Do you worry about climate change?

[SKL]

15 hours ago, KSera said:

I feel the same. Though I live in an area that has been notably impacted by climate change over the past decade, with increasingly severe weather disasters we didn't used to have here, I'm still not worried per se for myself, but I'm worried about the future becoming miserable for my children as this gets worse and worse. I'm frustrated at the lack of urgency from so many, and that people seem to just throw up their hands and say it's too late and nothing to be done (or outright deny it's happening and/or that we could do anything to slow it, though it's clear we could if there were enough collective will). I guess that's what's the worst about it for me--that a collective will to make it not so awful for our kids and future generations just isn't there, and that I know it doesn't have to go as badly as it looks like it's going to, but people aren't willing to do the things that would mitigate it. I guess that allows them not to worry. They enjoy living the life they have now, and don't worry about what it means for people in the future.

1) Not worrying doesn't equal being a reckless, careless, polluting, disgusting human being.  Some of us have a pretty low carbon footprint by 1st world standards.

2) Our kids ... my kids are 10x "woker" than I've ever been, and old enough to understand things.  But when I tell them they ought to do xyz for the environment they claim to care about, when it's about them actually taking action vs. whining and blaming their relatively low-carbon-footprint grandparents, they won't do it.  So if you're talking about anyone over 12, unless they're consuming/polluting less than you did at their age, I don't wanna hear the whine.

3) Gloom and doom has always been a lie, and I don't see any reason to think that has changed.

4) Climate change will help some people, which never gets any consideration.

Edited April 25, 2023 by SKL

[SKL]

14 hours ago, kokotg said:

It's heartbreaking how much my kids take it for granted that the world as we know it will be gone within their lifetimes.

Maybe the constant message of "your world is screwed" is actually a deterrent to taking action that might help.  I mean if you were told "the planet will definitely blow up 6 hours from now" what would you do?

[SKL]

The whole "blame the grandparents" sounds so ridiculous to me.  The generation that re-made clothes into quilts, sheets into curtains, that almost never went out to eat or bought fast food, for whom vacation meant primitive tent camping, whose hobby was fishing and they ate the fish, who walked to school and took buses to work, who had 2+ people per bedroom ... who are still wearing the clothes they bought for work 30+ years ago ... effing please.

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I haven't given up hope on a technology breakthrough that might spare us the worst. Even if we do come up with something though, we humans, let alone animals, will still suffer a lot before any relief happens. 

 

I do think there's a lot of fascinating work being done on this type of stuff (carbon recapture, et. al.) I don't know...the way climate change happens seems so straightforward and easy to understand (too much carbon!) that I feel like there must be a workable solution. And I think humans are capable of doing big, great things. If we want to. It sounds so absurd when people talk about stuff like carbon recapture being "too expensive." Like....money is a made up thing! We're all going to feel very silly that we couldn't fix the world because it cost too much money when, like, water and rice are the only currencies that count. 

[SKL]

And yes, techology.  People drink ocean water for pete's sake.

[kokotg]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe the constant message of "your world is screwed" is actually a deterrent to taking action that might help.  I mean if you were told "the planet will definitely blow up 6 hours from now" what would you do?

you said your kids won't do small things that you feel are helpful for the environment. I didn't say that about my kids. But I do think that, like lots of us in this thread are saying, my kids understand that the time when small, individual actions could make a difference is in the past. We need big, systemic changes. I feel kind of hopeless sometimes in the face of that. My kids are building lives for themselves, making art, learning, and, yeah, doing what they can to be responsible humans in the face of a very uncertain future. I find them incredibly brave.

Edited April 25, 2023 by kokotg

[SKL]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

you said your kids won't do small things that you feel are helpful for the environment. I didn't say that about my kids. But I do think that, like lots of us in this thread are saying, my kids understand that the time when small, individual actions is in the past. We need big, systemic changes. I feel kind of hopeless sometimes in the face of that. My kids are building lives for themselves, making art, learning, and, yeah, doing what they can to be responsible humans in the face of a very uncertain future. I find them incredibly brave.

If all (or even half) today's kids would make those small changes, that would be a big deal.  So I think it's a bad idea to spread messages that negate that.

 

[SKL]

Just now, SKL said:

If all (or even half) today's kids would make those small changes, that would be a big deal.  So I think it's a bad idea to spread messages that negate that.

Quoting myself to add that IMO we've seen a lot of things kids have managed to change in recent years.  For example, the much greater acceptance of human diversity in their world.  Kids do have power.

[Pam in CT]

re what does "worry" mean

7 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. When we bought this house, resilience, including elevation and distance from water courses and cliffs prone to erosion were key.

