Shonda Rhimes & normalizing tv

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I am currently listening to Shonda Rhimes' audiobook Year of Yes.

I have never watched Grey's Anatomy, Private Practice, or Scandal. I watched the first two seasons of How to Get Away With Murder and that was my only exposure to Shonda's work. I selected Year of Yes because I was ready for a non-fic written by a female author and this fit the bill

I am enjoying Year of Yes (and have less than an hour to go and will finish it today) but there is one point I keep coming back to. In the book Shonda says she wants to normalize television. She wants the people on her shows to resemble the people in real life - women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. 

Well, after listening to Year of Yes, I decided to begin watching Grey's Anatomy and binged the first 5 episodes. I also looked up the cast of Scandal and Private Practice. Yes, I do believe Shonda is doing wonderful things to increase the representation of marginalized groups but 95% of her main characters are still part of The Beautiful People. The secondary cast members (patients, patients' families, extra hospital staff in Grey's) are the 'normal' people. I use normal here to tie it back to Shonda's vision of normalization and not to imply that The Beautiful People aren't normal. I can say with absolute certainty, however, that very few members of the medical community I have seen look like the doctors on Grey's.

Wouldn't a true normalizing of television mean hiring actors and actresses who are larger sized (and I don't mean a random plus sized person but people who are in the size 8-16 range), average looking, and who have less than perfect skin and hair?

I also want to see people who actually have to walk across the parking lot when they arrive late to work. I mean, who gets the parking spot right next to the hospital door every.single.time?

[Katy]

I haven’t read the book, but years ago I took her writing master class. I think Grey’s was her first series. She had no power until it became the mega-hit it was and she was given a lot more power and opportunities. So assume the casting was controlled and approved by the network then. Not to mention it was decades ago and the goal was to get something made, not changing the world yet. 

[Katy]

Also, there are special lots and areas in ramps reserved for doctors. So yeah, they get the same spot every time. 

The reason I couldn’t watch that show was the vast underrepresentation of nurses. Residents don’t do nursing work except in that show. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

21 minutes ago, Katy said:

I haven’t read the book, but years ago I took her writing master class. I think Grey’s was her first series. She had no power until it became the mega-hit it was and she was given a lot more power and opportunities. So assume the casting was controlled and approved by the network then. Not to mention it was decades ago and the goal was to get something made, not changing the world yet. 

In Year of Yes, Shonda says she did have control over casting and actually discusses how she said "no" to the actress others at the table wanted to use for the Christine character. She certainly had more control by the time Scandal and Private Practice aired.

And, yes, I agree there is a lack of support staff doing any work in Grey's.  The interns are doing it all - from drawing labs to running ultrasounds.

RE parking: there is no way an intern would get the second spot in the lot. The chief of staff, yes, The Head of nursing, maybe. A first year intern, never.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

46 minutes ago, Katy said:

Also, there are special lots and areas in ramps reserved for doctors. So yeah, they get the same spot every time. 

The reason I couldn’t watch that show was the vast underrepresentation of nurses. Residents don’t do nursing work except in that show. 

In fifteen years I can assure everyone I have never once seen a resident doctor(especially a surgeon) start a peripheral IV and wheel someone down to CT. 😂
 

The first two seasons of Grey’s got me through paramedic school. It was easy mind candy when my brain was overstuffed and exploding. Now I just complain about the lack of realism, but I still enjoy the first few seasons. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[livetoread]

It's one of the reasons I like British police procedural shows. The women aren't always beautiful people. In US TV shows, the men can be all sorts of things, but the women are still almost always beautiful people. I was really struck to see so many lead British actresses in those shows who looked normal and tired and stressed and not perfectly sleek in size 2 clothes. It's great.

[KidsHappen]

I read way back in the beginning that she used colorblind/gender neutral casting for Grey's. Meaning if she needed a Chief then men and women of all colors could try out and whoever fit the character best was cast. She did this with all major characters and many of the main cast tried out for several different positions. And while some of the characters were stunningly beautiful many of them are what I would consider to be normal people.

Yes, a lot of them were very thin but I think given their jobs that was realistic. The doctors and interns worked at least 80 hours a week, they had studying and continuing education, they were constantly running around and preforming hours long surgeries, they rarely had time to eat and the interns probably didn't have much money to eat well. And they did have people who were overweight.

Grey's is almost 20 years old now so given that ino I think she did an excellent job at the time and it still surpasses most of the stuff on tv now.

