An odd question about grief after death of a loved one: looking for research

[Resilient]

Odd topic. 

Does anyone know of any research (not opinions, but research) that would respond to this practice and its effect on closure, grief, letting go, moving on. I want to  understand the effects on grief, if any, of this practice:  

Widows I know, ages 35, 55, 65, 70 have kept in their homes the cremated remains of their spouses. All of the spouses have been gone for more than 6 years.  The women plan to bury the ashes in the casket with their own bodies (not cremated remains) when that time comes. All four had good marriages.

I'd like to know if there is research that shows the effects, if any, of keeping and planning for co-burial, rather than burying or scattering the remains independent of the survivor's future burial.

I do have a reason for asking, but want to inform myself, if possible, rather than guessing or opining about something outside my experience.

 

[saraha]

No research but that sounds lovely

[Rosie_0801]

Nothing I've ever read acknowledges the complexity of a concept like closure in grief. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

My grandfather did this. His wife died suddenly and fairly young in her 50s(she was 20+ years younger than him).  She had always wanted to be cremated; he always wanted to be buried.  They’d discussed it at some point; though probably they assumed he’d go first and years later his grave would be opened and her cremains placed in, but it happened the other way around.  He was buried and then her urn was placed on top of the casket before the ground was closed.   It had nothing to do with grief; it was their wishes to be buried together but still honor her desire to be cremated.

I wouldn’t assume anything of personal grief based on what people do with cremains.

[Katy]

I just looked on Google scholar and saw references to literature and 9/11, but no social science research on grief and cremains. 

I do know several people who couldn’t afford a proper burial of a loved one, or who put it off and chose cremation because of Covid. They will either buy a double plot for them & a loved one or leave it to their children to do. 

[wintermom]

44 minutes ago, Resilient said:

Odd topic. 

Does anyone know of any research (not opinions, but research) that would respond to this practice and its effect on closure, grief, letting go, moving on. I want to  understand the effects on grief, if any, of this practice:  

Widows I know, ages 35, 55, 65, 70 have kept in their homes the cremated remains of their spouses. All of the spouses have been gone for more than 6 years.  The women plan to bury the ashes in the casket with their own bodies (not cremated remains) when that time comes. All four had good marriages.

I'd like to know if there is research that shows the effects, if any, of keeping and planning for co-burial, rather than burying or scattering the remains independent of the survivor's future burial.

I do have a reason for asking, but want to inform myself, if possible, rather than guessing or opining about something outside my experience.

 

If you want to do research, phone a few funeral homes and ask about costs of urns, storing urns, etc. and use some of that information as it is relevant to decision making and has less to do with emotions and whatever the heck "closure" means to the wider population.

Funeral homes charge for securly storing urns with remains (e.g., $150 for 6 months). Sounds like keeping the urn at home makes sense unless there is a strong reason not to.

Sorry, I don't mean to be abrasive. I just lost my father, and "closure" is a meaningless word to me. It just seems like a made up word that people throw around without even nailing down an actual definition.

Edited March 17, 2022 by wintermom

[Resilient]

18 minutes ago, Katy said:

I just looked on Google scholar and saw references to literature and 9/11, but no social science research on grief and cremains. 

I do know several people who couldn’t afford a proper burial of a loved one, or who put it off and chose cremation because of Covid. They will either buy a double plot for them & a loved one or leave it to their children to do. 

Yes, this is what a family I know is doing. It costs $1000 to open the niche, so they are going to be interred at the same time when both are gone. They were/are in their 90s. One of my relatives had this described plan (above), and then met the man she had always been looking for at age 75. They had 6 years together...but the situation was a bit...awkward, maybe?

 

22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I wouldn’t assume anything of personal grief based on what people do with cremains.

That's what I am trying to do...not assume, but see if there is research.  

 

22 minutes ago, Katy said:

I just looked on Google scholar and saw references to literature and 9/11, but no social science research on grief and cremains. 

I have read some of that research...but I'm wondering whether the widows' arrangements have any impact on their letting go...moving on... Again, I am really trying not to assume anything but see if anything has been researched on this specific practice.  Thank you, though.

