Phone call from my mom keeping me up

[saraha]

For the past couple of years, I have really reduced time I spend with my mom. It has been really good for me. I talk to her at least once every couple of weeks on the phone. When she calls, if I feel like talking, I will answer, if I don’t, I won’t. It took me a long time to get there. I used to answer no matter what. If I didn’t answer she would get mad. One day I stopped caring of she got mad. When I started letting her go to voicemail every so often a couple of years ago, she started calling my house phone first and if no one answered, calling my cell phone. After several calls during the day while I was at work that were not urgent or emergencies, I stopped answering unless I was prepared to spend some time. That means, when I do answer, she has my full attention, I don’t need to rush her off the phone. 

Well, she didn’t like that. So for the last year or so, she will call, then when I answer go into this whole, “I know you are too busy to talk to me, so I just want to tell you xyz and ask how the kids are doing. Tell everyone I love them, bye” If I try to engage with her on the phone, she just steam rolls over me and hangs up, or continually protests “I know you’re busy, I don’t want to bother you, I just wanted to say xyz and hang up,” and not engage in a conversation with me, even if I try to tell her I’m not busy and have time to talk. If I call her, she will talk for a little while, then say “Well I’m sure you are trying to make dinner (or whatever) so I’ll let you go. Even if I say no, I’ve got plenty of time, she will shove me off the phone when she has exhausted all she wants to tell me about. There are never two way conversations. If I try to talk for more than a couple of minutes about anything, even the kids, she will interrupt and change the subject to something she wants to tell me about. These phone calls are all about her, I know it, and I finally got over it.

Today she called my cell phone and I answered it. she starts talking and says “I’ve called to make a deal with you.” I’m like a deal? “Yeah, I will never call you and bother you ever again if you agree to call me every Sunday evening.” At this point I’m taken aback. I try to say mom, you do t bother me, I answer when I can talk and I don’t when I can’t. When we talk you aren’t bothering me. She cuts me off and goes on and on about how she will try to call me or my sister and how we are always busy, my sister is always at work, or a game, or put to dinner with her boyfriend. I tried to interject again that she is not inconveniencing me when she calls but she is not listening. She has already prepared what she has to say and it’s not really up for discussion, it’s her telling me what she has decided. She goes on about how she is home every Sunday evening and she will wait for me to call and she will never call me again. At this point I’m really upset and I say but mom, I don’t want you to stop calling me. She says “are you going to agree to this deal or not?!?” And I try one more time and say but mom and she interrupts me and says no, this is the deal. I want to know you and the kids are ok and hear your voice, that is what good moms do. (Like I’m not a mom myself) so you just call me every Sunday evening and at this point I’m really upset and I just say ok because I realized that she isn’t asking me how I feel about her idea, she is telling me her idea and I have to go along with it.

Except it’s not ok. It feels like a trap. She will sit next to her phone and wait for me to call, and if I don’t, we’ll I don’t know what will happen. Now I’m all stressed because what if I get busy? What if I plain forget? I know some people have this kind of arrangement, but don’t they both agree on it? I don’t push her off all the time, occasionally I don’t answer, but we never go longer than two weeks, and that’s rare. If I haven’t heard from her in a week or so, I call her. I feel like I’m being villainized for no reason. 

And I’m aggravated with myself for not getting myself out of this some how and now I can’t sleep. I have to get up and take dh to work in the morning and then go to my job for a staff meeting before the site opens for the season and I am already stressed about that and it’s own story. Like, it shouldn’t be causing me this much anxiety, just call her real quick every Sunday evening and be done. And I guess if she came at me like hey, I had this idea, here’s why I think it would be a good thing etc and we agreed on it together, that would be one thing. But calling me and going at me about how she can’t talk to me whenever she wants, and I’m too busy to talk to her and how she will promise to never call me and bother me again if I do this, just makes me feel bad. And insulted too. I give her all the time she wants, she’s the one acting like I won’t make time for her. And now, somehow, I am caught in a trap, like I now have this new requirement of my time on top of an already stressful time we’re  going through.

How do I turn this around?

Edited March 6 by saraha

[fraidycat]

Call her back one day this week that is not Sunday and tell her you do not agree to her edict, so don't sit around waiting for a phone call on Sunday that may or may not happen. Then continue to answer or ignore calls as your time & energy allows. 
 

She's trying to wrestle some control over a situation that you have not allowed her to control for a couple years now (yay you!). You already have your boundaries set on this, she's just trying to push on them to see how firm they are. Smile and wave at her over the fence and carry on with your day. 
 

Hugs. I hope you are able to sleep soon.

Edited March 6 by fraidycat

[Hannah]

I would have been hurt too if someone started their call with a tirade against me. She must of been winding herself up about for quite some time.  If she lives alone that could easily happen.  I don't know your history, but it sounds like she wants some kind of validation that she is still important in your lives.  Maybe she thinks a check-in and your full attention at a fixed time will giver her that?   Or she heard that a friend does it that way?  

If you do call this Sunday and she's calmed herself now that she's delivered her message, would she be more open to listening to you and coming to a new arrangement?

My sisters and I call regularly, but we are quite open about being busy with something else like doing the dishes or even taking a bath.  We call it our live podcasts.  It is a hassle to remember on a Sunday evening, but if she won't budge and you still want to honour her need for connection in this way, could phone while you're doing another task?

[Rosie_0801]

The most likely thing that will happen if you don't call on Sunday nights is she'll backstab you, and probably the Monday following the second Sunday she'll ring and scream at you for being a liar.

