What do you think emotional abuse is?

[Ann.without.an.e]

We talked and I updated in the my last reply....

 

I've been seeing a therapist and today he pointed out, prefacing it with the fact that I wouldn't want to hear it, that I'm in an emotionally abusive relationship. It isn't intentional or malicious in nature and we both can agree on that. I guess that I can see this as true. I've had this person on a pedestal for so long. I guess I had never thought of it in this light so I'm trying to see it for what it is and not excuse it for once. At the same time, how do I even begin to address this with someone that I have to stay fairly surface level with since anything that sparks even a slight emotional response is met with me being the person who is blamed or shamed somehow. How do I help this person see it when they always end up blaming me?

ETA: Also I've been seeing him for a few months. He mentioned today that he's willing to see me and he can help me the best he can but he wonders if I could be more challenged by a woman. What do y'all think? I'm comfortable with him so I'm nervous to change. 

Edited July 24 by Ann.without.an.e

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

At the same time, how do I even begin to address this with someone that I have to stay fairly surface level with since anything that sparks even a slight emotional response is met with me being the person who is blamed or shamed somehow. How do I help this person see it when they always end up blaming me?

It depends who the person is. The answer is different if it’s a spouse vs grown child for example. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

It depends who the person is. The answer is different if it’s a spouse vs grown child for example. 

I was really trying to be vague lol. It is spouse. He is great in so many areas so I feel guilty even admitting it tbh. He isn't a bad person, it's complicated. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think often all we can do is change how we respond/interact. If you are being blamed/shamed then it sounds like they are more likely unwilling/unable to receive feedback at this point for them to initiate their own introspection and internal work.

[maize]

Emotional abuse is a persistent pattern (can be intermittent, with periods of much better treatment) of behavior that pushes you to be smaller as a person, to take up less of the world psychologically, emotionally, relationally.

Manipulation to get you to behave the way another person wants is abuse. Manipulative behavior can be framed as thoughtfulness, kindness, and caring about your well-being--it isn't any of those things if it is pushing you to be and do only what the other person wants.

Controlling via threats, aggressiveness, or withholding of resources or affection is abuse.

Putting you down, judging harshly, shaming, name-calling or swearing at you are abuse.

 

 

Edited July 19 by maize

[KSera]

Have you read Stop Walking on Eggshells? It’s aimed at people in relationships with those with borderline personality disorder, but the dynamic sounds similar to what you describe. This: “I have to stay fairly surface level with since anything that sparks even a slight emotional response is met with me being the person who is blamed or shamed somehow.”

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I was really trying to be vague lol. It is spouse. He is great in so many areas so I feel guilty even admitting it tbh. He isn't a bad person, it's complicated. 

 

Is there something going on with him like neurodivergence or mental health struggles?

Unhealthy styles of relating can be the result of poor coping mechanisms in someone whose brain is overwhelmed. 

My husband is, at his core, a profoundly good person. He has also been extremely overwhelmed by life through most of our marriage, and that has come out in abusive and harmful behaviors.

In his case, finding more effective treatments and resources to help him better understand his own experience (he has finally come to recognize that he is autistic after a couple of our kids were diagnosed) has allowed him to be more regulated and more his true self.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think emotional abuse is the broader label for nonphysical acts, intentional or not, to harm, manipulate and control another person. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Have you read Stop Walking on Eggshells? It’s aimed at people in relationships with those with borderline personality disorder, but the dynamic sounds similar to what you describe. This: “I have to stay fairly surface level with since anything that sparks even a slight emotional response is met with me being the person who is blamed or shamed somehow.”

While I have had to walk on eggshells for most of our marriage, to one extent or another, I do not think he has BPD. 

[maize]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

While I have had to walk on eggshells for most of our marriage, to one extent or another, I do not think he has BPD. 

The book is helpful for any situation where you find yourself pushed to tiptoe around someone else's emotional volatility. My husband wouldn't meet a BPD diagnosis but his emotional fragility and volatility absolutely resulted in similar dynamics. It's been more than a decade since I read Stop Walking on Eggshells but I remember finding it helpful.

