No student loan forgiveness

[DawnM]

The supreme court has ruled that there will be no student loan forgiveness under the plan Biden proposed.

I know we have discussed this before.

I had two kids who are affected, although we didn't count on it, and I am not sure I even support it, but we are indeed affected.

What reforms need to happen with student loans?   No compounding interest?   Lower interest rates?   What will actually help?

I am not big on paying off everyone's college after the fact, but I do support offering FREE community college (not just for dual enrollment) and some plans to have lower cost college options.

And, of course, no political party discussion.....hopefully we can do that.

 

[mommyoffive]

5 minutes ago, DawnM said:

The supreme court has ruled that there will be no student loan forgiveness under the plan Biden proposed.

I know we have discussed this before.

I had two kids who are affected, although we didn't count on it, and I am not sure I even support it, but we are indeed affected.

What reforms need to happen with student loans?   No compounding interest?   Lower interest rates?   What will actually help?

I am not big on paying off everyone's college after the fact, but I do support offering FREE community college (not just for dual enrollment) and some plans to have lower cost college options.

And, of course, no political party discussion.....hopefully we can do that.

 

Agree with you on that.  I am not on board with paying off college after the fact for people, because in the end that doesn't do anything to change the problem.  I do support all of your ideas.

[Pawz4me]

Biden announced this afternoon that there's some workaround or other approach his administration is going to try, but I don't know any specifics.

I too am conflicted on forgiveness, although I think I'd support forgiveness of interest (not sure how that would work WRT interest already paid). I also think going forward we should offer interest free loans. There would have to be some limits, I'm sure, but overall I think interest free college loans would be a good investment in the future.

[Faith-manor]

I think that if Marjorie Taylor Greene and many other business owners got their PPP loans forgiven to the tune of 757 billion, then it is disgusting that it is somehow wrong to forgive some young folks caught up in the insanity of college tuition outpacing wages by 400%+ so that they can begin eating something besides ramen noodles, and begin participating in the economy, then our country is just nothing but a dumpster fire. Of course, that isn't the only SCOTUS move that makes me think we should have the big national fire sale and let some other countries buy the pieces parts, and see if they can do better.

The entire banking industry during the Great Recession got bailed out for their own damn predatory, stupid, loan practices that they know full well was going to come back to bite them in the butt leaving the tax payers dealing with the consequences. 700 billion dollars into the direct hands of depraved economic monsters. But a young adult trying to get their head above water doesn't get jack.

That is how I feel.

What I want to know is once the Silent Generation and Boomers are dead, who the hell do the oligarchs plan on selling their crap to in order to keep getting rich?

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

What I want to know is once the Silent Generation and Boomers are dead, who the hell do the oligarchs plan on selling their crap to in order to keep getting rich?

That’s why they’re buying up houses left and right

[Janeway]

The interest rates are way too high on need based loans. My student loans were all need based and were between 8.5% to 12% interest. At one point, they were more than tripled before I paid them off. 

 

Maybe a better thing, rather than just cancel the loans, maybe start cancelled the accrued interest, especially on older loans. I am referencing the need based loans in all this. I do not know enough about other types of loans. But I think it is horrible that in a time when high schools are all aimed at college prep and so many people would be happy and willing to work in careers that need training, that so many cannot even afford community college let alone anything beyond that. It is a huge huge class division in this country.

[marbel]

I also have mixed feelings about it. My kids would benefit from forgiveness. I do believe in people paying their debts. They/we willingly took on (minimal) federal loans, and we should pay them back. On the other hand... I have seen so many bailouts for people/organizations much less deserving than college students, in particular students whose education was disrupted by Covid (again, my kids). So many lost opportunities, and I don't just mean the luxury of study abroad. But a proper education*, internships, all wiped out. So it's hard not to be cynical when this is refused, but so many businesses have been given the gift of forgiveness/bailout. 

Yeah, I'm trying not to be bitter, but I admit I am, a little bit. 

[Eos]

Not bitter, but also noticing the difference between the PPP forgiveness and this. If we were a whole society, intent on creating an educated citizenry, we'd have better options than the current loan madness and this politically fraught solution.  My Pell students are sad but they knew what they signed up for.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Eos

[teachermom2834]

Two of my kids would have benefited but I wasn’t in favor of it philosophically. So I wouldn’t have been sad if it went through but I can’t be upset it didn’t because it just doesn’t feel like the right way. Both older boys have just the federal loans and would have had them about halved with the $10,000 forgiveness. It would have helped but they knew what they were doing when they took them. They could have gone to cc or somewhere cheaper but made the informed decision to take it on. Why should their peers who didn’t go away and live on campus or take advantage of the margin to work an unpaid internship have to pick up their slack? Seem so wrong. 