You are being villainised because she is a mean person, she likes being the victim and you are an easy target because you're nice.

[saraha]

She is definitely trying to control something she lost control of a while ago. When I was much younger, she taught me to answer every time she called by calling the police on me when I didn’t answer. She did it twice. For the next 20 odd years, I answered every time she called. If she called and I wasn’t home and she left a message, I would call her back the second I got the message. The first thing she would say was she thought she was going to have to call the police on me, it’s a good thing I called back.  She threatened that recently, it seems I remember writing about it on here and @Rosie_0801 was like let her, then when they show up, explain she’s crazy or something like that.  That was a light bulb moment for me.

I’m tempted to call her when I get a chance and say, the other day when you called, you didn’t seem to be in the mood to listen to my opinion on your deal. I don’t really like this deal. You don’t inconvenience me when you call. If I can talk, I answer, and if I can’t I don’t. My Sundays are very unpredictable. Sometimes ds24 or dd22 come home for the weekend and need driven back. Sometimes we make plans as a family. It seems like it would be more stressful to have to stick to a time than to just call each other when we are free.

[maize]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

She is definitely trying to control something she lost control of a while ago. When I was much younger, she taught me to answer every time she called by calling the police on me when I didn’t answer. She did it twice. For the next 20 odd years, I answered every time she called. If she called and I wasn’t home and she left a message, I would call her back the second I got the message. The first thing she would say was she thought she was going to have to call the police on me, it’s a good thing I called back.  She threatened that recently, it seems I remember writing about it on here and @Rosie_0801 was like let her, then when they show up, explain she’s crazy or something like that.  That was a light bulb moment for me.

I’m tempted to call her when I get a chance and say, the other day when you called, you didn’t seem to be in the mood to listen to my opinion on your deal. I don’t really like this deal. You don’t inconvenience me when you call. If I can talk, I answer, and if I can’t I don’t. My Sundays are very unpredictable. Sometimes ds24 or dd22 come home for the weekend and need driven back. Sometimes we make plans as a family. It seems like it would be more stressful to have to stick to a time than to just call each other when we are free.

Call her, say this, then sign off and hang up. It may be anxiety driving her efforts to control you,  but controlling other people isn't an appropriate way to manage anxiety. 

[Grace Hopper]

18 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

Call her back one day this week that is not Sunday and tell her you do not agree to her edict, so don't sit around waiting for a phone call on Sunday that may or may not happen. Then continue to answer or ignore calls as your time & energy allows. 
 

She's trying to wrestle some control over a situation that you have not allowed her to control for a couple years now (yay you!). You already have your boundaries set on this, she's just trying to push on them to see how firm they are. Smile and wave at her over the fence and carry on with your day. 
 

Hugs. I hope you are able to sleep soon.

This is how unhealthy people react when someone sets a reasonable protective boundary. She has, in calculated fashion, made you a player in a game you have no chance of winning. 
 

I agree with the suggestion above to communicate to her what fraidycat stated above, except I’d write her a note and mail it rather than call her to say it (because it sounds like she’d never give you the chance to say it without cutting you off). And the last thing I’d do is dial her up on a Sunday night, even if I have nothing better to do. 
 

If you feel obligated to keep in touch, and tell her about what’s going on with you & yours, write her a letter twice a month. She may not like it but you might feel better. 
 

Gently, I feel like you are intimidated by her, or afraid what she’ll say to others about you. Try to let that go. You are a grown woman with your own life and nuclear family to care for, and she has a history of poor behavior. 

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

Call her, say this, then sign off and hang up. It may be anxiety driving her efforts to control you,  but controlling other people isn't an appropriate way to manage anxiety. 

That’s a good point. Maybe I should also suggest she talk to her doctor if she is feeling a lot of anxiety and worry… 

[saraha]

Of course, when I do call and tell her I don’t like her deal, she’ll find a way to make me the bad guy. “All I asked for was one quick phone call a week and you don’t even want to do that. I’m trying to make it as easy on you as I can!  Why are you so mean to me, you just want to argue about everything all the time”  

I think maybe short and sweet is the right way to deal with this. Just tell her my schedules are very chaotic so I want to keep our communicating the way it is. We check in with each other as we are free. If she starts in, I just need to say, having a set time doesn’t work for me and we should just keep it the same and find a way to hang up.

[Rosie_0801]

Hon, if your plan is to do what you want to do, just as you have been, you don't need to call and tell her so. All that'll do is open you to attack.

[Katy]

She’s extremely anxious, it’s much worse when she’s not in control of everything, and she wants to be in control of how often and long she gets to talk to you. So she tiraded herself into being in control and successfully transferred some of her anxiety to you. 

Take back consent. And consider calling her on Sunday anyway when it’s convenient for you. And if she calls the police tell them she has undiagnosed anxiety and is extremely controlling as a result. You cannot let her uncontrolled anxiety control your life. 

[TexasProud]

I would change my number and do the thing where all she sees is unlisted when you call.   I cannot imagine being in this situation...  I am so sorry.  But yeah, I wouldn't be tolerant of that much control.  

[Harriet Vane]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

Of course, when I do call and tell her I don’t like her deal, she’ll find a way to make me the bad guy. “All I asked for was one quick phone call a week and you don’t even want to do that. I’m trying to make it as easy on you as I can!  Why are you so mean to me, you just want to argue about everything all the time”  

I think maybe short and sweet is the right way to deal with this. Just tell her my schedules are very chaotic so I want to keep our communicating the way it is. We check in with each other as we are free. If she starts in, I just need to say, having a set time doesn’t work for me and we should just keep it the same and find a way to hang up.