Yeah, absolutely.  We live <20 miles from the coast, and now that the kids have mostly-flown and we don't need a honking big house and yard, we're trying to figure the downsized next step. And my husband and I both love the ocean, boats, coastal restaurant views, etc.  But there's no dang WAY we'd consider purchasing ANY real estate, coastal or no, without real consideration of elevation and water and erosion.

And I am conscious, also, of climate change "winners."  Canada's arable land will vastly increase; Russia will get a northern water passage, Nepal's mountains will be vastly easier to scale with a much longer season, and etc.  In my own little pocket of the world, I can already overwinter rosemary, which I certainly could not do as recently as 20 years ago.

 

But global population is clustered in the HOT spots, not in Siberia. And contracting resources, previously arable land rendered unfit for habitation, and not-unrelated civil strife has ALREADY created a climate refugee crisis. That the US is on the receiving end of that crisis, and that like Canada we have a great deal of very sparsely populated land that stands to benefit from climate change in our northwest regions, does not change the reality that the US (not just the coastal flatlands in FL and GA) will very definitely be very affected.

[Pawz4me]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

The whole "blame the grandparents" sounds so ridiculous to me.  The generation that re-made clothes into quilts, sheets into curtains, that almost never went out to eat or bought fast food, for whom vacation meant primitive tent camping, whose hobby was fishing and they ate the fish, who walked to school and took buses to work, who had 2+ people per bedroom ... who are still wearing the clothes they bought for work 30+ years ago ... effing please.

Yeah. And while some people say that individuals can't really do anything, only the government or big corporations can (which I don't totally disagree with) they simultaneously blame older people for not having done something. Not older politicians or big business leaders specifically, but ALL Boomers (and sometimes Gen X'ers or whatever other silly "generation" is after the Boomers). Like I can't do anything, I'm just one person. But Grandma and Grandpa could have. It's nonsensical, but I guess some people feel better with having a scapegoat.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yeah. And while some people say that individuals can't really do anything, only the government or big corporations can (which I don't totally disagree with) they simultaneously blame older people for not having done something. Not older politicians or big business leaders specifically, but ALL Boomers (and sometimes Gen X'ers or whatever other silly "generation" is after the Boomers). Like I can't do anything, I'm just one person. But Grandma and Grandpa could have. It's nonsensical, but I guess some people feel better with having a scapegoat.

Besides which the scientists were still predicting an ice age when I was a kid.  Who exactly was supposed to know that global warming was gonna be a concern for the grandkids?

[Pawz4me]

It baffles me that people are still flocking to places like south Florida and the OBX of NC. Just last month another house on the OBX got swept into the Atlantic. Three or four went last year. And yet people continue to buy and build there, and the local governments continue to allow it. I don't know on the personal level if it's wishful thinking (it won't happen to me), or willful ignorance, or if it's people with more money than sense. 

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Besides which the scientists were still predicting an ice age when I was a kid.  Who exactly was supposed to know that global warming was gonna be a concern for the grandkids?

I'm fascinated by this turning point: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38070412 

Quote

Moynihan wrote in a September 1969 memo that it was "pretty clearly agreed" that carbon dioxide content would rise 25 percent by 2000,

"This could increase the average temperature near the earth's surface by 7 degrees Fahrenheit," he wrote. "This in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter." 

"I would think this is a subject that the Administration ought to get involved with," Moynihan wrote to John Ehrlichman, who in 1975 was convicted of conspiracy, perjury and obstruction for his role in the Watergate break-in and cover-up.

Imagine if people had jumped on this back in the day and kept it from becoming a weirdly politically polarizing issue! But it was always the people with the money and power who really could have done something. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

I'm not worried.  I take it into consideration.  I'm aware of the need to possibly move north some day.  I live on the southern coast of Texas.  We are 9 feet above sea level.  We live in an apartment, so moving would be easier than if we had to worry about selling a house.  

I see climate change in our weather all the time, but so far it's been kind of fun, which is an odd thing to say.  We are a location of hundred year snow, but we got snow twice in twelve years lately.  And while our summers are horribly hot, we have had the nicest fall, winter, and spring this year.  It feels like old times.

I know that the hurricanes, which are our big problem, are more intense now, but for some reason, we rarely get a direct hit where I live.  And we see them coming, so can evacuate.  

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'm fascinated by this turning point: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38070412 

Imagine if people had jumped on this back in the day and kept it from becoming a weirdly politically polarizing issue! But it was always the people with the money and power who really could have done something. 

They predicted an increase of 7 degrees F between 1969 and 2000?  What was the actual increase?

