Oy Vey! Folks If you have a moment, even though it is really hard to do, think a supportive thought for Anna Duggar

[Katy]

So the reason she stayed with him last time is rumored to be that Jim Bob made her a bargain that he would make sure to support her & her kids as long as she wasn’t the one to leave.  And that house they just sold for more than half a million to pay for the defense was part of the bargain.

The couple spent the 6 months after the raid opening LLC’s, mostly in Anna’s name, to hide assets.

Jinger & Jeremy had their own contracts with TLC because they were out of state. There’s no reason to think that Josh & Anna weren’t given the same deal or better. They upgraded housing, cars, and Anna’s teeth in that time before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, at a much more rapid pace than his lobbying salary would allow. 

If Anna filed for divorce she could contact a book agent who could start a bidding war for a ghost written autobiography. She could easily get 4-5 million dollar advance, keep half after taxes, dump it in an index fund, and support her & the kids on the interest without ever doing more work than two weeks of interviews with the ghost writer. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Katy
Typo

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I’m kind of surprised by what services other places have.  It would be almost impossible for Anna to get social services here, and I live in NY where I’d assume has a wider social safety net than Arkansas.

She would not qualify for a shelter.  The threat is gone; either at another residence or in prison.  A shelter that can take 8 people is unheard of here anyway.  They’d want to know if there are relatives or friends the kids could be farmed out to.  To sign up for food stamps, rental assistance and temporary cash welfare, Anna now has to take 7 young kids, Including a newborn, to multiple offices and probably more than once. She has to produce a lot of paperwork, including why her husband isn’t supporting them.  It’s probable that at some point there’s a back to work program and they expect Anna to go get a job to keep receiving any benefits.  Then Anna has to find a job, and she isn’t going to find one that pays nearly what she needs.  She doesn’t have the education or work history.  When she does find a job, she’ll need daycare subsidies.  Here, those are almost always gone because there’s only a fixed number per year.  If you’re lucky enough to get one, then you have to find a day care that not only has openings but accepts subsidies. Many don’t.  Anna then has to enroll the older kids in school but likely needs before and after school care, which rarely has subsidies, and holiday/conference day/summer child care, and that’s hard to find for older kids.  I have 3 kids, a master’s degree, and a six figure income and cannot find any of the above.  All of this for a job where she’s probably not earning much over minimum wage.  Housing, even with a subsidy, is going to be difficult.  Subsidized housing apartments are likely not going to be able to house a Mom and 7 kids and meet the stringent housing requirements that they have.  And there’s often a several year waitlist.  Housing/rental subsidies come with inspections, strict fire codes, etc, and so finding a rental house that accepts subsidies and can meet occupancy requirements for 8 people is another huge hurdle. 
 

Sure, she could write a book.  Or go on a news tour.  But Anna is likely dealing with a searing, very private pain and may not want to splash that everywhere.  And it’s also unfair to the kids.

Jeremy and Jinger negotiated their own contract because Jeremy, however annoying, is smart and educated and likely distrusts JB. I read their book and JB treated him terribly during their courtship and I’m guessing there is a level of distrust there.  We obviously don’t know, but Josh doesn’t strike me as savvy enough to negotiate his own TLC contract, especially when Dad was footing a lot of the bills anyway.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[KungFuPanda]

Honestly, I don't see Anna moving away from the Dugger compound.  She can't carry a show.  The camera just does not love her.  She comes across as lifeless.  A story line where she comes to life after being freed from this cult would be interesting, but I'm not sure she has the charisma or intelligence for that sort of comeback.  

She must be exhausted.  The day-to-day-work of taking care of so many young children doesn't leave much excess energy for long-term planning, even without the stress of current events.  She's in the weeds and probably too tired for an ounce of creative problem solving.  

Staying put probably gives her the best lifestyle she's going to get.  She's surrounded by people who are the least likely to judge her for staying. When you don't have the energy to move on, being told that staying put is The Right Thing is probably her one small comfort. Her kids have access to The Big House and family help and communal living.  They'll have a roof, food, clothing, and be surrounded by people who won't make fun of them.  I'm guessing once Josh gets put away she'll move in.  Someone has to take Jana's place when Jana finally leaves.  Ana seems like the heir apparent.  

I know her brother (?) offered to spring her in the past, but that was several years and several children ago.  I could easily take in and help my sister with one or three kids.  Absorbing a family of 8 into your home is beyond the space and resources of most people.  It a lot of places occupancy laws would prohibit it!

Finally, she probably really believes all of the stuff she's living.  It's what she's been taught her whole life.  She's married into fundy royalty with no incentive to leave (once Josh gets put away).  If she moves into the Dugger warehouse it's probably easy to shut out the world and just keep taking care of kids all day.  She probably has some guilt that it's all her fault and see her suffering on earth as the price for admittance to heaven.

My money says that if she does manage to break out in any sort of significant way, it won't be for another decade at least.  By then the gravy train will have completely dried up and some other, more entertaining, Dugger child will have long since beat her to what little tell-all cash that's available.  Anna has to be near a breakdown by now or sinking into depression.  She's probably using all her energy just feeding people, getting dressed, and doing her hair in the Gothard-approved curls.

[maize]

Re: how well the social safety net would work for Anna and the kids should she try to access it--I'm not encouraged by the reports of how that net failed the Turpin children, adults and minors, in California. They weren't even given access to the private donation funds raised for them.