My 3rd ds is on a full ride and works and saves his money. But he still had access to the federal loans for his “personal expenses” part of the cost of attendance. He could have taken them and bought a car or invested them and then had them forgiven if this went through. That feels bad. He hasn’t taken any loan money and I don’t think he should have to pick up any slack even for his brothers who did. 
 

Something does need to be done. But this wasn’t it. And it would have just let the colleges completely off the hook to reform their practices and costs. And the people who are really suffering need more than $10,000 relief. I don’t know. It’s just a clunky proposal with a huge price tag that didn’t address any of the root causes. 
 

I think something done with the interest for sure is a good start. And alot of the student loan horror stories are private loans which is a completely different issue. 
 

There has been restructuring on the income contingent payment plans that has been hugely consequential and hasn’t been challenged legally and alot of people are seeing some major relief there. New payment plans are coming that are going to make payments much lower for low income borrowers. Of course none of that helps private borrowers. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

$20,000 would barely make a dent in my federal student loans.  What would help is restructuring the interest. Or eliminating the interest and just paying back what I took out.

Congress has the authority to provide student loan forgiveness and restructuring, they just don’t have the willpower or interest in doing so.

[Heartstrings]

13 hours ago, Eos said:

Not bitter, but also noticing the difference between the PPP forgiveness and this. If we were a whole society, intent on creating an educated citizenry, we'd have better options than the current loan madness and this politically fraught solution.  My Pell students are sad but they knew what they signed up for.

 

 

Especially when SO MANY of the public figures that were fighting against the student loan forgiveness had millions of dollar in PPP loans forgiven.  They could at least have the decency to be quiet for half a second. There are several Twitter accounts tracking down people who tweet about the importance of paying back student loans and retweeting them with how much their PPP loans were. I guess repaying loans is somehow only important if you aren’t a 1%er.   Funny old world. 
 

The company with the imploded sub last week was given $450 million in PPP, so that was kind of “our” sub they imploded.  
 

CORRECTION:   As Pinball so graciously corrected me, it was $450K in PPP loans.   
 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings
Correct number

[pinball]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Especially when SO MANY of the public figures that were fighting against the student loan forgiveness had millions of dollar in PPP loans forgiven.  They could at least have the decency to be quiet for half a second. There are several Twitter accounts tracking down people who tweet about the importance of paying back student loans and retweeting them with how much their PPP loans were. I guess repaying loans is somehow only important if you aren’t a 1%er.   Funny old world. 
 

The company with the imploded sub last week was given $450 million in PPP, so that was kind of “our” sub they imploded.  
 

 

You have too many zeros in that PPP amount for Oceangate.

they got $450,000…not 450,000,000

[KungFuPanda]

Oh yay, the banks won, but they’ll get a bail out. 

[pinball]

The difference between student loans and PPP is that student loans are taken with the intention they need to be paid back.

PPP was taken knowing that if it was used correctly, it would be forgiven.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

You have too many zeros in that PPP amount for Oceangate.

they got $450,000…not 450,000,000

Yes, my mistake.   

[Heartstrings]

Surely, this is just in bad taste…

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, pinball said:

The difference between student loans and PPP is that student loans are taken with the intention they need to be paid back.

PPP was taken knowing that if it was used correctly, it would be forgiven.

Congress wrote a law to give themselves and their buddies a ton of cash, but called it “loan” so John Q. Citizen wouldn’t notice.  And it worked, surprising no one.  
 

Yeah, I’m just going to be salty about that.  

[elegantlion]

I'm disappointed but not surprised. DS's loans would have been eliminated and mine reduced considerably. 

I agree that something needs to be done about exhobitant interest rates on loans and I would support giving consideration for those who chose not to attend higher ed. I just feel like everytime I try to do something to put me ahead, the powers that be want to keep me in economic straits while providing excuses to bail themselves out. 

[Starr]

At least give credit for the large amounts of interest these kids have already paid. Every loan company convinces the students to combine their loans into one payment at the higher interest level for repayment. Makes me crazy!