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

They predicted an increase of 7 degrees F between 1969 and 2000?  What was the actual increase?

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-temperature#:~:text=January 18%2C 2023-,Highlights,0.18° C) per decade.

not that much. But the increase is accelerating. 

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-temperature#:~:text=January 18%2C 2023-,Highlights,0.18° C) per decade.

not that much. But the increase is accelerating. 

Here's the chart about carbon dioxide: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide 

If I'm looking at it right, carbon dioxide took longer to hit the 25% increase predicted (but it's there now) and the resulting temperature increase was not as dramatic. But both are still continuing to rise dramatically as predicted and accelerating over time.

[Elizabeth86]

Not even a little.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

4) Climate change will help some people, which never gets any consideration.

Just on this point: back when we used to talk about 'global warming', people in the UK used to think, selfishly, that that sounded okay.  Climate change is not linear, however, and it is already causing great weather turbulence, even in places that could be a few degrees warmer without damage: floods, droughts, erosion, etc.

I studied an undergraduate module on medieval history in the British Isles this semester, and the early 14th century, a period of natural climate change, led to fifty years of drought, floods, famine, an increase in endemic disease and finally the Black Death.

[prairiewindmomma]

I know a lot of us think of the 80s as like....just a few years ago.  (It was sadly 40 years ago.)  Shell, Exxon, and most of the other big petro conglomerates were already running their own internal climate impact studies.  Some of these papers have been leaked over the years. Here's a link to Shell's. https://www.climatefiles.com/shell/1988-shell-report-greenhouse/  It's actually shockingly accurate to how things have played out so far. 

I'm not team lay everything at the Boomer's feet.  Goodness knows that a lot of the hippie movement was about green revolution, saving species, etc. And, it was out of the Silent Generation that the roots of soil conservation began after all of the top soil loss during the Great Depression. 

But I can't agree that "we just didn't know" either. 

How much hotter is it than when you were born? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/07/global-heat-maps-temperature-anomaly-climate-change/

[Bootsie]

I don't "worry" about climate change, but I do try to make a conscious effort to be a good steward of resources.  On the other hand my mom worries about climate change and is very vocal about what everyone else needs to do.  I was visiting her this weekend and she was checking out at the grocery store, complaining to the clerk that the store still used some plastic grocery bags, and that she better not put any of my mom's items in one, and how angry it made her that they used them, and how great places that outlawed them were...  As she purchased plastic cutlery so she wouldn't have to wash flatware now that she has moved into an apartment without a dishwasher (not for a picnic or a big party--for every day use/disposal).  Yep--don't put the box of plastic, disposable cutlery in a plastic shopping bag!

[Happy2BaMom]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

Besides which the scientists were still predicting an ice age when I was a kid.  Who exactly was supposed to know that global warming was gonna be a concern for the grandkids?

That is a gross simplification (although it's an oft-repeated tale in certain circles) of what actually happened, & of the number of actual scientists - very few - who actually predicted an ice age.

If you're interested in a not-too-long summary of the nuances of the beginnings of climate science, and of the confusion there was over the effects of particulates-vs-carbon, this is a pretty good article. 

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I don't "worry" about climate change, but I do try to make a conscious effort to be a good steward of resources.  On the other hand my mom worries about climate change and is very vocal about what everyone else needs to do.  I was visiting her this weekend and she was checking out at the grocery store, complaining to the clerk that the store still used some plastic grocery bags, and that she better not put any of my mom's items in one, and how angry it made her that they used them, and how great places that outlawed them were...  As she purchased plastic cutlery so she wouldn't have to wash flatware now that she has moved into an apartment without a dishwasher (not for a picnic or a big party--for every day use/disposal).  Yep--don't put the box of plastic, disposable cutlery in a plastic shopping bag!

I see this level of cognitive dissonance in my friends on the Left who all firmly believe in man-created climate change, but who's passport books are stamped from 30+ countries throughout the world.

And, yes, I know it's a complex & delicate thing for any individual to determine how much to change his/her own life in the larger scheme of overwhelming systems. But at some point, your actions need to support your beliefs at least somewhat....or they're really not your beliefs.

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Just on this point: back when we used to talk about 'global warming', people in the UK used to think, selfishly, that that sounded okay.  Climate change is not linear, however, and it is already causing great weather turbulence, even in places that could be a few degrees warmer without damage: floods, droughts, erosion, etc.

I studied an undergraduate module on medieval history in the British Isles this semester, and the early 14th century, a period of natural climate change, led to fifty years of drought, floods, famine, an increase in endemic disease and finally the Black Death.