[Katy]

I haven’t read it, but one of my siblings is a therapist and frequently recommends a book called Why Does He Do That? To people in abusive relationships (of any gender or orientation). Last week I saw it was free on Audible if you have a membership. Otherwise it might be at your library. It’s pretty popular. 
 

Otherwise I’d say that any relationship that involves inappropriate control or undue criticism is abusive. Healthy relationships are generally the opposite. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Can I just say I think it’s awesome you are in therapy and have some real life support? Changing dynamics can be hard and messy in the short run, but really understanding that some things arent really about you (you arent to blame/are bad—it’s a reaction the other person is having) can be really healing and empowering. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

Is there something going on with him like neurodivergence or mental health struggles?

Unhealthy styles of relating can be the result of poor coping mechanisms in someone whose brain is overwhelmed. 

My husband is, at his core, a profoundly good person. He has also been extremely overwhelmed by life through most of our marriage, and that has come out in abusive and harmful behaviors.

In his case, finding more effective treatments and resources to help him better understand his own experience (he has finally come to recognize that he is autistic after a couple of our kids were diagnosed) has allowed him to be more regulated and more his true self.

 

 

I do not think he is neurodivergent. 

He went from incredibly emotionally up and down at times the first half of our marriage, where I was his anchor, to suddenly lacking emotion and not able to handle emotion and he honestly thinks that just pushing all emotion aside is the answer to happiness. This happened not long after the relationship with his parents ended and I think his parents are the cause of a lot of his issues even if he won't recognize this.

He has gotten to live mostly in a bubble for a while now, where I have had to just deal with all things emotional and simply not share them with him or let him in on it as much as possible in order to keep peace. I don't share my emotions with him either. We are very much at peace and never fight. This is because I am a peacemaker and I just don't rock the boat. It works. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Can I just say I think it’s awesome you are in therapy and have some real life support? Changing dynamics can be hard and messy in the short run, but really understanding that some things arent really about you (you arent to blame/are bad—it’s a reaction the other person is having) can be really healing and empowering. 

 

Thank you. I want to deal with this before menopause lol. I'm kind, meek, and a peacemaker but I'm scared to death that the hormonal stuff will hit the fan and I will lose that or my filter that I keep so tightly sealed. I'm so scared of becoming mean or vindictive or too vocal. Idk why I fear that but I do. I wanted to try therapy to see if I can sort some of this out before hormones hit the fan. 

[wintermom]

If you are comfortable with your current therapist, keep going. Does this therapist do couples therapy? If you dh is willing to attend therapy, perhaps you will both be able to work through these issues.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, wintermom said:

If you are comfortable with your current therapist, keep going. Does this therapist do couples therapy? If you dh is willing to attend therapy, perhaps you will both be able to work through these issues.

I dont recommend joint therapy where emotional abuse is part of the dynamic of the relationship. OP will lose her safe place to discuss things, and abuser will have more fuel to abuse with. OP needs her own counselor that she does not “share”, especially in the beginning.

[wintermom]

11 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I dont recommend joint therapy where emotional abuse is part of the dynamic of the relationship. OP will lose her safe place to discuss things, and abuser will have more fuel to abuse with. OP needs her own counselor that she does not “share”, especially in the beginning.

Would a separate marriage therapist and/or a separate therapist for the spouse be a better route, then? 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Would a separate marriage therapist and/or a separate therapist for the spouse be a better route, then? 

He does not do marriage therapy. Several of his coworkers do and he can refer us. I do not think that DH would do marriage therapy tbh. And I cannot ever decide if it is worth the messiness to try to sort out all of these emotions he has been stuffing. When he is emotional, for some crazy reason, I am the target. When he just stuffs the emotions, he is happier.

Edited July 19 by Ann.without.an.e

[wintermom]

6 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

He does not do marriage therapy. Several of his coworkers do and he can refer us. I do not think that DH would do marriage therapy tbh. And I cannot ever decide if it is worth the messiness to try to sort out all of these emotions he has been stuffing. When he is emotional, for some crazy reason, I am the target. When he just stuffs the emotions, he is happier.

