New Covid medicine reduces hospitalizations and death by almost half among unvaccinated!

[mathnerd]

37 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I get reports. I go to these threads and I see lots of people just saying Christians. Without the word some in front of it. That’s all I was saying . If you are one of them, then yes it pertains to you. But I’m sure there are others out there. 
 

im just a Christian. I’m human. Will I make mistakes. Yes. I will not always know how to do what is right. Just like non-Christians. We all are just humans. We have different beliefs. We make different decisions. But in the end, it is our decision. 

There is the fact that White Evangelical Christians are the most resistant to the vaccine in the US. That is a data point and not stereotyping.

I am providing these two links that point to studies about vaccination uptake amongst various demographics (from June):

White evangelicals resist COVID-19 vaccine most among religious groups:

Some 24% of white evangelicals said in June they wouldn’t be vaccinated, down from 26% in March, according to a study from the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonpartisan group that studies the intersection of religion and public life.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/white-evangelicals-resist-covid-19-vaccine-most-among-religious-groups-11627489207

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-june-2021/

Demographic patterns in vaccine uptake and intentions are similar to those measured in previous surveys, with large majorities of older adults, those with serious health conditions, college graduates, and Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine. Black and Hispanic adults along with younger adults remain somewhat more likely than their counterparts to say they will “wait and see” before getting vaccinated, while Republicans, rural residents, and White Evangelical Christians continue to be disproportionately more likely to say they will definitely not get vaccinated.

 

 

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I am not spreading anything. Feel free to not view Dr. Campbell's video. As to those who are not taking the vaccine here's a breakdown:

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210810/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-90-million

Othering as you are doing is not helpful. There is no "team virus". Talking down to people or about people, I realize makes you feel superior, but it is in no way helpful in convincing those that are hesitant to be vaccinated. There's no mention of % of pompous know it alls taking the vaccine. I'm sure that all that know them know their vaccine status though.

I honestly haven't found anything to be all that helpful to convincing the hesitant in my personal world. What have you found to be effective?

Most of the hesitant in my world fall into 2 camps - white Evangelical Christians who seem to think the miracle Covid cure is being withheld by doctors, hospitals, media, and politicians alike and crunchy granola, anti-all-pharmaceuticals moms. Neither are moved by anything that I can see toward vaccination.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, historically accurate said:

I honestly haven't found anything to be all that helpful to convincing the hesitant in my personal world. What have you found to be effective?

Most of the hesitant in my world fall into 2 camps - white Evangelical Christians who seem to think the miracle Covid cure is being withheld by doctors, hospitals, media, and politicians alike and crunchy granola, anti-all-pharmaceuticals moms. Neither are moved by anything that I can see toward vaccination.

This is very much my experience though the evangelicals in this area take even a bit farther and claim the vaccine, masks, or both are "Mark of the beast", so they get pretty ugly about it. There is a lot of end times fixation in the local churches, and they kind of interpret everything that happens in the world as meaning the anti-christ has arrived. Very hard to reason with so I don't try.

[desertflower]

7 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

There is the fact that White Evangelical Christians are the most resistant to the vaccine in the US. That is a data point and not stereotyping.

I am providing these two links that point to studies about vaccination uptake amongst various demographics (from June):

White evangelicals resist COVID-19 vaccine most among religious groups:

Some 24% of white evangelicals said in June they wouldn’t be vaccinated, down from 26% in March, according to a study from the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonpartisan group that studies the intersection of religion and public life.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/white-evangelicals-resist-covid-19-vaccine-most-among-religious-groups-11627489207

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-june-2021/

Demographic patterns in vaccine uptake and intentions are similar to those measured in previous surveys, with large majorities of older adults, those with serious health conditions, college graduates, and Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine. Black and Hispanic adults along with younger adults remain somewhat more likely than their counterparts to say they will “wait and see” before getting vaccinated, while Republicans, rural residents, and White Evangelical Christians continue to be disproportionately more likely to say they will definitely not get vaccinated.

 

 

Apparently, I'm not making myself clear on the word "Christian".  😆

I'm sure you are right about the White Evangelical Christians.

My point was that I just see the word Christians blah blah blah  posted.  That's it sometimes. 

No matter.  I don't know how to explain myself in any other way. 

[WildflowerMom]

40 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

In my community black population is the least vaccinated followed by granola white parents. So locally persuading African American community to vaccinate has been the hardest. Persuading granola parents - impossible. Our county has done an excellent job in getting the vaccines out to the Hispanic community. I think some of this is very local. 
 

Glad to see effective drugs on the market. We need them, vaccinated or not. 

Where I live now, the African American community and a (I really don't know what to call them here... sorry.  They're not 'fundamental' Christians in the way I think of 'fundamental' Christians, they're more Christians that are Christians religiously some but much more so,  Christians politically, if that makes any sense whatsoever) certain type of Christian are the ones least vaxxed and most outspoken regarding vaxxes.  And they are being hit the hardest, of course.  Devastatingly so.   I mentioned in another thread of one elderly mother who buried her 2 black sons within one week of each other, both from covid.  They were very important, big members of this community.  It's a blow, for sure.   It's definitely not all Christians.  In fact, I'd say that probably at least 85% of my last church is vaxxed.   They still social distance & they just wave at each other during the 'greeting'.    

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, desertflower said:

Most of my friends are Christian and are vaccinated. 

