Fascinating article in The Economist about Detransitioners

[Ginevra]

The economist

Spoiler alert: it jibes with what @Melissa Louise posted here a few years ago. The woman in the article was a lesbian, and presented as “butch,” but others told her this meant she was “really a man”. She began taking hormone treatments and had a double mastectomy, which we in society politely call “top surgery” so it will not sound so horrible. She had extremely painful effects from the hormones, which included vaginal atrophy that caused cracked and bleeding tissue. She has gone back to living as a woman, although she now looks like a man. 
 

One sad aspect of her upbringing was that she had very religious parents who believed in the whole “womanhood” thing and were dresses-only. This probably pushes her more to thinking she had to be trans, because she felt “wrong” as a woman because she was not into feminine things. 
 

Once she was on medication for depression, she realized her problems stemmed from mental health and not the “wrong body” theory. What she is “supposed” to be is a gay woman who presents as butch. 
 

I just thought it was a very interesting article and it agrees with quite a lot of what Melissa Louise posted about a few years ago - that the trans “movement” has a homophobic component and leads to lesbian erasure. I think we (society) are going to see a good bit of this over the next five to ten years, reflecting the”explosion” of FTM transitioning that was happening before the pandemic. In fact, I won’t be surprised if the pandemic itself precipitates a lot of rethinking among those who were transitioning before 2020. 
 

And I know it needs to be said: I don’t think this means *nobody* is truly transgender. I think it means transitioning has been too-readily offered up as a solution for gender dysphoria and the negative effects or side-effects of making that choose have been swept under the rug. 
 

I shall try to put the link in here but I’m sure you have to subscribe to read it all. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Quill
Add link

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

And I know it needs to be said: I don’t think this means *nobody* is truly transgender. I think it means transitioning has been too-readily offered up as a solution for gender dysphoria and the negative effects or side-effects of making that choose have been swept under the rug. 

I’m not mentally prepared to click on the link just yet.  
I am concerned about spreading the idea that (physical) transition is readily suggested and easily attained. Perhaps in some areas it is, and I’m just not exposed to that.  Where I am, I see a lot of social transitioning (and I’m using a lot as a relative term), but hormones and surgeries are many-years goals, if not pipe dreams.

 I’m not trying to debate any issue of after effects. It just worries me to collectively jump to the most extreme (for lack of a better word) assumptions in this matter.

I’m also biased with this whole issue of “erasure”.  The many young LGBs I’m close to are very protective of their T friends and community in general. If they’re not worried, I can’t see why I should be.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

am concerned about spreading the idea that (physical) transition is readily suggested and easily attained. Perhaps in some areas it is, and I’m just not exposed to that.

It’s a fair point. I think, like anything, it’s going to vary quite a bit by regional culture. I *can* see how certain regions would promote physical transitioning above being openly gay. 
 

I don’t think it is often or usual that people transition physically early on, but the messaging is there, so it’s easy to see how someone could think that is the thing they must do. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I have a young son who loves to wear dresses and adamantly wishes he was a girl, so that he could do “girly things.”   I am very careful to not give my kids the impression that there are things that only boys can do and only girls can do(obvious things like childbirth aside).  I don’t want him believing rhat he must be a girl since he likes to do “girl things.”  (If he feels strongly later on that he was born in the wrong body, that’s different)

I do think that rigid gender roles can lead to gender confusion in some circumstances.  But I also believe there are people who are genuinely born into the wrong body. 

[Wheres Toto]

52 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not mentally prepared to click on the link just yet.  
I am concerned about spreading the idea that (physical) transition is readily suggested and easily attained. Perhaps in some areas it is, and I’m just not exposed to that.  Where I am, I see a lot of social transitioning (and I’m using a lot as a relative term), but hormones and surgeries are many-years goals, if not pipe dreams.

 I’m not trying to debate any issue of after effects. It just worries me to collectively jump to the most extreme (for lack of a better word) assumptions in this matter.

I’m also biased with this whole issue of “erasure”.  The many young LGBs I’m close to are very protective of their T friends and community in general. If they’re not worried, I can’t see why I should be.

This is definitely more of what I see around here too.  I guess it isn't surprising that we are seeing similar things since we aren't far from each other.   I see very little stigma against being gay or bi around here (definitely among my circles but even among the more conservative folks I know).  

 

[plansrme]

I have not read the article, but I did read Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier, which covers this (and related issues) a good bit. ID is the book Target briefly pulled off of its shelves/website, apparently without reading it. Shocking. Anyway, if anyone is looking for more info, I highly recommend her book.

[ktgrok]

This is such a tricky subject! 

But mainly, as you say, I think it is possible BOTH that:

1. Some people truly are only going to be happy if they transition, and truly are transgender. 

AND

2. The emphasis on transitioning can make it harder to be a woman who does not conform to traditional female standards of dress, lifestyle, etc. Perhaps especially true for lesbians. This is perhaps also true for men who in the past would have been happy to be male but more feminine, perhaps even a cross dresser, but now MAY be pressured to transition. 

We fought very hard for the idea that your gender and biology shouldn't restrict you in how you live your life, and I do think we've lost that emphasis. I don't know what the answer is. 

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 

I do think that rigid gender roles can lead to gender confusion in some circumstances.  But I also believe there are people who are genuinely born into the wrong body. 

All this!

[RootAnn]

42 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I do think that rigid gender roles can lead to gender confusion in some circumstances.  

I have seen two cases of this in my small community. If you do not fit a certain model and you are unhappy, you must be in the wrong body. I think there is some social contagion in one case and mental health struggles in the other.

I don't know what the long-term outcome will be. I suspect we won't know for another 5+ years. Even in my rural area, it was not difficult for one of the young females to find a doctor to prescribe hormones (at 17ish). The irreversibility is what concerns me.

