Does anyone know why a mason couldn't be a Christian?

[KidsHappen]

I have one acquaintance who says he is both a Christian and a Mason and another acquaintance who swears that this is not possible. I do not know much about either but I have no reason to believe that the first person is lying nor do I understand why the second would think that. Can anyone offer me enlightenment here?

[Remudamom]

Google "Masons, Christianity".

[Joanne]

Of course you can be both. The secrecy and critics aside, a man can believe Jesus is Lord, be saved and be a Mason.

[Tree House Academy]

This link has information from a Christian perspective - mainly being that Jesus himself said that "no man shall serve two masters." And Masons do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh. I suppose a Christian could be a mason, but this article poses a "but why would he want to be" sort of take on it.

 

http://www.withoneaccord.org/store/SecretSins.html

[Happy2BaMom]

...and Christians. (see list below)

 

So I guess if a person can't be both, many of our Founding Fathers were not Christians. Which would settle for once and for all whether this country was founded on the Christian religion. (this is not my belief, however)

 

The hyper-religious deny you can be both. However, these tend to be the same people who state that you can't be Catholic and Christian, or _____ and Christian (with the ________ being anyone who thinks or speaks differently in any way, shape or form from the defined doctrinal gate of the individual stating such an opinion). It all depends on how narrowly a person chooses to define who is or is not a Christian.

 

Masons: Samuel Adams, Ethan Allen,Edmund Burke, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, John Paul Jones, James Madison,Paul Revere, George Washington, among others

 

I'm sorry if this post offends a few, but I know a lot about the Founding Fathers, and to hear someone claim that George Washington was not a Christian just irks me.

[sheryl]

This is my opinion. There are alot of strong, well-meaning Christians who are still deceived. These are strong Christians and saved, but just not informed. These believers in the faith, do NOT know of the secrecy and secrecy beyond secrecy that is aligned with false gods and pagan worship.

 

I encountered this myself about 3 years ago to learn more about this topic. My bible study teacher who once practiced the occult 30 years ago, became saved and lives for Jesus now. She is VERY knowledgable of the hidden meanings/agendas that is foundational to the masons. Also, there are a few masons who have been pulled from darkness into the light and have denounced any affiliation with this group. Instead, they have written a book and exposed the lies, with truth. Not in a mean way, but to inform people.

 

ere is a book my bible study teacher suggested and if you like, let me know by pm, and I'll forward the title to you.

 

HTH! Sheryl

[Carol in Cal.]

They are not all as staunch against it as they used to be, but at one time there was a serious question of dual allegiances / dual religions that made those church bodies deem membership in the lodge incompatible with membership in the church. Some of the oaths were unacceptable, and the pseudo religious aspects of it was considered offensive and wrong.

[tibbyl]

Interesting. If one cannot be "true" christian and Mason simultaneously, following that logic, members of Order of Easter Star and Rainbow Girls and Job's Daughters could not be "true" Christians. Laura Ingalls Wilder was a member of OES.

[Laura in VA]

There are "degrees" of Masons. Most lower-degree Masons do not have the same knowledge of Freemasonry as higher-degree Masons. Many churches do not allow members to be Masons. Just google it and you'll find lots of info. There are also books written about Freemasonry as well.

[PariSarah]

. . . the belief that Freemasons explicitly deny the divinity of Christ. I don't know whether that's true, not being a Freemason myself and not having a reliable account of Freemasonry. Allegedly, among the "lower levels" of members, it is not required to deny Christ's divinity, nor is it understood that the organization itself denies the divinity of Christ. So it seems that one could be a member without explicitly denying the divinity of Christ.

 

I would have a hard time calling someone who explicitly denied the divinity of Christ a Christian, however, and if there's any truth to the rumor that "further membership" in the group does entail a denial of Christ's divinity, than I would say that "further membership" is completely incompatible with Christianity, and that, therefore, the lower membership is unwise.

 

Again, I've not read what I would consider a reliable account of Freemasonry.

[PariSarah]

. . . but I was under the impression that Ben Franklin was theistic, but not explicitly Christian.

 

I'm not interested in parsing out which of the Founding Fathers who claimed to be Christian actually were, but I was under the impression that Frankly explicitly disavowed Christianity.

 

ETA: Or was your list just a list of Founding Fathers who were Masons, not a list of those who were Masons AND Christians?

