Pam in CT Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 re how "nationalism" interacts, structurally, with "race" 9 minutes ago, scholastica said: I am flummoxed as to why nationalism has become so big with so many people of faith. There’s a church in Tennessee called the Patriot Church founded in 2020. It’s just so bizarre. And really, let’s be honest, it’s become big mostly with white Christians. There’s a race element to this that is distasteful to me, as well. The people in my circles who resisted the notion that systemic racism is a thing and a problem are the ones who have embraced the anti-vax, anti-mask, etc. Lightheartedly, the vast number of people I know who don’t want the vaccines are afraid if side effects. Who put fear over faith there? Pretty much all of the movements that defined themselves as "nationalist" over the last ~100 years have had pretty strong race-based engines driving the bus. Sometimes an out-group religious minority is defined to be a different "race" to get there (see Whoopi over the last few weeks). But the moment happening now in the US isn't truly "Christian" nationalism, so much as "white" nationalism. The movement isn't looking to recruit tens of millions of black and brown Christian Americans (any more that it's looking to recruit the much smaller number of fair-skinned blue-eyed Jews or Muslims). Like the "nationalist" movements in Russia and Hungary, it's attractive to, and utilizing the organization and rhetorical power of, the significant Venn Diagram overlapping circles of "white" and "Christian." Dominionist theology (and etc) provides a super convenient divine sanction for enforcing Our will, by force if necessary, over anybody and everybody in the way. From the inside of the circle of its precepts, it's establishing God's will. That is a powerful engine for recruitment, organization, and justification of really any action. To anyone outside its precepts it is indistinguishable from fascism. The core nationalist/populist idea is: only some of the people are, really, people. That idea is more often than not tied up, structurally, with race. 12 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 I get it Kbutton. I'm tired too. It is hard to always be the odd man out. My family isn't a safe place anymore and we were close. I don't mean safe from disease but rather just mentally and emotionally. I understand. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebcoola Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 I definitely think it's mostly the Q stuff. I've become more estranged from our church family than I ever thought possible over the last 2 years. They are definitely churches people Sunday, small group weekly. Overall not super educated though. At the beginning of the pandemic they all jumped in started making masks etc. It wasn't until a few weeks into everything that things started to change. Our least educated and least churched friend started posting conspiracy stuff. Than the others followed more and more and now they are fully wrapped up in the idea that its all a power grab. Their has always been something about being in a red area of a blue state that seems to make people think the Governor and state officials are out to get this side. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianthus Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 @Indigo Blue Have had nearly the same situation re kid vomiting at church. The family left some kids home with stomach bug, then brought the rest of the family to church, put kids in classes and a kid vomited in Sunday school. So many other times, people bring kids with fevers or when siblings have fevers. For colds, they just bring them fully ill. So many members were so inconsiderate. I don't understand that. Oh, and I was guilted into helping in the nursery monthly. I was disliked because I would tell people they couldn't put their sick kid in the nursery. Once this kid had a solid green dripping nose down to his lip, and the other people were annoyed that I told his visiting parents he couldn't come in the nursery because it was unwelcoming. I learned quickly that anytime my kids went in that nursery, they came out sick. So, I spent a lot of time holding my babies in the lobby. 6 yrs since the last baby at church. I had a baby during the pandemic, and she is not going in a church nursery. But why is this a thing? I never sent my sick kid to Sunday school. Maybe because it's normal for sick kids to go to daycare and school? We homeschool so didn't have those encounters. These people wouldn't stay home when sick precovid, how could I trust them to do so during covid? And even now, I feel we are at the end, but I don't want to get sick with anything. It's a pain to take care of 4 sick kids then end up sick myself. And I don't buy that the more often you get sick, the healthier the immune system. I was sick regularly as a kid and still get sick every time my kids are sick. AND, if we get sick with anything we still have to isolate and cancel paid activities and my husband potentially loses work. People are just so inconsiderate. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scholastica Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Pam in CT said: re how "nationalism" interacts, structurally, with "race" Pretty much all of the movements that defined themselves as "nationalist" over the last ~100 years have had pretty strong race-based engines driving the bus. Sometimes an out-group religious minority is defined to be a different "race" to get there (see Whoopi over the last few weeks). But the moment happening now in the US isn't truly "Christian" nationalism, so much as "white" nationalism. The movement isn't looking to recruit tens of millions of black and brown Christian Americans (any more that it's looking to recruit the much smaller number of fair-skinned blue-eyed Jews or Muslims). Like the "nationalist" movements in Russia and Hungary, it's attractive to, and utilizing the organization and rhetorical power of, the significant Venn Diagram overlapping circles of "white" and "Christian." Dominionist theology (and etc) provides a super convenient divine sanction for enforcing Our will, by force if necessary, over anybody and everybody in the way. From the inside of the circle of its precepts, it's establishing God's will. That is a powerful engine for recruitment, organization, and justification of really any action. To anyone outside its precepts it is indistinguishable from fascism. The core nationalist/populist idea is: only some of the people are, really, people. That idea is more often than not tied up, structurally, with race. I think this is what is surprising to me. I’m not in a Church with a Dominion theology. Definitely not one in which God favors one country over another. I am surprised however at the very nationalist and even white nationalist undertones that some people I know seem to ascribe to. If anything, it is opposed to our faith outright and yet, here we are. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Blue Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Spirea said: And I don't buy that the more often you get sick, the healthier the immune system. I Yes. Sickness happens. It can’t be helped. But do you really have to come and expose a whole room full of people when you could just as easily stay home? There’s just no need for that. I’m sorry you had such bad experiences. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, scholastica said: I am impressed that you do that. Sometimes I'm able to keep my cool but a few times I let the snark out and a couple parents (out of 6) refuse to talk to me anymore. I'm not always really proud of my words but sometimes I remember to give myself grace because it is hard. Some people I recognize as in too deep. I avoid them. Try to do damage control when they aren't around. They are gone but a lot of people are just too immersed in these messages and surrounded by people saying the same garbage (at work, school, on Facebook). It is just fed them constantly. If someone doesn't counter, they will never hear a sane voice. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 12 minutes ago, Pam in CT said: re how "nationalism" interacts, structurally, with "race" Pretty much all of the movements that defined themselves as "nationalist" over the last ~100 years have had pretty strong race-based engines driving the bus. Sometimes an out-group religious minority is defined to be a different "race" to get there (see Whoopi over the last few weeks). But the moment happening now in the US isn't truly "Christian" nationalism, so much as "white" nationalism. The movement isn't looking to recruit tens of millions of black and brown Christian Americans (any more that it's looking to recruit the much smaller number of fair-skinned blue-eyed Jews or Muslims). Like the "nationalist" movements in Russia and Hungary, it's attractive to, and utilizing the organization and rhetorical power of, the significant Venn Diagram overlapping circles of "white" and "Christian." Dominionist theology (and etc) provides a super convenient divine sanction for enforcing Our will, by force if necessary, over anybody and everybody in the way. From the inside of the circle of its precepts, it's establishing God's will. That is a powerful engine for recruitment, organization, and justification of really any action. To anyone outside its precepts it is indistinguishable from fascism. The core nationalist/populist idea is: only some of the people are, really, people. That idea is more often than not tied up, structurally, with race. I actually think there are degrees and mixtures. There are definitely white supremacists out there spewing hate but I don't think a lot of people realize they are aligning themselves with these people. My family has multiple inter racial marriages. The mixed race has a very nationalist attitude and is very incorporated into the family as their own. They are all against "illegals". I hate that word but feel it best to repeat what they say because honestly, they agree to mixed marriages, help others of different races etc. Most I would definitely call xenophobic and also completely ignorant of other people's experiences. If you are an American of a different race but speak English etc you are fine but needing refuge from your own country? Too bad you are out of luck, go home. Just trying to relate the attitude here. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 re appeal of "nationalist" movements to (some) people who are not white, or not Christian 9 minutes ago, frogger said: I actually think there are degrees and mixtures. There are definitely white supremacists out there spewing hate but I don't think a lot of people realize they are aligning themselves with these people. My family has multiple inter racial marriages. The mixed race has a very nationalist attitude and is very incorporated into the family as their own. They are all against "illegals". I hate that word but feel it best to repeat what they say because honestly, they agree to mixed marriages, help others of different races etc. Most I would definitely call xenophobic and also completely ignorant of other people's experiences. If you are an American of a different race but speak English etc you are fine but needing refuge from your own country? Too bad you are out of luck, go home. Just trying to relate the attitude here. Yes; some (white-presenting) Jews have gotten on the nationalist train as well. And so long as it's only a FEW Stephen Millers or Enrique Tarrios or etc... they're welcome to board. In small numbers, they provide convenient cover; some of my best friends are... etc. But the train does not exist for them. It exists for the Wholly Us-group. And each degree of not-quite-wholly-us renders their membership conditional. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 30 minutes ago, frogger said: I actually think there are degrees and mixtures. There are definitely white supremacists out there spewing hate but I don't think a lot of people realize they are aligning themselves with these people. My family has multiple inter racial marriages. The mixed race has a very nationalist attitude and is very incorporated into the family as their own. They are all against "illegals". I hate that word but feel it best to repeat what they say because honestly, they agree to mixed marriages, help others of different races etc. Most I would definitely call xenophobic and also completely ignorant of other people's experiences. If you are an American of a different race but speak English etc you are fine but needing refuge from your own country? Too bad you are out of luck, go home. Just trying to relate the attitude here. I absolutely see this and my son just got engaged to be married into a family like this. His marriage will be interracial. He and his fiancée have quite different political views from his future ILs, although they are also to the right of us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewellerman Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 (edited) @Faith-manor (accidentally deleted the quote). I feel both of these things, and we did move. I'm finding the lines are drawn equally deep here, but it is unsettling because I can't tell who is who. Well, and there are so many devisions now, it is like a Venn diagram to figure out which section I should choose. I would love to go to a park day and let my homeschooled kids play, for example, but if I read through the various fb posts, almost always something shocking crops up. Arrogant and belligerent are the words that come to mind, and it is in stark contrast to the thoughtful and patient children I'm trying to raise. 1 hour ago, frogger said: It is just fed them constantly. If someone doesn't counter, they will never hear a sane voice. I've been thinking about this alot. It really isn't just churches. There are lines drawn in very unexpected (and yet when I think about it, not unexpected) places. I'm not sure how we, as a family, can escape it because our interests and activities lie within those groups. This isn't a direct example to my family, but to give an idea, it is a tricky time to be involved in something like shooting sports. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to be mostly quiet, and try a gentle word now and then and hope I can make someone think. I think of the children a lot. I have to keep my own children steady, but if I can also be a stable presence for another child who is being filled with these ideas, maybe over time I can help. I don't know. Edited because I typed decisions when I meant divisions. Edited February 19, 2022 by thewellerman 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 This is a tough topic. In some ways I feel very homeless. I used to align fairly closely with one political party, but now I can't with many candidates...but yet I can't really support the other side either. I see a lot of people that report they are "Christian" because as someone else above said they aren't Jewish or Muslim or Atheist, etc. They aren't really Christian by core Christian beliefs, but more so by culture, if that makes sense. Our church has been pretty middle of the road. I have heard NO one side or the other on the pandemic from the pulpit. Our church followed all local/state guidelines and rules for masking, services, etc. We are now back to mostly mask free but have 3 services so social distancing is possible and there is a section set aside for masking...you are welcome to sit anywhere and a mask is welcome but if you want to sit only by others wearing a mask they have that set apart (a section of the loft). overall I am pleased with how the church handled it and tried to keep people connected. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianthus Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 20 minutes ago, thewellerman said: I've been thinking about this alot. It really isn't just churches. There are lines drawn in very unexpected (and yet when I think about it, not unexpected) places. I'm not sure how we, as a family, can escape it because our interests and activities lie within those groups. Agree. We are in sports and arts activities. Arts people are much more cautious. I went to a sporting event today and other than us, only one person was masked. There were well over 100 people. Also, we went to a homeschool activity in November and we were the only masked family there (we picked up our first illness in 2 years, a cold, not covid). I'm about ready to be done masking. At this point, I don't think it matters a lot. Our surge is done and I think the whole area got it or is vaccinated, but I mask to make others comfortable. I don't like that my kids sometimes mask in unnecessary situations just to hide behind the mask. A bigger deal to me than masking is stay home when you're sick and wash your hands. But the lack of masking in the above situations just shows that we don't exactly align with these communities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 2 hours ago, rebcoola said: Their has always been something about being in a red area of a blue state that seems to make people think the Governor and state officials are out to get this side. Not to downplay this because I am sure it's real, but we have this in a red area of a red state with a red governor and a red legislature. It boggles the mind. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GracieJane Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 I’ve only ever lived in metropolitan cities in Europe that are either agnostic about Christianity or contemn it. I had one (!) Christian friend who attended church growing up. I suppose there is a small benefit to living in “Sodom and Gomorrah”: the number of Christians is so small that their profession reliably indicates authentic faith. I’m always so curious about these Midwest states with churches on every corner. Does everyone go to church? How does it feel to know so many Christians? Does everyone know doctrine? Does everyone pray? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Excellent article. Sent it to my mom and this was her response: "So sad but true! This is why we don't even consider evangelical churches!" My husband's response a year ago was to leave our church and sever his membership. I keep quiet to keep the peace most of the time and admire those of you who speak up. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, GracieJane said: I’ve only ever lived in metropolitan cities in Europe that are either agnostic about Christianity or contemn it. I had one (!) Christian friend who attended church growing up. I suppose there is a small benefit to living in “Sodom and Gomorrah”: the number of Christians is so small that their profession reliably indicates authentic faith. I’m always so curious about these Midwest states with churches on every corner. Does everyone go to church? How does it feel to know so many Christians? Does everyone know doctrine? Does everyone pray? I grew up in such an area in the rural Midwest, but haven’t lived there in almost 40 years. Yes, almost everyone went to church and I think that is still generally true. It’s primarily Catholic and mainstream Protestant churches with an independent more evangelical church arriving in the last 15 years or so. In my experience, no, everyone does not know doctrine. I certainly had a very poor Catholic religious education, despite being excused along with most of my class every Wednesday afternoon in public elementary school to walk to the Catholic Church for CCD classes. My public middle school was the old Catholic high school and was connected by an underground tunnel to the convent which was connected to the church. Probably 2/3 of my class was Catholic and during middle school we went once per week, separated by gender, for confirmation classes at the convent. It wasn’t until high school that extra church stuff was completely separate from public school. Although our schools never had any events on Wednesday nights ever. Yes, prayer was common, although not generally in school (at least not out loud public prayer) except for we did have a baccalaureate ceremony before graduation. We did not have prayers before sporting events or from coaches, although sports were huge, like I’ve seen on some documentaries filmed in the South. There might be a prayer at the town Memorial Day ceremony and the public school band would March to various cemeteries to play taps. But say at the free bank dinner or volunteer EMT/fire fundraising breakfast, there may or may not be a prayer said. The churches there are more connected than when I was growing up. They all host a community Thanksgiving dinner together and an Easter sunrise service. Everyone goes to everyone else’s church dinners and fundraisers and luncheons, etc. Together they started a resale store and the proceeds are used to fund a teen center at the top of the same building and to help families in need with specific things, like car repairs or utility bills, etc. I will say that going to college was very eye opening to me. I had never before heard of being saved or born again. I had never heard that some don’t consider Catholics to be Christians. I had never before experienced so much focus on one’s relationship with Jesus and so little focus on helping others and thinking of others (except to worry about if they are saved). So very, very different from where I grew up. Although I would say that politically those I knew in college in this group and most in my hometown are now very, very much aligned politically with a few exceptions among those more highly educated. I’m no longer religious and live in the least churched state in the US. Growing up it all seemed normal to me because it was all I knew. It doesn’t seem strange to not attend church anymore though. When I do occasionally attend one for a wedding or funeral or something, except for the Catholic Church, it all sounds very out there to me (I hope this doesn’t offend anyone) and I often wonder what someone who was never a Christian would think about experiencing such a service for the