Your view is actually a very succinct summary of climate change.

The increase in heat won't kill off civilization (not for awhile, anyway), but the unpredictable weather (ever-increasing frequency of droughts, floods, hail & wind events, esp during harvest times) & repeated catastrophic storms will kill off the annual agriculture that is nearly solely responsible for sustaining it.

[athena1277]

No.  I think a lot of what people are worried about are just normal cycles of weather.  Heat, cold, hurricanes, floods, etc. are just part of how the world works.  We use reasonable precautions if there’s a threat of something directly impacting us (like taking shelter in a tornado warning), but we don’t dwell on it.

Honestly, has anyone else noticed how some weather forecasters (especially at the national level) are treating every thunderstorm like it’s a super huge deal?  2.5 million people will be impacted!  All the way from X city to Y city!  I’m just like “yes, that’s how thunderstorms work.”  

[prairiewindmomma]

22 minutes ago, athena1277 said:

No.  I think a lot of what people are worried about are just normal cycles of weather.  Heat, cold, hurricanes, floods, etc. are just part of how the world works.  We use reasonable precautions if there’s a threat of something directly impacting us (like taking shelter in a tornado warning), but we don’t dwell on it.

Honestly, has anyone else noticed how some weather forecasters (especially at the national level) are treating every thunderstorm like it’s a super huge deal?  2.5 million people will be impacted!  All the way from X city to Y city!  I’m just like “yes, that’s how thunderstorms work.”  

Hurricane Harvey dumped up to 60” of rain in a five day period over Texas. 5 feet of rain over five days is just not normal, by any stretch of the imagination. That amount of rain could only happen because the Gulf waters were so warm.

Dallas/DFW airport had a 24 hour period last August where they got 9.19” of rain. 
 

We had 118F weather for three days a couple of Junes ago during a time when the average high is in the upper 60s. As a result, thousands of trees and other landscaping and commercial crops became heat stressed and died.

Last April we had a hard frost and snow as the berry bushes and cherry trees were setting frost. Large commercial crops were lost. 

This winter we had over a foot of snow and people died because ambulances couldn’t get to them…because we typically only have 2-3” of snow max…and our huge metro only has a handful of snow plows.

In my circles, the concern isn’t over what was traditionally normal weather.

 

[Lady Florida.]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Hurricane Harvey dumped up to 60” of rain in a five day period over Texas. 5 feet of rain over five days is just not normal, by any stretch of the imagination. That amount of rain could only happen because the Gulf waters were so warm.

Dallas/DFW airport had a 24 hour period last August where they got 9.19” of rain. 
 

We had 118F weather for three days a couple of Junes ago during a time when the average high is in the upper 60s. As a result, thousands of trees and other landscaping and commercial crops became heat stressed and died.

Last April we had a hard frost and snow as the berry bushes and cherry trees were setting frost. Large commercial crops were lost. 

This winter we had over a foot of snow and people died because ambulances couldn’t get to them…because we typically only have 2-3” of snow max…and our huge metro only has a handful of snow plows.

In my circles, the concern isn’t over what was traditionally normal weather.

 

 

And Ft. Lauderdale, FL just got 14-20 inches of rain in 24 hours in the dry season. Even during a hurricane that amount of rain usually falls over a period of several days. 

[Lecka]

I have thought about this, and I think at this point I have incorporated climate change into my world view.  
 

I’m not actively worried about it but it’s a low-level concern that I always have, I think.  
 

There are things that have changed for the worse where I live, in a way that is noticeable to a casual observer.    These aren’t all things that are specifically climate change as much as environmental degradation, but I think of those things together.  Also mismanagement of natural resources. In my mind I think of those all together.  
 

I read something recently about not giving up on change/progress that hasn’t happened “yet.”  It was inspiring, it makes me want to say — let’s not give up on things that haven’t happened “yet” even if it’s hard to believe that the status quo is what it is.  

[SHP]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

The whole "blame the grandparents" sounds so ridiculous to me.  The generation that re-made clothes into quilts, sheets into curtains, that almost never went out to eat or bought fast food, for whom vacation meant primitive tent camping, whose hobby was fishing and they ate the fish, who walked to school and took buses to work, who had 2+ people per bedroom ... who are still wearing the clothes they bought for work 30+ years ago ... effing please.

For many young people, it wasn't their grandparents who did those things, but rather their great grandparents or even, great-great grandparents. And then there is the economic class aspect. Only two sets were poor enough that they did those things. 