[dawn of ns]

. . . the belief that Freemasons explicitly deny the divinity of Christ.

 

Christians have been doing that since the time of Christ. Many early Christians were ebionists, Christians who believed Jesus was fully human. And it's important to realize it wasn't nessacarily a denial of divinity but based more on embracing his humanity. Their thinking often was that in order for Jesus to truly have experienced human suffering he had to have truly been human. To them, implying he was divine cheapened his life and suffering.

 

The language that seems bent on denying some Christians the status of Christian just seems ridiculous to me. Christianity has been diverse and varied since it's beginning and some of the most adament denials of the Christianity of others come out denominations or theology that's incredibly young and very recent.

[Carrie12345]

I come from a family of Masons, but I'm not privy to the secrets of Freemasonry. My grandfather did have a masonic funeral, and I'm pretty sure there was mention of Father/Son/Spirit, but I'll admit I wasn't exactly paying full attention.

 

My grandmother is OES and very strong in her Lutheran (ELCA) faith. And my uncle is a former Catholic who converted to Lutheranism and was very active in his church and his kids' religious education in the church.

 

My step-father has served as Worshipful Master, and my mother has been very active in his lodge. She's devistated that I've left our church, so I'm pretty sure she wouldn't *knowingly support an explicitly non-Christian group.

 

Dh's grandfather was a Mason, and his grandmother is OES, and the family was raised in the Methodist church.

 

Like I said, I'm not privy to the secrets, but all of our Masonic relatives have very Christian backgrounds.

 

Dh did leave the organization when he realized he was an atheist. There is an expectation of belief in a higher power.

[PariSarah]

Christians have been doing that since the time of Christ.

 

. . . my beliefs should not be threatening to anyone who holds differing ones. ;)

 

I'd love to talk more with you about the early Christological controversies, but perhaps this is not the best place to do that. Suffice it to say that my comment regarding Christianity and denying the divinity of Christ is well-informed by a study of history and philosophy, and that it has little to do with any recent theology or church.

[mamaof2andtwins]

. . . but I was under the impression that Ben Franklin was theistic, but not explicitly Christian.

 

I'm not interested in parsing out which of the Founding Fathers who claimed to be Christian actually were, but I was under the impression that Frankly explicitly disavowed Christianity.

 

ETA: Or was your list just a list of Founding Fathers who were Masons, not a list of those who were Masons AND Christians?

 

 

My understanding is that Ben Franklin was a deists along with several other Founding Fathers.

 

Jennie

[Karenciavo]

I have one acquaintance who says he is both a Christian and a Mason and another acquaintance who swears that this is not possible.

 

You can be a Christian and anything these days, why not a Mason? As far as the Founding Fathers go, most were theists, deists, and Unitarians from what I can tell, I never made a t-chart on it; many modern born-again Christians would not consider them Christians if they could have a theological discussion with them. I'll let God sort it out.

[ereks mom]

... a certain degree within the organization, there is more explanation of what the signs & symbols of Masonry mean, and there is supposedly more to it than the lower-degree Masons know. Disclaimer: I am only going by what I've read and heard, not from personal research.

 

There are "degrees" of Masons. Most lower-degree Masons do not have the same knowledge of Freemasonry as higher-degree Masons. Many churches do not allow members to be Masons. Just google it and you'll find lots of info. There are also books written about Freemasonry as well.

[Chris in VA]

My dad is a pretty high up Mason. He's a Christian, but I'll tell you, he is in conflict. My mom was in Eastern Star (they met as Rainbow and DeMolay, the entry level for Masonery in which children are initiated into the group), and she, too, is a Christian. The Masons and Eastern Star, in their Connecticut community in the 50's, were considered social organizations, much like Moose and Elks (of which I know little, so I'm hopeful that my comparison holds up). The majority of the membership were "good, Christian men and women" with community service values.

 

Now here's the rub. I do know a lot about the secrets and the symbolism, and I have very strong feelings about them. On the one hand, I know the Masonic organization is open to many people, not just Christians, so the worship (and it is worship) is to a general God, not the Trinity. It's not a flat-out denial of Jesus in the ceremonial worship, but it's not an endorsement, either. It's kinda like when a person does a public prayer and just addresses God but doesn't address Jesus or Allah or Gaiam, or Baal, or whatever. There may be a denial of Jesus in the secrets of the Masons, but it isn't in the ceremonies where the lower and higher folks mix.