It’s far less common here among believers.

1 hour ago, desertflower said:

[Fritz]

17 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

I honestly haven't found anything to be all that helpful to convincing the hesitant in my personal world. What have you found to be effective?

Most of the hesitant in my world fall into 2 camps - white Evangelical Christians who seem to think the miracle Covid cure is being withheld by doctors, hospitals, media, and politicians alike and crunchy granola, anti-all-pharmaceuticals moms. Neither are moved by anything that I can see toward vaccination.

I work in healthcare and have several coworkers who have been given exemptions. I have been able to talk to a couple of them lately that are now thinking about taking the vaccine. They may have actually taken it. I think they will likely keep it under their hats if they do. Anyway, I talked to them about the possibility of leaving their children or grandchildren in the event they contracted the Delta variant. I have also talked to them about taking up beds that others coming in for other issues could have used in the event they are hospitalized for Covid. I think for healthcare workers in particular the shift from it was 100% fine for them to work day in and day out during the months prior to the vaccines (heralded as heros even) to mandates forcing them to get vaccines to continue to do the job they had been doing for months was upsetting for many and a slap in the face. Some of them are coming around with the threat of Delta and the length of time the vaccines have been out. Othering them, assuming they are ignorant, or slamming their religion is not helpful. I should add that most of the ones I know are young, not Evangelical Christians, that are just fearful of taking the vaccines. Even though they did get religious exemptions most that I know are not particularly religious with a few exceptions.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Fritz

[historically accurate]

10 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I work in healthcare and have several coworkers who have been given exemptions. I have been able to talk to a couple of them lately that are now thinking about taking the vaccine. They may have actually taken it. I think they will likely keep it under their hats if they do. Anyway, I talked to them about the possibility of leaving their children or grandchildren in the event they contracted the Delta variant. I have also talked to them about taking up beds that others coming in for other issues could have used in the event they are hospitalized for Covid. I think for healthcare workers in particular the shift from it was 100% fine for them to work day in and day out during the months prior to the vaccines (heralded as heros even) to mandates forcing them to get vaccines to continue to do the job they had been doing for months was upsetting for many and a slap in the face. Some of them are coming around with the threat of Delta and the length of time the vaccines have been out. Othering them, assuming they are ignorant, or slamming their religion is not helpful. I should add that most of the ones I know are young, not Evangelical Christians, that are just fearful of taking the vaccines. Even though they did get religious exemptions most that I know are not particularly religious with a few exceptions.

Sorry I cannot respect that; it's flat out wrong in my book. That's simply a lie and one that hurts people around them if they get and transmit Covid. Especially as they are healthcare workers. 

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

To me, it looks like some people just need a reason to feel superior to some other group.

To me it looks like people are understandably angry that some people are engaging in reckless behavior that could kill our family members. 

[Fritz]

12 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Sorry I cannot respect that; it's flat out wrong in my book. That's simply a lie and one that hurts people around them if they get and transmit Covid. Especially as they are healthcare workers. 

 

I am sure they would differ with me and say that they are religious. I just have not found them to be what I would consider evangelical. They are required to use PPE just as they were prior to vaccines and are unlikely to transmid covid at work anyway. 

[mathnerd]

14 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I am sure they would differ with me and say that they are religious. I just have not found them to be what I would consider evangelical. They are required to use PPE just as they were prior to vaccines and are unlikely to transmid covid at work anyway. 

I wonder if they understand that prior to vaccines, there was the Alpha variant which was predominant and they wore PPE that protected those around from it, but, now there is a Delta variant which is vastly different and the vaccine is the first and most effective line of defense against it and that there is no comparison between those two scenarios.

But, perhaps they do know this well considering they work in the healthcare field and then knowingly choose to get an exemption signed by a religious leader (also wondering what kind of check these pastors do about the religious beliefs of people before signing off).

[historically accurate]

16 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I am sure they would differ with me and say that they are religious. I just have not found them to be what I would consider evangelical. They are required to use PPE just as they were prior to vaccines and are unlikely to transmid covid at work anyway. 

So they are religious? I am confused what your original point was. I asked if anything had helped in convincing people to become vaccinated. You basically said time and bad variants (coincidentally neither of which instill confidence in me that the USA will ever getting covid under control if those are the only two things you've seen - we don't want to give covid time to develop new & nastier variants), then you threw in the tidbit that your non-religious healthcare co-workers used a religious exemption, and when I said that was wrong, now you're saying they are religious.

Once again, I am confused, but I don't think we're going to come to anything here since you seem to want to defend their decision to delay/refuse vaccination and I'm not ever going to be for unvaccinated healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic.

It doesn't mean that I belittle them or taunt them or harass them, but I won't agree with their decision.

[KSera]

5 hours ago, klmama said:

I'm also coming from a place of frustration, as I see people on both sides of the issue losing compassion for others.  That concerns me greatly.  Some have stopped listening or engaging with people who think differently - caused by differences in opinion on this topic, but refusing to engage on any topic - and it seems some have genuinely stopped caring what happens to their fellow human beings who think differently.  