[regentrude]

Is it realistic? Of course not. Surgeons aren't taking patients to the ER or doing half the stuff doctors are doing on the show. My sister is an anesthesiologist. They do actually talk to patients 😉

OTOH, every show has to streamline the cast of characters. Think of all those crime procedural series where the pathologist single-handedly deals with the entire scientific analysis of crime scene evidence and is well versed in fiber analysis, toxicology, particulate analysis, identifying tire tracks... It's TV. 
And as far as TV goes, Grey's is high quality in the way they address societal issues related to medicine. And if using attractive actors keeps people watching and engaging with the issues, shrug. I figure after 20+ years, they know exactly what gets an audience and what doesn't.

ETA: Plenty of characters I don't consider "beautiful". Even Meridith Grey isn't - at least not compared to stunning Izzy. 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by regentrude

[MEmama]

That's why I love young people tv. Modern coming of age type shows all the representation, and don't make a big deal out of it. It just is, because that's how real life is.
 

Young Royals features kids (the lead actor even) with acne, scars, various races, natural hair, different weights. Some of the actors in Skam attended the same school the show features, while acting in the show. They were all teenagers playing teenagers; they are the other kids in your student's class. They walk how teenagers walk, they dress in their own clothes, the dialogue is natural and organic because a lot of it is improvised. I could go on and on. Today's young people tv is a far cry from the drivel we grew up with, and IMO much more realistic than almost anything created for adults.

[Lady Florida.]

36 minutes ago, livetoread said:

It's one of the reasons I like British police procedural shows. The women aren't always beautiful people. In US TV shows, the men can be all sorts of things, but the women are still almost always beautiful people. I was really struck to see so many lead British actresses in those shows who looked normal and tired and stressed and not perfectly sleek in size 2 clothes. It's great.

 

Yes. I was going to post something about this but read the thread first and saw your post. I think the British are much better at not falling into the trap of only using beautiful people in their shows. 

 

 

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

 

Yes. I was going to post something about this but read the thread first and saw your post. I think the British are much better at not falling into the trap of only using beautiful people in their shows. 

 

 

I think it's true of most non-North American made shows. The two I mentioned above are Swedish and Norwegian. 
 

Of course there always exceptions (ahem, Elite--Spanish), but in general Hollywood (etc) creations must be under a lot more pressure than content from other countries.

[sassenach]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Is it realistic? Of course not. Surgeons aren't taking patients to the ER or doing half the stuff doctors are doing on the show.

Medically, it's incredibly unrealistic. Half of what the doctors do on that show are really what nursing does. It's fiction. 

The show's strength was the dialogue and music choices. 

That era of TV is over now. There's a bajillion choices out there, many of them of much higher quality than Grey's.

 

[Faith-manor]

34 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Is it realistic? Of course not. Surgeons aren't taking patients to the ER or doing half the stuff doctors are doing on the show. My sister is an anesthesiologist. They do actually talk to patients 😉

OTOH, every show has to streamline the cast of characters. Think of all those crime procedural series where the pathologist single-handedly deals with the entire scientific analysis of crime scene evidence and is well versed in fiber analysis, toxicology, particulate analysis, identifying tire tracks... It's TV. 
And as far as TV goes, Grey's is high quality in the way they address societal issues related to medicine. And if using attractive actors keeps people watching and engaging with the issues, shrug. I figure after 20+ years, they know exactly what gets an audience and what doesn't.

ETA: Plenty of characters I don't consider "beautiful". Even Meridith Grey isn't - at least not compared to stunning Izzy. 

 

