Potential issues with worldwide food distribution as a result of the invasion of Urkaine.

[Faith-manor]

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/2/27/22950805/russia-ukraine-food-prices-hunger-invasion-war

It is so painful to think about people already suffering hunger potentially suffering even more over this!

I would like to keep this discussion as apolitical as possible, and just discuss the food issues of war if we can manage it.

Ukraine would normally begin planting in about three weeks, so if their farmlands are fields of war, that isn't going to be happening, and I am not sure if anything about the war footing would affect Russian farmers or not. My assumption is that the US will need to step up and export more food/crops than is currently planned which of course has the potential to impact US food prices and some availability although this is just something that can't be predicted. The other unknown is if Russia will withhold any of its wheat from export to say countries like Egypt if they were to condemn the invasion.

My thoughts go back to the Victory Gardens of WWII. Most people cannot grow food to feed their families. Many, especially urban dwellers, cannot even make a dent in supplementing food for their families. But rural dwellers and even suburban dwellers with a decent size yard and a willingness to tell their HOA's to pipe down, can grow some salad greens, some tomatoes, some pots of strawberries, etc. I was reading in the Farmer's Almanac that victory gardening produced 40% of the vegetables and fruits civilians consumed during WWII allowing more crop yield from farmers to be diverted to the war effort, to feeding displaced persons, to being exported to allies. It was interesting to me that this many civilians were willing to get into the "let's row together" boat simultaneously. We don't really have that now. But in terms of morale, I think if this drags on and planting season approaches, it would be great if there was some sort of push for the concept, maybe free seed and potting soil, containers, etc. through 4H extension offices, advertising through the Department of Ag. I would love to see schools shift their "prep for the test" ideas of science education and take April and May to have elementary and middle school classrooms grow windowsill edible plants, have some lessons in hydroponics, field trips to local family owned farms and orchards, take some baskets of tomatoes to the local farmer's market to sell, handle the money, make change, or give them to the kitchen staff at school to make salads and spaghetti sauce and then have the satisfaction of enjoying the fruits of their labors. But, I know that is too idealistic to ever happen.

At any rate, we have talked in the other garden thread about our gardening aspirations for this year. Has anyone thought about expanding their vision due to the invasion? Has anyone thought about increased food insecurity in countries dependent on exports from that region? It appears that Egypt is looking to cut deals with other producers as they have been dependent on Russia and Ukraine for a while.

[Katy]

DH and I were just discussing a victory garden if this turns into WW3. 
 

I’m hoping the intelligence reports that Russia is low on munitions and cannot continue this for more than a few more days are correct.

[Grace Hopper]

This might be the year I build a greenhouse in the back yard. 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

DH and I were just discussing a victory garden if this turns into WW3. 
 

I’m hoping the intelligence reports that Russia is low on munitions and cannot continue this for more than a few more days are correct.

I really hope that too! I am just not sure if that is accurate. Putin is so good at disseminating disinformation, and I could see this being a tactic to throw NATO off balance to thinking it will be over with soon.

Mark and I were just discussing doubling the size of our raised beds. So far I have only been able to grow tomatoes for earing fresh not enough to freeze or can for supplementing in the off season, broccoli for again eating in season but not freeze, eggplant, bell peppers, some herbs. We have terrible soil here so it is more cost effective to do a raised bed and fill with good dirt and compost, than it is to take a large area of the yard and try to make that sandy soil so heavily amended that it turns I to loam. But if we doubled the raised be, I could freeze or can tomatoes, freeze some broccoli, and dehydrate peppers for winter. I also have an area that I could amend just enough to put in some asparagus. We wouldn't of course get to harvest that this year, but 2023 we would have it. If we could manage a triple of the raised bed, I could put in leeks (which I love roasted but also dehydrated for soups and stews), a lot of salad greens, some green onions, and some green beans.

I am intrigued by the potatoes bags mentioned in the other thread because our basement has an area that is pretty close to the perfect climate for root vegetable storage.

[Serenade]

I'm hoping to expand the veggies I grow.  I had a large crop of tomatoes and cucumbers last year, along with a reasonable amount of peppers and lot of herbs. My beans and Swiss chard were obliterated by the very significant deer population we have, and the ever populous squirrel population did some damage to our tomatoes and devastated our small plum harvest.  I'd love to eat the deer 😄, but we live in a neighborhood so that's easier said than done.  I imagine if there were a true crisis, rules about hunting would not be enforced and the deer population would quickly be diminished.  Not sure if people would be quite as willing to eat the squirrel population...I guess if they were hungry enough they would.  Anyhow, I'm going to try squash this summer.  Apparently deer don't like it very much, although they will nibble it, too.  And I've got Florida Broadleaf mustard that has overwintered, even with temps down to 12 degrees and a layer of sleet on top of it. The leaves got quite freeze-burned, and I'm surprised it survived, but it's growing again and I hope to have enough to start eating it next month. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Serenade said:

I'm hoping to expand the veggies I grow.  I had a large crop of tomatoes and cucumbers last year, along with a reasonable amount of peppers and lot of herbs. My beans and Swiss chard were obliterated by the very significant deer population we have, and the ever populous squirrel population did some damage to our tomatoes and devastated our small plum harvest.  I'd love to eat the deer 😄, but we live in a neighborhood so that's easier said than done.  I imagine if there were a true crisis, rules about hunting would not be enforced and the deer population would quickly be diminished.  Not sure if people would be quite as willing to eat the squirrel population...I guess if they were hungry enough they would.  Anyhow, I'm going to try squash this summer.  Apparently deer don't like it very much, although they will nibble it, too.  And I've got Florida Broadleaf mustard that has overwintered, even with temps down to 12 degrees and a layer of sleet on top of it. The leaves got quite freeze-burned, and I'm surprised it survived, but it's growing again and I hope to have enough to start eating it next month. 

The deer population is really bad here and when the herds get too big, they become diseased, and that spread from the deer to the cows. Our state is actually begging for more hunters. But fewer and fewer people hunt, and the natural predator that used to keep them from becoming overpopulated, the wolf, hasn't been on the loose here in well, forever or at least a REALLY long time. The Oscoda County herd is probably going to have to be put down by the DNR in conjunction with hunters. I don't think any of them will be edible due to bovine tuberculosis. 

If your garden area gets really, really dark at night, something that has been known to work a little bit is to have the menfolk of the household "water the garden" if you get my drift. Apparently, that human scent may be a bit off putting to them.

Squirrels are just frustrating. Yay for your mustard greens!

[Carol in Cal.]

My husband says that squirrel tastes really good.  They are protected where we live though.  That’s why I can’t have nut trees.  They strip them before the nuts are even ripe.

Faith, I wonder whether potatoes would grow well in your sandy soil?  I think that that is what they like.  And they store well and can be used for months after harvest.

In general, growing a little food is just good sense IMO.  I want to put in a plug for my favorites—fruit trees and herbs.  Herbs thrive on neglect (perfect for me, LOL) and are very easy to grow and maintain.  Some are annuals in many climates, but some, like rosemary and juniper, are perennials and cold-hardy.  A little goes a long way and you can save a lot of money by growing them and drying them, which is pretty easy—mostly just tie in bundles and hang upside down.  Fruit trees—OK, in cold climates citrus is not going to do well, but stone fruits and apples grow in many of those areas.  It’s so simple!  Just buy a dwarf tree, stick it in the ground, and water during drought periods for the first few years until the roots are extended.  Harvest and enjoy.  Blueberries are a bush fruit that grows in very cold regions as well.  

Also, for those in cold areas, “This Organic Life” is the story of a family that achieved vegetable self-sufficiency in upstate New York, so I’d suggest using it to picture how to do that in similar climates.

[Grace Hopper]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The deer population is really bad here and when the herds get too big, they become diseased, and that spread from the deer to the cows. Our state is actually begging for more hunters. But fewer and fewer people hunt, and the natural predator that used to keep them from becoming overpopulated, the wolf, hasn't been on the loose here in well, forever or at least a REALLY long time. The Oscoda County herd is probably going to have to be put down by the DNR in conjunction with hunters. I don't think any of them will be edible due to bovine tuberculosis. 

If your garden area gets really, really dark at night, something that has been known to work a little bit is to have the menfolk of the household "water the garden" if you get my drift. Apparently, that human scent may be a bit off putting to them.

Squirrels are just frustrating. Yay for your mustard greens!

I think human hair clippings are supposed to also help, and garden lore says the same about Irish spring soap chunked and scattered around the garden perimeter. 

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 

I want to put in a plug for my favorites—fruit trees and herbs.  Herbs thrive on neglect (perfect for me, LOL) and are very easy to grow and maintain.  

LOL, my sentiments exactly. Any plant that thrives in criminal neglect, is the plant for me!!

[thewellerman]

I'm thinking along the same lines.  I have 4 raised beds now, but I'm considering expanding.  My money might be better spent buying canned foods now, instead of spending a bunch to get a garden going.  The following book is for very beginners, and is a little more inspirational than practical, but it is a starting point for what I have in mind.  

https://www.amazon.com/Backyard-Homestead-Produce-food-quarter/dp/1603421386/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=34NLLKA267YUY&keywords=backyard+homestead&qid=1645984731&sprefix=backyard+homestead%2Caps%2C377&sr=8-1

[Serenade]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

 

If your garden area gets really, really dark at night, something that has been known to work a little bit is to have the menfolk of the household "water the garden" if you get my drift. Apparently, that human scent may be a bit off putting to them.