It’s a good plan but she’s not likely to even give you time to speak. Consider a note?

[SKL]

Call her on Sunday evening, give her a quick family update, ask her how she is, and then say "by the way, you can still call me any time, if I'm busy I'll just let it go to voice mail.  I'll still call you on Sunday evenings if I can, and I'll let you know if there's any reason that I can't."

But ... you might actually like this arrangement once you get used to it.

It sounds like she's getting impatient vibes from both you and your sister when she calls.  Maybe she's imagining some of it, maybe some of it is real.  The culture of when you answer the phone and when you don't has changed over her lifetime.  She's not used to the fact that letting a call go to voice mail is pretty normal and today's moms have pretty full schedules.

When I was a young adult, my mom used to hate getting my voice mail when she called.  She told me she won't leave voice mails and would just hang up.  Even now, she literally never calls me just to chat.  If my folks are calling, I'm thinking, "is someone in the hospital?"  They call on my birthday and that's pretty much it.  We definitely enjoy each other's company face to face, though.

Talking on the phone is hard.  When I have my mom on the phone, I am wondering if I'm keeping her from dinner or anything.  It would be better if she said "I'm about to eat in 5 minutes, but if you want to chat, 7pm might be better."  But she's polite and won't say that.  So I am second-guessing and trying to be considerate without knowing all the considerations on her end.  Maybe she thinks I'm being weird though.

Edited March 6 by SKL

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Hon, if your plan is to do what you want to do, just as you have been, you don't need to call and tell her so. All that'll do is open you to attack.

Listen to Rosie. She is very wise.

Go on with your plan. She doesn't get to dictate to you which is what she wants. Continue on. If she doesn't accept your phone calls because it isn't in her plan, that is on her. I would actually make a point of NOT calling on Sunday evenings. She doesn't get to steam roll you.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Gently, it sounds like these phone calls are not about communication for her, but a game she can win.  You don't have to play her game.

[SKL]

I feel like what I read was, "My mom's phone calls annoy me.  How dare my mom think her phone calls annoy Me?"

I think that giving Mom's solution a try may be freeing for the OP.

[Indigo Blue]

7 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Gently, I feel like you are intimidated by her, or afraid what she’ll say to others about you. Try to let that go. You are a grown woman with your own life and nuclear family to care for, and she has a history of poor behavior. 

This, Saraha. And I say this because this applies to me, as well. It’s weird that I can see this so clearly in someone else’s situation, but it is so muddy and confusing when it’s happening to me. 
 

Please don’t let her plow over your boundaries. It will get worse if you do. 

[Indigo Blue]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I feel like what I read was, "My mom's phone calls annoy me.  How dare my mom think her phone calls annoy Me?"

I think that giving Mom's solution a try may be freeing for the OP.

They do annoy her. (Rightfully so). So she set a boundary (rightfully so) and was very comfortable and content interacting with her mom within that boundary. Her mom is pushing that boundary and is being controlling. And mean. 
 

You don’t deal with people like this the way you deal with reasonable people. 

[maize]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

I feel like what I read was, "My mom's phone calls annoy me.  How dare my mom think her phone calls annoy Me?"

I think that giving Mom's solution a try may be freeing for the OP.

Had mom presented this as an idea she thought might work well for both of them and been open to input or counter-suggestions from her daughter, the "deal" might be worth considering.

That's not what happened here. This wasn't a deal at all (deals involve two-party negotiation and a willingness on both sides to consider compromise). This was a demand, made in an attempt by mom to exert personal control over the daughter and all communication between them.

It's not a healthy or appropriate way of interacting, nor a healthy manner for mom to manage her anxiety. Since mom can't seem to see the inappropriateness herself, it is up to the daughter to establish and maintain appropriate personal boundaries--including maintaining control over her own communication choices. 

This is critical if the daughter wants to preserve the relationship. This is something that isn't always intuitive to people; it's easy to think that compliance is the path to a good relationship with someone who is controlling. Habitual compliance is interrelational poison--it doesn't actually improve the relationship with the controller (because pandering to anxiety just strengthens the anxiety; they will just find more and more things to worry about and try to control)--and it is guaranteed to result in resentment on the part of the person being controlled. Nothing will destroy a relationship faster than a deepening pit of resentment. 

Maintaining appropriate boundaries is critical if you care about someone with controlling tendencies enough to want to maintain a relationship with them.

[Amoret]

nm

(Edited to remove personal details. I understand how hard this is and I am sorry you are suffering).

Edited March 6 by Amoret

[maize]

@saraha, does your mom read texts or emails? Since this is stressing you, I think a message now letting her know you won't be calling every Sunday might be best. Get both the communication and any reaction from her over with so it's not hanging over your head (it would drive me crazy to leave something like that hanging).

Something along the lines of:

"Hi mom,  I've thought about your suggestion that I call every Sunday; it's not going to work for me, my schedule is too variable and I don't want you to feel stressed if I don't get a call in. I'll just plan on continuing to communicate the way we have; feel free to call whenever you want, if I'm available to talk I'll pick up. 

Love you!"

[Grace Hopper]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

@saraha, does your mom read texts or emails? Since this is stressing you, I think a message now letting her know you won't be calling every Sunday might be best. Get both the communication and any reaction from her over with so it's not hanging over your head (it would drive me crazy to leave something like that hanging).