I feel the same way about the old medical show E.R. in a one hour show, it is impossible to fully represent the operational function of an E.R. and trauma medicine. If the cast of characters gets too big, people will lose interest because they can't follow the story lines. T.v. really can't imitate life accurately, but with persistence it can get closer which is probably what Rhonda Rimes was going for with her shows. One of the things that struck me about E.R. was that it seriously tried to deal with societal issues from mental illness, racial inequality, LGBTQ discrimination and so forth. I did like the fact that the E.R. nurses and even the reception/check in desk characters were important, had lines, had lives, and weren't just extras. It some what accurately represented the frustration of the highly trained trauma nurses who often DO a ridiculous amount of training of interns and first year residents, but then were looked down upon for not being doctors. It showed the E.R. staff having to do their annual paramedic ride alongside and coming to appreciate what their medics and firemen endured in the line of duty as well as dealing with the death of a dearly loved medic for giving his life to rescue another, and how that impacted his paramedic partner, the E.R. staff. I honestly felt like despite the fact that as I watch it today I yell at the screen, "Are you kidding me? No way do they delay that intubation until_______!" or other inaccuracies created for the added drama, it was one of the better medical dramas for showing the humanness of what medical providers and patients face in a busy, urban trauma center. And again, I really loved the nurses. I felt their frustration, and their struggle to decide if they would pursue medical school or not because being a doctor meant moving beyond the discrimination on them, and much bigger pay, more options. On the other hand, they loved patient care, being so hands on at every level of what happened to their patients, and becoming a doctor meant losing that connection. Michael Crichton was the consultant for the show and seemed to do a pretty good job of it despite the limitations of a one hour show, and all the ridiculousness of Hollywood.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I want to point out that I didn't mean to say the plots are realistic or unrealistic, I understand that an hourlong program cannot possibly imitate real life in that way.  I was just struck that Shonda states in her book that normalizing tv was important to her (and I think she did a good job) but that I was surprised that her main casts of characters across four shows still represented the typical Hollywood stereotype. I am only 5 episodes into Grey's, never watched Scandal or Private Practice, and some of HTGAM.  The casts are beautiful, slim/slender, perfect teeth, perfect skin, fashionable, etc. To me that is not normalizing. It's still buying into or selling the Hollywood stereotype.

I could say the same thing for CSI, NCIS, Star Trek (all new series). They are doing wonders for bringing marginalized groups into the forefront but the main casts are all gorgeous.

 

[sassenach]

6 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I want to point out that I didn't mean to say the plots are realistic or unrealistic, I understand that an hourlong program cannot possibly imitate real life in that way.  I was just struck that Shonda states in her book that normalizing tv was important to her (and I think she did a good job) but that I was surprised that her main casts of characters across four shows still represented the typical Hollywood stereotype. I am only 5 episodes into Grey's, never watched Scandal or Private Practice, and some of HTGAM.  The casts are beautiful, slim/slender, perfect teeth, perfect skin, fashionable, etc. To me that is not normalizing. It's still buying into or selling the Hollywood stereotype.

I could say the same thing for CSI, NCIS, Star Trek (all new series). They are doing wonders for bringing marginalized groups into the forefront but the main casts are all gorgeous.

 

I mean, that show is almost 20 years old...it's hard to remember what the norms were and which ones they pushed against vs not. I don't think they did anything with casting that ER didn't do 10 years prior. And the ER actors were probably more "normal" looking as far as beauty standards.

How a person remembers and reflects on (and later writes about) their own motives is going to be somewhat unrealistic. I think most people tend to look back on their choices as more benevolent than they really were. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

It's one of the reasons I like British police procedural shows. The women aren't always beautiful people. In US TV shows, the men can be all sorts of things, but the women are still almost always beautiful people. I was really struck to see so many lead British actresses in those shows who looked normal and tired and stressed and not perfectly sleek in size 2 clothes. It's great.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

 

Yes. I was going to post something about this but read the thread first and saw your post. I think the British are much better at not falling into the trap of only using beautiful people in their shows. 

 

 

I, too, was coming in to say this.  In the show, Sherlock, I was struck by the charisma of the Irene Adler character.  She was the femme fatal who screamed sex appeal. In Hollywood, she would have been much too old for that role, and would most likely get to be the main character's mother.  Other actors who would not have ever played love interests in Hollywood ... Nicola Walker, Olivia Colman, etc.  

I do love how British TV lets actors shine in what they do best and you get to see the beauty of their characters.  They make ordinary people beautiful - you end up drawn to them like real people.

[Selkie]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

It's one of the reasons I like British police procedural shows. The women aren't always beautiful people. In US TV shows, the men can be all sorts of things, but the women are still almost always beautiful people. I was really struck to see so many lead British actresses in those shows who looked normal and tired and stressed and not perfectly sleek in size 2 clothes. It's great.

Same with Scandinavian shows. We watch a lot of Nordic noir series, and the fact that everybody looks like regular people is one of our favorite things about them.

[Faith-manor]

32 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I mean, that show is almost 20 years old...it's hard to remember what the norms were and which ones they pushed against vs not. I don't think they did anything with casting that ER didn't do 10 years prior. And the ER actors were probably more "normal" looking as far as beauty standards.

How a person remembers and reflects on (and later writes about) their own motives is going to be somewhat unrealistic. I think most people tend to look back on their choices as more benevolent than they really were. 

I agree about the ER cast. Many of the actors and actresses were more realistic in their representation of medical personnel and first responders as well as patients and their families.

But I have to say, I was a Bailey fan when it came to Grey's. Her personality was awesome.