 

I probably shouldn't admit it, but this has happened before 😄

[Carrie12345]

I don’t have a lot I can do this season, and it freaks me out a little bit.  I *might* start more seeds than I can possibly deal with because I have friends who have room to grow but just don’t.  If things were to get extra sketchy (like, enough for the average person to be concerned) in the near future, I can probably talk them into arrangements.

[Serenade]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 Fruit trees—OK, in cold climates citrus is not going to do well, but stone fruits and apples grow in many of those areas.  It’s so simple!  Just buy a dwarf tree, stick it in the ground, and water during drought periods for the first few years until the roots are extended.  Harvest and enjoy.

One thing to keep in mind is that squirrels love fruit, and they can do a lot of damage and do it rapidly.   Every time we think we've taken care of the squirrel problem, another one or two come over.  My husband is trying a new trick this year for our plums -- he's going to put some kind of metal collar around the trunk to see if it will limit the squirrels' ability to climb the tree.  I don't have high hopes.  We have a squirrelanator trap, and that has been very helpful, but we still lose so many plums to the squirrels.  Deer like plums, too.  I put chicken wire flat on the ground all around the trees and that helps to act as a barrier because they don't like to walk on it.  And I've also been known to surround my plum trees with lawn furniture as well.  The deer can't jump it when it's close to the trees.  But squirrels can jump, climb and wreak all kinds of havoc.

[fairfarmhand]

While I may not expand drastically what I already plant, I am planning to be more diligent about spraying my fruit trees so I might have siome apples.

But the biggie is that I'm planning on doing feeder pigs this fall. We took a few years off from that, but I think we may need to get back to it. We usually do one beef a year also. 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

The deer population is really bad here and when the herds get too big, they become diseased, and that spread from the deer to the cows. Our state is actually begging for more hunters. But fewer and fewer people hunt, and the natural predator that used to keep them from becoming overpopulated, the wolf, hasn't been on the loose here in well, forever or at least a REALLY long time. The Oscoda County herd is probably going to have to be put down by the DNR in conjunction with hunters. I don't think any of them will be edible due to bovine tuberculosis. 

If your garden area gets really, really dark at night, something that has been known to work a little bit is to have the menfolk of the household "water the garden" if you get my drift. Apparently, that human scent may be a bit off putting to them.

Squirrels are just frustrating. Yay for your mustard greens!

 

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

My husband says that squirrel tastes really good.  They are protected where we live though.  That’s why I can’t have nut trees.  They strip them before the nuts are even ripe.

Faith, I wonder whether potatoes would grow well in your sandy soil?  I think that that is what they like.  And they store well and can be used for months after harvest.

In general, growing a little food is just good sense IMO.  I want to put in a plug for my favorites—fruit trees and herbs.  Herbs thrive on neglect (perfect for me, LOL) and are very easy to grow and maintain.  Some are annuals in many climates, but some, like rosemary and juniper, are perennials and cold-hardy.  A little goes a long way and you can save a lot of money by growing them and drying them, which is pretty easy—mostly just tie in bundles and hang upside down.  Fruit trees—OK, in cold climates citrus is not going to do well, but stone fruits and apples grow in many of those areas.  It’s so simple!  Just buy a dwarf tree, stick it in the ground, and water during drought periods for the first few years until the roots are extended.  Harvest and enjoy.  Blueberries are a bush fruit that grows in very cold regions as well.  

Also, for those in cold areas, “This Organic Life” is the story of a family that achieved vegetable self-sufficiency in upstate New York, so I’d suggest using it to picture how to do that in similar climates.

I am hoping that as meat prices rise, people will again start hunting the deer. Which will lead to a decrease in coyotes too.

My dd hit one in her car this week. It's not drivable. Stupid deer.

Fruit trees take a LOT more work here. The bugs and the humidity mean that spraying is a MUST.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

 

I am hoping that as meat prices rise, people will again start hunting the deer. Which will lead to a decrease in coyotes too.

My dd hit one in her car this week. It's not drivable. Stupid deer.

Fruit trees take a LOT more work here. The bugs and the humidity mean that spraying is a MUST.

We have so many deer/car accidents here. It is a huge problem! Motorcycle deer accidents are nearly always fatal so it makes me nervous whenever I see people road biking it through our rural area at night.

[prairiewindmomma]

Honestly, I think the areas of the world that are going to be most affected are Africa and parts of the Middle East, where most Ukrainian wheat and sunflowers are typically exported. If the US has a decent growing summer, we should have a good summer of exports.

Things honestly are most likely to get dicey around the rare mineral exports—palladium, lithium, and things in that area. US food prices will also be up because of gas prices if this goes on for long—and even that may not be. 