 

On the other hand, a lot of the symbols and the secrets are...well, yucky. I personally find it abhorrent. The worst part for me is that I believe the "lower peers" (my term) are not let into the symbolism until they are "hooked" and go to the next degrees. I find that deceitful. It's not like an old pagan symbol was overtaken to have a new meaning, like the Christmas Tree (and I know some of you have a problem with the Christmas Tree, so please bear with me). It's more like the opposite--the mason's tools, for example, seem like innocent symbols of the trade, but take on a sexual nature for the higher degree Masons (think spread legs). Really. Hard to believe, huh? But it's in the ceremony and literature for the very upper levels.

 

This is the heavily CC part, so skip if you want--I find Masons to be generally good people, but I think they are walking in spiritual darkness. The ones who are really into it are not only treading on thin ice, I think they've taken the plunge into icy waters, but most don't realize it. The ceremonies are no longer that secret, so you can read about them. They have no place in the Christian's life. I know that God has protected me thru his mercy from joining the Eastern Star--and it's really a miracle. My parents were very heavily into it. There's no reason they wouldn't want me into it, and no real explanation why they didn't expose me to it--except God protected me. They know I am totally, absolutely against Masons and all attached organizations. My dad becomes angry when I ask him about it, and my mom totally avoids the conversation (she doesn't do conflict anyway). I believe the teaching they received there regarding spiritual things, as well as the teaching they received from one of their priests at their current church, is responsible for the errors they believe. They are greatly conflicted people, and there is spiritual bondage there.

 

Ok--more than the OP wanted. Just tread carefully, and become informed.

[ereks mom]

The ..."lower peers" (my term) are not let into the symbolism until they are "hooked" and go to the next degrees.

 

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I've heard this too.

[Sue G in PA]

My dad is a pretty high up Mason. He's a Christian, but I'll tell you, he is in conflict. My mom was in Eastern Star (they met as Rainbow and DeMolay, the entry level for Masonery in which children are initiated into the group), and she, too, is a Christian. The Masons and Eastern Star, in their Connecticut community in the 50's, were considered social organizations, much like Moose and Elks (of which I know little, so I'm hopeful that my comparison holds up). The majority of the membership were "good, Christian men and women" with community service values.

 

Now here's the rub. I do know a lot about the secrets and the symbolism, and I have very strong feelings about them. On the one hand, I know the Masonic organization is open to many people, not just Christians, so the worship (and it is worship) is to a general God, not the Trinity. It's not a flat-out denial of Jesus in the ceremonial worship, but it's not an endorsement, either. It's kinda like when a person does a public prayer and just addresses God but doesn't address Jesus or Allah or Gaiam, or Baal, or whatever. There may be a denial of Jesus in the secrets of the Masons, but it isn't in the ceremonies where the lower and higher folks mix.

 

On the other hand, a lot of the symbols and the secrets are...well, yucky. I personally find it abhorrent. The worst part for me is that I believe the "lower peers" (my term) are not let into the symbolism until they are "hooked" and go to the next degrees. I find that deceitful. It's not like an old pagan symbol was overtaken to have a new meaning, like the Christmas Tree (and I know some of you have a problem with the Christmas Tree, so please bear with me). It's more like the opposite--the mason's tools, for example, seem like innocent symbols of the trade, but take on a sexual nature for the higher degree Masons (think spread legs). Really. Hard to believe, huh? But it's in the ceremony and literature for the very upper levels.

 

This is the heavily CC part, so skip if you want--I find Masons to be generally good people, but I think they are walking in spiritual darkness. The ones who are really into it are not only treading on thin ice, I think they've taken the plunge into icy waters, but most don't realize it. The ceremonies are no longer that secret, so you can read about them. They have no place in the Christian's life. I know that God has protected me thru his mercy from joining the Eastern Star--and it's really a miracle. My parents were very heavily into it. There's no reason they wouldn't want me into it, and no real explanation why they didn't expose me to it--except God protected me. They know I am totally, absolutely against Masons and all attached organizations. My dad becomes angry when I ask him about it, and my mom totally avoids the conversation (she doesn't do conflict anyway). I believe the teaching they received there regarding spiritual things, as well as the teaching they received from one of their priests at their current church, is responsible for the errors they believe. They are greatly conflicted people, and there is spiritual bondage there.