[Faith-manor]

25 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a young son who loves to wear dresses and adamantly wishes he was a girl, so that he could do “girly things.”   I am very careful to not give my kids the impression that there are things that only boys can do and only girls can do(obvious things like childbirth aside).  I don’t want him believing rhat he must be a girl since he likes to do “girl things.”  (If he feels strongly later on that he was born in the wrong body, that’s different)

I do think that rigid gender roles can lead to gender confusion in some circumstances.  But I also believe there are people who are genuinely born into the wrong body. 

Agreed. Our grandson loves rainbows, unicorns, purple, pink, and magenta, sparkles, long hair, cooking, baking, and sewing/crafting. He also loves power tools, Tonka trucks, swimming, tai kwon do (sp?), cars, and building things. We are very careful to let him know that none of that has anything to do with being male or female. It is simply the marvelous breadth of the human tapestry of interests and talents that make variety the spice of life. Dd and her husband have lost a lot of friends and been shunned by family members on both sides for letting him be himself, all of the folks shunning them are very religious people. The secular family members have been supportive. 

In my life, I have known so many people who have been horribly harmed by rigid gender roles. It is hard to stomach.

As for medical treatment for physical transitioning, it is pretty non-existent in my area. Medical insurance doesn't pay one dime of it, and it is grossly expensive. It is not something that anyone other than the wealthy can afford. In addition to that, we are very medically underserved so one is hard pressed in most parts of the state to find doctors in practice who do it. A few in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area, but Michigan is a large state so a ton of people don't live within commuting distance of that corridor. It really isn't all that accessible here so I would not make any kind of assumptions that what is described in the article is widespread.

I very much believe that gender does not go hand in hand with genitalia. The brain is so much more complicated than that simple construct. Much of what we perceive about gender is cultural/societal and often informed by religious beliefs which are not rooted in actual biology. So I do very much believe that some souls are born with the wrong body, but I also think maybe this would be less damaging if our culture dropped its stupid preoccupation and obsession with trying to stuff people into predetermined boxes. 

[Guest]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle, I remember you have talked before about your son. I think he may be a very good example of someone who really is transgender. I say that due to his young age, the persistency of his beliefs as you’ve described them (that he really *is* a girl and you all have just not realized it yet), and the unlikelihood of social influence at his age. 
 

I do know a person IRL that expressed this before ever being aware it was a thing, from a very young age. I think those are cases of “true” transgenderism 

[maize]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

But I also believe there are people who are genuinely born into the wrong body. 

What do you mean by this?

Is the person somehow different from their body?

Do you believe, say, that a pre-existing soul that was a male soul ended up in a female body? 

Or do you mean that part of the body (the brain presumably) has primarily male characteristics while the rest of the body is female (or vice versa) and how exactly would that happen as the same hormones that impact brain development impact physical development?

Aside from religious beliefs about souls (and mine is one of the few religions that does believe souls exist before the formation of a physical body, and also that souls are distinctly male or female) what does it mean to say someone is born in the wrong body? All parts of our body, including our brain, ARE the body.

[vonfirmath]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

It’s a fair point. I think, like anything, it’s going to vary quite a bit by regional culture. I *can* see how certain regions would promote physical transitioning above being openly gay. 
 

I don’t think it is often or usual that people transition physically early on, but the messaging is there, so it’s easy to see how someone could think that is the thing they must do. 

The person I know who transitioned did it rapidly. He did not live as a woman and then start taking hormones, etc.  But went  overseas and became a she very quickly.  Then came back and she started living as a girl after the surgery. I lost track of them so don't know how it worked long term.  This was almost 20 years ago.

[Guest]

@maize I’m not the one you asked - and maybe her views are different - but I think in cases of what I call true transgenderism, it is likely that something having to do with inter-uterine hormones (I think it is called the hormone wash) can cause/promote a bunch of variations which include homosexual (eventual) orientation and gender dysphoria (“I’m in the wrong body”), as well as intersex genitalia. 
 

*Not a scientist or doctor*

[J-rap]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

@Mrs Tiggywinkle, I remember you have talked before about your son. I think he may be a very good example of someone who really is transgender. I say that due to his young age, the persistency of his beliefs as you’ve described them (that he really *is* a girl and you all have just not realized it yet), and the unlikelihood of social influence at his age. 
 

I do know a person IRL that expressed this before ever being aware it was a thing, from a very young age. I think those are cases of “true” transgenderism 

Not necessarily.  Two good friends of mine had young sons just like this.   One grew up to be a makeup artist, and the other an interior decorator.  They are at ages now, and living in communities, where it would be acceptable for them to transition, but they have no interest.  At least one of them is gay.  

I think it's extremely complex, and that some people truly have gender dysphoria -- for reasons that we probably cannot and will never fully understand.  Transitioning may be the right solution for them and I fully support their choices.  (And of course there are the rare people who are born with ambiguous genitalia.) 

I think other times, it is not the right solution.  These trends do worry me, because I think people naturally long to find solutions to their discomfort -- we all do that.  But gender transitioning is so drastic and difficult to reverse.  

I live in a city of 300,000+, and I do notice people who I believe are transgender fairly often.  (By fairly often, I mean about once/week.)

I've come to know a pair of sisters who have both chosen to transition.  It's a particularly complex and delicate situation, because their father was completely controlling, abusive, and kept them locked in their own home for years (for one of the sisters -- it was for her entire childhood).  So I would guess that their decision to transition is more of a reaction to years of terrible abuse by a man.  But, for them, it might still be the right decision in order to find some kind of peaceful path forward, who knows.  Of course they will have a lot of other things to sort out along the way as well.

