Heartbreaking lack of humanity in Knoxville; woman dies after hospital refused to let her stay and police arrest her for trespassing

[katilac]

I hope the hospital gets sued to infinity and I hope the police officers see the other side of getting arrested. This poor woman didn't want to leave the hospital because she knew something was wrong, the police show up and act like absolute trash human beings, she says she can't breathe, she says she's dying, and they tell her she's faking up until the moment she dies. No, an officer was actually asking if she was faking it after he found her dead in the back of his cruiser. so they didn't believe her until she was good and dead. 

What is wrong with people? This lady had a previous stroke, she was obviously physical disabled, and to me it's clear that she is in genuine distress. But I don't care if you believe her or not, what purpose does it serve to be so ugly and treat her so poorly? 

Part of KPD's mission statement: Committed to serving the needs of the public in a compassionate and impartial fashion.

Strong trigger warning for both the audio and video of the body cam footage (and I guess these idiots forgot their body cams were on). 

 Knoxville police forget their motto

Edited to fix link. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by katilac

[Faith-manor]

I truly believe that when SCOTUS ruled that the police have no obligation to protect or serve, they took that to mean they should NOT protect or serve. Oaths became worthless. 

[katilac]

If anyone else would like to make sure Knoxville knows the world is watching their response: 

Mayor Indya Kincannon, mayor@knoxvilletn.gov 

Police Chief, Paul Noel (865) 215-7000 (can't find an email)

[Storygirl]

For me, your link just brings me back to your post here.

So I looked it up elsewhere. It seems to me that the hospital is at fault for not listening when she told them she needed medical assistance. I agree that the officers should have listened to her.

[desertflower]

Horrible.  Just horrible.

[katilac]

35 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

For me, your link just brings me back to your post here.

So I looked it up elsewhere. It seems to me that the hospital is at fault for not listening when she told them she needed medical assistance. I agree that the officers should have listened to her.

The officers should have listened to her, and the officers should not have mocked her, and the officers should not have handled her roughly, and the officers should not have lacked the basic human decency to help her sit up properly. 

The officers should not have such short memories that they ignore a person in their custody saying I can't breathe, I can't breathe 

The officers should not have left her unattended and locked in the backseat of a cruiser while they helped a motorist. 

Upon finding her dead, the officers should not have yanked her head up by her hair and wondered if she was still faking it. 

The hospital is of course at fault, and I said that. 

Their fault does not diminish the fault of the officers for being garbage human beings, and for creating extreme and unnecessary stress that may have caused her deadly stroke. 

 

[happi duck]

I couldn't bring myself to watch. I just read the description above.

Absolute nightmare!  I wish it were unbelievable *crying*

How can people be such jerks?!?!??  Absolutely no decency whatsoever.

 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

For me, your link just brings me back to your post here.

Thanks, I fixed it. 

[Faith-manor]

I think one of the deepest, most disturbing undercurrents we have in our culture is "othering", and othering seems to produce a hierarchy/caste mentality. Combine that with authority/power and the lethality is off the charts.

[MercyA]

Disgusting and heartbreaking. Couldn't watch it. 😢

I predict there will STILL be people defending the police in the case as in others.

Edited February 27, 2023 by MercyA

[happi duck]

8 hours ago, MercyA said:

Disgusting and heartbreaking. Couldn't watch it. 😢

I predict there will STILL be people defending the police in the case as in others.

I agree

[Farrar]

Gee, if only society had funded the hospital with adequate staffing to see to her needs instead of police to haul her out. I wonder where we should be spending our money.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Farrar

[SHP]

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

Gee, if only society had funded the hospital with adequate staffing to see to her needs instead of police to haul her out. I wonder where we should be spending our money.

This. Though I am not confident funding is the answer.

Not honoring the oath to do "Do no harm" is also a huge problem and I doubt throwing money without increased legislation requiring a change in how ER's operate will solve it.

 

 

[Scarlett]

I can’t bear to watch the video….can someone tell me why the hospital called the police on her in the first place?

[Farrar]

5 hours ago, SHP said:

This. Though I am not confident funding is the answer.

Not honoring the oath to do "Do no harm" is also a huge problem and I doubt throwing money without increased legislation requiring a change in how ER's operate will solve it.

 

 

I definitely don’t think shifting funding will fix everything, but I’m wary of the idea that it was an ethical failure on the part of healthcare in a case like this. Healthcare is so broken in the US and a lot of that is about how we pay and staff. It’s systemic and healthcare workers are at their absolute limit. I don’t want to pin this on them as individuals. The system is making it hard for them to spend time with people to provide the care they deserve.

[cbollin]

.

Edited March 1, 2023 by cbollin

[cbollin]

25 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I definitely don’t think shifting funding will fix everything, but I’m wary of the idea that it was an ethical failure on the part of healthcare in a case like this. Healthcare is so broken in the US and a lot of that is about how we pay and staff. It’s systemic and healthcare workers are at their absolute limit. I don’t want to pin this on them as individuals. The system is making it hard for them to spend time with people to provide the care they deserve.

agreeing.

that's how I felt too. Not so much the individual doctors and medical people in this case at 3 locations (nursing home, and two hospitals).  But overall everyone is at their limit and couldnt' do it.  My own recent emergency visits with chest  pains showed me the system is overwhelmed. and people left during covid, etc.....

that's the sad, heartbreaking side of all of this topic.

[Harriet Vane]

@cbollin Thank you for offering your detailed perspective. 

I have not watched the video.

But after reading Cbollin's post, I wonder more now about the original failure of the health system. I remember a friend of mine had a migraseizure (a seizure that sparked or coincided with the sudden onset of a migraine). This resulted in vomiting, vertigo, confusion, and severely distorted speech. It seriously really looked like a stroke. She could not speak clearly AT ALL and she could not walk a straight line. My friend is very poor with a low IQ and mental illness. The hospital did a cursory evaluation, found no evidence of stroke or heart attack, and discharged her. 

The hospital discharged my friend when she could not walk a straight line and could not speak. They would not even help her get a cab. (!!!) She was discharged and that was that. 

It took more than a week to get my friend actual medical care. Her primary care doctor would not see her and directed her to go to the ER if she felt it was an emergency. The ER would not see her because no stroke, no heart attack YET she was still presenting with severe symptoms. 

I live in a different state from my friend and was not able to drop everything to go help her. Basically, I called other mutual friends and various people tried helping her access services to no avail. More than a week after the initial event, a mutual friend personally drove my suffering friend to the ER again and basically was loud and insistent and persistent that they figure out something to help. It took the actual physical presence of a stubborn, insistent, obviously-middle-class advocate to personally convince the system to evaluate the presenting symptoms thoroughly. This was how my friend was finally connected with a neurologist and given actual medical care. 

😪

[Clemsondana]

26 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

. 

