I expect for my DIL(s) to be closer to their moms than me, do you?

[stephanier.1765]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I am so sorry about your situation. How old are your grandchildren? For my side of the family, it does get better for “clingy” daughters as their children reach preschool age and they (the mothers) feel more confident.
My DS18 was very clingy and he wailed when I went into Walmart for a quick purchase while he stayed with my husband. He was okay by the time he was 3. 

They are 2 and 4. Right now I'm on the "ignore" list because they had asked me to go on a cruise with them, her parents and extended family so I could babysit the kids while they (son, wife, and her family) went off to do their own thing. Well one, I do not enjoy her family. Two, I've never been on a cruise so navigating one on my own would be stressful but navigating it with two small children in tow seems especially so. Three, I'd like my first cruise experience to be one I could actually experience and not be the third wheel. And four, my fibromyalgia has gone through the roof. It could be better by the time comes around for the cruise but it very well could not be and that's scary for me. So I told her I couldn't do it and I haven't heard a peep back since. I told her as nicely as I could and as soon as I could so she could make different plans if she needs to but it's been silent air.

[Kassia]

@stephanier.1765 again, I am sorry.  You deserve so much better.  I always wished that my kids had a grandmother who adored them and wanted to spend time with them like you do with your grandkids.  It seems like your DIL just takes that for granted and doesn't appreciate how special you are. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Hilltopmom said:

My in laws who I was NOT close to came to the hospital within the hour of my oldest being born and stayed for hours. I was miserable but too young and intimidated to ask them to leave. Dh didn’t get the hint and they never left the room for me to tell him! I couldn’t even get up to deal with the blood and what not because in a gown I wasn’t going to walk around in front of them.

It was bad.

then they never showed interest in our kids again, weird.

 

50 minutes ago, Kassia said:

this is very similar to my situation!  It's just an awful memory.  And then, just like yours, no interest later...

Think it is probably a photo op moment. My in-laws came to the hospital, took a photo with my newborn, forwarded the photo to their relatives, and left to tour the hospital and do their own stuff. When they visit they also totally ignore my kids except to take a photo per visit to WhatsApp to relatives. 

[Arcadia]

49 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

They are 2 and 4. Right now I'm on the "ignore" list because they had asked me to go on a cruise with them, her parents and extended family so I could babysit the kids while they (son, wife, and her family) went off to do their own thing.

Sounds very similar to how my husband’s brother and wife treat my in-laws. They are my in-laws favorite because of eldest son status so can get away with it. They would ask my in-laws for lots of favors and only include the wife’s relatives for vacations. 

When his wife came here on a MLM reward trip, she “asked” my husband to drive her and her sister around to tour San Francisco and Stanford university during their free time. Did not even pop over to say hi to our kids, just expect my husband to drive to their hotel and pick them up. So my husband was chauffeur and cameraman. Then she brag on Facebook that my husband was so nice to drive them around. 

[Kassia]

10 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Think it is probably a photo op moment. My in-laws came to the hospital, took a photo with my newborn, forwarded the photo to their relatives, and left to tour the hospital and do their own stuff. When they visit they also totally ignore my kids except to take a photo per visit to WhatsApp to relatives. 

Yes, that's it!  My in-laws showed up for grandparents day every year when my kids were in elementary school and that was the only interest they ever showed in the kids (unless they needed help in the yard).  

They also wouldn't watch my older kids for more than a couple of hours when I had my youngest so DH had to leave me alone with the baby at the hospital after a C-Section.  

[JennyD]

2 hours ago, Kassia said:

I do wonder if it's because they are already close with their own mothers? 

I hope this isn't true, because if so it is such an odd way of thinking.  I mean, I guess young people sometimes think that love is a finite resource, but they are so, so wrong!  Hopefully they will grow out of it over time, perhaps if and when they become parents themselves.  

I felt like having a good relationship with my own mother gave me an excellent basis for building a good relationship with my MIL.   In fact, my mom has always encouraged me -- sometimes quite strongly! -- to strengthen my relationship with my ILs in various ways. 

I call my ILs Mom and Dad because they are my husband's mother and father, but it really is a different sort of relationship than I have with my own parents.  And DH's relationship with my parents is very different from the one he has with his own.  They're not better or worse, just different.

This whole delivery room thing is just bizarre to me, though. When I had my first kid my mom mentioned something about being there, but when I pointed out to her that if G-d forbid there was any kind of medical crisis she would absolutely freak out, and even if things were going well did she really want to see me in excruciating pain? She readily agreed that that wasn't her scene.  And MIL never would have dreamed of suggesting such a thing!  When she gave birth she didn't even want FIL in the room.

 

[Acadie]

MIL expressed her desire to be in the delivery room with our first. After I said I wanted just dh and my sis for the birth, MIL scheduled a silent retreat so she and FIL were literally unreachable FOR DAYS after dd was born! One of the early signals of narcissism that I couldn't name at the time, but simply baffled me.

Twin delivery and postpartum are a bit less predictable than singleton. With my dd I'd focus on the real need to see how she feels and how the babies are doing after delivery, and additional challenges with nursing or bottle-feeding twins. Perhaps her doctor may have helpful input or guidance on early postpartum visitors with twins, especially if overnight guests seem potentially overwhelming. Sometimes it's easier to communicate boundaries as medical advice.