[Resilient]

4 minutes ago, wintermom said:

If you want to do research, phone a few funeral homes and ask about costs of urns, storing urns, etc. and use some of that information as it is relevant to decision making and has less to do with emotions and whatever the heck "closure" means to the wider population.

Funeral homes charge for securly storing urns with remains (e.g., $150 for 6 months). Sounds like keeping the urn at home makes sense unless there is a strong reason not to.

Thank you.  I am (unfortunately) well acquainted with the costs, storage issues and so on...  I guess I must have worded my question badly...I'm really asking to see if there is research about the impact on the survivors (if any) of the practice I described.  But thank you for contributing.

[wintermom]

Just now, Resilient said:

Thank you.  I am (unfortunately) well acquainted with the costs, storage issues and so on...  I guess I must have worded my question badly...I'm really asking to see if there is research about the impact on the survivors (if any) of the practice I described.  But thank you for contributing.

What kind of "impact" are you trying to measure?

[athena1277]

I don’t know of any research, but I think it matters in at least some cases.  We had to keep postponing scattering my dad’s ashes until 9 months after he passed away. I didn’t realize just how much the wait was affecting my mom until we were driving away after finally doing it.  She said it was like a burden lifted.  She needed that final goodbye to happen so she could start to fully move on to life without him.

[wintermom]

37 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Nothing I've ever read acknowledges the complexity of a concept like closure in grief. 

Even the word seems to assume that there is a measurable "end." No, I don't think that there is. 

[MercyA]

You have probably already looked at this study?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7333516/

It doesn't directly answer your question, but there are a lot of linked studies in the article that may be helpful. For example:

A longitudinal study conducted by Wijngaards-de Meij et al. (2008) examined the specific impact over time of circumstances surrounding death and burial. This investigation compared grief levels following cremation or burial. Similar levels of grief were found irrespective of the choice, as measured over time. In this study saying goodbye, presenting the body for viewing, was associated with lower levels of grief over time. One cannot conclude that saying goodbye reduces grief over time, but only that there is a significant relationship between these two variables.

ETA: Wait! There is something directly relevant. I didn't read far enough:

Disposal of the Ashes

At T2, participants were asked about arrangements regarding the ashes, which were answered by 233 participants. Arrangements were made to bury or scatter the ashes with friends and family present by 69.7% (n = 109) of the participants, followed by 25.7% (n = 56) where the ashes were still retained by the family, and for 19.7% (n = 43), the ashes were scattered or buried without the presence of family and friends.4 For 10 participants (1%), another arrangement was made or the participant did not know what was done with the ashes. Confined to a comparison of the first three groups, level of grief differed between the groups, both at T1 and T2, F(2) = 4.40, p = .14, with grief being highest for the participants, where the ashes were still retained by the family. Changes over time in grief followed a similar pattern for all three groups (Wilks λ = 0.978, F(2, 192) = 2.11, p = .123, see Table 1.

Edited March 17, 2022 by MercyA

[MercyA]

From the study above. This is interesting, because I think that in DC's (direct cremations) the cremains are usually given directly to the bereaved, right?

Traditional Versus Direct Cremation as Predictors of Grief

Comparing levels and course of grief between those who had a service at the crematorium or elsewhere with the coffin present and those who had a direct cremation, the former reported mean scores of 22.9 (SD = 21.6) at T1 and 21.0 (SD = 19.7) at T2, while the latter reported 20.1 (SD = 15.8) and 17.7 (SD = 14.7), respectively. Neither the main effect of cremation service—F(1)=0.939, p = .54, η2p =0.002—nor the difference in course turned out to be significant—Wilks F(1, 216) = 0.029, p = .866, η2p = 0.000.

Looking at relevant background differences between DC’s and traditional cremations (e.g., age participant, age deceased, relationship with and closeness to the deceased, cause of death [e.g., long illness vs. sudden illness death] income, income change), no significant differences were found.

Edited March 17, 2022 by MercyA

[fairfarmhand]

11 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Even the word seems to assume that there is a measurable "end." No, I don't think that there is. 