[Shelydon]

I definitely think restructuring the interest. I don't think there should be compounded interest at all. Aside from that, I would love to somehow impress upon high schoolers the incredible burden that college debt can be. I currently have two students in college. We saved in such a way that we could pay their tuition. They got enough academic scholarships to pay for their housing. If the scholarships had not happened, then they would have lived at home and either done 2 years at a local community college or online. After that they would have transferred to their four-year university and worked to pay for housing. We have impressed upon them the goal of graduating with a bachelor's debt-free, and taking on as little debt as possible for additional graduate degrees. Since I have two in college, I have met dozens of college students over the last 3 years and the vast majority are taking out huge amounts of student loans. Dorm housing plus 15 semester hours is roughly $12,000 a semester. These kids are graduating almost $100,000 in debt with degrees in psychology and no idea what they want to do or how to even get a job that makes much more than minimum wage. 

I like the idea of very reduced cost community college, something like $100 a class along with really encouraging kids in high school to take advantage of a program like that. 

 

For reference, I finished a bachelor's and  master's degree in the mid '90s with about $20,000 in loans. At that time school was much less expensive, and I was able to work and pay for 100% of my living expenses and only took out loans for tuition. Once I got out of school, I worked two jobs and paid off the loans in a couple of years.  Taking out loans for tuition only at the state 4 year school would be about $50,000 now. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Shelydon

[SKL]

Definitely reform is needed.  Reform would be relief for many.  Predatory loans should be written down at the lender's expense, to the benefit of the borrowers.  For example, the loans could be retroactively re-priced so that exorbitant interest payments would be treated as principal payments, resulting in many debtors having zero or much smaller principal outstanding.  That said, not all student loans are predatory, and contracts that were agreed in good faith should be honored absent extreme circumstances.  (Student loans have outs for extreme circumstances.)

I also feel we need more affordable, but still decent quality, higher education options.  The cost of an education is irrationally priced.  I really thought it would have improved by the time my kids were in college, but apparently not.

That said, I don't agree with the forgiveness plan that was put forward, for a number of reasons.  Besides, that would not fix anything for current and future students.

I do have family members who would benefit from the proposed forgiveness.  They are probably bummed but not surprised.

I graduated in 1992 with $85K in student loans, and my interest rates topped off at 12%, so I understand the pain.  So far I haven't seen the government come up with any real solutions though.

Edited July 1, 2023 by SKL

[catz]

I haven't read all the responses.  But I think we need to work on fixing expected family contributions, truly affordable college paths and less on loans.  We need an educated population.  

[Heartstrings]

It’s not just the federal government that is failing here.  A lot of the tuition crisis can be laid at the feet of states who keep cutting how much they contribute to higher Ed.  Imagine if state funding for college had stayed at the same level as in the 70s.  
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/01/05/students-cover-more-of-their-public-university-tuition-now-than-state-governments/

Researchers found that the money public colleges collect in tuition surpassed the money they receive from state funding in 2012. Tuition accounted for 25 percent of school revenue, up from 17 percent in 2003. State funding, meanwhile, plummeted from 32 percent to 23 percent during the same period. That’s a far cry from the 1970s, when state governments supplied public colleges with nearly 75 percent of their funding, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[BusyMom5]

I was not in support of the program and I did think it was improper use of power.  That said, I do support help for current students (I'll have 2 or 3 in college for the next 6+years) and for Student borrowers to pass through Congress.  Changes I would support:

1.  Free 2-year college or trade school for everyone.  One time thing, you don't get to just keep going back and trying to pass classes- contingent on grades and attendance. You get to attempt 60 credit hours.  My state actually does this for high school graduates (not homeschoolers, sadly).  This would be at state schools only, not private.  There should be a set amount of money states or federal government puts towards these credit hours- think like insurance companies do towards in-network Dr visits.  

2.  Mandatory credit counseling for student borrowers and their families.  Honest information from the school on what each degree is worth in terms of salary 1, 3, 5-years post degree from their graduates. 

3.  Lower interest rates, 1-3%, with a faster pay-off.  All interest starts 6 months post graduation.  No accumulated interest while you are in class!  

4.  Stop allowing students to borrow sooo much over the cost of tuition and dorm/food plan.  Make it normal for kids to work during college to supplement their life. 