I live in a different state from my friend and was not able to drop everything to go help her. Basically, I called other mutual friends and various people tried helping her access services to no avail. More than a week after the initial event, a mutual friend personally drove my suffering friend to the ER again and basically was loud and insistent and persistent that they figure out something to help. It took the actual physical presence of a stubborn, insistent, obviously-middle-class advocate to personally convince the system to evaluate the presenting symptoms thoroughly. This was how my friend was finally connected with a neurologist and given actual medical care. 

😪

Several years ago, a friend went to the ER with her in-laws, having observed that the FIL was having a stroke.  She said that they sat in the ER under a sign that said 'Be aware of these signs of stroke' being told that FIL was fine.  Friend, who was working as a physical therapist at the time, said that she kept having to say 'He has every symptom on this list.  He is having a stroke!'.  Eventually the hospital agreed.  

There are amazing medical professionals who are highly competent and dedicated.  But, I can also cite a list of medical mistakes that were caught by patients and families that I personally know.  And, there are hard situations where the patient knows that something is off but there isn't much that can be detected by medical tests until the patient is in a crisis and there is more information to work from.  It is hard, even for people who are very 'with it' in everyday life, to know how to advocate for themselves in the confusion of a medical situation.  For those who aren't...we are trying to help some elderly, confused relatives dealing with some health problems and it's not easy.  

[Farrar]

@cbollin Thank you for that excellent breakdown. I had only seen very brief moments in a summary report.

I do see moments there in your description where it seems like the police behaved inappropriately, but in the end, it sounds right that they were not charged. They were asked to do something they should never have been asked to do. It should not be their job. Even if she had been faking it, this should not have been the job of police. It was wrong to place this burden on cops. It's simply not what they're trained for. American cities and states keep giving more money to the police and less money to healthcare, social workers, and other core societal structures. Social workers and healthcare workers - and further back in time up the chain, housing, education, food, and more quality healthcare - are what could have possibly prevented her death at this moment or at least given her a better death.

So I do see this as partly the fault of how we police. Even when it's a situation like Tyre Nichols or George Floyd or... the list goes on and on and on. But even when there are individual officers who should shoulder part of the blame, part of the underlying problem is the system - sending police to meet low level drug crimes with violence, sending the police to check on people for loitering, sending police to deal with mental illness, or in this case actual physical illness... this is just not their jobs. No wonder they fail.

We've got to move funding to healthcare. We've got to ease the burden on healthcare workers. We've got to change how we deliver healthcare. It's not just money (though that's part of it). We've got to make systemic changes.

[cbollin]

.

Edited March 1, 2023 by cbollin

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, SHP said:

Not honoring the oath to do "Do no harm" is also a huge problem and I doubt throwing money without increased legislation requiring a change in how ER's operate will solve it.

In this case, the ER had her admitted for observation, which means they did their due diligence. You can't admit people willy-nilly. 

I think the real problem is that we have reduced healthcare to a series of gatekeepers, and there is no recourse when you think you're still in need of help after a doctor says no. We need a system in place to help with this because it's a HUGE problem. People can leave AMA, but you can't stay AMA, for lack of a better way to describe it. We had a family member be discharged from the ER after a panel of doctors (resident, two attendings, and at least two specialists consulted) decided he didn't have blood clots. Their evidence was nothing. They didn't do a clotting work (not even blood work) to figure it out. They just...discussed it. DH was present, and he diagnoses blood clots in the ER on the regular. He was very specific about what workup was needed, the family member met established criteria for a workup, and at least five doctors said no. It took a week of beating down doors to get the family member diagnosed and treated. Returning to an ER (the same or a different one) can be perceived either as persistent or annoying--if another ER finds nothing, then the person develops a bit of a reputation. It's terrible.

Doctors at all levels of the system, often for reasons of personal sanity, support some of this gatekeeping (it doesn't have to be a binary choice, sigh). They'd love to get rid of the insurance gatekeeping, but they love the CYA gatekeeping (some of which is NOT even remotely related to evidence-based health but is evidence-based liability stuff). The good ones would love to be able to bring change around the issue of oblivious practitioners who are biased against certain kinds of patients, dialing it in on their way to retirement in a few months, jaded, etc. Those people give them heartburn and worry about lawsuits in their day-to-day jobs too. ER people who do the right thing can end up being sued for the negligence that happened AFTER the patient was admitted. I wish I were kidding.

3 hours ago, cbollin said:

I watched the video.  I've read the news stories on the autopsy.  I've read this thread.  to answer your question, here's the background

She was discharged from a nursing home on Feb. 4 in another state.  Flew into Knoxville. complained of abdominal pains on the flight and was taken from airport to hospital.  Discharged from that first hospital with constipation as diagnosis.  Then, she goes to another hospital.  Is admitted (maybe?) and at least observed overnight.  She is discharged from that hospital on Feb. 5 in morning and refuses to leave hospital property after being discharged.

Thanks for describing all of that because I wasn't going to watch the video either.

This hits too close to home with my family member's blood clots (especially the symptoms over the entire experience, which might not have presented all at the same time, complicating the picture), though this patient at least got admitted before someone screwed it all up. It sounds like the ER did their due diligence. 

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

It took more than a week to get my friend actual medical care. Her primary care doctor would not see her and directed her to go to the ER if she felt it was an emergency. The ER would not see her because no stroke, no heart attack YET she was still presenting with severe symptoms. 

The people within the system don't always know how broken it is. Many are not even aware of how the gatekeeping to see them works, and yet they blindly recommend things like this to remedy a problem with gatekeeping. It's absurd. Our pediatrician is unreachable by phone, but yet he expects us to be able to reach specialists for our son by phone. It's a joke.

The people in the system who do know how bad it is can sometimes find workarounds, but it requires them to stumble onto them first! 

[AmandaVT]

@cbollin thank you for the description! I get too disturbed by videos and do a lot better with written descriptions of things.

One of my friends just had a scary experience where she kept being sent home from the hospital when she went to the ER complaining of severe stomach pain. Eventually, she ended up admitted with a pretty bad diverticulitis attack that needed IV antibiotics, and she's not out of the woods as far as needing surgery. But she was blown off multiple times, even after she shared that she was in severe pain anytime she ate and had lost 10 lbs in less than a month. One of the nurses just told her she needed to lose the weight anyway, so it was a good thing. While she was hospitalized, she said they were only able to check her vitals every 8 hrs or so and she said everyone was lovely, but they seemed incredibly understaffed. Most primary care offices aren't taking new patients around here, and even if you are a current patient, wait times are really long right now to be seen. It's a little scary.

[SKL]

Where I live, there are community numbers you can call to get connected to needed services such as this lady seemed to need.  Hospitals and police should have efficient systems in place to connect people to various human services, such as paratransport, temporary shelter, outpatient services, and so on.

