New gun violence thread

[Terabith]

I don’t think we have any chance in hell of getting rid of guns.  At this point I’m not sure trying is even worth it.  
 

What I would do is regulate the heck out of ammunition. 

[HomeAgain]

Just now, Terabith said:

 

What I would do is regulate the heck out of ammunition. 

YES!

The general public might have a wonky read on the right to bear arms, but nowhere does it say they have to be provided with commercially made ammunition for the weapon.

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

there are posters here (not you!) who seem to love getting threads about important issues derailed and/or shut down

Apologies for the rabbit trail, but this is the second time I've read something like this here lately. I must be naive or blind or something, because who is deliberately trying to get threads locked?

Yes, people disagree with each other, vehemently sometimes, and sometimes those threads get shut down, particularly if they are political (which I find a very problematic term--almost everything important can be thought of as political!).

But is there anyone who actually wants that to happen, who intentionally wants to stop conversation? I didn't think that was the culture here on this board. 

(Not throwing any shade on the mods; they do what they have to do and/or what they think is best.)

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

Yes, we’ve looked into it. Unfortunately last I knew New Zealand doesn’t have digital nomad visas and DH’s employer doesn’t have a location there. That would be our #1 choice. 

 

• I don't know about digital nomad visas, but here is the list of all the ICT jobs that NZ is desperate for. This is a national shortage, there are also regional shortages. As you can see, it is a pretty big list. My dh is in ICT, and when he interviews, he is the ONLY person they are considering.  There is just no one here who can do the work.
•  
• 

[Pawz4me]

10 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Apologies for the rabbit trail, but this is the second time I've read something like this here lately. I must be naive or blind or something, because who is deliberately trying to get threads locked?

 

I'll PM you.

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

There's no scientifically proven correlation between legal gun ownership and murder.

I was curious, so went to see countries sorted by percent of households owning guns.  I decided not to go by Number of guns per person because that would include people with an arsenal, and it only takes one gun to kill. Here is the list, I had to sort on the percent button to see it in order.  Obviously the USA is number one, but there are a lot of safe countries in the top 10. I don't really have a point, just found it interesting. 

[HomeAgain]

That is an interesting chart, @lewelma.  It seems to be that the unregulated nature of the U.S. is what contributes most to mass shootings.  Other countries, like Finland, have longer application processes, licenses restricted to a singular gun type, needed justification for owning the weapon, and mental health checks.

In contrast, it can be thought that the percentage numbers for the U.S. may be even higher, since regulations are rolled back to nothingness in some areas and people can own weapons without the need to even get a background check or register their firearms.  It's a bit like homeschooling that way, in which some people will not report with any documentation in areas so we really have no idea.

[Ting Tang]

This is a rabbit trail... re: other kinds of violence, gun violence, drugs, etc.

I think many problems could be prevented if more children had two parents versus one.  And I don't mean two crazy dysfunctional parents like the parade shooter the last 4th of July.

But it's almost taboo to even mention that idea.  Why can't we talk about that--why can't our politicians and leaders promote that?   Why is it so bad to say that?  

I was watching a video on YouTube yesterday, and a male nonprofit worker said that he truly believes that equal time parenting laws, child support modifications, and incarceration policies (locking people up a long time for petty crimes) were made/changed, that would help the crime in his city.  He said kids need fathers.

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

4 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What we need is to prevent the unthinkable from being thinkable.  

We ALWAYS had a ton ton of guns in this country.  

What has changed?  It’s not that.  There is something else.  I don’t know what, although I do have a couple of theories.  But until we figure that out and get on it, we are not going to be effective in prevention.

Having members of Congress replace their flag lapel pins with those of miniature AR-15s, as some have done recently, probably sends the wrong message about gun violence in this country.

Things have changed. And not for the better.

Bill

 

 

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This is a rabbit trail... re: other kinds of violence, gun violence, drugs, etc.

I think many problems could be prevented if more children had two parents versus one.  And I don't mean two crazy dysfunctional parents like the parade shooter the last 4th of July.

But it's almost taboo to even mention that idea.  Why can't we talk about that--why can't our politicians and leaders promote that?   Why is it so bad to say that?  

I was watching a video on YouTube yesterday, and a male nonprofit worker said that he truly believes that equal time parenting laws, child support modifications, and incarceration policies (locking people up a long time for petty crimes) were made/changed, that would help the crime in his city.  He said kids need fathers.