Something along the lines of:

"Hi mom,  I've thought about your suggestion that I call every Sunday; it's not going to work for me, my schedule is too variable and I don't want you to feel stressed if I don't get a call in. I'll just plan on continuing to communicate the way we have; feel free to call whenever you want, if I'm available to talk I'll pick up. 

Love you!"

Great idea!

And you do not have to respond to her texts/emails if she goes the meanie route. 

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

Had mom presented this as an idea she thought might work well for both of them and been open to input or counter-suggestions from her daughter, the "deal" might be worth considering.

That's not what happened here. This wasn't a deal at all (deals involve two-party negotiation and a willingness on both sides to consider compromise). This was a demand, made in an attempt by mom to exert personal control over the daughter and all communication between them.

It's not a healthy or appropriate way of interacting, nor a healthy manner for mom to manage her anxiety. Since mom can't seem to see the inappropriateness herself, it is up to the daughter to establish and maintain appropriate personal boundaries--including maintaining control over her own communication choices. 

This is critical if the daughter wants to preserve the relationship. This is something that isn't always intuitive to people; it's easy to think that compliance is the path to a good relationship with someone who is controlling. Habitual compliance is interrelational poison--it doesn't actually improve the relationship with the controller (because pandering to anxiety just strengthens the anxiety; they will just find more and more things to worry about and try to control)--and it is guaranteed to result in resentment on the part of the person being controlled. Nothing will destroy a relationship faster than a deepening pit of resentment. 

Maintaining appropriate boundaries is critical if you care about someone with controlling tendencies enough to want to maintain a relationship with them.

Maybe what Mom was really saying was:  "Trying to call you at random times in the hope that you'll be available isn't working for me.  I've given this a lot of thought, and I think it would work better if you call me each Sunday evening when you have a moment to talk.  Can we try that?"

The current arrangement isn't working for Mom, for whatever reasons.  It sounds like Mom has some mental health issues that aren't in great control.  But besides that, random calling times don't work for a lot of people who are mentally sound.

I agree that Mom shouldn't be controlling the relationship 100%.  But that doesn't mean Mom isn't allowed to address an arrangement that isn't working for her at all.  The suggestion doesn't sound insane.  It sounds freeing.  Just maybe 15-30 predictable minutes once a week, instead of wondering if it's Mom every time the phone rings.  Maybe it won't last, but the suggestion isn't crazy or mean on its face.

[Amoret]

The suggestion isn't insane. With normal people, it would be fine. The problem here is that Saraha is not allowed to say "no" to her mother without suffering.

Edited March 6 by Amoret

[Faith-manor]

31 minutes ago, maize said:

Had mom presented this as an idea she thought might work well for both of them and been open to input or counter-suggestions from her daughter, the "deal" might be worth considering.

That's not what happened here. This wasn't a deal at all (deals involve two-party negotiation and a willingness on both sides to consider compromise). This was a demand, made in an attempt by mom to exert personal control over the daughter and all communication between them.

It's not a healthy or appropriate way of interacting, nor a healthy manner for mom to manage her anxiety. Since mom can't seem to see the inappropriateness herself, it is up to the daughter to establish and maintain appropriate personal boundaries--including maintaining control over her own communication choices. 

This is critical if the daughter wants to preserve the relationship. This is something that isn't always intuitive to people; it's easy to think that compliance is the path to a good relationship with someone who is controlling. Habitual compliance is interrelational poison--it doesn't actually improve the relationship with the controller (because pandering to anxiety just strengthens the anxiety; they will just find more and more things to worry about and try to control)--and it is guaranteed to result in resentment on the part of the person being controlled. Nothing will destroy a relationship faster than a deepening pit of resentment. 

Maintaining appropriate boundaries is critical if you care about someone with controlling tendencies enough to want to maintain a relationship with them.

This. Also, there is a lot of history to this relationship, very negative, control issues in SO many areas with this mother. So this particular issue is just one of a big pile which makes capitulation unwise since it opens the door to more very unreasonable demands, and abusive control attempts done the road.

It took a while to train my brother and his wife, several years. It was absolutely worth the very strong boundaries -to outsiders it looked harsh - we put in place. It has been worth it because our stress levels dropped off a cliff. He has zero boundaries with his wife, and she is just a truly awful person to allow to have an inch of real estate in your head/life.

So I get why this a big deal even if it doesn't seem like it on the face of it.

[Grace Hopper]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe what Mom was really saying was:  "Trying to call you at random times in the hope that you'll be available isn't working for me.  I've given this a lot of thought, and I think it would work better if you call me each Sunday evening when you have a moment to talk.  Can we try that?"

The current arrangement isn't working for Mom, for whatever reasons.  It sounds like Mom has some mental health issues that aren't in great control.  But besides that, random calling times don't work for a lot of people who are mentally sound.

I agree that Mom shouldn't be controlling the relationship 100%.  But that doesn't mean Mom isn't allowed to address an arrangement that isn't working for her at all.  The suggestion doesn't sound insane.  It sounds freeing.  Just maybe 15-30 predictable minutes once a week, instead of wondering if it's Mom every time the phone rings.  Maybe it won't last, but the suggestion isn't crazy or mean on its face.

Sorry, not freeing to feel an obligation to someone who uses whatever you do - no matter how compliant or well-intentioned- to make you the villain. Your suggestion may be appropriate for a relationship in which a loving mother struggles with anxiety. However, saraha's has a (long documented on this forum) issue with non-loving, controlling interactions. 
 

saraha deserves the freedom to just say no to those demands. 

