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The “vaccination divide” in the US


Ginevra
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25 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

The point is, any discussion of risks of the vaccine is shut down as misinformation. There is no way I'd get a vaccine knowing that. I want to give informed consent and that means openly discussing the risks and benefits, not living in a bubble where any negatives are dismissed as right wing conspiracy theories. You're not going to convince anyone this way.

 

 

I don’t think it is accurate that any discussion of risks gets shut down. There have certainly been discussions concerning children, pregnant women, those with medical conditions, previous allergic reactions, etc. The ultimate main advice seems to be to consult your own personal trusted medical professional to discuss the risks and benefits if you have questions or concerns about your specific situation. Personally, I honestly don’t understand looking to WHO for my personal medical decisions or those of minor children.

I also think it is absolutely necessary to recognize that there is a great deal of misinformation and conspiracy theories around both covid and the vaccines. Both things can be true at the same time. And again, the best way to combat that is for people to consult a trusted medical professional to get accurate information and discuss personal risk and benefits, rather than rely on social media or YouTube, etc.

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So the last of the comorbidity group is getting vaccinated this week and then we are on to the whole population. One million vaccines came into the country last week (which is 20% of the population of NZ). Here is an example of the type of news we are getting here on our biggest news website (40% of kiwis read it). I thought it was kind of sweet compared to the news that America gets.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/the-whole-truth-covid-19-vaccine/#/1202401514/why-a-sore-arm-after-vaccination-can-be-a-good-thing

It is a 2 minute video "why a sore arm after vaccination can be a good thing" and it has Māori subtitles. It is currently the lead story on the website. 

It is a part of a series of articles and videos that are being put out by this news site (Stuff). Interestingly, it is being funded by Google News Initiative not the government. Stuff is actually independently owned by the journalist staff who work there. It is not a public company. Here is Stuff's summary of this series:

--------

"Those most at-risk of serious illness or death from Covid-19 are frequently targeted with misinformation.

Produced by Stuff in partnership with Māori Television and the Pacific Media Network, The Whole Truth: Covid-19 Vaccination counters the falsehoods.

It explains the topics prone to misinformation, and seeks to inform rather than inflame. It does not advocate for policy positions, apart from transparency and accuracy in public debate.

On this page, and across a range of social media and print publications, The Whole Truth about the Covid-19 vaccine is published through a series of videos, graphics and words.

The project received funding from the Google News Initiative. This money is used to pay animators, presenters, and an expert advisory panel. The journalism is independent and created under Stuff's code of ethics."

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/the-whole-truth-covid-19-vaccine/#/

Edited by lewelma
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I'm finding it just keeps getting sadder and sadder to watch this play out, and I worry how bad it's going to get. Every day, there are more and more stories with family members of those who have died (or the patients themselves, if they survived) expressing their deep regret at having followed the anti vaccination rhetoric and not having been vaccinated, and urging others not to make the same mistake. Yet, it seems like that doesn't have a huge impact on anyone other than the family involved, so by the time people regret their choice, it's too late 😢. And right now, that's playing out with ~10,000 deaths a month just in the US. 99+% of which are totally preventable. It's just terribly sad to see this and feel like people are so set in their view that they're not willing to change their mind now that the impact is very clear. I did see vaccination rates are picking up a bit in those areas being hard hit right now, so maybe it's not entirely true it doesn't impact anyone unless it's their family. But even waiting until it hits one's own area before deciding to prevent it means it may be too late at that point. It's just a helpless feeling to watch it knowing it could be prevented.

Eta: I just saw yet another one of these stories. Mom of 8 nearly dies from COVID, regrets not getting vaccinated This woman is 43.

Edited by KSera
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The WHO is not making general recommendations for those 12+ and feels it is, on a whole, less urgent to vaccinate them than the older population, health care workers and those with health conditions, after all they are looking at the global view and there are so many people without access to any vaccine at this time.  They do state the following:

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

Edited by melmichigan
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2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

How do we know it's preventing infections when we are not testing asymptomatic or symptomatic cases in the vaccinated?

