Parental hypervigilance as a cause of the mental health epidemic among American kids and teens

[Terabith]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13PPgss8gr9mcaCEsCqDTLl-ChKIy_Oo4/view

I think there is a lot of merit in this article.  I grew up in the 80s, and my mother was to my perception and the perception of others, a helicopter mom, but the things that she was draconian on seem like common sense these days.  I could only ride in cars with a seat belt.  I'm not sure if I rode in a car seat; I think I did, but it was very unusual when I was born in 1976, and even when my sister was born in 1982, it was moderately unusual.  She made us wear bike helmets when riding bikes after an uncle had a severe head injury while biking.  We weren't allowed to ride in the back of moving pickup trucks.  

There were no other kids in my neighborhood, and I was a bookish kid, so I never experienced the playing outside with a gang of kids for hours and roaming the neighborhood, but my husband did, even though he grew up in what was legitimately a ghetto.  He walked past bars that were still open to get to school, and even the private elementary school he attended didn't have a playground; they used an empty parking lot that had lots of broken glass for recess.  But I still had WAY more independence than any child of the last 20 years.  I started babysitting at age 12, and I had real responsibility for little kids and even infants for 8-10 hours a day in the summer.  I remember reading parenting books at the library, and one of the series I read had a book called Your Five Year Old, that must have been written in the late 60s or early 70s, and it talked about kindergarten readiness, and one of the things on the checklist was "can independently navigate 7-8 blocks to a friend or relative's house."  I was never allowed to do that, because there had been some highly publicized case of a child abduction in somewhere like California.  

I tried very hard to raise my kids in a free range manner, but man, society makes that almost impossible.  My in-law's neighborhood, where my kids spent a lot of time, had other kids and a culture of letting kids run around the block, and my kids did do that.  But in our own neighborhood, where there were fewer kids and they were not kids my kids were friendly with, my kids did not free range.  There is a park within easy walking distance, though the traffic situation isn't great and there's a steep hill.  I tried to send my kids together to the park, but 1) modern parks are constructed in a way to be boring to any kid over about five or six, so there wasn't a lot of inherent interest in the park, 2) there were no other kids there, and 3) my kids were very much aware that even if WE thought it was safe for them to roam, other people did not agree.  And both they and I were very aware of the worries about other people calling CPS.  They got hairy eyeballs and worried comments when I would send them into the store to buy a half gallon of milk at eight or so, even if I just in the parking lot or even another part of the grocery store.  

And it is so much easier to go with the concerns of the most paranoid parents around when parenting in public, both because being perceived as a neglectful parent is shameful and has real social ramifications, but also because it's not polite to let your own kids do something the majority of kids are being forbidden to do, even if it's as innocuous as climbing up the slide or on top of a three foot tall tunnel.  There are gasps of alarm if you allow your child who has demonstrated trustworthiness to run ahead, trusting them to stop when they get to a parking lot.  Kids pick up on that and get scared.  

I didn't know many other parents who allowed their kids to use paring knives to cut vegetables and help cook, including using the stove and oven, from preschool years.  I continually try to educate parents in my capacity as a preschool teacher that their three year olds can indeed take on household tasks like setting the table, washing dishes, helping to fold laundry, and helping to cook in the kitchen or do yardwork.  

Nobody hires 12 year old babysitters these days.  So my kids are entering adulthood with far less experience navigating the world independently, despite my best and consistent attempts to foster this and my recognition from the time they were preschoolers that there is a correlation between overprotectiveness and mental health.  And I knew my kids were at real risk of mental health concerns because of genetics, and indeed, I think my youngest at least was born with anxiety.  She was on a life saving SSRI by the time she was five and in retrospect I wish we'd started at three or at least four, which was when they were first offered by a doctor.  But I'm not quite so sure that my oldest's anxiety issues are inborn in the same way.  

I'm not sure there's much to do about it.  I think the ship has sailed, and our society has decided that no risk is acceptable and so we trade the risks of broken bones (and of course, much lesser risks of more serious injuries) for long term risks like obesity and mental health.  

But I really believe, deep in my bones, that all human beings deserve independence and respect and to navigate the world on their own and have real responsibilities, from ages much younger than most people believe is possible.  

 

[EmilyGF]

Thanks for linking the article. I think this is very important. Our Dutch friends showed us this way of parenting when our kids were young enough that we could change course and I am so thankful they did.

Emily

[fraidycat]

I agree that it has been quite difficult to allow free-ranging in a society that does not want to allow for such thing.

I haven't read the article yet re: mental health, but it does make sense to me that our current norms would have a detrimental effect. Confidence is built by doing.

I've tried to foster independence as much as I could with my kids and it quite often made me "the weird parent", but 🤷🏻‍♀️. I was trying to raise functional adults, so I worked toward that goal. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by fraidycat

[Frances]

TMI

As neither my parents, my husband’s parents, nor my sister did this, I will say I struggle to understand the intense involvement of many parents nowadays in their children’s schoolwork and grades. I am not talking about kids with ADHD or otherwise neurodiverse or those with learning problems like dyslexia. But your average parent of your average child who is regularly checking online grade and hw portals, talking about their kid’s grades, reminding children of assignments and exams, etc. How will the child ever take ownership of school if the parent is more invested than they are? Absolutely I think the parent should be helping with hw when the child asks, modeling good organization and study skills, attending events, showing interest, etc. I’m not suggesting not being an involved, connected parent. But what I’m talking about goes way beyond this. The one semester my son was in middle school I never even made an account for the online grading system. He knew school was his responsibility and we were there for help or assistance with anything he needed. We did talk to him and show him organization/reminder systems that worked for our jobs/lives, but ultimately let him choose what worked best for him. In my generation, school was seen as the child’s job and responsibility. So many parents I see now are micromanaging their child’s  lives to a degree that there is little chance for taking responsibility, maturity, and independence.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frances

[gardenmom5]

Some people - will complain about anything. 