first time. Edited February 19, 2022 by Frances 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GracieJane Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, Frances said: I grew up in such an area in the rural Midwest, but haven’t lived there in almost 40 years. Yes, almost everyone went to church and I think that is still generally true. It’s primarily Catholic and mainstream Protestant churches with an independent more evangelical church arriving in the last 15 years or so. In my experience, no, everyone does not know doctrine. I certainly had a very poor Catholic religious education, despite being excused along with most of my class every Wednesday afternoon in public elementary school to walk to the Catholic Church for CCD classes. My public middle school was the old Catholic high school and was connected by an underground tunnel to the convent which was connected to the church. Probably 2/3 of my class was Catholic and during middle school we went once per week, separated by gender, for confirmation classes at the convent. It wasn’t until high school that extra church stuff was completely separate from public school. Although our schools never had any events on Wednesday nights ever. Yes, prayer was common, although not generally in school (at least not out loud public prayer) except for we did have a baccalaureate ceremony before graduation. We did not have prayers before sporting events or from coaches, although sports were huge, like I’ve seen on some documentaries filmed in the South. There might be a prayer at the town Memorial Day ceremony and the public school band would March to various cemeteries to play taps. But say at the free bank dinner or volunteer EMT/fire fundraising breakfast, there may or may not be a prayer said. The churches there are more connected than when I was growing up. They all host a community Thanksgiving dinner together and an Easter sunrise service. Everyone goes to everyone else’s church dinners and fundraisers and luncheons, etc. Together they started a resale store and the proceeds are used to fund a teen center at the top of the same building and to help families in need with specific things, like car repairs or utility bills, etc. I will say that going to college was very eye opening to me. I had never before heard of being saved or born again. I had never heard that some don’t consider Catholics to be Christians. I had never before experienced so much focus on one’s relationship with Jesus and so little focus on helping others and thinking of others (except to worry about if they are saved). So very, very different from where I grew up. Although I would say that politically those I knew in college in this group and most in my hometown are now very, very much aligned politically with a few exceptions among those more highly educated. I’m no longer religious and live in the least churched state in the US. Growing up it all seemed normal to me because it was all I knew. It doesn’t seem strange to not attend church anymore though. When I do occasionally attend one for a wedding or funeral or something, except for the Catholic Church, it all sounds very out there to me (I hope this doesn’t offend anyone) and I often wonder what someone who was never a Christian would think about experiencing such a service for the first time. Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 12 minutes ago, GracieJane said: I’ve only ever lived in metropolitan cities in Europe that are either agnostic about Christianity or contemn it. I had one (!) Christian friend who attended church growing up. I suppose there is a small benefit to living in “Sodom and Gomorrah”: the number of Christians is so small that their profession reliably indicates authentic faith. I’m always so curious about these Midwest states with churches on every corner. Does everyone go to church? How does it feel to know so many Christians? Does everyone know doctrine? Does everyone pray? In my county of approximately 52,000 people there are 57 churches. It is estimated that only 20% of the population attends church with any regularity so that is roughly 10,400 attendees which divided by is roughly 182 persons per church, except that it isn't evenly spread like that. According to the ministerial association, there are 13 churches in danger of closing due to low attendance and financial issues. So some churches are topping 200 in attendance. Actually, one or two of the Missouri Synod Lutheran churches top 300 per Sunday. This area was settled by German immigrants in the 1850's, and Lutherans here have K-8 schools which are very good, and hand down their faith fairly efficiently from generation to generation. As a matter of fact, my generation was the first to be taught English before 3rd grade. Now it is the opposite, they are taught in English but have German language instruction from 6th-8th grades when the schools can find German speaking teachers. The problem for these churches though is that apart from the Lutheran tradition, most off the churches have a very high number of retirees and elderly, and a low number of younger folks. The younger generations are not be retained. However, this area has low employment options for the younger generations so with each census there are more and more losses of young people. So it isn't necessarily the churches' faults. It is not uncommon to see someone praying over a meal when out and about. There is a prayer day on the courthouse lawn each year. The local newspapers have church news sections, and church goers are very vocal at school board and county commissioner meetings which is their right. Normally not an issue. But when a lot of churches fell for "faith not fear", and conspiracy theories, "covid is a hoax", " covid is flu", and a lot of notions about religious rights being trampled, that is when there was an issue with very angry mob mentality about influencing public school policy. Some are now also into banning books or pressuring the library to ban all kinds of books. There is as a general rule a deference towards protestant Christianity here in a very discriminatory way towards non Christians and Catholics. We were heavily criticized by numerous folks in the community for not opening our 4H club meetings with prayer. Uhm...secular organization, sponsored by secular university taking taxpayer funds. NOT appropriate! Now all of that said, the vast majority of the population do not attend church much at all, if at all. As for doctrine, I rarely hear doctrinal talk. There is a good bit of lifestyle talk, this family doesn't believe in mixed swimming, that one does, this one doesn't believe in vaccines, that one does, this one doesn't believe in women wearing pants, that one does, etc. You don't hear people discussing the doctrinal differences between churches. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, GracieJane said: Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? In my area, it is a mix of both. Before dh and so left Christianity the church we attend was an eclectic mix of people who did know the church doctrine, people who didn't, some who knew bits and pieces, and some who truly didn't care. The church was convenient to their home, and they liked the music and weren't at all worried about doctrine. Now that said, with that last group of folks, they didn't leave their children for classes nor did they attend bible studies or adult classes. They just came on Sunday mornings and for an occasional social event like the New Years Eve board game night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 One thing I’ve thought about is that at this point, I wouldn’t even consider a church that doesn’t have a live stream. Because continuing those broadcasts at least sends the message that “even though you can’t come in person, we still care about you and want you to be able to participate". 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 32 minutes ago, GracieJane said: Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? Sometimes they don't even know it's doctrines. Many do but a large number don't. Maybe even the majority. Depends on the denomination, how main stream it is etc and how common it is in the area. Highly churched areas may have more people that just go to church because they grew up doing so and go to the parent's for the big Sunday dinner afterwards. You are right though, it is different in places where is not accepted practice to be a Christian. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, GracieJane said: Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? It’s hard for me to know except for Catholicism. I will say that until this board, I had never encountered a Catholic who believes and agrees with all Church doctrine, and that includes relatives who are priests and nuns. In college, most of the students in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes group I was part of were fundamental, evangelical Christians. The focus was very much on being saved, saving others, and having a personal relationship with Jesus. Except for Catholics like me, most did not attend church regularly during college. Their Bible knowledge ranged from low to medium, but most had little to no knowledge of the history of Christianity. Several of my Catholic high school friends went to the local Lutheran college and got an education on all of the different Lutheran denominations. My Catholic boyfriend at the time had a freshman roommate who wanted to be a Lutheran minister. They roomed together all four years and as far as my boyfriend knew, he never once attended church while at college. But he did go on to become a pastor. Edited February 20, 2022 by Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Frances said: In college, most of the students in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes group I was part of were fundamental, evangelical Christians. The focus was very much on being saved, saving others, and having a personal relationship with Jesus. Except for Catholics like me, most did not attend church regularly during college. Their Bible knowledge ranged from low to medium, but most had little to no knowledge of the history of Christianity. The bolded is very true in my area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GracieJane Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Frances said: It’s hard for me to know except for Catholicism. I will say that until this board, I had never encountered a Catholic who believes and agrees with all Church doctrine, and that includes relatives who are priests and nuns. In college, most of the students in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes group I was part of were fundamental, evangelical Christians. The focus was very much on being saved, saving others, and having a personal relationship with Jesus. Except for Catholics like me, most did not attend church regularly during college. Their Bible knowledge ranged from low to medium, but most had little to no knowledge of the history of Christianity. Several of my Catholic high school friends went to the local Lutheran college and got an education on all of the different Lutheran denominations. My Catholic boyfriend at the time had a freshman roommate who wanted to be a Lutheran minister. They roomed together all four years and as far as my boyfriend knew, he never once attended church while at college. But he did go on to become a pastor. This is so interesting. I’ve always been curious about people who profess to be Christians but don’t know the Bible or attend church. I remember once reading this poll on Trump supporters in 2016; among the questions were “Would you describe yourself as a Christian?” and “How often do you attend church?”