You can get tested here if you are vaccinated. Maybe it varies by state or even county or city? 

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12 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

It is negative. Just a cold - go home and sleep it off. It was last week or so, so I am still stuffy, but I feel better.

🤦‍♀️ I misread. When you said “just tested,” I took it a little too literally 😂. Glad you’re fine!

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

Eta: I just saw yet another one of these stories. Mom of 8 nearly dies from COVID, regrets not getting vaccinated This woman is 43.

Quoting from that article:

Quote

Starling said she and her husband both agreed they had likely already had COVID and didn’t know they had it.

I think there's going to be a lot of this kind of thinking in people who had some kind of illness in the last year but didn't bother to test. 

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Just now, kbutton said:

Quoting from that article:

I think there's going to be a lot of this kind of thinking in people who had some kind of illness in the last year but didn't bother to test. 

This is why I wish the powers that be had created a free "antibody card" that was good for say, 6 months or whatever, as an alternative to vaccination. So those that said, "I don't need a vaccine, I think I already had it." could prove it...or learn they were wrong and maybe reconsider vaccination. 

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3 hours ago, whitestavern said:

How do we know it's preventing infections when we are not testing asymptomatic or symptomatic cases in the vaccinated?

I’ve been tested four times since being vaccinated.  No symptoms, but on a college campus that did random survey testing all year and two “everybody tests” weeks whether you were vaccinated or not.

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On 7/26/2021 at 5:56 AM, Muttichen1 said:

Then show me where the WHO recommends the vaccine for kids under 18, because all I said is that they don't. You all can quibble all day that not saying kids shouldn't get it is different than not saying kids should get it. All I said is that they recommend the vaccine for people over 18. Show me where they say anything different -- from the WHO website, not from a fact checker trying to spin it.

LOL.

Here are a few items from the WHO article you linked (and they boldeded for emphasis):

There are several safe and effective vaccines that prevent people from getting seriously ill or dying from COVID-19. [That's true]

Take whatever vaccine is made available to you first, even if you have already had COVID-19. It is important to be vaccinated as soon as possible once it’s your turn and not wait. [Excellent advice!]

They also said (without bodled emphasis): 

"Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults, so unless they are part of a group at higher risk of severe COVID-19, it is less urgent to vaccinate them than older people, those with chronic health conditions and health workers.

Having a "less urgent" need to be vaccinated is not a recommendation against vaccination, as you have dishonestly attempted to spin this. It is more "urgent" as a general condition to vaccinate 90 year olds, over 80 year olds, and 80 year olds over 70 year olds, and 70 year olds over 60 year olds, and so on, all else being equal.

I think this analysis by the WHO has neglected the risk of long Covid on young people, especially should it prove to be a life-long illness.

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
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2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I was just tested for Covid. I'm vaccinated. I had a fever; I called my doctor who said, "Let's get you tested." 

Well the CDC itself states they are not tracking positive cases unless there is hospitalization or death. If this information is available anywhere, please share a link. 

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5 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Well the CDC itself states they are not tracking positive cases unless there is hospitalization or death. If this information is available anywhere, please share a link. 

They may not be publishing breakthrough cases as a stat (I honestly have no idea, I follow my county & region's numbers but nothing really beyond that), but that doesn't mean they don't test anyone.

I was confused of your intent with your first post where you said they weren't testing anyone since I took that to mean literally they weren't testing for Covid for anyone who had been vaccinated. Obviously they are since I am one of them (I was negative), but I do have a friend who had a breakthrough case. 

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2 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

They may not be publishing breakthrough cases as a stat (I honestly have no idea, I follow my county & region's numbers but nothing really beyond that), but that doesn't mean they don't test anyone.

I was confused of your intent with your first post where you said they weren't testing anyone since I took that to mean literally they weren't testing for Covid for anyone who had been vaccinated. Obviously they are since I am one of them (I was negative), but I do have a friend who had a breakthrough case. 

You're right - should have used tracking vs testing. Though I do know a couple of sick vaccinated people IRL whose doctors didn't recommend testing. I wish they were tracking this information though. 