That said, please go be with your dd whenever she wants you there. She's asking for your support, and I'm assuming that means emotional, physical, caregiving support and perhaps to help sort out requests, gifts or visits from others. Your job is to hear and support your daughter, not to absent yourself in the interest of equal time or tiptoe around the ILs.

Could SIL encourage an early day trip or two by ILs to meet and spend time loving their new grandbabies, to involve them early on? And leave the question of overnight visits until the young family has a better sense how everyone is doing health-wise?  

When I see new parents and families now I think it's such a vulnerable transition, and I feel a powerful impulse to honor whatever they wish for or decline in terms of support, visits, gifts, etc. My sense of protectiveness toward new families probably comes partly from the negative impact MIL's drama and demands have had on my marriage and family. 

It may seem difficult, but it's infinitely better and ultimately easier to set direct and loving boundaries from the outset. I agree with others that DD and SIL need to figure out what will work for them, with priority given to the birthing mom's wishes, and that SIL should be the one to communicate with his family. 

You support your girl, including helping her discern what she is comfortable with around the birth and postpartum in terms of visitors. 

It's the young couple's turn now. 

[Arcadia]

11 minutes ago, Kassia said:

They also wouldn't watch my older kids for more than a couple of hours when I had my youngest so DH had to leave me alone with the baby at the hospital after a C-Section.  

My MIL insisted on looking after DS18 for the few hours when DS17 was born. It all comes down to bragging rights that she was indispensable. She literally brag to relatives that we needed her help when she self invite. She just sat DS18 in his high chair for hours. DS18 has always been a wary baby since newborn and the next time my in-laws visited, he would hide from them. He trust my husband’s aunts instinctively and would let them hug and carry as long as I am nearby. 

[teachermom2834]

As far as the specifics of having a newborn, while I do believe it is up to the mother who can visit, I do think it should be only an extreme situation that keeps a grandparent on either side away from a newborn for long. I don’t mean an extended stay but popping by for 30 minutes to an hour is something I think should be accommodated to a new grandparent that isn’t toxic when everyone is well. I feel like that is an unpopular opinion but I still hold it 🙂I had some hard births and some complications and some difficult recoveries but I could handle an hour with an annoying person with dh or another relative present. I would hope most people could make that accommodation. 

However, often the most difficult people are the ones who would not accept this arrangement. I anticipate being willing to drive pretty far for an hour at a time to lay eyeballs on a grandchild and drop off food/diapers/whatever expression of support I could. Not sure what my limits would be but I’d be willing to be inconvenienced. But my MIL, who is extremely difficult, is also one to dictate how we are not making arrangements worth it to her. So until we toughened up we were allowing her to demand long stays in our home, us waiting on her (it’s her vacation! etc) My very first Mother’s Day while I was nursing a newborn (who was receiving in home nursing care visits for jaundice and failure to thrive) and I was hobbling without full function on one leg because of trauma during the birth) she walked into my house and put her feet up in the recliner and said “It is Mothers’ Day so you are taking care of ME” to my poor shell shocked 23 yo dh just trying to keep his wife and baby alive and somewhat comfortable. So yeah, when the next baby came and we put a “no visits for the first two weeks” and she had to get a hotel rule on her she made a big stink about how that just wasn’t worth her time and vacation days etc. 

So…the stories on this board of grandparents denied access to their grandchildren are heartbreaking. However, in alot of cases the people being “denied” are people that just can’t dictate the terms and aren’t willing to bend to less that what they feel entitled to or what they deserve. 

[freesia]

Ann, I agree with you. I love my MIL and she is awesome but I don’t call her mom. I do expect my Dil’s to be closer to their own moms but will readily step in if there is dysfunction like my mom did for my SIL. I was much more comfortable with my mom when I had new babies. Mainly bc the relationship hadn’t gotten to the point where I could just hand loose. My MIL did come for one baby bc at the last minute my mom couldn’t come. The next baby my dh took paternity leave. 
I did not want anyone but dh and a doula and medical folks with me when I gave birth. I needed major low stimulation during my births. They felt very intimate to me—not entertainment. I’d be happy to be there for anyone who asked me, but would never expect. Never. 
My grandmother had 3 boys (and my mom).  She showered love and encouragement on all her DIL’s. They all adored her. That’s my plan—not comparing relationships, but being there in real, helpful ways. 

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, stephanier.1765 said:

They are 2 and 4. Right now I'm on the "ignore" list because they had asked me to go on a cruise with them, her parents and extended family so I could babysit the kids while they (son, wife, and her family) went off to do their own thing. Well one, I do not enjoy her family. Two, I've never been on a cruise so navigating one on my own would be stressful but navigating it with two small children in tow seems especially so. Three, I'd like my first cruise experience to be one I could actually experience and not be the third wheel. And four, my fibromyalgia has gone through the roof. It could be better by the time comes around for the cruise but it very well could not be and that's scary for me. So I told her I couldn't do it and I haven't heard a peep back since. I told her as nicely as I could and as soon as I could so she could make different plans if she needs to but it's been silent air.

I'm sorry, that sucks. The whole thing sounds really painful, from the request to the silent treatment. 

