into Christ. I suggest your dh find a local pool (rivers are a bit cold right now) and do the honors, and what an honor it would be. Invite any friends who would rejoice with him and leave it at that. btw, since it was the secretary you talked to I might talk to the actual pastor and explain the situation. I think extra-biblical rules like pressure to officially join the church could be very off-putting for a new believer so I wouldn't want that brought up at all really. If the pastor really won't do it I would leave the church. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 If baptism is supposed to be (or to testify to, depending on your denomination) your entry into the Body of Christ, it should accompany an entry into a local gathering of that Body. I wouldn't express it as a "condition" of baptism, per se, but as something that probably should be thought out before committing to baptism. If he just hadn't given much thought to it, and was just so excited that he wanted to be baptized RIGHT NOW, I would happily have agreed to do it, and counseled him that he needed to get serious about finding and joining a local gathering of the Body of Christ so that he could grow in his faith. And if he had expressed the intention to join some other church, I would have gently suggested that he be baptized there, although I would not have refused if he had expressed a strong desire to be baptized at the church of the friend who had midwifed his conversion. I doubt I would have put it as baldly as your pastor apparently did, but I would probably not have performed the baptism if your friend expressed the intention NOT to join ANY local church at all. Accepting Christ but refusing to associate with His Body is a sign that there is still an impediment to faith somewhere, and I would want, at the very least, to have some pastoral counseling with the guy before administering the sacrament. except that refusing to sign an official membership that expects you to confess some things that you might not believe does not necessarily mean that you never associate w/ that Body of believers. I attended a lutheran church for years but would not become a member because I disagreed w/ a few key doctrinal issues. i still loved teh people and Bible studies tho :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Here's the situation: ....he wants to be baptized right away. unless he insists on being baptized by a preacher, I'd suggest baptizing him yourself. I have a different interpretation of baptism that discounts the water so I probably wouldn't do it, but I'd happily point him to someone that could empathize w/ his convictions. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'm Episcopalian. My current parish and the previous parish would baptize him. I actually researched this several years ago when my friend's sister had a baby. Friend's sister wanted the baby baptized but when she approached her mother's church she was given some lines about the child's parents not being married. I forget how, but you don't need a minister to do the baptism. My mil baptized my nieces. She wanted them baptized and sil and her dh don't go to church. Sil was ok with the baptism. The person doing the baptizing must be Christian, but other than that I forget the details. I do think it might feel more "real" if done in a church, but maybe having a close Christian friend do it would be special too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 My pastor would gladly baptize him, but i do think it's denomination specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I didn't read all the answers, so I apologize if I repeat someone. If your husband is a true believer, and he finds that his friend has true fruit of salvation, your husband can most certainly baptize him. My husband, who is a baptized, born again Christian, baptized me at a local beach. The 'pastor' at the 'church' you have been attending for a few weeks seems more than questionable to me. Baptism is not for obtaining membership to a 'church'. It is because you have repented and been born again. Just my opinion, but you may want to find another group of believers to fellowship with if that man has any leadership role. I find it disturbing that he would not baptize a believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn of ns Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 The 'pastor' at the 'church' you have been attending for a few weeks seems more than questionable to me. Baptism is not for obtaining membership to a 'church'. It is because you have repented and been born again. If you belong to certain denominations that is. Others regard baptism as, at least in part, a community initiation and often the baptismal rites will reflect that. Mamasheep provided the scriptural support for those who follow that line of thinking. I can understand how, if you have a born-again view, it could seem strange but it's a valid Christian belief, as old as Christianity itself, with good support and reasoning. I'd suggest the OP sit down with her new pastor and discuss the matter with him to find out why they have that policy. I'd also suggest that the gentleman eager to be baptised take the time to find a community that's willing to baptize him and is a good match for his enthusiasm rather then expect the religious equivilent of drive-thru service from the nearest church. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Matthew 3:5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. By these two verses, it seems that being baptized follows repentance. Isn't that what baptism is? An outward profession of a new life in Christ? A symbol of the washing of water (regeneration). With all due respect, I don't see why any minister would hinge any conditions on someone wanting to be baptized. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindyg Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Our church (Bible church) does not require church membership for baptism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 This must be denominational. I've been a Christian for almost 35 years and have never attended a church that had that requirement. The pastors would have been glad to baptize anyone who had repented and wanted to be baptized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 I have not heard back from the pastor yet but I do plan to speak with him asap regarding this issue. If this is true then my dh will baptize his friend himself. This is very troubling to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennefer@SSA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I have not read the other responses but our church (non-denominational) would certainly baptize him. We do baptisms all sorts of ways at our church but one of my favorites is when the person who led the new believer to the Lord baptizes them. We often have small baptism celebrations at people's homes and do the baptisms in a pool. We attend a very large church and this is one thing we do to make this special event more personal. Do you know anyone with a heated pool you could use and your dh could baptize him. Then you can have a party to celebrate! Invite all his family and friends to see this special event, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm sorry, but that just bothers me. Being baptized has NOTHING at ALL to do with a church or denomination. I wouldn't leave the church over something like that (there's always something!) but they're not acting on biblical wisdom where this is concerned. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 There are quite a few Church of God, Anderson churches in Michigan. Look and see if there are any close to you. They are non-denominational and will baptize your friend. I also see the view of baptism = membership as un-Biblical. The Church of God, Anderson does not have official membership as they believe membership into the Church is by salvation, and the Church is not local but part of the Body of Christ. Their motto is "We reach our hand in fellowship to every Blood-washed one". Having grown up with this belief, it was a real shock to visit a friend's Baptist church and find that they would not baptize anyone that didn't first become a member of their particular church. This friend of mine attended there, and had her membership in a sister Baptist church and wanted to be baptized. They refused to do so until she had her official membership transferred to their local church. She was amazed as was I! Needless to say, she left the Baptist church, came to my church and was baptized there. I also agree that your dh could baptize him. My dh is also a pastor, and he baptized all our dc when they were ready, and he encourages fathers to baptize their own children. There is nothing in the Bible that says it has to be done at a church or by a pastor, ordained or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm new here, so I'm hesitant to join in a conversation on such a sensitive topic, but something does come to mind as relates to your question that hasn't been brought up yet, so I thought I'd just mention it. I'm obviously not a member of the church in question so I don't really know what they base their policies on. I also wouldn't venture to guess what constitutes "common practice", considering the wide variation that exists among the plethora of Christian churches. But you asked where they might find a biblical model for baptising only people who plan on becoming members of that church. Without judging whether they are right or wrong, and keeping in mind that Bible verses are often interpreted very differently from one church to another, this passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 12 comes to mind: "12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." If this church interprets this passage in terms of the body representing the individual, local church, and they interpret being baptized as entrance into the body, then it would make sense for them only to baptized "into" their church body, those who actually plan on being a part of their church body. And again, I don't pretend to know what they base their policy on, but this seems like a possibility for a biblical basis for such a policy. Maybe this is the basis of the policy in question, though I have only ever heard these verses interpreted as referring to the body of Christ, not the local church body. I have also never heard of waiting three years to get baptized as a PP referred to this practice in the early Christian churches (not saying it isn't true but it is news to me, that's all). Wierd. I wish you (Heather, the OP) luck in helping your friend get baptized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 There are quite a few Church of God, Anderson churches in Michigan. Look and see if there are any close to you. They are non-denominational and will baptize your friend. I also see the view of baptism = membership as un-Biblical. The Church of God, Anderson does not have official membership as they believe membership into the Church is by salvation, and the Church is not local but part of the Body of Christ. Their motto is "We reach our hand in fellowship to every Blood-washed one". Having grown up with this belief, it was a real shock to visit a friend's Baptist church and find that they would not baptize anyone that didn't first become a member of their particular church. This friend of mine attended there, and had her membership in a sister Baptist church and wanted to be baptized. They refused to do so until she had her official membership transferred to their local church. She was amazed as was I! Needless to say, she left the Baptist church, came to my church and was baptized there. I also agree that your dh could baptize him. My dh is also a pastor, and he baptized all our dc when they were ready, and he encourages fathers to baptize their own children. There is nothing in the Bible that says it has to be done at a church or by a pastor, ordained or otherwise. I know that in our church, baptism is also a promise that the person will be raised in the faith (or learn in the faith if they are not