I couldn't image that it would be your responsibility to try to sort out his emotions. That's only something the individual can do for themself. If they aren't willing to seek help, and you continue to be the target, then you may have some tough decisions ot make. If there are children in the house, please ensure that their emotional and physical safety is of the highest priority. You may want to choose to stay, but your dc may choose not to, and then you risk losing them (they move out, or potentially make other really scary self-harm choices). 

So sorry you're going through this.

ETA: You might also want to ask your dc if your dh has been taking out his anger/emotions on the dc. This may be happening while you are not around. 

Edited July 19 by wintermom

[City Mouse]

57 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

At the same time, how do I even begin to address this with someone that I have to stay fairly surface level with since anything that sparks even a slight emotional response is met with me being the person who is blamed or shamed somehow. How do I help this person see it when they always end up blaming me?

 

You can’t. There is nothing you can say or do that will make the other person realize that they are in the wrong and that their behavior is hurtful. All you can do is decide how you will respond. I had to learn this the hard way with my mother. Some of my siblings never learned this and spent the entire time hoping mom would change, but of course she didn’t.

I actually started challenging my mother more rather than less. That seemed to work because I could be unemotional in my responses. Our dialogue went something like this: Mom, when you said xxx, that sounded like you meant xxxx. Is that really what you intended to say? Because I don’t think xx is exactly true.

The other statement I used frequently was “You are an adult, and you are legally allowed to do xxx if that is what you want. I am also an adult, and I am not required to help you with xxx when I don’t agree with that.”
 

As you put up boundaries and don’t take on the “blame”, then that person my change their behaviors because they aren’t getting the response they want from you, but I I don’t believe that the other person will ever change their internal beliefs and realize that you are right and they are wrong. A specific diagnosis doesn’t matter that much except to maybe help you understand the why of the behavior. You can set boundaries for behaviors with or without a diagnosis. 
I know I am making this sound rather simple, but I didn’t start figuring this out with my mother until I was over 50. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think it is possible for an abuser to become more self aware and change—particularly if the behaviors are stemming out of abuser’s own dysregulation and not out of a direct intent to harm—but OP can only manage OP. OP changing her part in the dynamic may lead the other to change their behaviors, or other may not change—but either way OP can face the dynamic with a clearer sense of reality and more tools in her toolbox. 
 

Right now she is living in a false peace, made possible only because she is managing the other person. She’s maintained that for her own reasons and she needs to understand the dynamics of that deeper. 

[Carol in Cal.]

You might privately read the ‘dance’ books—The Dance of Anger, The Dance of Intimacy, The Dance of Connection.  What I like about them is that they recommend and help you picture making *one* little change, and assertively but not aggressively standing your ground.  And then seeing where that lead.  They are on the gentle end of this type of book, not the kind that basically through a grenade into the relationship.

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, I think a lot of people deflect—they cant handle uncomfortable feelings so they shove that onto someone else through blame/shame/projection/deflection. Odds are the other person is feeling overwhelmed or anxious and their poor coping mechanism is to offload that onto another so they dont have to deal with their feelings.
 

We can be empathetic and loving in our response. Boundaries can be a loving thing to do.

Edited July 19 by prairiewindmomma

[Ann.without.an.e]

45 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I couldn't image that it would be your responsibility to try to sort out his emotions. That's only something the individual can do for themself. If they aren't willing to seek help, and you continue to be the target, then you may have some tough decisions ot make. If there are children in the house, please ensure that their emotional and physical safety is of the highest priority. You may want to choose to stay, but your dc may choose not to, and then you risk losing them (they move out, or potentially make other really scary self-harm choices). 

So sorry you're going through this.

ETA: You might also want to ask your dc if your dh has been taking out his anger/emotions on the dc. This may be happening while you are not around. 

Oh, I wouldn't be sorting the emotions. He would. I just guarantee it will be messy. 