I realize that in this particular case, the lady may have been sicker than the hospital staff thought, but even if she wasn't, she needed someplace to go and some way to get there.  Communities need to have a way to compassionately transition people out of hospital care without just leaving them curbside.  It doesn't mean these people are being discharged healthy.  That simply isn't possible in many cases.

As for the funding issue - the US already has (by far) the highest per capita healthcare spending.  It's not a matter of spending more, it's a matter of structuring things so that reasonable stepped-down services are accessible as needed.  A well-designed system would be more of a shift of costs vs. an added expense.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, AmandaVT said:

One of the nurses just told her she needed to lose the weight anyway, so it was a good thing. 

Sigh. Triage can be fraught. And sometimes by the fourth time someone had told their story (not uncommon while getting worked in), they're shortening it or struggling to describe sometimes vague symptoms yet again.

I can't tell you how many times nurses have "reinterpreted" my symptoms for the doctor, and if I don't see exactly what they wrote down or hear them tell the doctor myself, it can be a game of telephone.

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

I realize that in this particular case, the lady may have been sicker than the hospital staff thought, but even if she wasn't, she needed someplace to go and some way to get there. 

She may have had mental status changes from whatever led to her stroke making her seem less clear/reliable in some ways. It's one of the possibilities with clots or with a variety of other things. 

And no one who is feeling unwell is exempt from potential trouble self-advocating, realizing all the details of what's going on, etc.

And sometimes doctors put pressure on patients instead of getting on the phone with the patient's physician. I had an extended family member be put in a position to choose between potentially not treating a heart attack or damaging his kidneys with the dye needed to do a catheterization (he ended up having a heart attack, but it didn't end up being a blockage, it was one of those unusual Takotsubo episodes that was causing his ischemia). His nephrologist was disgusted when he found out about it. He said, at the very least, that the cardiology and ER doctors should've known your kidneys won't function if the heart is not pumping blood. 🤦‍♀️ And you just don't ask an elderly hard of hearing patient who doesn't feel well and isn't getting oxygen to answer stooopid questions!!!

[Corraleno]

I watched the videos, and the account provided upthread puts the most positive spin on it that I can possibly imagine. It leaves out all the times Lisa Edwards said that she couldn't breathe and was begging "please help me" and saying she was going to die. It left out the cop yelling at her that he just wanted to go get his coffee and oatmeal and not deal with her crap, as she's struggling to breathe and even sit up. She didn't want to leave the hospital because she knew she was seriously unwell and desperately needed help and no one would listen to her. She couldn't stand or walk or catch her breath and her speech was slurred; she told them she was having a stroke and was going to die, and she did.

Here is a breakdown of what happened in the back of the cruiser (time stamps go with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLJIQV1t1DI ):

She gets in the car at the 57 minute mark. The cops are yelling at her to stand up while she says “oh no my legs, oh no my legs!’  They shove her in the car and she repeatedly says “I can’t sit like this, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe.” She is CLEARLY unable to breathe properly and is wheezing very audibly and can barely speak. After a few minutes they finally help her sit up so she can breathe better, but then she falls back down again.

They leave the hospital and she continues to beg the cop to please stop the car and help her sit up, saying over and over that she can’t breathe. He just tells her to sit herself up and she repeatedly says “I can’t” and he repeatedly says “Yes you can,” although she very clearly can't! While she’s wheezing and saying she can't breathe, the cop asks why she peed in his car. This goes on for several minutes, with her moaning and wheezing really loudly, barely able to speak, saying  “Oh my God, oh my God” and “I can’t breathe.” Her breathing is extremely labored and she’s wheezing really loudly. It's really painful to listen to.

At 1:06 she slumps down and you can barely hear her anymore, she is clearly in bad shape. At 1:08 the cop bangs on the divider and asks if she needs help; there’s no response but he keeps driving. By 1:09 there’s no sound or movement from the back seat.

At 1:11 he pulls over another vehicle, and at around 1:13 he finally checks on her and realizes she’s unresponsive. He yells at her several times to sit up and tries to shove her into a sitting position, including pulling her head up by the back of her hair — she is CLEARLY unconscious at this point, her mouth is hanging open and she is totaly unresponsive. He calls dispatch and says “I don’t know if she’s faking it, but she’s not answering me…. I don’t know if she’s faking it or what but she’s not answering.”

He lets go of her, and she falls backwards, totally unconscious and dying at this point, while he says “Hey! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, c'mon!” He appears to be shaking her, but since she's lying in the back seat with her head hanging out the open door, you can't really see what he's doing. Then the video ends.

 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I watched the videos, and the account provided upthread puts the most positive spin on it that I can possibly imagine. It leaves out all the times Lisa Edwards said that she couldn't breathe and was begging "please help me" and saying she was going to die. It left out the cop yelling at her that he just wanted to go get his coffee and oatmeal and not deal with her crap, as she's struggling to breathe and even sit up. She didn't want to leave the hospital because she knew she was seriously unwell and desperately needed help and no one would listen to her. She couldn't stand or walk or catch her breath and her speech was slurred; she told them she was having a stroke and was going to die, and she did.

Here is a breakdown of what happened in the back of the cruiser (time stamps go with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLJIQV1t1DI😞

She gets in the car at the 57 minute mark. The cops are yelling at her to stand up while she says “oh no my legs, oh no my legs!’  They shove her in the car and she repeatedly says “I can’t sit like this, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe.” She is CLEARLY unable to breathe properly and is wheezing very audibly and can barely speak. After a few minutes they finally help her sit up so she can breathe better, but then she falls back down again.

They leave the hospital and she continues to beg the cop to please stop the car and help her sit up, saying over and over that she can’t breathe. He just tells her to sit herself up and she repeatedly says “I can’t” and he repeatedly says “Yes you can,” although she very clearly can't! While she’s wheezing and saying she can't breathe, the cop asks why she peed in his car. This goes on for several minutes, with her moaning and wheezing really loudly, barely able to speak, saying  “Oh my God, oh my God” and “I can’t breathe.” Her breathing is extremely labored and she’s wheezing really loudly. It's really painful to listen to.

At 1:06 she slumps down and you can barely hear her anymore, she is clearly in bad shape. At 1:08 the cop bangs on the divider and asks if she needs help; there’s no response but he keeps driving. By 1:09 there’s no sound or movement from the back seat.

At 1:11 he pulls over another vehicle, and at around 1:13 he finally checks on her and realizes she’s unresponsive. He yells at her several times to sit up and tries to shove her into a sitting position, including pulling her head up by the back of her hair — she is CLEARLY unconscious at this point, her mouth is hanging open and she is totaly unresponsive. He calls dispatch and says “I don’t know if she’s faking it, but she’s not answering me…. I don’t know if she’s faking it or what but she’s not answering.”

He lets go of her, and she falls backwards, totally unconscious and dying at this point, while he says “Hey! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, c'mon!” He appears to be shaking her, but since she's lying in the back seat with her head hanging out the open door, you can't really see what he's doing. Then the video ends.