I am really frustrated as well. For me, most of my frustration stems from the fact that I DO care about my fellow human beings, so the fact that so many are being harmed by having fallen for misinformation and the politicization of a health issue that has nothing to do with politics is so distressing. A study I read today estimates 200,000 of the 700,000 Americans who have died are people who died after refusing vaccination and would have lived had they been vaccinated. This is a tragedy of massive scale, and people fighting against the vaccine don’t seem to blink an eye or care at all about that. Add to that the situation in hospitals right now, and the rationing of care, and it’s just horrific. I’m scared to death of anything happening to my healthy but elderly parents any time soon, because they could be unable to get even emergency health care due to local hospitals being maxed out by unvaccinated covid patients. In Alaska, they are rationing health care at this point, including having to keep people’s oxygen settings lower than they need because there’s not enough oxygen to go around. So, that part is beyond frustrating, because people’s decision not to vaccinate just because they don’t want to is having such a direct and devastating impact on others.

In Alaska’s Covid Crisis, Doctors Must Decide Who Lives and Who Dies

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

We have over 700,000 Americans dead and over 4.5 million dead around the globe.

The time has past when we need to worry about "the feelings" of those who are playing on Team Virus. They are fueling this pandemic and they fueling death.

This is the moral test of our age. 

Those on the wrong side are on the wrong side. Clearly and unequivocally. 

Bill

 

No matter how clearly on the clearly wrong side of history these people are, I still don’t know what you hope to accomplish by the tone and nature of your posts about it. It’s true that a lot of people have dug in their heels on going down with the ship and won’t budge, but not everyone has, and these kinds of posts are so counter productive. So many of these people have made their decisions based on tribalism anyway, and then they see this kind of thing, and they sure as heck don’t then want even consider anything the “other tribe” has to say at that point. I don’t get the idea from your posting style that you even care about people changing their minds and deciding to vaccinate themselves and their families after all. Which makes me super frustrated because that matters a lot. In that way, you contribute to the anti vax sentiment.

4 hours ago, desertflower said:

I think they are the loudest group.  I mean for the last 100,000 deaths does it say Nonvaccinated Christian on their death certificate?

Not being vaccinated as a Christian doesn't mean that we don't love one another.  It's not that black and white.  There are various reasons for not getting vaccinated. and if one can still stay on lockdown, then one doesn't have to get vaccinated. 

I can still "love thy neighbor" by staying on lockdown. I was hoping to do that and not get vaccinated for a little while longer.  But since my husband has to go into the office once a week, we got vaccinated. 

It's the crowd that goes around nonmasked spreading it.  One can still spread it being vaccinated and nonmasked. 

 

I agree that is the loudest group. But boy are they LOUD. And their loudness has carried a lot of influence and caused a lot of death and misery.

 

Unfortunately, the group that is not getting vaccinated is largely the group that is also anti mask and anti lockdown and anti doing anything else to mitigate the spread of Covid (well, except they usually say hand washing is okay). There’s a massive resistance to acknowledging that this pandemic is a big deal, as to do so would be to maybe have to admit to some of those measures being necessary to save lives. I still can’t imagine how people with these beliefs square the number of people who have died and the fact that hospitals are unable to cope under the strain.

3 hours ago, desertflower said:

Oh yes, I forgot about the embryonic cells. I don't know enough about it to comment on it.  Thanks for the info. 

I think that’s kind of the issue with a lot of people saying they have a religious objection due to embryonic cell research: they don’t actually know  what they’re objecting to, they just heard it as a talking point and they don’t hold consistent to that by not using any of the other many, many OTC medications that were tested on those same cell lines. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by KSera
typos

[Spy Car]

32 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

No matter how clearly on the clearly wrong side of history these people are, I still don’t know what you hope to accomplish by the tone and nature of your posts about it. It’s true that a lot of people have dug in their heels on going down with the ship and won’t budge, but not everyone has, and these kinds of posts are so counter productive. So many of these people have made their decisions based on tribalism anyway, and then they see this kind of thing, and they sure as heck don’t then want even consider anything the “other tribe” has to say at that point. I don’t get the idea from your posting style that you even care about people changing their minds and deciding to vaccinate themselves and their families after all. Which makes me super frustrated because that matters a lot. In that way, you contribute to the anti vax sentiment.

 

We entirely disagree.

I don't think coddling people who have no problem putting other people's lives at risk is a legitimate path forward. 

At some point one needs to take a firm stand. That time is long past.

Bill

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

We entirely disagree.

I don't think coddling people who have no problem putting other people's lives at risk is a legitimate path forward. 

At some point one needs to take a firm stand. That time is long past.

Bill

 

We do entirely disagree. I'm not coddling anyone, and I don't consider insults necessary to take a firm stand. I do know that there is plenty of research that makes clear that that approach is totally counter productive to changing anyone's mind, though. That's my biggest problem with it.

[Tanaqui]

Fritz (and others), this may shock you, but some of us are done banging our heads against a brick wall. You don't need to tsk tsk tsk about how we're not changing hearts and minds - I, for one, am done trying.

[KSera]

9 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Fritz (and others), this may shock you, but some of us are done banging our heads against a brick wall. You don't need to tsk tsk tsk about how we're not changing hearts and minds - I, for one, am done trying.

I totally get being done trying. It is massively frustrating and feels largely fruitless at this point. I think there's a difference between being done trying and being aggressively counter productive, though.