This is one of the things my problem child is complaining about.  I "pushed" them in school. . .  you have an overall IQ of 153. (tested in multiple areas)  yeah, you were BORED. TO. TEARS!  in elementary school (you were demonstrating the math lesson in 2nd grade!, in middle school, in IB!!!!  BORED.  even in college, you. were. bored. . . . you were so bored, you would belittle professors . . . (one of whom it has been decided was unfair), not to mention the attitude towards other students  . . But, yeah, I pushed the education and I'm the bad guy . . . 

my mother was super permissive, and gave almost no guidance or direction (and encouraged me to spend time with my sister . ..)

- which is also bad. . . . 

There has to be a balance, and some kids need more freedom than others, and some kids need more structure than others.

Edited December 24, 2023 by gardenmom5

[Ginevra]

I have not read the article yet, but I’ve been thinking about this and a related issue for a while. (With the caveat that I know I sound like every old person ever, reflecting on all the ways my own childhood was far better than those of “kids these days”…) 

But. Yes. I think, for all its wonders, the tech age is a net negative for kids being born now. I was reading something in Peter Attia’s book Outlive, where he said the average hand strength of males in their twenties is lesser than men who are now fifty when they were that age. I think about that often with my husband, because his hand strength is astounding and I am very certain it is because he has used his hands for physical tasked his entire life. 
 

I sometimes think, kids who are currently babies and toddlers will be largely entertained by screens and not hammering wooden nails into a wooden peg bench or skipping rope. My childhood entertainments were creative, imaginative and physical. Is that even still a thing? 
 

Theres also not a lot of trial-and-error, I think. I remember making a pie when I was probably ten or so. It was terrible, lol! The crust was like weatherstripping in texture. But oh well. I learned those instructions of not overworking the dough had a point. I wonder if kids ever do this now, or is there always an adult to swoop in with a YouTube or tic toc video. Or do t make a pie at all; just buy one. 
 

Now get off my lawn! 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

I have not read the article yet, but I’ve been thinking about this and a related issue for a while. (With the caveat that I know I sound like every old person ever, reflecting on all the ways my own childhood was far better than those of “kids these days”…) 

But. Yes. I think, for all its wonders, the tech age is a net negative for kids being born now. I was reading something in Peter Attia’s book Outlive, where he said the average hand strength of males in their twenties is lesser than men who are now fifty when they were that age. I think about that often with my husband, because his hand strength is astounding and I am very certain it is because he has used his hands for physical tasked his entire life. 
 

I sometimes think, kids who are currently babies and toddlers will be largely entertained by screens and not hammering wooden nails into a wooden peg bench or skipping rope. My childhood entertainments were creative, imaginative and physical. Is that even still a thing? 
 

Theres also not a lot of trial-and-error, I think. I remember making a pie when I was probably ten or so. It was terrible, lol! The crust was like weatherstripping in texture. But oh well. I learned those instructions of not overworking the dough had a point. I wonder if kids ever do this now, or is there always an adult to swoop in with a YouTube or tic toc video. Or do t make a pie at all; just buy one. 
 

Now get off my lawn! 

Except for the ability to easily communicate with people, I think the tech age is a net negative for all of us, not just children born now.

[Clarita]

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how much some parents keep their children from independence. Forget walking by themselves, I've seen parents forbid their babies from eating cooked carrots because they hadn't finish "preparing" the carrot for them.

[Terabith]

7 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how much some parents keep their children from independence. Forget walking by themselves, I've seen parents forbid their babies from eating cooked carrots because they hadn't finish "preparing" the carrot for them.

Or they want to document the eating of it for social media. 

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how much some parents keep their children from independence. Forget walking by themselves, I've seen parents forbid their babies from eating cooked carrots because they hadn't finish "preparing" the carrot for them.

I’ve seen parents stop their preschooler from eating the “adult food” while they prepare kid’s food for them. And then they wonder why their kids are picky eaters!

[stephanier.1765]

Absolutely, littles can accomplish tasks. Just today my grandchildren (3 and 5) snapped beans for tomorrows dinner and cleaned the kitchen floor with wet cleaning rags and loved every second of doing both. Parents who don't are really depriving their kids of learning tasks while the tasks are still fun for the kids to do.

[Meriwether]

We had an emergency reroofing party last week. My sister brought her kids to help. Ages 14+ worked on the roof consistently. All but the youngest spent some time on the roof pulling nails.

The youngest four worked hard picking up trash. Ages 6-11. I'll remove the picture shortly.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Meriwether

[Meriwether]

My 17 year old said working hard on the roof made him feel like a man. He doesn't have as many opportunities to do big and somewhat dangerous things as his farm cousins.

[Frances]

I still have wonderful memories of our roofing party as a child, even our little beagle got up on the roof with us, although our roof was not nearly as steep as @Meriwether’s roof.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frances

[Hyacinth]

I joined a Parents of XX University FB group when ds was a freshman. Some of the questions/comments from other moms were shocking. “Can someone tell me what time the bus picks up in front of the library? I need to make sure my daughter knows.” “My son got a bad grade from a professor who is obviously an awful teacher. Should I file a complaint?” “My son says his room is dirty. Will the school let me hire a cleaning service?” 

[DawnM]

I can see this and I am sure I did some of it as well.   when you. have a special needs child, you tend to start helecoptering.   Or at least I did.   I wanted to much to protect him from life's harshness as he struggled with it.   But I am sure I didn't do it the right way.   And some of that spilled over into other kids who didn't need it as much.

But as a school counselor, the level of, "you need to help my child and hold his hand and it is your fault my child isn't doing well" is unreal.   There are times I will say to a parent, "Are you able to check his Canvas page?   All of the information is on there for you to double check your child's work."   About 3 weeks ago I had a 504 and a parent was upset that her child was failing and she said, "I'm not checking his Canvas and making sure he does his work, I don't get paid for that!   Y'all get PAID for that!   It's y'all's job to make him do his work!"

Um, no ma'am, no it isn't.   