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

Well the CDC itself states they are not tracking positive cases unless there is hospitalization or death. If this information is available anywhere, please share a link. 

I don’t know if it’s on a state dashboard, but I’ve read articles in my state reporting the number of breakthrough cases and deaths.

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/local/coronavirus/2021/07/01/oregon-covid-19-update-1-790-breakthrough-cases-identified/7821185002/

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8 minutes ago, Frances said:

I don’t know if it’s on a state dashboard, but I’ve read articles in my state reporting the number of breakthrough cases and deaths.

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/local/coronavirus/2021/07/01/oregon-covid-19-update-1-790-breakthrough-cases-identified/7821185002/

Someone linked Virginia's state dashboard recently, and they have a really nice breakdown of vaccinated vs unvaccinated. So, it seems it's state by state, but just not being collected by the CDC. Which I think is a mistake (and I don't think it's generally a popular move amongst virus scientists and doctors).

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11 hours ago, Plum said:

ght, there is absolutely no one in the world that both sides will listen to so lets keep Fauci. 

I don’t know or care about keeping Fauci or not, but yes, there is no one on the planet that both sides will listen too. And if such a person existed it would take 1 news cycle for that person to be excoriated  the minute he or she started saying hey, ya’ll get the darn vaccine already.  Mr. Rogers, Dolly Parton, Kermit the Frog.  As soon as they said Covid is real and the vaccine is good they would become Fauci 2.0 in a heartbeat.  It’s not the messenger, it’s the message.  Those against the vaccine do not want to hear that it’s safe and effective.  They want to hear their own opinion, that it causes infertility and kills people, and isn’t needed bc Covid is a hoax, come out of the mouth of a National public health official.  

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6 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I don’t know or care about keeping Fauci or not, but yes, there is no one on the planet that both sides will listen too. And if such a person existed it would take 1 news cycle for that person to be excoriated  the minute he or she started saying hey, ya’ll get the darn vaccine already.  Mr. Rogers, Dolly Parton, Kermit the Frog.  As soon as they said Covid is real and the vaccine is good they would become Fauci 2.0 in a heartbeat.  It’s not the messenger, it’s the message.  Those against the vaccine do not want to hear that it’s safe and effective.  They want to hear their own opinion, that it causes infertility and kills people, and isn’t needed bc Covid is a hoax, come out of the mouth of a National public health official.  

QFT!

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5 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Do you know what the population of adults vaccinated there is? 

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On 7/23/2021 at 5:59 PM, lewelma said:

Very interesting post, but I will say that I was left scratching my head in quite a few places until I remembered that the red/blue aligns to politics in the wrong way in America!

from wikipedia "political colour"

In the United States, the colour blue has been associated with the liberal Democratic Party since around the 2000 presidential election, when most of the major television networks used the same color scheme for the parties.[19][20] This makes the United States an exception to the general rule that blue represents conservative parties; the major conservative party in the United States, the Republican Party, uses red.

I remember when they first started doing this  & the election results not making any sense to me because of it. I still have to routinely think about it - like every year when November rolls around I need a refresher course! 

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Not everyone who is unvaccinated thinks those things. There’s a multitude of reasons people aren’t getting vaccinated from access to health reasons to waiting for approval and none of those have to do with politics.
 

I know it’s easier to think everyone who hasn’t gotten it yet is selfish or ignorant but there’s a good portion that have given this considerable thought and are facing ridicule and shame from their fellow citizens. There are people who haven’t gotten the vaccine yet and still don’t go out and always wear a mask. They do exist. I’m sorry if you haven’t met any but they do. 

I think pretty much everyone doesn’t include those for whom the vaccine is not recommended due to health reasons when discussing the unvaccinated. Likewise for those who haven’t yet been able to yet access it despite trying.

I don’t think people lump all vaccinated together and I don’t doubt there are unvaccinated people who never go out and always mask. But on this very thread there are unvaccinated people who say they aren’t afraid of covid and have worked unmasked for a long time and regularly host large gatherings in their homes for the last year and travelled with others outside their pod. They either don’t get or don’t care that vaccinating and masking is not just about them. So selfish and/or ignorant? I’m sure they would say they’ve given it considerable thought and done their research.
 

And just last weekend at the local Farmer’s Market there was a tent full of anti-vaxers spreading their misinformation and conspiracy theories, just as a poster regularly does here. I’m also sure they would all say they’ve given it considerable thought and done lots of research.
 

So yes, there are all sorts of reasons people aren’t vaccinated. Health reasons, access, lack of approval, ignorance, selfishness, misinformation, conspiracy theories, etc. It would be interesting if we could somehow quantify the percentage in each group, but I don’t think that is possible. 

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8 hours ago, KSera said:

Do you know what the population of adults vaccinated there is? 

44% of eligible individuals. However, I don't know how they count college students. Memphis has multiple schools that will be coming back in the next month.  

 

Positivity is 1.26 and rising, so while the idea that we have 76% with antibodies is nice, obviously it's not at a level to be terribly protective yet. It's also almost certainly skewed to middle/upper income bands, just due to who can afford diagnostic bloodwork. There are a lot of people in Memphis who have no health care other than the ER department at the hospital for urgent stuff and the health department for childhood vaccinations. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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I am finding it hard to understand the rationale that most people who get covid don’t get very sick as a reason not to get the vaccine. It isn’t just about the severity of the illness. Nor is it just about protecting vulnerable people who are unable to vaccinate. It’s also about preventing mutations. Anyone who gets covid has the potential to contribute to the mutation of the virus by acting as an incubator for the formations of variants. 
I don’t hear people acknowledging that reality when 

The variants act differently, as we are learning with the Delta variant. Delta spreads faster and the existing vaccines aren’t as effective against it. So, when someone choses not to get vaccinated, they are also choosing to play a part in prolonging the pandemic and contributing to mutations. A person may decide that they are willing to take the personal risk for the current variations, yet they may not be willing to take a risk for a omicron variant, should it come to pass, for example,  because Omicron might be so much more deadly. But, it is because they didn’t get vaccinated back when we were only concerned about Delta that Omicron even comes into existence. 

So, for those of you that are choosing not to vax based upon an evaluation of personal risk factors - Does your evaluation take into account the fact that you are an incubator for COVID variants? How to you assess that? 
Also, where is the tipping point in your risk benefit analysis? What variables are you taking into consideration and what is the threshold at which time you will change your risk benefit analysis to be weighted in the opposite direction? 
 

Also, when assessing risk factors does the health and well being of your community have a place in the equation? How much weight do you give it? What are the thresholds that would cause a change in your calculation?

The emphasis on economic considerations when it comes to public health recommendations is stunning.
The risk side is given far more weight than the benefit side. The economic risk is far more important than the benefit of preventing illness and saving lives. But, in the long run, economic stability is best served by having a healthy population that works and spends money. 

Last year all the kids stayed home from school to reduce spread & the resulting risks to others. Now those groups have access to a vaccine and many are refusing to take a jab or two in order to protect others, including the kids heading back to school. 
 

It all seems like people are 1) only thinking short term  and 2) are limiting who and what is taken into consideration when they engage in risk/benefit analysis.  

Covid is a long game. It is a team sport. Vaccination is the key to winning. If people don’t play by the rules, so to speak, how do they expect to win the game? 

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7 hours ago, Plum said:

Not everyone who is unvaccinated thinks those things. There’s a multitude of reasons people aren’t getting vaccinated from access to health reasons to waiting for approval and none of those have to do with politics.
 

I know it’s easier to think everyone who hasn’t gotten it yet is selfish or ignorant but there’s a good portion that have given this considerable thought and are facing ridicule and shame from their fellow citizens. There are people who haven’t gotten the vaccine yet and still don’t go out and always wear a mask. They do exist. I’m sorry if you haven’t met any but they do. 

In the part where you quoted me I specifically said “those who are against the vaccine” not “all unvaccinated”.  If someone is waiting for full approval, or waiting for a good time to get off work, or waiting until they deliver a baby, I wouldn’t consider those people to be against the vaccine, they are just not yet vaccinated.  Those who are rabidly against the vaccine are a different group.   I do know some of the “not yet vaccinated” who are still masking and being safe.  But they pale in comparison to the number of people that I know who are rabidly against the vaccine, are done with masks, think the whole thing was a hoax anyway and are back to life as usual.   Pretending those people don’t exists doesn’t make any sense.   

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I can think of 3 people I know who aren’t yet vaccinated but either plan to get it, or aren’t against it.  
1 had Covid and doesn’t think he needs the vaccine  He’s waiting for more definitive info showing one way or the other.   Doesn’t mask, always thought masks were stupid.

 
1 is not comfortable getting the vaccine while pregnant but plans to get it once the baby is born.  Still masks. 


1 was waiting for her doctors to say she was healthy enough to get it.  She actually just got the ok and got her first shot.  Stopped wearing a mask prior to getting vaccinated.  
 

I can think of 10 people easily that have no plan to get vaccinated, think it’s “drinking the kool aid”, dangerous, “only for sheeple”, etc. etc.  All of them only masked when required, never did the distancing, and have all stopped masking entirely.  
 

So I know 1 unvaccinated person who is still masking and at least 12 who are unvaccinated and are out there unmasked without a care.  

Edited by HeartString
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2 hours ago, TechWife said:

I am finding it hard to understand the rationale that most people who get covid don’t get very sick as a reason not to get the vaccine. It isn’t just about the severity of the illness. Nor is it just about protecting vulnerable people who are unable to vaccinate. It’s also about preventing mutations. Anyone who gets covid has the potential to contribute to the mutation of the virus by acting as an incubator for the formations of variants. 
I don’t hear people acknowledging that reality when 

The variants act differently, as we are learning with the Delta variant. Delta spreads faster and the existing vaccines aren’t as effective against it. So, when someone choses not to get vaccinated, they are also choosing to play a part in prolonging the pandemic and contributing to mutations. A person may decide that they are willing to take the personal risk for the current variations, yet they may not be willing to take a risk for a omicron variant, should it come to pass, for example,  because Omicron might be so much more deadly. But, it is because they didn’t get vaccinated back when we were only concerned about Delta that Omicron even comes into existence. 

So, for those of you that are choosing not to vax based upon an evaluation of personal risk factors - Does your evaluation take into account the fact that you are an incubator for COVID variants? How to you assess that? 
Also, where is the tipping point in your risk benefit analysis? What variables are you taking into consideration and what is the threshold at which time you will change your risk benefit analysis to be weighted in the opposite direction? 
 

Also, when assessing risk factors does the health and well being of your community have a place in the equation? How much weight do you give it? What are the thresholds that would cause a change in your calculation?

The emphasis on economic considerations when it comes to public health recommendations is stunning.
The risk side is given far more weight than the benefit side. The economic risk is far more important than the benefit of preventing illness and saving lives. But, in the long run, economic stability is best served by having a healthy population that works and spends money. 

Last year all the kids stayed home from school to reduce spread & the resulting risks to others. Now those groups have access to a vaccine and many are refusing to take a jab or two in order to protect others, including the kids heading back to school. 
 

It all seems like people are 1) only thinking short term  and 2) are limiting who and what is taken into consideration when they engage in risk/benefit analysis.  

Covid is a long game. It is a team sport. Vaccination is the key to winning. If people don’t play by the rules, so to speak, how do they expect to win the game? 

Unfortunately, those that have been vaccinated can still get Covid-19 and are able to be "incubators for Covid variants" . They are also able to infect others as evidenced by the Texas Democrats.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/lone-star-politics/covid-19-derails-texas-democrats-lobbying-in-washington/2686702/

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Additionally, some on this board seem so quick to shame, blame, and assign motivations to our fellow citizens for their personal decisions regarding covid-19 vaccinations, while making no noise about or demands for vaccination or testing from those illegally pouring across the southern border from multiple countries carrying who knows what potentially new variants. Those folks are being transported all over the country. 