He doesn't have anger issues at all. He is not unsafe. He is just not emotionally available and if his emotions are triggered in any way, he blames me or taps out. 

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Oh, I wouldn't be sorting the emotions. He would. I just guarantee it will be messy. 

He doesn't have anger issues at all. He is not unsafe. He is just not emotionally available and if his emotions are triggered in any way, he blames me or taps out. 

Anger isn't the only thing that can impact children negatively. There are a host of potential issues that can come into play, and these things not only damage the father-child relationship, but can impact the child's relationships with others going forward. 

It's just something to consider, particularly as there seems to be (according to your signature) one minor child still at home. 

I wouldn't want you to find out the tough way that the child is suffering. Self-harm is VERY common among youth these days.

All the best going forward.

Edited July 19 by wintermom

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, maize said:

Emotional abuse is a persistent pattern (removing part) of behavior that pushes you to be smaller as a person, to take up less of the world psychologically, emotionally, relationally.

I haven’t finished reading the thread.
This (above) can happen without…

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think emotional abuse is the broader label for nonphysical acts, intentional or not, to harm, manipulate and control another person. 

…this being the GOAL when it’s due to neurodivergence. 

With ND (or having grown up with ND), the GOAL can be totally self-preservation—needing to not think or plan ahead because the person cannot handle it, etc., and that means diminishing the other person’s needs, abilities, whatever, even if it’s not direct in any way.

It can include letting the spouse take the blame for things if the spouse is trying really hard to keep things together and sees their own needs/imperfections too largely (especially if they are in a setting where religious values are being used abusively or not contextualized well enough). ETA: I mean in a larger setting of a church or manipulative religious family culture or religious workplace. 

A person can be a super kind but extremely avoidant person and also basically erase aspects of their spouse altogether in their avoidance and lack of skills due to ND. They just don’t engage.

Add up, for instance, people with raging ADHD often being super inefficient and then picking adrenaline rush jobs that have weird hours, toss in some ND kids that suck up eons of time, and it’s like the frog in the slowly heating pot of water. You don’t know what’s up until it all breaks or there is a lull.

ETA: I know not all people with ADHD present the same way. This is not ADHD bashing—it’s a description of SOME people with it who are not healthy.

 

Edited July 19 by kbutton
Clarity, also fixed an autocorrect

[SKL]

How long has it been since he stopped overreacting and started non-reaction?  I wonder if it's a part of his healing process.  If so, it might be possible to start working on this with him once his initial pain wears off.  But even then, it generally only works if you can bring something up (start with just one reasonably solvable issue) when you are both in a good mood and not in a hurry.

For me, it's impossible to know what's happening, because there are (at least) two personalities involved.  That said, I have a person in my life who has been really challenging over the years, i.e. controlling and never in the wrong.  It has taken a long time, but progress has been made.  I've also realized that sometimes I've been blind to my own weaknesses.

As far as switching to a female counselor, I don't know ... it might be helpful to get an objective guy's perspective on things.  And also, when it comes to counseling, it can be hard to find a good fit; if this guy is pretty good, I'd be reluctant to give him up.  But these are just a couple of considerations.

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

How long has it been since he stopped overreacting and started non-reaction? 

After the relationship with his parents ended, he just stopped being up and down but if I brought up any concerns he would blame me. Even things that were not remotely connected to me.  That was about 9 years ago now? I think? So I eventually just stopped talking to him about anything that would incite any emotion at all. We talk only about surface level stuff for the most part. 

[maize]

38 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Oh, I wouldn't be sorting the emotions. He would. I just guarantee it will be messy. 

He doesn't have anger issues at all. He is not unsafe. He is just not emotionally available and if his emotions are triggered in any way, he blames me or taps out. 

This is not physically unsafe, but it is creating an emotionally unsafe environment for you--which you are recognizing when you worry about what may happen if something like menopause makes it harder for you to maintain the very tight emotional control and self regulation that is required to not rock the ship and trigger abuse from him.