You are correct. The missing feels differently over time, but the missing will always be there. 

[wintermom]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

You are correct. The missing feels differently over time, but the missing will always be there. 

And if the querie is about whether "closure" can be achieved by burying or not burying something at time X, that's going to be an interesting one to prove. Do people even start actually feeling grief at a funeral 2 weeks after the death of a loved one? My sense is not at all.

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, wintermom said:

And if the querie is about whether "closure" can be achieved by burying or not burying something at time X, that's going to be an interesting one to prove. Do people even start actually feeling grief at a funeral 2 weeks after the death of a loved one? My sense is not at all.

most times around here the funeral is about three to five days after the death. I wouldnt' say that was grief at all. Mostly it's shock and a wave of emotion so strong it doesn't even have a name. I remember feeling nothing but an empty numbness at my mother's funeral. Grief is more of a process than anything else. 

My dad still misses my mom to this day, even though shes been gone 11 years and he's remarried. He calls me on her birthday and their anniversaries. He dearly loves his second wife. But mom will always be the love of his youth. He will be buried next to her. And there is a spot on the other side of him where I anticipate my sweet stepmom will be buried. 

One can dearly love someone, grieve and miss them. And still remarry and move on. 

 

[MercyA]

Another one: The ambiguity of human ashes: Exploring encounters with cremated remains in the Netherlands.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07481187.2016.1257882

Edited March 17, 2022 by MercyA

[TheReader]

This is an interesting conversation. I've no idea of any research, but am going to delve into the article/links/study that Mercy posted above. 

My dad had my stepmom cremated; he retained her ashes in an urn/container he made himself, and his stated plan at that time was to be cremated himself when the time comes and his ashes mixed with hers. 

As she passed away very young/while my dad was still fairly young, a few years later he remarried (they've now been together closing in on 13 or 14 yrs; it is possible he and his 3rd wife will have as much time together, if not more, as what Dad and my stepmom had) -- I've not inquired as to his updated wishes about all of that. I cannot imagine he'll still want to have his ashes mixed with my stepmom's (nor do I know what he wants to do with hers at this point....). 

[TheReader]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

most times around here the funeral is about three to five days after the death. I wouldnt' say that was grief at all. Mostly it's shock and a wave of emotion so strong it doesn't even have a name. I remember feeling nothing but an empty numbness at my mother's funeral. Grief is more of a process than anything else. 

My dad still misses my mom to this day, even though shes been gone 11 years and he's remarried. He calls me on her birthday and their anniversaries. He dearly loves his second wife. But mom will always be the love of his youth. He will be buried next to her. And there is a spot on the other side of him where I anticipate my sweet stepmom will be buried. 

One can dearly love someone, grieve and miss them. And still remarry and move on. 

 

this is beautiful; I know that my dad still dearly misses my stepmom as well, though he also dearly loves his current wife. I don't know about them all being buried near each other, but how lovely that your dad and stepmom will be buried all together like that with your mom. that's really lovely. 

And re: that last sentence -- yes. 

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

One can dearly love someone, grieve and miss them. And still remarry and move on. 

Yes. It's like taking two parallel journeys at the same time. 

[Resilient]

Thank you, Mercy, for finding that research.  I had not read that, and my research skills are not really that great.  

Re: "closure": One never really "closes" when one has loved...love abides, and love can grow again. I have many beautiful stories in my family that show this to be true. For that matter, I have been married in a faithful relationship for many decades but still love my first beau. (It would have been a terrible marriage, though.)

The intention is not to put conditions or a timeline on grief.  I want to understand what helps the bereaved, and of course that varies by individual.  Longitudinal research can show a "trend"--but like all statistics, any one person can be a complete outlier on a statistical line; even most people in the study can be so.  The line can still be useful in gaining general understanding. 

Thank you all for your responses. 

[Resilient]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

What kind of "impact" are you trying to measure?

Hmmm...I'm observing four friends with this plan and there are other women who have done otherwise (buried or scattered the ashes) and I am trying to understand whether this burial-with-me-later plan has an impact on their grief, on the way they speak of their beloved.  Mostly I want to know how to stand alongside them without sticking my foot in my mouth.