 

 

 

Well, I don't know if that is true. I think it is deeper than that. Between WWI and WWII, Europe endured an awful lot of homes without fathers, dads who didn't come home, in the millions. It didn't raise violence levels and crime subsequently. 2.5 million lost their dads in Germany alone. The US lost 180,000 fathers. There has been no correlation or hint of causation that these fatherless kids were more prone to crime and violence.

It is easy to blame that. But the reality is there is something bizarrely wrong with the American psyche in the last 30 years.

I personally believe we are a culture obsessed with violence as a means of airing grievances, an abnormal fascination and hero worship of violent people. However, that's only one facet of the problem.

[HomeAgain]

9 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This is a rabbit trail... re: other kinds of violence, gun violence, drugs, etc.

I think many problems could be prevented if more children had two parents versus one.  And I don't mean two crazy dysfunctional parents like the parade shooter the last 4th of July.

But it's almost taboo to even mention that idea.  Why can't we talk about that--why can't our politicians and leaders promote that?   Why is it so bad to say that?  

I was watching a video on YouTube yesterday, and a male nonprofit worker said that he truly believes that equal time parenting laws, child support modifications, and incarceration policies (locking people up a long time for petty crimes) were made/changed, that would help the crime in his city.  He said kids need fathers.

 

 

 

Nobody gives a rat's butt about beliefs that are not backed up by science.

You know what helps crime reduction?

Caring communities

Mental health access

Socialized medicine

Living wages

Policies meant to enhance life

 

You know what doesn't help?

Deciding that a 2 parent family is demanded, looking down on those who don't have one, and NOT providing the community support necessary for family units of all kinds to flourish.  This is utter nonsensical claptrap.

 

[Ting Tang]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

Well, I don't know if that is true. I think it is deeper than that. Between WWI and WWII, Europe endured an awful lot of homes without fathers, dads who didn't come home, in the millions. It didn't raise violence levels and crime subsequently. 2.5 million lost their dads in Germany alone. The US lost 180,000 fathers. There has been no correlation or hint of causation that these fatherless kids were more prone to crime and violence.

It is easy to blame that. But the reality is there is something bizarrely wrong with the American psyche in the last 30 years.

I personally believe we are a culture obsessed with violence as a means of airing grievances, an abnormal fascination and hero worship of violent people. However, that's only one facet of the problem.

I wonder if the idea has more to do with the "why" part of being without a father?  I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about our culture. 

[Ting Tang]

3 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Nobody gives a rat's butt about beliefs that are not backed up by science.

You know what helps crime reduction?

Caring communities

Mental health access

Socialized medicine

Living wages

Policies meant to enhance life

 

You know what doesn't help?

Deciding that a 2 parent family is demanded, looking down on those who don't have one, and NOT providing the community support necessary for family units of all kinds to flourish.  This is utter nonsensical claptrap.

 

Um, I think many people do "give a rat's butt."   This man was asked what single thing could make a difference in his community. It makes sense that pooling resources (whether that is money or time) makes a situation better for a child.  You can read lots of articles on it, too.

Of course, all the rest is important, too.  

[Spy Car]

17 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This is a rabbit trail... re: other kinds of violence, gun violence, drugs, etc.

I think many problems could be prevented if more children had two parents versus one.  And I don't mean two crazy dysfunctional parents like the parade shooter the last 4th of July.

But it's almost taboo to even mention that idea.  Why can't we talk about that--why can't our politicians and leaders promote that?   Why is it so bad to say that?  

I was watching a video on YouTube yesterday, and a male nonprofit worker said that he truly believes that equal time parenting laws, child support modifications, and incarceration policies (locking people up a long time for petty crimes) were made/changed, that would help the crime in his city.  He said kids need fathers.

 

 

 

The young man who killed four students at Oxford High School in Michigan has two parents. Parents who refused to get him the much needed mental health support that he clearly needed, and parents who instead bought him the gun that he used to commit these murders.

These parents are likely to end up in prison for their role in this tragedy.

It is the values that are out of whack.

Bill

 

[Vintage81]

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, I don't know if that is true. I think it is deeper than that. Between WWI and WWII, Europe endured an awful lot of homes without fathers, dads who didn't come home, in the millions. It didn't raise violence levels and crime subsequently. 2.5 million lost their dads in Germany alone. The US lost 180,000 fathers. There has been no correlation or hint of causation that these fatherless kids were more prone to crime and violence.

It is easy to blame that. But the reality is there is something bizarrely wrong with the American psyche in the last 30 years.

I personally believe we are a culture obsessed with violence as a means of airing grievances, an abnormal fascination and hero worship of violent people. However, that's only one facet of the problem.