Private Practice is another kettle of fish. The reality is that the show was predicated on concierge medicine at a big price tag, and with a beautiful people cast for the most part, spectacular costuming/clothing. It was Malibu Barbie medicine, and though it did wrestle with some major societal issues, I feel like it failed spectacularly at these representations compared to ER and Grey's. But I am sure other people saw different things in it. Film/t.v. is an art form so we all form very subjective opinions about it. I am no expert.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

But I have to say, I was a Bailey fan when it came to Grey's. Her personality was awesome.

Is! She's still there, along with Richard Webber. She outlasted Merideth.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Is! She's still there, along with Richard Webber. She outlasted Merideth.

She was, in my mind, the very best character of the show.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

She was, in my mind, the very best character of the show.

She's fabulous. And I wouldn't consider her a conventional Hollywood beauty at all.

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

 

Wouldn't a true normalizing of television mean hiring actors and actresses who are larger sized (and I don't mean a random plus sized person but people who are in the size 8-16 range), average looking, and who have less than perfect skin and hair?

 

 

I haven't read other replies. But to this I will say it is ideal but also say it is actually difficult for those actresses that are not tiny but also are not obese to find work. The TV show Shadow and Bone, for instance. They cast Danielle Galligan as Nina and we think she is wonderful. She is a good in between size, not obese but not a typical 00. She frustratingly was deemed too large for parts in the past even though she isn't too large and then she was so happy to be cast as Nina. She ended up getting a bit of a backlash from some book fans that were not happy because they thought she wasn't large enough. So, the in between people can really struggle. 

[wintermom]

British TV has a lot more "normal sized" actors, however they are extremely talented actors and their diction is perfect for their role. Thought it's not even these things that really get me watching Britsh TV, it's the well-written plots and dialogues. And when a series has finished exploring interesting plots, they stop the show. 

[Ausmumof3]

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m pretty sure she’s behind Bridgerton which does feature Penelope, who is plus sized and spotty faced although there’s an awful lot of “beautiful people” as well.

[Clarita]

36 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m pretty sure she’s behind Bridgerton which does feature Penelope, who is plus sized and spotty faced although there’s an awful lot of “beautiful people” as well.

Spotty-faced, goodness Penelope is gorgeous. I think Bridgerton shows that people of all shapes, sizes and looks can be drop dead gorgeous with enough make-up, tailored clothes, and can't breath. Even the men said their outfits are not comfortable.

[Ausmumof3]

47 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Spotty-faced, goodness Penelope is gorgeous. I think Bridgerton shows that people of all shapes, sizes and looks can be drop dead gorgeous with enough make-up, tailored clothes, and can't breath. Even the men said their outfits are not comfortable.

I agree. But she is definitely not Hollywood traditional beautiful, she does a great job of exactly what the OP was talking about. But I think that’s also because that’s how she’s written in the books, so they had to be somewhat faithful to it I guess?

[Sneezyone]

Does no one recognize that Dr. Bailey, from the beginning, was/is plus-sized and not conventionally beautiful?

Edited April 11, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

British TV and theatre has its own diversity issues - yes, actors can look  more 'normal'.

They're overwhelmingly drawn from the middle and upper classes.

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/apr/01/christopher-eccleston-impossible-for-me-to-become-an-actor-today

[Sneezyone]

Also, TBH, Sandra Oh isn't conventionally attractive with porcelain skin either. She's definitely interesting, not unattractive, but typically gorgeous? No. There's a much better case to be made about the male leads being eye candy.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

37 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Does no one recognize that Dr. Bailey, from the beginning was/is plus-sized and not conventionally beautiful?

Yes, but she's brash, called the Nazi, and not a lovable character yet but I'm only 5 episodes in. George isn't the typical Hollywood handsome either but he's the comedic foil in the show. It's difficult to take him seriously. Even when they gave him a love interest he gets an STD after one night. Meredith and Izzy treat him like one of the girls even sending him to buy tampons.

I guess I am questioning why the 'normal' people are treated differently?

 

I am also wondering (perhaps a bit dismayed) that in the 20 years since Grey premiered we seem to have not progressed with normalizing how actors and actresses look.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Yes, but she's brash, called the Nazi, and not a lovable character yet but I'm only 5 episodes in. George isn't the typical Hollywood handsome either but he's the comedic foil in the show. It's difficult to take him seriously. Even when they gave him a love interest he gets an STD after one night. Meredith and Izzy treat him like one of the girls even sending him to buy tampons.

I guess I am questioning why the 'normal' people are treated differently?

 

I am also wondering (perhaps a bit dismayed) that in the 20 years since Grey premiered we seem to have not progressed with normalizing how actors and actresses look.