Whatever choices Anna makes, the future for her family looks grim.

[Annie G]

Staying at the Duggar compound just transfers authority from Josh to JB.  And we know how well JB and M protected their own kids…

A gofundme initiated by one of Anna’s siblings would likely raise funds to support her for a couple of years. Ànna wouldn’t have the issues the Turpin kids had - why they were denied access to their support money is criminal.

It would definitely be hard for Anna to leave the compound, but it has been hard to live there, too. Choose your hard, girl.  Choose to leave and there will be support.  
 

I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s not. Her whole life has to be untangled and restarted. She needs professional counseling (Jill might have a name of a good counselor), she needs education, she needs people to help her.  I can feel for her and pray for her while also hoping she chooses to break free.

[Pam in CT]

re safety nets & DV shelters/ services

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

...Sure - but every place like that I know of is overwhelmed and has waiting lists for spaces just for a family of 2 or 3 - not for eight! Again, I have friends who have been in this situation but with only two children (three different women in different states, each with 2 kids, each in abusive relationships) and none could find an open place that would take them and their kids. All were full. And the abuse was more clear cut than this case - in reality, he is is not proven to have touched any of those kids AND even if he had, he's not allowed to live in the home anymore. So there is no emergency as far as needing to flee abuse since he's living elsewhere anyway. Any free spot in a shelter like that will go to the woman who is being discharged from the hospital from being beaten,....

 

58 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

...It would be almost impossible for Anna to get social services here, and I live in NY where I’d assume has a wider social safety net than Arkansas.

She would not qualify for a shelter.  The threat is gone; either at another residence or in prison.  A shelter that can take 8 people is unheard of here anyway.  T

...To sign up for food stamps, rental assistance and temporary cash welfare, Anna now has to take 7 young kids, Including a newborn, to multiple offices and probably more than once. She has to produce a lot of paperwork, including why her husband isn’t supporting them.  It’s probable that at some point there’s a back to work program and they expect Anna to go get a job to keep receiving any benefits.  Then Anna has to find a job, and she isn’t going to find one that pays nearly what she needs.  She doesn’t have the education or work history.  When she does find a job, she’ll need daycare subsidies.  Here, those are almost always gone because there’s only a fixed number per year.  If you’re lucky enough to get one, then you have to find a day care that not only has openings but accepts subsidies. Many don’t.  Anna then has to enroll the older kids in school but likely needs before and after school care, which rarely has subsidies, and holiday/conference day/summer child care, and that’s hard to find for older kids.  I have 3 kids, a master’s degree, and a six figure income and cannot find any of the above.  All of this for a job where she’s probably not earning much over minimum wage.  Housing, even with a subsidy, is going to be difficult.  Subsidized housing apartments are likely not going to be able to house a Mom and 7 kids and meet the stringent housing requirements that they have.  And there’s often a several year waitlist.  Housing/rental subsidies come with inspections, strict fire codes, etc, and so finding a rental house that accepts subsidies and can meet occupancy requirements for 8 people is another huge hurdle. 
 

Sure, she could write a book.  Or go on a news tour.  But Anna is likely dealing with a searing, very private pain and may not want to splash that everywhere.  And it’s also unfair to the kids....

All.of.this.  The two DV shelters in my area also have dismayingly long waiting lists, are prioritized based on imminent risk of imminent physical harm, and have one (1) room per family.  Section 8 housing subsidy applications have 2-5 year wait lists, eligible units have very strict occupancy limits, and eligible units are nearly always small. An organization I'm involved with has been trying to place a Syrian refugee family, a single mother with 5 kids in Section 8 for ~3 years; the occupancy rules require her to get 3 bedrooms and there simply are none. Anna would need 4.  And the employment Gordian's knot is just as Mrs T describes.

But to my mind the even bigger issue is her ability to navigate the complexity of figuring out what's even available to her and all the many many many hoops she has to jump through, in multiple stages, even to begin. There's nothing in her background that suggests she's built up the interpersonal communication skills or ability to persist in advocating for hard things that she would need. 

She comes across as deeply depressed and browbeaten into near catatonia. I am sure she is much much more than that. But the task of accessing vastly complicated and severely limited services requires someone with the aptitude, negotiation skills, determination, and stamina of... I dunno, Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Jim Bob would likely support her. 

Sure - but every place like that I know of is overwhelmed and has waiting lists for spaces just for a family of 2 or 3 - not for eight! Again, I have friends who have been in this situation but with only two children (three different women in different states, each with 2 kids, each in abusive relationships) and none could find an open place that would take them and their kids. All were full. And the abuse was more clear cut than this case - in reality, he is is not proven to have touched any of those kids AND even if he had, he's not allowed to live in the home anymore. So there is no emergency as far as needing to flee abuse since he's living elsewhere anyway. Any free spot in a shelter like that will go to the woman who is being discharged from the hospital from being beaten, or the single mom with literally no where to stay because her husband threw her out of the house. Not to the family of 8 who have relatives supporting them who are at no further risk of abuse at this time. 

And who are likely to have media attention follow them. If paparazzi followed Anna back they might well out a woman who's husband would track her down, potentially kidnap the kids, or attack those who are sheltering her if she won't go with him. This isn't a situation where helping Anna would be beneficial, but one where it may well harm their other residents. 