[Amoret]

(double post)

Edited March 6 by Amoret

[fraidycat]

36 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe what Mom was really saying was:  "Trying to call you at random times in the hope that you'll be available isn't working for me.  I've given this a lot of thought, and I think it would work better if you call me each Sunday evening when you have a moment to talk.  Can we try that?

IF that was what she really saying, she would have listened the several times that Saraha tried to insert her own responses into the conversation. But that is not what happened. Her mom was not asking "can we try that?" and does not care whether Saraha "has a moment to talk" because she was not asking anything; she was issuing a proclamation about how Saraha is supposed to arrange her Sunday evening schedule from now on.

What she really said was "you not being at my beck and call is not working for me, so I've given this a lot of thought and this is how I am taking control whether Sunday evenings works for you or not."

[prairiewindmomma]

Right….when she blows up as you re-establish a boundary, because she will, remember that she is upset about the loss of control and her rebounding wave of anxiety. The things she will say about you arent reflective of who you are. You arent a terrible person or a bad daughter. Put up that shield around yourself. Just as she’s not able to really listen and reflect on what you are saying or feeling or have a two way conversation with you—what she will say about you is not reflective of you. Her words will fit the narrative she has built up to justify her actions. But that’s not you. You arent a terrible person. 

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

IF that was what she really saying, she would have listened the several times that Saraha tried to insert her own responses into the conversation. But that is not what happened. Her mom was not asking "can we try that?" and does not care whether Saraha "has a moment to talk" because she was not asking anything; she was issuing a proclamation about how Saraha is supposed to arrange her Sunday evening schedule from now on.

What she really said was "you not being at my beck and call is not working for me, so I've given this a lot of thought and this is how I am taking control whether Sunday evenings works for you or not."

Well OP also wasn't responding correctly IMO.  Instead of responding to the proposal, she kept insisting that she doesn't have any issue taking her mom's calls at random times (which is clearly untrue).  OP could have listened and said, "let me think about that and get back to you."  Or, "Sundays are hard but I could try Saturday afternoons."  Or "no, I can't commit to that because my weekends are unpredictable."  After failing to convince her mom that she actually doesn't mind random calls at random times, she finally said "OK."

[Grace Hopper]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well OP also wasn't responding correctly IMO.  Instead of responding to the proposal, she kept insisting that she doesn't have any issue taking her mom's calls at random times (which is clearly untrue).  OP could have listened and said, "let me think about that and get back to you."  Or, "Sundays are hard but I could try Saturday afternoons."  Or "no, I can't commit to that because my weekends are unpredictable."  After failing to convince her mom that she actually doesn't mind random calls at random times, she finally said "OK."

saraha can clarify, but I think you are misunderstanding/misrepresenting what saraha said. She told mom she could call anytime; if s is not in the midst of something, she’ll pick it up and converse. I believe this is how many people operate even within healthy relationships - I’m certainly not a servant to my phone, especially if I’m washing dishes, driving, doing deep work, in a meeting. saraha’s life is particularly complicated right now, she’s doing husband care, elder care, working a job and being available for her own children. She is genuinely busy with an erratic schedule. 
 

Her mom, instead of understanding this and being flexible or even helpful, has set out a hoop and demand that s drop everything and jump through it. When s tried to say it wouldn’t work, mom steamrolled. 

Edited March 6 by Grace Hopper

[fraidycat]

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well OP also wasn't responding correctly IMO.  Instead of responding to the proposal, she kept insisting that she doesn't have any issue taking her mom's calls at random times (which is clearly untrue).  OP could have listened and said, "let me think about that and get back to you."  Or, "Sundays are hard but I could try Saturday afternoons."  Or "no, I can't commit to that because my weekends are unpredictable."  After failing to convince her mom that she actually doesn't mind random calls at random times, she finally said "OK."

She was responding perfectly fine.

She answers calls when she is available to talk, and doesn't when she is not available to talk. That is how the world works. In most healthy relationships it is unspoken yet understood.

Saraha has no desire to change the way phone communication with her mother works. The way it works now was a hard-fought-battle to build those boundaries. Just because her mother has decided to test the boundary does not mean Saraha needs to capitulate to her demands to set a schedule or change anything. She'll answer when she has the spoons and ignore when she doesn't.

[OH_Homeschooler]

9 hours ago, saraha said:

I’m tempted to call her when I get a chance and say, the other day when you called, you didn’t seem to be in the mood to listen to my opinion on your deal. I don’t really like this deal. You don’t inconvenience me when you call. If I can talk, I answer, and if I can’t I don’t. My Sundays are very unpredictable. Sometimes ds24 or dd22 come home for the weekend and need driven back. Sometimes we make plans as a family. It seems like it would be more stressful to have to stick to a time than to just call each other when we are free.

You know, I think I would just carry on as if the conversation never happened. The more you explain your (very reasonable) POV, the more she will fight back. Just continue living your life as you choose and don't open yourself up to any input on that from her. 

[TravelingChris]

I don't demand my children call me anytime.  That is why all three of my kids still have a good relationship with all three kids. And dh and I focus on stuff we share with the kids, not our differences.   But boy, do we get wild stories from our kids---- truly wild stories. Like ds1 has broken off ties to his bio family without telling my dd1 for a while because they just kept refusing to keep boundaries or listen to him.  He has been run over by his mom for over 37 years and he is finally done.  

[maize]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Well OP also wasn't responding correctly IMO.  Instead of responding to the proposal, she kept insisting that she doesn't have any issue taking her mom's calls at random times (which is clearly untrue).  OP could have listened and said, "let me think about that and get back to you."  Or, "Sundays are hard but I could try Saturday afternoons."  Or "no, I can't commit to that because my weekends are unpredictable."  After failing to convince her mom that she actually doesn't mind random calls at random times, she finally said "OK."