an infant). It would be a very grave issue to baptize someone who didn't plan on becoming part of our religion (not necessarily our specific church), because the church could not be assured they were receiving the truth. I can certainly understand why a church would refuse to baptize someone. I also agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcy KY Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Heather....there are 5 pages of replies, so I didn't take time to read them all. Excuse me if this has already been said. Find yourself an indoor pool, girl, and have your sweet dh baptize this man. It will be meaningful to them both and hopefully will not introduce this man to the ridiculous politics of the "church" so new into his new-found faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Maybe this is the basis of the policy in question, though I have only ever heard these verses interpreted as referring to the body of Christ, not the local church body. I have also never heard of waiting three years to get baptized as a PP referred to this practice in the early Christian churches (not saying it isn't true but it is news to me, that's all). Wierd. I wish you (Heather, the OP) luck in helping your friend get baptized. I've heard it interpreted several ways. The original post asked about whether there was any Biblical model for the pastor's policy and this is one passage I think has been used in this manner in some denominations. I should perhaps say that this interpretation doesn't represent my own personal beliefs on the subject, which have not been expressed on this thread, and which I think I'll keep to myself so as not to sidetrack the conversation. I think this is one of those doctrines/policies that differs from one denomination to another, and whatever your opinion on the subject may be you can find a denomination that will agree with you and let you do it how you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soph the vet Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Heather....there are 5 pages of replies, so I didn't take time to read them all. Excuse me if this has already been said. Find yourself an indoor pool, girl, and have your sweet dh baptize this man. It will be meaningful to them both and hopefully will not introduce this man to the ridiculous politics of the "church" so new into his new-found faith. :iagree:Amen, sister, you preach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) I think there may be a feeling among some pastors that they must be very careful about baptizing people - especially people they do not know well. These pastors feel a great obligation to make sure, as much as humanly possible, that the people they baptize are, indeed, born again. Often this cannot be determined in a brief meeting - it takes time to determine if one's confession is sincere. I realize this is not how the New Testament apostles did it, but nowadays there are many baptized people walking around who are not walking in the faith. They profess Christianity and align themselves with Christ but do not live a life dedicated to bringing God glory by obeying scripture. This maligns the name of Christ and causes non-believers to wonder what's up with Christians as a group - they wonder what's so great about Christianity if the people who confess to be Christians act just like the rest of the world or worse. In an effort to keep the numbers of pseudo-Christians to a minimum and thereby protecting the honor of Christ, churches have instituted these "baptism leading to church membership" policies. In NT times it was risky to be a Christian so the apostles could reckon that if someone wanted to associate themselves with Christianity they must be sincere. In our country there is no real cost involved - no threat or danger to becoming a Christian, so there are often people who desire to be baptized who are not actually saved. It was easier for the apostles to determine the sincerity of a confession. Pastors are more accountable to God than regular folk - that's biblical. I would imagine some pastors are hesitant to baptize quickly because they do not want to give a person a false sense of assurance. What if this person is just excited about finding something new and is not really in it for the long haul? They might not truly be saved, but since they've been baptized they feel confident that they are saved and yet, in reality, they are headed for eternity in hell. Pastors often feel a great sense of responsibility NOT to give people a false sense of assurance. The New Testament believers also fellowshipped together daily - not just weekly. They immediately put themselves under the authority of the apostles' teaching demonstrating that they wanted to learn more of Christ and truly follow Him. I think this is the logic behind requiring church membership before agreeing to baptize someone. No, it is not exactly a requirement of scripture outright, but it does show sincerity on the part of the baptized and gives the Pastor assurance that he is baptizing someone who has truly been saved and not someone just looking for "fire insurance." Your dh and you feel confident that your friend is saved because you know him. You said you had only been going to this church for a short time. That means that your pastor would have to rely on the words of people he does not know very well about a person he knows even less concerning a thing that has eternal ramifications. He will have to stand before God one day and give an account of how he handled this situation. He has a responsibility to get it right as far as he is able. Perhaps a standard requirement of church membership upon being baptized is not laid out in scripture in a clear, concise way, but it is inferred to a degree and does give the Pastor confidence that the person he is baptizing is sincere in his profession since the baptizee (is that a word?) is willing to come under the authority of an elder for instruction in righeousness. Just some thoughts off the top of my head. ETA: I would very much not want to quench a new