I don’t know how much this has been studied, but there are some theories that there was a correlation between the serial killers that became prevalent in the ‘70s and ‘80s and veterans of WWII. Here’s an article talking about it…

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45324622

I think you’re talking about Europe(?) and this was in the US, but it’s an interesting theory. 

[Ting Tang]

Just now, Spy Car said:

The young man who killed four students at Oxford High School in Michigan has two parents. Parents who refused to get him the much needed mental health support that he clearly needed, and parents who instead bought him the gun that he used to commit these murders.

These parents are likely to end up in prison for their role in this tragedy.

It is the values that are out of whack.

Bill

 

Yes, I was thinking more about other types of violence. It just seems sensible.  

Mass shooters like these seem to be different.  They almost seem like the same person.  Active on weird forums, take selfies with their weapons, etc.  Their families are broken in different ways. Nurture over dysfunction always win.  

[HomeAgain]

5 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Um, I think many people do "give a rat's butt."   This man was asked what single thing could make a difference in his community. It makes sense that pooling resources (whether that is money or time) makes a situation better for a child.  You can read lots of articles on it, too.

Of course, all the rest is important, too.  

You are deciding that a side effect (stable families) of a stable community with resources put back into the community is the catalyst of stable mental health. 

Claptrap.  It's absolutely ridiculous that that has to be explained, but the necessity of it shows the state that we are living in, in which logic is twisted to project what you want it to say. 

What next?  Not allowing divorce?  Forcing parents to stay together because obviously the nature of their tumultuous relationship will propel their children to be mentally stable adults?

Now I see how some of these other laws got passed.  The lack of consideration for community needs so that everyone is supported is bypassed for some creative idealism.

I am honestly angry here.  I am angry that people can reduce the screams of the tormented to "well, if the shooter just had parents who were married and together this wouldn't have happened."

[Eos]

2 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes, I was thinking more about other types of violence. It just seems sensible.  

Mass shooters like these seem to be different.  They almost seem like the same person.  Active on weird forums, take selfies with their weapons, etc.  Their families are broken in different ways. Nurture over dysfunction always win.  

The connecting thread seems to be military-grade assault weapons.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

 

I’m not seeing any discussion of the shooter having  attended the school under a pastor who was eventually excommunicated for abusing children over the course of many years.  We keep talking about how improvements to mental health care are needed, and this is a component of that.  As a society we sweep child abuse under the rug too often and too easily if the abuser is in a position of any sort of power.  It’s not excusing the shooter, obviously, but we have to take protecting children in all situations more seriously.  
 

(I’m sorry if this is insensitive to the forum member who is part of the church). 

The vast majority of people who are abused as children do not end up as mass murderers who can wake up one day and go and shoot nine year old children and their teachers dead. 

Other countries also have comparable rates and instances of child abuse. Mass shootings are very, very rare.

Child abuse is its own evil, and it is separate from mass murder.

Mass murderers, unless found not guilty by reason of insanity, are 100% responsible for their choices, regardless of their own suffering.

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ting Tang said:

Yes, I was thinking more about other types of violence. It just seems sensible.  

Mass shooters like these seem to be different.  They almost seem like the same person.  Active on weird forums, take selfies with their weapons, etc.  Their families are broken in different ways. Nurture over dysfunction always win.  

I won't violate the board rules by posting images of Christmas cards featuring politicians, their spouses, and their children all posing around their trees brandishing automatic rifles, but it would not be a remotely difficult task.

Things are broken. Time for some accountability, methinks.

Bill

 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

We have a well established body of literature pointing to assault rifles and high capacity magazines being the problem; honestly, we would be well served to look at graphs and studies instead of listening to people wag on about lack of morals and “not knowing”. We know. We just need to DO. And until we DO this insanity is going to continue to worsen.

[Melissa Louise]

I want to comment on the craziness of seeing that by page 3, the discussion is about fathers in the home and 'its not about the guns'. I want to do it without getting outraged.

So what I want to observe is that for the conversation to veer in this way (it's the dads, it's the child abuse, it's the teachers who just need to be armed, it's moral values, it's a community under fire politically) is just so sad to watch, as an outsider, because it seems more self-protective than anything else.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to protect themselves, psychologically, from what seaconquest detailed so carefully in her post. It's human nature to look for ways to try to control the uncontrollable.

I do wonder - and this is not specific to your terrible situation, but to many different terrible situations - the role that radical acceptance might play. That for, whatever reason (and I'd argue it's pretty clear), a nation is burdened in this truly terrible way.