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, that's how pendulum swinging works.  There are plenty of personality types that tend to respond to someone going off one deep end: there is no difference in physical gender and psychological gender ever for anyone; it's a made up problem, and the other deep end: feeling ambivalent about sexual identity sometimes or a child wanting to dress or play according to the opposite gender stereotype means they need to transition chemically and surgically.) Add in that some people subjected to the former for decades have committed suicide, and you get certain people prone to leaping quickly into the latter fearing not doing so would result in certain or likely death. Yes, more and more fall between the extremes, but in our society, it's the people nearer the extremes that get the most attention and publicity. Americans culture just isn't known for being measured and thoughtful as a whole.

Our neighbors have a FtoM situation going on with their middle schooler now.  Dad is an ER nurse and mom is a vet tech, so they're people who have some background in medical issues.  They will allow the child to dress and live as M, but they flat out refuse to allow any hormonal or surgical treatment in childhood because of all the negative medical effects of both on a developing body.  And they understand, as the mom said, "We don't allow minors to make their own medical and legal decisions for a reason-this isn't any different." They're not opposed to the child making the chemical/surgical decision as an adult-they'd support whatever the future adult child chooses after the child has a fully mature brain that's  able to weigh the pros and cons with full understanding of long term consequences.

And as a feminist, I find the regressive definitions of feminine and masculine among many trans supporting groups not just insulting, but dangerous.  So.much.work. has gone into widening the definition of feminine and masculine. To (probably unintentionally) adopt those old stereotypes and then reject them as a reason to transition is bad news for everyone. I hear and read trans people saying things like having never been drawn to pink and sparkly clothes, dolls, giggly girls activities, not bring into boys, etc. and being into "boy" things like cars, sports etc. as evidence of being FtoM trans.  Those aren't.  Plenty of cisgender hetero and homo people don't match up with those stereotypes either. Yes, it's true of trans people, but that's not what qualifies them as being trans. A measured, thoughtful approach to clarifying identity is in order.

Also, mental illness has to be considered when someone is struggling, including with sexual identity issues.  Just like when you have a breast augmentation (I had one at 30 to correct a congenital defect on one side and has both breasts done to suit my preferences since I was already having surgery) they reiterate over and over to people seeking surgery, "This can only change your breasts, it can't change your life."   Of course they mean psychological issues cannot be fixed with physical surgery.  You need mental health assistance for those whether surgery is a good idea or a bad idea in each individual situation.  Even when surgery ends negative social interaction (not in my case, but in cases with people who have visible physical deformities and scars) those psychological issues from the past still remain.  People with mental illness can be prone to thinking surgery will solve their psychological problems when it can't-it can only change their bodies. So again, a measured thoughtful response about transitioning rather than assumptions are required.
 

[Dynamite5]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

which we in society politely call “top surgery” so it will not sound so horrible.
 

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

[EKS]

As a person who would have been diagnosed as trans as a child, I am beyond grateful that the message I got both from my parents and from society was that my sex was immutable while at the same time, gender roles were, especially for women, rapidly expanding.  So I made peace with my body and now live in the world as an androgynous woman.

I think it is a tragedy that all of the progress we have made as a society in allowing folks to be who they are regardless of their biological sex is now going the other way.  The whole trans movement seems to be based on the idea that gender norms are so fixed that the only way to feel right in the world is to change one's body to align with one's soul.  This attitude is wrong and dangerous.

That said, I have no problem with adults deciding to do whatever they choose with their own bodies.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by EKS

[EKS]

27 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

How is that offensive and dismissive?  It is totally correct.  In any other context, we would consider gender affirming surgeries to be a form of mutilation.

Edited November 9, 2021 by EKS

[Terabith]

This is a hard subject for me.  I have (a statistically unlikely) number of friends who are definitely, clearly trans and whose bodies that they were born with were simply wrong.  These people’s dysphoria was immediately and completely relieved by physical and social transitioning. Being trans genuinely was the source of their distress that had begun early on and been insistent and consistent despite social environments that were incredibly hostile towards trans folx. Frankly, @Mrs Tiggywinkle’s kid sounds like he’s in this category. 
 

I also think that somewhere around 2010 the social environment changed, and while greater acceptance of trans people was WONDERFUL, the pendulum swung too far.  Gate keeping for treatment went from far too stringent to, at least in some areas, nonexistent.  Any sense of not fitting into society or artificially strict gender roles became evidence of being on the trans spectrum.  My non binary kid does seem to have some real dysphoria around having breasts, but the claim to identity appears to be that when think about themselves, gender is not a central part.  They are “just them.”  Which, holy hell, if that’s the definition, I am nonbinary and about 70% of the people I know are.  I am so confused about how my kids who were raised with “every color is for everyone,” and “there are no boy toys or girl toys,” came to this belief that only wanting to wear makeup sometimes means you aren’t a woman. My youngest kid, who never really fit into strict gender roles but never questioned their identity, is fine with being female, but my kid who was all ballet, Barbies, frilly dresses, pink and purple (and still loves these things) is non-binary?  I am truly not transphobic, I don’t think, but I feel like the zillion categories that now exist create issues as well. 
 

I don’t think we’re going to get away without top surgery for my oldest, and I am worried about it because it’s so permanent.  I say this as someone who would have been perfectly happy to have had my own removed when I had a breast reduction.  I am worried that my oldest’s dysphoria is more related to fear of growing up than gender.  They have said they just want the body they had at ten.  And…that ship has sailed.  And the psychological therapists and doctors don’t want to explore any of that because they are terrified of being labeled transphobic if they don’t rubber stamp physical transition even for young teens, even if that’s not what is recommended by even trans health advocates.  
 

So, yeah. I think @ktgrok is right that both genuine trans people who need access to services and support exist and also that things have swung too far in terms of identity and gender roles.  There seems to be far less space for butch women and femme men than there used to be, and I think that’s really problematic. 