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, kbutton said:

I hear people near me in the anti-vax crowd saying they know people who've had reactions, but I rarely hear of someone in the pro-vaccine crowd have a problem. For example, people will say a friend died (but do not give details). I think some are legit, but not specific to the Covid vaccine--someone got GBS, but that's not Covid-specific. That person could've needed and received a pneumonia or tetanus shot that day instead of the Covid shot or been exposed to the flu on that day and gotten GBS from that instead. 

I've definitely seen pro-vax people on here and IRL with bad reactions. It's genuinely a vaccine with nasty side effects... I had a headache for more than 2 weeks from the second dose, and I'm about as pro-vaccine as you can get and have also gotten boosted. 

But that's because I figure COVID risk is way higher than vaccine risk. Not because I think the vaccine has no downsides. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've definitely seen pro-vax people on here and IRL with bad reactions. It's genuinely a vaccine with nasty side effects... I had a headache for more than 2 weeks from the second dose, and I'm about as pro-vaccine as you can get and have also gotten boosted. 

But that's because I figure COVID risk is way higher than vaccine risk. Not because I think the vaccine has no downsides. 

Clearly that happens. The initial trials tell us enough to know to expect some people to have some pretty unpleasant (but not nearly as bad as Covid) side effects. I've seen what kbutton alludes to though, with a much higher proportion of people who are highly covid vaccine anxious or reluctant seeming to then have a lot more side effects than people who had no such anxiety ahead of time. I've thought of it as being a similar effect to the placebo effect in double blind trials. It doesn't mean people don't actually have those side effects they are reporting, I think it's more that the body can be pretty wacky, and we don't fully understand the ways our brain might influence our body.

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, KSera said:

I totally get being done trying. It is massively frustrating and feels largely fruitless at this point. I think there's a difference between being done trying and being aggressively counter productive, though.

I don't know that it is counter productive - what are people going to do - get unvaccinated? They already are not vaccinated, don't want to be vaccinated, are not going to be vaccinated. Facts don't work. Calls for protecting others don't work. Offers of lottery winnings don't work. If they were going to be vaccinated, they would be. They can't get less vaccinated because I vented about them on social media. 

[Happy2BaMom]

38 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Fritz (and others), this may shock you, but some of us are done banging our heads against a brick wall. You don't need to tsk tsk tsk about how we're not changing hearts and minds - I, for one, am done trying.

Yep, I'm all out of f*cks to give.

Over the last month, my ICU nurse cousin & a friend-of-a-friend Infectious Disease doctor have been spit on, hissed at, sworn at (repeatedly), accused (repeatedly) of deliberately withholding treatment and/or actively killing patients, had multiple patient family members attempt to interfere with treatment plans and/or go over their heads, and just had a LOT of all-around hateful treatment.....with the vast majority of it committed by anti-vax patients/families who've ended up in the hospital. My cousin's hospital has now instituted panic buttons - one of MANY hospitals which have had to do the same thing.

I'm sure there are some vaccine-hesitant who are hurt by a lack of understanding and hand-holding. But there are MANY others who have no interest in listening to *anything* that the HCWs - the ones actually treating Covid patients - have to say. And they are equally impervious to any "outside" perspectives or evidence.

ETA: clarity

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Happy2BaMom

[Spy Car]

43 minutes ago, KSera said:

We do entirely disagree. I'm not coddling anyone, and I don't consider insults necessary to take a firm stand. I do know that there is plenty of research that makes clear that that approach is totally counter productive to changing anyone's mind, though. That's my biggest problem with it.

No insults. It is called truth telling.

We are at 700,000 dead in this country alone and this has become a pandemic driven by the unvaccinated.

We lost 2,977 on 911 and started a 20 years war (plus one) in response. We are losing more than that many people every two days.

I don't want to hear about what's "counter-productive," as coddling anti-makers/anti-vaxxers clearly isn't working.

It is a failed approach.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

23 minutes ago, KSera said:

Clearly that happens. The initial trials tell us enough to know to expect some people to have some pretty unpleasant (but not nearly as bad as Covid) side effects. I've seen what kbutton alludes to though, with a much higher proportion of people who are highly covid vaccine anxious or reluctant seeming to then have a lot more side effects than people who had no such anxiety ahead of time. I've thought of it as being a similar effect to the placebo effect in double blind trials. It doesn't mean people don't actually have those side effects they are reporting, I think it's more that the body can be pretty wacky, and we don't fully understand the ways our brain might influence our body.

Oh, for sure. I'm just saying that it's not true that only anti-vaxxers are having bad side effects. I agree that there's a placebo effect here and that I've seen many more negative reports from anti-vaxxers. 

[Spy Car]

33 minutes ago, KSera said:

I totally get being done trying. It is massively frustrating and feels largely fruitless at this point. I think there's a difference between being done trying and being aggressively counter productive, though.

Facing the reality of the situation is productive.

Coddling the unvaccinated is the most counterproductive move possible. 

Has not worked. Will never work.

Bill

 

[BeachGal]

IMO, motivational interviewing could probably sway some of the vaccine hesitant to get vaccinated. The CDC has written about using it as a technique when dealing with the vaccine hesitant. It’s not too difficult to learn and is often used to help addicts.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/engaging-patients.html

Although this is from Medium, the article explains well enough the gist of how it’s done and why.

https://medium.com/progressively-speaking/3-ways-you-wont-persuade-the-unvaccinated-c1c88ac4f8ad

I am more curious about the PhDs who are unwilling to get vaccinated. From what I’ve read, that group is the most adamant about not getting vaccinated.