Research has already showed me that keeping my mouth shut is one way to accomplish that.

[fairfarmhand]

I really don't think that burial or non burial really affects things one way or another. (anecdotal) It seems that those who are going to get stuck in deep grieving are going to do that regardless. I know multiple folks who grieved hard for long periods of time and struggled to accept the new reality and their loved one was buried within a few days of death. 

 

[Rosie_0801]

I got written up in the police report as being eccentric for taking washing off the line in the few hours after my son had died and for not having hysterics. 

From my perspective, the washing was dry and it seems like bad manners to bother people who are already not enjoying their day. 

So, if you're looking for best practice, I'd say that anyone who thinks they have nailed that formula lacks imagination. It never occurred to any report writer that I was being considerate rather than something negative. A culture's comfort levels and an individual's can differ hugely without the individual actually crossing lines into unhealthiness or mental illness. But then, it depends who is writing the report.

But yeah, keeping your mouth shut is probably the best thing to do. Their decisions may evolve in time, or their reasoning, or whatever they need to think or feel to get along. It's best if we are allowed to evolve at our own pace.

[Indigo Blue]

48 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

A culture's comfort levels and an individual's can differ hugely without the individual actually crossing lines into unhealthiness or mental illness. But

So very true.

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, Resilient said:

Hmmm...I'm observing four friends with this plan and there are other women who have done otherwise (buried or scattered the ashes) and I am trying to understand whether this burial-with-me-later plan has an impact on their grief, on the way they speak of their beloved.  Mostly I want to know how to stand alongside them without sticking my foot in my mouth.

Research has already showed me that keeping my mouth shut is one way to accomplish that.

Why should your opinion on their decision be any of your business? Unless you are the primary decision maker, your thoughts should remain your own.

Respect your friends' decisions. Make your own decisions for yourself and your partner/dependent children. 

Perhaps, as an alternative to seeking information through research, you can gather rich qualitative data by simply talking to these women and asking about their thoughts, hopes, and desires. Just ask the questions, and let them tell you their story.

Edited March 18, 2022 by wintermom

[livetoread]

Because the researchers didn't/can't randomly assign people to scatter ashes or keep ashes, the results are really limited. We don't know if there is already a difference between those who decide to keep the ashes with them and those who decide not to. Maybe those who decide to keep the ashes have deeper grief to begin with, and that's why they can't part with them. Who knows? But really decent research in this area is going to be tough, so I think you might do better focusing on your situation in another way.

Both dh and I plan on being cremated and if he goes first, I definitely plan on keeping his ashes at home. When I die, we will have our ashes mingled and then dispersed somewhere in nature that is lovely (kids' choice). I have already said that if I die and dh remarries or has a long term partner, I'm fine with new partner joining us as long as kids approve.

Edited March 18, 2022 by livetoread

[Starr]

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Nothing I've ever read acknowledges the complexity of a concept like closure in grief. 

This.

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Resilient said:

Hmmm...I'm observing four friends with this plan and there are other women who have done otherwise (buried or scattered the ashes) and I am trying to understand whether this burial-with-me-later plan has an impact on their grief, on the way they speak of their beloved.  Mostly I want to know how to stand alongside them without sticking my foot in my mouth.

Research has already showed me that keeping my mouth shut is one way to accomplish that.

Please do keep those thoughts to yourself.

Someone very close to me had very negative comments about how "disrespectful" it was of my Dad to remarry after my mother's death. Despite the fact that my dad still misses my mom, and yet loves my lovely special stepmom very much. And that each of his three children were supportive of his finding a new spouse, this person still had ugly harsh things to say. 

Grief is so unique. And nonlinear. So, yeah, I would allow these friends of yours to handle their grief in their own unique ways free from comment and with only loving supportive comments. 

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Resilient said:

Hmmm...I'm observing four friends with this plan and there are other women who have done otherwise (buried or scattered the ashes) and I am trying to understand whether this burial-with-me-later plan has an impact on their grief, on the way they speak of their beloved.  Mostly I want to know how to stand alongside them without sticking my foot in my mouth.