[Dmmetler]

In order for Anna to carry a show, she'd have to be the real life equivalent of Kimmy Schmidt-and she isn't. Frankly, I don't think any woman who has spent their entire life in Gothard circles could be, because it would take someone charismatic and charisma is something that women aren't supposed to be. 

[freesia]

The Sun posted pictures of them leaving court on Friday and I couldn’t get out if my mind the pictures of her looking at Josh as they walked. To me it looked liked she was realizing what he had done for the first time. It was bleak and full of despair. It’s all so sad. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by freesia

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, freesia said:

The Sun posted pictures of them leaving court on Friday and I couldn’t get out if my mind the pictures of her looking at Josh as they walked. To me it looked liked she was realizing what he had done for the first time. It was bleak and full of despair. It’s all so sad. 

She looked very sad to me, too. He was looking very stressed, as well. This was the first time that I saw the two of them look like the reality and gravity of the situation had finally hit them.

I hope she finally sees him for what he really is.

[gardenmom5]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:53 AM, freesia said:

Madisyn was born at the end of October. It would be too early for her to get pregnant I would think. 

She farmed out all the kids so Josh can s ay with her during the trial.  including the baby, so she can't be b/f.

On 12/4/2021 at 4:10 AM, Carrie12345 said:

She would need to know her legal rights in order to resist JBs threats. Who thinks she understands her legal rights?

She has family members who understand her legal rights.  Derrick certainly should understand her legal rights (he's a lawyer - I saw his law school graduation pix.) - and where to direct her for help.

11 hours ago, Catwoman said:

She could make a lot of money if she did a reality show that chronicled her separation and divorce from Josh, and she was honest about her former life as a Duggar wife. A network like TLC would probably be extremely interested in working with her on something like that. 

I’ll bet she could also get a substantial book deal.

I book deal could be cathartic.  I think her own show would be a bad idea.

9 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The likelyhood her brother or any other relative has the space and money to take in EIGHT people is very small. When he offered the first time she had way fewer kids. 

 

Her brother would probably have a better idea than her of where she could get help.  I would imagine she has zero idea - he knows there are local and state agencies that could help her.  

There are options - if IBLP likes their women uneducated, she doesn't know, but that doesn't mean family who escaped don't  know.

[Pam in CT]

an image worth a thousand words

18 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

In order for Anna to carry a show, she'd have to be the real life equivalent of Kimmy Schmidt-and she isn't. Frankly, I don't think any woman who has spent their entire life in Gothard circles could be, because it would take someone charismatic and charisma is something that women aren't supposed to be. 

This. Exactly this.

 

 

 

(and Kimmy had ~~0~~ kids when taken in through the kindness of absolute strangers who were living pretty dang precariously themselves.  AFTER the laughably small "benefits" she'd been sent off with had been stolen from her due to her absolute and absolutely understandable cluelessness.)

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

She's probably using all her energy just feeding people, getting dressed, and doing her hair in the Gothard-approved curls.

It was the hair and makeup rules that first convinced me that the Gothard group was cultish.

[73349]

I'm sure the state would be open to putting the 7 kids in foster homes (probably 2-3 each in a few) as a solution and leaving their mother homeless, but I'm sure that's an outcome she would prefer to avoid. She is now in a position to decide (hopefully with some maturity) what is the least horrific option.

[73349]

I'm sure he's been telling her they're being tested like Job, with the government playing the role of the devil, and just need to persist with the Cheerful Obedience™. Hopefully she is coming around to seeing who exactly is Satan-like around here.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Carolina Wren

[Pam in CT]

35 minutes ago, Carolina Wren said:

I'm sure he's been telling her they're being tested like Job, with the government playing the role of the devil, and just need to persist with the Cheerful Obedience™. Hopefully she is coming around to seeing who exactly is Satan-like around here.

As I recall, that story ended up with 10 dead kids, whose unnamed mother spoke up once and was never heard from again.

(While Job did indeed eventually get a batchful of new kids of unclear provenance, along with a nice new house and all his wealth restored...)

Let's hope poor Anna, and the existing 8 kids, fare better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(As happens with some frequency, the Jewish reading somewhat differs from the Christian, lol)

[Terabith]

38 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

As I recall, that story ended up with 10 dead kids, whose unnamed mother spoke up once and was never heard from again.

(While Job did indeed eventually get a batchful of new kids of unclear provenance, along with a nice new house and all his wealth restored...)

Let's hope poor Anna, and the existing 8 kids, fare better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(As happens with some frequency, the Jewish reading somewhat differs from the Christian, lol)

Nope.  That's the story we read, too. 

[forty-two]

40 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

As I recall, that story ended up with 10 dead kids, whose unnamed mother spoke up once and was never heard from again.

(While Job did indeed eventually get a batchful of new kids of unclear provenance, along with a nice new house and all his wealth restored...)

Let's hope poor Anna, and the existing 8 kids, fare better.

Interestingly, I read recently that a very common traditional interpretation for both Christians and Jews was that the restored children were in fact the children who had died - that God had resurrected them, thus making it a true restoration.

[lauraw4321]

I think the idea that Anna would need significant support from community resources ignores that she had lots of siblings, several of whom have left the cult, and several potential in laws who will support her and the kids while she figures out life. 
 

She is undoubtedly under tremendous stress, but she’s not doing any childcare / raising right now. 
 

I still predict she’ll end up living at TTH (JB and Michelle’s house) because it’s big and there are lots of sister-moms to help her. 

