The “vaccination divide” in the US

[regentrude]

Just now, ktgrok said:

You know, it may become like asking about STD testing before having sex. Awkward, but important. 

Hey, that is actually a great analogy.

[KeriJ]

There are a large number who are opposed because it violates their conscience due to use of fetal cells in testing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

41 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Lots of reasons I'd wear a mask too, to a party indoors of mixed vaccinated and unvaccinated. 

So would I.  For one thing, vaccination is just one mitigation tool - a very important one, for sure, but still to be used in conjunction with masking, limited numbers of people and social distancing.  A party is going to mean more people and less social distancing.  And for that reason I probably wouldn't go at all. But if I did go, I would definitely rely on both my mask and my vaccination status. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, KeriJ said:

There are a large number who are opposed because it violates their conscience due to use of fetal cells in testing. 

On the one hand, I understand having hard ethical boundaries. On the other hand, no actual fetuses are being harmed to test the drugs, and by not getting vaccinated many will die of Covid. I don't understand how that calculation is in reality pro-life at all. Not vaccinating = more death. 

[Pawz4me]

Re education level as a factor --

I certainly don't rule that out overall, but from what I'm seeing in my small world I'd argue that it has more to do with intelligence level/intellectual curiosity level than with formal education. In my own circle I know people who are well educated (minimum bachelor's degrees) who are both vaccinated and not vaccinated. But (and I'm trying my best to say this tactfully) . . even among people who have the same level of formal education there seems to be a wide range of IQ levels, of critical thinking skills, of intellectual curiosity and other factors that go into good decision making. Now maybe that's my own feeling of inadequacy speaking, as my own formal education level capped off with a two year CC degree. But I'd give very strong odds that my IQ and critical thinking skills, and certainly my level of intellectual curiosity, are significantly higher than a few people in my circle who have advanced degrees. They are very much "go with team red" people and spend no time at all keeping themselves informed of the current data. More than one time I've started to say something along the lines of "But the studies coming from Israel indicate that . . . " And I get the cross eyed, deer-in-the-headlights look from them. They neither know nor care about any data or where it's coming from. If it doesn't fit their preconceived religious and political world view then it's irrelevant to them.

10 minutes ago, KeriJ said:

There are a large number who are opposed because it violates their conscience due to use of fetal cells in testing. 

I haven't looked into that deeply, but my cursory understanding is that any fetal cells that may have been used would have been donated tissue. So objecting to a potentially life saving vaccine on that grounds seems very misguided to me. I assume that in order to stay consistent the same people would refuse a life saving organ transplant from a donor who had been murdered?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

So would I.  For one thing, vaccination is just one mitigation tool - a very important one, for sure, but still to be used in conjunction with masking, limited numbers of people and social distancing.  A party is going to mean more people and less social distancing.  And for that reason I probably wouldn't go at all. But if I did go, I would definitely rely on both my mask and my vaccination status. 

Yeah, honestly, to a party just for the sake of a party, I wouldn't go at all.  I went to the memorial service because my friend was grieving her dh and I wanted to be there for her.  But WHY would I go to an indoor party just for funsies?  I'd just decline.

We had an indoor party for my local extended family for summer birthdays, but I knew 100% of the people attending were fully vaxed (all family).  I've gone to a few other in-person meetings this summer, but all have been outside by general consensus.  My boat crew is finally rowing again, and I'm good being without a mask there, as (a) it's mostly outside (have to get boat in/out of boathouse), and (b) everyone was actually enthusiastic to share that they were vaxed.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I haven't looked into that deeply, but my cursory understanding is that any fetal cells that may have been used would have been donated tissue. 

No, they are not.

Quote

Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from elective abortions in the 1970s and 1980s. Those individual cells from the 1970s and 1980s have since multiplied into many new cells over the past four or five decades, creating fetal cell lines. Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No, they are not.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

I think the important thing is that people know that no new babies are being aborted for these cell lines, and refusing the vaccine won't save a single baby from abortion. Getting vaccinated will save lives. 

[SKL]

30 minutes ago, KSera said:

To the bolded,  I don’t understand why you say for the over 50s who don’t want to get vaxed,  you don’t blame them being worried about the risks (even though they are in the group most likely to be harmed by Covid and where the risk benefit analysis is overwhelmingly clear),  but then you say you don’t understand why African-Americans aren’t getting vaccinated and that their arguments don’t fly with you. Why are those two things different for you?  I’m at the point now with the possibly unpopular view that I think the evidence and number of vaccines given has piled up to this point that even those with understandable historical suspicion don’t have a sensible argument under that reason anymore. But, I don’t think the over 50s do either.

Not all over-50s, but specific much-older individuals who have serious health concerns and/or had severe reactions to previous vaccination.  People who feel like the well-known side effects of the vax could be the final straw for them.  (If you read my post, it does not say uptake is lower in all over-50s groups, but it ticks downwards for the oldest groups.  In my state, uptake peaks at ages 70-74 and then ticks slightly downward.)

The risk-benefit of vaccine must be weighed on a case-by-case basis IMO.  Like it or not, there have been many people who died shortly after the vax.  One can argue "they were probably going to die soon anyway," but even if that's true, the vax did not help them.  If health-compromised folks would rather take the risk of possibly being exposed to Covid, even given that most people around them have immunity, then I can understand that.

Edited July 23, 2021 by SKL

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No, they are not.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

But I do believe it's those initial elective abortions that people who object are referring to, isn't it?

And that original tissue--the mother would have had to agreed to donate it, just like any other organ or tissue donation, wouldn't she?

[Guest]

I just want to reiterate: it is fine with me if people prefer to wear a mask, whatever they are doing. I wear a mask in most indoor situations with groups of people unknown to me (like the cafe I just visited to get food to go), even though I don’t see other customers wearing them. Staff usually does but not customers. But I feel like, it’s not hurting anything, so might as well. 
 

The thing that felt weird to me about my party-masker was the inquiry at the door. He was standing there, mask ready to go on, but first wanted to know if “everyone” was vaccinated. Well, I don’t have any idea. I can make a stab at it and I don’t think a single person there fits the “Tie-ranny!” typecasting, so probably most were vaxxed. 
 

For myself personally, I still hope I don’t get covid/Delta/lambda, but I’m not as concerned as I was when there was no vaccine. I like my odds. To me that was the whole darn point of vaccine rollout. 

[TCB]

1 hour ago, I talk to the trees said:

The factors which seem to me to be driving vaccine refusal in my area are politics, religion, and low levels of education. These factors are so entangled with one another that it is difficult to tease out the primary cause of vaccine resistance.  As far as social clusters go, I think that at this point, even those who could be swayed by a logical and clear presentation of safety data or risk analysis will continue to refuse to be vaccinated because they don’t want to be perceived as somehow betraying their political or religious family/friends/colleagues.

There is a county near me that is offering to vaccinate people discretely and privately so that they can do so without any of their friends and family knowing. As far as I know they haven’t said how much uptake they’ve had of this offer. I’m really glad they are offering it but it boggles the mind that this is a necessary service!

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

There is a county near me that is offering to vaccinate people discretely and privately so that they can do so without any of their friends and family knowing. As far as I know they haven’t said how much uptake they’ve had of this offer. I’m really glad they are offering it but it boggles the mind that this is a necessary service!

My friends and family only know about my vax status if I tell them.  So don't understand this, unless one lives in a really small, close-knit, anti-vax community.

[SoCal_Bear]

I'm responding to the OP. I haven't had a chance to read all the way though. 

The reason why it's difficult to comprehend is generally people like to to look at things from a binary framework. Understanding what is going made a lot more sense to me after I read this from George Packer about Four Americas. I really want to read his book The Last Best Hope eventually.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/george-packer-four-americas/619012/

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by calbear

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, TCB said:

There is a county near me that is offering to vaccinate people discretely and privately so that they can do so without any of their friends and family knowing. As far as I know they haven’t said how much uptake they’ve had of this offer. I’m really glad they are offering it but it boggles the mind that this is a necessary service!

I know someone who has been vaccinated but doesn't want anyone in their family to know. It seems to be fear of ridicule and maybe even fear of family members' outright anger at the "betrayal." Again, it comes back to the team mentality.

It does boggle the mind.

[Danae]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

The thing that felt weird to me about my party-masker was the inquiry at the door. He was standing there, mask ready to go on, but first wanted to know if “everyone” was vaccinated. Well, I don’t have any idea. I can make a stab at it and I don’t think a single person there fits the “Tie-ranny!” typecasting, so probably most were vaxxed. 

That actually makes perfect sense to me.  He goes unmasked if he knows everyone present is vaccinated and masks otherwise.  That’s what my husband and I did until our kids were vaccinated, and what we’ll probably go back to soon if numbers in our area continue to rise.

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

My friends and family only know about my vax status if I tell them.  So don't understand this, unless one lives in a really small, close-knit, anti-vax community.

I think the offer was to avoid them getting seen waiting for or getting the vaccine.

[Pen]

I wonder about the psychology that makes this a “divide” and to what degree that view itself causes divisiveness and growing rift. 
 

I cannot recall past situations in my life where a medical decision caused an “us” versus “them” antagonism like this. 
 

 

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

I wonder about the psychology that makes this a “divide” and to what degree that view itself causes divisiveness and growing rift. 
I cannot recall past situations in my life where a medical decision caused an “us” versus “them” antagonism like this. 

I cannot recall a past situation where we had a global pandemic and where one person's medical decision had such a grave impact on others' lives.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

I wonder about the psychology that makes this a “divide” and to what degree that view itself causes divisiveness and growing rift. 
 

I cannot recall past situations in my life where a medical decision caused an “us” versus “them” antagonism like this. 
 

 

 

Smoking is probably the closest thing. 

Smokers and non smokers freely complained about each other, regulations, etc. 

[Halftime Hope]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

As to the bolded: since masking is primarily protecting the other person, how can that be left to each person's decision? "I reserve the right to cough lethal germs on you because it's my decision"? WTH? 
 

Sadly, this is pretty much every workplace ever.  I'm really hoping COVID will make a difference in this part of US culture: if you're sick, stay the heck home. If you're an employer, for God's sake, give you employees some sick days. 

[I talk to the trees]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, smoking is a good example and smokers have lost this battle. Where can you smoke now? Your right to smoke wherever you want is limited by my right to not be around second hand smoke. That's recognized in every (?) state now. I'm never around smokers anymore which is such a blessing. 

If you think smokers have lost the battle, come visit VA! Or rather, don't. Instead, I think I want to come visit you! 😉

[whitestavern]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I know many here disagree, but I am a big believer in people getting to make their own decision on getting this vaccine. I am not bothered by the people around me not being vaccinated as long as we respect each other's decisions. Same with masking.

I agree and would not want to see mandates, but I do wish those who are unvaccinated would continue to mask.

[J-rap]

I have friends and relatives across the spectrum on political, religious, etc. views.  The vast majority are happily vaccinated, although a small percentage of the vaccinated group is doing it very grudgingly.  The ones doing it happily range from conservative Republican Christians to Democrat non-religious.  The ones doing it grudgingly are all white Republicans, with only mild religious affiliations and think Covid is really no big deal.  They're only doing it so they can travel, etc.   Both of these groups consist of both college-educated and not college-educated.

The ones who are not getting it are also across the spectrum.  Probably a majority are strong conservative Christians (although they're not all political) who lean anywhere from mildly to greatly toward conspiracy theories and are into Biblical prophecy.  Some are very smart but not college-educated, some are professionals -- even doctors.  They also tend to think their rights and faith are being challenged.  Others are hippies living off the land with all natural everything, no religious affiliation, maybe two years of college and very independent and smart and probably vote Democrat.  Others are educated professional types, lean Republican, not religiously affiliated, and are very careful about what they put into their bodies.  Those people plan to be vaccinated once it's FDA approved.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by J-rap

[whitestavern]

1 hour ago, TCB said:

There is a county near me that is offering to vaccinate people discretely and privately so that they can do so without any of their friends and family knowing. As far as I know they haven’t said how much uptake they’ve had of this offer. I’m really glad they are offering it but it boggles the mind that this is a necessary service!

Aren't they all private and discrete? How would ones friends and family possible know if they got vaccinated unless they were told? 

[TCB]

1 minute ago, whitestavern said:

Aren't they all private and discrete? How would ones friends and family possible know if they got vaccinated unless they were told? 

If you show up at a vaccination clinic around here you’re bound to see people you know. Same is true for Walmart lol

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Aren't they all private and discrete? How would ones friends and family possible know if they got vaccinated unless they were told? 

Small town, rural area?
My town is 20k, but when I go to the doctor, I meet several acquaintances in the building and sometimes in the same waiting room. I run into people I know every time I go to the store. At the dentist. Out to eat. Impossible to not be seen.

Edited July 23, 2021 by regentrude

[Muttichen1]

It really is a risk/benefit analysis. Not everyone is afraid of covid.

I'm not vaccinated and have no plans to get the vaccine. I'm well educated (graduate degree), intellectually curious, and politically conservative. I read the New York Times every day and listen to NPR. I also read conservative news outlets and I feel they give me a me balanced perspective. For example, I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18.

Most of my friends are like me, college educated, intellectual, and conservative. Those at high risk from covid happily got the vaccine as soon as it was available. Those who are at lower risk mostly have not gotten it, and no one is vaccinating kids under 16 or so.

What might make us different is that we have been living pretty much normally for over a year. We happily locked down in late March 2020 to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. When it was clear that wasn't happening, we loosened up. We've been having people over for meals in large groups since at least early May of last year. We went on vacation last summer with family from all over the country. I taught in person all year without masks.

While covid has not gone through my church, homeschool group, etc., I know MANY people who have had it. I don't know anyone young and healthy who had anything worse than a fever that hung on awhile. Most people had symptoms so mild they never would have thought of getting tested if someone in their family hadn't had an exposure. I know young, healthy people do sometimes get seriously ill, but that is rare. Driving to Walmart is more dangerous to me than covid.

Yes, the Delta variant is more contagious, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that it's more serious.

I've made the risk calculation and I'd rather take my chances on covid than go get a shot that is likely to make me sick and that I'll probably need a booster for. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Danae said:

That actually makes perfect sense to me.  He goes unmasked if he knows everyone present is vaccinated and masks otherwise.  That’s what my husband and I did until our kids were vaccinated, and what we’ll probably go back to soon if numbers in our area continue to rise.

But how am I going to know if fifty guests are vaccinated? I’m not going to ask everyone as they rsvp. 
 

PS my autocorrect changed RSVP to “taco”. Lol! 

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

But how am I going to know if fifty guests are vaccinated? I’m not going to ask everyone as they rsvp. 
 

PS my autocorrect changed RSVP to “taco”. Lol! 

A lot of hosts are only hosting vaccinated guests, so maybe s/he thought you knew. RSVP, BYOT! Bring Your Own Tacos!

[Guest]

Thank you, @Muttichen1, for your reply. If you’re willing, give me a region. I find this fascinating and wish I could spend all day examining why people make the choices they do. 

[whitestavern]

 

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Small town, rural area?
My town is 20k, but when I go to the doctor, I meet several acquaintances in the building and sometimes in the same waiting room. I run into people I know every time I go to the store. At the dentist. Out to eat. Impossible to not be seen.

8 minutes ago, TCB said:

If you show up at a vaccination clinic around here you’re bound to see people you know. Same is true for Walmart lol

Interesting. I live in a town with <4000, but we don't even have doctors; you'd have to go to a surrounding town (all larger) for that. I rarely see anyone that lives in my town when I'm out and about, at supermarkets, doctors, malls, etc. I also didn't realize there were still areas doing big vaccine clinics. 

[Muttichen1]

I think we actually live very close to each other. Mid-Atlantic. I'm in a purplish area of a very blue state.

[TCB]

7 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

It really is a risk/benefit analysis. Not everyone is afraid of covid.

I'm not vaccinated and have no plans to get the vaccine. I'm well educated (graduate degree), intellectually curious, and politically conservative. I read the New York Times every day and listen to NPR. I also read conservative news outlets and I feel they give me a me balanced perspective. For example, I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18.

Most of my friends are like me, college educated, intellectual, and conservative. Those at high risk from covid happily got the vaccine as soon as it was available. Those who are at lower risk mostly have not gotten it, and no one is vaccinating kids under 16 or so.

What might make us different is that we have been living pretty much normally for over a year. We happily locked down in late March 2020 to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. When it was clear that wasn't happening, we loosened up. We've been having people over for meals in large groups since at least early May of last year. We went on vacation last summer with family from all over the country. I taught in person all year without masks.

While covid has not gone through my church, homeschool group, etc., I know MANY people who have had it. I don't know anyone young and healthy who had anything worse than a fever that hung on awhile. Most people had symptoms so mild they never would have thought of getting tested if someone in their family hadn't had an exposure. I know young, healthy people do sometimes get seriously ill, but that is rare. Driving to Walmart is more dangerous to me than covid.

Yes, the Delta variant is more contagious, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that it's more serious.

I've made the risk calculation and I'd rather take my chances on covid than go get a shot that is likely to make me sick and that I'll probably need a booster for. 

Most young people don’t get very sick, but you’re also very fortunate if you don’t know any who have. Don’t know how old you are but I’ve seen some normal health people in there 30s really sick recently, and someone I work with had their 4 year old daughter get sick from an unvaccinated childcare worker and spend a week struggling with very high fevers, needing to use inhalers, and spending one night coughing for 90 minutes straight, which pretty much freaked them out and they are in the medical field. This is all taking place in delta territory. You are very fortunate not to have known anyone who has experienced this type of thing.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

I think we actually live very close to each other. Mid-Atlantic. I'm in a purplish area of a very blue state.

Very interesting. You could be down the street from me right now, lol!

[Halftime Hope]

55 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Not just workplaces, but schools. Kids are punished for staying home sick. Then there's the childcare issues. And even if you have sick days, there's usually a culture encouraging working while you're sick. I was always very careful about staying home sick because I never wanted to look like I was taking advantage. I've worked many times while sick. 

So how do you perceive that now? Will your practice change? 

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I do agree some people are over-cautious, but perhaps they have their reasons.  I feel badly for people who can't relax no matter what, but that is probably not really about Covid.

I had no trouble relaxing before Covid. Don’t worry about the flu. This scares the hell out of me. And yeah, I am conservative Republican Christian, but anti-Trump. My husband is a doctor and there is reason to be scared. Sorry I cannot be blase about so many people dying.  

[Muttichen1]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Maybe you didn't read it in the mainstream media because it's untrue? 

Misinformation About WHO's COVID-19 Vaccine Guidance for Children

and 

The WHO Didn't Reverse Its Position on Kids and COVID Vaccines

 

From the WHO website (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice)

WHO SHOULD GET VACCINATED

The COVID-19 vaccines are safe for most people 18 years and older

 

Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults, so unless they are part of a group at higher risk of severe COVID-19, it is less urgent to vaccinate them than older people, those with chronic health conditions and health workers.   

 

More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Muttichen1 said:

It really is a risk/benefit analysis. Not everyone is afraid of covid.

I'm not vaccinated and have no plans to get the vaccine. I'm well educated (graduate degree), intellectually curious, and politically conservative. I read the New York Times every day and listen to NPR. I also read conservative news outlets and I feel they give me a me balanced perspective. For example, I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18.

Most of my friends are like me, college educated, intellectual, and conservative. Those at high risk from covid happily got the vaccine as soon as it was available. Those who are at lower risk mostly have not gotten it, and no one is vaccinating kids under 16 or so.

What might make us different is that we have been living pretty much normally for over a year. We happily locked down in late March 2020 to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. When it was clear that wasn't happening, we loosened up. We've been having people over for meals in large groups since at least early May of last year. We went on vacation last summer with family from all over the country. I taught in person all year without masks.

While covid has not gone through my church, homeschool group, etc., I know MANY people who have had it. I don't know anyone young and healthy who had anything worse than a fever that hung on awhile. Most people had symptoms so mild they never would have thought of getting tested if someone in their family hadn't had an exposure. I know young, healthy people do sometimes get seriously ill, but that is rare. Driving to Walmart is more dangerous to me than covid.

Yes, the Delta variant is more contagious, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence that it's more serious.

I've made the risk calculation and I'd rather take my chances on covid than go get a shot that is likely to make me sick and that I'll probably need a booster for. 

So....all those people in the ICU and dead, and the ICU nurses saying this is not like any other illness....they are all made up and pretend? Cause you don't know anyone personally who experienced hospitalization or death?