[maize]

27 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

At face value, a double mastectomy is a double mastectomy. Why should it be referred to by a euphemism?

[Dynamite5]

6 minutes ago, EKS said:

How is that offensive and dismissive?  It is totally correct.  In any other context, we would consider gender affirming surgeries to be mutilation.

Top surgery is not just used by "polite society"--it is also used by medical professionals. Here's a link that might be helpful:  https://www.allure.com/story/top-surgery-mastectomy-difference 

There was a discussion a few months back where Quill jumped onto the fact that people like her nephew were having "top surgery" and not calling it was it was. I see this "polite society" comment as piling onto that sentiment. It's possible that Quill (and many others) don't fully understand how offensive it would feel to someone undergoing the transition to say that we are only using the term "top surgery" to be polite. I'm hopeful that reading the above article will be helpful.

My MIL and SIL and several friends I know have had breast reduction surgery. I would never refer to that as mutilation. It was something they needed to do to be comfortable in their own bodies. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Dynamite5 said:

Top surgery is not just used by "polite society"--it is also used by medical professionals. Here's a link that might be helpful:  https://www.allure.com/story/top-surgery-mastectomy-difference 

There was a discussion a few months back where Quill jumped onto the fact that people like her nephew were having "top surgery" and not calling it was it was. I see this "polite society" comment as piling onto that sentiment. It's possible that Quill (and many others) don't fully understand how offensive it would feel to someone undergoing the transition to say that we are only using the term "top surgery" to be polite. I'm hopeful that reading the above article will be helpful.

My MIL and SIL and several friends I know have had breast reduction surgery. I would never refer to that as mutilation. It was something they needed to do to be comfortable in their own bodies. 

So you don't like Quill calling it a mastectomy but don't mind me calling it and other gender affirming surgeries "mutilation"?

[Terabith]

I also am frustrated and somewhat frightened that in support groups for parents of trans kids, it is completely unacceptable to question anything your child says.  When people come and say, "I'm a little concerned that my kid, who never expressed any challenges with their gender until age 15, when they made a whole bunch of trans friends and started immersing themselves in youtube videos about various isms has suddenly decided that they must immediately transition," those parents are SHUT DOWN hard and told that if they question even to themselves whether this is genuine, that their child will commit suicide and that they are terrible, horrible, transphobic people.  There is absolutely no space (other than here) where reasoned, nuanced concerns can be addressed.  

I hate that we changed my kid's name.  I mean, I cannot express how much I hate it.  It is a source of major grief that I can no longer refer to them as daughter.  I hate that things like old pictures are incredibly fraught, and that I can't hang Christmas ornaments with their old name or put out the plates that they drew on with their old name.  I feel like not only was their entire childhood erased, but that my own experience as a mother was eliminated.  I hate that my understanding of how they experienced the world has been completely wrong.  I mean, not gender related, but when we sent my oldest to school in fourth grade, we took them to tour all of the options.  They picked the school to attend.  They repeatedly told everyone who would listen how much they loved their school.  They made up a song and a dance about how much they loved their school.  They got their little sister insanely jealous, so we sent her to school the next year.  They got up eagerly and excitedly to go to the school that they proclaimed they loved.  They seemed confident, competent, and comfortable in their skin the entire time they attended that school.  We offered the opportunity to change schools at least once while they were attending, but they turned us down.  But now they say they were miserable and it was the worst school ever. Like, how was I supposed to know???  I feel the same way about their gender identity.  You gave us NO SIGNS.  

And I hate that there is nowhere I can grieve that.  I cannot talk about it with my husband, who is terrified if we, even to ourselves, question the reality, because he is so terrified it will lead to fatal consequences.  I hate that I cannot even talk about it with my own therapist, because to do so is politically incorrect.  Weirdly, the only person in my real life who makes space for that is a trans friend, who is like, "Doctors sending you out of the room to ask your 15 year old if they want hormones against your will is wrong and contrary to trans affirming guidelines."  

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

No, I do not retract. As a breast cancer survivor who was advised it was unnecessary for me to have a double mastectomy to improve my prognosis, I do believe it is euphemized as “top surgery” for FTM transitioners so as to minimize the *fact* that both breasts are being surgically removed. Words serve purposes. The medical term for the surgical procedure of removing both breasts is a double mastectomy, it is not “top surgery”. 

[HS Mom in NC]

59 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

Have you not heard cancer patients who've had double mastectomies talk about the severe physical and psychological demands of having body parts removed, even for very good medical reasons? I have- 4 breast cancer patients to date in my personal experience and a couple of people who had uteruses and ovaries no longer needed for baby making removed talk about it.  Physical recovery is extremely demanding and trying to shut them down when they talk about it is simply wrong.

I don't think she's the one being offensive and dismissive, I think you are by not considering the full range of reactions people can have to this and equating the horrors (to many people) of complete removal of an organ, as I said, even for every good medical reasons. That's part of the problem here, a fundamentalist type attitude like yours about trans issues that react to complex, nuanced, varied views and reactions to the practical issues involved as some sort of heretical attitude. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by HS Mom in NC

[maize]

30 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I also am frustrated and somewhat frightened that in support groups for parents of trans kids, it is completely unacceptable to question anything your child says.  When people come and say, "I'm a little concerned that my kid, who never expressed any challenges with their gender until age 15, when they made a whole bunch of trans friends and started immersing themselves in youtube videos about various isms has suddenly decided that they must immediately transition," those parents are SHUT DOWN hard and told that if they question even to themselves whether this is genuine, that their child will commit suicide and that they are terrible, horrible, transphobic people.  There is absolutely no space (other than here) where reasoned, nuanced concerns can be addressed.  