OP isn't required to be a perfect child to have the right to establish personal boundaries. Was her response a bit defensive? Possibly. 

Doesn't matter. She's allowed to be an imperfect person who gets flustered or defensive at times.

There is nothing at all that requires she comply with her mother's demand in order to be a decent person or a decent daughter. She is clearly making an effort to maintain a relationship with her mother and to interact with thoughtfulness and kindness while maintaining appropriate control over her own time and her own life.

When the other person regularly steps outside of a healthy range of interaction, attempting to manipulate or control the people around them as a way of managing their own anxiety and experience, it is necessary to establish defenses against such inappropriate incursions. It is healthier to establish boundaries than not to establish them. It is better for the overall relationship. It is better for personal peace and mental health. It is ultimately better for the person doing the overstepping. 

@saraha comes across as genuinely caring about her mother and trying hard to make the relationship as healthy as she can from her side. Criticizing her efforts for being imperfect isn't helpful to anyone, least of all her mom.

It simply isn't possible to have a truly healthy relationship with someone whose brain is not up to healthy relationships. You just have to do the best you can in imperfect circumstances.

[gardenmom5]

 How frequently did you talk on the phone before you stopped answering her phone calls?  How *often* did you answer?  Did you explain to her why you weren't answering every time?   Or expect she’d figure things out on her own?  She may not have actually understood the method to your madness and took it as you didn't want to talk to her, period.

you mentioned your she complained your sister is also "always" busy.  Is your sister also *not answering* phone calls? not talking to her much?  (do you have any other siblings?)  It sounds like she feels rejected by both of her children.

Did you have actual two-way conversations before you stopped answering the phone unless you wanted to? Have conversations always been about her?  have you had the conversation about what is a two-way conversation?  (I get it, my grandmother only had one way conversations, and if I brought up my kids the subject was immediately changed to her favorite's children, and she'd get angry if confronted. It just wasn't worth it to me.  but my mother - I could say "do you want to hear about x,y,z"? and it could change her way of thinking.)

   (Like I’m not a mom myself)   Are your kids fully established independent adults?  College students, Y/A living at home while working - don't count as independent adults.  It's a completely different relationship. (especially if they're married with children of their own and living in a different state.)

 do you live in close enough proximity to actually visit her?

if you know you will be busy come Sunday (or suspect) - call on Saturday, call another time BEFORE Sunday, and let her know - but upfront say you wanted to talk to her.

 

How many days a week did you actually TALK to her before you started not answering her calls?

 

You really need to have a sit down heart to heart.

 

How do I turn this around?

[prairiewindmomma]

I think you are missing years of back history @gardenmom5. She’s been posting about her adventures with her mom for years here. She’s made numerous attempts at healthy interactions in the past and is doing the best she can with a mother who is profoundly controlling and not mentally well.  

[gardenmom5]

 

11 hours ago, saraha said:

That’s a good point. Maybe I should also suggest she talk to her doctor if she is feeling a lot of anxiety and worry… 

I promise the response to that will be a shrill "I'm not anxious. How dare you suggest that!"
 

you might have more luck helping her find activities in her area that will get her involv

 

11 hours ago, saraha said:

Of course, when I do call and tell her I don’t like her deal, she’ll find a way to make me the bad guy. “All I asked for was one quick phone call a week and you don’t even want to do that. I’m trying to make it as easy on you as I can!  Why are you so mean to me, you just want to argue about everything all the time”  

I think maybe short and sweet is the right way to deal with this. Just tell her my schedules are very chaotic so I want to keep our communicating the way it is. We check in with each other as we are free. If she starts in, I just need to say, having a set time doesn’t work for me and we should just keep it the same and find a way to hang up.

what I did with my grandmother. ( boundaries were an unknown concept for years.  We were NOT allowed to hang up unless we had a really good excuse.  She liked to talk for an hour. I'd pull the phone away from my ear while she droned, only putting it back every so often to say  "really?"  "Uh huh", "yeah" . .. . anyway. )

When I realized I didn't have to talk to her, I could hang up if it wasn't convenient, etc.  I would call her once a week and I was willing to talk for 15 minutes - as long as she was polite! (that part is key). I had one phone call that lasted three minutes because I had a 20' phone cord and I had to walk around furniture to hang it up.   it was six months before a phone call lasted seven minutes and close to a year before it lasted 15 minutes.  By then, I didn't have to time the calls as she'd learned to stop being obnoxious because I would say good-bye and hang up AS SOON as she got obnoxious.   And because I would hang up first . . . she was more motivated to not tick me off.  (She also had my sister asking how high she had to jump . . it was not a healthy relationship.)

just so you know - your "but mom, I can talk to you, you don't need to hang up" - IS "feeding" her need for some form of control.

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think you are missing years of back history @gardenmom5. She’s been posting about her adventures with her mom for years here. She’s made numerous attempts at healthy interactions in the past and is doing the best she can with a mother who is profoundly controlling and not mentally well.  

I don't keep a score card on everyone who is active on the forum.  some people maybe able to hold all the information in their heads, I'm not generally one of them.   
and if you read my post below yours, you will note I pointed out her "but mom I'm willing to talk to you" as her mom hangs up - is FEEDING her mother's need for control and power.  (a better response is: Ok, I'll talk to you later".  let the attempts at manipulation backfire.)