[Muttichen1]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

So....all those people in the ICU and dead, and the ICU nurses saying this is not like any other illness....they are all made up and pretend? Cause you don't know anyone personally who experienced hospitalization or death?

I didn't say no one has gotten sick and died. Of course they have. But the chance of a young, healthy person getting seriously ill is very low. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Muttichen1

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

That isn't what you wrote. You wrote. "I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18."

These are not the same. You said "the WHO does not recommend.." and the link says "More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19." Not at all the same. 

 

Actually I think "does not recommend" is accurate.  However, "WHO does not recommend X" is not equal to "WHO recommends that you don't do X."

[Muttichen1]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

That isn't what you wrote. You wrote. "I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18."

These are not the same. You said "the WHO does not recommend.." and the link says "More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19." Not at all the same. 

 

They say they recommend the vaccine for those 18 and up and they can't say whether or not children younger should be vaccinated until there is more information.

Did you even read the fact check your linked??? The only thing it disputes is that the WHO changed its position. The WHO has never recommended the vaccine for kids.

[Muttichen1]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Serious question - how do you know this? What do you know about the risks? 

I watch the data. My dh has a PhD in math.

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

I didn't say no one has gotten sick and died. Of course they have. But the chance of a young, healthy person getting seriously ill is very low. 

And how about the large number of americans that are not healthy, not young, etc? Isn't the best way to protect their lives to have as many people as possible be vaccinated, mask, etc?

It's not just the healthy people that matter. 

[Muttichen1]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

Yes, I read it. 

"Can say whether or not children younger should be vaccinated..." does not mean the same thing as "the WHO does not recommend." 

You do see that they're not the same thing, right? 

Look, I don't want to argue with you. Quill was trying to understand the vaccination divide and I wanted to give the perspective of a person who has thoughtfully decided against vaccinating.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Muttichen1

[Muttichen1]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

And how about the large number of americans that are not healthy, not young, etc? Isn't the best way to protect their lives to have as many people as possible be vaccinated, mask, etc?

It's not just the healthy people that matter. 

If they are vaccinated, they are protected against serious illness. There always will be people who are medically fragile and we'll do what we can to protect them. I'm not convinced in this case that me getting a vaccine is helpful. I will stay home if sick, etc.

Again, I know we disagrees. I just wanted to give a perspective from the other side.

[Muttichen1]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Don't want to argue either but I'm not sure how "thoughtful" your decision was when you misunderstand what the WHO advised given that you appeared to have relied on it. 

Also the WHO recommends that you get vaccinated and you didn't. So why listen to the WHO about children but not adults? 

 

Oh my goodness. I don't rely on the WHO. I randomly picked that as an example of something I read in conservative media and then backed it up with a primary source that contradicted your "fact check."

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

If they are vaccinated, they are protected against serious illness. There always will be people who are medically fragile and we'll do what we can to protect them. I'm not convinced in this case that me getting a vaccine is helpful. I will stay home if sick, etc.

Again, I know we disagrees. I just wanted to give a perspective from the other side.

But you said you were acting this way before the vaccine. And kids still can't be vaccinated - including "unhealthy" kids, of which I know several. Etc. A truly thoughtful approach includes thinking of them. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Muttichen1 said:

I did not read in the mainstream media that the WHO does not recommend the vaccine for kids under 18.

FWIW, I did read that, but it's also important to have context in mind when reading WHO recommendations. WHO is recommending for the entire world, often with a particular focus on the developing world, and there is an incredible shortage of vaccines in most of the world. It does not make sense to vaccinate under 18s in places that have only vaccinated 1% of their population due to lack of vaccine.

[SKL]

Just now, KSera said:

FWIW, I did read that, but it's also important to have context in mind when reading WHO recommendations. WHO is recommending for the entire world, often with a particular focus on the developing world, and there is an incredible shortage of vaccines in most of the world. It does not make sense to vaccinate under 18s in places that have only vaccinated 1% of their population due to lack of vaccine.

True, but the language quoted from WHO specifically says the WHO is waiting for more info, not that the WHO is concerned about vax availability.

I don't know how old that WHO quote is though.