[Terabith]

19 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

I think the idea that Anna would need significant support from community resources ignores that she had lots of siblings, several of whom have left the cult, and several potential in laws who will support her and the kids while she figures out life. 
 

She is undoubtedly under tremendous stress, but she’s not doing any childcare / raising right now. 
 

I still predict she’ll end up living at TTH (JB and Michelle’s house) because it’s big and there are lots of sister-moms to help her. 

But none of those people have the resources to take in 8 people and support them.  And there are issues upon issues.  There is the financial, practical issues of needing a house, a job, day care, and health insurance.  There is the emotional issues....she's been a brow beaten member of a cult her ENTIRE LIFE.  She cannot imagine a life where she is not under the headship of a man.  She has a very limited education and a very limited experience in the world.  She almost certainly cannot conceive that things could be different.  She has been taught that this is all HER FAULT.  She also has the spiritual issues that she believes, deep down in her soul, that if she leaves the hedge of protection, she and her children will have coals heaped upon their heads and go to hell.  The head may well transfer from Josh to JB, but she cannot imagine a life where she doesn't have a man whose authority has been imposed upon her.  

There's also the possibility that her children are being held hostage.  That they are in the big house so that she CANNOT take them and leave.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Terabith

[lauraw4321]

39 minutes ago, Terabith said:

But none of those people have the resources to take in 8 people and support them.  And there are issues upon issues.  There is the financial, practical issues of needing a house, a job, day care, and health insurance.  There is the emotional issues....she's been a brow beaten member of a cult her ENTIRE LIFE.  She cannot imagine a life where she is not under the headship of a man.  She has a very limited education and a very limited experience in the world.  She almost certainly cannot conceive that things could be different.  She has been taught that this is all HER FAULT.  She also has the spiritual issues that she believes, deep down in her soul, that if she leaves the hedge of protection, she and her children will have coals heaped upon their heads and go to hell.  The head may well transfer from Josh to JB, but she cannot imagine a life where she doesn't have a man whose authority has been imposed upon her.  

There's also the possibility that her children are being held hostage.  That they are in the big house so that she CANNOT take them and leave.  

I agree that her kids are likely at TTH, but disagree that no one could support them. Anna grew up VERY poor and I believe her family lived in a trailer.  She could make it work with just 2 bedrooms for her and her kids, plus there are a lot of assets (real estate) that are solely in her name. 
 

I agree she’s been brainwashed. She’s been abused. But she absolutely could escape if she wanted to. Hard?  Of course. But impossible? Not remotely. She has multiple siblings and in laws (Dillards and Vuolos likely) who would help her. 
 

But. It will be far far easier for her to just remain with JB. 

[Farrar]

So much of this assumes that Anna wants out. I don't assume she does. Just because she's hurting doesn't mean she's not still utterly brainwashed.

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, Annie G said:

 Choose your hard, girl. 

I may need to adopt this phrase.  Life is hard. There are often no easy choices.

Edited December 6, 2021 by TechWife

[BronzeTurtle]

I keep reading the title and the contents of this thread and just thinking...why? why does Anna deserve any more sympathy than Josh? They were both raised in this cult. Both had their minds washed with this stuff from their infancy. He was up to his neck in what they taught about sexual morality just as much as she was. if what he did is evil (and it is) then continuing to live in the midst of it in any capacity is evil as well. Unless women are somehow inherently weaker-minded than men, she is just as culpable for all this misery she is bringing down on her own kids and the babies who were abused as he is by the very act of standing by him. The fact that she has less resources simply doesn't matter in the face of babies being abused. She's 35 years old, has a brain, and if you watch those videos she isn't passively holding his hand. She is clinging to him. after seeing that he was abusing BABIES. She knows what he did and say what you will about their cult, they know, they all know what was on those videos is beyond evil. aside from that you know she goes home and 'disciplines' her own kids daily.

Frankly it's a little disturbing how many people think she would be less capable or culpable or even deserving of sympathy because she's a woman who has been raised in the cult instead of a man. That goes right to the cult's teaching that women are the weaker vessel. If she is less responsible, then what they teach about women must be true. Anyone saying she's not able to leave or be her own person because of these teachings or the way she was raised but Josh is and knows better makes it seem like women are more gullible and weaker which is exactly what Gothard teaches.

[Annie G]

7 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I may need to adopt this phrase.  Life is hard. There are often no easy choices.

I adopted it from someone else…it often perfectly fits my situation. 

[BronzeTurtle]

4 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

In order for Anna to carry a show, she'd have to be the real life equivalent of Kimmy Schmidt-and she isn't. Frankly, I don't think any woman who has spent their entire life in Gothard circles could be, because it would take someone charismatic and charisma is something that women aren't supposed to be. 

This is gross and misogynistic. I can't believe how many people in this thread think of women in these terms, even women raised in an environment like this. No women raised in this cult can have personality?! really?! that's what they teach, so it must be true about these women? 

I happen to think very few people in general would make for compelling television, but that's really neither here nor there. i feel like i've stepped into a twlighlit zone where people hate the gothardites but believe everything they say about women.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 i feel like i've stepped into a twlighlit zone where people hate the gothardites but believe everything they say about women.

I think it is more that people believe what people say about abuse. Many of us have walked the domestic violence road.

[BronzeTurtle]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think it is more that people believe what people say about abuse. Many of us have walked the domestic violence road.