Edited March 6 by gardenmom5

[JennyD]

12 hours ago, saraha said:

When I was much younger, she taught me to answer every time she called by calling the police on me when I didn’t answer. She did it twice. For the next 20 odd years, I answered every time she called. If she called and I wasn’t home and she left a message, I would call her back the second I got the message. The first thing she would say was she thought she was going to have to call the police on me, it’s a good thing I called back.  

I had to read this several times just to make sure I was reading correctly. OP, I know you know this, but just for the record, this sort of behavior is not even in the vicinity of normal. It is seriously disturbed, and frankly, disturbing to even think about.   

26 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

She’s made numerous attempts at healthy interactions in the past and is doing the best she can with a mother who is profoundly controlling and not mentally well.  

Seconding this. You are an amazingly devoted daughter, OP.  Your mom can't see it but we sure do.  I (fortunately) don't have personal experience with this sort of thing, but the advice you're getting to hold tight to the hard-won boundaries that have made it possible for you to sustain a relationship at all strikes me as very sound.

Sending you many hugs.

 

 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

11 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

This is how unhealthy people react when someone sets a reasonable protective boundary. She has, in calculated fashion, made you a player in a game you have no chance of winning.  

She can win - she can refuse to play her mother's game.
She needs to grieve the relationship she would have liked to have for the relationship she actually has.

6 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Take back consent. And consider calling her on Sunday anyway when it’s convenient for you. And if she calls the police tell them she has undiagnosed anxiety and is extremely controlling as a result. You cannot let her uncontrolled anxiety control your life. 

calling on sunday will just feed her mother's need for control, which actually feeds the anxiety and makes her more anxious.
I'd consider calling the local police non-emergency number and warning them her very anxioius mother has done, and has threatened to do again as a means of control.

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Listen to Rosie. She is very wise.

Go on with your plan. She doesn't get to dictate to you which is what she wants. Continue on. If she doesn't accept your phone calls because it isn't in her plan, that is on her. I would actually make a point of NOT calling on Sunday evenings. She doesn't get to steam roll you.

we need to be able to give Rosie likes.  It's not fair we can't give her likes . . . 

4 hours ago, almondbutterandjelly said:

Gently, it sounds like these phone calls are not about communication for her, but a game she can win.  You don't have to play her game.

This - it's the only way to win is to refuse to play the game.
incidentally - playing her games, feeds her anxiety and will make things worse.

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I feel like what I read was, "My mom's phone calls annoy me.  How dare my mom think her phone calls annoy Me?"

I think that giving Mom's solution a try may be freeing for the OP.

No, it's not freeing, it's putting herself in her mother's power while feeding her mother's need for manipulation to gain control and anxiety.

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Maybe what Mom was really saying was:  "Trying to call you at random times in the hope that you'll be available isn't working for me.  I've given this a lot of thought, and I think it would work better if you call me each Sunday evening when you have a moment to talk.  Can we try that?"

The current arrangement isn't working for Mom, for whatever reasons.  It sounds like Mom has some mental health issues that aren't in great control.  But besides that, random calling times don't work for a lot of people who are mentally sound.

I agree that Mom shouldn't be controlling the relationship 100%.  But that doesn't mean Mom isn't allowed to address an arrangement that isn't working for her at all.  The suggestion doesn't sound insane.  It sounds freeing.  Just maybe 15-30 predictable minutes once a week, instead of wondering if it's Mom every time the phone rings.  Maybe it won't last, but the suggestion isn't crazy or mean on its face.

This wasn't a two way agreement, it was a dictate from her mother in an attempt to control the communication.  She didn't ask "would this work for you?". It was a 'take it or leave it".  tbh: it was disrespectful.    

I call (usually we text or email) my adult kids - if it doesn't work, we hang up and talk later.  I'll get texts asking if ___ is a good time for them to call/come over.  no one takes offense, no one gets dictatorial. That is two way communication between independent adult children and their parents. 

[Clarita]

Would it help to know that you get to do what you want to do and your mom gets to feel what she feels about it. 

It helped my relationship with my mom when I realized she gets to feel what she feels. It's not my problem to deal with. I can't make her happy; I can't fix her anxiety. All I have control over is which of her behaviors I tolerate and which of her behaviors I don't.

[maize]

A friend posted this on Facebook today and it felt relevant here:

 

[saraha]

7 hours ago, almondbutterandjelly said:

Gently, it sounds like these phone calls are not about communication for her, but a game she can win.  You don't have to play her game.

I totally agree with this, it is not about communication at all. We haven’t had a two way conversation probably ever in my whole life. It’s all about her

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I feel like what I read was, "My mom's phone calls annoy me.  How dare my mom think her phone calls annoy Me?"

I think that giving Mom's solution a try may be freeing for the OP.

You are right. Her calls do annoy me sometimes/ a lot. But I try to never show it, which is why I wait to call her back if I am not in the mood. I’m insulted that she would lead off with “I promise to never call and bother you again” when I go out of my way to be nice.

6 hours ago, maize said:

Had mom presented this as an idea she thought might work well for both of them and been open to input or counter-suggestions from her daughter, the "deal" might be worth considering.

That's not what happened here. This wasn't a deal at all (deals involve two-party negotiation and a willingness on both sides to consider compromise). This was a demand, made in an attempt by mom to exert personal control over the daughter and all communication between them.

It's not a healthy or appropriate way of interacting, nor a healthy manner for mom to manage her anxiety. Since mom can't seem to see the inappropriateness herself, it is up to the daughter to establish and maintain appropriate personal boundaries--including maintaining control over her own communication choices. 