 

 

 

That.is.depraved.

[MercyA]

That is awful. 😞 

What do you do when you have no one to help you and no one to advocate for you? Something has to change. 

Thanks for the additional information, @Corraleno. That could not have been easy for you to watch.

[Harriet Vane]

Thank you for the additional information, @Corraleno. I couldn't bear to watch it myself, and I appreciate that you did so and reported back here. It looks like every single person failed her. I cannot imagine being alone and literally dying and not being helped. 

[Spryte]

49 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I watched the videos, and the account provided upthread puts the most positive spin on it that I can possibly imagine. It leaves out all the times Lisa Edwards said that she couldn't breathe and was begging "please help me" and saying she was going to die. It left out the cop yelling at her that he just wanted to go get his coffee and oatmeal and not deal with her crap, as she's struggling to breathe and even sit up. She didn't want to leave the hospital because she knew she was seriously unwell and desperately needed help and no one would listen to her. She couldn't stand or walk or catch her breath and her speech was slurred; she told them she was having a stroke and was going to die, and she did.

Here is a breakdown of what happened in the back of the cruiser (time stamps go with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLJIQV1t1DI😞

She gets in the car at the 57 minute mark. The cops are yelling at her to stand up while she says “oh no my legs, oh no my legs!’  They shove her in the car and she repeatedly says “I can’t sit like this, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe.” She is CLEARLY unable to breathe properly and is wheezing very audibly and can barely speak. After a few minutes they finally help her sit up so she can breathe better, but then she falls back down again.

They leave the hospital and she continues to beg the cop to please stop the car and help her sit up, saying over and over that she can’t breathe. He just tells her to sit herself up and she repeatedly says “I can’t” and he repeatedly says “Yes you can,” although she very clearly can't! While she’s wheezing and saying she can't breathe, the cop asks why she peed in his car. This goes on for several minutes, with her moaning and wheezing really loudly, barely able to speak, saying  “Oh my God, oh my God” and “I can’t breathe.” Her breathing is extremely labored and she’s wheezing really loudly. It's really painful to listen to.

At 1:06 she slumps down and you can barely hear her anymore, she is clearly in bad shape. At 1:08 the cop bangs on the divider and asks if she needs help; there’s no response but he keeps driving. By 1:09 there’s no sound or movement from the back seat.

At 1:11 he pulls over another vehicle, and at around 1:13 he finally checks on her and realizes she’s unresponsive. He yells at her several times to sit up and tries to shove her into a sitting position, including pulling her head up by the back of her hair — she is CLEARLY unconscious at this point, her mouth is hanging open and she is totaly unresponsive. He calls dispatch and says “I don’t know if she’s faking it, but she’s not answering me…. I don’t know if she’s faking it or what but she’s not answering.”

He lets go of her, and she falls backwards, totally unconscious and dying at this point, while he says “Hey! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, c'mon!” He appears to be shaking her, but since she's lying in the back seat with her head hanging out the open door, you can't really see what he's doing. Then the video ends.

 

 

 

Thank you for the added details, and for watching and witnessing. That poor woman, to be unable to get help — or even comfort as she died. Heartbreaking.

[Farrar]

That's so terrible. So many people failing this woman on so many levels. I feel like people put god-like trust in healthcare workers. When the healthcare workers say, hey, she's fine, she's faking it, it encourages cops -- who are already trained to treat people like a threat and not a person most of the time -- to ignore any common sense about a person who is literally in their death throes.

[katilac]

I must have watched a different video.  What I saw was failure of health care.  But not of police who are not trained in medical.

I certainly hope you did watch a different video. You do not need to be medically trained in order to not be a garbage human being, and these cops were 100% garbage human beings that day. 

I'm going to include more, but not all, details in this post. Anyone who will be overly upset should skip it. I use quotation marks to help distinguish Mrs. Irwin's dialogue from that of the cops, but it's possible I get some words wrong. And of course it is not the entire video. 

They do not berate her.  

They most certainly do berate her, at various times throughout the video. They  also mock and deride her. 

When she is still near the hospital doors and in a wheelchair, they have this conversation: 

Police: You gotta get gone. 

"I can't even get down there." 

Police: So you're saying you're gonna go to jail.

Police: What's gonna happen, you're going to have to roll this off the property. (another cop says the wheelchair is hospital property) Well, you're gonna have figure out a way to get up and get gone. 

"I can't. Please don't do me this way. I don't want to go to jail."

Police: Well, get up and get moving then! 

By the paddy wagon, these things are said: 

Police: I'm going to need you to step up. 

"I can't!"

Police: You have to.

Police, while she struggles: oh my fucking jesus lord mary 

Police: I'm tired of this dead weight crap. 

Police: Now you're starting to piss me off. Get up! 

"I'm going to pass out."

Police: Well, go on and get in there and pass out, we'll be done with it. 

 Even on"the Lord's day" as one officer called it, they didn't think to see if hospital chaplain could arrange for transport elsewhere.

Let's give the full quote here. He did not reference the Lord's day in any reverent or positive way, he said, "This is the Lord's day, all I want to do is get me some coffee and some oatmeal. I'm not going to deal with your mess this morning." But they didn't berate her? 

She eventually makes it from the covered parking area to the sidewalk where they try to get her into a transport van.  They are unable to lift her successfully into the van.  They keep telling her she can leave and not have to go to jail. But that isn't working.  She's getting arrested.  They prop her on one step in the van.  Ask her to get herself up to the next one so they don't have to drag her. One officer (the youngest appearing one) tries using the F word to make her do stuff.  The other officers use calm language.  They comment she is dead weighting them when they try to lift her. She gets herself up a little then down to the ground. 

This is not an accurate description, and anyone who has seen the video knows that.  You are downplaying it beyond belief. Even though she repeatedly falls, they keep making her try to get up in the paddy wagon. She falls to the floor, she falls to the cement ground, and they leave her there as they have a lil' discussion. 

 Police, when she still cannot get in the wagon: You know what's about to happen? You're about to get some more charges, that's what's about to happen.

"Please help me up!" 

 

Police: You got yourself down there (she has been on the ground for a while now). We sat you up like ten fucking times. 

 

Police: My uniform's all nasty from her. 

 

She desperately calls, doctor, doctor! to someone walking by.

 

Police: I'm offended, she didn't call me a doctor. (laughter) (note that she is still on the ground) 

 

Police: I was thinking, just leave her on the sidewalk, throw a white blanket on her, everybody can go about their day. 

One officer suggests to another to put her in the back of the van instead of the side area they were trying. The transport officer in charge says that's not going to work.  Brings up that if she falls or can't breath that is not going to end well. He refuses to do that because she could die in there.  He thinks she's faking but does not want to take that risk.  They decide to get a police cruiser because the seat is lower to the ground and they can lift her in there.

She's faking it, obviously, but also she might die. 