 

Ok--more than the OP wanted. Just tread carefully, and become informed.

 

Very well put. All of it. My father is a Mason, grandfather was a Mason, Tall Cedar and I, although I have repented of it, was a Job's Daughter in my youth. On the surface, all those organizations are honorable and certainly the people involved are good people (my Dad included). Masonry did a lot for my father, I think. My father is NOT a Christian. And, I can see how the beliefs that the Masons hold about God have clouded his view and made it hard for him to accept Christ as Savior. But, God is bigger than even the Masonic Order so there is hope! Anyway, your post was on the mark. Masons are not evil and therein lies the "hook", KWIM? Why wouldn't you want to belong to a philanthropic organization that does so much good? What is wrong with that? It's deceptive and dangerous and I mean not to offend anyone but...it is totally of the enemy.

[sheryl]

These two are right on with their accuracy and discernment!!

 

Very well put. All of it. My father is a Mason, grandfather was a Mason, Tall Cedar and I, although I have repented of it, was a Job's Daughter in my youth. On the surface, all those organizations are honorable and certainly the people involved are good people (my Dad included). Masonry did a lot for my father, I think. My father is NOT a Christian. And, I can see how the beliefs that the Masons hold about God have clouded his view and made it hard for him to accept Christ as Savior. But, God is bigger than even the Masonic Order so there is hope! Anyway, your post was on the mark. Masons are not evil and therein lies the "hook", KWIM? Why wouldn't you want to belong to a philanthropic organization that does so much good? What is wrong with that? It's deceptive and dangerous and I mean not to offend anyone but...it is totally of the enemy.

[sheryl]

I replied incorrectly. I meant to say I agree with these two: Sue and Chris/Va!!!!

[Audrey]

I have one acquaintance who says he is both a Christian and a Mason and another acquaintance who swears that this is not possible. I do not know much about either but I have no reason to believe that the first person is lying nor do I understand why the second would think that. Can anyone offer me enlightenment here?

 

Well... my grandfather was a Master Mason and a leader of some note at his Lodge. He was not a christian, but to anyone's knowledge he never was. He said christians could not be Masons and still cling to being christians.

 

I do not know if that had anything to do with Masonic rules, or just his own opinion. I doubt you'll get a concise answer on the matter, though. The rules of Masonry aren't public knowledge and you're as likely to get as many Masons disagreeing on this question as you will get christians disagreeing on it.

[OnTheBrink]

...and Christians. (see list below)

 

So I guess if a person can't be both, many of our Founding Fathers were not Christians. Which would settle for once and for all whether this country was founded on the Christian religion. (this is not my belief, however)

 

The hyper-religious deny you can be both. However, these tend to be the same people who state that you can't be Catholic and Christian, or _____ and Christian (with the ________ being anyone who thinks or speaks differently in any way, shape or form from the defined doctrinal gate of the individual stating such an opinion). It all depends on how narrowly a person chooses to define who is or is not a Christian.

 

Masons: Samuel Adams, Ethan Allen,Edmund Burke, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, John Paul Jones, James Madison,Paul Revere, George Washington, among others

 

I'm sorry if this post offends a few, but I know a lot about the Founding Fathers, and to hear someone claim that George Washington was not a Christian just irks me.

 

I'd like to see evidence of their faith in Christ. I've always thought the FF were Christians, but from what I've seen, the only FF with any proof of his faith is Samuel Adams. I think may of the FF were diests, but not necessarily Christians, with saving faith in Christ.

[AuntieM]

maybe someone (yoo-hoo, PariSarah!) could offer a good book on the faith(s) of the founding fathers? Is there a good one to recommend?

[mcconnellboys]

That is true.

 

It would seem to me that one could then not be a member of Shriner's, 4-H, Lion's Club, Rotary, Jaycees, etc., etc., etc.

 

One of my Grandfather's was a Mason and a Shriner. His wife, my mother, her sister and sister's husband were all inducted into Eastern Star (at least I *think* he was in it; if there's some branch that men serve in - he was not a Mason, but did do something with Eastern Star, as he's in some group pictures).