[Grace Hopper]

5 hours ago, Kassia said:

 

Deleted too long and personal of a story. In short, I have pretty strong feelings about honoring the wishes of someone who just went through pregnancy and childbirth. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, stephanier.1765 said:

They are 2 and 4. Right now I'm on the "ignore" list because they had asked me to go on a cruise with them, her parents and extended family so I could babysit the kids while they (son, wife, and her family) went off to do their own thing. Well one, I do not enjoy her family. Two, I've never been on a cruise so navigating one on my own would be stressful but navigating it with two small children in tow seems especially so. Three, I'd like my first cruise experience to be one I could actually experience and not be the third wheel. And four, my fibromyalgia has gone through the roof. It could be better by the time comes around for the cruise but it very well could not be and that's scary for me. So I told her I couldn't do it and I haven't heard a peep back since. I told her as nicely as I could and as soon as I could so she could make different plans if she needs to but it's been silent air.

I’m so sorry. That’s a terrible situation. I’m especially sorry your son doesn’t seem to be bothered by it. 

[Meriwether]

My mom came to visit for two weeks when each of my kids were born and also for my sister's kids (even the two my sister had in Spain - 13 total babies). She hemorrhaged at two weeks after I was born, so she didn't want us to drive or sweep the floor which were two of the very specific things her doctor told her not to do. She also cleaned and cooked and watched the older kids. She is the easiest person to have around. After my third, timing worked better for my dad to bring her up (6 hours away) on the weekend, so we invited my MIL to come for the first 3 days. We aren't close, but she was fine. It wasn't like having my mom, but she also cooked, cleaned, and watched the older kids. I think she liked being asked, and it worked out fine. My mom did not go to my brother's for two weeks when my niece was born, because my SIL would not have been comfortable with it. They did go out to visit (12+ hours) for a couple of days in the first 2 months when my brother was off work. I plan on offering to come for each of my grandkids but won't be upset if some families prefer I don't.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, stephanier.1765 said:

Let me tell you, it's hard being the mom of only boys in regards to grandchildren. Yes, DIL should be closer to her mom but that doesn't make me less important of a grandparent. I don't expect to be in the delivery room but I do hope to be able to visit while they are still in the hospital. I hope I can help as much as they need, even if it's staying up with the baby at night so mom and dad can get much needed sleep. I absolutely hope to be just as important to my grandchildren as they are to their maternal one. It would be impossible for me to love them any more than I do. They are the light of my life and just the thought of them puts a stupid grin on my face. But mother's wishes always are assumed to more important than father's, so even though I try to have great relationships with my DILs, one is glued to her mother's side and that makes navigating any sort of relationship very, very difficult and this is the one who is the mother of my grandchildren. I have cried more tears over this than I can express.

My MIL is very difficult. 

My kids are both boys. I worry about this. We've had kind of a rough go of it--kids not totally NT, health issues with one, DH's crazy work schedule...we are set up to be a disappointment from not having a very cozy, conventional kind of life at all. Covid finished off what was left of our social life for the most part, so we're rusty on just normal human interaction. Older DS's only foray into dating was terrible--his GF made up stuff to be slighted about constantly and tried to control DS's behavior by creating crisis points when he was busy, but she was free. He didn't realize how bad it was until it was over. 

I keep hoping we can get our feet back under us before anyone starts dating again!

[Clarita]

I don't totally understand all the people wanting to be in the delivery room. Even my mom doesn't want to be there why would my MIL. It feels like it's either super boring or super stressful, right?

The only person at both my births was my husband. I gave birth in the US I was only in the hospital for 2 days, 1 evening. How is that even enough time for people to "visit" at the hospital? My mom was too many miles away for both births and MIL just waited until the next day when we got home to see her first grandchild. For the second birth she was busy watching my eldest, so she saw my 2nd when we went to pick up her brother.

Also I learned the hard way infants are super fragile (disease-wise) the first 6 weeks of life. Literally the common cold can kill them, fragile. Took my 3 week old to the ER at the children's hospital in a major city, for a fever that barely broke 100F. Within 30 min of arrival into the lobby, he was having every fluid drawn out of his body for testing (yes including spinal fluid). So parents have every reason to keep the list of people to see the newborn in-person super short.

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Thankful for all of the thoughts and experiences that you've shared. I've read and gleaned from them. 

First of all, I knew this would be difficult for moms of only boys to read and I'm sorry. I hope I didn't communicate that MILs and DILs can't be close or that the ILs can't have a wonderful, close, hands-on relationship with the family. I was only talking about someone being there around the clock during that most vulnerable state - when you're emotionally exhausted, bleeding all over the place, leaking, feeling so "off" inside, trying to figure out how to nurse a baby and be a mom...I was speaking of this stage. It is an extremely vulnerable time and regardless of whether you had a good or bad MIL or the decisions you made around who was allowed there, you have to remember that time or at least admit that for someone more private, that could be difficult? I wasn't talking about brief visits nor do I think any set of decent grandparents should have to wait weeks to see babies, but overnights and long visits are a different story. 

Regarding not wanting anyone there during the birth other than the DH, I think that's a personal preference. I was a little surprised that DD asked me to be there since it never really crossed my mind. Because we have a lot of health issues, we're accustomed to being each other's health advocates and I think she wants that. She loves her DH but she knows I've given birth a few times and we've navigated a lot of hospital situations and may be helpful in a different way. Plus, she's having two babies so she wants two sets of hands if needed. I don't imagine younger dd will want me there? Maybe I'm wrong but I would be surprised for her to ask me and I won't ask. There is nothing wrong with either decision.

@Grace Hopper  I think people get more crazy over twins but even more so over identical twins and DD has been warned about this from others. Identical twins get a lot of unsolicited convo, thoughts, comments, crazy questions, people who want to connect with them, etc. I'm sure you understand lol. 