Research has already showed me that keeping my mouth shut is one way to accomplish that.

I’m not sure why cremation/keeping the ashes would make any difference in how you talk to your friends, versus if their deceased husbands had been buried in a cemetery or interred in a mausoleum. Why would it even come up in conversation?

 I feel like I’m missing something, because it’s obvious that you care about your friends, but I can’t figure out why this would matter at all.

[Carrie12345]

I can’t imagine a study quantifying grief through so many variables. I feel like “content with choice” must be a huge aspect, which I would guess has played a big impact during Covid, with expedited cremations and delayed group mourning. I know it has disrupted a LOT of mourning and “closure” in my life.

In both my and my dh’s families, there are lots of urns in homes. Who has whose ashes is a weird topic of conversation, but they’re there. Few have been buried or scattered. None of it seems unhealthy to me, regardless of differing beliefs. What’s healthy to me is being content (in as much as one can be) with their arrangement.  Talking someone out of their arrangement strikes me as very unhealthy.

My own personal issue with ashes is a deep fear of losing them or having some sort of movie scene accident with them. My pets might be packed away in a box, but it’s important to me to know where that box is! And I am somehow disturbed that my grandparents’ ashes are in separate houses.  I can’t explain it, as I have no religious beliefs about death or afterlife, but they should be together, dang it!

Dh is firm about wanting to be cremated, but he’s never mentioned his ashes. I can’t think of anywhere he’d want them scattered, and I doubt he’d want to pay for mausoleum space (nor do I know where the nearest one is), so I suppose they’d hang around here if I’m alive longer. So what?

[thewellerman]

I understand your concern.  There was a time when I learned someone had the ashes of both their parents.  I was at both funerals (which were years apart), and the family clearly had some unhealthy patterns.  The individual who kept the ashes was unstable and disturbed, and the urns didn't help that at all.  I think, however, in this case, keeping the urns was a symptom and not a cause.  Interestingly, 10 years later, the family had both urns buried and a memorial placed, and the individual seems to be some better.  By no means okay, but better.  Again, I suspect the ability to bury the urns was because of the improvement, not the other way around.  

So, I would focus on the other things you are seeing.  Maybe there is something telling you that your friends need to process more, or their grief pattern is following a very atypical course and is harmful to them.  I'm not saying that grief is linear, or everyone should do or expect the same things, but there is still a wide range of "normal", and things far outside of that could signal a need for help. 

[sassenach]

12 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I’m not sure why cremation/keeping the ashes would make any difference in how you talk to your friends, versus if their deceased husbands had been buried in a cemetery or interred in a mausoleum. Why would it even come up in conversation?

 I feel like I’m missing something, because it’s obvious that you care about your friends, but I can’t figure out why this would matter at all.

I think I'd be enraged if I found out that a friend was researching whether my choice of handling my husband's remains was impacting my grieving.

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, thewellerman said:

I understand your concern.  There was a time when I learned someone had the ashes of both their parents.  I was at both funerals (which were years apart), and the family clearly had some unhealthy patterns.  The individual who kept the ashes was unstable and disturbed, and the urns didn't help that at all.  I think, however, in this case, keeping the urns was a symptom and not a cause.  Interestingly, 10 years later, the family had both urns buried and a memorial placed, and the individual seems to be some better.  By no means okay, but better.  Again, I suspect the ability to bury the urns was because of the improvement, not the other way around.  

So, I would focus on the other things you are seeing.  Maybe there is something telling you that your friends need to process more, or their grief pattern is following a very atypical course and is harmful to them.  I'm not saying that grief is linear, or everyone should do or expect the same things, but there is still a wide range of "normal", and things far outside of that could signal a need for help. 

I think it's very common for people to have their parents' ashes. It can be very comforting to people to feel that their parents are still with them in a way, and not buried in a cemetery somewhere that might be very far away. People do it with pets all the time, too. I don't find anything at all unusual about it.