Bailey has always been my fave! I find her deeply relatable, lol. Allowing them to age and gain weight and have wrinkles is a BFD. That happened. I do think as time went on and Shonda was less involved in casting it became more stereotypical. All of the young cast additions fit the beauty mould, regardless of color or ethnicity.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Yes, but she's brash, called the Nazi, and not a lovable character yet but I'm only 5 episodes in. 

Keep watching.  You'll come to love Bailey. She's a phenomenal character who inspires love and devotion in the interns and colleagues and a great role model for the young people ( they just don't know it yet at the start of their journey in season 1)

Edited April 11, 2023 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Keep watching.  You'll come to love Bailey. She's a phenomenal character who inspires love and devotion in the interns and colleagues and a great role model for the young people ( they just don't know it yet at the start of their journey in season 1)

Agreed. She is an absolutely inspiring character. What not to love? Though the show was not one of my favorites, Bailey is one of my favorite t.v. personalities.

[wintermom]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

British TV and theatre has its own diversity issues - yes, actors can look  more 'normal'.

They're overwhelmingly drawn from the middle and upper classes.

As are US and Canadian actors. You've got to have money to pay for all the dance, voice and acting lessons - and/or move to LA/NYC or Toronto/Vancouver, and that means middle to upper class. And you also have to have some means of supporting yourself while you wait for "your big break" and start making some money in the business.

ETA: Garga just posted about her extended family's twins who made it onto a tv show without any previous experience or training, so it is possible, just very unlikely. Very cool, though!

Edited April 11, 2023 by wintermom

[Laura Corin]

17 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I am currently listening to Shonda Rhimes' audiobook Year of Yes.

I have never watched Grey's Anatomy, Private Practice, or Scandal. I watched the first two seasons of How to Get Away With Murder and that was my only exposure to Shonda's work. I selected Year of Yes because I was ready for a non-fic written by a female author and this fit the bill

I am enjoying Year of Yes (and have less than an hour to go and will finish it today) but there is one point I keep coming back to. In the book Shonda says she wants to normalize television. She wants the people on her shows to resemble the people in real life - women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. 

Well, after listening to Year of Yes, I decided to begin watching Grey's Anatomy and binged the first 5 episodes. I also looked up the cast of Scandal and Private Practice. Yes, I do believe Shonda is doing wonderful things to increase the representation of marginalized groups but 95% of her main characters are still part of The Beautiful People. The secondary cast members (patients, patients' families, extra hospital staff in Grey's) are the 'normal' people. I use normal here to tie it back to Shonda's vision of normalization and not to imply that The Beautiful People aren't normal. I can say with absolute certainty, however, that very few members of the medical community I have seen look like the doctors on Grey's.

Wouldn't a true normalizing of television mean hiring actors and actresses who are larger sized (and I don't mean a random plus sized person but people who are in the size 8-16 range), average looking, and who have less than perfect skin and hair?

I also want to see people who actually have to walk across the parking lot when they arrive late to work. I mean, who gets the parking spot right next to the hospital door every.single.time?

I find it hard to watch some mainstream US telly. Everyone is so perfect looking that I can't remember which character is which.

[LuvToRead]

I also appreciate that British TV characters wear their clothes more than once.  We bounce back and forth between Brit Box and Acorn.  I rarely watch any U.S. TV shows.  I did enjoy Alaska Daily, although I haven't watched any episodes that have aired this year. 

[catz]

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

British TV and theatre has its own diversity issues - yes, actors can look  more 'normal'.

They're overwhelmingly drawn from the middle and upper classes.

Well this is a whole thing with going into the arts at all.  A lot of it is pay to play.  As a parent who has just gone through the  music college admissions process in the US for the 2nd time.   No coincidence the fanciest, highest profile programs have the highest student family of origin incomes.  And if you have to take out student loans, it may not be worth it becuase you have no financial flexibilty to launch as an artist/performer, etc.  

I watched many seasons of Grey's but gave up on it when I couldnt stand it any more.  Calling it representative or realistic is pretty laughable to me.  I am always glad to see more representation though.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, catz said:

Well this is a whole thing with going into the arts at all.  A lot of it is pay to play.  As a parent who has just gone through the  music college admissions process in the US for the 2nd time.   No coincidence the fanciest, highest profile programs have the highest student family of origin incomes.  And if you have to take out student loans, it may not be worth it becuase you have no financial flexibilty to launch as an artist/performer, etc.  

 

Totally.

Pay to play is a good way of putting it.