5.  Cut out Gen Ed's and Extra classes to fulfill the 120 hours requirement.   We all know some degrees are much easier than others, some classes much more intense than others.  Stop using this artificial number to determine how much school = degree.  Instead focus on when someone is ready to complete the jobs in that field/industry.  

6.  Make the standard 4-year degree optional, so Students can work a little,  particularly in co-ops and internships.  The earlier in their degree, the better!  Spread that time out to 5 or 6 years.  (I know some schools do this already with some degrees).  

7.  Start paying Teachers and social workers more!  These 2 degrees are the ones with the lowest ROI, and the GOV is the one paying their salary.  If someone cannot afford to go to college to get a teaching degree, then degree costs too much or the job pays too little.  Or maybe both!  If we want quality teachers, we need to pay them better.  

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by BusyMom5

[BakersDozen]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I also feel we need more affordable, but still decent quality, higher education options.  The cost of an education is irrationally priced.  I really thought it would have improved by the time my kids were in college, but apparently not.

Watching as my 5 (soon to be 6) older kids graduated high school and pursued higher ed, I feel that there are decent quality options and that there has been enormous improvement not in the cost of 4-year institutions, but definitely in the options students have that were not previously available. I feel that CC is far more promoted and accessible than it was when I was graduating high school. Dual/concurrent enrollment is a huge thing, programs such as the Promise Program at our local CC which reimburses the cost of tuition if a student completes the program successfully (and it is definitely set up so a student can do so!), sites such as Modern States which, while on the light side and not always very interesting/engaging, offer vouchers for CLEP exams, on-line classes galore...there are so many options! Organizations such as NACOG (in AZ) which can help pay for a student's classes - this is how one of mine secured her CNA for not one penny out-of-pocket. It is astonishing to me how many resources are out there, and with the world at our fingertips, help with higher ed costs and options for low to no-cost education are, imo, more accessible than ever before.

I'm not unhappy with today's ruling and wish that society as a whole (including and especially gov't and businesses) would have a mindset of paying debts for which one signs. I also feel there is an alarming mindset in society of wanting something but having others pay, college costs included. Personally, I don't think college, even CC, should be "free" (nothing is actually free). This is a time when people should be learning how to set goals, make a plan, and figure out how to best finance that plan. They need to utilize the many, many options out there, get creative, use CC to the max if it's available, and figure out how to earn something they want either with no debt or by repaying the debt they took on.

All that being said, I do feel that if students participate in a program which promises reduced or forgiven debt in exchange for, say, teaching in certain schools/areas, that promise should be kept. As one who paid off my student loans and who borrowed carefully, and as one who has seen my dc figure out how to really work the system and tackle higher ed without financial help from us and without incurring debt (so far), I believe it can be done.

 

[BakersDozen]

4 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

5.  Cut out Gen Ed's and Extra classes to fulfill the 120 hours requirement.   We all know some degrees are much easier than others, some classes much more intense than others.  Stop using this artificial number to determine how much school = degree.  Instead focus on when someone is ready to complete the jobs in that field/industry. 

I have a hard time with this one, mainly because while I eye-rolled the Gen Ed requirements at the time, I now know that those classes which I was forced to take were actually some of the best classes of my college career. I use what I learned in most of them even today with my own dc. I would never have taken an Art History course, yet I had to fulfill a Gen Ed so that's what I took and I loved it. I've seen my dc take classes to fulfill Gen Ed and it added a lot to their knowledge "bank" and awareness of history, science, etc., and these are kids who have a WTM kind of K-12 education, so they weren't exactly lacking academically going into higher ed. I think the Gen Eds can help immensely not only by introducing students to more or new material and knowledge, but by providing classes which can ease students into the pace and span of college classes. A lot of students have no clue what they want to do/pursue; Gen Eds might be helpful to that end as students work through 2 years or so of higher ed and (hopefully) mature as they are exposed to various subjects.

Or not. 🙂

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, BakersDozen said:

I have a hard time with this one, mainly because while I eye-rolled the Gen Ed requirements at the time, I now know that those classes which I was forced to take were actually some of the best classes of my college career. I use what I learned in most of them even today with my own dc. I would never have taken an Art History course, yet I had to fulfill a Gen Ed so that's what I took and I loved it. I've seen my dc take classes to fulfill Gen Ed and it added a lot to their knowledge "bank" and awareness of history, science, etc., and these are kids who have a WTM kind of K-12 education, so they weren't exactly lacking academically going into higher ed. I think the Gen Eds can help immensely not only by introducing students to more or new material and knowledge, but by providing classes which can ease students into the pace and span of college classes. A lot of students have no clue what they want to do/pursue; Gen Eds might be helpful to that end as students work through 2 years or so of higher ed and (hopefully) mature as they are exposed to various subjects.