DD and I had a long talk about all of this today. I guess DD hadn't really clearly communicated with DSIL what she wants because she doesn't know. DD doesn't dislike her ILs, she just has no concept of how she will feel about houseguests after birth, not physically or emotionally. I expressed my concerns that they communicate their desires (whatever that may be). Tonight she talked to DSIL more about her fear that she won't feel up to it but will be stuck and he asked his parents to come and see babies but to please book a hotel room so that DD can have breaks when needed. I think this is a good decision. @QueenCat

Regarding MIL experience ... DD's MIL never had a MIL so maybe she truly doesn't understand? Her own DD fits in the percentage of girls who are closer to the MIL than mom. DD and DSIL are the first to have grandkids on both sides so we are all new to this really. 

I really wanted to quote and tag more but I woke up under the weather this morning and my brain is running at half capacity. So sorry for the lack of responses. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Ann.without.an.e]

nm

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Arcadia]

@Ann.without.an.e you aren’t judgmental of your future DIL so that goes a long way. Besides my in-laws, I have also heard many people their age say things like “I brought up my kids this way and they turn out ok” to their next generation (not necessarily their own kids) and that does put a dent on the relationships.  

Many of my aunts have great relationships with their DILs. They know when to help and when to butt off. They also don’t keep scores. When I had 2 under 2, in my apartment complex the grandparents from China would take turns to come over and stay 6 months so that the moms would have continuous help year round for years (The B visa allows a 6 month stay and is valid for 10 years). These grandparents also helped keep an eye on my kids when my mom wasn’t with me and I needed to use the restroom at the park. My neighbors could all get along with their in-laws even if they prefer their own parents. Also the in-laws would usually let the parents come first as the moms usually prefer having their own parents when nursing newborns and establishing a routine. The grandparents from China did find my in-laws behavior in common areas of the apartment complex we stayed in off putting so they avoid my in-laws as well. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

28 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Ann.without.an.e you aren’t judgmental of your future DIL so that goes a long way. Besides my in-laws, I have also heard many people their age say things like “I brought up my kids this way and they turn out ok” to their next generation (not necessarily their own kids) and that does put a dent on the relationships.  

 

 

I really think it helps a lot. My future DIL and I are very very different. She is very focused on looks. She puts way more time into things like hair, nails, clothes, skincare, etc than me. I'm pretty plain. She is very pretty. At first she came across superficial and judgmental towards other people (a trait I dislike). I kept quiet about it though and tried to see her for more than that. When she was excited about her new nails, I would be excited for her (it brought her joy) even though I would never pay money to have my nails done lol. As I watched, I realized that she was hardest on herself. Constantly apologizing for her hair being out of place or a pimple on her face. Seriously, she is so pretty that if I was self focused I could have made it about me, right? "How dare she say her hair is bad when her worst day is better than my best?" But I chose to focus on her and ask myself "what does she need from me?" I rarely said anything about her looks or appearance and I think she grew to appreciate that and see me as a judgement free zone. I tried to focus convo on her love for baking, her desire to learn to crochet, etc. When she would throw out thoughts concerning anything looks-wise, I would pretty much resort back to "gosh it looks good either way so just do what makes you comfortable". She started showing up in yoga pants, buns, and glasses. She truly began to see me as a safe space where her physical beauty (something that made her anxious) was a non-issue, no one was judging her here based on a hair out of line. She could breathe ❤️ 

ETA: I had to cut this and my first part was removed. I feel like your in laws were especially bad, more than a cultural difference? I hate they stressed you so much. 😞 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[easypeasy]

7 hours ago, Meriwether said:

She is the easiest person to have around.

Gosh, I hope that, when my kids are married and have families of their own, that this is how they will see me. ♥ I think that's the ultimate praise for a mom/MIL who comes to visit or who hosts a family gathering at her own house.

As for giving birth, I wanted my mom there, without a doubt. I think it surprised her, tbh, but she was there for all of my kids' births. ♥ And my MIL was definitely NOT invited (although she managed to just walk into the room while I was in late labor for two of the births.... growlllllll). But, my MIL is definitely NOT "the easiest person to have around." She wanted to be there and was definitely offended, but DH took on all of those conversations and never let them touch me, so I just went on as if I was oblivious to her dissatisfaction.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

ETA: I had to cut this and my first part was removed. I feel like your in laws were especially bad, more than a cultural difference? I hate they stressed you so much. 😞 

It is a cultural difference. They grew up at a time where parents are authoritarian and males are valued. So a DIL is considered as marry in and had to obey her husband’s parents.  My MIL does have a bit of a dog in the manger attitude in that she is envious of even her own children having more comfortable lives. My FIL is the only son and is used to the patriarchal system where the wife obeys the husband so he can be condescending at times. That is one of the reason why her daughter prefers the in-laws.

My in-laws annoys me from time to time with their emotional blackmailing my husband but it is not stressful. Its just an acceptance that my relationship with my in-laws would be a purely diplomatic one and best at a distance. It is more stressful for my husband because he has issues with his parents but it is not bad enough to cut them off. So it is neither here nor there. He is just happy to be in different countries from his parents. It was very stressful for us until we relocated to the states mainly because they love to drop by unannounced whenever they wanted help. 

[PeppermintPattie]

I have difficult in-laws, and I spent most of our marriage trying to get dh to set some boundaries. He cannot do it because of lifelong family dynamics. 