[SKL]

It's a chicken or egg thing.  It's easy to monitor, so more parents monitor, so teachers up the expectations that kids' output will be more than what most kids would do on their own.  Kids whose parents don't "get involved" will be the bottom of the barrel, and everyone will know it, thanks to public announcements of who is doing great (and by implication, who isn't).  Parents of bright kids who appear to be doing poorly in school will increase their "involvement" and kids' results will look better, upping the overall expectations of "kids'" output.

I have struggled with this.  My mom was very hands-off with me regarding school and social stuff.  But, I was self-motivated to do my school work at a high level, and also, it was relatively easy for me.  Was it easier for me because I'd been on my own since day one?  I don't think so, because my siblings didn't have great results despite having the same general upbringing.  Also, my social skills were pretty awful; would more intentional exposure have helped?  (Not that my folks had the choice back then.)

Anyhoo.  I was happy with my kids' progress until that first "awards ceremony" (1st grade) when I realized the majority of the class was doing much better (grades-wise).  I probably should have let it be, but there was a lot of judgment, and also, who wants their kid to be told she's inferior?  So I "got involved."  I do regret some of it.

Then there are what we call "busybodies" who have an opinion about what other people's kids are ready for in the neighborhood.  My kids were never adventurous, but just a one-mile walk to the park (in a quiet suburb) would bring "concern" and accusations.  In front of the kids, who then developed irrational fears of their own.

And it seems there are fewer young kids for our kids to play with nowadays.  Without structured / supervised activities, my kids would hardly ever spend time with kids outside of school ... and without the social aspect, they wouldn't have motivation to move much.  So yes, I put them in / let them join lots of activities.  It seemed better than TV.

I am sure I didn't do everything right, but honestly, there are areas where my kids are ahead of where I was, as well as areas where they are behind.  I guess all we can do is our best.

I'm not sure how much of the trend re mental health is due to an increase in diagnoses, and an increase in trendiness of diagnoses at school.  I know lots of people who were probably "diagnosable" by today's standards, possibly including myself.  I don't think my kids are a worse mess than I was as a teen.

Edited December 25, 2023 by SKL

[FreyaO]

Agree with the above (I have yet to read the article). Wanted to add something tangential, but related. There is an underlying assumption, way of thinking to that: that young people today should aim, hope for "happiness". Partly related to American toxic positivity, partly to social media, probably partly to many other complex factors. But to me this hyper vigilance is just a piece of avoiding hard, problematic, issues, in a sense life. The playground hyper vigilance is the same as removing "triggers" from books. Life is hard. 

[PronghornD]

I am not convinced that this correlation is causation. I was raised to be independent, both due to my mother's philosophy and our challenging family situation. My young adult years were so terribly stressful as I floundered about on my own, being independent, not causing my mother a single bit of grief because, of course, what independent young adult seeks out parental help when floundering. My mother, ignorant of my struggles, thought I turned out wonderful, but I'm not convinced of that.

I tried to hone my parenting to the needs of my specific child, who had spent time in an orphanage prior to coming to us. My child came with issues, so I ended up reading extensively about attachment. I learned that you need to send your kid attachment signals -- that way they will feel less need to cling to you or to feel ambivalent toward you. This is why young kids act up precisely when you are busy and need them to behave! So, I conscientiously sent my attachment signals, which looked very much like hypervigilance to the casual onlooker. When my child did say they were ready for a certain level of independence, though, I immediately provided it, trusting my kid to know themself.

The results are mixed. My kid is now a functioning grad student and a wonderful person. Issues still linger somewhat, but I am not convinced that those issues are due to parental hypervigilance.

[Heartstrings]

17 hours ago, Terabith said:

There are gasps of alarm if you allow your child who has demonstrated trustworthiness to run ahead, trusting them to stop when they get to a parking lot.  Kids pick up on that and get scared

I experienced this so often.    I had to call out “He’s fine, he knows where to stop!”  so many times.  My most rambunctious boy was also a rule follower and understood his boundaries, he really never stepped outside of them.  My boundaries were much broader than other parents though, so there was some rubbing against that.   I felt strongly that he needed to use his body and explore though so I mostly pushed through it.  

[Heartstrings]

16 hours ago, Ginevra said:

But. Yes. I think, for all its wonders, the tech age is a net negative for kids being born now. I was reading something in Peter Attia’s book Outlive, where he said the average hand strength of males in their twenties is lesser than men who are now fifty when they were that age. I think about that often with my husband, because his hand strength is astounding and I am very certain it is because he has used his hands for physical tasked his entire life. 

I think this is because of the over protectiveness of the parents though.  It’s not just that screens are easier, they are safer.    If you let your smash a thumb with a hammer you are judged as negligent, so they play hammer games on the tablet instead.  So many parents are a nervous wreck at the playground because there is so much judgement if a child is injured so they just stay home and catch movies all day.  Taking kids anywhere risks a Karen saying something.  
 

Peoole complain about teens and video games and social media a lot, but really there is no where for them to go.  Everything costs money, they get side eye if they go to a park, chased away for loitering at the mall, if there is one, some places even play tones that hurt the ears of young people but older people can’t hear.  There’s nowhere they can be but home. 

[HomeAgain]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

 

Peoole complain about teens and video games and social media a lot, but really there is no where for them to go.  Everything costs money, they get side eye if they go to a park, chased away for loitering at the mall, if there is one, some places even play tones that hurt the ears of young people but older people can’t hear.  There’s nowhere they can be but home. 

This is a very good point.

We have lost society.  As a kid, even when we didn't know our neighbors, we knew our neighbors, you know?  You knew the freaky lady who sang show tunes and the family with Mary-in-the-bathtub (a barrio shrine), even if you didn't know them personally.  Kids could roam and feel comfortable first in their neighborhoods, where an adult could reasonably direct help, to then branching out.

Now, we're afraid to give children any free time.  Schools have stripped out recess and breaks. Regulations make it impossible for them to walk home.  There are less neighborhood parks and newer houses are designed to keep privacy, not allow people to look out.  "Loitering" is illegal, and more places have policies of 14+ to be alone. Too many places, even theme parks, are going cashless - so kids can't partake.  Even the chocolate store wasn't able to let my child buy a single chocolate ($.75) without a card. Hospital bills are ridiculous, and minimizing injury is a goal for every environment children are in.