Right but Josh was also raised abusively by that standard. likely beaten pretty badly, brainwashed, etc. If he is culpable now as a grown adult making his own choices, why isn't she? She heard about babies being abused for his pleasure and chooses to be a part of it. 

if you're saying she isn't making that choice of her own free will because she's a woman in the cult instead of a man in the cult, that is exactly why the gothardites say women have to be under the headship of somebody...because they can't reason for themselves.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I keep reading the title and the contents of this thread and just thinking...why? why does Anna deserve any more sympathy than Josh? 

The first and most obvious reason: she's not the one who viewed those terrible images, Josh is. Secondly, she has most likely been lied to all of this time and has been desperately wanting to believe those lies.

I understand her forgiving Josh's infidelity. She showed remarkable strength in doing so. But now that she has heard the evidence for herself regarding the CSA charges, I agree that she is fully responsible for protecting her children from him. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 She heard about babies being abused for his pleasure and chooses to be a part of it. 

Give her a little time. It's been a few days. She's probably deeply in shock and running on autopilot to some extent.

[JustEm]

25 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I keep reading the title and the contents of this thread and just thinking...why? why does Anna deserve any more sympathy than Josh? They were both raised in this cult. Both had their minds washed with this stuff from their infancy. He was up to his neck in what they taught about sexual morality just as much as she was. if what he did is evil (and it is) then continuing to live in the midst of it in any capacity is evil as well. Unless women are somehow inherently weaker-minded than men, she is just as culpable for all this misery she is bringing down on her own kids and the babies who were abused as he is by the very act of standing by him. The fact that she has less resources simply doesn't matter in the face of babies being abused. She's 35 years old, has a brain, and if you watch those videos she isn't passively holding his hand. She is clinging to him. after seeing that he was abusing BABIES. She knows what he did and say what you will about their cult, they know, they all know what was on those videos is beyond evil. aside from that you know she goes home and 'disciplines' her own kids daily.

Frankly it's a little disturbing how many people think she would be less capable or culpable or even deserving of sympathy because she's a woman who has been raised in the cult instead of a man. That goes right to the cult's teaching that women are the weaker vessel. If she is less responsible, then what they teach about women must be true. Anyone saying she's not able to leave or be her own person because of these teachings or the way she was raised but Josh is and knows better makes it seem like women are more gullible and weaker which is exactly what Gothard teaches.

 

She did not view those videos.  She is not responsible for her husband's actions in any way shape or form.  Josh knew it was wrong when he molested his sisters and he knew what he did was wrong when viewing those images.  He chose to do those things and that is not a direct result of him being in the cult.  His parents knew his actions as a minor were wrong and did try to address it, they just did it in a shitty way that protected him and not his victims.  He knew to set up his servers in a way to attempt to hide his actions.  

It isn't because she is a woman that she gets a lot of grace it is because she hasn't actively participated in those despicable acts.  She gets a lot of grace because people who understand how women are treated in that cult can fully understand how, even with all the outside help available to them, it is still near impossible to get out. This is a woman who has been brainwashed to believe that it is Godly for woman to be controlled by men and all that that entails.  It takes a lot for women in abusive relationships to escape and that is when only the spouse is abusive.  Her entire community is abusive.

Edited December 6, 2021 by hjffkj

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Right but Josh was also raised abusively by that standard. likely beaten pretty badly, brainwashed, etc. If he is culpable now as a grown adult making his own choices, why isn't she? She heard about babies being abused for his pleasure and chooses to be a part of it. 

if you're saying she isn't making that choice of her own free will because she's a woman in the cult instead of a man in the cult, that is exactly why the gothardites say women have to be under the headship of somebody...because they can't reason for themselves.

There is a vast amount of difference between the experience of a first born son in that world and a woman. 

Josh has been SUPPORTED in making his decisions to do as he pleases. He has been enabled and REWARDED.

Anna has been supported in dismantling herself.

I think everyone in this thread has explained their arguments. If you don't agree, you don't agree. If you don't understand, I'm afraid I can't help.
 

[BronzeTurtle]

 

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Give her a little time. It's been a few days. She's probably deeply in shock and running on autopilot to some extent.

but the whole image of a desparate woman believing lies and being deceived is exactly what their cult teaches about who women are and why they need protection via a man. 

I guess i was operating under the assumption that she's known about all this for quite some time at least since he's been arrested. maybe she didn't know how bad it was, but again, i don't believe, despite the obvious cult teachings, that she was so dumb to not know something was going on. even with controlling men, she is a woman in america in the 21st century with a phone and was obviously let out of the house and on the internet. and isn't vapid.

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Right but Josh was also raised abusively by that standard. likely beaten pretty badly, brainwashed, etc. If he is culpable now as a grown adult making his own choices, why isn't she? She heard about babies being abused for his pleasure and chooses to be a part of it. 

Because she is not him?  Gently said - It’s not misogynistic to point out the abuse works towards its aim of changing and molding the brain and personality of a person to be submissive, lacking confidence, uneducated, vulnerable to manipulation, self-sabatoage and perpetual survival mode making it hard to ever really move from trauma to true healing. That’s what that kind of abuse does. I absolutely think some people can walk from that and heal to the point they fully become who God made them to really be, with joy, confidence and the ability and desire to educate themselves on many things that will improve them. But the statistics of who actually comes out of these situations able to do that are… dismal at best. You hold up Josh but for every Josh there’s 100 who are desperately trying to get it together every single day just to maintain a base level of normal in their new, hopefully healthier, independent reality.  And the truth is - that IS a tremendous achievement they should be so very proud of, not derided for still not being enough to someone’s standard. And Josh was a man is a very man oriented world.  Why would the abuser NOT have all the confidence to do whatever he wants?