I was in a similar situation with my ILs as your dd, and this is what I wish someone had told me, way back when we were having babies and even before:

If your dh cannot set a boundary, then you need to do it. If you don't, you will only become more and more resentful of your husband, and your marriage may not survive. Often people say that the child should be the one to set boundaries with their parents to minimize conflict, but if he won't do it, there IS going to be conflict. I would much rather have had conflict with my ILs, which I already had, than dh.

If I were in your dd's situation, I would write a note card to dh' parents, expressing how excited we are about the new member of the ____last name____ family. Then I would say that I know they want to come and stay, but that it won't work for anyone to come for long visits, and not overnight. I would avoid promising longer stays later. Then I would tell them your plan for how they will know when I'm at the hospital and how things are going, showing them that they are important and will be kept in the loop. 

Also, she'll need to be ready with ways to ask for what she needs - for the visit to end, for help with laundry and cleaning, and for meals and groceries.

The benefit of this approach is that it will help dd feel empowered and in control in a crazy situation, and it will take pressure off of their marriage. It might even help dsil see that boundaries can be kindly set and enforced and help him with ongoing craziness. 

So many of the stories here are about dysfunctional family relationships, and I certainly have had years of resentment toward my ILs and dh for how I have been treated because of their dysfunction, but I think I could have prevented a lot of that if I had figured out how to stand up for myself when no one else would, and we all would have been better off.

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

First of all, I knew this would be difficult for moms of only boys to read and I'm sorry. I hope I didn't communicate that MILs and DILs can't be close or that the ILs can't have a wonderful, close, hands-on relationship with the family.

I don't think you did. I fit the mom of boys category and was responding to the stories about being excluded as moms of boys in egregious ways, not your predicament.

My own MIL is toxic, so that complicates things. 

11 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Regarding MIL experience ... DD's MIL never had a MIL so maybe she truly doesn't understand? Her own DD fits in the percentage of girls who are closer to the MIL than mom. DD and DSIL are the first to have grandkids on both sides so we are all new to this really. 

That's a lot of pressure on the relationship. Maybe someone needs to speak to that elephant in the room with her MIL--besides the boundary of getting a hotel, just acknowledging that those factors make the situation more high pressured, and that they will not leave her out (but get a hotel!) could be reassuring if she's a healthy person. It can feel horrible to be on the receiving end of being "managed" if you really are the kind of person who is just being nice but maybe getting mixed signals or finding out that what you wanted seemed to be okay (DS invited) but needs to be scaled back. In other words, if she's not unreasonable, just saying some blend of, "Oops, we bit off too much because we didn't want to disappoint you. Hotel please. Glad to facilitate meeting baby asap! We love you, but we want more flexibility to adjust the visitor/privacy ratio as needed." 

 

[kbutton]

31 minutes ago, PeppermintPattie said:

If your dh cannot set a boundary, then you need to do it. If you don't, you will only become more and more resentful of your husband, and your marriage may not survive. Often people say that the child should be the one to set boundaries with their parents to minimize conflict, but if he won't do it, there IS going to be conflict. I would much rather have had conflict with my ILs, which I already had, than dh.

Wisdom. Sometimes the DH eventually gets on the train or will be supportive in some way that he is able. If not, then it's back to the health of the marriage from a different direction, but that would come up at some point anyway. Better to find out. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It can feel horrible to be on the receiving end of being "managed" if you really are the kind of person who is just being nice.

 

When we allow ourselves to step back and make it about them and not us, our mentality shifts? We could take offense and think "wow, do they think I'm an annoying person to have around for that long?" but what if we choose to think "this must be an uncertain time for them and it is ok if they need space to figure things out".

DD knows they will take it well, she just wonders what sort of victim mentality it will spark in MIL? She is very nice and DD likes her but she has issues with anxiety and plays the victim a lot. She won't say things to your face, but she says them to others. She will vent to DD and DSIL about her own DD, her husband, her other son's GF in a very "I'm the victim" sort of way over pretty small things. She has done this with DSIL about dd over other things like not calling her mom, her worries that I will be closer to the grandkids since we live closer, etc. DD just hates the idea that she will do something to trigger that victim mentality but I've told her that is inevitable. She will at times and her MIL needs to learn to sort through those feelings. 

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

When we allow ourselves to step back and make it about them and not us, our mentality shifts? We could take offense and think "wow, do they think I'm an annoying person to have around for that long?" but what if we choose to think "this must be an uncertain time for them and it is ok if they need space to figure things out".

DD knows they will take it well, she just wonders what sort of victim mentality it will spark in MIL? She is very nice and DD likes her but she has issues with anxiety and plays the victim a lot. She won't say things to your face, but she says them to others. She will vent to DD and DSIL about her own DD, her husband, her other son's GF in a very "I'm the victim" sort of way over pretty small things. She has done this with DSIL about dd over other things like not calling her mom, her worries that I will be closer to the grandkids since we live closer, etc. DD just hates the idea that she will do something to trigger that victim mentality but I've told her that is inevitable. She will at times and her MIL needs to learn to sort through those feelings. 

Sure, we can choose to think something like it being about space vs. personal, but sometimes it requires having information that supports that, if that makes sense. And I wasn't thinking that MIL would assume she's annoying--I was thinking that MIL will assume that they are less important since that's the worry that seems to have been shared. Less important people tend to receive less information (and so do toxic people, but that remains to be seen). You know more about this situation than the MIL, so...conclude what you will, but you already have a closer relationship with your DD and SIL. It's likely to already be obvious. It doesn't mean that's bad, but it is what it is, so MIL is not crazy to notice.