This isn't a parenting problem.  It's a community problem.  Agency has been stripped away from children due to fear and things like gun policies that make freedom hard for kids.  Streets don't allow for bike riding outside of smaller neighborhoods.  Community centers are built away from the center of communities. Libraries fret that tweens stop showing up but don't want them there without their parents. Nobody is willing to teach/help the next generation and be part of the community that they themselves are benefiting from.

When the old people die and quit mucking up the world with their terrible policies, maybe the next generation can right the wrongs.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I had a parent call and want to know what their son could do to bring up his grade in my class.

That “child” is 26 and the class is being paid for by his employer.

I sometimes watch the TikTok’s and other social media of adults in my age group talking about their childhoods and I’m a tad envious. My mom was beyond helicopter.  She was terrified of kidnappers in the 80s and 90s to the point that I was 18 before I ever really went to the mall on my own(to be fair to my mom, she had a close relative who’s young daughter was taken from the home, assaulted and murdered, but it was someone who was not a complete stranger to the family—but even now she can’t grasp why stranger abduction doesn’t even register on my concern list).  We didn’t have neighbors because we were so rural you couldn’t even ride a bike anywhere and all homeschooling groups were a good 45 minutes away, so friend gettogethers, even as a teen, required a parental driving and planning.  We had very few families we were allowed to sleepover with. So all of the parental neglect and “being tossed outside to play with neighbor kids for hours” and parents who didn’t really know what their kids were doing ever happened in my life but it seems to be a trend I see talked about. 
I think now the pendulum has swung too far  to the other side, and already I try to give my 13 and 11 year olds much more freedom than I had. The problem comes though that the freedom they want isn’t physical freedom, but online freedom, and that presents a lot more issues.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

There’s also the problem of what is there to do? We live rurally so I also would have to drive my kids somewhere, but where? The mall is boring, they discourage teens; my kids’ school friends don’t live anywhere close by to facilitate play dates during break plus parents generally don’t have the week off, they’ve closed the roller skating rinks of my own youth due to unaffordable insurance costs, there are no churches or youth centers that offer activities anymore. One of our local libraries does have a really nice teen room with activities, but they struggle to get people to come because—and I know this sounds awful—the homeless population has taken over the library and drug use/overdoses/mental health outbursts are almost daily there. But when it’s the only warm place open in a city that no longer has a homeless shelter, only an overnight warming station that is open only from 6pm-6am on nights the temperature falls below freezing—-what do they expect will happen?

Its a societal shift but I am unprepared to parent kids who want to just play video games and I struggle to come up with alternatives.

[Heartstrings]

14 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

This isn't a parenting problem.  It's a community problem. 

QFT.  We have to parent in the society we are actually in.  Parenting didn’t change in a bubble.  

[Frances]

4 hours ago, PronghornD said:

I am not convinced that this correlation is causation. I was raised to be independent, both due to my mother's philosophy and our challenging family situation. My young adult years were so terribly stressful as I floundered about on my own, being independent, not causing my mother a single bit of grief because, of course, what independent young adult seeks out parental help when floundering. My mother, ignorant of my struggles, thought I turned out wonderful, but I'm not convinced of that.

I tried to hone my parenting to the needs of my specific child, who had spent time in an orphanage prior to coming to us. My child came with issues, so I ended up reading extensively about attachment. I learned that you need to send your kid attachment signals -- that way they will feel less need to cling to you or to feel ambivalent toward you. This is why young kids act up precisely when you are busy and need them to behave! So, I conscientiously sent my attachment signals, which looked very much like hypervigilance to the casual onlooker. When my child did say they were ready for a certain level of independence, though, I immediately provided it, trusting my kid to know themself.

The results are mixed. My kid is now a functioning grad student and a wonderful person. Issues still linger somewhat, but I am not convinced that those issues are due to parental hypervigilance.

I don’t think what you were doing was the type of hyper vigilance discussed in the article. It sounds more like you were doing exactly what is research recommended for adopted children from difficult backgrounds.

I also don’t think the article is advocating for the kind of neglectful parenting you experienced, but rather nurturing involved parents who foster independence, risk taking, and maturity in their children. 
 

I don’t think the article is advocating for hands off parenting, as some seem to imply when referencing their own childhoods. Asking about school, attending events, showing interest in what they are learning, etc. is completely fine. Children don’t need to be left to flounder with no help or guidance in order to become independent. Parents can still be very involved and nurturing without micromanaging and hyper vigilance.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

This is a very good point.

We have lost society.  As a kid, even when we didn't know our neighbors, we knew our neighbors, you know?  You knew the freaky lady who sang show tunes and the family with Mary-in-the-bathtub (a barrio shrine), even if you didn't know them personally.  Kids could roam and feel comfortable first in their neighborhoods, where an adult could reasonably direct help, to then branching out.

Now, we're afraid to give children any free time.  Schools have stripped out recess and breaks. Regulations make it impossible for them to walk home.  There are less neighborhood parks and newer houses are designed to keep privacy, not allow people to look out.  "Loitering" is illegal, and more places have policies of 14+ to be alone. Too many places, even theme parks, are going cashless - so kids can't partake.  Even the chocolate store wasn't able to let my child buy a single chocolate ($.75) without a card. Hospital bills are ridiculous, and minimizing injury is a goal for every environment children are in.

This isn't a parenting problem.  It's a community problem.  Agency has been stripped away from children due to fear and things like gun policies that make freedom hard for kids.  Streets don't allow for bike riding outside of smaller neighborhoods.  Community centers are built away from the center of communities. Libraries fret that tweens stop showing up but don't want them there without their parents. Nobody is willing to teach/help the next generation and be part of the community that they themselves are benefiting from.

When the old people die and quit mucking up the world with their terrible policies, maybe the next generation can right the wrongs.