I think - when I hear about arming teachers - that the level of psychological desensitization must be huge. The true terror obscured. It's almost impossible for me to understand how it can even be considered, knowing what I know about how schools function and students function in places where mass gun murder is rare.  You cannot educate a new generation properly under these conditions of vigilance and fear.

I wonder if that could be accepted, somehow, the brokeness* that some posters have mentioned, if that might be ground to come back from.

*every nation broken in its own way, no judgement.

[Heartstrings]

25 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The vast majority of people who are abused as children do not end up as mass murderers who can wake up one day and go and shoot nine year old children and their teachers dead. 

Other countries also have comparable rates and instances of child abuse. Mass shootings are very, very rare.

Child abuse is its own evil, and it is separate from mass murder.

Mass murderers, unless found not guilty by reason of insanity, are 100% responsible for their choices, regardless of their own suffering.

 

 

 

 

Of course, but if we’re looking at the issues in society that are leading to all this brokenness, the number of children being sexually abused, with little to no consequences for the perpetrators has to be looked at. All of the recent information coming out of the different churches and other organizations, the SBC, Boy Scouts and several others, show that the shear number of abused children is larger than most previously knew.  
 

While the overwhelming majority of abused children turn out to be productive members of society, the proportion of criminals with some sort of SA in their background is pretty large and I don’t think we should discount that.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Vintage81]

38 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We have a well established body of literature pointing to assault rifles and high capacity magazines being the problem; honestly, we would be well served to look at graphs and studies instead of listening to people wag on about lack of morals and “not knowing”. We know. We just need to DO. And until we DO this insanity is going to continue to worsen.

Do you have the stats on this, because the last time I did any reading up on this handguns were the most commonly used firearm in mass shootings? 

ETA...First, I hope my questions doesn't sound snarky!! It was not meant to. I agree that data is good, and I was curious what you were looking at. Here is a website I found with some data...

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

It is referring to all gun murders, not just mass shootings, but handguns account for 59% of the murders while rifles were used in 3%. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Vintage81

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Of course, but if we’re looking at the issues in society that are leading to all this, the number of children being sexually abused, with little to no consequences for the perpetrators has to be looked at. All of the recent information coming out of the different churches, tbe SBC and several others, show that the shear number abused children is larger than most previously knew.  
 

While the overwhelming majority of abused children turn out to be productive members of society, the proportion of criminals with some sort of SA in their background is pretty large and I don’t think we should discount that.  

The problem with this reasoning is that things like child abuse happen IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

But mass murders in schools multiple times every year do not happen in any country except the United States.

What, Heartstrings, do you propose as the reason our country is so exceptional in this regard?

[Murphy101]

7 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

The measures I’m in favor of probably would do little to stop mass shootings. Mandatory finger print locks on all weapons, no constitutional carry, full background checks and wait periods. Insurance and licenses similar to cars, required fingerprint safes.  I live in a state with reasonable gun control rules and no open carry—and we are gun owners. To get a concealed carry permit you need to have five written references, a full background check including mental health, and then the county judge signs off on the permit. No one can wake up one day with no weapons and legally have one by nightfall.

But.
I also treat plenty of patients with gun shot wounds and none of those are from legally owned weapons.  People who are criminals or sovereign citizen types are always going to find a way to gain access to weapons, including assault rifles.

The mental health part is just as dicy. Are we willing to remove children from parents we deem to believe and teach dangerous things? Force mental health treatment and medication? Permanently hospitalize people with mental health that is resistant to treatment?  
 

The truth is that simply because we can’t fully solve the problem or come up with one solution doesn’t mean that we can’t do anything.  There are reasonable and common sense ways to make society safer.

I think many of your suggestions would do more than you think. For one thing, we know for a fact clinically that depressed and psychotic people struggle with over coming simple obstacles. Like it could be they just. Can’t. Get. The. Dishes. Done. But also that means very simple obstacles to other ideations they might be having can work to slow them down or completely stop them. It’s one reason I’m a huge fan of mandating gun safes and wait periods. Is it perfect to stop them all? Of course not. But I think there’s plenty of psychological data to suggest it will stop many. Be it legally or criminally. Yes criminal are going to commit crimes - but it’s harder for them. And most people do not commit crimes.

5 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, and also, why do shooting happen in schools?  Because they are sitting ducks.  Obs.

There’s actually more to that.  Have you ever noticed how much people hate someone who is the opposite of themselves?  It happens all the time. A person who has decided they hate life and it’s all hopeless and they hate everyone and want everyone to know their pain - finds themselves in a red rage haze seeing children and seeing adults finding hope in those children. 