Or not. 🙂

But at $5,000 to $40,000 + a year, is it worth 2 years of basics?  if it’s $50 a class, like Elizabeth Warren talks about her classes being, then we’re having a different conversation.  
Using easy numbers, my son had a few acceptances at schools that were $40,000 a year.  $20,000 a semester. If 5 classes is full time, art history at those schools is $4,000.   Is that really worth it? Is it still worth it for that to be the barrier of entry to making a decent living? If it’s worth $4,000 as a college requirement, it could be taken later as an adult, when your earning big boy money. Or studied for $50 with a Great Courses video.

 
Maybe basic classes need a different price.  Or maybe k-12 needs to be completely revamped so that this exploration takes place in high school where it’s free and can benefit more people.  
 

Or maybe college is only for people who can afford several thousand dollars to be enriched and explore, but someone needs to tell employers that so they’ll stop requiring degrees for the receptionist.  
 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Carrie12345]

I’m disappointed with the ruling, but I also know that the forgiveness plan alone wasn’t enough to solve our crisis. And it is a crisis.

Many excellent solutions were proposed above. I just wish our society would focus on the meaning and purpose in order to get solutions moving. If we don’t make changes, we’re doomed.

So many people want to focus on making financially sound school/career choices. And, yeah, there’s a current importance there, and one I stress with my kids. But we have to look further down the road.

We need teachers, veterinarians, social workers, nurses, mechanics, caregivers, historians, journalists, repair techs, and forest rangers.  
We need doctoring and lawyering and poli-sci to be open to more than just the shrinking upper middle class. 
And we need farmers, road pavers, trash collectors, and shelf stockers just for us to function.

Plus many other occupations, of course.  WE need these things. Any 1 individual kid making choices for their future is fairly insignificant. But when a generation has been pushed to gamble and lose and the next has to over correct, we’re left with a house of cards that’s going to fall on all of us.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m disappointed with the ruling, but I also know that the forgiveness plan alone wasn’t enough to solve our crisis. And it is a crisis.

Many excellent solutions were proposed above. I just wish our society would focus on the meaning and purpose in order to get solutions moving. If we don’t make changes, we’re doomed.

So many people want to focus on making financially sound school/career choices. And, yeah, there’s a current importance there, and one I stress with my kids. But we have to look further down the road.

We need teachers, veterinarians, social workers, nurses, mechanics, caregivers, historians, journalists, repair techs, and forest rangers.  
We need doctoring and lawyering and poli-sci to be open to more than just the shrinking upper middle class. 
And we need farmers, road pavers, trash collectors, and shelf stockers just for us to function.

Plus many other occupations, of course.  WE need these things. Any 1 individual kid making choices for their future is fairly insignificant. But when a generation has been pushed to gamble and lose and the next has to over correct, we’re left with a house of cards that’s going to fall on all of us.

Agreed. But to be honest, our government is run by corporations. We may as well change the name to, "The United Corporations of America" and at least be honest about it. The wealthy run the nation for their own ends. All the things they need they will get from us, the peasants, by force of power and without compensation or little compensation eventually. There is no motivation for the powers that be to change anything. The current failed state works epically well for their own ends.

What absolutely astounds me is how much the voters constantly side with their own dollars being used to bailout our overlords while hating each other and their own kids so much, they are against even the most simple, common sense measures that could help their own children and grandchildren. It is like they enjoy being beaten down by their oppressors. The mentality is just so disturbing to me.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Frankly, I think it was just a political stunt.  I have read through the SAVE IDR plan that was announced yesterday and it will benefit me personally far more than $20,000 of loan forgiveness will.  It does restructure interest in some ways. And it appears far more legally sound. 
 

[pinball]

11 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Yes, my mistake.   

So if it was a “mistake” then edit it and fix it.

or people might believe it was “deliberate”

[Heartstrings]

20 minutes ago, pinball said:

So if it was a “mistake” then edit it and fix it.

or people might believe it was “deliberate”

If you do insist.   I had thought your correcting me in the literal next post down was enough.  I was literally going to “stand corrected”, but as you wish.  
 