They get her in the cruiser.  First try was tummy side first and that resulted in a blush moment where she says oh my titty.  They do not laugh at her but blush/laugh at the phrasing. I laughed too to be honest because it was blush/laugh. They turn her on her back. try to prop her up multiple times.   I mention that to point out that they did not touch her wrong. It was awkward moment of trying to put her in the vehicle.

You laughed? You seriously laughed? Because I was in tears long before this point. 

Ah, yes, a blush moment, because, like typical cops, they are shy and easily embarrassed by nature, and surely have never seen a titty in the line of duty. At least one of them has over 15 years of experience and is a violent crime investigator, so I'm sure he was the most embarrassed of all.  I hope none of them were traumatized.

When they put her in the cruiser, she is fully sideways and immediately asks for help getting up. 

 

Police: Shut up.

 

Police: You can set yourself up. 

 

She is never placed fully sitting up. The cops are laughing as she asks for help again and again. 

 

She is fully sideways when the cruiser leaves. She begs for help, says she needs help sitting up bc she can't breathe. She is clearly wheezing at this point, her speech is becoming more and more slurred. 

The driver notices it is quiet. 

The driver absolutely does not notice it is quiet. Indeed, he proceeds to make a traffic stop. 

He checks on her.  Then he stops the vehicle and calls for EMT.  "I don't know if she's faking it or not, but she is not responding".  He props her up and uses her hair to pull her head back.  

Again, he does not at all check on her whilst driving and does not stop the vehicle to check on her. He stops the vehicle in order to make a traffic stop, and only notices that she is completely still and unresponsive when he returns to the cruiser. Then he panics (bc he knows he done fucked up), and calls for help. He does not prop her up. I don't think he even tries, but it wouldn't have worked anyway, because she was utterly unconscious and probably already stroking out. 

I read the responses here and expecting horrible stuff.  But the 1 hour 16 minute video I watched, was nothing like that.  

You might want to recalibrate your Horrible Meter, I think it's broken. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by katilac

[katilac]

I also want to say that, even if had they been dealing with a person who was faking illness or being difficult, these cops still acted like garbage human beings.

Everyone should be treated with a baseline of compassion and respect. Including people who fake illness or injury, or who have a mental illness, or who are just plain difficult. 

Part of the Knoxville PD mission statement: 

DEDICATION: Committed to serving the needs of the public in a compassionate and impartial fashion.

 

[Corraleno]

I was so taken aback by the claim that the cops were nice and didn't "berate her" that I felt compelled to go back and rewatch the video so I could transcribe some of what they actually said to her.

There were 7 cops involved: 3 hospital security guys, 2 cops that I think are Knoxville PD who handled the original call (ETA: Barnett and Wardlaw); another Knoxville PD who comes later and transports her in the cruiser (ETA: Distasio); and the guy who drives the "paddy wagon" who does not seem to be KPD and is maybe a corrections employee (ETA: Danny Dugan, he is a Transportation Officer, not a regular cop)? Anyway the van driver, an older guy with a gray beard, was the ONE human who didn't treat Lisa Edwards like shit. He tried to help her get from her wheelchair into the van, and told her he was going to help her, he wouldn't let her fall, etc. He's also the one who decided not to transport her in the paddy wagon because he was afraid she'd fall and stop breathing without anyone being able to help her. I'll call the van driver Nice Guy, and the two Knoxville PD officers Rude Cop 1 and Rude Cop 2. The body cam videos at the hospital are from RC1 and RC2.

As they’re unsuccessfully trying to stuff Lisa in the van, she ends up lying in a super uncomfortable position, part in and part out of the van, moaning and saying she can’t breathe. RC1: “Just stop, just stop ok, it’s not working, we’re not doing this, so just stop. We’re gonna put you back there, we’re not doing this no more with you, you’ve been medically cleared, so we know better. You’re getting in there one way or the other, so stop. Now get in there, I’m going to PUT you in there if you don’t help us, now STOP this!”

She continues to moan and he says “Now turn around and WALK, turn around and walk” while she’s saying “oh my god, oh my god.” He tells her to go up the step, she says she can’t, and he says “Yes you can, now get in there or I’m gonna put you in there, get in there!” He tries to shove her in and she kind of collapses half in and half out again.

She’s saying “oh my god, oh my god” and asks for her her inhaler. RC1 says she doesn't have an inhaler, she says she does, he says “I’m gonna ask you one last time… I’ve had enough, use your legs, just stop, now you’re starting to piss me off!” and he reaches down, grabs her, and drags her to her feet. He keeps telling her to to use her legs, she keeps saying she can’t, and he says she’s “deadweight” and she's doing it on purpose. He then goes and tells RC2 that he needs to come help lift her.

[BTW, when she's being dragged into the van it's obvious that she has limited use of her left arm, which is hanging limply by her side.]

Rude Cop 2 arrives and says “Listen to me, I’m not doing this, ok, LISTEN TO ME, this is the Lord’s day, all I want to do is get me some coffee and oatmeal, I’m not gonna deal with your mess this morning! We already spent too much time on you, you’re gonna get up in this van and you’re going to jail because we’re done with you. I’m tired of this dead weight crap!"

RC1 and RC2 try to shove her in the van again and she says “I’m gonna pass out” and RC2 says “You’re not gonna pass out... you know what, go on and get in there and pass out and be done with it. This is all an act!” He says “You can get up here or I’m gonna stuff you on the floor, so which one do you want it to be?? I’m leaving that up to you, you either get your butt up here or you’re gonna have your head here [points to floor] and your feet up there, and we’re gonna drive you to jail like that,” and one of the security guys laughs.

She continues moaning and saying “oh my god, oh my lord” and RC2 says “You know what’s about to happen? You’re gonna get some more charges that’s what’s gonna happen!”

They discuss throwing her on the floor in the back part of the paddy wagon, but Nice Guy says they won’t be able to get her out, and someone else says they should drag her by her ankles [Note: Lisa has repeatedly told them that her ankles are injured and she can’t walk].

RC1: “Listen to me! You’re gonna get jammed in that tiny compartment in the back if you don’t get up there. Listen to me, get up there and quit this bullcrap!” RC2 adds “Don’t you dare fucking throw yourself on the ground!”

Nice Guy says he doesn't want her to fall or stop breathing in the van, and RC1 suggests putting her in a cruiser instead.

By this point Lisa is lying on the cold dirty sidewalk, with her pants half down, moaning “oh my god, oh my god” over and over. RC2 says “you can’t get in there, what the fuck makes you think … [unintelligible].”

At one point someone finds her inhalers in her suitcase and gives them to her, but she's not able to use them right, she seems disoriented and she's blowing out or not getting the medicine, and the cops yell at her for doing it wrong.