4 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What we need is to prevent the unthinkable from being thinkable.  

We ALWAYS had a ton ton of guns in this country.  

What has changed?  It’s not that.  There is something else.  I don’t know what, although I do have a couple of theories.  But until we figure that out and get on it, we are not going to be effective in prevention.

Actually we have not always had a ton of guns that can shoot mass bullets available to anyone off the street.

We did not grow up in any state where people felt a need to conceal carry because they were actively worried about getting in a shoot out at the grocery store or church.

4 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.  Fighting about gun laws has been done to death.  What other things do you think are leading to this phenomena and what do you think we could do to fix them.  I  think social stuff that leaves the government out of it is more within our control as lay people.  

A lack of family and medical care compounded with debt and feeling they can’t change their situation. 

3 hours ago, Katy said:

I have said for 20 years. Unless it’s a court house, any place that needs metal detectors, clear backpacks, ID tracking badges, and armed security is no place we should send children at all and absolutely no place they should spend 6-8 hours a day.  There is no way to keep that environment from becoming a prison pipeline imo. 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

What a privilege to be able to talk about moving to a safer country.

School shootings aside, the vast majority of gun crimes in the US occur in areas of poverty, and any country with poverty that is comparable to those areas has at least as much violence, if not more ... even where the gun laws on the books appear strict.  Nobody's clamoring to move to those countries to feel safer.

There's no scientifically proven correlation between legal gun ownership and murder.

wait. I need to go search but that’s not entirely accurate iirc.  There’s a lot of legal guns out there used for illegal things. A simple example off the top of my head is how many kids end up dead because they used a legally owned gun of a parent. And then there’s domestic violence, which is often a legally owned guns

[Katy]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

• I don't know about digital nomad visas, but here is the list of all the ICT jobs that NZ is desperate for. This is a national shortage, there are also regional shortages. As you can see, it is a pretty big list. My dh is in ICT, and when he interviews, he is the ONLY person they are considering.  There is just no one here who can do the work.
•  
• 

Thanks. DH is on the list but he doesn’t want to leave his current company until he reaches the number of years or pay grade that would make him fully vested in the stocks & retirement package. 

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, maize said:

What, Heartstrings, do you propose as the reason our country is so exceptional in this regard?

Hey, I’m on your side in all this.  I just don’t see what good it does to drone on about it over and over again.  We’ve sorted the gun problem, here on this forum.  We know it’s the guns, we know there are common sense measures we could take.  We figured all that out several shootings ago.  But Congress didn’t listen to us, neither did state legislators.   I guess I missed the part where if we all here just keep going on about it it will get fixed.  
 

If I click my heels together and say “it’s the guns, it’s the guns, it’s the stupid guns” does that fix it?   

Edited March 28, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SeaConquest]

34 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I won't violate the board rules by posting images of Christmas cards featuring politicians, their spouses, and their children all posing around their trees brandishing automatic rifles, but it would not be a remotely difficult task.

Things are broken. Time for some accountability, methinks.

Bill

 

 

 

I posted precisely that yesterday, not realizing it was against board rules. You can see the representative from the district where this occurred posing with his family, all brandishing assault weapons. It is deeply disturbing how gun culture is normalized and how many children are being groomed to believe that, not only is this normal, but it is good/right/just/G-d's will. At the same time, the social determinants of health are demonized as some sort of government intrusion. Is it any wonder that violence seems the only answer to so many desperate folks? 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

I posted precisely that yesterday, not realizing it was against board rules. You can see the representative from the district where this occurred posing with his family, all brandishing assault weapons. It is deeply disturbing how gun culture is normalized and how many children are being groomed to believe that, not only is this normal, but it is good/right/just/G-d's will. At the same time, the social determinants of health are demonized as some sort of government intrusion. Is it any wonder that violence seems the only answer to so many desperate folks? 

I missed seeing your post, but thank you for connecting the dots.

Bill

[Heartstrings]

18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

lack of family and medical care compounded with debt and feeling they can’t change their situation

This is also a somewhat unique factor in American life.   Medical care is hard to access and leads to crippling debt once accessed.  Mental healthcare especially.  We have very minimal social safety nets compared to other developed countries.  That all leads to a sense of overall despair that I would guess is less common elsewhere in the world. 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Grace Hopper]

10 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I posted precisely that yesterday, not realizing it was against board rules. You can see the representative from the district where this occurred posing with his family, all brandishing assault weapons. It is deeply disturbing how gun culture is normalized and how many children are being groomed to believe that, not only is this normal, but it is good/right/just/G-d's will. At the same time, the social determinants of health are demonized as some sort of government intrusion. Is it any wonder that violence seems the only answer to so many desperate folks? 