[thewellerman]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think it's very common for people to have their parents' ashes. It can be very comforting to people to feel that their parents are still with them in a way, and not buried in a cemetery somewhere that might be very far away. People do it with pets all the time, too. I don't find anything at all unusual about it.

Yes, definitely.  Totally normal.  

I was just saying that it was obviously an extension of deep issues in this case, and keeping the ashes was because of that.  Keeping the ashes is normal, all the other stuff wasn't.  So, perhaps the OP is focusing on the ashes, but the real issue isn't there at all. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, sassenach said:

I think I'd be enraged if I found out that a friend was researching whether my choice of handling my husband's remains was impacting my grieving.

Yeah, that's not something I would suggest sharing with them! I can't imagine that anyone would be happy to find out something like that.

I would immediately jump to the conclusion that my friend thought it was weird that I was keeping the ashes, and I would be pretty insulted by that judgment. (I'm not saying that Resilient feels that way -- I'm just saying that I would probably suspect that, if I was her friend.) Also, I think grieving is something that everyone does in different ways, so I don't think it's even possible to quantify what may or may not be impacting it. 

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I think it's very common for people to have their parents' ashes. It can be very comforting to people to feel that their parents are still with them in a way, and not buried in a cemetery somewhere that might be very far away. People do it with pets all the time, too. I don't find anything at all unusual about it.

I have my father's ashes.  He died almost 8 years ago and wanted his ashes scattered but I haven't figured out the right place to do that yet.  I do find it comforting to have his ashes with me - I keep them in my laundry room where I spend a lot of time.  ❤️ 

ETA - I think it would make him happy that I have his ashes with me and he wouldn't feel like I went against his wishes at all.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Kassia

[Resilient]

I wonder if any of the comments would have been different if the following were known:

• I have done "qualitative research" - for 3, 6, 9, and 12 years respectively - with these women. I've never once "advised" them re: their grieving or future plans. I have listened and asked them for their thoughts.
• Two of the women asked me whether I thought this decision was impacting their grieving. Rather than opine in ignorance, I decided to see if there was some information available from a broad spectrum. I told them I would find out what I could. They thanked me as they did not want to do the research themselves because it was too sad. 
• My question was very specific and not at all a judgment about anyone's decision. It was a question. I could tell you about my personal situation re: retained, scattered, buried ashes; burial experiences and plans and so on, but I won't.  Not now.
• I see that there was a lot of triggering. I am sorry for that. I'm glad some people assumed the best and not the worst about my intentions or actions. And thanks to MercyA for pointing me to the research she found.  

And now I'll let this topic (from my end) Rest In Peace.

 

[MercyA]

@Resilient, there wasn't anything wrong with your question. I thought it was interesting. Glad if I could help a little.

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Resilient said:

I wonder if any of the comments would have been different if the following were known:

• I have done "qualitative research" - for 3, 6, 9, and 12 years respectively - with these women. I've never once "advised" them re: their grieving or future plans. I have listened and asked them for their thoughts.
• Two of the women asked me whether I thought this decision was impacting their grieving. Rather than opine in ignorance, I decided to see if there was some information available from a broad spectrum. I told them I would find out what I could. They thanked me as they did not want to do the research themselves because it was too sad. 
• My question was very specific and not at all a judgment about anyone's decision. It was a question. I could tell you about my personal situation re: retained, scattered, buried ashes; burial experiences and plans and so on, but I won't.  Not now.
• I see that there was a lot of triggering. I am sorry for that. I'm glad some people assumed the best and not the worst about my intentions or actions. And thanks to MercyA for pointing me to the research she found.  

And now I'll let this topic (from my end) Rest In Peace.

 

Being asked changes everything. And they asked for your opinion.

I think there's a difference too between keeping an urn of ashes in a closet, verses keeping it on one's nightstand where it is seen all the time and thought about.

[katilac]

On 3/18/2022 at 6:36 PM, fairfarmhand said:

I think there's a difference too between keeping an urn of ashes in a closet, verses keeping it on one's nightstand where it is seen all the time and thought about.

Well, my dh better not keep me in a closet! I will be reentering the mortal realm to discuss that with him as needed. 😄