As she's lying on the sidewalk she begs them over and over to sit her up, like at least 30 times. “Sit me up please! Sir, sir! Please sir sit me up! Sit me up!" over and over. One of the security guys says "We had you set up! We set you up like 10 fucking times and you got yourself back on the floor!” So they leave her lying on the sidewalk while she moans "oh my God, oh my Lord." She starts calling for a doctor and begging for a stretcher, saying she can't breathe, she's going to die, they're killing her, they're letting her die, and RC2 says "If anybody’s letting you die it’s yourself because you’re not using your inhaler correctly!”

The police cruiser arrives and one of the cops (possibly the cruiser driver) says “we should just throw a white blanket over her here on the sidewalk and everybody can just go about their day," and RC1 says well, she’s already got a warrant on her now — as if that's the only thing keeping them from just leaving her there in the sidewalk.

They transfer the male prisoner from the cruiser to the paddy wagon (and Nice Guy also treats the prisoner with respect and dignity), then they try to stuff Lisa into the cruiser. RC1 says “the hospital discharged her and she was walking fine, now she’s playing games” but she was in a wheelchair when he got there and there’s no video at all of her even standing on her own, let alone “walking fine.” 

RC1 and RC2 drag her into a standing position while she’s saying “oh my legs, oh my legs” and RC1 says “we know you can walk, now stop it!” They stuff her into the car and leave her lying on her back, with her pants almost completely off, while she repeatedly begs them to sit her up and says she can't breathe. 

Then the video switches to the cruiser cam, where she's begging for help to sit up, saying she can't breathe. They drag her into a sitting position once, let her fall back down, and that's the last "assistance" she gets until she's dragged unconscious and dying out of the cruiser about 20 minutes later.

So that's how Lisa Edwards spent the last hour or so of her conscious existence on Earth: lying on a dirty cold sidewalk, with her pants down, moaning "Oh my God" over and over, begging for help, saying she couldn't breathe and she was dying and wanted a doctor and a stretcher, while cops told her she was pissing them off, they knew she was faking, and if she died it was her own fault for using her inhaler wrong.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Corraleno
add names

[easypeasy]

I saw this and took the rest of the day off from the internet. Gut-wrenching to watch.

I have relatives who are overweight and dress as if they aren't well off (in their case, they actually are quite well off, but to look at them everyone assumes they are dirt-poor mountain people due to their clothing choices and "hick" accents).

They are treated routinely atrociously by medical professionals - primary care, specialists, ER... it doesn't matter. I, who dress/look quite the opposite of my dear family members, have walked in after my relatives call me, telling me how they are being ignored (at best) or treated like dirt. When I waltz in (usually with my nose quite high in the air and a Boss Bitch attitude of "do my will, minions") the energy changes immediately.

What? This poor, sad, overweight, unhealthy person has someone in their life who will advocate for them? We'd better run those tests, then! We'd better take their complaints seriously! We'd better look up their records to see the pattern their health issues have already set! Snap to it!

I hate being the icy, demanding, loud, squeaky-wheel hospital advocate, but I tell ya what - sometimes that attitude is the ONLY thing that will get things moving!

It is disgusting. Seeing Lisa Edwards was like seeing my own family sitting there, but without someone to advocate for her and to light a fire beneath some sluggish aholes. That literally could be one of them if I was unable to answer my phone one day. I have cried buckets today in her memory. Just... awful, awful, awful. HOW did they expect her to be speaking coherently when she is ACTIVELY saying she cannot breathe???? (seriously, shouldn't that phrase be a huge Red Flag Pause Everything keyword for police now?)

Does she HAVE family? Has anyone come forward advocating for her now??? :(

I know that hospital workers and policemen/women have incredibly difficult jobs. And I know that, frequently, they are dealing with "fakers," which complicates things. But, good gracious. That woman was in distress. Give her a minute, sweet baby of jerusalem!!!!!!

 

 

[Corraleno]

12 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

Does she HAVE family? Has anyone come forward advocating for her now??? :(

Her son and DIL live in Rhode Island, where Lisa was living before she made her ill-fated trip to TN. They are definitely planning to sue. The DIL, August Boylan, is a registered nurse.

"August Boylan said she watched the police video with District Attorney Charme Allen before it was released, but Tim Boylan said he has not. August Boylan explained that she was disgusted to the extent that she was sick to her stomach after watching the video. She said that as a nurse, she doesn’t understand how someone could fake things like it was claimed she was, such as the inability to use her left side and her muscle atrophy.

“You don’t have to be a medical professional to know what the signs of stroke are. And you can see that in her, you know, start to finish. Her speech is completely changed from start to finish. And you know it’s… she’s, she’s struggling to breathe. That is not somebody working themself up like they said in there. That is not somebody faking it. She, I mean, she said it herself, that she was dying, she was having a stroke.”

Edited March 1, 2023 by Corraleno

[cbollin]

this part:  Again, he does not at all check on her whilst driving and does not stop the vehicle to check on her. He stops the vehicle in order to make a traffic stop, and only notices that she is completely still and unresponsive when he returns to the cruiser. Then he panics (bc he knows he done fucked up), and calls for help. He does not prop her up. I don't think he even tries, but it wouldn't have worked anyway, because she was utterly unconscious and probably already stroking out. 

 

I'm the bad person everyone is yelling at.  I did not intend to say that all the cops present were good and perfect.  I was trying to point out stuff like the "paddy wagon driver", or the officer who tried to instruct her on using the inhaler. (one was mean, one was saying stuff like you have to do that again.)  I wasn't expecting to see anyone who was kind but there were some. I hated when they used F word toward her.  That is berating. so I stand corrected on that point that there was berating going on by some. Others were using firm "not buying it" voices because they relied on what hospital said.

on the cruiser part. What I saw/heard was that he checks by asking her "need help?" after she goes quiet.  Now I'm questioning my own notes on when he said that. before traffic stop or not?  I don't know and dont' want to watch again. 

 In my thinking that was checking.  But now I see how that word choice was mistaken that maybe I was implying he checked her for pulse  or other things, or stopped the car just for that.    So I can understand the anger toward me since I gave a different impression on "check" when it was more of "asks her Need help?"   I didn't make that up as a coping thing to deal with watching the video, right?  he does asks that. right?   That last 16 minutes of the video in the cruiser is just so hard to watch. She goes downhill so quickly and it's so sad.

I really thought he props her up just before he pulls her hair.  She doesn't sit herself up to suddenly appear in the camera view.   So I don't know how else to describe that he did something that took her from out of view while laying down into camera view in a more vertical position for a short time before she falls again out of camera view for rest of video.  But you seem adamant he did NOT do anything like that.   I guess prop is wrong word.  yet another example that i'll have to tell my doctor that this really is early onset demetia with my language issues in the last months.

anyway...