I have parents that have always tried to manage things artificially with moderately crazy family members (most of whom live by and interact with them on a near-daily basis), and it mostly works for them. Sometimes they try to manage me, thinking it saves me worry, but I sense that I am being managed and would rather have them talk about it directly because I know that's what they do to crazy people, and I am not interested in being put in their crazy bucket, lol! That's in a pretty healthy, trusting relationship where my mom sometimes just doesn't believe xyz that I tell her because we don't live close enough for her to see what my adult preferences are for stress handling. But then we talk about it, and things are okay.

In a relationship with less data to go on, it's more difficult. But if the MIL is anxious, explaining why the change to a hotel is being made could reassure her. If it doesn't, then that's data. If it does, then that's not only data, it's a new tool in the toolbox. If the MIL turns out to be toxic vs. having some maladaptive strategies from her anxiety (a victim mentality could go either way), that's going to come out eventually. It's possible that MIL is less a victim than an anxious over-sharer, and if that's the case, reassurance might totally fix it over time. (And it's possible that your DD has some anxiety that pops up when she's around people who are less self-assured that makes her think the situation is more stressful than it has to be.)

 

If DS were doing the birthing and recovering, then his family would more likely be the one invited to stay. All he has to say is that he spoke up before getting on the same page with his wife (the one recovering), my bad, sorry to have set up expectations that can't be met. It's the truth.

[Ann.without.an.e]

38 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

That all makes a lot of sense, Thank you. 

I have expressed to DD to clearly communicate with a lot of reassurance of love for her in laws and express a desire to have them involved. I think that is what they did too when they talked to them. They told them they would love for them to stay overnight when she is ready. 

It can be hard to feel managed, for sure. I feel that way with younger DSIL sometimes. Because of his own mom he can be triggered into manage mode with women sometime and he knows it, we've discussed it, and I don't let it bother me anymore. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, PeppermintPattie said:

So many of the stories here are about dysfunctional family relationships, and I certainly have had years of resentment toward my ILs and dh for how I have been treated because of their dysfunction, but I think I could have prevented a lot of that if I had figured out how to stand up for myself when no one else would, and we all would have been better off.

@kbutton even when the husband stand up for the wife, the wife can still be badmouthed as the instigator. So might as well stand up for yourself as you would get the blame either way.

My parents were very polite with my in-laws so they keep testing the limits. Kind of bully the meek. My late mom would give them the look while my dad would just be extremely saccharine sweet to them on the rare occasions they call. 

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

DD knows they will take it well, she just wonders what sort of victim mentality it will spark in MIL? She is very nice and DD likes her but she has issues with anxiety and plays the victim a lot. She won't say things to your face, but she says them to others. She will vent to DD and DSIL about her own DD, her husband, her other son's GF in a very "I'm the victim" sort of way over pretty small things. She has done this with DSIL about dd over other things like not calling her mom, her worries that I will be closer to the grandkids since we live closer, etc. DD just hates the idea that she will do something to trigger that victim mentality but I've told her that is inevitable. She will at times and her MIL needs to learn to sort through those feelings. 

I classify that as emotional blackmail or guilt tripping. My MIL has the same behavior of being nice when there is an audience and then badmouthing to others. My MIL has lots of insecurities and emotional baggage. I can understand why she behaves the way she does but “good fences make good neighbors”. I can be both understanding and annoyed enough to push back.

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@kbutton even when the husband stand up for the wife, the wife can still be badmouthed as the instigator. So might as well stand up for yourself as you would get the blame either way.

 

This is real truth

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

@kbutton even when the husband stand up for the wife, the wife can still be badmouthed as the instigator. So might as well stand up for yourself as you would get the blame either way.

Yes! Very true. BTDT.

[Alice]

On 2/7/2023 at 10:16 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

Mothers in law in the labour suite without permission? How horrifying!
I remember my midwife assuring me that hospital staff are more than happy to evict such persons, with obvious glee in her eyes.

 

 

I am late to this thread but I wanted to add to this that this can be one way out of hard conversations for people. I'm a pediatrician and I have many times told new parents that they can blame anything they want on me. "The pediatrician said no visitors for ______" or "the pediatrician said no traveling" or whatever. I have no problem being the bad guy and I will back them up. And I'm sure most other medical people feel the same and will gladly help protect new moms from well-meaning but unhelpful relatives/visitors. I do think it's better for people to learn to advocate for themselves but sometimes the emotional landscape around pregnancy/delivery is a tough time to do that for new Moms and for new Dads...if they haven't already learned it, they might need some extra help setting boundaries. 

[katilac]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:40 PM, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

Younger DD. Her MIL is a nightmare and the only saving grace is that SIL knows this and already keeps her at a distance, gray rocks her all the time, and doesn't let her in to their lives much. But she has really messed up her relationship with her other son. They had a baby. MIL got a little too emotionally invested and even created an entire nursery in her home. She barged into delivery and they let her stay, she threw a fit about how much more time her DIL's mom was getting to stay there after the baby was born. She started stalking them, asking neighbors how often the other mom was there, talking directly to DIL's mom and asking for pictures ... "Oh when was this taken?" Gathering evidence that she wasn't getting equal time. She went crazy over it. She finally threatened to take them to court and have the baby taken away from them if she didn't get equal time with the other grandma. Y'all this is insanity. The whole family has now blocked her and she hasn't seen the baby in a month. 

omigosh, there was a fairly recent letter to an advice columnist (from the m-i-l) that sounds exactly like this, right down to creating an entire nursery! Is she the type, lol? It was something like Ask Amy or Dear Prudence. 