 

 

 

[KSera]

36 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't know that it is counter productive - what are people going to do - get unvaccinated? They already are not vaccinated, don't want to be vaccinated, are not going to be vaccinated. Facts don't work. Calls for protecting others don't work. Offers of lottery winnings don't work. If they were going to be vaccinated, they would be. They can't get less vaccinated because I vented about them on social media. 

It's true it doesn't matter for most people, and I get needing to vent. I'm just still seeing stories from people who have more patience and kindness than most of us who are making a difference by not attacking, asking questions, being open, etc, etc. Most of us aren't up to that at this point; I get it (I'm not really up to that, either, as I'm angry at this point). But there is still a sizable (less vocal) group of people still on the fence, and they are here reading. I do still think super abrasive, insulting language does more harm than good to that group that is still on the fence. Again, I get the frustration and wanting to vent, and I agree it makes no sense for people to be on the fence at this point. But here we are.

23 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

IMO, motivational interviewing could probably sway some of the vaccine hesitant to get vaccinated. The CDC has written about using it as a technique when dealing with the vaccine hesitant. It’s not too difficult to learn and is often used to help addicts.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/engaging-patients.html

Although this is from Medium, the article explains well enough the gist of how it’s done and why.

https://medium.com/progressively-speaking/3-ways-you-wont-persuade-the-unvaccinated-c1c88ac4f8ad

I am more curious about the PhDs who are unwilling to get vaccinated. From what I’ve read, that group is the most adamant about not getting vaccinated.

 

I've read the same about motivational interviewing.

I can't recall the details of that one study that found that about PhDs, but my recollection was that it was pretty suspicious, as several of the other statistics in it were demonstrably not true (was it the same one that said Native Americans were the least vaccinated, when the actual vaccine data at the time showed the exact opposite was true?). It was a Facebook survey, if I'm not mistaken, and I'm guessing the group of PhDs who answer Facebook series is differs signicantly from PhDs as a whole.

[Fritz]

57 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Fritz (and others), this may shock you, but some of us are done banging our heads against a brick wall. You don't need to tsk tsk tsk about how we're not changing hearts and minds - I, for one, am done trying.

Oh ok, I'll quit trying to talk to my coworkers about taking the vax cause you, who unless I miss my guess got to sit this one out at home, are done trying🙄.

Last year while many of you had the luxury of sitting on your sofas, ordering your groceries etc. to be delivered or picked up, these same healthcare workers were going to work each day potentially risking their lives and their families lives. They were coming home stripping outside their homes for fear of what they could be bringing to their families. They did not have the luxury of not working during the pandemic. Remember when this virus was new, we knew nothing about how infectious it was, and PPE was limited. You were perfectly happy for these healthcare workers to risk their health and the health of their families each day so they would be there to take care of your family members.

Now that you and your families have had the option to be vaccinated you are demanding that these same people get vaccinated so they can be there to take care of your now vaccinated family members. 

I would like for them all to be vaccinated as well, but I do not think beating up on them is the answer. I have said how I how seen some change among some of my coworkers. I think talking to them in a reasonable way when asked my opinion is a more effective way of changing their minds than beating up on them. I believe they should be allowed to make their own choice just as most of you were. That's just my opinion. Please, Bill, tell us once again about "Team Virus" and your superior intellect.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Last year while many of you had the luxury of sitting on your sofas, ordering your groceries etc. to be delivered or picked up, these same healthcare workers were going to work each day potentially risking their lives and their families lives. They were coming home stripping outside their homes for fear of what they could be bringing to their families. They did not have the luxury of not working during the pandemic. Remember when this virus was new, we knew nothing about how infectious it was, and PPE was limited. You were perfectly happy for these healthcare workers to risk their health and the health of their families each day so they would be there to take care of your family members.

There's more than one healthcare worker on this forum... I'm not sure why you're talking like every single person in here has been in hiding 😕

Edited October 5, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Spy Car]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

It's true it doesn't matter for most people, and I get needing to vent. I'm just still seeing stories from people who have more patience and kindness than most of us who are making a difference by not attacking, asking questions, being open, etc, etc. Most of us aren't up to that at this point; I get it (I'm not really up to that, either, as I'm angry at this point). But there is still a sizable (less vocal) group of people still on the fence, and they are here reading. I do still think super abrasive, insulting language does more harm than good to that group that is still on the fence. Again, I get the frustration and wanting to vent, and I agree it makes no sense for people to be on the fence at this point. But here we are.

 

People who are "on the fence" and here reading are better off hearing in no uncertain terms that this has largely become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and that Delta is very highly contagious, and that failing to get vaccinated puts their lives and the lives of others at risk.

Saying anything less than the truth is an act of unkindness.

That is not an "insult," it is highly necessary truth-telling.

Coddling people could get these people or their loved ones killed. That is not kindless. That is enabling.

Bill

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spy Car

[Fritz]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

There's more than one healthcare worker on this forum... I'm not sure why you're talking like every single person in here has been in hiding 😕

I said many not all.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I said many not all.

Doctors and nurses are begging people to get vaccinated to break the cycle of hospitalizations and death.

You are entirely off base.

Bill

[BeachGal]

I am hoping we will see a lot more promising anti-viral treatments soon. I think we will and that would be fantastic.