 

Throw in something else. Fast fashion. Clothes are not made to last 30 years. For some you are lucky to get 3 months before they fall apart.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

For many young people, it wasn't their grandparents who did those things, but rather their great grandparents or even, great-great grandparents. And then there is the economic class aspect. Only two sets were poor enough that they did those things.

Throw in something else. Fast fashion. Clothes are not made to last 30 years. For some you are lucky to get 3 months before they fall apart.

Still, it would be difficult to find a kid today who is consuming less than his/her grandparents did at the same age.

I don't know what you mean about two sets being poor enough to do those things.  The majority of families I knew growing up did most if not all of those things.

And it's news to me that clothes don't last.  I have clothes from decades ago that I still wear.  And I have never bought "expensive" clothes for myself.  I do have issues with jacket zippers, but I've had the zippers replaced as long as the jacket is otherwise serviceable.  My kids' clothes also last pretty long.  Even the ones bought "used" were in good shape to hand down to my nieces after both of my kids outgrew them.

Of course when I was a kid, clothes lasted because you hung them up after school and put on your "play clothes."  Not sure if that's even a thing any more.  But I suppose that's Grandma's fault too ....

Edited April 26, 2023 by SKL

[SHP]

11 hours ago, SKL said:

Still, it would be difficult to find a kid today who is consuming less than his/her grandparents did at the same age.

I don't know what you mean about two sets being poor enough to do those things.  The majority of families I knew growing up did most if not all of those things.

And it's news to me that clothes don't last.  I have clothes from decades ago that I still wear.  And I have never bought "expensive" clothes for myself.  I do have issues with jacket zippers, but I've had the zippers replaced as long as the jacket is otherwise serviceable.  My kids' clothes also last pretty long.  Even the ones bought "used" were in good shape to hand down to my nieces after both of my kids outgrew them.

Of course when I was a kid, clothes lasted because you hung them up after school and put on your "play clothes."  Not sure if that's even a thing any more.  But I suppose that's Grandma's fault too ....

Here is a quick article about fast fashion. Years ago I watched a documentary about it, but I do not recall the name. It is more of an issue in clothing marketed to women. I do not wear women's clothes so my clothes last. 

https://www.thegoodtrade.com/features/what-is-fast-fashion/

It is almost impossible for young people not to consume more than their grandparents. Grandparents didn't need to have marketable computer skills and experience with them so a computer is a must. Grandparents had land lines vs cell phones. I cannot even get a landline, so everyone has cell phones. The world has changed and to compare what young people needed in order to be successful 50 or 100 years ago is foolish. Yes, our youth consume more, but in many ways, they have no choice. 

[LinRTX]

10 minutes ago, SHP said:

our youth consume more, but in many ways, they have no choice.

But in so many ways it is a choice. And I am not just talking youth. The fast food industry itself is a huge indicator. And all the companies that make the meal kits you can prepare at home, that are delivered weekly. There is so much thrown away here. People don't cook.

[SKL]

42 minutes ago, SHP said:

Here is a quick article about fast fashion. Years ago I watched a documentary about it, but I do not recall the name. It is more of an issue in clothing marketed to women. I do not wear women's clothes so my clothes last. 

https://www.thegoodtrade.com/features/what-is-fast-fashion/

It is almost impossible for young people not to consume more than their grandparents. Grandparents didn't need to have marketable computer skills and experience with them so a computer is a must. Grandparents had land lines vs cell phones. I cannot even get a landline, so everyone has cell phones. The world has changed and to compare what young people needed in order to be successful 50 or 100 years ago is foolish. Yes, our youth consume more, but in many ways, they have no choice. 

I disagree that they have no choice.  They and their parents have choices.  They just choose to focus on what they want today instead of long-term considerations.

My own as well as other kids.

Just can we please stop blaming our parents as if they created this mess; they did not.

I find it disgusting to encourage young people to think and speak that way about their grandparents etc. ... especially while we enable and indulge said young people to be bigger consumers than their ancestors ever were.

[Ellie]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:04 PM, Teaching3bears said:

We have had several weather events in recent years that damaged and destroyed homes.  This kind of thing did not used to happen in our region.  When it is discussed in the news, it is not usually linked a lot to climate change though i know whenever scientists discuss climate change, they link it to extreme weather events.  It feels like climate change is something that is studied in school and talked about in the media but most people don’t think about it much.  Are you worried?

No. If there is such a thing as "climate change," I believe it has nothing to do with human life and activity, and that as nothing we did caused it, nothing we do can stop it or change its course, if it's even a thing. Humans can cause pollution, of course, and they can clean it up, but not the actual, you know, *climate.*

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Ellie said:

No. If there is such a thing as "climate change," I believe it has nothing to do with human life and activity, and that as nothing we did caused it, nothing we do can stop it or change its course, if it's even a thing. Humans can cause pollution, of course, and they can clean it up, but not the actual, you know, *climate.*

You disbelieve that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere increases temperature on the Earth?