 

They are all Christians, to my knowledge. I've tried asking them things about some of the allegations made against these groups, and none of them seem to know anything about such alleged teachings. So maybe some orders in some towns that had "higher", more "secret knowledge" did practice things that could be considered heretical. But my guess is that many small town groups across America were just social clubs who did a lot of good volunteer work.

 

My own younger son has benefitted tremendously from the free care that Shriner's offers to ALL children who suffer from clubfoot in any degree and through our contact with them, we've seen the tremendous work they do with really severely afflicted children. I also grew up seeing lots of contributions from these other organizations I mentioned.

 

Do folks need a social group other than their church family in which to operate to do good works? Maybe not if they have a really vibrant church family. But all these groups in my town contained members from across a spectrum of different church denominations, who all worked together and often brought their respective churches into the mix on projects, too.

 

I've read a lot about Freemasonry in recent years and this is what led to my re-examination of family members regarding their involvement in this organization. I wanted to make sure that as a child, growing up, I wasn't missing something important about this group that might make me now rethink their involvement with it. Nothing I've managed to dig up has changed my mind....

[mcconnellboys]

I really don't want to offend anyone, either. Everyone is perfectly free to believe as they choose so far as I'm concerned.

 

I have met people since moving here who I have heard say that they don't see how xxxxx "can be a Christian", just because they don't agree with them on a political topic or didn't vote the same way they did, etc. This brings back shades of visiting my paternal grandparents growing up. Within their church community, regular reinterpretation of scriptures led to splintering of the church and re-establishment of another group just a little way down the road. One of the reasons, I always said, that rural communities had so many little, tiny churches.... I regularly heard that the group who thought differently than the one I was with "couldn't be *real* Christians" because they were wrong in their thought.

 

Now, in my middle aged quest for spiritual growth, I've come to equate these sorts of comments with the folks who like to tell those with whom they disagree or who they're mad at that "they'll pray for them". It all seems to me a sort of ego trip we take to make us feel snug, smug and grounded within our own belief.

 

I don't think it's my job, as a Christian in training, to judge the choices others make in their lives and pass judgment on them for *anything*, whatsoever. I know scriptures can be quoted to me about "our Christian duty", but anyone who can read the Bible for themselves and is grown up enough to be a church member can make their own decision about their social groups without me putting my two cents into their business. If I'm concerned for them, then I can certainly pray for them (without the need to tell them so) and I'm sure God will be perfectly willing to intervene and take care of any potential problem - after all, He *is* omnipotent. The thing is, I don't believe for a minute that God cares a whit about all this piddly sort of stuff.... I think He cares about us doing unto others....

[mcconnellboys]

And to reach those higher levels, Masons must have certain levels of education. So a high school graduate can't go as far in the organization as a college graduate, as a master's degree holder, etc.

[Ellie]

Mr. Ellie's father was a Mason. Mr. Ellie was in DeMolay. But when Mr. Ellie was all grown up, he purposed that he would never have one of his dc participate in Masons (or the women's organizations). He does not think that all the secrecy, and some of the pledges and whatnot, are compatible with Biblical Christianity.

[LaxMom]

I really don't want to offend anyone, either. Everyone is perfectly free to believe as they choose so far as I'm concerned.

 

I have met people since moving here who I have heard say that they don't see how xxxxx "can be a Christian", just because they don't agree with them on a political topic or didn't vote the same way they did, etc. This brings back shades of visiting my paternal grandparents growing up. Within their church community, regular reinterpretation of scriptures led to splintering of the church and re-establishment of another group just a little way down the road. One of the reasons, I always said, that rural communities had so many little, tiny churches.... I regularly heard that the group who thought differently than the one I was with "couldn't be *real* Christians" because they were wrong in their thought.

 

Now, in my middle aged quest for spiritual growth, I've come to equate these sorts of comments with the folks who like to tell those with whom they disagree or who they're mad at that "they'll pray for them". It all seems to me a sort of ego trip we take to make us feel snug, smug and grounded within our own belief.

 

I don't think it's my job, as a Christian in training, to judge the choices others make in their lives and pass judgment on them for *anything*, whatsoever. I know scriptures can be quoted to me about "our Christian duty", but anyone who can read the Bible for themselves and is grown up enough to be a church member can make their own decision about their social groups without me putting my two cents into their business. If I'm concerned for them, then I can certainly pray for them (without the need to tell them so) and I'm sure God will be perfectly willing to intervene and take care of any potential problem - after all, He *is* omnipotent. The thing is, I don't believe for a minute that God cares a whit about all this piddly sort of stuff.... I think He cares about us doing unto others....