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2 hours ago, Fritz said:

Unfortunately, those that have been vaccinated can still get Covid-19 and are able to be "incubators for Covid variants" . They are also able to infect others as evidenced by the Texas Democrats.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/lone-star-politics/covid-19-derails-texas-democrats-lobbying-in-washington/2686702/

But the vaccinated are less than half as likely to get Covid and be in incubator. That cuts the chances. That's important. 

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5 hours ago, TechWife said:

 

So, for those of you that are choosing not to vax based upon an evaluation of personal risk factors - Does your evaluation take into account the fact that you are an incubator for COVID variants? How to you assess that? 
Also, where is the tipping point in your risk benefit analysis? What variables are you taking into consideration and what is the threshold at which time you will change your risk benefit analysis to be weighted in the opposite direction? 
 

Also, when assessing risk factors does the health and well being of your community have a place in the equation? How much weight do you give it? What are the thresholds that would cause a change in your calculation?



 

Ok, I'll try to answer.

1. I don't worry about being "an incubator for covid variants" because I've studied biology. I know that all viruses mutate as the host population develops immunity. Variants usually get more contagious and less deadly. 

 

2. I watch the numbers every day. My county counts any hospitalized patient who tests positive as a covid patient (so someone going in to have a baby who tests positive is included in the numbers, not just those hospitalized for covid) and today there are two people hospitalized, none in intensive care. If I saw that changing drastically and I thought I could help by getting vaccinated, I'd do it. 

3. Yes, I consider community factors. My boys got the rubella shot to protect others, for example. In this case the shot is new and we don't even know how effective it is long term, against variants, etc. 

I think that lockdowns, closed schools, etc. were the result of poor government policies. They have just drawn out the pandemic. You can compare the numbers between states and see this.

 

There you go. You asked, so I answered. I'm not trying to convince you, just tell you that I have thought about these things and come to a different conclusion than you have.

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Our state tracks breakthrough cases on their vaccine dashboard. Vaxxed are .095% of cases and .005% of hospitalizations.

We broke 1000 new cases today for the first time in a while and the dashboard says 86.7% of our cases right now are Delta. We only have around 46% of people here vaccinated and I really don’t understand why so many are still choosing not to have it. Some schools here start this week and I’m just hoping it doesn’t get truly awful.

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I just had a friend ask on Facebook for where to get the COVID shot.  She said she had procrastinated long enough and needed to just get it done already.  So that was interesting.  Access where we are is easy, but she has 3 kids under 3 and doing anything at all is complicated. She can get it done, but it will take effort and coordination and I guess she’s just been putting off.  

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2 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I just had a friend ask on Facebook for where to get the COVID shot.  She said she had procrastinated long enough and needed to just get it done already.  So that was interesting.  Access where we are is easy, but she has 3 kids under 3 and doing anything at all is complicated. She can get it done, but it will take effort and coordination and I guess she’s just been putting off.  

Good for her for getting it now! 

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44 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

I think that lockdowns, closed schools, etc. were the result of poor government policies. They have just drawn out the pandemic. You can compare the numbers between states and see this.

What, in your opinion, should have been done instead? Let the virus rip through the population, with refrigerated morgue trucks in cities, until everybody has either gotten ill and developed immunity, or died?

There is not a single state or country that has ended the pandemic. It's drawing out because it hasn't run out of people to infect.

Edited by regentrude
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4 hours ago, Fritz said:

Unfortunately, those that have been vaccinated can still get Covid-19 and are able to be "incubators for Covid variants" . They are also able to infect others as evidenced by the Texas Democrats.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/lone-star-politics/covid-19-derails-texas-democrats-lobbying-in-washington/2686702/

I am not asking about breakthrough cases. What I don't understand is people choosing to be incubators for Covid variants. As part of their risk/benefit analysis, I would like to understand if this is a factor for people who decide not to get the vaccination (not the people who can't - the people who won't - the people that are clearly making a choice). If this is not a factor, why not? If it is a factor, what is the tipping point? How many variants are acceptable? What kind of variants are acceptable? Do people who are making this choice understand that the development of new variants can't be slowed or stopped until the spread of the virus itself is under control? Do they understand that we have no control over how the new variants act and that those actions and the reactions of the human body are unknown until the variant is detectable and enough cases have occurred to provide meaningful data? Do the people making this choice understand that their choice affects other people? If so, what is their tipping point  - how sick are they willing to let others get before they take advantage of the best preventive measure that currently exists? If they don't understand these things - then from my perspective they are not making a fully informed choice. If they understand these things and chose not to take the incubator effect into consideration in their choice - then from my perspective their choice is not well thought out because they are choosing to ignore a significant piece of information.