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

I disagree that they have no choice.  They and their parents have choices.  They just choose to focus on what they want today instead of long-term considerations.

My own as well as other kids.

Just can we please stop blaming our parents as if they created this mess; they did not.

I find it disgusting to encourage young people to think and speak that way about their grandparents etc. ... especially while we enable and indulge said young people to be bigger consumers than their ancestors ever were.

It seems weird to blame the kids.  Who owns the companies that are designing the washing machines that only last for only 5 years?  It’s not an 18 year old. Who is setting the laws and the low wages? Not 18 year olds.  Who owns the fast fashion companies and the fast food companies.  Not 18 year olds.

It’s boomers in position of power.  Is it all of them?  No.   Your particular Grammy is probably innocent.  But the 1% of the boomer generation has set forth the circumstances that we and our children have found themselves.  

Edited April 26, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It seems weird to blame the kids.  Who owns the companies that are designing the washing machines that only last for only 5 years?  It’s not an 18 year old. Who is setting the laws and the low wages? Not 18 year olds.  Who owns the fast fashion companies and the fast food companies.  Not 18 year olds.

It’s boomers in position of power.  Is it all of them?  No.   Your particular Grammy is probably innocent.  But the 1% of the boomer generation has set forth the circumstances that we and our children have found themselves.  

Now I'm the person blaming everyone?

If you notice, the blame game never solves problems.  Actions solve problems.

[Kalmia]

I don't worry on a daily basis because I do what little I can: conserving resources, supporting preservation of wild habitat, and voting.

I am deeply concerned because the worst effect will be the widespread extinction of insects (already down 50-75% in biomass since 1970 primarily due to habitat loss and industrial agriculture during that period but now accelerated by climate change) which will in turn cause the extinction of most insect-eating species, most species that eat insect-eaters (meaning most animal life on earth), most insect-pollinated plants (trees, wild plants, and crop plants) (again most vegetable life on earth), and will stop the decomposition cycle in the soil, effectively rendering it infertile. If we lose our insects, agricultural production will cease as will the building of new soil. Only wind-pollinated crops (such as the grains) will remain viable in the short term after that and only if chemically fertilized. It is predicted humanity will only survive a few months to a year after the ecological collapse that results, which will probably be accelerated by war over the remaining food. We have basically broken the life machine.

I am glad I got to live to see the tail end of the beauty we've destroyed. I feel like Dr. Who watching the end of the earth with Rose. She's brokenhearted and he's like, duh, of course that's what happened. 

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

Now I'm the person blaming everyone?

If you notice, the blame game never solves problems.  Actions solve problems.

I think that’s where blame, in so far as it makes sense, comes in.  This whole thing with climate change started long before any of us were born.  It started in the Industrial Revolution.   They didn’t know what they were causing, they couldn’t have. But we have known about this for at least 40 years and those in power 40 years ago chose not to do anything and many benefited from that inaction.   
I’m almost 40, I’m an “elder millennial”.  I watched Earth Day programs on Global Warming and the floating Trash Island in elementary school on Nickelodeon, in the early 90s.  My parents and grandparents generations knew what was coming and chose inaction.  It would have been inconvenient for them and they knew they’d never live to see the consequences.

My own generation is just now old enough to start gaining political power.  I think we have less 50 seats out of 538 in Congress, because the majority are just now aging in to eligibility. My generation really wants to do something (according to polls) but 1/3 of Congress is over 70, or something like that.  People in power today will not be alive to deal with the consequences and are thwarting those of us who will live long enough from doing anything.  

[kokotg]

11 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think that’s where blame, in so far as it makes sense, comes in.  This whole thing with climate change started long before any of us were born.  It started in the Industrial Revolution.   They didn’t know what they were causing, they couldn’t have.

This doesn't really have much to do with your larger point, but right before I read your post, I was reading the wikipedia entry on the history of climate change denial, where I found out that the first research into the effects of carbon dioxide on climate happened back in 1824, and by the end of the century the ways in which increased carbon dioxide would increase temperature were pretty well understood. There was an article in Popular Mechanics in 1912 that talked about how burning so much coal could have a substantial effect on global temperatures over time. So, yeah, industry not being willing to give up money now to save the world later has a very long history! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial

Edited April 26, 2023 by kokotg

[SKL]

And industry has gotten a lot cleaner over the past century.  Especially industry in highly developed countries.