I'll admit that the cruiser part was so hard for me to watch that I couldn't write about how much I cried as her noises changes (stroke I guess is what everyone is saying. I'm not in know on that while it was happening.  I would have thought heart attack.  I really do not know what a stroke looks like even though everyone else on this forum does. I cried also when I realized that there was nothing the car driver could do. When she is quiet it is the hardest part of the whole thing.  I paused crying when I heard him ask the dispatch something to the effect of are you sure there isn't ...."  from what I heard my mind made me think that he was asking for ambulance to get there quicker and it was important.  That to me was that he realized and knew.

I'm not a good writer or talker anymore and was just trying to share some commentary I had while watching the video. I watched it and thought "this is not what I was expecting from the descriptions".   I was expecting something else. maybe that's my point.

The Lord's day comment that I made was in context of me wishing that even if he was calling Sunday that (for any reason, legit or mocking), why didn't he think of a Chaplain when she asked for "the preacher".    I'm not sure how that was taken wrongly but it was. I'm sorry.  As someone who is struggling with language and talking in the last few months, I often say the wrong word and wish people could guess the context like I think she meant.

No, I didn't give a play by play.  and I think in my original post I must have said enough that at least one person knew I saw bad stuff that I mentioned. The video is long.  and no they weren't kindly gently telling her to step up.  But they weren't dragging her either even if they asked about it. 

I think farrar's comment way above helps to explain what I was seeing: "That's so terrible. So many people failing this woman on so many levels. I feel like people put god-like trust in healthcare workers. When the healthcare workers say, hey, she's fine, she's faking it, it encourages cops -- who are already trained to treat people like a threat and not a person most of the time -- to ignore any common sense about a person who is literally in their death throes. "

That is what I was trying to explain in my posts. 

 

In addition to the stuff others mentioned..... Here are some other bad things I noticed: In the first part of the video, while talking to the first officer, security calls her a PITA or says something that she being one.  I don't think she was in ear shot of that comment.   There's the weird thing with the Lysol can.  I don't know if others have mentioned that already.  That was one of the first clips I saw and out of context I thought oh my goodness they didn't spray her with that did they.  No.  But even in context I barely understand it.  The one cop sprayed the other to help clean him..? maybe? what?

no that's not all of the bad stuff.  just a few.  

I know this will not be popular to hear, but I was glad to see the first officer walk away for a moment at the beginning when he was losing his temper and they were still in the covered section of the parking area.  She had said something stupid to him about him "not hurting me again".  He hadn't done anything to her at that point except get her side of the story and the security side of the story and come back to talk with her.   I can't remember exactly what he said, and don't want to watch again, but I do think he made a good choice to walk away from it until later. He didn't get verbally mean with her but stepped away from that comment. 

I was surprised and saddened at how quickly she went from holding more of a conservation at the very beginning (able to tell what was going on, stating name, asking to call the preacher, stating that she wasn't like that) into suddenly not able to do that.

and on a side note: I completely agree with poster who brought up bias against overweight and disability.  I see that often in the community (I'm  part of disability groups). 

[MercyA]

6 minutes ago, cbollin said:

just trying to share some commentary I had while watching the video. I watched it and thought "this is not what I was expecting from the descriptions".   I was expecting something else. maybe that's my point.

I appreciate everyone here who watched the video and shared what they saw, including you. Different people notice different things for a variety of reasons. I did not read your post as anything but your own honest commentary. I certainly don't think you are a bad person or a bad communicator. 

You've been here a long time and you know that if someone thinks someone else is not being entirely accurate they are generally going to call it out, especially when it's a life and death topic like this one. It's actually one of the things I really appreciate on this forum. It's hard not to take it personally, I know. I've been in the line of fire, too, sometimes fairly and sometimes (IMHO) not. 😉 But at the end of the day I think we are all trying to get at the truth of things.

You're okay. Hugs.

[happi duck]

@cbollin

You called yourself "the bad person everyone is yelling at".  No one is yelling at you.

Let's keep the focus on Lisa Edwards.  Her situation is an absolute nightmare.  Why couldn't she hang out at the hospital waiting room or public areas?  Why couldn't the cops call an ambulance?  Being able to say " I can't breathe " does NOT equal "yes, you can".  Cops don't know this?

[Clemsondana]

I do think that we put police in a hard position with regard to medical situations.  If an officer wants to question somebody and the doctors say that the person is off limits for medical reasons, we expect the police to defer to the doctors.  Couple that with the fact that most people defer to medical professionals anyway just because the average person lacks the training to do anything different, and I can see how the officers would assume that the doctors were right and this person was faking. 

It can be hard to make any headway with medical workers.  I know a nurse who was dealing with abdominal pain and was turned away from the ER as pill-seeking because she mentioned a medicine by name.  She went to another ER and had a hysterectomy to treat the condition within weeks.  If a nurse can have this problem, I can see how untrained people get lost in the shuffle.  In this case, the only thing that would have helped is more treatment at the hospital that she was at.  I'd love to see some of the things mentioned above - step-down facilities, more social support, etc as an alternative to jail - but in this case she died before she could be taken anywhere. 

[thatfirstsip]

Separate of the rest of it, I can see why a hospital can't just let people stay who want to hang out, if they've been medically cleared as not in need of emergent care. I don't know that removing them, if they have nowhere really to go, is a good job for the police - but that's on the system, not the officers.

I also don't know that the ED was unreasonable in clearing her medically; maybe the stress of being made to leave is what triggered the stroke, or maybe they missed something. If that stress is what caused the stroke, then it seems like the real problem here was that the police showed up to do a social work job; she needed to be rehoused, or found a secure place for, not taken to jail. But a police officer's mandate, if you insist on staying somewhere you're not welcome, is to talk you into leaving or take you to jail - it's just such a mismatch between what this woman needed (ongoing medical care/observation, even if non-emergent - like say in a nursing home or assisted living facility, a safe place to live, etc.) and what the police are able to provide. 

[Corraleno]

One thing that needs to be cleared up is the idea that "the hospital told police she was faking it," so of course they believed the medical professionals.

That is not true.

The Knoxville cops never, at any time, spoke to any doctor or hospital staff other than the security guys. The ONLY thing they knew about her condition was that she had been discharged, and one of the security guys told them she was being "a pain in the ass."

The cops are the ones who decided that Lisa Edwards was "faking it" and "playing games." One cop yells at her, saying “we know you can walk, now stop it!” He tells another cop “the hospital discharged her and she was walking fine, now she’s playing games” — but she was literally in a wheelchair or lying on the ground since he got there, and as far as I can tell none of the security guys told him that she could walk. In fact, at one point the security guy yells at Lisa that they had "set her up 10 fucking times" already but she always ended up back on the floor, which certainly suggests that she was not "walking just fine" even before she was discharged.

When they're trying to stuff her in the van, you can clearly see that her left side is affected, her left hand is curled up against her body and her left arm is limp. I can't tell whether she has any control over her left leg, because there's no video of her standing without being held up by 2 or 3 cops, but it's likely that she also didn't have control of her left leg — yet they're yelling at her to step up into the van and use her legs, as she repeatedly says she can't, and they say "yes you can!"