. The highest populated group polled were Christians who attend church once per month or less. I don’t know if that’s common here, but in very liberal metropolitans, if you are one of the small fraction of Christians that would admit it on a poll, you would definitely attend church weekly or more. ETA: I should have added that in my experience, labeling oneself a Christian is a slightly embarrassing admission of being in an out-group, which is perhaps why I’m so interested in people who like the label yet aren’t invested in its tenets. Like, there are a thousand interesting things to do on a Sunday morning, why go to church if you don’t really believe in God? Edited February 20, 2022 by GracieJane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, GracieJane said: This is so interesting. I’ve always been curious about people who profess to be Christians but don’t know the Bible or attend church. I remember once reading this poll on Trump supporters in 2016; among the questions were “Would you describe yourself as a Christian?” and “How often do you attend church?”. The highest populated group polled were Christians who attend church once per month or less. I don’t know if that’s common here, but in very liberal metropolitans, if you are one of the small fraction of Christians that would admit it on a poll, you would definitely attend church weekly or more. ETA: I should have added that in my experience, labeling oneself a Christian is a slightly embarrassing admission of being in an out-group, which is perhaps why I’m so interested in people who like the label yet aren’t invested in its tenets. Like, there are a thousand interesting things to do on a Sunday morning, why go to church if you don’t really believe in God? It can provide a sense of belonging and community and a social outlet. That was probably the most difficult thing for me when I stopped attending church, coupled with still believing a bit in eternal suffering in hell at the time. When we moved here we belonged to a Methodist church for several years, primarily because it was a very easy way to connect with community service work and they had a wonderful children’s music program. I really enjoyed the small Sunday school group I attended focused on social justice and community service. While we were both getting close to non believers at that point, especially my husband, I do think most who would actually describe themselves as Christian do believe in God, regardless of whether or not they attend church or how often and how little or much Bible knowledge that have or how much they understand their church doctrine. I didn’t call myself a Christian during that time, but I might occasionally mention something church related in casual conversation. We finally left after my FIL died and we realized that all of the response we got from fellow church members to that happening didn’t line up with our beliefs anymore and we should probably stop attending before our son got to the point of confirmation class. Edited February 20, 2022 by Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 5 hours ago, GracieJane said: Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? I realized I mentioned people who don't actually know doctrine etc but there are many of my closest friends who really believe in the actual teachings of Jesus. They understand grace. They welcome refugees, foster and adopt children, counsel abused women, feed hungry people, fix up homes of widows, give rides to the elderly or disabled and on and on. I have seen these things first hand. They understand the God sacrificed for them and they must sacrifice for others and that our lives are not just our own. That Jesus stated, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these...you did for me." Yes, even in a pandemic, even the elderly or cancer survivors or whomever might have a weaker immune system. As a Bible believer I recognize that God spoke to different people in different ways in different times and that his purpose was to add love and also how angry he was at the Pharisees who drove the people away from him. It is painful for me to watch God misrepresented by people whom haven't even read the Bible. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelaR Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 12 hours ago, GracieJane said: Interesting! So do all the people who attend church believe in its doctrines? Or are there people who go to church weekly and not profess any of it? I married into a mid-western family (but my parents were from the South, which has just as many churches around!). My ILs like to quote Ben Franklin, thinking they are quoting from the Bible, “God helps those who help themselves!” And they’re forever speaking of praying about things, but it seems that resembles more of an “asking Santa for a toy” type thing than a “Let me align my desires with the desires of the God of the Universe” type prayer that I believe Jesus modeled. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 8 hours ago, frogger said: I realized I mentioned people who don't actually know doctrine etc but there are many of my closest friends who really believe in the actual teachings of Jesus. They understand grace. They welcome refugees, foster and adopt children, counsel abused women, feed hungry people, fix up homes of widows, give rides to the elderly or disabled and on and on. I have seen these things first hand. They understand the God sacrificed for them and they must sacrifice for others and that our lives are not just our own. That Jesus stated, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these...you did for me." Yes, even in a pandemic, even the elderly or cancer survivors or whomever might have a weaker immune system. As a Bible believer I recognize that God spoke to different people in different ways in different times and that his purpose was to add love and also how angry he was at the Pharisees who drove the people away from him. It is painful for me to watch God misrepresented by people whom haven't even read the Bible. From what I am seeing in online church streams and social media sermon synopsis from local churches, it isn't that they haven't read the Bible, it is that they are ignoring it or twisting the words of Christ, making Christ's teachings take a back seat, etc. in order to further a nationalist or personal agenda. These church goers and their leaders are not ignorant of Christ's instructions, they have decided that their public policy agenda trump's Jesus agenda. In discussing this with my sons, all in their twenties, and my daughter who is almost 31, they believe this behavior is a key ingredient in why their peers are rejecting the concept of organized Christianity. We watched one live stream in which during announcements which were done before the offering in the middle of the worship service, a petition for stripping the governor of emergency powers was presented and the whole service stopped while the pastor had an usher pass it around for people to sign! Can you imagine being a congregant who did not support it? DH left a comment on their facebook and shut it off the stream. He still enjoys livestreaming worship services, and I felt so bad for him. It really upset him. 😥 2 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scholastica Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said: From what I am seeing in online church streams and social media sermon synopsis from local churches, it isn't that they haven't read the Bible, it is that they are ignoring it or twisting the words of Christ, making Christ's teachings take a back seat, etc. in order to further a nationalist or personal agenda. These church goers and their leaders are not ignorant of Christ's instructions, they have decided that their public policy agenda trump's Jesus agenda. In discussing this with my sons, all in their twenties, and my daughter who is almost 31, they believe this behavior is a key ingredient in why their peers are rejecting the concept of organized Christianity. We watched one live stream in which during announcements which were done before the offering in the middle of the worship service, a petition for stripping the governor of emergency powers was presented and the whole service stopped while the pastor had an usher pass it around for people to sign! Can you imagine being a congregant who did not support it? DH left a comment on their facebook and shut it off the stream. He still enjoys livestreaming worship services, and I felt so bad for him. It really upset him. 😥 I agree with your kids. I actually had my ds study the social teachings of our church last year so that he could see that what some of the people around him, who consider themselves to be the “faithful Christians”, have aligned themselves with a political belief system that is often diametrically opposed to what our faith actually teaches. It is disheartening to me that this is the message of Christianity today in the US. It is driving away huge numbers of people. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GracieJane Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 11 hours ago, Frances said: It can provide a sense of belonging and community and a social outlet. That was probably the most difficult thing for me when I stopped attending church, coupled with still believing a bit in eternal suffering in hell at the time. When we moved here we belonged to a Methodist church for several years, primarily because it was a very easy way to connect with community service work and they had a wonderful children’s music program. I really enjoyed the small Sunday school group I attended focused on social justice and community service. While we were both getting close to non believers at that point, especially my husband, I do think most who would actually describe themselves as Christian do believe in God, regardless of whether or not they attend church or how often and how little or much Bible knowledge that have or how much they understand their church doctrine. I didn’t call myself a Christian during that time, but I might occasionally mention something church related in casual conversation. We finally left after my FIL died and we realized that all of the response we got from fellow church members to that happening didn’t line up with our beliefs anymore and we should probably stop attending before our son got to the point of confirmation class. This is really interesting. I‘ve heard of so many stories of faith journeys but none of faith exits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 24 minutes ago, GracieJane said: This is really interesting. I‘ve heard of so many stories of faith journeys but none of faith exits. There was a thread three or four years ago in which some of us got brave and shared deconversion stories. I don't know if you can find it to read. I have no idea what the title of that thread was. I am forever grateful to MercyA, Krgtok, Carol in Cal, and others for being so kind. For many, faith exits are very traumatic and the inclination of others is to try to "re-proselytize" them or worse, just get rough on them and use words like apostate, wicked, hard hearted, vicious accusations, etc. We had none of that and lots of love. It was good! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 When I was going through my deconversion, I read lots of stories online at a site for exchristians. I can't find it now, but ex-christians.net looks similar. It was very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Faith-manor said: From what I am seeing in online church streams and social media sermon synopsis from local churches, it isn't that they haven't read the Bible, it is that they are ignoring it or twisting the words of Christ, making Christ's teachings take a back seat, etc. in order to further a nationalist or personal agenda. These church goers and their leaders are not ignorant of Christ's instructions, they have decided that their public policy agenda trump's Jesus agenda. In discussing this with my sons, all in their twenties, and my daughter who is almost 31, they believe this behavior is a key ingredient in why their peers are rejecting the concept of organized Christianity. We watched one live stream in which during announcements which were done before the offering in the middle of the worship service, a petition for stripping the governor of emergency powers was presented and the whole service stopped while the pastor had an usher pass it around for people to sign! Can you imagine being a congregant who did not support it? DH left a comment on their facebook and shut it off the stream. He still enjoys livestreaming worship services, and I felt so bad for him. It really upset him. 😥 I'm not saying that that doesn't happen also. Using religion for alternative purposes absolutely certainly does happen but I think a lot of attendees don't recognize it because they don't sit down and read a whole book of the Bible. They don't understand historical and literary context. I believe the Bible would call these leaders wolves in sheep's clothing. He also said, "You will know them by their fruit." My personal experience is just more with people who are supposedly Christian but don't attend church or read the Bible. You cannot believe how often I have heard, as mentioned above, "God helps those who help themselves." I've read the whole Bible many times. Never seen anything remotely like that quote in there. 🙄 Edited February 20, 2022 by frogger Edited for repeated phrase and confusing sentence 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Hopper Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) On 2/19/2022 at 12:20 AM, frogger said: I see this too. People live in echo chambers. They surround themselves with people who think like them and always agree and therefore are surprised and confused when other people think differently. ETA Now I realize I missed some posts and am totally repeating people. Sorry about that but there is no delete button. This has been my experience - and it’s really awkward because it paints the one pointing out the emperor’s nakedness as the villain. 20 hours ago, Pam in CT said: re how "nationalism" interacts, structurally, with "race" Pretty much all of the movements that defined themselves as "nationalist" over the last ~100 years have had pretty strong race-based engines driving the bus. Sometimes an out-group religious minority is defined to be a different "race" to get there (see Whoopi over the last few weeks). But the moment happening now in the US isn't truly "Christian" nationalism, so much as "white" nationalism. The movement isn't looking to recruit tens of millions of black and brown Christian Americans (any more that it's looking to recruit the much smaller number of fair-skinned blue-eyed Jews or Muslims). Like the "nationalist" movements in Russia and Hungary, it's attractive to, and utilizing the organization and rhetorical power of, the significant Venn Diagram overlapping circles of "white" and "Christian." Dominionist theology (and etc) provides a super convenient divine sanction for enforcing Our will, by force if necessary, over anybody and everybody in the way. From the inside of the circle of its precepts, it's establishing God's will. That is a powerful engine for recruitment, organization, and justification of really any action. To anyone outside its precepts it is indistinguishable from fascism. The core nationalist/populist idea is: only some of the people are, really, people. That idea is more often than not tied up, structurally, with race. I am currently working with a small group of Christians in studying immigration and refugee issues. Our biggest conundrum is not how to actually aid those in need, but how to educate the church on the related issues (from an actual scriptural perspective!) because there is so much tension over the issue. One of the organizers received an angry email from a congregant once the aid group was announced, with the flavor of why-are-we-doing-this-we-need-to-take-care-of-our-own-first! One thing that has become startlingly obvious to me as we look over the materials is that perspectives and policies regarding immigration are heavily affected by racism. To be clear, this subject of racism is not addressed in what I’m currently studying; however, it has come as an observation to me that I cannot fully understand the plight of immigrants and refugees without acknowledging that aspect of it, foremost of which is examining my own heart on the matter, examining myself to see what forms my own gut reactions (ie, the indwelling Spirit or fear imprinted on me following the events of 9/11?). 20 hours ago, Spirea said: @Indigo Blue Have had nearly the same situation re kid vomiting at church. The family left some kids home with stomach bug, then brought the rest of the family to church, put kids in classes and a kid vomited in Sunday school. So many other times, people bring kids with fevers or when siblings have fevers. For colds, they just bring them fully ill. So many members were so inconsiderate. I don't understand that. Oh, and I was guilted into helping in the nursery monthly. I was disliked because I would tell people they couldn't put their sick kid in the nursery. Once this kid had a solid green dripping nose down to his lip, and the other people were annoyed that I told his visiting parents he couldn't come in the nursery because it was unwelcoming. I learned quickly that anytime my kids went in that nursery, they came out sick. So, I spent a lot of time holding my babies in the lobby. 6 yrs since the last baby at church. I had a baby during the pandemic, and she is not going in a church nursery. But why is this a thing? I never sent my sick kid to Sunday school. Maybe because it's normal for sick kids to go to daycare and school? We homeschool so didn't have those encounters. These people wouldn't stay home when sick precovid, how could I trust them to do so during covid? And even now, I feel we are at the end, but I don't want to get sick with anything. It's a pain to take care of 4 sick kids then end up sick myself. And I don't buy that the more often you get sick, the healthier the immune system. I was sick regularly as a kid and still get sick every time my kids are sick. AND, if we get sick with anything we still have to isolate and cancel paid activities and my husband potentially loses work. People are just so inconsiderate. Our old church had a cry room, and I remember attending church after having my first baby, we elected to sit in there as a safer option for my little one since it was flu season. Another mom friend also came in with her baby, and they rolled around on the blanket together. Halfway through the service she casually mentioned that they were in the cry room that day because she didn’t want to put him in the nursery since he’s been running a a fever. 🙄 20 hours ago, frogger said: I actually think there are degrees and mixtures. There are definitely white supremacists out there spewing hate but I don't think a lot of people realize they are aligning themselves with these people. My family has multiple inter racial marriages. The mixed race has a very nationalist attitude and is very incorporated into the family as their own. They are all against "illegals". I hate that word but feel it best to repeat what they say because honestly, they agree to mixed marriages, help others of different races etc. Most I would definitely call xenophobic and also completely ignorant of other people's experiences. If you are an American of a different race but speak English etc you are fine but needing refuge from your own country? Too bad you are out of luck, go home. Just trying to relate the attitude here. 19 hours ago, thewellerman said: @Faith-manor (accidentally deleted the quote). I feel both of these things, and we did move. I'm finding the lines are drawn equally deep here, but it is unsettling because I can't tell who is who. Well, and there are so many devisions now, it is like a Venn diagram to figure out which section I should choose. I would love to go to a park day and let my homeschooled kids play, for example, but if I read through the various fb posts, almost always something shocking crops up. Arrogant and belligerent are the words that come to mind, and it is in stark contrast to the thoughtful and patient children I'm trying to raise. I've been thinking about this alot. It really isn't just churches. There are lines drawn in very unexpected (and yet when I think about it, not unexpected) places. I'm not sure how we, as a family, can escape it because our interests and activities lie within those groups. This isn't a direct example to my family, but to give an idea, it is a tricky time to be involved in something like shooting sports. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to be mostly quiet, and try a gentle word now and then and hope I can make someone think. I think of the children a lot. I have to keep my own children steady, but if I can also be a stable presence for another child who is being filled with these ideas, maybe over time I can help. I don't know. Edited because I typed decisions when I meant divisions. 