Do not delude ourselves that the example goal is the option for all.  It just isn’t. For a lot of reasons that don’t mean we hate or think badly or whatever that demographic.  It’s just a sad reality that we pray and work towards making a little less true one person and generation at a time. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Murphy101

[BronzeTurtle]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

There is a vast amount of difference between the experience of a first born son in that world and a woman. 

Josh has been SUPPORTED in making his decisions to do as he pleases. He has been enabled and REWARDED.

Anna has been supported in dismantling herself.

I think everyone in this thread has explained their arguments. If you don't agree, you don't agree. If you don't understand, I'm afraid I can't help.
 

No, i don't agree that women are inherently more susceptible to any of this than men because I don't believe that women are inherently weaker minded, despite what they are taught growing up. 

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was asking for help. I just simply don't believe women are the weaker vessel when it comes to this stuff or deserve more sympathy. I don't think anna deserves sympathy for the way she is likely raising her own kids amidst all this. she has to teach her daughters and sons something.

if you hear someone in your life is watching babies abused for their jollies, no matter what, you don't walk out of that place with them holding onto them with two hands.

[Katy]

Some people rebel against abuse.  Others lean in. Anna’s the lean in type, it’s why she was picked for him, and it’s why she stayed. It’s got nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with her. 

[JustEm]

we truly have no idea how Anna is treated at home by Josh.  He could be a truly doting husband who seems to be incapable of the things he's accused of.  If he isn't a monster to her or her children directly and she truly believed that his molestation incidents as a youth were either overblown or simply a thing he was not going to do again because he received help for it, then why would she immediately believe the accusations?  Plenty of people have been deceived by narcissistic monsters and haven't seen the light until the evidence is directly in front of them.  Even then denial is strong in people who are already damaged from a lifetime of abuse.  

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

No, i don't agree that women are inherently more susceptible to any of this than men because I don't believe that women are inherently weaker minded, despite what they are taught growing up. 

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was asking for help. I just simply don't believe women are the weaker vessel when it comes to this stuff or deserve more sympathy. I don't think anna deserves sympathy for the way she is likely raising her own kids amidst all this. she has to teach her daughters and sons something.

if you hear someone in your life is watching babies abused for their jollies, no matter what, you don't walk out of that place with them holding onto them with two hands.

I think you must be misinterpreting what I and others have said.

 

[BronzeTurtle]

6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

There is a vast amount of difference between the experience of a first born son in that world and a woman. 

Josh has been SUPPORTED in making his decisions to do as he pleases. He has been enabled and REWARDED.

Anna has been supported in dismantling herself.

 

And if this is true, then he is just as brainwashed about his own actions and can't be held responsible for his demented sexual ethic that was melded into his brain from the time he was a small boy. obviously I don't believe this, but if the argument is that he has been enable and rewarded and such, that's the same brainwashing she received, just the flip side of the coin. except everyone thinks he should be accountable and she was just going by her training. this is sexism played out!

[lauraw4321]

16 minutes ago, MercyA said:

The first and most obvious reason: she's not the one who viewed those terrible images, Josh is. Secondly, she has most likely been lied to all of this time and has been desperately wanting to believe those lies.

I understand her forgiving Josh's infidelity. She showed remarkable strength in doing so. But now that she has heard the evidence for herself regarding the CSA charges, I agree that she is fully culpable for protecting her children from him. 

Yes. This. 

[JustEm]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

And if this is true, then he is just as brainwashed about his own actions and can't be held responsible for his demented sexual ethic that was melded into his brain from the time he was a small boy. obviously I don't believe this, but if the argument is that he has been enable and rewarded and such, that's the same brainwashing she received, just the flip side of the coin. except everyone thinks he should be accountable and she was just going by her training. this is sexism played out!

his cult does not teach that it is ok to sexually molest minors or view images and videos of that.  Even his parents sought some form of help for him when he did it.  They didn't seek the proper type of help for him or his victims but they didn't let him know his actions were ok.  He hid what he was doing.  He knew he was committing crimes and chose to do so anyway.  That didn't happen because he was brainwashed.  

[BronzeTurtle]

Just now, hjffkj said:

his cult does not teach that it is ok to sexually molest minors or view images and videos of that.  Even his parents sought some form of help for him when he did it.  They didn't seek the proper type of help for him or his victims but they didn't let him know his actions were ok.  He hid what he was doing.  He knew he was committing crimes and chose to do so anyway.  That didn't happen because he was brainwashed.  

you don't think the gothard teachings about sexuality give men a propensity to do this stuff? i will differ on that point. of course they teach it is wrong, but that doesn't mean much in the face of all the other things they teach about sex to men. i would venture a guess that there is a HUGE secret porn problem in that cult, and porn that most people would find repulsive or illegal. in fact, i would bet a large amount of money that what they teach boys and men about sex leads to all kinds of sexually abusive behavior.

[JustEm]

8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

you don't think the gothard teachings about sexuality give men a propensity to do this stuff? i will differ on that point. of course they teach it is wrong, but that doesn't mean much in the face of all the other things they teach about sex to men. i would venture a guess that there is a HUGE secret porn problem in that cult, and porn that most people would find repulsive or illegal. in fact, i would bet a large amount of money that what they teach boys and men about sex leads to all kinds of sexually abusive behavior.