I hate that we changed my kid's name.  I mean, I cannot express how much I hate it.  It is a source of major grief that I can no longer refer to them as daughter.  I hate that things like old pictures are incredibly fraught, and that I can't hang Christmas ornaments with their old name or put out the plates that they drew on with their old name.  I feel like not only was their entire childhood erased, but that my own experience as a mother was eliminated.  I hate that my understanding of how they experienced the world has been completely wrong.  I mean, not gender related, but when we sent my oldest to school in fourth grade, we took them to tour all of the options.  They picked the school to attend.  They repeatedly told everyone who would listen how much they loved their school.  They made up a song and a dance about how much they loved their school.  They got their little sister insanely jealous, so we sent her to school the next year.  They got up eagerly and excitedly to go to the school that they proclaimed they loved.  They seemed confident, competent, and comfortable in their skin the entire time they attended that school.  We offered the opportunity to change schools at least once while they were attending, but they turned us down.  But now they say they were miserable and it was the worst school ever. Like, how was I supposed to know???  I feel the same way about their gender identity.  You gave us NO SIGNS.  

And I hate that there is nowhere I can grieve that.  I cannot talk about it with my husband, who is terrified if we, even to ourselves, question the reality, because he is so terrified it will lead to fatal consequences.  I hate that I cannot even talk about it with my own therapist, because to do so is politically incorrect.  Weirdly, the only person in my real life who makes space for that is a trans friend, who is like, "Doctors sending you out of the room to ask your 15 year old if they want hormones against your will is wrong and contrary to trans affirming guidelines."  

(((Terabith)))

This kind of re-writing of history is extremely common with mental illness. It isn't, I think, usually done intentionally or knowingly; but feelings of depression and negativity can cause people to view the past through an entirely negative lens that doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with the way they actually experienced life at the time. 

The role that mental health struggles play in warping perceptions is I think not given enough consideration in the current push to affirm affirm affirm when anyone presents with the suggestion they might be trans. If some of these thoughts might be driven by a brain that is struggling to function, affirming and reinforcing them is a completely irrational response.

It is the opposite of sound scientific practice.

Edited November 9, 2021 by maize

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

There was a discussion a few months back where Quill jumped onto the fact that people like her nephew were having "top surgery" and not calling it was it was. I see this "polite society" comment as piling onto that sentiment. It's possible that Quill (and many others) don't fully understand how offensive it would feel to someone undergoing the transition to say that we are only using the term "top surgery" to be polite. I'm hopeful that reading the above article will be helpful.

That is the discussion that informed my view on calling it “top surgery,” yes. I do not see how it is offensive to call it a double mastectomy. That is what it factually is. What purpose is served by calling it “top surgery,” other than minimizing the seriousness and removing an association with removing *diseased* tissue? 

[Scarlett]

33 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I also am frustrated and somewhat frightened that in support groups for parents of trans kids, it is completely unacceptable to question anything your child says.  When people come and say, "I'm a little concerned that my kid, who never expressed any challenges with their gender until age 15, when they made a whole bunch of trans friends and started immersing themselves in youtube videos about various isms has suddenly decided that they must immediately transition," those parents are SHUT DOWN hard and told that if they question even to themselves whether this is genuine, that their child will commit suicide and that they are terrible, horrible, transphobic people.  There is absolutely no space (other than here) where reasoned, nuanced concerns can be addressed.  

I hate that we changed my kid's name.  I mean, I cannot express how much I hate it.  It is a source of major grief that I can no longer refer to them as daughter.  I hate that things like old pictures are incredibly fraught, and that I can't hang Christmas ornaments with their old name or put out the plates that they drew on with their old name.  I feel like not only was their entire childhood erased, but that my own experience as a mother was eliminated.  I hate that my understanding of how they experienced the world has been completely wrong.  I mean, not gender related, but when we sent my oldest to school in fourth grade, we took them to tour all of the options.  They picked the school to attend.  They repeatedly told everyone who would listen how much they loved their school.  They made up a song and a dance about how much they loved their school.  They got their little sister insanely jealous, so we sent her to school the next year.  They got up eagerly and excitedly to go to the school that they proclaimed they loved.  They seemed confident, competent, and comfortable in their skin the entire time they attended that school.  We offered the opportunity to change schools at least once while they were attending, but they turned us down.  But now they say they were miserable and it was the worst school ever. Like, how was I supposed to know???  I feel the same way about their gender identity.  You gave us NO SIGNS.  

And I hate that there is nowhere I can grieve that.  I cannot talk about it with my husband, who is terrified if we, even to ourselves, question the reality, because he is so terrified it will lead to fatal consequences.  I hate that I cannot even talk about it with my own therapist, because to do so is politically incorrect.  Weirdly, the only person in my real life who makes space for that is a trans friend, who is like, "Doctors sending you out of the room to ask your 15 year old if they want hormones against your will is wrong and contrary to trans affirming guidelines."  

This is a wonderful post.  Thank you for being so honest about all of that.  

[SanDiegoMom]

33 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I hate that my understanding of how they experienced the world has been completely wrong.  I mean, not gender related, but when we sent my oldest to school in fourth grade, we took them to tour all of the options.  They picked the school to attend.  They repeatedly told everyone who would listen how much they loved their school.  They made up a song and a dance about how much they loved their school.  They got their little sister insanely jealous, so we sent her to school the next year.  They got up eagerly and excitedly to go to the school that they proclaimed they loved.  They seemed confident, competent, and comfortable in their skin the entire time they attended that school.  We offered the opportunity to change schools at least once while they were attending, but they turned us down.  But now they say they were miserable and it was the worst school ever. Like, how was I supposed to know???  I feel the same way about their gender identity.  You gave us NO SIGNS.  