19 hours ago, Spirea said: Agree. We are in sports and arts activities. Arts people are much more cautious. I went to a sporting event today and other than us, only one person was masked. There were well over 100 people. Also, we went to a homeschool activity in November and we were the only masked family there (we picked up our first illness in 2 years, a cold, not covid). I'm about ready to be done masking. At this point, I don't think it matters a lot. Our surge is done and I think the whole area got it or is vaccinated, but I mask to make others comfortable. I don't like that my kids sometimes mask in unnecessary situations just to hide behind the mask. A bigger deal to me than masking is stay home when you're sick and wash your hands. But the lack of masking in the above situations just shows that we don't exactly align with these communities. Most people in my area have stopped masking. I am fully vaccinated and continue to mask when I go into crowded places, and in places where I know the employees are required to mask (a respect issue). And when I don’t feel like putting on makeup. I’ve saved a fortune in foundation these last two years. 😂 17 hours ago, Faith-manor said: In my area, it is a mix of both. Before dh and so left Christianity the church we attend was an eclectic mix of people who did know the church doctrine, people who didn't, some who knew bits and pieces, and some who truly didn't care. The church was convenient to their home, and they liked the music and weren't at all worried about doctrine. Now that said, with that last group of folks, they didn't leave their children for classes nor did they attend bible studies or adult classes. They just came on Sunday mornings and for an occasional social event like the New Years Eve board game night. 16 hours ago, frogger said: Sometimes they don't even know it's doctrines. Many do but a large number don't. Maybe even the majority. Depends on the denomination, how main stream it is etc and how common it is in the area. Highly churched areas may have more people that just go to church because they grew up doing so and go to the parent's for the big Sunday dinner afterwards. You are right though, it is different in places where is not accepted practice to be a Christian. I have read all these replies with interest and found myself nodding along and wanting to quote so many in response that I’ve gone and confused myself! So forgive me if I quoted you and didn’t respond directly to what I quoted. One statement that I wanted to comment on and I can’t find now is that someone said something like going to church is awkward because you don’t even know who you’re going to church with. That is exactly how I feel! To be fair, our church leadership has handled the pandemic/political/racial injustice issues pretty well, I have to commend them for navigating these difficult years. But when I consider the congregation, it is comprised of almost all white people with the majority over age 50. It doesn’t look at all like the church described in Revelation 7:9. And I’ve seen their Facebook posts, iykwim. On February 4, The New York Times published an article by David Brooks addressing this phenomenon. I will link it, but know that it is fire walled. Last week’s Holy Post episode featured a discussion on the article. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/opinion/evangelicalism-division-renewal.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqYhkSlUbBybSRdkhrxqAwvXRybozi3v_JyGRSC1HiugUHYmb-kDLILBuYdYs1jDdRMNENPVnYs1O-dJlHh4nTRi08NzDkY4ZIi4xpMXvAmo71c3HUPVgrWLkKzTmebw6leGzs1fbaDO6WaGO2XwkdFt1sNAyIwHRrH8NxanGFOF33MAvnqtyQ8AnGkpTIXWCrPLqCB5hOd6ZbxG66gk-W-9RXDy7jsfLovtbM10UUQSaOSs5tWUs69pcO8cVP7L_LXMjcMn9h7YXDw94PZco9m67A8lHN4UPluv__hM https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-holy-post/id591157388?i=1000550565819 I am personally struggling deeply with returning to large corporate worship, and have found myself enjoying smaller gatherings (like, less than 15 people) of like minded people. I am sad, and it’s been very hard on my dh who is quite tired of having to explain where his wife is. Edited February 20, 2022 by Grace Hopper 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Hopper Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 23 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said: This has been my experience - and it’s really awkward because it paints the one pointing out the emperor’s nakedness as the villain. I am currently working with a small group of Christians in studying immigration and refugee issues. Our biggest conundrum is not how to actually aid those in need, but how to educate the church on the related issues (from an actual scriptural perspective!) because there is so much tension over the issue. One of the organizers received an angry email from a congregant once the aid group was announced, with the flavor of why-are-we-doing-this-we-need-to-take-care-of-our-own-first! One thing that has become startlingly obvious to me as we look over the materials is that perspectives and policies regarding immigration are heavily affected by racism. To be clear, this subject of racism is not addressed in what I’m currently studying; however, it has come as an observation to me that I cannot fully understand the plight of immigrants and refugees without acknowledging that aspect of it, foremost of which is examining my own heart on the matter, examining myself to see what forms my own gut reactions (ie, the indwelling Spirit or fear imprinted on me following the events of 9/11?). Our old church had a cry room, and I remember attending church after having my first baby, we elected to sit in there as a safer option for my little one since it was flu season. Another mom friend also came in with her baby, and they rolled around on the blanket together. Halfway through the service she casually mentioned that they were in the cry room that day because she didn’t want to put him in the nursery since he’s been running a a fever. 🙄 Most people in my area have stopped masking. I am fully vaccinated and continue to mask when I go into crowded places, and in places where I know the employees are required to mask (a respect issue). And when I don’t feel like putting on makeup. I’ve saved a fortune in foundation these last two years. 😂 I have read all these replies with interest and found myself nodding along and wanting to quote so many in response that I’ve gone and confused myself! So forgive me if I quoted you and didn’t respond directly to what I quoted. One statement that I wanted to comment on and I can’t find now is that someone said something like going to church is awkward because you don’t even know who you’re going to church with. That is exactly how I feel! Quoting myself to clarify, it’s not just about who I stand shoulder to shoulder with on Sunday mornings, it’s about taking a stance on who to identify with, if that makes sense. I can respect a spirit of unity in the essentials, and in the nonessentials, grace, but I’m finding that for some, their nationalism seems to affect how they determine what is essential. We recently went to dinner with a couple from church, trying to work on building up some friendships. Good grief, it felt more like an hour long job interview or awkward blind date. They were perfectly nice people, but I found myself on high alert mode the whole time, trying to listen carefully for any hint of something I knew would be a dealbreaker. Utterly exhausting. I think my dh is too embedded to want to switch churches, but I almost feel like starting with a clean slate would be easier than tiptoeing through the current minefield, or just numbing myself to remain silent when I deeply disagree. This will sound discouraging, but I am so relieved that my faith holding kids, now young adults, do not embrace Christian Nationalism. I believe many in my generation (later middle age) are beyond change and our future, as Americans and Christians, lies with the next generation. As Russell Moore put it, “We are Americans best when we are not Americans first.” I’m am grateful for his important voice in this conversation. 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said: This will sound discouraging, but I am so relieved that my faith holding kids, now young adults, do not embrace Christian Nationalism. I believe many in my generation (later middle age) are beyond change and our future, as Americans and Christians, lies with the next generation. As Russell Moore put it, “We are Americans best when we are not Americans first.” I’m am grateful for his important voice in this conversation. It does not sound discouraging. My kids give me hope for the future. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 17 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said: Quoting myself to clarify, it’s not just about who I stand shoulder to shoulder with on Sunday mornings, it’s about taking a stance on who to identify with, if that makes sense. I can respect a spirit of unity in the essentials, and in the nonessentials, grace, but I’m finding that for some, their nationalism seems to affect how they determine what is essential. QFT. Very well stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 4 hours ago, Faith-manor said: We watched one live stream in which during announcements which were done before the offering in the middle of the worship service, a petition for stripping the governor of emergency powers was presented and the whole service stopped while the pastor had an usher pass it around for people to sign! That is disgusting, and isn't it illegal, too? Haven't these people read Romans 14? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 This might be not really related but I have been thinking about this meme I saw a few weeks back… Drug companies make their money by creating all kinds of drugs to treat or cure or prevent disease. And the same people posting these kinds of memes are also radical capitalists…..and sneer at people wanting free health care. Does anyone else see a disconnect? 