There is one drug I’m following closely that can deliver nitric oxide multiple ways that could be very promising in preventing infection and treating both Covid and long haulers. It is just about to start phase 1 trials.

[Tanaqui]

Listen, Fritz, you do whatever makes you happy. And I'll do the same.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Fritz said:

Now that you and your families have had the option to be vaccinated you are demanding that these same people get vaccinated so they can be there to take care of your now vaccinated family members. 

I would like for them all to be vaccinated as well, but I do not think beating up on them is the answer. I have said how I how seen some change among some of my coworkers. I think talking to them in a reasonable way when asked my opinion is a more effective way of changing their minds than beating up on them. I believe they should be allowed to make their own choice just as most of you were. That's just my opinion. Please, Bill, tell us once again about "Team Virus" and your superior intellect.

What I am the very most angry about, is all the people in positions of influence who are the ones who have made these healthcare workers scared to get what could very well be the shot that saves their lives.  Countless of these HCW could have and would have survived had they not fallen victim to the fear and misinformation.   From something you said earlier, it sounds like you’re in one of the places in the country where people are ashamed if other people find out they got vaccinated. That’s exactly the kind of thing that is the root of this whole problem. People aren’t making this decision based on reasonable information. The irony is that the mandate that some are fighting will absolutely end up saving some of the same lives of people who fought against it but finally got it anyway.  It’s absolutely not being hateful toward people to desperately want them to be vaccinated. An interesting thing to me from this conversation is that I have gotten an anti-vax vibe from you in the past, so it’s interesting to hear you saying you are actually pro vax compared to your peers.  I feel like there’s a sub group of people I run into that I would kind of described as “reluctantly pro vaccine.”

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

People who are "on the fence" and here reading are better off hearing in no uncertain terms that this has largely become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and that Delta is very highly contagious, and that failing to get vaccinated puts their lives and the lives of others at risk.

Saying anything less than the truth is an act of unkindness.

That is not an "insult," it is highly necessary truth-telling.

Coddling people could get these people or their loved ones killed. That is not kindless. That is enabling.

The insults I’m referring to aren’t any of what you say above. I have said all of that here and more and always speak bluntly about the danger of Covid. I imagine a large portion of the unvaccinated people on this forum may think I’m far more abrasive than I am. I’m talking about the insults.

Edited October 5, 2021 by KSera
Significant typo

[wathe]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

 

Last year while many of you had the luxury of sitting on your sofas, ordering your groceries etc. to be delivered or picked up, these same healthcare workers were going to work each day potentially risking their lives and their families lives. They were coming home stripping outside their homes for fear of what they could be bringing to their families. They did not have the luxury of not working during the pandemic. Remember when this virus was new, we knew nothing about how infectious it was, and PPE was limited. You were perfectly happy for these healthcare workers to risk their health and the health of their families each day so they would be there to take care of your family members.

 

Regarding HCW private attitudes toward anti-vaxxers, my experience is the polar opposite.

My emergency dept colleagues and I have kept our dept running 24/7/365.  We were all first in line when the vax came out.  Now we are all just.so.done with the unvaxxed who keep coming through our ED sick with covid and exposing us again and again and again and again.  Our workplace exposure comes from unvaccinated people.  That's a slap in the face. If people would just get vaxxed already, I wouldn't still be being exposed every shift.   The compassion well for the unvaxxed is pretty dry around here.

[BlsdMama]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

People who are "on the fence" and here reading are better off hearing in no uncertain terms that this has largely become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and that Delta is very highly contagious, and that failing to get vaccinated puts their lives and the lives of others at risk.

 

But, and here’s the rub, because the vaccine is largely effective and because the pandemic has become a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”, the unvaccinated to a large degree, are putting those at risk who have chosen to be at risk. 

Covid is an incredible threat, obviously. There are, for some, valid reasons not to get the vax. There needs to be the ability to make one’s own medical decisions. I know you and I disagree on this fundamentally basic point. And it is entirely possible I’m projecting my need to make my own medical decisions, on a far larger scale, onto the Covid and vaccine scenarios. 
 

This is where, politically, this battle is - one side is tallying the human life toll and the price paid is incredibly high. The opposing issue is the right to determine what medical procedures can be done without permission and the scope is beyond Covid. It is an oversimplification though to say, “We can inject a body with substance X, under forced choice,” and shrug as though no liberties have been lost when that line is crossed. That decision should rest in my hands and be between myself and my doctor. 
 

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Yep, I'm all out of f*cks to give.

 

Same.

I guess I sort of admire those of you who can keep trying to persuade, but also I think of that definition of insanity usually wrongly attributed to Einstein ("doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"). I feel certain that at this point no amount of persuasion is going to make any difference. At this point I don't believe there are substantial numbers of vaccine hesitant, but rather that most of the unvaccinated now are actively vaccine resistant. At least that's what I see in my own life. They don't seem to care about facts or Christian values or anything else. You can't help people who not only won't help themselves but also seem perfectly fine with perhaps actively harming others. You just can't. (Obviously here I'm referring to the anti-masking/Covid is a hoax crowd, not the vaccine hesitant but masking/being responsible people. I don't know any of those unicorns.)

 

2 hours ago, wathe said:

Regarding HCW private attitudes toward anti-vaxxers, my experience is the polar opposite.