On 2/7/2023 at 9:01 PM, Ann.without.an.e said:

 I didn't know what to call them until I had dd and Grandma and Grandpa felt right 

A real plus to having children 😄

On 2/8/2023 at 9:41 AM, Toocrazy!! said:

 DH was the only one in the room, and looking back it was weird that so many people were waiting at the hospital. I think both sets of grandparents and two brothers.  

My whole extended family is very big on gathering in waiting rooms, waiting on the baby, lol. Like not just grandparents and siblings, add in some aunties and cousins as well. 

They don't expect that they'll all see the baby, though. I think it's just a fun excuse to socialize. One time, I had two cousins giving birth on the same day but at different hospitals, and people were swapping back and forth 😄

On 2/8/2023 at 1:00 PM, Momto6inIN said:

I fully expect my future as yet hypothetical DILs to be closer to their own mothers than they are to me.

I also hope they fully realize that I love their husbands just as much as their own moms love them. I hope they realize that I desire to continue to be close to my sons and to them even though a marriage should definitely involve a shifting and realigning of those roles and relationships. I hope they realize that their children are just as much my son's as they are hers and just as much a joy to me as they are to her mom. I hope she realizes as she holds that precious child that someday he or she might get married and that she might get to be a MIL herself someday. I hope we both give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Bolding by me: I know you're typing off the top of your head, but this veers a little close to 'women have to  carry the mental load' territory. The relationship between you and yours sons should be managed by you and your sons. The dil is not responsible for facilitating that.  And your sons are the ones who have to realize that they are just as much a parent. 

I know there are crazy exceptions on both sides of the fence, but I don't know many daughters-in-law who actively try to get between mother and son; they just don't facilitate the relationship (and shouldn't have to). I do think it's true that the maternal grandmother often sees the kids more, but mostly because grandmother and mother get together more. That's when the dad needs to realize that he is just as much a parent, and that he can just as easily grab the kids and go to his mom's house for coffee, or go with his mom to Chuck E Cheese, or whatever. 

If this isn't happening, don't go to the dil for help, talk to your son. Do you think (wife and mom) would enjoy a little break this weekend? I was thinking you and I could take the kids to the park and maybe lunch after. Or you and the kids can come spend some time here, I'll cook dinner. 

My mil is awesome in many ways, but she would definitely do the thing of asking me instead of her son. Katilac, do you think Mr. Katilac would like to do such-and-such? I don't know, but Mr. Katilac is literally sitting on the next sofa, please go ask him, lol. 

On 2/8/2023 at 3:19 PM, stephanier.1765 said:

They are 2 and 4. Right now I'm on the "ignore" list because they had asked me to go on a cruise with them, her parents and extended family so I could babysit the kids while they (son, wife, and her family) went off to do their own thing.  

Yeah, that's a lil weird. Please tell me they at least made it clear that they were going to pay for your cruise (I mean, I would have still said no, that sounds like a nightmare, but it's extra wild if they thought you would pay). 

[stephanier.1765]

35 minutes ago, katilac said:

Yeah, that's a lil weird. Please tell me they at least made it clear that they were going to pay for your cruise (I mean, I would have still said no, that sounds like a nightmare, but it's extra wild if they thought you would pay). 

No, the cost was on me. It was another reason I said no. That's a lot of money for us. I actually didn't say no right away because I was afraid of making a knee jerk reaction. So I gave it some thought, talked it over with DH, and ultimately decided it was all just too much, especially with the unpredictability of my fibromyalgia.

[Kassia]

@stephanier.1765wow, that's a lot to ask!  I just assumed they offered to pay.  Why not just leave the kids with you at your home in that case?  (just a hypothetical question - not that you should answer)

[stephanier.1765]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

@stephanier.1765wow, that's a lot to ask!  I just assumed they offered to pay.  Why not just leave the kids with you at your home in that case?  (just a hypothetical question - not that you should answer)

I wondered that myself and I might yet offer, but they may want the kids to go. I just don't know.

[katilac]

8 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

No, the cost was on me. 

Wow! So glad you said no. 

dh and I once turned down a free cruise bc we knew we were basically going to end up with 3 extra kids most of the time, lol 

[Arcadia]

28 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

No, the cost was on me. It was another reason I said no. That's a lot of money for us. 

I guess as much. Many years ago, we paid for in-laws vacation to Las Vegas, Grand Canyon and LA (Hollywood and Universal Studios). They asked us to tag along and my husband said we can’t though he was too polite then to say we can’t afford to. Now he just say we are broke if his parents suggest stuff like him buying a new car or going on vacation. 

24 minutes ago, Kassia said:

@stephanier.1765wow, that's a lot to ask!  I just assumed they offered to pay.  Why not just leave the kids with you at your home in that case?  (just a hypothetical question - not that you should answer)

Photo op moments (not kidding). They may want to take family photos on the cruise which includes the kids but they aren’t willing to look after the kids. 

[Arcadia]

32 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

dh and I once turned down a free cruise bc we knew we were basically going to end up with 3 extra kids most of the time, lol 

I’ll take the cruise as babysitting fees that I don’t need to declare as income 😉 However those extra kids have to be my relatives or close buddies’ kids. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

omigosh, there was a fairly recent letter to an advice columnist (from the m-i-l) that sounds exactly like this, right down to creating an entire nursery! Is she the type, lol? It was something like Ask Amy or Dear Prudence. 