 

7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I missed seeing your post, but thank you for connecting the dots.

Bill

It was posted in the politics group yesterday. He’s only one of the dots. 
 

11 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Hey, I’m on your side in all this.  I just don’t see what good it does to drone on about it over and over again.  We’ve sorted the gun problem, here on this forum.  We know it’s the guns, we know there are common sense measures we could take.  We figured all that out several shootings ago.  But Congress didn’t listen to us, neither did state legislators.   I guess I missed the part where if we all here just keep going on about it it will get fixed.  
 

If I click my heels together and say “it’s the guns, it’s the guns, it’s the stupid guns” does that fix it?   

Quoting Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN) on school shootings yesterday:

"We're not gonna fix it."

The gist of his further statement is criminals are gonna crime.
 

It is very hard to have this conversation apart from talking politics. But this statement, and the Christmas cards, and the lapel pins - disgusting lack of concern on display to the world. 

[prairiewindmomma]

12 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

Do you have the stats on this, because the last time I did any reading up on this handguns were the most commonly used firearm in mass shootings? 

Handguns are commonly used, but the handguns used have higher capacity magazines. This is why I stated that assault weapons and higher capacity magazines are to blame. They allow shooters to shoot more people in a short period of time. Statistics re: increasing death toll associated with higher capacity weapons: https://www.bradyunited.org/fact-sheets/what-are-assault-weapons-and-high-capacity-magazines

Also, and I am going to try to state this delicately, but as someone who has looked at crime scene photos professionally….the types of bullets matter. We have largely been screened by the media from photos of what AR-15s do to bodies. But, when they talk about having to identify victims by DNA, as with Uvalde, they aren’t kidding. The shots are simply unsurvivable. I don’t know that the average person really understands that (or has had the nausea from seeing the destruction that happens). If you hit me with a bullet that leaves me a half inch gap in my torso and a three inch gap in my back, I will likely bleed out slowly enough, if I am lucky where it hit, that I will survive that. If I am in literal chunks after your bullet hits me, I will not.

My concern is survivability. Banning assault weapons and limiting magazine capacity increases survivability.

A similar thought exercise would be comparing mass violence in the US with, say, Britain. Britain has similar mental illness rates, but a lot of their violence happens with knives. People simply have a greater chance of survival—fewer people can be attacked and the damage is more survivable.

[Spy Car]

Just now, Grace Hopper said:

 

It was posted in the politics group yesterday. He’s only one of the dots. 
 

Only one, indeed. One could assemble a collection of such imagery.

Unfortunately.

Bill

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I wonder if that could be accepted, somehow, the brokeness* that some posters have mentioned, if that might be ground to come back from.

The problem with trying to get America to recognize its brokenness is that the brokenness is intentional. Creating a broken, fearful, angry populace who blame minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ, muslims, jews, young people, members of other political parties, etc., for everything wrong with their lives keeps them from turning against the people in power who are depriving them of basic rights, like healthcare and education and worker protections, that citizens of every other developed country take for granted. 

Every mass shooting increases fear and anger and leads to more people buying more guns, to protect themselves against random shooters, instead of focusing those who purposely use the chaos to increase their own power and wealth while 8000 children a year are victims of gun violence, women die in childbirth at inexcusable rates, people lose their homes (and sometimes their lives) because of the insane cost of medical care, and 40 million people live in poverty in the richest country in the world. The end goal isn't a cure for the brokenness; the end goal is using the brokenness to justify fascism. And I'm afraid we are getting perilously close to that.

[prairiewindmomma]

The technical term, if you want to Google more on the difference in damage caused by the higher velocity bullets, is “cavitation”. YouTube used to carry videos of examples with ballistic gel. It’s not exactly the same, because human bodies will actually kind of liquify inside with cavitation. 
 

ETA: to clarify, when I say higher velocity here, I mean assault style weapons. The bullets hit with higher velocity. 
 

I still think larger magazines with handguns are a problem also. If I can send out 30 bullets per magazine versus 6-10 before changing clips, my initial burst of shooting is more likely to hit more people. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Heartstrings]

22 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Quoting Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN) on school shootings yesterday:

"We're not gonna fix it."

The gist of his further statement is criminals are gonna crime.
 

It is very hard to have this conversation apart from talking politics. But this statement, and the Christmas cards, and the lapel pins - disgusting lack of concern on display to the world. 