Anything further? 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Agreed. But to be honest, our government is run by corporations. We may as well change the name to, "The United Corporations of America" and at least be honest about it. The wealthy run the nation for their own ends. All the things they need they will get from us, the peasants, by force of power and without compensation or little compensation eventually. There is no motivation for the powers that be to change anything. The current failed state works epically well for their own ends.

What absolutely astounds me is how much the voters constantly side with their own dollars being used to bailout our overlords while hating each other and their own kids so much, they are against even the most simple, common sense measures that could help their own children and grandchildren. It is like they enjoy being beaten down by their oppressors. The mentality is just so disturbing to me.

And, I firmly believe we are headed into a corporate model public education system, run as a business and not what we have known as public education.   It is a perfect storm.   Government won't pay, teachers are at a critical crisis and it is only the tip of the iceberg at the moment, parents are disgruntled, student test scores are down, and when our society gets to that level, they typically do a giant pendulum swing (because our nation doesn't do anything half *ss, it is all one way or the other).

People at my school have been discussing this and we are worried.   

I should only have 7-8 years until retirement.   I can't imagine going into education right now.  They have taken away health care in the pension plan.   If you start after 2021, you get nothing.   It just keeps dropping.....so salary increase, health care isn't as good as it was, and the list goes on.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

If you do insist.   I had thought your correcting me in the literal next post down was enough.  I was literally going to “stand corrected”, but as you wish.  
 

Anything further? 

No, that’s all for now.

But lose the attitude or I’ll have to make a note in your permanent record.

[BusyMom5]

7 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

I have a hard time with this one, mainly because while I eye-rolled the Gen Ed requirements at the time, I now know that those classes which I was forced to take were actually some of the best classes of my college career. I use what I learned in most of them even today with my own dc. I would never have taken an Art History course, yet I had to fulfill a Gen Ed so that's what I took and I loved it. I've seen my dc take classes to fulfill Gen Ed and it added a lot to their knowledge "bank" and awareness of history, science, etc., and these are kids who have a WTM kind of K-12 education, so they weren't exactly lacking academically going into higher ed. I think the Gen Eds can help immensely not only by introducing students to more or new material and knowledge, but by providing classes which can ease students into the pace and span of college classes. A lot of students have no clue what they want to do/pursue; Gen Eds might be helpful to that end as students work through 2 years or so of higher ed and (hopefully) mature as they are exposed to various subjects.

Or not. 🙂

I will agree that those types of classes open minds and doors, but they cost WAY too much.  My oldest chose her school in part bc the scholarship included as many classes as she wants each semester- she has taken Philosophy courses, Russian literature,  she's taking Southern Women Writers class this summer.  These are all near classes that she's enjoyed, and they may even make her a better adult, but if I had to pay for them that would be the equivalent of buying a car.  Her degree is Management Information Systems.  She will always be a learner, which I love ❤️  but these classes aren't going to make her better-trained for her job.  Many kids at her school are paying $40K+ a year, making these classes very expensive. 

My kids have taken other Gen Ed's at CC for less than $500 per class.  This amount is much more palatable for me, especially if kid is exploring options.  Do we really want to spend $40k trying out different courses the first year or two?  Is this what should be normal?  Or required? 

I do agree with basic Math and English writing courses, since those skills are used in every other class, and probably Public Speaking as well.  The others tend to be a rehash of high school classes.  I think Psychology is also a good course to just help you understand yourself and others.  But let's keep those minimal, and maybe have them cost less?  

[SKL]

7 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

Watching as my 5 (soon to be 6) older kids graduated high school and pursued higher ed, I feel that there are decent quality options and that there has been enormous improvement not in the cost of 4-year institutions, but definitely in the options students have that were not previously available. I feel that CC is far more promoted and accessible than it was when I was graduating high school. Dual/concurrent enrollment is a huge thing, programs such as the Promise Program at our local CC which reimburses the cost of tuition if a student completes the program successfully (and it is definitely set up so a student can do so!), sites such as Modern States which, while on the light side and not always very interesting/engaging, offer vouchers for CLEP exams, on-line classes galore...there are so many options! Organizations such as NACOG (in AZ) which can help pay for a student's classes - this is how one of mine secured her CNA for not one penny out-of-pocket. It is astonishing to me how many resources are out there, and with the world at our fingertips, help with higher ed costs and options for low to no-cost education are, imo, more accessible than ever before.