 

 

 

For real?? I’m gonna need a link 😂

[katilac]

16 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

For real?? I’m gonna need a link 😂

I will try to find it. Unfortunately, mother-in-law, grandmother, grandchild, nursery, and even they won't let the grandkids come over return a lot of hits in any combination 😄

[Innisfree]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

For real?? I’m gonna need a link 😂

Here’s one candidate, gifted. There may well be others. I don’t think this one is an exact parallel to the situation you described, but there are some similarities.

https://wapo.st/3HPlvi7

[Arcadia]

My late mom was already weak when my kids were born. My maternal grandma passed when I was a toddler and paternal grandma in 1st grade. My parents were also the kind to be very accommodating and would ask if we would like a family vacation and also tell use how much they would chip in for hotel, car rental and such. They would let me do all the planning since my brother wasn’t married yet. So in a way there was a sense of time is running out for me to spend with my mom. Our last family outing was in 2012 and my mom had a hard time walking. 
My husband’s grandma passed at 100 years old (2021) and his parents are still fit enough to go hiking though they have no interest to. So even if they were not mean to me, there is still no urgency to spend time with them. FIL is 82 and MIL is 74. 
 

@stephanier.1765 my parents tried to be helpful in-laws to my brother’s wife but she treat my parents in a very similar way your DIL behave. They need my parents for babysitting sometimes though so my parents get to see their granddaughter. My parents also gave me some money to safekeep for my niece so that I can help if the need arises.  

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

Here’s one candidate, gifted. There may well be others. I don’t think this one is an exact parallel to the situation you described, but there are some similarities.

https://wapo.st/3HPlvi7

That's the one I was thinking about! Lots of bonus crazy in the comments. 

[Clarita]

7 hours ago, katilac said:

My mil is awesome in many ways, but she would definitely do the thing of asking me instead of her son. Katilac, do you think Mr. Katilac would like to do such-and-such? I don't know, but Mr. Katilac is literally sitting on the next sofa, please go ask him, lol. 

I facilitate meet-ups with my MIL. I know it's the exception though. I don't call my MIL "mom" but we have our separate text chat with each other. She texts me instead of my husband because I communicate more than he does. He'll respond "We'll come over" and I'll respond "We'll come over after the kid's nap around 4pm." 

[Grace Hopper]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

That's the one I was thinking about! Lots of bonus crazy in the comments. 

I’ll have to go back for the bonus crazy but I think the response to the letter was terrific! Spot on and succinct. 

[Momto6inIN]

16 hours ago, katilac said:

Bolding by me: I know you're typing off the top of your head, but this veers a little close to 'women have to  carry the mental load' territory. The relationship between you and yours sons should be managed by you and your sons.

Yeah, that's not what I was getting at with my comment 🙂

But I do really truly appreciate the reminder that my relationship with my sons is my and their responsibility and that I will need to continue to work at it - it won't just happen. That gave me a lot of food for thought this morning, so thank you!

[livetoread]

9 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

I’ll have to go back for the bonus crazy but I think the response to the letter was terrific! Spot on and succinct. 

Off topic - Often I'm meh on advice columns, but Carolyn Hax is a treasure. She is able to zero in on the real issues and address them wisely and clearly. If I ever cancelled my WP subscription, I'd miss her the most.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

But I do really truly appreciate the reminder that my relationship with my sons is my and their responsibility and that I will need to continue to work at it - it won't just happen. 

My husband’s aunts made me feel welcomed from when I was introduced as his girlfriend all the way to now. They flew on their own dime for 17hrs to spend a week with us. My kids had a wonderful vacation with them. Same aunts have good relationships not only with their DILs and SILs, but also with their parents.
My husband would tell me when his relatives want to spend time with our kids and we would work out when would be the best time. For example, his relatives coming during exam season would mean our kids would not be thrilled by house guests. 

[katilac]

12 hours ago, Clarita said:

I facilitate meet-ups with my MIL. I know it's the exception though. I don't call my MIL "mom" but we have our separate text chat with each other. She texts me instead of my husband because I communicate more than he does. He'll respond "We'll come over" and I'll respond "We'll come over after the kid's nap around 4pm." 

And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the DIL's 'fault' if she chooses not to do that. 

4 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

Yeah, that's not what I was getting at with my comment 🙂

But I do really truly appreciate the reminder that my relationship with my sons is my and their responsibility and that I will need to continue to work at it - it won't just happen. That gave me a lot of food for thought this morning, so thank you!

Thank you for taking it in the spirit I intended. I should have noted that the first lines of my post were a direct response, but a lot of the rest was much more general and I was 'thinking out loud' to a great extent. 

I do notice that a lot of moms will do a lot of activities with their older daughters, and less so with their sons. Not that they don't see them a lot, but they often see them in the context of family get-togethers, and don't think of taking them to lunch or what-have-you. 

The same is true in reverse, of course: a lot of dads don't make a point of doing a lot of activities with their older daughters, or building a shared interest if there isn't a 'natural' one in existence. 

I think that one-on-one, intentional activities with young adults go a long way toward building a mindset of doing things together in future. Like it's more natural to do things with just your son and the kids, if there's already that precedent of mom and son doing things on their own, and not just in the context of family stuff.