 

Agree with the previous poster about depression and mental illness will cause someone to rewrite history in their heads.  Agree as well about a lot of kids being so afraid of growing up that this feels like the solution.  There is such a weird mix of sheltering kids (my kids have been sheltered and they absolutely would have preferred to stay prepubscent, when life was easy and fun and with none of the crazy scary emotions that puberty brought -- their brains are on fire!) and then the internet and social media is dropping in porn in ever increasing weird and violent ways.  They are getting anime porn from friends, they are getting it through discord, gaming groups... and they don't know how to process it.  It scares them.   

 

Another thing I see in these kids, especially those that tend toward autism (and more recent studies are showing that autistic teens and young adults are making up a large proportion of those identifying as trans) is that they see this as a simple solution with steps to solve a multifaceted problem.  There is this undefinable distress -- puberty, social akwardness, sensory issues, depression, isolation, and the idea of there being ONE reason that could fix these issues is very alluring. 

[Junie]

(((Terabith)))

[catz]

To be fair, medical professionals call it top surgery because it uses different techniques and reconstruction than those having a double mastectomy to treat or avoid cancer.  

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/top-surgery-for-transgender-men/about/pac-20469462

Quote - Top surgery involves more than a mastectomy for the treatment of breast cancer. Special techniques are used to contour and reduce the chest wall ....

Why argue about semantics?  It's major surgery.  The description above from mayo is pretty graphic with description and risk and mentions mental health evaluations.  This description insinuates it may be more invasive than a typical mastectomy (and they do use the term subcutaneous mastectomy in the description too).  No one should undergo major surgery without fully understanding the risks and those mental health care checks in place. 

We are in a LGBTQ friendly area.  We know trans kids.  Most of the kids we know that transitioned were clear with their choices.  That said we also know a couple kids that detransitioned/changed their label.  The road to any medical intervention was long for all and things like top surgery are not discussed for many years and never with minors.  

To me it sounds like the person featured in this story had a traumatic and abusive childhood and she didn't fit into the box and that will do a number on your psyche.  Clearly some medical professionals failed her along the way as well.  Mental health care has been a HUGE part of the trans kids we know transitions.  My daughter (who identifies as lesbian, I think, she hasn't labelled herself fully to me) has a really good FtM trans friend and she is a huge advocate for him and his needs.  He is 17 now.  He always said he was a boy basically.  

And as an aside my lesbian kid is a girly girl in terms of presentation and has always been a girly girl.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, maize said:

(((Terabith)))

This kind of re-writing of history is extremely common with mental illness. It isn't, I think, usually done intentionally or knowingly; but feelings of depression and negativity can cause people to view the past through an entirely negative lens that doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with the way they actually experienced life at the time. 

The role that mental health struggles play in warping perceptions is I think not given enough consideration in the current push to affirm affirm affirm when anyone presents with the suggestion they might be trans. If some of these thoughts might be driven by a brain that is struggling to function, affirming and reinforcing them is a completely irrational response.

It is the opposite of sound scientific practice.

I have gone through this with two people in my life who are very close to me.  It is very distressing for everyone.  

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Another thing I see in these kids, especially those that tend toward autism (and more recent studies are showing that autistic teens and young adults are making up a large proportion of those identifying as trans) is that they see this as a simple solution with steps to solve a multifaceted problem.  There is this undefinable distress -- puberty, social akwardness, sensory issues, depression, isolation, and the idea of there being ONE reason that could fix these issues is very alluring. 

Yeah, the link between autism and being trans is an interesting one, too.  My youngest has an autism diagnosis, and while I never would have considered my oldest to be autistic, the older they get, the more I wonder.  At the very least, I think there are some general "autism phenotype" stuff going on.  I think it's also quite possible that both autism and gender identity issues are partially formed by in utero hormones.  

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

@maize I’m not the one you asked - and maybe her views are different - but I think in cases of what I call true transgenderism, it is likely that something having to do with inter-uterine hormones (I think it is called the hormone wash) can cause/promote a bunch of variations which include homosexual (eventual) orientation and gender dysphoria (“I’m in the wrong body”), as well as intersex genitalia. 
 

*Not a scientist or doctor*

I think you will find that the studies most cited as proof of "true" transgenderism are poor quality and inconclusive.   I personally believe that gender ideology is a belief system with no science to back it up.  However, I also believe very strongly that there are people whose dysphoria is so severe -- (dysphoria which can stem from different sources for different people) and the best solution is transition.  It is semantics, but I think language is very important and the idea that someone can be born in the wrong body is extremely disingenuous.  

[livetoread]

FWIW, I have a close friend whose daughter, starting around four or five, insisted she was a boy. The family and her social circle were very accepting of gender nonconformity and she was given space to "be a boy" whatever that meant to her as long as she felt that. This was 15 years ago when transitioning for kids was pretty unheard of. Fast forward and now she is 21 and identifies as a woman. Her trans talk slowly died down over the years. She still does not present as feminine, and I don't know her sexual orientation, but I know she identifies as female.

So yeah, could have gone all sorts of ways, but in this case, a kid who was really and completely adamant she was a boy for several years as a youngster grew out of it. Would she have now with the emphasis on labeling? I don't know.

Editing to add, also, it's not like the story is done here, either. Maybe she really is trans and in a few years will lean that way. All I know is for the last 8-9 years, she identified as female which was unexpected given how early and adamant she was about being a boy.

Edited November 9, 2021 by livetoread

[SKL]

Here's hoping this soon trickles down to the young people who have been convincing each other that a girl who likes shorter hair and jeans and doesn't wear make-up is actually a boy.  (Or "nonbinary," which seems to have become a place to shelve the issue for some kids.)