My community and neighborhood must be very different than yours because here teens are welcome and encouraged to use public transportation on their own and go the YMCA and teen drop in center, teen center at the library, numerous volunteer opportunities on their own, etc.  These are all centrally located and all of the outlying lower income neighborhoods have Boy’s and Girl’s Clubs which are specifically designed for children to visit alone. I was just volunteering at a week long holiday event and numerous teens were there volunteering on their own and I even met a few young adults who were reminiscing about their times volunteering as a teen at the same event. Many of the elementary aged kids in my neighborhood walk together to school and we know every child of every age by name in our neighborhood.

I do see and hear about the reduction in recess and I honestly think there should be laws against it. I’m so sick of our public schools regularly going against what research shows is best for children.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frances

[Rosie_0801]

The neighbour's 17yo seemed pleased with the little book on dividend investing I left for him for Christmas. He's been trying to grow up for several years and his parents have been discouraging in so many ways because the system is set up so that the only way a teenager should prove they are as mature as they say they want to be is to behave like the obedient child they have always been. I also left a card saying "$$= choices" so I'm hoping he'll spend a bit less of his money on booze to numb the pain and a bit more on the beginnings of a financial future.

[Frances]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

It's a chicken or egg thing.  It's easy to monitor, so more parents monitor, so teachers up the expectations that kids' output will be more than what most kids would do on their own.  Kids whose parents don't "get involved" will be the bottom of the barrel, and everyone will know it, thanks to public announcements of who is doing great (and by implication, who isn't).  Parents of bright kids who appear to be doing poorly in school will increase their "involvement" and kids' results will look better, upping the overall expectations of "kids'" output.

I have struggled with this.  My mom was very hands-off with me regarding school and social stuff.  But, I was self-motivated to do my school work at a high level, and also, it was relatively easy for me.  Was it easier for me because I'd been on my own since day one?  I don't think so, because my siblings didn't have great results despite having the same general upbringing.  Also, my social skills were pretty awful; would more intentional exposure have helped?  (Not that my folks had the choice back then.)

Anyhoo.  I was happy with my kids' progress until that first "awards ceremony" (1st grade) when I realized the majority of the class was doing much better (grades-wise).  I probably should have let it be, but there was a lot of judgment, and also, who wants their kid to be told she's inferior?  So I "got involved."  I do regret some of it.

Then there are what we call "busybodies" who have an opinion about what other people's kids are ready for in the neighborhood.  My kids were never adventurous, but just a one-mile walk to the park (in a quiet suburb) would bring "concern" and accusations.  In front of the kids, who then developed irrational fears of their own.

And it seems there are fewer young kids for our kids to play with nowadays.  Without structured / supervised activities, my kids would hardly ever spend time with kids outside of school ... and without the social aspect, they wouldn't have motivation to move much.  So yes, I put them in / let them join lots of activities.  It seemed better than TV.

I am sure I didn't do everything right, but honestly, there are areas where my kids are ahead of where I was, as well as areas where they are behind.  I guess all we can do is our best.

I'm not sure how much of the trend re mental health is due to an increase in diagnoses, and an increase in trendiness of diagnoses at school.  I know lots of people who were probably "diagnosable" by today's standards, possibly including myself.  I don't think my kids are a worse mess than I was as a teen.

I’d say the biggest issue here is a school awards ceremony for first graders!?! That’s crazy and very inappropriate. We didn’t even get letter grades until fourth grade and there were no awards ceremonies until middle school. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Frances

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

This isn't a parenting problem.  It's a community problem.  

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  Individual parents like myself can recognize this as an issue from the time their children are toddlers and do their best to act in ways that counter the trend, but the issue is societal, not just individual.

The fact that there is nowhere to go that is not capitalistic, that there are no "third spaces" to exist that don't require spending money, is a huge problem for EVERYONE.  Why should kids walk or ride their bikes when there is nowhere to go?  They aren't allowed at the mall or the library; you have to make a purchase to go to Starbucks; bowling alleys and skating rinks have closed or require parents on premises.  There are many reasons why parks are not appealing.

@SKL makes an excellent point that if you want your kids to be around other kids, you have to sign them up for structured, paid activities.  Other kids are at soccer practice, not roaming the neighborhood, so free range play becomes replaced by adult organized activities, and since kids are far more physically active with other kids, if you want them moving, they have to be in a class or a team of some sort.  That's not a parenting problem; it's a sociological problem.  (And there's nothing wrong with soccer or karate or anything; I think they're great, but the fact that it's the only place where kids can interact with other kids is a huge problem.). Libraries are innundated with the homeless and drug users, and there are signs that you must be 14+ to be there alone.  The YMCA requires both membership and a parent on site if you are under 13.  

I so wanted park days and forest play dates when my kids were little and homeschooling, but the only homeschooling group around was the super structured Classical Conversations that I hated, but we did for three years because it was the only way for my kids to meet other homeschoolers.  They lived for that hour a week of recess after class.  It was pathetically sad.  

Kids aren't the only victims of vanishing third spaces.  Adults have no sources of community, especially as religious faith decreases, that are not paid.  We are increasingly alone.

And that void is taken up by the digital world.  Unlike many people, I don't think the internet is a net evil.  I'm incredibly grateful for it as a source of information, education, and opportunity to meet people from around the world.  Literally my best friends were met online.  One of them saved my life.  The time I spend online with people is a source of real community, support, and joy for me.  The hive feels like my home, and I am so incredibly grateful for it.  I LIKE social media and the way it enables me to be connected to other people.  We have let our kids free range on the internet, and probably because of my kids' temperaments, I think it has been a net benefit for them as well.  I was so grateful for the internet during the pandemic.  I often thought about how hellacious it would have been in the 80s.  For people with niche interests or who are different from people in their physical community, the internet allows you to find people who are LIKE YOU, and that is a source of wonder.  It definitely has drawbacks and problems, but I'm very pro digital community.  But I don't think it replaces physical, geographical, embodied freedom and community either.

[TravelingChris]

19 hours ago, Frances said:

Except for the ability to easily communicate with people, I think the tech age is a net negative for all of us, not just children born now.

And that communication is what is so impossible to so many people.  I had been worried about all the people I know who are mostly isolated because of diseases, injuries, etc because all the new studies coming out that loneliness is deadlier than cigarette smoking.  Then I found out that people who had many internet friends were as protected as people who meet up w others at coffee shops, etc.

[kathyl]

nm

Edited May 30 by kathyl

[Rosie_0801]

Not wonderful. Just different. His parents provide plenty, but don't know this stuff. (Fifteen years on this board has given me a wider imagination than the lower middle class reality I grew up with.) If the lad learns and shares with his mates so they know too, that'll be wonderful. 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

And that void is taken up by the digital world.  Unlike many people, I don't think the internet is a net evil.  I'm incredibly grateful for it as a source of information, education, and opportunity to meet people from around the world.  Literally my best friends were met online.  One of them saved my life.  The time I spend online with people is a source of real community, support, and joy for me.  The hive feels like my home, and I am so incredibly grateful for it.  I LIKE social media and the way it enables me to be connected to other people.  We have let our kids free range on the internet, and probably because of my kids' temperaments, I think it has been a net benefit for them as well.  I was so grateful for the internet during the pandemic.  I often thought about how hellacious it would have been in the 80s.  For people with niche interests or who are different from people in their physical community, the internet allows you to find people who are LIKE YOU, and that is a source of wonder.  It definitely has drawbacks and problems, but I'm very pro digital community.  But I don't think it replaces physical, geographical, embodied freedom and community either.

I think we are saying the same thing. The ability to easily communicate with others is the one overall positive aspect of technology and the internet age. Of course it’s not a substitute for in person community.

At least where I live, volunteering is a place to get free community across ages and many of the arts organizations offer free or reduced price access to space, materials, and community. Also, we have lots of wonderful parks that are great gathering places for people of all ages. When we were at one near downtown and the river this summer, I turned to my husband and said, “It’s become like a big backyard for the city.” They keep adding new features and more and more people are gathering there. That night there were bike riders and walker, exercise classes, young adults playing volleyball, people taking prom pictures, families and couples picnicking, lots of dog walkers and runners, people setting up for an outdoor movie night, lots of music playing, carousel rides, boat rides, etc. Those at the park represented a very diverse cross section of our community.

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think we are saying the same thing. The ability to easily communicate with others is the one overall positive aspect of technology and the internet age. Of course it’s not a substitute for in person community.

At least where I live, volunteering is a place to get free community across ages and many of the arts organizations offer free or reduced price access to space, materials, and community. Also, we have lots of wonderful parks that are great gathering places for people of all ages. When we were at one near downtown and the river this summer, I turned to my husband and said, “It’s become like a big backyard for the city.” They keep adding new features and more and more people are gathering there. That night there were bike riders and walker, exercise classes, young adults playing volleyball, people taking prom pictures, families and couples picnicking, lots of dog walkers and runners, people setting up for an outdoor movie night, lots of music playing, carousel rides, boat rides, etc. Those at the park represented a very diverse cross section of our community.

That’s awesome! When we lived in Denver, the parks were like that!  

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

At least where I live, volunteering is a place to get free community across ages and many of the arts organizations offer free or reduced price access to space, materials, and community.

Where I am almost all volunteer opportunities are 18+.  There are a few that are 14+ if an adult is also volunteering at the same time.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Where I am almost all volunteer opportunities are 18+.  There are a few that are 14+ if an adult is also volunteering at the same time.  

Same here.  You can pack food at the food bank starting at 12 with a parent present, but that’s the only one that I know of.  Finding a job before age 18 is almost impossible as well other than babysitting, and even then it seems most parents want you to be 17 or 18.  Young teens really have a void.

I am very jealous of those of you who live in communities.  

[KungFuPanda]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:10 PM, Terabith said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13PPgss8gr9mcaCEsCqDTLl-ChKIy_Oo4/view

I think there is a lot of merit in this article.  I grew up in the 80s, and my mother was to my perception and the perception of others, a helicopter mom, but the things that she was draconian on seem like common sense these days.  I could only ride in cars with a seat belt.  I'm not sure if I rode in a car seat; I think I did, but it was very unusual when I was born in 1976, and even when my sister was born in 1982, it was moderately unusual.  She made us wear bike helmets when riding bikes after an uncle had a severe head injury while biking.  We weren't allowed to ride in the back of moving pickup trucks.  

There were no other kids in my neighborhood, and I was a bookish kid, so I never experienced the playing outside with a gang of kids for hours and roaming the neighborhood, but my husband did, even though he grew up in what was legitimately a ghetto.  He walked past bars that were still open to get to school, and even the private elementary school he attended didn't have a playground; they used an empty parking lot that had lots of broken glass for recess.  But I still had WAY more independence than any child of the last 20 years.  I started babysitting at age 12, and I had real responsibility for little kids and even infants for 8-10 hours a day in the summer.  I remember reading parenting books at the library, and one of the series I read had a book called Your Five Year Old, that must have been written in the late 60s or early 70s, and it talked about kindergarten readiness, and one of the things on the checklist was "can independently navigate 7-8 blocks to a friend or relative's house."  I was never allowed to do that, because there had been some highly publicized case of a child abduction in somewhere like California.  

I tried very hard to raise my kids in a free range manner, but man, society makes that almost impossible.  My in-law's neighborhood, where my kids spent a lot of time, had other kids and a culture of letting kids run around the block, and my kids did do that.  But in our own neighborhood, where there were fewer kids and they were not kids my kids were friendly with, my kids did not free range.  There is a park within easy walking distance, though the traffic situation isn't great and there's a steep hill.  I tried to send my kids together to the park, but 1) modern parks are constructed in a way to be boring to any kid over about five or six, so there wasn't a lot of inherent interest in the park, 2) there were no other kids there, and 3) my kids were very much aware that even if WE thought it was safe for them to roam, other people did not agree.  And both they and I were very aware of the worries about other people calling CPS.  They got hairy eyeballs and worried comments when I would send them into the store to buy a half gallon of milk at eight or so, even if I just in the parking lot or even another part of the grocery store.  