I'm not unhappy with today's ruling and wish that society as a whole (including and especially gov't and businesses) would have a mindset of paying debts for which one signs. I also feel there is an alarming mindset in society of wanting something but having others pay, college costs included. Personally, I don't think college, even CC, should be "free" (nothing is actually free). This is a time when people should be learning how to set goals, make a plan, and figure out how to best finance that plan. They need to utilize the many, many options out there, get creative, use CC to the max if it's available, and figure out how to earn something they want either with no debt or by repaying the debt they took on.

All that being said, I do feel that if students participate in a program which promises reduced or forgiven debt in exchange for, say, teaching in certain schools/areas, that promise should be kept. As one who paid off my student loans and who borrowed carefully, and as one who has seen my dc figure out how to really work the system and tackle higher ed without financial help from us and without incurring debt (so far), I believe it can be done.

I've said similar in the past, but a lot of those options only apply to kids blessed with high IQs and good executive function skills.  Things that I've learned require more than good choices and intentions.  Also, CC is not a good start for every career path.  For more challenging courses of study, universities may not accept CC transfer credits.

Our state, unfortunately, does not have a free post-high-school education option.  I do agree that those programs that provide fair access to higher education (vs. subsidizing kids who are already advantaged) sound great.  How to get more states to offer this ....

I'm not looking to transfer society's wealth in favor of my kids, but is the value of a decent (not foo foo) education for one human really equal to an average full-time salary?  No, it is not.  The pricing structure in general is flawed.

Edited July 1, 2023 by SKL

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

state, unfortunately, does not have a free post-high-school education option.  I do agree that those programs that provide fair access to higher education (vs. subsidizing kids who are already advantaged) sound great.  How to get more states to offer this ...

My state doesn’t even offer free community college to high schoolers.  I’d love to see that. 

[Grace Hopper]

Some of my kids would have benefited from forgiveness, others not. I have no strong feelings either way. I’m glad the issue is settled, because I feel now there can be other methods investigated for helping reduced student debt. 
 

An example, the degree to which students can qualify for govt loans (our max has always been $5500 annually) and the rate at which they are subsidized (we’ve had instances where all, half, and none of the $5500 is substandard the rest unsubsidized) could both be increased. A lot of student debt is due to higher interest private loans. 
 

The FAFSA should be examined and reformulated because everyone knows the EFC numbers are ridiculously high. 
 

I’d like to see college costs in general lowered. But that has a lot to do with technology costs and student desires for fanciful extras like posh dining options, deluxe dorms and spectacular rec centers. Lots to debate there. 

[Grace Hopper]

One really strong feeling I have in reaction to this decision is not actually related to student loan forgiveness. I think it’s time for a thorough audit of all the PPP loans that were forgiven. But I realize a further discussion of that belongs on the politics board so that’s all I’ll say here about it. 

[maize]

Just now, Grace Hopper said:

One really strong feeling I have in reaction to this decision is not actually related to student loan forgiveness. I think it’s time for a thorough audit of all the PPP loans that were forgiven. But I realize a further discussion of that belongs on the politics board so that’s all I’ll say here about it. 

I've heard about a number of court cases for ppp loan fraud so it does sound like some who abused the program are facing consequences.

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

n example, the degree to which students can qualify for govt loans (our max has always been $5500 annually) and the rate at which they are subsidized (we’ve had instances where all, half, and none of the $5500 is substandard the rest unsubsidized) could both be increased. A lot of student debt is due to higher interest private loans. 

I think that’s a great point.  The $5500 was $5500 when I was in school 20 years ago.  It hasn’t risen despite tuition skyrocketing.    My son goes to a very low cost university and $5500 won’t cover tuition.   Luckily he’s living  at home and working to cover the difference.   

[SKL]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I think that’s a great point.  The $5500 was $5500 when I was in school 20 years ago.  It hasn’t risen despite tuition skyrocketing.    My son goes to a very low cost university and $5500 won’t cover tuition.   Luckily he’s living  at home and working to cover the difference.   

But do we really want students to graduate with more debt?

[Grace Hopper]

Just now, SKL said:

But do we really want students to graduate with more debt?