 

As neither a Christian, nor a Mason (or any affiliated or non-affiliated group member) this is my thought when reading this conundrum as well...

 

I stand in silence for invocations that are all. over. Jesus. That doesn't change my spiritual bent, it's just respectful. Calling my dog Mia-la and having a fondness for latkes does not make me Jewish, nor does it make me a "fake" in my own spiritual journey.

 

When did it become ok to micromanage somebody else's faith?!?! If somebody tells you they are a Christian, isn't that enough? I have never seen so much back and forth about who can be considered to be a "real" anything in my life. For Pete's sake.

[Jean in Newcastle]

When did it become ok to micromanage somebody else's faith?!?! If somebody tells you they are a Christian, isn't that enough? I have never seen so much back and forth about who can be considered to be a "real" anything in my life. For Pete's sake.

 

Maybe it would be better to say "I understand the Bible to say that xyz is what makes one a Christian". (In my case that xyz would be the belief that Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for my sins.) Since most people who say they are a Christian would say that what they believe makes a difference in whether they have a true relationship with God or not - and due to that where they will spend eternity - it isn't that weird that there would be a lot of back and forth about what could be considered "real" Christianity. One of the tenets of Christianity is that God Himself reached out to mankind to tell us through the Bible how to have a relationship with Him. And since the Bible is not a relativistic book but deals with absolutes, then it really does matter what you believe God to be saying. Now since I realize that not everyone who says they are a Christian will agree with what I wrote above, I will say- this is what I understand the Bible to say about itself and it's message.

[OnTheBrink]

As neither a Christian, nor a Mason (or any affiliated or non-affiliated group member) this is my thought when reading this conundrum as well...

 

I stand in silence for invocations that are all. over. Jesus. That doesn't change my spiritual bent, it's just respectful. Calling my dog Mia-la and having a fondness for latkes does not make me Jewish, nor does it make me a "fake" in my own spiritual journey.

 

When did it become ok to micromanage somebody else's faith?!?! If somebody tells you they are a Christian, isn't that enough? I have never seen so much back and forth about who can be considered to be a "real" anything in my life. For Pete's sake.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to micromanage anyone else's faith. However, scripture is very clear that not all who say they're Christians actually are. Sometimes I get a little confused when someone claims to be a Christian (which, by definition, means follower of Christ) yet they don't read Scripture and don't believe in it. Some call themselves Christians because they aren't anything else. I've known many many people in that camp. So, no, simply saying someone's a Christian isn't really enough. Scripture teaches that there is spiritual fruit in a believer's life that's evident of their salvation. Naturally, not every believer is going to be at the same place in their walk with the Lord, and not every believer is going to have the same level of spiritual maturity. Now, to the OP. Can someone be a mason and be a Believer? Only God knows someone's heart, but Scripture says there is only one God and he won't share loyalty between Himself and anything else. So I guess the question to the mason would be, where is their allegiance? To Christ or to a lodge/group/organization? Their answer would answer the OP.

[sheryl]

With all due respect, that is your opinion. Most people and most Christians do NOT know/understand of the true meanings/secrecy behind these groups.

 

While it's not my intention to banter back and forth, I will say my dad was in Masons, Scottish Rite and had to join Job's Daughters. My fil was in Masons or Shriners, I forget which one.

 

From 1st hand experience these are all organizations to stay away from.

 

Ditto M/M Ellie, Chris/Va, EreksMom.

 

 

 

 

As neither a Christian, nor a Mason (or any affiliated or non-affiliated group member) this is my thought when reading this conundrum as well...

 

I stand in silence for invocations that are all. over. Jesus. That doesn't change my spiritual bent, it's just respectful. Calling my dog Mia-la and having a fondness for latkes does not make me Jewish, nor does it make me a "fake" in my own spiritual journey.

 

When did it become ok to micromanage somebody else's faith?!?! If somebody tells you they are a Christian, isn't that enough? I have never seen so much back and forth about who can be considered to be a "real" anything in my life. For Pete's sake.