believer's fire for the Lord and his desire to be obedient to scripture by being baptized right away. I would just try to explain to him the predicament your pastor is in and offer him some possible reasons for why your pastor may be slow to baptize someone he does not know very well and why he requires church membership. Again, your pastor is responsible before God to get it right as much as humanly possible, although only God knows for sure the sincerity of anyone's profession. Edited January 17, 2009 by Kathleen in VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 This is very well-said and I agree. I'm actually surprised at the surprise on this topic. I don't agree with any membership requirement by any means, but pastors and priests have an obligation before God to shepherd those in their flock and I can completely understand any hesitation to offer a sacrament, publicly among a congregation for which that pastor feels immense responsibility, to a stranger--even if they are a "friend of a friend". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyof4ks Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 That never made sense to me when we went to several other churches. We now attend at Bible church, and we baptize twice a year in a local river for anyone who is a believer. There is no official membership though whether baptized here or at another church. But, yes we have been to churches where baptism was done to become a member, and if you changed churches you had to 'move your membership'. I am not sure what that means though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3lilreds in NC Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I have friends that belong to a Lutheran church which practices infant baptism. He came to my and was baptised. He still attend his church and is very active in it. My church apparently did not have a problem. Plus, where is it written that you have to be baptised in a church or by a pastor even. In my church we practice a 'believer's baptism' and when children want to be baptised typically it is their father who does it. We have done it in rivers, pools and I have even heard of people using bathtubs. My dh was Lutheran until we moved to NC (I tried to be Lutheran, I really did) and we saw adults baptized in the church. Of course they practice infant baptism, but they also baptize adults that profess faith in Christ as new believers. I guess I find it a little odd that your friend could not be baptized in his own church! I believe that our church would baptize people who were not members. It would be outside the norm, perhaps, but in general, I think they would be thrilled to have someone be baptized and not overly concerned about church membership. That seems a bit off to me. I could be overly optimistic about my church - but our pastor has such a heart to reach people for Christ, I am sure he would do it or allow it to be done (we have a lot of pastors and also our small group leaders can baptize people). ETA: I'm sure our pastor(s) would want to talk to the person in question and make sure they knew what they were doing, but I still think they'd go ahead with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 This is very well-said and I agree. I'm actually surprised at the surprise on this topic. I don't agree with any membership requirement by any means, but pastors and priests have an obligation before God to shepherd those in their flock and I can completely understand any hesitation to offer a sacrament, publicly among a congregation for which that pastor feels immense responsibility, to a stranger--even if they are a "friend of a friend". I understand the hesitation, I just disagree and see it as going the opposite direction of how that accountability should be carried. Kinda like the verse "don't let there be divisions among you" has been interpreted to NEEDING divisions[denominations] to make sure each person in a congregation is on the same page.....and I read it the absolute opposite: don't let differences of opinion DIVIDE you as the Body of Christ: "I was baptised in the Lutheran church; i was baptized in the Southern Baptist church; i was baptised in the Episcopal Church; i was baptised in the Catholic church;" etc etc etc. "In an effort to keep the numbers of pseudo-Christians to a minimum and thereby protecting the honor of Christ, " ouch. I think it is a very dangerous thing to even consider that we mere mortals need to "protect the honor of Christ" when we have a hard enough time protecting our own honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 "In an effort to keep the numbers of pseudo-Christians to a minimum and thereby protecting the honor of Christ, " ouch. I think it is a very dangerous thing to even consider that we mere mortals need to "protect the honor of Christ" when we have a hard enough time protecting our own honor. Not sure what's wrong with trying to protect the honor of Christ. When we profess to be Christians, thereby aligning ourselves with Christ, and then act contrary to Biblical teaching, we are bringing reproach to the name of Christ. I don't know that we "need" to protect it from the standpoint of God ever "needing" anything from us. I do think we have a responsibility to act in accordance with our profession so as not to shame our Savior. Maybe I'm not using the correct vocabulary, but I believe it is the believer's duty to act in such a way that honors Christ's name in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in KY Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Go to a pool and baptize him. Or do it in bath tub, like some missionary friends of mine who suddenly decided they needed to be immersed rather than sprinkled (as they had been as children). If the man wants to be baptized, just do it. It's a matter of obedience, really, and you don't have to be a pastor to baptize someone. You could invite him for dinner and tell him to bring an extra set of clothes. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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