It wouldn’t change the total debt. It would allow for more of the debt to be financed at lower interest rates. 

[Janeway]

It angers me to see huge profit corporations, like GMC, get bailouts while non-wealthy people struggle to be a part of society. Things need to change.

[Shelydon]

42 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I will agree that those types of classes open minds and doors, but they cost WAY too much.  My oldest chose her school in part bc the scholarship included as many classes as she wants each semester- she has taken Philosophy courses, Russian literature,  she's taking Southern Women Writers class this summer.  These are all near classes that she's enjoyed, and they may even make her a better adult, but if I had to pay for them that would be the equivalent of buying a car.  Her degree is Management Information Systems.  She will always be a learner, which I love ❤️  but these classes aren't going to make her better-trained for her job.  Many kids at her school are paying $40K+ a year, making these classes very expensive. 

My kids have taken other Gen Ed's at CC for less than $500 per class.  This amount is much more palatable for me, especially if kid is exploring options.  Do we really want to spend $40k trying out different courses the first year or two?  Is this what should be normal?  Or required? 

I do agree with basic Math and English writing courses, since those skills are used in every other class, and probably Public Speaking as well.  The others tend to be a rehash of high school classes.  I think Psychology is also a good course to just help you understand yourself and others.  But let's keep those minimal, and maybe have them cost less?  

My college students have found that their two English courses have been extremely poor quality. Last year, my second child had an English class that was supposed to be rhetoric and composition. She watched three movies and wrote one expository paper. That's it. There was no actual instruction on different styles of writing. We have consistently found that the classes my kids take it home or through our local homeschool group are far superior to anything they get in with the college basics. It's really appalling to pay $1,000 for a class when it's trash. 

With this in mind my next kids will do CLEP in addition to dual credit.  

[Farrar]

I honestly think the decision makes zero sense and was major SCOTUS overreach. And I won't say that about most of the other decisions I've disagreed with (like, you won't catch me saying that about Dobbs, for example, or the Harvard and UNC cases, though I find those decisions more morally repugnant than this one). Like it or not, this seems to me to be well within the government's purview. 

If the government can't forgive these very specific loans, I want the banks and the automakers who had forgiven loans to pay them back now. I want every small business who took PPP loans to return them stat. If the government can't offer loan forgiveness to loans they set up, then they can't. If they can, then they can. Make up your mind.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Farrar

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

It wouldn’t change the total debt. It would allow for more of the debt to be financed at lower interest rates. 

My concern is that schools increase their tuition rates etc. as subsidies increase.  I am not in favor of subsidizing further irrational cost increases.

[BusyMom5]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think that’s a great point.  The $5500 was $5500 when I was in school 20 years ago.  It hasn’t risen despite tuition skyrocketing.    My son goes to a very low cost university and $5500 won’t cover tuition.   Luckily he’s living  at home and working to cover the difference.   

I agree!  I also do not like the way Parent Plus loans are set up.  It's ironic!  Students can only borrow $5500 for the first year.  Parents have to borrow the rest.... but parents cannot see students grades or speak to the school about anything bc those students are legally adults.  Kids whose parents have poor credit are paying 10+%  interest on loans that they won't even start paying on for 4 years- more if grad school.  I don't think parents or students really understand compounding interest and how much that's going to be at graduation!  

All the talk about student loans also offers an excuse for not paying too much attention to the details.  EVERYONE has student loans.  They are normalized, but no one talks to kids about ways to minimalize the borrowing. 

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

It wouldn’t change the total debt. It would allow for more of the debt to be financed at lower interest rates. 

One of the problems I see is the way this debt is treated differently than other debt though. The lower rates are good, but the rules about the loans aren't.

But yes, if a family is going to take out PLUS loans anyway (which, oy, don't take out PLUS loans, people) then bringing the numbers up would help. It's just that then colleges are likely to raise their numbers to deal with it, which doesn't help either. I am not sold that this is such a good idea.

[Grace Hopper]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

One of the problems I see is the way this debt is treated differently than other debt though. The lower rates are good, but the rules about the loans aren't.

But yes, if a family is going to take out PLUS loans anyway (which, oy, don't take out PLUS loans, people) then bringing the numbers up would help. It's just that then colleges are likely to raise their numbers to deal with it, which doesn't help either. I am not sold that this is such a good idea.

Fair point!