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, MercyA said: That is disgusting, and isn't it illegal, too? Haven't these people read Romans 14? I guess there is this grey area where they can stump for issues they claim are related to doctrine so long as they don't stump for specific politicians or parties. But she stood there in front of the microphone and claimed certain politicians which she named were of the devil, and anyone who did not sign the petition following the anti-Christ. It was so gross! I can't think of any other way of describing it. Just gross. I do think it crossed the line of legality. But as a former Christian, what bothered me a whole lot more than the legality was the entire disregard for the Gospel and the Epistles while still claiming to follow Jesus and the N.T. I have no expectation of any church to follow any doctrine perfectly because humans fail. I expect them to use a.little critical thought about such egregious behavior. And it was WORSHIP! The worship service, not even in the fellowship hall afterward where people who don't agree with that political position or think this is inappropriate could at least escape. Beyond the pale..... Today Mark and I watched a livestream from a little rural church in Kansas from the ELCA denomination. We have long lost distant relatives in the area, and a not so distant aunt who settled there in the mid-1910's, a set of cousins still in the area. We have talked about visiting the church when we go out there this summer - ds is writing a book of family history and lore - but it was important to me to check it out well enough to know that it would be appropriate for us. I don't want to be the lone, masked visitor in there who ends up fleeing in anxiety because of white supremacy, nationalism, political stumping, etc. It was refreshing! Simple hymns, no rock concert musicians, just a pianist doing his/her best, and gentle singing, lots of scriptures were read. A lovely and appropriate children's message with several children gathered at the pastor's feet was offered, and the sermon was also rooted in Jesus teachings. I got the impression from the things this pastor posts on their Facebook page, she promotes the Beatitudes and fruits of the Spirit primarily. We especially needed to make sure this church was safe because our middle son's s/o is traveling with us, and our precious we hope will be someday daughter in law is not white. Walking into the heart of a racist church would be devastating. The church social media indicates they promote racial justice and actively work toward this despite being a very white church in the heart of a profoundly, predominantly white area. We will watch several more live streams this spring to be sure, but as long as that is the vibe we keep getting, we will make an in person visit since this was the home church of my husband's ancestors in the area. The service really met Mark's needs today. Edited February 20, 2022 by Faith-manor 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 I saw this on FB, and it does describe the process I saw in my church friends. The relational connections were essential (and while they predate my connection with them, it was disappointing just how little my friendship with them influenced their thinking back toward normal, especially since I'm married to a HCW). 2 and 3 were also big. People were talking about why not to get a vaccine before one existed. A lot of those posts were taken down by FB, and I am sure some people even forgot they saw them, but I am sure they made a toe-hold for later disinformation. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 I read the CT article. I liked it. The other article posted was too long for me to read right now, but I skimmed it. These past two years have been hard for so many people in so many ways. Most of my immediate family are vaccinated and don't have a problem with wearing masks. I am an evangelical Bible believing Christian. Our church followed all covid rules mandated by our state. I live in a blue state and blue county. I am also an RN of 30 years and have been taking care of covid patients in the hospital. With that being said its been difficult in some relationships with extended family, friends and within our homeschool group. There are some close homeschool friends I have where I live that are antivax and I have had to pull away from them. I am on another homeschool forum and it is almost the exact opposite of what is here related to covid vaccines, masking, and mandates. I love most of the other women on the other forum, yet a few who are antivaccine, yet pro ivermectin and HCQ for covid treatment. Its a totally different vibe that I have stepped back from posting and even reading there. I may stay away permanently because it was so negative and I found myself only getting angry over some of the posts there. If these people would see what I have seen taking care of sick and dying covid patients, they wouldn't say such naive things. Since last Sept the vast majority of those hospitalized and the deaths at our hospital have been among unvaccinated people. Its frustrating in the past couple of years how some people who think they got their medical degree from the university of google, you tube and yahoo! This quote from the CT article is sad, "We estimate that the number of Americans who have died from COVID, for reasons relating to social and political identity, exceeds the number of American lives lost in Vietnam and likely approaches the number of lives lost in World War II. It is almost too many deaths to fathom, but we need to understand the magnitude of this loss. We need to allow it to help reshape our identity as Christians." As a medical professional and Christian, I have found it totally frustrating among Christians and homeschoolers, who push for their rights, my rights, me, me, me. Yet how does God want us to react? As Christians, our citizenship is in heaven not on earth. We are to love our "neighbor" and honor those in office. A Christian's identity is in Christ, not in a political affiliation. Also from CT article, "In his letter to the Galatians, Paul teaches that the Christian identity is to supersede all others. We are to be marked as people of love, joy, and peace, among other qualities. Many in the U.S. have adopted a socio-political identity that has prescribed a set of behaviors within the pandemic that have inflicted an enormous cost to American health and lives. Part of the prescription for this identity has been a tragic indifference—even contempt—towards the basic health-safety behaviors advocated by leading scientists and public health officials." At the end of the CT article, "Most importantly the prescription for our identity as American Christians must come from the values consistently laid out in Scripture rather than adopting our primary identity through an affiliation with any political movement, party, or personality—conservative or liberal. During the pandemic, we as a church have strayed from this at a tremendous cost." Sadly, more people will die from covid especially among those who chose not to get vaccinated. 11 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 3 hours ago, MercyA said: That is disgusting, and isn't it illegal, too? Haven't these people read Romans 14? The chances of the IRS not treating a church as tax exempt for violating the Johnson Amendment are very slim, especially given the current political climate. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 For those of you outside the Evangelical world who are bewildered by what you're seeing, here are some resources that explain different aspects of what's been leading up to this. This was not ex nihilo. It has been brewing and growing for decades. I can confirm witnessing many forms of these issues as they were brewing. There have been small minorities who sounded alarms, questioned, and warned about it in real time, but it fell largely on deaf or hostile ears. Not everyone bailed immediately, and frankly, I for one was tired of hearing for decades to stay and be the change I wanted to see. I wasn't leadership. Leadership didn't listen to me. I tired to correct and warn and saw a few others who did too, but none are so blind as those who refuse to see. Books Jesus and John Wayne https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-John-Wayne-Evangelicals-Corrupted-ebook/dp/B07ZTSVLX3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2JD5ST67HPGIG&keywords=jesus+john+wayne&qid=1645390970&s=books&sprefix=Jesus+JOhn+Wa%2Cstripbooks%2C206&sr=1-1 Immoral Majority https://www.amazon.com/Immoral-Majority-Good-Christians-Leaders-ebook/dp/B075WW678P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=C23XM5R2UWF9&keywords=immoral+majority&qid=1645391005&s=books&sprefix=immoral+majo%2Cstripbooks%2C161&sr=1-1 Articles Seeds of Political Violence Are Being Sown in Church by David Frenchhttps://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/the-seeds-of-political-violence-are?utm_source=urlPodcasts Holy Post: (many podcasts) https://www.holypost.com/articles/categories/holy-post-podcast The Roys Reort: The Fracturing of Evangelicalism https://julieroys.com/podcast/the-fracturing-of-evangelicalism-bethlehem-baptist/ 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 2 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said: For those of you outside the Evangelical world who are bewildered by what you're seeing, here are some resources that explain different aspects of what's been leading up to this. This was not ex nihilo. It has been brewing and growing for decades. I can confirm witnessing many forms of these issues as they were brewing. There have been small minorities who sounded alarms, questioned, and warned about it in real time, but it fell largely on deaf or hostile ears. Not everyone bailed immediately, and frankly, I for one was tired of hearing for decades to stay and be the change I wanted to see. I wasn't leadership. Leadership didn't listen to me. I tired to correct and warn and saw a few others who did too, but none are so blind as those who refuse to see. Do you think that a lot of churches will move on from this? I can totally imagine our most recent church will just wait until it blows over like nothing happened, just like people did with Satanic Panic and other things that have come and gone. They don't see these things as having damaged evangelicalism. They think, "Phew, glad that's behind us." I don't see a lot of churches changing, but I see a lot of churches just moving forward with no clue. I think some will call it a "falling away" and say it was prophesied. I am personally struggling with whether to say something to the pastor. I hear it's hurtful to leave without talking about why. I don't know that what I have to say will be constructive, but I think (after nearly two years), I can say it without rancor. I wasn't one to put up and shut up (though I started to get that way), but it's not like anyone really thought my opinion mattered outside a few people whose loyalties to others were deeper than my friendship with them. Our pastor (and others) said very specific things, but they didn't pontificate or give a manifesto. It was just well placed and was intended to be sort of, "Now you know where I stand. Like it or lump it. Let's keep doing missions. Yada, yada." No widespread persecution, but a lot of comments back to me that were meant to show the rest of the group (say, a Sunday School class) that my opinions were not typical for the group so that others wouldn't take my thoughts as representative. (There is a low tolerance for non-conformity except from the right people.) There were things we saw that suggested we'd likely leave when our 2nd kiddo went off to college vs. yanking them out of the youth department, but they were circumstantial, not a character issue or a lack of leadership. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 On 2/19/2022 at 2:51 PM, Pam in CT said: re how "nationalism" interacts, structurally, with "race" Pretty much all of the movements that defined themselves as "nationalist" over the last ~100 years have had pretty strong race-based engines driving the bus. Sometimes an out-group religious minority is defined to be a different "race" to get there (see Whoopi over the last few weeks). But the moment happening now in the US isn't truly "Christian" nationalism, so much as "white" nationalism. The movement isn't looking to recruit tens of millions of black and brown Christian Americans (any more that it's looking to recruit the much smaller number of fair-skinned blue-eyed Jews or Muslims). Like the "nationalist" movements in Russia and Hungary, it's attractive to, and utilizing the organization and rhetorical power of, the significant Venn Diagram overlapping circles of "white" and "Christian." Dominionist theology (and etc) provides a super convenient divine sanction for enforcing Our will, by force if necessary, over anybody and everybody in the way. From the inside of the circle of its precepts, it's establishing God's will. That is a powerful engine for recruitment, organization, and justification of really any action. To anyone outside its precepts it is indistinguishable from fascism. The core nationalist/populist idea is: only some of the people are, really, people. That idea is more often than not tied up, structurally, with race. I was flabbergasted when I found out that the "Christian Right" political movement was NOT organized around abortion, but around school integration! I mean, wow..makes so much sense when you know, but it's the dirty little secret of the Christian Right. 12 hours ago, frogger said: My personal experience is just more with people who are supposedly Christian but don't attend church or read the Bible. You cannot believe how often I have heard, as mentioned above, "God helps those who help themselves." I've read the whole Bible many times. Never seen anything remotely like that quote in there. 🙄 Just flashed back to my Intro to the New Testament class I took at FSU. There was a girl in the class who kept saying stuff like that, and the teacher would ask, "Ok, where does it say that?" and she'd say, "It's in the Bible" and he would sigh, and say, "Ok, you have one on your desk, we all do, show me where." And she'd get all flustered and admit she actually had no proof it was in the Bible, and of course, it wasn't. This happened over and over and over....she was convinced of all sorts of things, because they "were in the Bible", but NONE of them actually were in the Bible. It would have been funny if it wasn't so frustrating! (also, nice flash back to have, as I had a total crush on that professor, lol) 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookbard Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, ktgrok said: ..she was convinced of all sorts of things, because they "were in the Bible", but NONE of them actually were in the Bible. It would have been funny if it wasn't so frustrating! Reminds me of when my four-year-old brother grabbed the big family bible, took it over to Dad, and said, 'All right, show me where in the Bible it says that carrots make you see in the dark.' 2 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GracieJane Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Grace Hopper said: Quoting myself to clarify, it’s not just about who I stand shoulder to shoulder with on Sunday mornings, it’s about taking a stance on who to identify with, if that makes sense. I can respect a spirit of unity in the essentials, and in the nonessentials, grace, but I’m finding that for some, their nationalism seems to affect how they determine what is essential. We recently went to dinner with a couple from church, trying to work on building up some friendships. Good grief, it felt more like an hour long job interview or awkward blind date. They were perfectly nice people, but I found myself on high alert mode the whole time, trying to listen carefully for any hint of something I knew would be a dealbreaker. Utterly exhausting. I think my dh is too embedded to want to switch churches, but I almost feel like starting with a clean slate would be easier than tiptoeing through the current minefield, or just numbing myself to remain silent when I deeply disagree. This will sound discouraging, but I am so relieved that my faith holding kids, now young adults, do not embrace Christian Nationalism. I believe many in my generation (later middle age) are beyond change and our future, as Americans and Christians, lies with the next generation. As Russell Moore put it, “We are Americans best when we are not Americans first.” I’m am grateful for his important voice in this conversation. This is really interesting (sorry, I repeat myself but it is interesting to me). I grew up very much with the agree-on-the-essentials-and-grace-covers-the-rest attitude, though arguably some issues (like female pastors) were elevated to essentials that are probably not-that. Christianity is so thoroughly non-political (seeing that Jesus himself didn’t take any political stance on Rome or lead a revolution). I can understand people who vote by conscience, I can even understand people who won’t vote Democrat strictly on abortion issues (not saying it’s right, just that I can follow the logic). But the anti-vax, anti-mask thing doesn’t make any sense, I’m not sure when it became a biblical issue? Edited February 21, 2022 by GracieJane 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 3 hours ago, kbutton said: Do you think that a lot of churches will move on from this? I can totally imagine our most recent church will just wait until it blows over like nothing happened, just like people did with Satanic Panic and other things that have come and gone. They don't see these things as having damaged evangelicalism. They think, "Phew, glad that's behind us." That attitude from those types of churches wouldn't surprise me at all, but I think the difference now is the rapidly expanding numbers of dones (those done with attending formal worship in church buildings, but not leaving their faith) and nones (those leaving religion entirely.) My guess is the number of churches closing their doors permanently every year in the US will increase. This kind of stuff makes Christianity less attractive to everyone. I don't see a lot of churches changing, but I see a lot of churches just moving forward with no clue. I think some will call it a "falling away" and say it was prophesied. I don't either. There are branches of evangelicalism that are not prone to self-reflection, confession, and repentance when it's their own sin. There's some discussion of that in the book Jesus and John Wayne. I am personally struggling with whether to say something to the pastor. I hear it's hurtful to leave without talking about why. I don't know that what I have to say will be constructive, but I think (after nearly two years), I can say it without rancor. I wasn't one to put up and shut up (though I started to get that way), but it's not like anyone really thought my opinion mattered outside a few people whose loyalties to others were deeper than my friendship with them. Our pastor (and others) said very specific things, but they didn't pontificate or give a manifesto. It was just well placed and was intended to be sort of, "Now you know where I stand. Like it or lump it. Let's keep doing missions. Yada, yada."Yeah, I think of it as kind of like a low grade fever-easy to ignore or dismiss. I do think it's important to explicitly state why you're leaving if you have a relationship with the local congregation. It's human nature to make assumptions when looking at a void. I don't think it will change anything either, but it sets the record straight. What people do with the record is beyond your control. I did leave once because of serious issues with the senior pastor, but there were 2 elders (of 4 total) addressing those specifically, so I didn't feel the need to pile on. Neither did the 60%ish of congregants who ended up leaving, as did those 2 elders when the senior pastor and other elder refused to listen and abide by the church constitution. I've attended larger churches in a place experiencing what I call The Churn (high percentage of turnover so people aren't aware of who is new and who leaves) which is a different scenario. There wasn't really a relationship with people. It was very easy to be anonymous for years or maintain nothing more than an acquaintance type relationship with a few peopel. In those situations I just bowed out. No widespread persecution, but a lot of comments back to me that were meant to show the rest of the group (say, a Sunday School class) that my opinions were not typical for the group so that others wouldn't take my thoughts as representative. (There is a low tolerance for non-conformity except from the right people.) Low tolerance for non-conformity is sub-cultural. I'm from a big city out west where adults being prone to conformity are considered to have a lack of psychological maturity. Basically, arrested development. They're considered perpetual adolescents that never grew up and need the help of a licensed counselors to catch up to adulthood. Now that I live in The South it's really surprising seeing how cowed the typical person who grew up here is. I had a conversation with my spouse how discussion at homeschool groups and churches is eerily guarded and shallow. It's like a mild version of a movie where the new person starts picking up on something being terribly wrong when seeing everyone creepily restrained in their conversation because they're afraid the yet to be revealed menace will be displeased and there will be terrible consequences. I had a situation in Sunday school today. We're going through Mere Christianity. One guy (with indications of a certain political bent) somehow linked the discussion question to the whole, "taking prayer out of schools started this nation on the decline" point of view. I waited for someone to say something in rebuttal, but everyone was silent and uncomfortable. I had never heard political talk there before today. I've attended there 8 months. So I explained why as a Christian and a taxpayer I'm opposed to children hearing a Christian prayer in public school. A few voiced agreement with prayer in schools guy. Everyone who said anything, including prayer guy, was polite and respectful to me. So no persecution here either. (My standard for persecution is Fox's Book of Martyrs.) No one said anything in agreement with me at the time, but 2 spoke to me after with what seemed to be encouraging tones of voice. One, a retired school psychologist, told me he agreed that there are some things that the government shouldn't have anything to do with and that it was a good discussion. The other, a woman, asked me if I had been an adult education teacher of some sort because many of the points I made were familiar to her from college. Am I surprised? Not really. I didn't expect agreement at all or even support because I'm not wired or cultured to do so and it seems people here tend to be conformist. There were things we saw that suggested we'd likely leave when our 2nd kiddo went off to college vs. yanking them out of the youth department, but they were circumstantial, not a character issue or a lack of leadership. I understand. Different factors have to be weighed. It's rarely simple. Sorry you're dealing with all this. It's draining and frustrating. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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