You aren't being given room to be a full person with emotions and needs and a desire for open connection in your own home.

[maize]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think it is possible for an abuser to become more self aware and change—particularly if the behaviors are stemming out of abuser’s own dysregulation and not out of a direct intent to harm—but OP can only manage OP. OP changing her part in the dynamic may lead the other to change their behaviors, or other may not change—but either way OP can face the dynamic with a clearer sense of reality and more tools in her toolbox. 
 

Right now she is living in a false peace, made possible only because she is managing the other person. She’s maintained that for her own reasons and she needs to understand the dynamics of that deeper. 

This is very well said.

My very challenging marriage has survived and has in fact improved over the years because my husband, in spite of his disregulation and abusive behavior, is a person with real underlying humility and a genuine desire to be a good husband, a good father, a good person. 

He hasn't given up on trying, I haven't given up on him, and our marriage has grown in positive ways over the years. In his case, finding effective mental health treatments has been critical, but as those have kicked in his ability to reflect and develop insight into himself have also improved and that has helped him develop better coping skills and relational skills beyond what medication and TMS could do.

There has been real trauma for me and our children along the way though; it has been an incredibly difficult path.

[SKL]

There are things I won't talk about with challenging people because it almost always develops into an exchange I consider disrespectful.

That said, I have recently started to ask myself how much of that is me vs. the Challenging Person.  More specifically, is the other person's speech actually disrespectful, or am I being overly sensitive or rigid in my thinking?

And right now, I have a deja vu feeling - like I mentioned this on another thread and got accused of gaslighting the OP.  I'm not trying to gaslight the OP.  I'm just acknowledging / agreeing that this can be really complex to figure out.

I hope continued counseling and meditation can help the OP figure out these complexities and get back to having good chats with her dh.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 How do I help this person see it when they always end up blaming me?

 

that depends.

Is it someone who learned lousy personal interaction skills (but wants to be a good person)?  or someone who is beyond jerk and thinks they never do anything wrong?
someone with lousy personal interaction skills might be willing to learn healthier ways to relating, but that's probably not something you can do yourself.

some who is beyond jerk - you can't.  and they'll "blame you" for even mentioning it.  All you can do is learn appropriate boundary enforcement.

[gardenmom5]

 

 I blame MS.

Edited July 19 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

I tried to not do a duplicate post . . . 

Edited July 19 by gardenmom5

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

He does not do marriage therapy. Several of his coworkers do and he can refer us. I do not think that DH would do marriage therapy tbh. And I cannot ever decide if it is worth the messiness to try to sort out all of these emotions he has been stuffing. When he is emotional, for some crazy reason, I am the target. When he just stuffs the emotions, he is happier.

So when do you get to be "happier?"

Why do you have to be the one who puts your own emotional needs and feelings aside?

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but I can't really understand why you would remain in that kind of marriage, particularly when you know your dh isn't open to getting the psychological help he needs.

It sounds like he has you convinced that you aren't important enough to be happy. 😞 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

He is just not emotionally available and if his emotions are triggered in any way, he blames me or taps out. 

Ok, there actually is some evidence that expressing emotion can make the emotion stronger rather than relieving the pressure. Like people choose to wallow in negative emotions excessively instead of seeking support or working through it to get to something stable. So I wouldn’t necessarily press that. And I know exactly what this is because my DH has had this dynamic and I used to worry about it. Now I only worry when he’s blaming me for his emotions. In DH’s case I’m also sure it’s caused by my MIL. 

Blaming you for his emotions is emotional abuse. Insisting you aren’t able to express your emotions is also emotional abuse. It sounds like you found a good therapist. 

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

So when do you get to be "happier?"

Why do you have to be the one who puts your own emotional needs and feelings aside?

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but I can't really understand why you would remain in that kind of marriage, particularly when you know your dh isn't open to getting the psychological help he needs.