US emissions are decreasing.  Fuel economy is way up.  General public knowledge is way up.

It's untrue that industry hasn't done anything but destroy the world faster.

Some of us love to hate capitalists and will distort the truth for their agenda.  Ironically they even love to hate the current manufacturer of the most fuel-efficient cars out there.

The tone of the climate discussion has been wrong for decades.  It doesn't benefit anything.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

And industry has gotten a lot cleaner over the past century.  Especially industry in highly developed countries.

US emissions are decreasing.  Fuel economy is way up.  General public knowledge is way up.

It's untrue that industry hasn't done anything but destroy the world faster.

Some of us love to hate capitalists and will distort the truth for their agenda.  Ironically they even love to hate the current manufacturer of the most fuel-efficient cars out there.

The tone of the climate discussion has been wrong for decades.  It doesn't benefit anything.

What are your suggestions?  If the current tone is wrong, what would be better? 

[kokotg]

50 minutes ago, SKL said:

And industry has gotten a lot cleaner over the past century.  Especially industry in highly developed countries.

US emissions are decreasing.  Fuel economy is way up.  General public knowledge is way up.

It's untrue that industry hasn't done anything but destroy the world faster.

Some of us love to hate capitalists and will distort the truth for their agenda.  Ironically they even love to hate the current manufacturer of the most fuel-efficient cars out there.

The tone of the climate discussion has been wrong for decades.  It doesn't benefit anything.

It's extremely well documented that corporations covered up research on climate change for decades. I don't have any issue blaming them.

 

[SHP]

5 hours ago, LinRTX said:

But in so many ways it is a choice. And I am not just talking youth. The fast food industry itself is a huge indicator. And all the companies that make the meal kits you can prepare at home, that are delivered weekly. There is so much thrown away here. People don't cook.

I was referring specifically to things like computers and cell phones. I do not use computers in my job, but I have to have basic computer literacy skills to maintain my job and to get paid. My parents didn't need to have this level of basic computer literacy and I know my grandparents didn't either. 

 

Fast food is another issue and I would argue one that started long before anyone under 40 was old enough to drive their car through a drive thru. I live in a food desert. I have to drive to get groceries. I pass dozens and dozens of restaurants and food options in order to get groceries. Food deserts, and urban planning that penalized being poor are yet another conversation. 

[SHP]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

I disagree that they have no choice.  They and their parents have choices.  They just choose to focus on what they want today instead of long-term considerations.

My own as well as other kids.

Just can we please stop blaming our parents as if they created this mess; they did not.

I find it disgusting to encourage young people to think and speak that way about their grandparents etc. ... especially while we enable and indulge said young people to be bigger consumers than their ancestors ever were.

Umm our parents literally did create this mess. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think that’s where blame, in so far as it makes sense, comes in.  This whole thing with climate change started long before any of us were born.  It started in the Industrial Revolution.   They didn’t know what they were causing, they couldn’t have. But we have known about this for at least 40 years and those in power 40 years ago chose not to do anything and many benefited from that inaction.   
I’m almost 40, I’m an “elder millennial”.  I watched Earth Day programs on Global Warming and the floating Trash Island in elementary school on Nickelodeon, in the early 90s.  My parents and grandparents generations knew what was coming and chose inaction.  It would have been inconvenient for them and they knew they’d never live to see the consequences.

My own generation is just now old enough to start gaining political power.  I think we have less 50 seats out of 538 in Congress, because the majority are just now aging in to eligibility. My generation really wants to do something (according to polls) but 1/3 of Congress is over 70, or something like that.  People in power today will not be alive to deal with the consequences and are thwarting those of us who will live long enough from doing anything.  

I'm always curious about what the bolded means.

If we mean individual action in personal lives, many of these generations had much lower carbon footprints.

If we mean 'had the power to change things, because CEO's and Presidents and other persons of political influence', that's not a generational issue. In any generation, most people are not in positions of power and influence.

Does it mean, did not pressure political parties to be climate-first, and then did not vote for climate first political parties ?

Or does it just mean, 'politicians of particular generations and parties?'

~

This is just a bit of a trail off the main topic, but it always strikes me that we 'parentify' previous generations, generalizing out from our specific experiences. So mine, for example, is that the two generations preceding me were all about living in harmony with the earth, and conservation, and a low-footprint lifestyle, so I just don't really recognize the 'they' who chose 'inaction'.

No need to reply - not arguing, just musing.