Her condition clearly deteriorates over the course of the interaction. She is slurring her words, moaning, repeatedly saying she can't breathe, she's having a stroke, she's dying, begging for help, begging for a doctor. They could have asked someone to come out and check on her but they'd already decided she was just a "pain in the ass" who was faking her symptoms so they treated her like trash — to the point that one of the cops got another guy to spray him down with lysol, saying "she got my uniform all nasty" after he tried to lift her up. They'd have treated a stray dog 10 times better.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Corraleno

[Terabith]

I haven’t watched this, so I’m commenting only on commentaries.  
 

It sounds like many of the police officers were jerks and unprofessional.  I’m not excusing them.  But at the same time, I really feel like this is more of a systemic issue than a bad apple cop issue, because even if they hadn’t spoken with a doctor, they were told that she was discharged and wouldn’t leave.  I can certainly understand how police, who are trained to think that they are pretty much always in opposition to anyone they’re interacting with, would think that someone who was discharged was fine, could walk (because why would the hospital discharge someone who couldn’t walk), and that she was just being a jerk.  
 

I am not excusing the police, but I can see how what happened occurred.  
 

And it seems like the biggest issue here is that we are asking police to do something they aren’t qualified for.  The issue with funding the police far, far more than any other form of government or infrastructure is that police are asked to solve medical and social work problems.  The hospital called the police when she wouldn’t leave.  And I kinda understand why they did.  But if there had been social workers they could have called, who maybe could have advocated for her, the whole situation might have gone very differently.  

[Clemsondana]

It's not that the hospital said that she was faking, it was that the hospital wanted the police to remove her.  I seems reasonable for anybody to think that if the hospital says that somebody should be removed, that person is not critically ill.  There have been publicized cases over the years, including this one, where that is clearly not the case.  But, it's not crazy for one to assume that somebody being discharged from the hospital with no recommendation for accommodation (a wheelchair, crutches, a monitoring device, etc) is OK to get into a car.  

Having seen a hospital try to send a relative home post-surgery when the relative still had out-of-control pain and was just sitting in the bed, confusedly crying, while a nurse kept saying in an ugly voice 'Eat something - we can't give you anything for pain until you eat those crackers' while the patient was still too addled to actually figure out how to eat a cracker, I know that medical personnel can do things that defy common sense.  And, in this situation, this patient needed what my relative had, a spouse who was willing to get in sombody's face and say that until the patient was more stable, they were not leaving the hospital.  We really do need advocates for people in this situation.  But, the police are not qualified to be that person.  They likely can't afford to have an adversarial relationship with the hospital since I'd imagine that they work with it often and there is probably some degree of professional courtesy there.  And, I'd imagine that plenty of doctors wouldn't treat the police any better - if they don't listen to the patient, I don't know that they'd listen to an officer.  That doesn't mean that the officers behaved correctly, just that I don't know what they could have done that would have been likely to lead to a better outcome.  Maybe taking her back to the ER would have worked, or maybe she'd have been stuck in the waiting room.  I don't have a good feel for how that would have played out.  

[happi duck]

How could the cops, grown adults, not conceive of "maybe her condition changed and we should call an ambulance"?

 

[easypeasy]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Her son and DIL live in Rhode Island, where Lisa was living before she made her ill-fated trip to TN. They are definitely planning to sue. The DIL, August Boylan, is a registered nurse.

"August Boylan said she watched the police video with District Attorney Charme Allen before it was released, but Tim Boylan said he has not. August Boylan explained that she was disgusted to the extent that she was sick to her stomach after watching the video. She said that as a nurse, she doesn’t understand how someone could fake things like it was claimed she was, such as the inability to use her left side and her muscle atrophy.

“You don’t have to be a medical professional to know what the signs of stroke are. And you can see that in her, you know, start to finish. Her speech is completely changed from start to finish. And you know it’s… she’s, she’s struggling to breathe. That is not somebody working themself up like they said in there. That is not somebody faking it. She, I mean, she said it herself, that she was dying, she was having a stroke.”

I am so, so, so glad she has family who will fight for her. And I hope the son never has to watch that video. 💔

[easypeasy]

3 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

Separate of the rest of it, I can see why a hospital can't just let people stay who want to hang out, if they've been medically cleared as not in need of emergent care. I don't know that removing them, if they have nowhere really to go, is a good job for the police - but that's on the system, not the officers.

Because then the hospital becomes a hangout spot for transients and unhomed people.

Several libraries in my area struggle with this predicament. They welcome everyone - but then families stop patronizing certain locations because the unhoused population sort of takes over the sitting areas and bathrooms. I volunteer with homeless shelters and even I've been caught off guard walking into a library and passing by dozens of homeless individuals camped out in various places in the library. Moms are nervous to let their kids wander through the stacks or go to the bathrooms unattended.

There are no easy answers, unfortunately.

[LucyStoner]

This is a gut wrenching  example of how poor people are all too often treated by medical professionals and cops.  But I am absolutely unsurprised.  

My mother was visibly poor.  The healthcare she received was often quite deficient and dismissive. Providers were often callous and rude.  She was essentially told to go home and die when she was 49 and was trying to see if her cancer had come back.   

This is part of why I have always refused to see healthcare providers as infallible or defacto heroes.  It’s just like any other profession:  people are human and some humans either are terrible people or behave in terrible ways.  Burnout, cynicism and bigotry exist everywhere.  

It’s terrible that the only remedy available to the family is a civil suit.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by LucyStoner

[73349]

IMO a police department should be training for the ability to identify medical distress, and failing at that skill needs to be a deal-breaker in any first-response field.

ERs don't discharge people because they're okay, just because they don't appear to be dying right that minute. I think an officer bringing her back in for another look because her condition was deteriorating would have succeeded in getting medical attention that might have saved her life.

[LucyStoner]

20 minutes ago, 73349 said:

IMO a police department should be training for the ability to identify medical distress, and failing at that skill needs to be a deal-breaker in any first-response field.

ERs don't discharge people because they're okay, just because they don't appear to be dying right that minute. I think an officer bringing her back in for another look because her condition was deteriorating would have succeeded in getting medical attention that might have saved her life.

I know people who were discharged from the hospital who were in no fit state to leave.  There are social services but resources are spread thin.  This is a man I knew personally who died after being discharged from the hospital with nowhere to convalesce except for the old truck he lived in.  He was too proud to reach out to friends for help.  

https://www.realchangenews.org/news/2010/05/05/robert-hansen-1951-2010

“After a two-night stint at Swedish last week for internal bleeding, Robert was discharged on Tuesday, April 27. Doctor's orders prescribed seven days of bed rest. His body was found Thursday evening, April 29, in his pickup truck on Sixth Avenue South and South. Massachusetts Street, in the industrial SoDo district. The King County Medical Examiner estimates that he died Wednesday, April 28.”

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by LucyStoner