And it is so much easier to go with the concerns of the most paranoid parents around when parenting in public, both because being perceived as a neglectful parent is shameful and has real social ramifications, but also because it's not polite to let your own kids do something the majority of kids are being forbidden to do, even if it's as innocuous as climbing up the slide or on top of a three foot tall tunnel.  There are gasps of alarm if you allow your child who has demonstrated trustworthiness to run ahead, trusting them to stop when they get to a parking lot.  Kids pick up on that and get scared.  

I didn't know many other parents who allowed their kids to use paring knives to cut vegetables and help cook, including using the stove and oven, from preschool years.  I continually try to educate parents in my capacity as a preschool teacher that their three year olds can indeed take on household tasks like setting the table, washing dishes, helping to fold laundry, and helping to cook in the kitchen or do yardwork.  

Nobody hires 12 year old babysitters these days.  So my kids are entering adulthood with far less experience navigating the world independently, despite my best and consistent attempts to foster this and my recognition from the time they were preschoolers that there is a correlation between overprotectiveness and mental health.  And I knew my kids were at real risk of mental health concerns because of genetics, and indeed, I think my youngest at least was born with anxiety.  She was on a life saving SSRI by the time she was five and in retrospect I wish we'd started at three or at least four, which was when they were first offered by a doctor.  But I'm not quite so sure that my oldest's anxiety issues are inborn in the same way.  

I'm not sure there's much to do about it.  I think the ship has sailed, and our society has decided that no risk is acceptable and so we trade the risks of broken bones (and of course, much lesser risks of more serious injuries) for long term risks like obesity and mental health.  

But I really believe, deep in my bones, that all human beings deserve independence and respect and to navigate the world on their own and have real responsibilities, from ages much younger than most people believe is possible.  

 

This was not my reality raising kids. There was plenty to do offline. We have paved bike paths and pools and libraries and activities to keep kids busy. Our homeschooling group had lots of field trips and casual playing/hanging out dates. Kids can get starter jobs like mowing, shoveling snow, working in restaurants, camp counseling, etc. They used sharp knives and started fires for camping. Some kids are STILL treated for anxiety. I’m wondering what a normal rate is when it’s socially acceptable to get diagnosed and treated. I’m not sure kids are anxious because they were actively parented and not free ranged. 
 

There is a part of me that worries about how much non-food they eat and what the fallout from that will be. I also worry about the kids who aren’t purposely pushed offline and into real live pursuits. I did have the fortune of raising kids before kids had phones and multiple devices. It was usually a central family computer for webkins, type mat, and that penguin game, and a phone in high school that could be taken if it was out in class.  I still see full playgrounds with kids climbing, local swim clubs, loaded ball fields, and thriving scouting programs. 

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

This was not my reality raising kids. There was plenty to do offline. We have paved bike paths and pools and libraries and activities to keep kids busy. Our homeschooling group had lots of field trips and casual playing/hanging out dates. Kids can get starter jobs like mowing, shoveling snow, working in restaurants, camp counseling, etc. They used sharp knives and started fires for camping. Some kids are STILL treated for anxiety. I’m wondering what a normal rate is when it’s socially acceptable to get diagnosed and treated. I’m not sure kids are anxious because they were actively parented and not free ranged. 
 

There is a part of me that worries about how much non-food they eat and what the fallout from that will be. I also worry about the kids who aren’t purposely pushed offline and into real live pursuits. I did have the fortune of raising kids before kids had phones and multiple devices. It was usually a central family computer for webkins, type mat, and that penguin game, and a phone in high school that could be taken if it was out in class.  I still see full playgrounds with kids climbing, local swim clubs, loaded ball fields, and thriving scouting programs. 

That's awesome.  

I do not think that parental hypervigilance is the reason for every child with anxiety and depression.  I'm quite certain kids in the 60s suffered from anxiety and depression.  My father in law's sister was institutionalized for anxiety at the age of 12.  I'm quite sure my youngest child was anxious from birth.  She displayed clear signs from very, very early on.  But I do think there are reasons for sociological upswings in diagnoses, and while more sensitive diagnostic criteria part of the reason, they aren't everything.  I believe pediatric anxiety diagnoses have increased even in countries where kids have a lot more independence and freedom.  But I don't believe they have increased everywhere to the same degree that they have here, and I think this is a potential reason for that increase.  I'm in no way saying it shouldn't be socially acceptable to get treatment for anxiety and depression, even for young kids.  In absolutely NO WAY am I saying that.  I'm talking about sociological forces here, not anything that should impact any individual child or family.  

[Carrie12345]

I agree that there are cons to not encouraging independence, but it’s far from the whole picture. I’m a GenX eldest daughter. That independence didn’t prevent mental health issues, believe me!  
I’ve raised my kids to be pretty darn independent. That didn’t override genetics, society, or individual emotional makeup. I’m sure it has *helped*, so yay, but heritability is strong and life is hard these days. 

[mommyoffive]

I grew up roaming the neighborhood with friends and a sibling.  Latchkey kid.  Baby sitting at a very young age. 

The kids in our neighborhood wander in packs.  I am sure my kids would be doing some of that but we are never home after school or summertime do to ballet.  But I let my kids wander the neighborhood or city if they feel like they want to.  I let them do lots of things early because I am not going to kill myself trying to do everything for them.  So yeah they use sharp knives at like 8 or 9, pretty sure my 7 year old did.   I know they are lighting campfires at like 9 or 10.  My teens go off to ballet intensives across the country in the summer.  Lots of other examples. I think the younger kids in the family get to do things earlier. Kids in our neighborhood also have jobs young going house to house with whatever their new job idea is.  And neighbors generally know each other especially the houses where the kids are friends.  But we have several neighbors that brought us presents today and us to them, and we do favors for each other.  

[Frances]

42 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 I’m not sure kids are anxious because they were actively parented and not free ranged. 
 