The larger  questions I have that encompass answers to the questions above are:

Why are people making the choice not to get the vaccine?

What factors did they take into consideration in making their choice?

How did they weight those factors and why did they weight them in that way?

What is the tipping point that they would encounter that would change their minds? For example - How much data? What effectiveness rate? What breakthrough rate? What positive test rate? What death rate?

What methods do they see that they are willing to follow and will request that others follow will help us reach whatever their goal is?  Then relatedly - what reputable information can they offer the wider community that their preferred methods will result in attaining those goals?

 

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On 7/26/2021 at 9:21 AM, ktgrok said:

Just to clarify for anyone, even though there are more breakthrough cases with Delta than other variants, vaccination still does prevent a significant percent of infections, which means fewer people transmitting. And it seems to likely lower viral load, which also means less transmission. 

It isn't as good as we would like, but the best option for reducing cases and transmission. 

DH just sent me a link from CNN that claims unpublished research reviewed by the CDC found that the vaccinated shed just as much virus with Delta as the unvaccinated. They’re only less likely to die.  It doesn’t credit where the research comes from though, so idk how credible it is.

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2 hours ago, Muttichen1 said:

Ok, I'll try to answer.

1. I don't worry about being "an incubator for covid variants" because I've studied biology. I know that all viruses mutate as the host population develops immunity. Variants usually get more contagious and less deadly. 

 

2. I watch the numbers every day. My county counts any hospitalized patient who tests positive as a covid patient (so someone going in to have a baby who tests positive is included in the numbers, not just those hospitalized for covid) and today there are two people hospitalized, none in intensive care. If I saw that changing drastically and I thought I could help by getting vaccinated, I'd do it. 

3. Yes, I consider community factors. My boys got the rubella shot to protect others, for example. In this case the shot is new and we don't even know how effective it is long term, against variants, etc. 

I think that lockdowns, closed schools, etc. were the result of poor government policies. They have just drawn out the pandemic. You can compare the numbers between states and see this.

 

There you go. You asked, so I answered. I'm not trying to convince you, just tell you that I have thought about these things and come to a different conclusion than you have.

Thank you for answering, I do appreciate it. If you don't mind answering a few follow up questions, I'd appreciate it. If you'd rather not, I understand, just ignore them, it won't bother me a bit!

1 - How do you think that the host population is going to develop immunity?

2 - How would you know if your getting vaccinated would help at some future time? What criteria are you using to evaluate this?

3 - How much data would you need in order to be comfortable with the knowledge surrounding longevity and variants? How many vaccinations, how many cases, how many variants? Also, what effectiveness rates or other information does that data need to show in order for you to consider a vaccination for covid to be a contribution you can make to your community?

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Katy said:

DH just sent me a link from CNN that claims unpublished research reviewed by the CDC found that the vaccinated shed just as much virus with Delta as the unvaccinated. They’re only less likely to die.  It doesn’t credit where the research comes from though, so idk how credible it is.

What I read said that it’s appearing that breakthrough cases shed as much as unvaccinated cases. But vaccinated people are still less likely to get it, so they’re not shedding virus if they’re not infected. That still sucks, but if someone isn’t infected, they’re not shedding the virus. Fortunately the vaccine is still working incredibly well for preventing severe illness and death. The high levels of transmission happening right now do make me worry about our good luck with the vaccines working so well eventually running out if people continue to not get vaccinated and we have transmission lasting long enough. Then we could be right back at the beginning of this with a variant that’s even worse. 

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