My emergency dept colleagues and I have kept our dept running 24/7/365.  We were all first in line when the vax came out.  Now we are all just.so.done with the unvaxxed who keep coming through our ED sick with covid and exposing us again and again and again and again.  Our workplace exposure comes from unvaccinated people.  That's a slap in the face. If people would just get vaxxed already, I wouldn't still be being exposed every shift.   The compassion well for the unvaxxed is pretty dry around here.

I have three nurses in my life, one of whom works in ICU, and I'm hearing the exact same thing from each of them. I saw my PCP yesterday and she said the same. My impression is that no one is happier to see unvaccinated health care workers fired than other health care workers. Thankfully the numbers of health care workers around here who have been fired for not being vaccinated has been very tiny. Last week a large hospital/health chain reported firing 175 workers, which amounts to 0.005 percent of their work force. Hardly a significant number, and I suspect a goodly percentage of those were administration/support rather than in direct health care. I doubt the percentage is significantly different in other places, so I wonder how much this supposed concern over HCW quitting is a red herring.

[KeriJ]

7 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Doctors and nurses are begging people to get vaccinated to break the cycle of hospitalizations and death.

You are entirely off base.

Bill

No. Not off base. I know personally numerous healthcare workers exactly as Fritz described.  Some relatives,  some friends.  Far more than I would have imagined. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

This is where, politically, this battle is - one side is tallying the human life toll and the price paid is incredibly high. The opposing issue is the right to determine what medical procedures can be done without permission and the scope is beyond Covid. It is an oversimplification though to say, “We can inject a body with substance X, under forced choice,” and shrug as though no liberties have been lost when that line is crossed. That decision should rest in my hands and be between myself and my doctor. 

It is your choice. No one is forcibly injecting anyone, and there are medical exemptions for mandates, last I checked. 

You have the right not to get the vaccine. But if I were an employer, I wouldn't want an unvaccinated person working in any kind of indoor environment for me right now. That would be my right. There's no contradiction. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[BlsdMama]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It is your choice. No one is forcibly injecting anyone, and there are medical exemptions for mandates, last I checked. 

You have the right not to get the vaccine. But if I were an employer, I wouldn't want an unvaccinated person working in any kind of indoor environment for me right now. That would be my right. There's no contradiction. 

Choice vs Coercion - let’s not mistake one for the other.

 My husband works from home. At no point does he set foot inside the company any longer. Now, granted, he freely chose to get his vaccine immediately several months ago, but if he hadn’t, he’d be facing termination within the next six months. The “choice” to lose the ability to feed a family and losing medical care is not a choice. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BlsdMama said:

Choice vs Coercion - let’s not mistake one for the other.

 My husband works from home. At no point does he set foot inside the company any longer. Now, granted, he freely chose to get his vaccine immediately several months ago, but if he hadn’t, he’d be facing termination within the next six months. The “choice” to lose the ability to feed a family and losing medical care is not a choice. 

Yes, it is a choice. There are many things that are NOT in any way legally compelled that would lose the ability to feed a family. For example, not showing up to work. You're not forced to go to work. You will lose the ability to feed your family if you don't do it, though. 

[catz]

2 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Choice vs Coercion - let’s not mistake one for the other.

 My husband works from home. At no point does he set foot inside the company any longer. Now, granted, he freely chose to get his vaccine immediately several months ago, but if he hadn’t, he’d be facing termination within the next six months. The “choice” to lose the ability to feed a family and losing medical care is not a choice. 

It is though.  And why shouldn’t employers have the same free choice to set a safety standard  in a work environment ?   My husband’s employer is the same.  There have been many months warning and medical and religious exemptions apply.  My husband has a close coworker with a medical exemption.  She has severe severe allergies and has been told to wait my her specialist given her history.   The rest of her family is vaccinated.  
 

Working for a particular employer is not a right.  
 

My teen is doing several vaccinations required activities this fall too. May have shut out a few families.  Oh well, their choice.  

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 

This is where, politically, this battle is - one side is tallying the human life toll and the price paid is incredibly high. The opposing issue is the right to determine what medical procedures can be done without permission and the scope is beyond Covid. It is an oversimplification though to say, “We can inject a body with substance X, under forced choice,” and shrug as though no liberties have been lost when that line is crossed. That decision should rest in my hands and be between myself and my doctor. 
 

We are angry that people even NEED coercion. We are angry they are not getting vaccinated just because they want to stop the spread of the disease and the burden on the hospitals. 

[Fritz]

9 hours ago, KSera said:

What I am the very most angry about, is all the people in positions of influence who are the ones who have made these healthcare workers scared to get what could very well be the shot that saves their lives.  Countless of these HCW could have and would have survived had they not fallen victim to the fear and misinformation.   From something you said earlier, it sounds like you’re in one of the places in the country where people are ashamed if other people find out they got vaccinated. That’s exactly the kind of thing that is the root of this whole problem. People aren’t making this decision based on reasonable information. The irony is that the mandate that some are fighting will absolutely end up saving some of the same lives of people who fought against it but finally got it anyway.  It’s absolutely not being hateful toward people to desperately want them to be vaccinated. An interesting thing to me from this conversation is that I have gotten an anti-vax vibe from you in the past, so it’s interesting to hear you saying you are actually pro vax compared to your peers.  I feel like there’s a sub group of people I run into that I would kind of described as “reluctantly pro vaccine.”