This is critical if the daughter wants to preserve the relationship. This is something that isn't always intuitive to people; it's easy to think that compliance is the path to a good relationship with someone who is controlling. Habitual compliance is interrelational poison--it doesn't actually improve the relationship with the controller (because pandering to anxiety just strengthens the anxiety; they will just find more and more things to worry about and try to control)--and it is guaranteed to result in resentment on the part of the person being controlled. Nothing will destroy a relationship faster than a deepening pit of resentment. 

Maintaining appropriate boundaries is critical if you care about someone with controlling tendencies enough to want to maintain a relationship with them.

Yes! If she would have talked to me about her needs instead of calling trying to make a pretend deal which was really a thinly veiled demand and acting like I treat her poorly! 

6 hours ago, maize said:

@saraha, does your mom read texts or emails? Since this is stressing you, I think a message now letting her know you won't be calling every Sunday might be best. Get both the communication and any reaction from her over with so it's not hanging over your head (it would drive me crazy to leave something like that hanging).

Something along the lines of:

"Hi mom,  I've thought about your suggestion that I call every Sunday; it's not going to work for me, my schedule is too variable and I don't want you to feel stressed if I don't get a call in. I'll just plan on continuing to communicate the way we have; feel free to call whenever you want, if I'm available to talk I'll pick up. 

Love you!"

Unfortunately she doesn’t have a cell phone or access to any internet. She has also been boycotting the post office for several years now.

5 hours ago, SKL said:

Well OP also wasn't responding correctly IMO.  Instead of responding to the proposal, she kept insisting that she doesn't have any issue taking her mom's calls at random times (which is clearly untrue).  OP could have listened and said, "let me think about that and get back to you."  Or, "Sundays are hard but I could try Saturday afternoons."  Or "no, I can't commit to that because my weekends are unpredictable."  After failing to convince her mom that she actually doesn't mind random calls at random times, she finally said "OK."

I absolutely agree that I didn’t  handle it well, which is one of the reasons I was up all night kicking myself.

 

You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for understanding. I haven’t gotten the nerve to call her yet. Thanks for helping me have a balanced view, I am so hopelessly left of center when it comes to anything dealing with her.

[saraha]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 How frequently did you talk on the phone before you stopped answering her phone calls? 
I answered every time she called, she set the frequency .

How *often* did you answer?  Did you explain to her why you weren't answering every time?   Or expect she’d figure things out on her own?  I did not explain. 
She may not have actually understood the method to your madness and took it as you didn't want to talk to her, period.

you mentioned your she complained your sister is also "always" busy.  Is your sister also *not answering* phone calls? not talking to her much?  I am not close to my sister, I have no idea how often they talk. My mom definitely tries to keep track of when we talk to each other though to triangulate.

(do you have any other siblings?)  It sounds like she feels rejected by both of her children. I have a younger brother who cut her off witthout another word about 15 years ago.

Did you have actual two-way conversations before you stopped answering the phone unless you wanted to? No

Have conversations always been about her?  Yes, always since the beginning of time

have you had the conversation about what is a two-way conversation?  NO

(I get it, my grandmother only had one way conversations, and if I brought up my kids the subject was immediately changed to her favorite's children, and she'd get angry if confronted. It just wasn't worth it to me.  but my mother - I could say "do you want to hear about x,y,z"? and it could change her way of thinking.)

   (Like I’m not a mom myself)   Are your kids fully established independent adults?  College students, Y/A living at home while working - don't count as independent adults.  It's a completely different relationship. (especially if they're married with children of their own and living in a different state.) My oldest ds is 24, has Asperger’s, doesn’t drive and has lived independently in his own apartment an hour away for over two years. He never calls me, but replies to texts I send within 24 hours. We have a good relationship as far as I know.

 do you live in close enough proximity to actually visit her? I live an hour and 15 minutes away. It was always too far for her to come visit, I always had to bring the kids to her. Even when she worked halfway between us. She hasn’t even offered to come visit since ds13 was born and she couldn’t find my house if she wanted to. For the last couple of years We have visited thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and one time over the summer. We have also met halfway between a few times.

if you know you will be busy come Sunday (or suspect) - call on Saturday, call another time BEFORE Sunday, and let her know - but upfront say you wanted to talk to her.

 

How many days a week did you actually TALK to her before you started not answering her calls? As often as she wanted, sometimes once a week, sometimes multiple times a week 

 

You really need to have a sit down heart to heart.

 

How do I turn this around?

 

Edited March 6 by saraha

[KungFuPanda]

I missed a few replies so forgive me if this has been suggested, but I would nip the Sunday obligation in the bud. I’d call on Saturday and explain that I’m gonna be busy this Sunday but wanted to check in beforehand so she didn’t worry.  She won’t be armed and ready on Saturday. 😬 I’d keep that call time very random so she doesnt get weird and call the police if you miss a mandatory call day. 
 

 

[Ditto]

1 hour ago, maize said:

A friend posted this on Facebook today and it felt relevant here:

 

This made me cry.  While I am not the OP, I want you to know that I desperately needed to hear this and didn't realize it until I read it.   Thank you so very much for sharing it.

[saraha]

((( @Ditto)))

[Ditto]

8 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Listen to Rosie. She is very wise.

Go on with your plan. She doesn't get to dictate to you which is what she wants. Continue on. If she doesn't accept your phone calls because it isn't in her plan, that is on her. I would actually make a point of NOT calling on Sunday evenings. She doesn't get to steam roll you.

I like all of this answer and think this is the way to go.   I also agree that Rosie is very wise.   I always learn something from her.