It sounds like he has you convinced that you aren't important enough to be happy. 😞 

I am agreeing with Catwoman here. It is definitely something to think about. What example is it setting for the minor child at home? Part and parcel of trying to figure out all of these things in a troubled marriage is how it affects the kids in terms of what treatment they will consider normal and acceptable from a partner. But then of course severing a marriage has emotional drawbacks too.

Above all. You should not be marginalized in your marriage. That is the place to begin, and it is okay to expect your husband to hear you, and work on his own issues.

[Rosie_0801]

What would happen if you asked him if he liked having an unhealthy marriage?

If he's fine with it, when put in those terms, I'd spend the next few years getting my ducks in a row so I could move right on out once last kid is launched.

[Clarita]

A person can only change when they want to change. As a special person in his life you could be a trigger for this but it's going to require hard conversations, not gentle happy rosy conversations. High possibility he'll be mad and lash out because you are raining on his parade. Are you ready to handle that? Most people who've had these hard conversations with people in their lives (that I know) say that it's worth it. Worth it when they work through and the relationship is stronger and healthier. Worth it when they realize the relationship isn't going to work out and they are in a better place without this person.   

7 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

When he is emotional, for some crazy reason, I am the target.

This isn't crazy, you are his safe person. Like a toddler who behaves like an angel to everyone else can throw a temper tantrum at his mom, because his mom will continue to love him, make him food and snuggle him when other people may not. The toddler loves his mom and she is likely his favorite person. 

[maize]

You can get pretty warn out being the safe grownup/emotional punching bag to another grownup. 

It's not sustainable.

I agree that you are going to need to have some serious conversations with him. And yes, they are going to be uncomfortable.  And will probably require multiple iterations.

If he is truly a good man, he will stop burying his head in the sand and start working on the things he needs to work on to become a genuine and safe partner.

[Scarlett]

My best friend is currently trying to unlearn a lifetime of going along to get along.  She has reached a boiling point.  She is learning things in therapy that I have been telling her since we were very young.  For one——peace at all costs is no peace at all.  Their therapist has shared some information with her about generational trauma.  
 

Sounds like you and your Dh are both going a long to get along to some extent.  You will eventually reach a boiling point. I hope you find a way to resolve things. 

[elegantlion]

18 hours ago, maize said:

This is not physically unsafe, but it is creating an emotionally unsafe environment for you--which you are recognizing when you worry about what may happen if something like menopause makes it harder for you to maintain the very tight emotional control and self regulation that is required to not rock the ship and trigger abuse from him.

You aren't being given room to be a full person with emotions and needs and a desire for open connection in your own home.

This...

17 hours ago, Catwoman said:

So when do you get to be "happier?"

Why do you have to be the one who puts your own emotional needs and feelings aside?

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but I can't really understand why you would remain in that kind of marriage, particularly when you know your dh isn't open to getting the psychological help he needs.

It sounds like he has you convinced that you aren't important enough to be happy. 😞 

This is so extremely valid. 

I left a financially and emotionally abusive marriage. I wanted to stay in my marriage and be emotionally supportive of my spouse during some rough times. I had thought that we both agreed that we were not at our best and that that our marriage not meeting in the middle was an affect of that. I was prepared to live in a loveless marriage that forced me to walk on eggshells. Then I found out he had lied about drinking (again- addiction issues were off and on in his life). Then an opportunity arose for me to leave without huge amounts of drama and I did. It's been long enough now, so I feel like I can type it out here, he was arrested for a DUI and spent 2 years in prison. It really was the catalyst for my own freedom without fear of him trying to retaliate or make a huge drama about everything involved in leaving a spouse and custody of a child (ds was a teen). 

I realized as I started over that I had always been an accessory in ex's life. He had a vision of what a wife & mother should be and rarely listened to my opinion, my own hopes or fears, or my cautions about things. His words and actions left me feeling like I had little voice in anything - homeschooling was mostly mine but even then he unconsciously tried to undermine my efforts a couple of times. 

In the decade since, I have discovered how much damage he did to my emotional well-being (not to speak anything about the financial abuse), our son's emotional health (ds has anxiety). I'm in a healthy relationship now  where my SO listens, supports my hopes, allays my fears. He cannot believe the way that ex treated me. 