I'm not a big fan of using generations as a proxy for class consciousness 🙂

 

 

 

[Heartstrings]

I suppose I just don’t understand. If previous generations were living low carbon foot print, low consumption lifestyles…where did the problems come from? When we say “habitat was lost” who did that? Did urban sprawl do itself? The hole in the ozone just popped open?  Where did the stuff in the Island if Trash come from?   If it was the fault of politicians, who voted for them? If emission are going down, who was responsible for them being up? 
 

Why are there articles about millennials killing this or that industry because we aren’t shopping enough? Articles about all of the junk todays elders are leaving as they pass that no one wants, because it’s so much?  Which generations are living in the McMansions and which are doing tiny homes and minimalism? Who owns all of the storage units that are taking over my town?

There might be a bit a revisionist history, some rosy retrospection going on here. 
 

I agree “generations” are a bit clunky as a tool, but it’s useful when thinking about age cohorts through time.  Of course there were hippy types, natural types in the 60s and 70s. But they were either so small as to be ineffective, or they grew up to buy the McMansions in the 80s, on what used to be farmland and woodland habitat, because someone bought those houses, and consumed all the plastics in the 80s and 90s, and it wasn’t the “kids these days” who weren’t born until after 2000.  

 My “consumerism” as an 8 year old didn’t cause the hole in the ozone or Trash Island that were in my nightly news, but somehow no other generation did it either.  Modern mysteries, I suppose.  

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I suppose I just don’t understand. If previous generations were living low carbon foot print, low consumption lifestyles…where did the problems come from? When we say “habitat was lost” who did that? Did urban sprawl do itself? The hole in the ozone just popped open?  Where did the stuff in the Island if Trash come from?   If it was the fault of politicians, who voted for them? If emission are going down, who was responsible for them being up? 
 

Why are there articles about millennials killing this or that industry because we aren’t shopping enough? Articles about all of the junk todays elders are leaving as they pass that no one wants, because it’s so much?  Which generations are living in the McMansions and which are doing tiny homes and minimalism? Who owns all of the storage units that are taking over my town?

There might be a bit a revisionist history, some rosy retrospection going on here. 
 

I agree “generations” are a bit clunky as a tool, but it’s useful when thinking about age cohorts through time.  Of course there were hippy types, natural types in the 60s and 70s. But they were either so small as to be ineffective, or they grew up to buy the McMansions in the 80s, on what used to be farmland and woodland habitat, because someone bought those houses, and consumed all the plastics in the 80s and 90s, and it wasn’t the “kids these days” who weren’t born until after 2000.  

 My “consumerism” as an 8 year old didn’t cause the hole in the ozone or Trash Island that were in my nightly news, but somehow no other generation did it either.  Modern mysteries, I suppose.  

I agree, you don't seem to understand.  Exactly how many McMansions exist in the US right now, and what is the average age of their owners?  I suspect you may be surprised once you locate the answers to those questions.

I dunno about you all, but my parents live in a house that is over 100 years old (that we moved to when I was 12).  Their previous house is also almost 100 years old.  Neither is a "mcmansion," I assure you.

One thing that has impacted the environment is the number of kids being born, which is not so much a US as a global issue.

I'm not an ozone scientist.  I remember them saying that issue was caused by aerosol spray cans, so they stopped making those.  My mom used to use hair spray before she got on the bus to go to work each day.  I suppose you would say that makes her the cause of climate change.  Like she was supposed to know that spraying her hair was going to cause babies in poor tropical countries to be displaced decades later.  Sure.

Most adults in their generation (including my parents) weren't even high school graduates.  Internet and cable news didn't exist, and local news sources had limited information.  Yet we fault them all for not knowing what the climate scientists were theorizing?

I clearly remember as a kid in the 1970s that the TV news was talking about an ice age prediction by scientists.  Was that my parents' fault too?  I'm sure it was somehow.  Oh and PS my folks had voted Democrat in 1960 (JFK) so isn't it shocking that climate change didn't stop right there?

Edited April 26, 2023 by SKL

[SHP]

Average car gas mileage. Note that white flight and sleeper communities were in full force and people had to commute to cities. In many places public tansportation was almsot nil outside of major cities. 

1970s:11.9 MPG

2021: 25.4 miles per gallon

But sure, blame the younger generation. 

 

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, SHP said:

Average car gas mileage. Note that white flight and sleeper communities were in full force and people had to commute to cities. In many places public tansportation was almsot nil outside of major cities. 

1970s:11.9 MPG

2021: 25.4 miles per gallon

But sure, blame the younger generation. 

 

With leaded gasoline.  Ah, those low carbon footprint great American Road Trips.  
 

I think frugal is being conflated with being good for the environment.