[KSera]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

As for medical treatment for physical transitioning, it is pretty non-existent in my area. Medical insurance doesn't pay one dime of it, and it is grossly expensive.

I very much believe that gender does not go hand in hand with genitalia. The brain is so much more complicated than that simple construct. Much of what we perceive about gender is cultural/societal and often informed by religious beliefs which are not rooted in actual biology. So I do very much believe that some souls are born with the wrong body, but I also think maybe this would be less damaging if our culture dropped its stupid preoccupation and obsession with trying to stuff people into predetermined boxes. 

To the first point, it was easily fully covered by insurance here. Many insurance companies consider “gender confirmation” treatments to be essential medical care and pay accordingly. I think this is problematic in the cases of treatments that introduce many new health problems that didn’t exist before the treatment, but that’s currently how it is. (And I don’t think “gender confirmation” as terminology has any scientific basis. This is treatment for gender dysphoria, not a confirmation of anything.) My own kid had a surgery letter within a couple months of seeing a therapist to get one and a hormone prescription was written by a doctor met only once, on the first appointment. Everything but deductible covered by insurance.

To the second point, if gender doesn’t go hand in hand with genitalia, that would seem to indicate there is no medical need to make genitals match gender. There seems to frequently be circular reasoning there. 
 

@Terabith’s posts resonate most strongly for me, as our experience is extremely similar with the issue not presenting in any way until after puberty, in a spectrum kid who mostly just didn’t want to have an adult body.

[Guest]

I’m so sorry, @Terabith. Thank you for sharing that perspective. I have wondered about those things for my sister, who is very stoical about her child’s past as a little girl. I have wondered if there have been any battles over, say, the photo of the child in a pink tutu hanging on the wall. And naming - I know how special my children’s names are to me. I can imagine it would be quite painful to never say those (to me) beautiful names again. 

[Terabith]

I also think the article in The Economist is.....maybe not misleading, but perhaps a bit confusing?  The issue with most trans research is that most of it was conducted prior to 2010, when in order to "be trans" people faced horrific social, emotional, and financial issues in order to transition.  I'm not saying it was a better time, because my friends who transitioned around college went through hell, and suicide was a real danger when transitioning was so difficult and social stigma was so horrific.  I think detransitioning was pretty uncommon then.

But one of my worries is that things have flat out just changed dramatically, and I'm not sure the research has kept up with the reality on the ground in high schools.  I don't want anyone persecuted, and I think people do have a right to go by the name and pronouns they choose.  I think social presentation should be honored.  But I'm just not convinced that research on physical transitioning is in line with the reality on the ground currently.  

Frankly, I think the issue goes beyond gender identity.  Tic disorders have increased among people assigned female at birth over 500% in the last two years.  They're being called "tik tok tics."  It feels very reminiscent of the dancing plagues in the Middle Ages.  Social contagion has real effects on medical issues.  

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

 

@Terabith’s posts resonate most strongly for me, as our experience is extremely similar with the issue not presenting in any way until after puberty, in a spectrum kid who mostly just didn’t want to have an adult body.

Don't quote, will delete:

Background - we have spectrumy traits in our family (my dad is clearly on the spectrum, my son was dx'ed last year, and I don't believe I would be diagnosed but maybe am adjacent) 

My son believed (and possibly still believes) he is trans -- puberty was crazy tough on him but he seems to be in a better place now.   He's more comfortable with his body now that he's been lugging it around awhile and the dysphoria seems to have subsided.  

When I was a teen I struggled with anxiety and depression (undiagnosed of course because anxiety wasn't a thing back then -- even though BOTH my parents now have been dxed with GAD).  I hated my body so much.  I dreamed of androgynous looking bodies, both as an ideal in a relationship but also to be myself -- I found them non threatening and safe.  I didn't even know what trans was but I knew what eating disorders were.  A simple solution to solve a body problem that included clearly defined steps, in the hopes that that simple solution would solve my problems.  I set weight goals, I set calorie limits, I set exercise schedules -- i can see the parallels between that and trans identity in teens.  

 

[SanDiegoMom]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I also think the article in The Economist is.....maybe not misleading, but perhaps a bit confusing?  The issue with most trans research is that most of it was conducted prior to 2010, when in order to "be trans" people faced horrific social, emotional, and financial issues in order to transition.  I'm not saying it was a better time, because my friends who transitioned around college went through hell, and suicide was a real danger when transitioning was so difficult and social stigma was so horrific.  I think detransitioning was pretty uncommon then.

But one of my worries is that things have flat out just changed dramatically, and I'm not sure the research has kept up with the reality on the ground in high schools.  I don't want anyone persecuted, and I think people do have a right to go by the name and pronouns they choose.  I think social presentation should be honored.  But I'm just not convinced that research on physical transitioning is in line with the reality on the ground currently.  

Frankly, I think the issue goes beyond gender identity.  Tic disorders have increased among people assigned female at birth over 500% in the last two years.  They're being called "tik tok tics."  It feels very reminiscent of the dancing plagues in the Middle Ages.  Social contagion has real effects on medical issues.  

Totally agree -- the cohort is drastically changed (previously it was mostly young kids or adult males, now it's mostly teen girls??) but the model they are following in medicine is based on assumptions made from previous cohorts. 

Social contagion is so prevalent.   This is just a very informal parent study from their own support group, but it shows that 96 percent of the trans identifying teens spent time on pro trans websites.  When I go searching online I get pages and pages of information that is supremely unhelpful.  My son says he felt "really bad about himself" and went online and discovered the reason is because he is trans.  Using reddit and online quizzes.  And watching hours and hours of transition timeline videos.   

https://pitt.substack.com/p/follow-the-science-surveys-show-recent

Edited November 9, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[KSera]

**Don’t quote**

8 hours ago, Terabith said:

Frankly, I think the issue goes beyond gender identity.  Tic disorders have increased among people assigned female at birth over 500% in the last two years.  They're being called "tik tok tics."  It feels very reminiscent of the dancing plagues in the Middle Ages.  Social contagion has real effects on medical issues.  