 Most of the populace agree on some form of reform.  The issue is the politicians DONT CARE.   They know they can stir up other issues to divert attention, they know the NRA and gun manufacturers are the ones writing checks, not John Q. Public.  On both sides they know they can use counter partisanship to get us to vote by party not issue. 
 

It won’t change because the money is ALL on the side of not fixing it.  A shooting happens and gun sales go up, ammo sales go up, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn see traffic increase as half the countries tries to find the profiles of the shooter, donations to BOTH parties go up, news sites get increased traffic. Too many people are profiting off of this.  
 

Also, I’m pretty sure the money in politics issue is pretty unique to America, is that right? Are we the only “advanced” country where something like the NRA could write a huge check to a senator?  
 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Heartstrings

[catz]

My apologies if this has been posted, but the Washington Post before the event yesterday (unrelated) posted an article with 3D imagery about how AR-15 work and why they are so destructive and hard to survive wounds from.  This is very graphic and made me cry (reference to real victims), so be forewarned.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-damage-to-human-body/

[Vintage81]

18 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Handguns are commonly used, but the handguns used have higher capacity magazines. This is why I stated that assault weapons and higher capacity magazines are to blame. They allow shooters to shoot more people in a short period of time. Statistics re: increasing death toll associated with higher capacity weapons: https://www.bradyunited.org/fact-sheets/what-are-assault-weapons-and-high-capacity-magazines

Also, and I am going to try to state this delicately, but as someone who has looked at crime scene photos professionally….the types of bullets matter. We have largely been screened by the media from photos of what AR-15s do to bodies. But, when they talk about having to identify victims by DNA, as with Uvalde, they aren’t kidding. The shots are simply unsurvivable. I don’t know that the average person really understands that (or has had the nausea from seeing the destruction that happens). If you hit me with a bullet that leaves me a half inch gap in my torso and a three inch gap in my back, I will likely bleed out slowly enough, if I am lucky where it hit, that I will survive that. If I am in literal chunks after your bullet hits me, I will not.

My concern is survivability. Banning assault weapons and limiting magazine capacity increases survivability.

A similar thought exercise would be comparing mass violence in the US with, say, Britain. Britain has similar mental illness rates, but a lot of their violence happens with knives. People simply have a greater chance of survival—fewer people can be attacked and the damage is more survivable.

Thanks for more information....my original question was because in your original post you said "assault rifles" not "assault weapons"  - which is why I asked my question because most firearm crimes are committed by handguns, not rifles. (I updated my post to include additional information/stats). If you're putting handguns into the category of "assault weapon" then I understand what you're saying.

Also, regarding the bullets...I'm very sorry that you've had to see such horrific crime scene photos. That's truly awful. I'm in no way disputing that different caliber bullets do different damage. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

The young man who killed four students at Oxford High School in Michigan has two parents. Parents who refused to get him the much needed mental health support that he clearly needed, and parents who instead bought him the gun that he used to commit these murders.

These parents are likely to end up in prison for their role in this tragedy.

It is the values that are out of whack.

Bill

 

Thank you for saying it. This school district is only about 60 minutes away, the furthest reaches just bordering the district just south of my county. I have friends who have children in that school. I was having a hard time articulating what needed to convey without the emotion so I didn't post. I appreciate you vocalizing what I could not.

 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

This is a rabbit trail... re: other kinds of violence, gun violence, drugs, etc.

I think many problems could be prevented if more children had two parents versus one.  And I don't mean two crazy dysfunctional parents like the parade shooter the last 4th of July.

But it's almost taboo to even mention that idea.  Why can't we talk about that--why can't our politicians and leaders promote that?   Why is it so bad to say that?  

I was watching a video on YouTube yesterday, and a male nonprofit worker said that he truly believes that equal time parenting laws, child support modifications, and incarceration policies (locking people up a long time for petty crimes) were made/changed, that would help the crime in his city.  He said kids need fathers.

Well I don't know how you enforce a "kids must have a dad" rule.  Says a single mom.  🙂

I am not sure I agree that letting felons out of prison so they can influence their kids more will lead to better choices made by said kids.  And then there are the various non-incarcerated rapists, wife abusers, child abusers, narcissists, cheaters, liars, etc. that are not with their kids for good reason.

I mean, most kids do in fact have two parents, but sometimes one of them isn't an appropriate mentor.

I mean it's an easy thing to say, especially if you're a married parent in a functional household.  It's also a popular thing to say.  And I would never dis valuable dad time.  But I'm just not sure how helpful it is to allege that kids without dads are on a bad path.  (We already know this is an "at risk" category, and we have programs like mentorships etc. to try to address that.)