A HUGE secret porn problem sure.  But we aren't talking about porn.  We are talking about him molesting minors while he was a minor and going on to view child rape to get off.  Those are two vastly different things.  He KNOWS it is illegal and KNOWS how to hide it. At a certain point when you are knowingly and willingly committing illegal acts you no longer get the benefit of the doubt. 

Anna has done nothing illegal as far as we know.  We have no idea if she protects her children from Josh in the home when he was able to be with them.  We have no idea if she plans to leave him or what.  If she were knowingly allowing him to sexually assault their children then she would get no grace from me. But as of right now, I can only assume she protects them within that household

[BronzeTurtle]

[Sentence deleted by moderator by request]

I am not saying women can't be victims of horrible awful stuff. for me it is difficult to respond to personal stories because in this case i'm honestly confused about what comparison you're making to anna and anything said afterwards will probaby seem tactless for even responding. i'm not in any way saying she is responsible for his actions or what he did, or that women in general are responsible for abusive men.
 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I am not saying women can't be victims of horrible awful stuff. for me it is difficult to respond to personal stories because in this case i'm honestly confused about what comparison you're making to anna and anything said afterwards will probaby seem tactless for even responding. i'm not in any way saying she is responsible for his actions or what he did, or that women in general are responsible for abusive men.
 

The point I'm trying to make is that there are perspectives you're never going to understand if you haven't walked a similar road. You've read pages of explanation and still don't understand, you're not recognising explanations as answers to your questions. Maybe it's not possible for you to understand, and I'm not trying to be a condescending jerk when I say that. Sometimes our brains protect us from understanding and if you've not been in a blatant enough situation, you might not know how to identify when that happens. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to lose my daughter when I'd already lost my son, and obviously already knew what it was like to lose a child. That's dumb. But that's what brains do to protect us, even, as in my case, when I didn't need to be protected from it. I didn't get a say in the matter.

I'm not saying your viewpoint isn't valid. I *understand* what you are saying. I agree with much of what you're saying. I'm just saying that some in this thread are operating from a perspective that you don't seem to have access to. Which is good, of course, because nobody gets this type of been there, done similar understanding in a nice, healthy way.

It's like when your mother tells you you'll understand when you're older, and you're pretty sure she's being an condescending jerk, but then you get older and still don't know what she could have said to have made you understand. Except in this case it is not understanding because you haven't had the shit kicked out of you *in that particular way yet.*
(I'm not trying to make judgments about your life. No doubt you've had different types of shit kicked out of you. Life is like that for most of us.)

Let's not worry too much about tact, lol. Nobody would give me a job in HR. If you want me to delete this, say so.

[Rosie_0801]

I have a problem with telling kids they can be anything they want to be. I guess it works fine for those who really could be anything they wanted to be. I guess some people have that experience in life. Lucky them! But in reality, sometimes life puts us in positions where, even with the benefit of hindsight, you still can't find any way you could have made a better choice.

Um. Yeah. Gonna shut up now in case you all start thinking I think the whole world revolves around me. I know it doesn't because my mother told me so from a very young age. 😛

[bolt.]

Josh and Anna were raised very differently. Neither of them are responsible for that, and both of them were terribly susceptible to it during their childhoods. However there were differences in (a) the gender-defined intent of their abuse, (b) the gendered methods of their abuse, (c) the end point of their abuse and their transition to adulthood.

The gender-defined intent of the abuse was to make boys into strong independent men full of toxic masculinity and superiority, while making girls into self-abnegating weak women without the ability to respect themselves or make their own choices. Josh was built up: it was fake and toxic, with far too much sexual content -- but he was taught to take himself seriously and make his way in the world. Anna was torn down: she was made less and less capable on purpose.

The gendered methods of abuse were consistent with the intentions: for boys and girls, opposite things are applauded or punished.

The end point of the abuse for Josh was when he became an adult in his parents' eyes. He had autonomy, privilege, and pride as he got married and became a father. Anna, however, was never granted this transition. She passed from being put in her place by her family of origin to being subordinate to her husband, never having the opportunity to accomplish adulthood. Josh has had years of adulthood. Anna hasn't started yet.

It was *after* his freedom and *contrary* to the role his family had for him that Josh chose his crimes. He was rebelling not complying. Nobody tricked Josh into becoming a monster.

Josh took real actions. Actual criminal intentional actions as an adult, following up on his crimes as a minor. Anna didn't do those things. She was deceived and manipulated. Just because Anna wasn't able to believe the accusations doesn't make her equally culpable as the criminal himself. And she still might not believe the accusations. She is not knowingly standing by a person she believes to have committed these crimes. Or, at least, not so far. 

Girls are not more susceptible to IBLP abuse than boys are. Girls are not being called weaker. They are intentionally more thoroughly and skillfully abused than the boys because they are being raised as the servant class rather than the master class. Can she break it? As an adult going through traumatic revelations about her loved ones? I hope so. It's not about blame. It's about hope.

[BronzeTurtle]

10 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

A HUGE secret porn problem sure.  But we aren't talking about porn.  We are talking about him molesting minors while he was a minor and going on to view child rape to get off.  Those are two vastly different things.  He KNOWS it is illegal and KNOWS how to hide it. At a certain point when you are knowingly and willingly committing illegal acts you no longer get the benefit of the doubt. 