[Pawz4me]

13 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Honestly, I think the areas of the world that are going to be most affected are Africa and parts of the Middle East, where most Ukrainian wheat and sunflowers are typically exported. If the US has a decent growing summer, we should have a good summer of exports.

Things honestly are most likely to get dicey around the rare mineral exports—palladium, lithium, and things in that area. US food prices will also be up because of gas prices if this goes on for long—and even that may not be. 

Yes, this.

We could grow a good sized garden here (if we could keep the squirrels, groundhogs, rabbits, etc. away) but I don't see it in any way being worth the effort, let alone paying off monetarily. I'm much more inclined to keep piddling with my flowers and supporting the local farm stand and farmers' markets for fresh produce.

ETA: But . . DH and I are putting in some more raised beds, and we will be lining the (pressure treated) boards with plastic. Just in case we ever do want/need to grow food. Because being prepared is always a good thing.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Pawz4me

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

DH and I were just discussing a victory garden if this turns into WW3. 
 

I’m hoping the intelligence reports that Russia is low on munitions and cannot continue this for more than a few more days are correct.

Yeah. The price of produce is getting nuts here. So I’d already bitten the bullet and decided to put in as large a garden as I possibly can. Which will be a major learning experience for the household bc I am not known for my green thumb at all.  I sure hope I at least recoup the cost of the putting in the garden. 

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes, this.

We could grow a good sized garden here (if we could keep the squirrels, groundhogs, rabbits, etc. away) but I don't see it in any way being worth the effort, let alone paying off monetarily. I'm much more inclined to keep piddling with my flowers and supporting the local farm stand and farmers' markets for fresh produce.

ETA: But . . DH and I are putting in some more raised beds, and we will be lining the (pressure treated) boards with plastic. Just in case we ever do want/need to grow food. Because being prepared is always a good thing.

Where I think it is beneficial is if grain prices rise because of exporting food to make up for potential fall off of Russian and Ukraine exports to those nations. We won't have food shortages here, but probably more price hikes. That always affects our own working poor. Having produce to share or simply to help offset the grocery bill might be preferable. I would like to have more to give to our local food pantry and especially in light of the fact that we could see even more price increases due to this. We have already seen another shocking price increase in fuel. Nearly 50 cents a gallon in the last four days. That is going to cause shipping prices to go up. And when cost rises at the grocerys store, donations go down at the food pantry. 

But I also do not have any faith that the war in Ukraine will be over before planting time, and then the potential of this being used to raise food prices worldwide to a level that leaves even more people hungry. I would love for surplus and bumper crops from the US to be given, just out and out given, to North African nations, as well as nations such as Yemen. I am sure the US will demand payment however because money is all anyone cares about anymore.

Mostly I wish there was something simple but meaningful that could be an impetus to get the nation less divided, but that is probably a total pipe dream.

I am rambling, and mostly because one nephew is talking about finding a way to volunteer to fight in Ukraine, and another is being sent to Europe, and so it hits extra close to home, and my brain wanders.

[regentrude]

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by regentrude

[thewellerman]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

I don't plan to grow enough right now to feed my family.  I couldn't have had a garden at my last house because animals would have eaten everything, but now I live in a subdivision and don't have that problem.  We will just slowly add to what we are doing and work it into our daily lives.  Using raised beds, filled with good dirt, allows us to avoid a lot of labor.  No weeding, and we can plant much closer together.  I'm planning to grow quick growing and reliable plants this year, which will allow me to spend more money on the foods that are too expensive or difficult for me to grow.  Specifically, lettuces and peas in the spring, then green beans, cherry tomatoes, and zucchini in the summer. 

[Clemsondana]

I think that during WWII there was also the reality that more people were not far removed from an agricultural background.  My relatives who lived in the city/suburbs at that time had grown up on farms and knew how to grow and process food.  It doesn't take much skill or knowledge to grow some tomatoes, lettuce, and cucumbers for eating during the summer, but to get any substantial percentage of your diet takes commitment.  Blueberries and fruit trees take years to yield, and during those years you still have to do work.  It's taken us a while to learn the ins-and-outs of pruning to minimize fungal infection, and figure out the regimen of treatments that need to be done in the off-season in order to get edible fruit (apples in our area as subject to fungal infections that cycle through spruce trees, so there is no way to eliminate it).  Gardening to get enough food to preserve is a part-time job - our family easily puts in 20 hours a week or more for several months of the year.  Usually somebody picks produce anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hrs several days a week, depending on whether we are picking tomoatoes or beans, and then I spend 1-4 hours processing the food.  It's a running joke becasue I'm always showing up at the kids' games or waiting in the parking lot with a big tub of beans or pes to break or shell.  

There's also the difference in cooking.  We freeze food for winter and try to eat as much fresh as we can during the summer, but many cooks no longer have the idea of coming up with lots of ways to eat the same few things.  My family is great about this, and I've come up with some new recipes that use our summer staples, but people don't seem to cook that way as often now.  The garden is probably why I never got into meal planning...for months, our meal plan is...'Well, we have lots of squash...' and then I try to figure out what to do with it.  🙂  

I do think it would be good if more people would garden as they are able, though.  I find it to be very relaxing, although it's possible that part of that as I pick and cook I can marinate in memories of doing these things with my grandparents.  I actually find that it increases our sense of thankfulness and helps to minimize food waste.  When you know how much work goes into getting those green beans to the table, you are not likely to let them wind up in the trash.  I also think that we save money (assuming we were going to buy a few acres whether we gardened or not) - even paying the plow guy to come out and plow and then buying seeds small plants and such, we only spend hundreds of dollars, and I'm guessing that it would cost more than that to buy a year's worth of green beans, peas, limas, corn, tomato sauce, applesauce, blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, okra, and butternut squash, with all of those, plus summer squash, fresh all summer.  But, we also live in a place where we don't have to do much to get things to grow - in 10 years, we've had to water the garden twice because there is usually enough rain.  We spent money to get a raised bed for asparagus, but with the rate at which we eat it I expect to recoup our costs in 2-3 years.

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

Actually, last season I totaled the amount spent on the garden (of course my start up costs were absorbed through previous seasons) vs the cost of buying all of the produce we did eat from it, and I came out ahead. Eggplant here was $3 each, and I grew them for less than $1 each. We are still eating dehydrated grape tomatoes on our salads and having them in stews. A pint of grape tomatoes in winter here can top $3. I bought my seedling/plants for $1.50 each and each one produced four or five pints of grape tomatoes. We do live on a well so I didn't have a water bill for irrigating during the dry spell. My original grape vine start cost me $3.00 five years ago. I have done exactly nothing to encourage it to live. Last summer I harvested 8 lbs. The cheapest Thompson seedless grapes are sold in supermarkets here is $2 per lb. It had paid for itself and keeps giving. I have the money to buy these things in the store. So technically it isn't "helping me feed my family". However, it did save money, and it was better for the environment than buying trucked in from California, Mexico, and Costa Rica produce.

So in some cases it can make a dent in a food bill.

The community city garden that the UMC created with cheap seeds from TSC produced hundreds of pounds of vegetables for the community at less than $100 investment. But, to be fair, that one had good soil to begin with, and a farmer who gave composted manure as a donation. It was quite prolific. At one point, families coming to the food bank could take very large boxes of produce home that were otherwise unavailable because there wasn't donation money available to buy it at the supermarket or gamer's market.

It isn't for everyone. And as a I said above, I have family members who are about to be deployed over this invasion so my thoughts are jumbled by emotion and feeling helpless beyond making monetary donations that if super lucky, might actually do some good for Ukrainians IF the aid can be gotten to them.

[cjzimmer1]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment ( otherwise the deer will eat it all).

 

I live in a subdivision with a small/medium yard at least compared to many in my area).  In 2020 I managed to produce 800-1000 pounds of tomatoes plus all the cucumbers, peppers, zucchini and herbs that my family could consume plus some other veggies I dabbled with.  I also fenced my yard that year, built a new raised bed, and added about 10 new pots to my container gardens.  My expense for soil additives, lumber fencing etc was $400-500.  So I already made off the first year and the raised bed, soil, and fence will continue to be used many years down the road.  Most years my outlay is less than $100.  

[regentrude]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

Actually, last season I totaled the amount spent on the garden (of course my start up costs were absorbed through previous seasons) vs the cost of buying all of the produce we did eat from it, and I came out ahead. 

Did your calculation include your labor?

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I live in a subdivision with a small/medium yard at least compared to many in my area).  In 2020 I managed to produce 800-1000 pounds of tomatoes plus all the cucumbers, peppers, zucchini and herbs that my family could consume plus some other veggies I dabbled with.  I also fenced my yard that year, built a new raised bed, and added about 10 new pots to my container gardens.  My expense for soil additives, lumber fencing etc was $400-500.  So I already made off the first year and the raised bed, soil, and fence will continue to be used many years down the road.  Most years my outlay is less than $100.  

Are you including your labor in the calculations?

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Did your calculation include your labor?

Yes, because so literally do nothing. I stick them in the raised bed, and the hose is on a timer if the need arises. I am a plant killer so I don't spend much time with them. Plants tend to die in my presence. The raised beds took an hour to make out of free oak palettes and we made them years ago. I don't get weeds because of an old roll of weed barrier fabric my dad had. We lined the beds with those. Total investment a long time ago was about $40 in soil and compost. But I do live in an agricultural community where I can get a load of soil cheap or whatever. For us, and I am not saying this is true of everyone, it was inexpensive.

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Did your calculation include your labor?

Unless someone’s quitting their job to garden, please.
Yes, it can involve some labor intensive work, especially for starting from scratch.  But so does everything else I do around here for my family and my community (instead of holding a paying job).  Eating tends to be a priority at my house, so maybe I’ll scrub the showers less frequently or give up sparkling the windows.  I already ditched sewing years ago, though I picked it back up for a bit when masks were hard or expensive to come by.

Life is laborious.

[Katy]

My mom used to do a lot of work for a church community garden.  They donated something like 3 tons of fresh produce to the local soup kitchen and food pantry one summer, and it was only two acres I think. A quarter were raised beds that people rented, and the rest were just rows grown to donate. They had to cover rows of kale & such with bridal veil held down with pebbles or the plants would get eaten to the ground.  She had to go out of town at one point and I helped for her.  I think I spent about an hour a day out there, except for once or twice when I'd be the person to take the food donations.

I think the poster advertising for victory gardens in WWII was for a 50x100' in ground row system with successive plantings. I'm guessing that took at least an hour a day, and 3 or more when harvesting and replanting. Fencing and wildlife are definitely a problem.

If a garden doesn't work, you can also look into community CSA's and things like Bountiful Baskets or other coops.

[Pawz4me]

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 I don't get weeds because of an old roll of weed barrier fabric my dad had. We lined the beds with those.

You must have very puny weeds compared to the ones we have here. Weed barrier works for a very short period of time, like one growing season at the very most.

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Unless someone’s quitting their job to garden, please.
Yes, it can involve some labor intensive work, especially for starting from scratch.  But so does everything else I do around here for my family and my community (instead of holding a paying job).  Eating tends to be a priority at my house, so maybe I’ll scrub the showers less frequently or give up sparkling the windows.  I already ditched sewing years ago, though I picked it back up for a bit when masks were hard or expensive to come by.

Life is laborious.

Agreed.

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

You must have very puny weeds compared to the ones we have here. Weed barrier works for a very short period of time, like one growing season at the very most.

My raised beds are 36" off the ground. Not sharing ground with the lawn probably helps.

[Faith-manor]

Anyway, we may as well drop the topic. I don't see the point of continuing.

[Ausmumof3]

Farmers here are reducing the wheat crop they plant this year due to fertiliser cost making it unviable. Those who don’t have it already ordered are uncertain whether they’ll even get it. 
 

Some are switching to pea crops that grow without.

Sunflowers worry me because there was already a shortage last year and we have birds. Technically they don’t really need them but there will be a lot of screaming. We do have a few in the garden so will be harvesting those at least.

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Anyway, we may as well drop the topic. I don't see the point of continuing.

I think it's a great thing to talk about. Beyond the potential monetary savings I think gardening is great for physical and mental health for most of us.

 

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

Sunflowers worry me because there was already a shortage last year and we have birds. Technically they don’t really need them but there will be a lot of screaming.

Yes, I've thought about that too. We're already paying about $5 more for a 20 pound bag than we paid last year. Sure it's definitely a first world problem, but . . we do enjoy watching the birds.

[regentrude]

36 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes, because so literally do nothing.

Wow. That's great. I am truly happy for you. And the birds and the critters don't eat your crop?

It's just so not my experience. For the past few years, I have been working on my friend's farm during my summer break. She works 5-6 days a week, from 7am to 3pm. 40 years of experience. Well established gardens. Raises maybe a third of what she needs as a single person. 
I love gardening. Truly love it. That's why I spend many days each summer working with her. (But financially, at least here, it doesn't make sense... a few hours in  a paid gig would pay for all that local produce at the Farmer's market. That was my whole point.)

Edited February 27, 2022 by regentrude

[fairfarmhand]

I love working in the garden.

Slaving over the stove to preserve it for winter? HATE that.

I do preserve some things in the freezer, but I generally plan to enjoy most of what we grow in the summer. There are many summer days when most of what is on the table is what we grew. 

I do freeze many gallons of blueberries. But that's my biggest preservation.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Did your calculation include your labor?

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

 

This. 

Besides the fact I'm not supposed to garden (lungs/fungi), the cost would be prohibitive for me, and the labor unsustainable. Just the amount of water required to sustain a garden here! 

OP did mention not everyone can garden, though, and it's nice if you can. But if gardening for myself stands between me and hunger, well, I'm taking hunger, I guess. Idk. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The deer population is really bad here and when the herds get too big, they become diseased, and that spread from the deer to the cows. Our state is actually begging for more hunters. But fewer and fewer people hunt, and the natural predator that used to keep them from becoming overpopulated, the wolf, hasn't been on the loose here in well, forever or at least a REALLY long time. The Oscoda County herd is probably going to have to be put down by the DNR in conjunction with hunters. I don't think any of them will be edible due to bovine tuberculosis. 

Most hunters I know love the meat or hunt for friends and family members who do (or work with the game commission to distribute to food banks, etc.). We know people who aren't really the hunting type who hunt because they need the food. If the deer aren't edible, I am not surprised that people don't want to spend time and vacation days hunting just to take them down (though I am sure some retirees would do so). Safe places to hunt are also a bit sketchy as farms disappear. A lot of people don't like to hunt on public land because you don't know where other hunters are. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Boxes and food markets here cost just as much if not more than the supermarket.

Plus, for poorer people, you have to factor in the cost to get to the fancy places. $ for bus/ delivery vs free walk to super market is a no brainer. 

Oh dear, it's very depressing. 

I am glad for those of you who can supplement from your gardens! 

 

[kbutton]

Cost, labor, and output of a garden varies a lot by region. Our weather is probably more conducive to a productive garden than where my parents live, but their soil is astronomically richer. They've amended it on the cheap for years, but even so, it was much better to start with. Their dirt is beautiful, and even if they let the weeds go, you just basically have to look at them sideways, and they'll pop out of the ground. We often have to dig ours out. 

Apples and oranges.

We do still manage to get a lot of benefit from our garden, small as it is. Last year we had bushels and bushels of beans from about 15 feet of plants. The only succession planting was where a bunny got to the early the beans and chomped half of the row. The same plants blossomed and put out enormous amounts of long, tender, tasty beans for MONTHS. It's not always like that, for sure, but when the conditions are good, it's amazing. We also worked a bunch of rabbit manure and leaves into our beds last year, and we tried a variety of beans known to give a heavy yield (Cobra). 

I don't count labor costs for things we do at home. Where would it end? Buying new dishes because I didn't want to spend time washing them? I am sure there is a break even point that some people need to factor in, but I don't think that's a big thing for most people when it comes to gardening. I think I would feel differently if most of my efforts fed only the local wildlife, but even then, we'd likely just make a big cage because we like our produce. 🙂 

[mum]

I volunteer at a community garden that raises 100% organic produce and donates all of it to the food bank. It's a non profit. We raise everything from donated seeds, we hold a plant sale once a year, and all the work is done by volunteers. It is wonderful to see all this amazing food going to the food pantry that's in the parking lot of the garden, as well as being picked up by a low income senior housing complex and a women's shelter. This is how I am participating in meeting the food needs in my community.

If anyone has active Master Gardeners in their area, they are a great resource for what grows well in your area and they may also know of volunteer opportunities (that's how I found the community garden where I volunteer).

Personally, I have changed the way we eat to 95% what is in season. I do not buy lettuce or tomatoes in the winter. In fact, I never buy lettuce. Nor do I grow it.  I aim to buy whatever is nearest to $1/lb. I do not meal plan before I shop for produce, I shop and then plan around what I buy.

Perennial food crops are of great interest to me. So instead of the labor involved in, for example, growing lettuce (annual crop which is water intensive, and labor intensive to plant several rounds) to make salads, I grow collard trees. Yes, it's not lettuce, but lettuce is nutritionally quite poor anyway. Collard trees take the least amount of work of anything I've grown, propagate easily and could provide 100% of my vegetables if necessary. Berries and fruit trees are also perennial. 

I don't mind repetitive eating. It used to be that people ate what they grew, and it wasn't a varied as the supermarket shelves. Whatever grows well for me, that's what we eat. It means a TON of zucchini and tomatoes in the summer, but then we don't get any the rest of the year. It means a TON of collard greens, but they are filling, nutritionally dense and gloriously easy. I was given a butternut squash seedling last summer, which I planted by the ditch which waters a fruit tree. I did nothing to that plant, no supplemental water (other than what the tree got from the pool hose that drains our washing machine into the ditches), and it grew enough butternut squash to last us the whole winter. That was worth it! So I do think there are ways to garden that are actually cost effective.

But my hobby horse is collard trees. We have some in our master gardener demonstration garden. I always say that if someone was food insecure, and they had a space for one pot, they should grow a collard tree.

[Melissa Louise]

We have clay soil, which is a further barrier. Plus renting - hard to garden when you don't know when you'll be forced to leave it behind. Too painful to make an investment like that. 

What is a collard tree, @mum? I've never heard of that. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

not getting scurvy and not being hungry is profitable enough

I don’t get paid for anything in my life and haven’t for decades.  Yet here I am still cooking, cleaning, knitting and crocheting, educating and maintaining the house and bellies as best I can. 

1 hour ago, thewellerman said:

I don't plan to grow enough right now to feed my family.  I couldn't have had a garden at my last house because animals would have eaten everything, but now I live in a subdivision and don't have that problem.  We will just slowly add to what we are doing and work it into our daily lives.  Using raised beds, filled with good dirt, allows us to avoid a lot of labor.  No weeding, and we can plant much closer together.  I'm planning to grow quick growing and reliable plants this year, which will allow me to spend more money on the foods that are too expensive or difficult for me to grow.  Specifically, lettuces and peas in the spring, then green beans, cherry tomatoes, and zucchini in the summer. 

^ this is what I am doing. Luckily enough I have many young people still living here who will be pitching in. Our local library system gives away hundreds of packets of free seeds of all kinds this time of year and I ordered from there so that’s free. I’ve been putting my coffee grounds and  banana peels and egg shells in a bucket to purée to add to my raised garden beds. I plant to have the kids help me add garden beds along my north and west fence line.  I *think* I’m going to use good old cheep cinder blocks. Not the prettiest, but hard to beat the price. I have some old bricks I’m going to lay across weed barrier on the bottom of the beds before I add enriched soil. Will this prevent all weeds? Probably not. But it prevents enough that I don’t suspect it will be much of an issue.  I was thinking my major expense will be soil - but then I found out I can get one truck load for free so I’ll be taking my truck out for that next month. 

[mum]

https://www.projecttreecollard.org/

When we rented I grew in old burlap bags (got for free) filled with soil. We have the clay-est of clay soils where we live.

Our local zero-waste organization is giving away a cubic foot per household of organic compost in 2 weeks. I'll be there! Usually I buy a cubic foot per year-about $40.

[Rosie_0801]

I most definitely spend more on my garden than I ever get out of it. Invasive runner grasses and the clay soil Melissa Louise mentioned being the main opposition. The weeds are by far the most useful of the plants, but they are highly valuable to me for being nutrition I can't buy at the supermarket. Same for the hours spent harvesting radish pods last year. They are magnificent little vitamin pills.

[Corraleno]

41 minutes ago, regentrude said:

For the past few years, I have been working on my friend's farm during my summer break. She works 5-6 days a week, from 7am to 3pm. 40 years of experience. Well established gardens. Raises maybe a third of what she needs as a single person. 

That's really shocking to me that someone could work 40 hrs/week in a garden and only get 1/3 of the produce needed to feed one person. What is she growing and what is she buying? If the 70% of her diet that she is buying includes meat, dairy, eggs, grains, non-homemade baked goods, etc., then maybe it makes more sense.

I haven't put in a garden at my current house (yet), but when I had a big garden in the UK I averaged maybe an hour a day from early spring to late fall, and managed to grow all of the produce needed for two adults and a preschooler throughout the summer, plus had stored potatoes, onions, squash, carrots, and garlic to last a bit into the winter, along with lots of frozen veg, tomato sauce, apple sauce, etc. I also canned enough jam to last a year. We had dwarf apple trees, blueberries, raspberries, gooseberries, and black currants, and grew lot of different melons in a greenhouse. After the initial labor of digging the beds and installing the greenhouse, it really wasn't much work at all, just weeding and occasional watering in dry spells. We had 4 hens in a portable coop with a chicken-wire run that was the same size as the vegetable beds, so when we harvested one bed, we'd put the coop there and let the chickens dig up the bed and fertilize it. We did have decent (peaty) soil to start with, and didn't have any deer or other critters (other than the usual slugs and bugs) we needed to protect the garden from, so that was one area where we saved labor. But I just can't imagine spending 40 hrs/wk gardening and only getting 30% of what I needed just to feed myself. I only had 1/4 acre in the UK, if I'd had a big enough garden that I needed to spend 40 hrs/wk to maintain it, I could have fed the whole neighborhood for 6 months.

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

My friend is a homesteaders of 38 years, experienced gardener, and she manages to raise 30% of what she eats. It means  working full-time in her gardens during the growing season, with soil deliberately enriched and built up over decades.

Is anyone here really gardening in a profitable way??? I would  never even recoup the fencing investment (otherwise the deer will eat it all).

Gardening is fun, meaningful, spiritually worthwhile... but as an answer to food prices far less efficient than having a day job and outsourcing the farming to local professionals. 

 

We do

We grow 90% of our fruit and vegetables.  Don't grow bananas or potatoes, but everything else. And most of our milk. 

Oh I Have a veggie patch about the size of a tennis court and spend about 7 hours a week on veggie gardening. That includes watering time in summer. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[livetoread]

I've gardened for fun for years and I doubt I've ever broke even. We have super clay soil, inconsistent rainfall, and lots of hungry critters even though we're in the suburbs. Dealing with these things means $$, both in initial outlay and ongoing expenses. 

Editing to add, maybe I have some years because I grow some things like Swiss chard and herbs that cost at the store.

Edited February 27, 2022 by livetoread