The insults I’m referring to aren’t any of what you say above. I have said all of that here and more and always speak bluntly about the danger of Covid. I imagine a large portion of the unvaccinated people on this forum may think I’m far more abrasive than I am. I’m talking about the insults.

 Nope I am not antivax. I am antimandate. There is no shame here in taking the vaccine. These coworkers have already been given exemptions. I think they would likely not share with our employer that they had taken the vax if indeed they decide to be vaccinated. Additionally I hope they will not share that information with me. Many of these HCW have already had covid before the vaccines were available. 

[Fritz]

5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Same.

I guess I sort of admire those of you who can keep trying to persuade, but also I think of that definition of insanity usually wrongly attributed to Einstein ("doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"). I feel certain that at this point no amount of persuasion is going to make any difference. At this point I don't believe there are substantial numbers of vaccine hesitant, but rather that most of the unvaccinated now are actively vaccine resistant. At least that's what I see in my own life. They don't seem to care about facts or Christian values or anything else. You can't help people who not only won't help themselves but also seem perfectly fine with perhaps actively harming others. You just can't. (Obviously here I'm referring to the anti-masking/Covid is a hoax crowd, not the vaccine hesitant but masking/being responsible people. I don't know any of those unicorns.)

 

I have three nurses in my life, one of whom works in ICU, and I'm hearing the exact same thing from each of them. I saw my PCP yesterday and she said the same. My impression is that no one is happier to see unvaccinated health care workers fired than other health care workers. Thankfully the numbers of health care workers around here who have been fired for not being vaccinated has been very tiny. Last week a large hospital/health chain reported firing 175 workers, which amounts to 0.005 percent of their work force. Hardly a significant number, and I suspect a goodly percentage of those were administration/support rather than in direct health care. I doubt the percentage is significantly different in other places, so I wonder how much this supposed concern over HCW quitting is a red herring.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/12/health/ny-hospital-pausing-baby-deliveries-covid-19-resignations/index.html

Apparently not a red herring in this case.

My coworkers are largely vaccine hesitant not actively vaccine resistant. 

Also, I would be curious to know how many, or what percentage were given exemptions, especially to those that work the floor. I'll bet those numbers and circumstances are not being released. Am I wrong?

Edited October 5, 2021 by Fritz

[whitestavern]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Choice vs Coercion - let’s not mistake one for the other.

 My husband works from home. At no point does he set foot inside the company any longer. Now, granted, he freely chose to get his vaccine immediately several months ago, but if he hadn’t, he’d be facing termination within the next six months. The “choice” to lose the ability to feed a family and losing medical care is not a choice. 

Forcing a WFH employee to get vaxxed has nothing to do with keeping the workplace safe. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, whitestavern said:

Forcing a WFH employee to get vaxxed has nothing to do with keeping the workplace safe. 

Sure. It's pointless. Of course, I assume it's kind of hard for a large employer to figure out which employees are where, which is why things wind up erring on the side of being too restrictive. It's easier with a small employer. Bigger entities always ARE less flexible. 

[hshibley]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

I have three nurses in my life, one of whom works in ICU, and I'm hearing the exact same thing from each of them. I saw my PCP yesterday and she said the same. My impression is that no one is happier to see unvaccinated health care workers fired than other health care workers. Thankfully the numbers of health care workers around here who have been fired for not being vaccinated has been very tiny. Last week a large hospital/health chain reported firing 175 workers, which amounts to 0.005 percent of their work force. Hardly a significant number, and I suspect a goodly percentage of those were administration/support rather than in direct health care. I doubt the percentage is significantly different in other places, so I wonder how much this supposed concern over HCW quitting is a red herring.

Same here.  Health care systems with vaccine mandates have fired those who won’t vaccinate. They fired less than 1% of their workforce. There are not mass groups of HCW who are unvaccinated and are willing to quit over it. This supposed concern is nothing but pot stirring. 

[BlsdMama]

2 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Forcing a WFH employee to get vaxxed has nothing to do with keeping the workplace safe. 

Exactly. 

[BlsdMama]

29 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

We are angry that people even NEED coercion. We are angry they are not getting vaccinated just because they want to stop the spread of the disease and the burden on the hospitals. 

No one, in a country that prides itself on maintaining individual liberties, *needs* coercion. It’sa bit like an abuse saying the victim had it coming if she had just done what he wanted her to do. 
 

I had a family member who smacked his wife. It was, in his mind, her responsibility (previously agreed) to cook a meal and keep the house clean. In his reasoning, she could have avoided the punishment (vomit) had she just done what was right in his mind. I realize this reasoning (comparing his abuse to this governmental overstep) is offensive to you.... as is the idea that it’s okay to present medical private decisions as a “choice” when it is not... It wasn’t for her and it isn’t for people who either need to be vaccinated against their will or lose their jobs. I’m not anti vaccine. I have never been anti vaccine. But I have always selectively vaccinated my kids, choosing an alternative schedule and delaying others until they make their own adult decision. That was my choice as a parent and respecting their rights as well. I am anti mandate, but on a far deeper level, I’m against government making decisions that require a big step over medical boundaries... for example, forced sterilization and mandatory vaccines. 
 

(On the family member, she is happily married to someone else and he got serious substance abuse help.)

Edited October 5, 2021 by BlsdMama