I still get emotional talking about this because if you'd told me 12 years ago that I would consider myself happy and not have to walk on eggshells in my own home, I would not have believed it. 

You deserve to be happy. Do you have to leave your dh for that to happen. I don't know but his change is not up to you. There is a fine and narrow line between being a supportive spouse for a man who is suffering themselves to becoming an accessory in his life. You are a whole person on your own. 

 

[Scarlett]

@elegantlion thank you for sharing that. I have long wondered what happened because it was clear it was deeply traumatizing to you.  
 

I too was an accessory to my xh.  That is a good way to put it.  From the time we were teens he wanted me because he thought I was beautiful.  And then oddly enough he began to get jealous of me as the years went by.  He had his own addiction issues and FOO issues but I would have also stayed and walked on eggshells the rest of my life. Because 1) I felt strongly about my vow and 2) I wanted to keep our son’s FOO in tact.   I lived my own life with ds and I was very happy in many ways,  but there was always that under lying fear he would be displeased over minor things.  I got home from running errands later than expected and did not have the house perfect, or any number of things. I tried hard to be perfect but I don’t have the personality to keep,quiet when it gets too ridiculous…..so that caused issues too. 
 

He finally went to far in his disrespect with an affair I got proof on (otherwise he would lie and gas light me).  
 

I too had no idea how wonderful a respectful and kind marriage could be even with two strong personalities like Dh and me.  I have been divorced from xh for 15 years and married to Dh for almost 14 years but I still find myself jumping up to look busy when I hear the garage door open.  Those wounds can last a long time.  I also tend to itemize to Dh my day’s accomplishments.  He finally has asked me to stop doing this….lol

Amyway, there is no way to know the level of dysfunction in anyones marriage.  @Ann.without.an.e I do wish you peace and I really never encourage anyone to get divorced but I do encourage calling things like they are.  My best friend literally calls me nearly every day to ask if she is being too petty to mention to her Dh something that upsets her. He idea of what is normal is way off.  

[elegantlion]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

@elegantlion thank you for sharing that. I have long wondered what happened because it was clear it was deeply traumatizing to you.  
 

 I have been divorced from xh for 15 years and married to Dh for almost 14 years but I still find myself jumping up to look busy when I hear the garage door open.  Those wounds can last a long time.  I also tend to itemize to Dh my day’s accomplishments.  He finally has asked me to stop doing this….lol

 

OMG, yes. I work part-time and am working on a dissertation at home on the other days. I still find myself wanting to apologize to SO when I don't get to the dishes even though he gets that I'm WORKING at home on some days, not focusing on housework. 

[knitgrl]

One example comes to mind. I know a woman who struggles with anxiety, yet manages to live life pretty normally. During COVID, her husband just kept telling her how bad it was, how contagious it was, how many people were dying, and he would not shut up about it despite her visible distress and asking him to stop multiple times. In my mind, that is clearly emotional or psychological abuse.

[aaplank]

I highly recommend Natalie Hoffman's book, "Is it Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage. A Christian's Woman's Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse "

I don't know if you are a Christian, but I don't think it matters . The advice and perspective of someone who's lived through hell speaks to every woman, no matter her background.

She also has a podcast and website that you might want to check out. I think she has a checklist to see if you are in an emotionally abusive marriage.

She was very instrumental in helping me name it so I could face what was happening in my marriage head on. 

[cintinative]

I  really like the book The Emotionally Destructive Relationship by Leslie Vernick.  The book addresses other relationships other than just marriage, but she also has a book called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage.  https://leslievernick.com/the-emotionally-destructive-marriage/assessment/

[Eos]

On 7/19/2024 at 11:22 AM, Ann.without.an.e said:

I have had to just deal with all things emotional and simply not share them with him or let him in on it as much as possible in order to keep peace. I don't share my emotions with him either. We are very much at peace and never fight. This is because I am a peacemaker and I just don't rock the boat. It works. 

Doing all the emotional labor in a relationship is exhausting. Hugs.

[Scarlett]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:22 AM, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

 

He has gotten to live mostly in a bubble for a while now, where I have had to just deal with all things emotional and simply not share them with him or let him in on it as much as possible in order to keep peace. I don't share my emotions with him either. We are very much at peace and never fight. This is because I am a peacemaker and I just don't rock the boat. It works. 

This is exactly how my friend has been until the last few years when everything blew up. They never fought. She was well trained from her FOO to stuff her feelings, sweep issues under the rug, go along to get along. They hit a breaking point when when they had some problems…..external extended family problems.  They disagreed on these issues and how to handle them and from there he really seemed to lose his mind and become a different person.  Those years burst something lose in her and she is  just very angry.  And does not tolerate him anymore.  He is trying to undo some damage he did and she is trying to learn how to express her emotions in a constructive way before she reaches the boiling point.

Also to your point of him needing to blame you….my xh ALWAYS had to blame someone for everything and it was usually me. My mom still laughs about the time he spotted a tiny tear in the kitchen vinyl and went nuts like it was the end of the world. It was newer…maybe a few years old….but I did not know how it happened. He conducted an inquisition in from of my mom ( who was there) and myself.  He said, ‘SOMEONE knows how this happened’.  My mom started laughing because it was comical to her……I remember realizing that she thought it was funny and I had dread in my heart.  Accidents of any kind, were also a big deal.  I think those responses (of xh needing to blame and be angry over accidents) come from a place of fear and insecurity….but it doesn’t make it any easier to live with on the receiving end.

 

Edited July 21 by Scarlett

[Ann.without.an.e]

Thank you for all of your kind responses and thoughtful input. 

@Scarlett You hit the nail on the head of how I felt for the first 10-15 years or so of my marriage as far as always needing to seem or feel productive. I think a dual dynamic caused this for us. DH was an extreme perfectionist who would get really unsettled if things weren't in order. I remember the first thing he got upset at me about was leaving a single cereal bowl in the sink and heading out because I was running late, thinking I would wash it when I returned. He truly couldn't wrap his head around the lack of responsibility that would lead me to think that was an ok decision. This definitely comes back to his FOO and his dad's extreme OCD with neatness and everything being perfect all of the time. FIL yelled at my kiddo once for dropping a kernel of popcorn on his driveway. If that helps you understand the dynamic at all. I don't think he really understood the degree that his father's issues affected him until the relationship ended. To be honest, weirdly, he changed into a less perfectionistic, more gracious human almost immediately after the relationship ended. 

I do think our earlier marriage caused trauma to both me and our DC. DH is the most proudctive person I have ever met. So it consisted of me always trying to scramble to keep things "perfect for daddy"and that isn't a good foundation for kids. The kids and I have talked about this, they recognize the faulty system, I've apologized for my part in it, they all struggle with never feeling productive enough, and they've had to deal with this in their own ways. We all also recognize that he has changed tremendously. Part of my struggles are a sort of PTSD from the past and not who he is now. I know that and I'm trying to work through it. 

He actually is a really good man. He doesn't have control issues at all. In fact, financially he has no idea where we are and if I died, he'd be lost lol. He fully and completely trusts me to handle it all even though he is the tighter one with money. He trusts me with a lot of things. He isn't angry or demanding. He is a really kind hearted person for the most part. 

As far as blaming me, I talked to him. We had a long conversation about it. It went well. I think I have had a part in this problem. I have often just let my peacemaking side take the lead and I just shrink back when he shifts blame to me. I don't usually counter it or object. I just opened up to him less and less as it has happened. So I waited and sat on it and had the conversation when we were already talking about other things and he seemed very receptive, rather than waiting until there was tension. I asked if he has noticed how I don't really talk about important things with him and I've stayed surface level for years, which he admitted is true. I explained how his reactions make me feel and how I cannot be vulnerable with him or share important things if his reaction is going to be to shift it to me. He seemed to understand that he was creating a situation where emotional closeness cannot exist. He apologized.