Anna has done nothing illegal as far as we know.  We have no idea if she protects her children from Josh in the home when he was able to be with them.  We have no idea if she plans to leave him or what.  If she were knowingly allowing him to sexually assault their children then she would get no grace from me. But as of right now, I can only assume she protects them within that household

 i'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt at all! to the contrary. what i'm saying is that the cult's teaching on sex lead directly to his curiousity and actions towards his sisters and cousins, his secrecy about porn and the illegal acts, him getting into escorts and videos of kids, and that likely there are many more doing just the same in the gothard cult. he is not an outlier. all the men are brainwashed about sex and given a warped view of it as it relates to them being men. they are taught this from very young ages, no? And as adults they are fully and totally responsible for their actions as it relates to all this, even if they grew up being taught these warped things. he just happened to be the one who got caught. AND YES, once you are knowingly and willingly committing illegal acts you no longer get the benefit of the doubt.

in any case, i think the difference in my replies is that i think the whole method of 'discipline' in these families is abusive and she, as far as i can see, willingly participates in things like blanket training, paddling or using a literal rod, making kids beg for forgiveness for simple infractions, etc. i don't know why you say you 'can only assume she protects them within that household'. maybe i'm thinking of the wrong person and she has disavowed abusing kids in order to get them to be compliant a la gothard? if so i take back everything i've posted in this thread and apologize for being wrong. 

if she does do that stuff as a 35yo woman and mother, then my contention is that it is abusive and  not excused by the fact that she was brainwashed, any more than his sexual abuse is excused by being brainwashed, which is to say, not at all excused for any reason.

[Scarlett]

29 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I have a problem with telling kids they can be anything they want to be. I guess it works fine for those who really could be anything they wanted to be. I guess some people have that experience in life. Lucky them! But in reality, sometimes life puts us in positions where, even with the benefit of hindsight, you still can't find any way you could have made a better choice.

Um. Yeah. Gonna shut up now in case you all start thinking I think the whole world revolves around me. I know it doesn't because my mother told me so from a very young age. 😛

Me too!  That idea has always bugged me because obviously it is just a bunch of nonsense.  

[BronzeTurtle]

19 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Josh and Anna were raised very differently. Neither of them are responsible for that, and both of them were terribly susceptible to it during their childhoods. However there were differences in (a) the gender-defined intent of their abuse, (b) the gendered methods of their abuse, (c) the end point of their abuse and their transition to adulthood.

The gender-defined intent of the abuse was to make boys into strong independent men full of toxic masculinity and superiority, while making girls into self-abnegating weak women without the ability to respect themselves or make their own choices. Josh was built up: it was fake and toxic, with far too much sexual content -- but he was taught to take himself seriously and make his way in the world. Anna was torn down: she was made less and less capable on purpose.

The gendered methods of abuse were consistent with the intentions: for boys and girls, opposite things are applauded or punished.

The end point of the abuse for Josh was when he became an adult in his parents' eyes. He had autonomy, privilege, and pride as he got married and became a father. Anna, however, was never granted this transition. She passed from being put in her place by her family of origin to being subordinate to her husband, never having the opportunity to accomplish adulthood. Josh has had years of adulthood. Anna hasn't started yet.

It was *after* his freedom and *contrary* to the role his family had for him that Josh chose his crimes. He was rebelling not complying. Nobody tricked Josh into becoming a monster.

Josh took real actions. Actual criminal intentional actions as an adult, following up on his crimes as a minor. Anna didn't do those things. She was deceived and manipulated. Just because Anna wasn't able to believe the accusations doesn't make her equally culpable as the criminal himself. And she still might not believe the accusations. She is not knowingly standing by a person she believes to have committed these crimes. Or, at least, not so far. 

Girls are not more susceptible to IBLP abuse than boys are. Girls are not being called weaker. They are intentionally more thoroughly and skillfully abused than the boys because they are being raised as the servant class rather than the master class. Can she break it? As an adult going through traumatic revelations about her loved ones? I hope so. It's not about blame. It's about hope.

Maybe so, but MOTHERS, of which she is one, are involved here somewhere in all of this. at some point, women are still responsible for their actions in IBLP, the same as men. There are a lot of examples in history where people in what you call the servant class in your post ally with their abusers in order to exert power over their fellow servants. it happens all the time, in schools when there's a bully that gains a following, in places like concentration camps, in cults that have a guru, in homes where mom or dad is abusive. that doesn't make them less culpable or less able to to make the actual right choice in any given situation. they may be victims of something, but that doesn't preclude them from being abusers as well.

If anna is not one of these people who is blanket training her babies, making them be silent in church with physical discipline as toddlers, making them ask for forgivness for being kids, using a physical implement to instill fear and obedience, then again, I apologize for anything negative I've said about her here and I will delete all of it, or at least make a public post owning all my words as 100% wrong.

if she also truly doesn't believe josh did those things, or know it in her bones to be true, if she is really so naive to think he's innocent because of skillfully and masterfully being deceived i would be absolutely shocked. she would have to be truly without any kind of sense for that to be true, especially since she's been through all of this before with him. he has a porn problem she knows about, used an escort service to cheat on her, molested his kid siblings, but since he's saying that he didn't do THIS thing she believes him?  i find it so so so hard to believe that she didn't have an inkling and doesn't know it now to be true. by that logic, none of us can know either until he's convicted and pronounced guilty by the court.