Are people even reading the article? It’s not contrasting active parenting with free range parenting. Parents can be actively involved in their children’s lives without being hyper vigilant and micromanaging. They can be actively parenting and still allow plenty of opportunities for risk taking, mistakes, failures, independence, etc.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I agree that there are cons to not encouraging independence, but it’s far from the whole picture. I’m a GenX eldest daughter. That independence didn’t prevent mental health issues, believe me!  
I’ve raised my kids to be pretty darn independent. That didn’t override genetics, society, or individual emotional makeup. I’m sure it has *helped*, so yay, but heritability is strong and life is hard these days. 

I don’t think any one thing is ever the whole picture or sole reason.

[Terabith]

From my observations, I think kids who grow up in large cities with robust public transit have more freedom of movement and opportunity for independence than in places that don't have public transit.  

[mommyoffive]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

From my observations, I think kids who grow up in large cities with robust public transit have more freedom of movement and opportunity for independence than in places that don't have public transit.  

I would agree.  We have no public transit here.

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, Frances said:

I think we are saying the same thing. The ability to easily communicate with others is the one overall positive aspect of technology and the internet age. Of course it’s not a substitute for in person community.

At least where I live, volunteering is a place to get free community across ages and many of the arts organizations offer free or reduced price access to space, materials, and community. Also, we have lots of wonderful parks that are great gathering places for people of all ages. When we were at one near downtown and the river this summer, I turned to my husband and said, “It’s become like a big backyard for the city.” They keep adding new features and more and more people are gathering there. That night there were bike riders and walker, exercise classes, young adults playing volleyball, people taking prom pictures, families and couples picnicking, lots of dog walkers and runners, people setting up for an outdoor movie night, lots of music playing, carousel rides, boat rides, etc. Those at the park represented a very diverse cross section of our community.

We have lots of places like you listed.  And yes, I see a lot of different people using parks, rec centers, arts places, etc Re being used,  

[chiguirre]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:39 PM, Frances said:

TMI

As neither my parents, my husband’s parents, nor my sister did this, I will say I struggle to understand the intense involvement of many parents nowadays in their children’s schoolwork and grades. I am not talking about kids with ADHD or otherwise neurodiverse or those with learning problems like dyslexia. But your average parent of your average child who is regularly checking online grade and hw portals, talking about their kid’s grades, reminding children of assignments and exams, etc. How will the child ever take ownership of school if the parent is more invested than they are? Absolutely I think the parent should be helping with hw when the child asks, modeling good organization and study skills, attending events, showing interest, etc. I’m not suggesting not being an involved, connected parent. But what I’m talking about goes way beyond this. The one semester my son was in middle school I never even made an account for the online grading system. He knew school was his responsibility and we were there for help or assistance with anything he needed. We did talk to him and show him organization/reminder systems that worked for our jobs/lives, but ultimately let him choose what worked best for him. In my generation, school was seen as the child’s job and responsibility. So many parents I see now are micromanaging their child’s  lives to a degree that there is little chance for taking responsibility, maturity, and independence.

At my nephew's school they require parents to SIGN the weekly homework. They lose points if it's not signed. Even if you want to try to encourage independence, it's impossible.

Since we're afterschooling, I'm the one who checks the homework and signs. The instructions are written to the parents, not the kids. This would be okay if it were K, but it's third grade. DN can read the instructions on his own, but he realizes they're not written for him. I do try to assign him chunks and then correct them with him if he makes any mistake or doesn't follow the Circle/Underline/Box key words stuff This is a whole other issue, they spend more time marking up a problem than they do solving it. The actual arithmetic involved is ridiculously easy because they place so much emphasis on the analysis of the question. It's math taught as a reading exercise.

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

From my observations, I think kids who grow up in large cities with robust public transit have more freedom of movement and opportunity for independence than in places that don't have public transit.  

My daughter lives in a regional city. She wouldn't be allowed as much freedom if she lived in the capital. She's allowed to catch the intercity trains at night, but not the metro trains, and she's allowed to catch taxis in the regional city but wouldn't be allowed in the capital. It's definitely been good for her.

[KungFuPanda]

10 hours ago, Frances said:

Are people even reading the article? It’s not contrasting active parenting with free range parenting. Parents can be actively involved in their children’s lives without being hyper vigilant and micromanaging. They can be actively parenting and still allow plenty of opportunities for risk taking, mistakes, failures, independence, etc.

I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild. I’m wondering where you would even find a significant cluster of these parents to study. Involved and invested parents seem to be the norm near me but who has the energy or time to really micromanage your child’s life to the degree you’re describing unless they have extreme and likely heritable anxiety themselves?

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild. I’m wondering where you would even find a significant cluster of these parents to study. Involved and invested parents seem to be the norm near me but who has the energy or time to really micromanage your child’s life to the degree you’re describing unless they have extreme and likely heritable anxiety themselves?

The article compared societies in different countries and throughout different times.  It specifically spoke to the fact that both England and the US have a lot fewer children getting to school by themselves, while in Finland, where children start school at 7, they have children going to school and being independent generally at a much younger age.  It also looked at indigenous communities that have youngsters helping around the house and being able to explore and use knives at earlier ages.  It also examined the differences between high school students with part-time jobs and those without. 

I know that in our family, my son had a few summertime jobs from age 14, so in the early 00s.  I think the next one did babysitting from age 16, which was in the late 00s.  My youngest had no paid jobs at all, but that was partially due to her health, her extracurriculars, and changes in society. I remember that people were shocked at the fact that she liked to study at the main library here, where there are homeless people- she said that she had no issues with them.  A lot of them read or slept. Just several people were surprised that dd2 decided to go to college in Memphis because how could I let my 18 yo go there since it is so dangerous?

Also in the article was what level of mental illness- suicide rates have been skyrocketing among young people, and it talks about all these trends from the 1960s onwards.  This means that just about all of us here on this forum have experienced some of the societal changes toward less independence, even in our childhoods.   A lot of mental health research has found that people who have interesting and productive lives are much less likely to be addicts (a study of heroin addiction in soldiers returning from Vietnam). The article also mentioned that a study of what kids define as playtime depended on whether or not adults were present.  If the adults were present, it wasn't considered play, and I believe these were preschoolers to early elementary-aged kids.