Not sure what "equal time parenting laws" are.  Do you mean 50/50 child custody?  Or equal parental leave policies (which wouldn't help much in low-income communities since many people don't qualify for paid time off at their jobs)?  Or something else?

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The problem with trying to get America to recognize its brokenness is that the brokenness is intentional. Creating a broken, fearful, angry populace who blame minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ, muslims, jews, young people, members of other political parties, etc., for everything wrong with their lives keeps them from turning against the people in power who are depriving them of basic rights, like healthcare and education and worker protections, that citizens of every other developed country take for granted. 

Every mass shooting increases fear and anger and leads to more people buying more guns, to protect themselves against random shooters, instead of focusing those who purposely use the chaos to increase their own power and wealth while 8000 children a year are victims of gun violence, women die in childbirth at inexcusable rates, people lose their homes (and sometimes their lives) because of the insane cost of medical care, and 40 million people live in poverty in the richest country in the world. The end goal isn't a cure for the brokenness; the end goal is using the brokenness to justify fascism. And I'm afraid we are getting perilously close to that.

You are 100% spot on.

[bibiche]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes, I was thinking more about other types of violence. It just seems sensible.  

Do elaborate.

[bookbard]

Honestly I think what people in the USA (and UK) need to start working for is a change from 'first past the post' voting to a version of preferential voting. This means instead of being stuck between 2 choices, you can bring in more options and have more diversity. It decreases the power of a single group, and means negotiation has to happen for things to occur. 

 

 

[SKL]

Well and mental illness is often passed genetically.  Is it always better to both inherit those genes AND live with the person who passed them down to you?

And the thing about child sexual abuse.  I don't deny that it happens, but alleging it is also a common tactic used to try to mitigate the consequences of a horrible, horrible choice.  I don't think we need to believe every word spoken by accused murderers.

And true that it's far from a recent phenomenon.  If anything, I would guess that there is a lot less child abuse today (of all kinds) than there was at any time in "civilized" history.  It just wasn't always called abuse.

When I was in college, I had to read a book called the Satyricon, which was written in the 1st century AD.  Not only was child sexual abuse part of the story, but it was supposed to be funny.

Edited March 28, 2023 by SKL

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, maize said:

What, Heartstrings, do you propose as the reason our country is so exceptional in this regard?

So far in this thread I’ve also identified that America is unique in having...

-less social infrastructure that leads to a unique form of American despair, especially in young people. 

-more money in politics that make our politicians less responsive to the desires of the population. (Something like 80% of the country agrees on some basic gun restrictions)  

in ADDITION to the guns.  It’s the guns.  It’s the guns.  It’s the guns.  
 

But also, some other stuff isn’t helping.  Some other stuff that is also unique to America, at least compared to what we consider our peer nations.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Honestly I think what people in the USA (and UK) need to start working for is a change from 'first past the post' voting to a version of preferential voting. This means instead of being stuck between 2 choices, you can bring in more options and have more diversity. It decreases the power of a single group, and means negotiation has to happen for things to occur. 

 

 

Some places are experimenting with Open Primaries and Ranked Choice Voting.  It’s slow, but exciting to watch.  

[AnotherNewName]

3 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

YES!

The general public might have a wonky read on the right to bear arms, but nowhere does it say they have to be provided with commercially made ammunition for the weapon.

Except the courts would disagree.

Do you think the right to have a free press exists, but that the government could tax ink (or something else key in publication) in an open effort to minimize the ability to exercise that right? Taxes as a rule cannot be used to restrict noneconomic behavior and specifically not to limit exercising a right (think Poll Tax).

 

[prairiewindmomma]

After Heller, McDonald v. Chicago, and Bruen, a lot of states who want to create and enforce local legislation have been hemmed in by the recent configuration of the Supreme Court. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Thank you for saying it. This school district is only about 60 minutes away, the furthest reaches just bordering the district just south of my county. I have friends who have children in that school. I was having a hard time articulating what needed to convey without the emotion so I didn't post. I appreciate you vocalizing what I could not.

 

I'm very sorry Faith.

And I may not be quite as composed on the inside as my posts suggest.

I almost bawled earlier, when I saw a photo of a young woman (high schooler?) whose eyes looked hollowed out from the grief that was all over her face.

She was hold a sign that (from best memory) read, "If I'm a victim of a mass shooting, please lay my body on the steps of Congress."

I lost my composure.

Bill

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Spy Car