[Peek a Boo]

I don't think it's my job, as a Christian in training, to judge the choices others make in their lives and pass judgment on them for *anything*, whatsoever. I know scriptures can be quoted to me about "our Christian duty", but anyone who can read the Bible for themselves and is grown up enough to be a church member can make their own decision about their social groups without me putting my two cents into their business. If I'm concerned for them, then I can certainly pray for them (without the need to tell them so) and I'm sure God will be perfectly willing to intervene and take care of any potential problem - after all, He *is* omnipotent. The thing is, I don't believe for a minute that God cares a whit about all this piddly sort of stuff.... I think He cares about us doing unto others....

 

 

except that anyone who can read the Bible for themselves should already know that the Christian duty of which you speak IS to be expected. Accountability to other Christians IS part of being a Christian.

 

God very often uses other people to intervene. Thus the reason for the OP :)

 

i have to admit, I have a bit of a sore spot about the "i'll just pray about it" philosophy, cuz so often people pray and pray and pray and never SPEAK or ACT to resolve the situation. Yes, I'll pray for my marriage, but I'll also take active steps to protect myself and my children.

 

 

as far as the OP, I do agree that there are probably some Masons [esp lower levels] who are Christian and Masonic. But my own research and word-of-mouth experiences have shown what Audrey and others have opointed out: sincere, complete Masonic teachings are likely incompatible w/ sincere, complete Christianity. But like most organizations that rely on local chapters, I'm sure you'll find a few here and there that don't completely adhere to 'national policy' or something like that.

 

as for taking pledges to other organizations-- I do know that God looks at our heart first and foremost. I have no problems taking a social pledge to the US, 4-H, or Scouts, or any other organization as long as those organizations have as policy that they are not representing a Supreme Being and don't expect my worship :D That's probably a reason i have avoided membership in a specific denomination --too legalistic about how to worship 'correctly' for me.

[Peek a Boo]

When did it become ok to micromanage somebody else's faith?!?! If somebody tells you they are a Christian, isn't that enough? I have never seen so much back and forth about who can be considered to be a "real" anything in my life. For Pete's sake.

 

I had to smile at this when i think about the Jewish faith [or Muslim faith for that matter] and how to determine whether one is truly Jewish ;)

[KidsHappen]

Ok, I just have to ask. If the meanings of these signs and symbols are so secret that even lower level Masons don't know the true meaning of them, then how do YOU know? I have read tons of books on the Masons and from what I can tell most of them have to be taken with a grain of salt. It doesn't really sound to me like any of the authors actually know what they are talking about but more like than are taking what few verifiable historical facts that are available and missing them with popular myths and suppositions to come up with questionable hypothesis. I have never read a book from a pro-Christian/Anti-Mason POV before but the stuff I am finding on the internet seems very alarmist and not quite rational or logical. I find it difficult to believe that the women on the board would be basing their decisions on this type of information so I am wondering, where are you getting your information from?

Edited January 12, 2009 by KidsHappen

[Dobela]

My dad considered becoming a Mason. My uncle was one until he died. My dad was a Christian and said the reason he decided to not join was after being asked to call other men titles such as "Worshipful Master". He believes that the Bible clearly teaches we are not to worship anyone other than God the father, and Christ. The verse of not serving 2 masters also came to mind. He felt that by calling other men master and considering them "worshipful" was in direct violation of scriptures. Since he has to answer to God, he abandonded membership in the Masons. He also said that while some men there were "spiritual" many of the ones he met were very down on organized religion and actively tried to convince him to leave church memberships behind him.

 

My uncle was a Christian, but one that felt under the grace of God anything is permissable. He used his Mason connections as social connections though.

[Peek a Boo]

Ok, I just have to ask. If the meanings of these signs and symbols are so secret that even lower level Masons don't know the true meaning of them, then how do YOU know? I have read tons of books on the Masons and from what I can tell most of the have to be taken with a grain of salt. It doesn't really sound to me like any of the authors actually know what they are talking about but more like than are taking what few verifiable historical facts that are available and missing them with popular myths and suppositions to come up with questionable hypothesis. I have never read a book from a pre-Christian/Anti-Mason POV before but the stuff I am finding on the internet seems very alarmist and not quite rational or logical. I find it difficult to believe that the women on the board would be basing their decisions on this type of information so I am wondering, where are you getting your information from?

 

 

I agree that stuff you 'just read' has to be taken w/ a HUGE boulder of salt.