**don't quote**
I actually agree with everything you wrote in this post, but to this last part, this is so heavily on my mind. Both the tic disorder thing and the multiple identity social contagion happening online 

Edited November 10, 2021 by KSera
Deleted personal details

[Terabith]

Not about trans issues, but in terms of how I would have defined myself if I was a teen now...

When I was growing up, I did not have crushes really.  I mean, there might have been a crush on a kid in second grade?  But I had precocious puberty, so my hormones were all kinds of weird, and out of sync with my peers.  But by the time my peers were talking about crushes, I didn't have them.  Not on other kids.  Not on celebrities.  I never experienced sexual attraction.  And I grew up during the purity movement, so I thought, "Well, okay, this is a good thing; I'm keeping myself pure."  I didn't date in high school, but I thought a lot about the characteristics of the kind of person I wanted to marry.  I wanted to marry, not because I wanted sex, but because I wanted the social convention, the emotional and life security of an ongoing relationship, and because I wanted to be a mother.  I took classes on marriage and the family in college to figure out what kinds of persons made the best marriage partners.  And I started dating my now husband because I thought he would be a good husband.  But we didn't fool around sexually, because purity movement.  And when we got married, and the wedding night magic that was promised if you kept yourself pure didn't happen, I was seriously traumatized.  I went to psychologists and doctors, but nobody had any answers.  I remember looking up asexuality on freaking netscape in the late 90's, because I was like, "Is there something wrong with me?"  

If I was a teen today, I would have known I was asexual.  And frankly, the asexual community seem to be complete asshats who eat their own, and I probably would have given up my dreams of marriage and kids, because that's what the "identity community" says.  And my God, that would have been a tragedy, because even though I suck at s*x, we have a darn good marriage.  I love my husband; I love my kids, and I am so glad that I didn't know.  Though I do wish the whole purity thing hadn't been a thing, because I think that really did a massive number on a whole lot of us psychologically.  

[SanDiegoMom]

Just (((ksera)))  and (((Terabith))).   

[Terabith]

(((((((KSera))))))))

That would really, really suck.  I think that would be harder to deal with than the gender identity and the tics.  (For us, we're just ignoring the tics, and I'm praying that when they are no longer hanging out with people with Tourette's, that they will magically disappear again.)

[HS Mom in NC]

Borderline Personality Disorder is very much subject to ongoing identity issues. Considering surgery for someone like that would be a very bad idea until underlying issues are resolved.  Bipolar issues can sometimes affect identity issues, as can personalities that are prone to things like hyper-progressive views (the overly simplified idea that change is categorically good and traditionalism is categorically bad,) a very high need for conforming to the immediate group (in tweens/teens immersed in the trend of extreme trans support subcultures,) being prone to being nuance/complexity adverse (like a fundamentalist type attitude toward complex issues of any kind,) being prone to polarized views (reacting to one extreme with the opposite extreme,) being prone to rewrite reality/history to match current emotions (instead of using reality/history to inform emotions,) people prone to anxiety in general, and the like are just other forms of taking advantage of vulnerable people.

Here is an article about he current divide in the Swedish medical community about these kinds of issues and the complexity of mental health and cognitive factors that are involved now that trans identity in tween/teens has suddenly skyrocketed.  Sweden is by far one of the most, if not the most, liberal country when it comes to sexual identity issues and has been for a very long time, so they're not biased against it.  As I understand it, much of the trans surgery options and medical treatments were pioneered and developed there. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please.)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/22/ssweden-teenage-transgender-row-dysphoria-diagnoses-soar

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Terabith said:

And frankly, the asexual community seem to be complete asshats who eat their own

Lol, that’s a funny summary of it. I’ve seen only a little of it myself, but it sounds a confusing space and I’d be curious sometime to hear more just so I know more what my trans ace kid is immersed in as far as that goes. I definitely gather there can be a lot of confusion and dc has called the trans community in general toxic on many occasions, despite it being where they are most comfortable socially. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Lol, that’s a funny summary of it. I’ve seen only a little of it myself, but it sounds a confusing space and I’d be curious sometime to hear more just so I know more what my trans ace kid is immersed in as far as that goes. I definitely gather there can be a lot of confusion and dc has called the trans community in general toxic on many occasions, despite it being where they are most comfortable socially. 

I don't have a ton of experience; I just. joined a couple of asexuality facebook groups when I discovered that there were other people who were possibly like me, but holy crap.....not really.  Maybe it's partly a generational divide, but I'm like, "Dude, I was literally asking about this identity before the word even existed, so for you to tell me I don't belong because I have made different choices is seriously weird."  It really feels like identity politics and groups are mostly pretty toxic, whether online or in real life.  

[HS Mom in NC]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Not about trans issues, but in terms of how I would have defined myself if I was a teen now...I never experienced sexual attraction...I remember looking up asexuality on freaking netscape in the late 90's, because I was like, "Is there something wrong with me?" 

It just goes to show how lacking many churches are in teaching scripture.

Matthew 19:12 NKJV

For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

Jesus is talking about marriage and singleness in this context.  I don't think Jesus is forbidding marriage to natural born metaphorical eunuchs (AKA asexual people) here or anywhere else in scripture, but it's clear He is matter-of-factly acknowledging that asexual people exist and are born that way and He isn't taking moral issue with it. Anyone regularly attending a self-labeled "Bible believing" or "Bible centered church" should be taught that.

Edited November 9, 2021 by HS Mom in NC
Because I never catch it before posting.