It's the stuff I've heard from ex-Masons [that I know were ex masons and not just saying they were to bash them 'with credibility'] that carries more weight w/ me, and it's when i hear it from 'more than one ex' that it moves from the realm of hearsay to fact.

 

good luck making a decision ;)

[Puma Mom]

My dad is a pretty high up Mason. He's a Christian, but I'll tell you, he is in conflict. My mom was in Eastern Star (they met as Rainbow and DeMolay, the entry level for Masonery in which children are initiated into the group), and she, too, is a Christian. The Masons and Eastern Star, in their Connecticut community in the 50's, were considered social organizations, much like Moose and Elks (of which I know little, so I'm hopeful that my comparison holds up). The majority of the membership were "good, Christian men and women" with community service values.

 

Now here's the rub. I do know a lot about the secrets and the symbolism, and I have very strong feelings about them. On the one hand, I know the Masonic organization is open to many people, not just Christians, so the worship (and it is worship) is to a general God, not the Trinity. It's not a flat-out denial of Jesus in the ceremonial worship, but it's not an endorsement, either. It's kinda like when a person does a public prayer and just addresses God but doesn't address Jesus or Allah or Gaiam, or Baal, or whatever. There may be a denial of Jesus in the secrets of the Masons, but it isn't in the ceremonies where the lower and higher folks mix.

 

On the other hand, a lot of the symbols and the secrets are...well, yucky. I personally find it abhorrent. The worst part for me is that I believe the "lower peers" (my term) are not let into the symbolism until they are "hooked" and go to the next degrees. I find that deceitful. It's not like an old pagan symbol was overtaken to have a new meaning, like the Christmas Tree (and I know some of you have a problem with the Christmas Tree, so please bear with me). It's more like the opposite--the mason's tools, for example, seem like innocent symbols of the trade, but take on a sexual nature for the higher degree Masons (think spread legs). Really. Hard to believe, huh? But it's in the ceremony and literature for the very upper levels.

 

This is the heavily CC part, so skip if you want--I find Masons to be generally good people, but I think they are walking in spiritual darkness. The ones who are really into it are not only treading on thin ice, I think they've taken the plunge into icy waters, but most don't realize it. The ceremonies are no longer that secret, so you can read about them. They have no place in the Christian's life. I know that God has protected me thru his mercy from joining the Eastern Star--and it's really a miracle. My parents were very heavily into it. There's no reason they wouldn't want me into it, and no real explanation why they didn't expose me to it--except God protected me. They know I am totally, absolutely against Masons and all attached organizations. My dad becomes angry when I ask him about it, and my mom totally avoids the conversation (she doesn't do conflict anyway). I believe the teaching they received there regarding spiritual things, as well as the teaching they received from one of their priests at their current church, is responsible for the errors they believe. They are greatly conflicted people, and there is spiritual bondage there.

 

Ok--more than the OP wanted. Just tread carefully, and become informed.

I totally agree.

 

My mother's parents were highly involved in the Masons and Eastern Star. Grandmother was the VA high muckety muck--aka Grand Matron--back in the 70s. She was an active member of her church and probably a Christian. My grandfather was a Mason of the highest order. He was not a Christian, maybe a Deist if I had to guess.

 

My mom as been in Eastern Star since she was old enough, and I think for her it is purely a social organization. I truly think she'd be baffled to hear it might be anything else. My impression is that she has a fairly lukewarm type of Christianity, and she's not going to go looking for problems.

[SquirrellyMama]

I think brick houses are great. I understand Jesus was a carpenter but I think masons can be Christians too. :001_smile:

 

I'm sorry. I had to do it. :lol: My dh told me to.

 

I have to edit this. I called my dh and told him it was his fault if I got in trouble and he said "I didn't say you had to post it". I told him he suggested it and with my personality that is enough.

 

Kelly

Edited January 12, 2009 by kwiech
For my marriage

[Peek a Boo]

I think brick houses are great. I understand Jesus was a carpenter but I think masons can be Christians too. :001_smile:

 

I'm sorry. I had to do it. :lol: My dh told me to.

 

I have to edit this. I called my dh and told him it was his fault if I got in trouble and he said "I didn't say you had to post it". I told him he suggested it and with my personality that is enough.

 

Kelly

 

:lol: :lurk5: :iagree: :tongue_smilie: