Jump to content

Menu

The “vaccination divide” in the US


Ginevra
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just now, TexasProud said:

YES!!!!!!!

He is authoritarian.  I voted for Biden last time. 3rd party first time. Biden felt like at least he had a moral bone in his body even if I disagreed with some of his policies. Trump was borderline insane at the end. 

Yes me too.  I don’t agree with everything Biden says but I’m certain he’s a good person trying to do what’s right for the country. 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

Within the less educated cohort, you're only trying to reach the hesitant - there's zero point trying to reach mark of the devil madness.

If the hesitant less educated aren't listening, the public health campaign is no good. 

The hesitant within the less educated cohort are being fed misinformation. Cynical manipulation of the masses and political gain are all part of the picture. My DH says that most of the Senators and Congresspeople who are publicly opposed to vaccines are themselves vaccinated (I don't know his source, but he said he read it in on a news site like NBC or CNN).

  • Like 6
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mathnerd said:

The hesitant within the less educated cohort are being fed misinformation. Cynical manipulation of the masses and political gain are all part of the picture. My DH says that most of the Senators and Congresspeople who are publicly opposed to vaccines are themselves vaccinated (I don't know his source, but he said he read it in on a news site like NBC or CNN).

Oh, I'd believe that! Politician  hypocrisy is not hard to believe at all.  

I guess misinformation takes hold in particular contexts where trust is very low. 

It's still a problem to be solved at the population level, not by blaming individuals. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes. In a less educated cohort, you will get unreachable groups.*

You don't waste resources on unreachable. My objection is conflating ALL less educated with unreachable. Find the hesitant, work to reach them. Perhaps in your area, that's already been done - you've already reached the less educated hesitant. You've got the ceiling. 

Or maybe there are structural reasons the hesitant staff aren't responding as they should. 

*There are unreachable groups re vaccines at all education levels in my experience. I've met PhD educated liberal Americans who don't vaccinate, and our highest pockets of anti vaccination here correlate with Green + wealth. 

I think part of the problem is several cases of famous Black people who died within days of getting the vaccine. Hank Aaron being one example.  The city closest to me had early access for black people, but few people showed up.  Last I heard they had people going door to door offering vaccines.  Few takers. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, TCB said:

Do you have any idea how vaccines became so repugnant to conservatives, given how Trump did speed along development and was very positive about them before they were released? I think that is a very interesting thing.

The cynical side of me says it likely has something to do with who was in power when the vaccines became readily available. Republicans had long been conditioned not to trust the government or science. And a great deal of misinformation about the virus was spread by Republican leaders from the very beginning. So by the time the vaccine was available, many didn’t trust the science or the government and many Republican leaders used this to retain support with their base. They didn’t want to be seen supporting something that might benefit the new administration who might then be able to say they led the country in bringing an end to the pandemic.

It’s important to note that some conservatives here no longer consider themselves Republicans and see the Republican Party as having been hijacked by extremists and populists. That’s why you had many lifelong Republican leaders endorsing the current president in the last election and/or leaving the Republican Party.

  • Like 6
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Muttichen1 said:

I didn't say no one has gotten sick and died. Of course they have. But the chance of a young, healthy person getting seriously ill is very low. 

But you aren’t young, correct? You are at least middle aged? Given the relatively high rates of vaccination among the elderly, it’s not surprising that middle aged people and younger are now predominantly the ones getting hospitalized for covid in my area. 

Plus, getting vaccinated, masking, social distancing, etc. are not just things we do for ourselves, but things we do in the name of public health for the greater good. Our moral responsibility extends beyond our own selfish desires in order to help protect the most vulnerable among us. Not to mention give the overwhelmed health care professionals a break. It’s so strange to me that many conservative Christians are among those that do not seem to understand this, as it was a fundamental component of my religious upbringing.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Seems to me that the GOP leaders will realize that their voters are dying faster than the Democrat's voters, and at that point go beg people to get vaccinated. Especially in tight swing states like FL where just 1000 dead GOP voters could flip the state and the election.

It seems that some Republican leaders and personalities have changed their tune in the last week or so with the Delta variant surging and the stock market taking its largest dip since last fall (it’s now bounced back). 
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/fox-news-conservatives-vaccines-sean-hannity/619510/

Edited by Frances
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I am fortunate as well. Our community did not lose any young or healthy people.

I do not know anyone who was sick with anything worse than cold-like symptoms either. And we are in a state that was hit pretty hard. As stated before I'm not vaxxed, not sure if I'll get it (won't say never), but am being extremely careful because I do realize there were a lot of bad outcomes. I go to work and do shopping/errands with a mask, and visit with others outside, and feel comfortable with that. I do wish we had more information - scratch that, I wish TPTB would share more information about who is really high risk, how/where most people are getting it, percentage with comorbidities, etc. I do a ton of research and feel pretty comfortable with my risk level, but it shouldn't be so hard to find the information. They were sharing more in the beginning of all this. My personal thought is they're afraid if they share, less people will get vaccinated. I am thankful that the UK and other countries are doing so much research and sharing so much information. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, regentrude said:

There has been a big shift in the Republican party. A few decades ago, they were fiscal conservatives pro economic freedom. Now the main focus has moved to social issues and preserving what is best described as "Christian family values".

Because social wedge issues are a great way to rally your base. Instilling anger and creating an us against them vibe is very, very effective politically.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, SKL said:

Trump was never anti-vax.  Hate him all you want, but he deserves a huge amount of credit for making the vaxes available ridiculously fast.  I remember the days when the libs were the anti-vax group because the vax was a Trump thing.  It's interesting how history gets re-written.

Like this? 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I do not know anyone who was sick with anything worse than cold-like symptoms either. And we are in a state that was hit pretty hard. As stated before I'm not vaxxed, not sure if I'll get it (won't say never), but am being extremely careful because I do realize there were a lot of bad outcomes. I go to work and do shopping/errands with a mask, and visit with others outside, and feel comfortable with that. I do wish we had more information - scratch that, I wish TPTB would share more information about who is really high risk, how/where most people are getting it, percentage with comorbidities, etc. I do a ton of research and feel pretty comfortable with my risk level, but it shouldn't be so hard to find the information. They were sharing more in the beginning of all this. My personal thought is they're afraid if they share, less people will get vaccinated. I am thankful that the UK and other countries are doing so much research and sharing so much information. 

Not even anyone who lost their sense of taste and smell? While my state has done a pretty good job through this whole thing, all of the people I know who got sick described it as being the sickest or almost the sickest they’ve ever been. And all were a bit freaked out by losing their sense of taste and smell and many by being so out of breath. I know two healthy 30 somethings who struggled with long covid for close to a year. Now granted maybe I don’t anyone who would describe it as only a cold because testing was really bad in my state for a long time.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Seems to me that the GOP leaders will realize that their voters are dying faster than the Democrat's voters, and at that point go beg people to get vaccinated. Especially in tight swing states like FL where just 1000 dead GOP voters could flip the state and the election.

I thought this last year, when Trump et al was spurning mail in ballots and ballot box drop off as “ripe with fraud” (which is also the wrong word, but I digress), and pushing their constituency to go in person to polls, even if that means standing with other people for hours. It made NO sense to me why a political party would want it’s base to put themselves at risk of dying. 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

I thought this last year, when Trump et al was spurning mail in ballots and ballot box drop off as “ripe with fraud” (which is also the wrong word, but I digress), and pushing their constituency to go in person to polls, even if that means standing with other people for hours. It made NO sense to me why a political party would want it’s base to put themselves at risk of dying. 

Because retaining power by keeping the lies about a stolen election alive and playing the wronged victim energizes your base? In order to have an “us”, you have to create a “them”. We’re all in this together is not an effective political strategy.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

 I do wish we had more information - scratch that, I wish TPTB would share more information about who is really high risk, how/where most people are getting it, percentage with comorbidities, etc. I do a ton of research and feel pretty comfortable with my risk level, but it shouldn't be so hard to find the information. They were sharing more in the beginning of all this. My personal thought is they're afraid if they share, less people will get vaccinated. I am thankful that the UK and other countries are doing so much research and sharing so much information. 

I was very perplexed when I saw there were a number of break through cases as I had been thrilled when it was previously announced that vaccines seem to prevent infections to a large extent. I have started being careful about masking around other people indoors again, as I don’t want to spread it to anyone. It is amazing, though, how the vaccinations are preventing serious illness. I am seeing that with my own eyes. Seeing it has persuaded several people I work with, who were previously hesitant, to get vaccinated.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

Not even anyone who lost their sense of taste and smell? While my state has done a pretty good job through this whole thing, all of the people I know who got sick described it as being the sickest or almost the sickest they’ve ever been. And all were a bit freaked out by losing their sense of taste and smell and many by being so out of breath. I know two healthy 30 somethings who struggled with long covid for close to a year. Now granted maybe I don’t anyone who would describe it as only a cold because testing was really bad in my state for a long time.

Almost everyone I knew had what felt like colds too except my BIL(who was fully vaccinated) who was hospitalized and an older lady I know, also hospitalized for a couple days. I really think this clusters so much it really hits people very differently. One person can lose many while another doesn't know anyone seriously ill. It is the nature of the beast.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Frances said:

Because retaining power by keeping the lies about a stolen election alive and playing the wronged victim energizes your base? In order to have an “us”, you have to create a “them”. We’re all in this together is not an effective political strategy.

Right but they didn’t actually know they were going to do that stolen election B.S., right? Trump was still, apparently, right to think it was *possible* he might (legitimately) win. I guess I just don’t see why the us v. them tact to take would be, “*They* are fine with mail-in ballots and drop boxes and early voting, so *we* have to be against doing those things.” Like, why would *any* political party think the smartest route is to make it harder for people to vote? I mean, there’s got to be some would-be Trump voters who would be able to vote by mail in or Dropbox but not by standing around at a poll site. (Like a whole bunch of elderly folks, for instance.) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, I am a Christian, but honestly tge Republican party no longer represents me. I an pro life…ALl life including Black lives. I am a fiscal conservative.(Which Trump was not)  I believe in common sense gun control.  I have no party

I am in a similar situation.   I feel like I have no party.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Quill said:

Right but they didn’t actually know they were going to do that stolen election B.S., right? Trump was still, apparently, right to think it was *possible* he might (legitimately) win. I guess I just don’t see why the us v. them tact to take would be, “*They* are fine with mail-in ballots and drop boxes and early voting, so *we* have to be against doing those things.” Like, why would *any* political party think the smartest route is to make it harder for people to vote? I mean, there’s got to be some would-be Trump voters who would be able to vote by mail in or Dropbox but not by standing around at a poll site. (Like a whole bunch of elderly folks, for instance.) 

No, I believe they saw the hand writing on the wall and were setting up the stolen election claim far in advance of the actual election. Trump had actually used it before in regards to others long before 2020.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-longstanding-history-calling-elections-rigged-doesnt-results/story?id=74126926

Edited by Frances
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s important to note that some conservatives here no longer consider themselves Republicans and see the Republican Party as having been hijacked by extremists and populists. That’s why you had many lifelong Republican leaders endorsing the current president in the last election and/or leaving the Republican Party.

I guess it goes both ways. Many of my democratic friends have become libertarian or republican in the last year. They don't recognize their party anymore. I'm libertarian so have no skin in the game. Also, anyone who believes CNN to be a reputable non biased news source (I see some shade on Fox here) is delusional. Neither is better than the other IMO. Really, there's not a news source on television I would say is reputable. Their only goal seems to be to polarize the country, not deliver factual news.

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 3
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, whitestavern said:

I guess it goes both ways. Many of my democratic friends have become libertarian or republican in the last year. They don't recognize their party anymore. I'm libertarian so have no skin in the game. Also, anyone who believes CNN to be a reputable non biased news source (I see some shade on Fox here) is delusional. Neither is better than the other IMO. Really, there's not a news source on television I would say is reputable. Their only goal seems to be to polarize the country, not deliver factual news.

I know a lot of 'politically homeless' leftists. It's definitely not a one-sided thing. 

  • Like 3
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I guess it goes both ways. Many of my democratic friends have become libertarian or republican in the last year. They don't recognize their party anymore. I'm libertarian so have no skin in the game. Also, anyone who believes CNN to be a reputable non biased news source (I see some shade on Fox here) is delusional. Neither is better than the other IMO. Really, there's not a news source on television I would say is reputable. Their only goal seems to be to polarize the country, not deliver factual news.

I don’t think lots of people think CNN is unbiased, though. You can think Fox is awful and still think CNN is too. A couple of the shows on Fox are so biased I can hardly bear to be in a room with it on. But I have also turned off CNN while saying, “Such bologney!”

  • Like 9
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Muttichen1 said:

If they are vaccinated, they are protected against serious illness. There always will be people who are medically fragile and we'll do what we can to protect them. I'm not convinced in this case that me getting a vaccine is helpful. I will stay home if sick, etc.

Again, I know we disagrees. I just wanted to give a perspective from the other side.

Some cannot be vaccinated for health reasons and it is known that the vaccine is less effective for some others. And you may not know you have covid.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Katy said:

That’s likely a spin off question, but I don’t think there is a way unless as a culture we start making fun of people addicted to rage media. 

And also people start holding leaders in their own party accountable for serious lies, rather than cheering as those leaders standing up and telling the truth are gleefully put in their place.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Frances said:

Not even anyone who lost their sense of taste and smell? While my state has done a pretty good job through this whole thing, all of the people I know who got sick described it as being the sickest or almost the sickest they’ve ever been. And all were a bit freaked out by losing their sense of taste and smell and many by being so out of breath. I know two healthy 30 somethings who struggled with long covid for close to a year. Now granted maybe I don’t anyone who would describe it as only a cold because testing was really bad in my state for a long time.

My two nieces and a bf of one got it, all mild. Several people I work with, all a few years older than me, described it like a cold. They were well enough to work from home while quarantining. A few friends and a neighbor my age and my uncle in his early 80s were the same. I believe most of them lost their sense of taste and smell, but I don't consider that very sick. They are all fine now, thankfully. I don't disagree that there have been horrible outcomes (death, hospitalization, long-term Covid), I just don't know anyone who had that experience. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I guess it goes both ways. Many of my democratic friends have become libertarian or republican in the last year. They don't recognize their party anymore. I'm libertarian so have no skin in the game. Also, anyone who believes CNN to be a reputable non biased news source (I see some shade on Fox here) is delusional. Neither is better than the other IMO. Really, there's not a news source on television I would say is reputable. Their only goal seems to be to polarize the country, not deliver factual news.

I’ve never ever watch any news. We’ve had the discussion on this board before and I don’t believe anyone putting down Fox News suggested CNN as a viable alternative. Not that I choose to watch any of them, but I do think there are relatively centrist mainstream TV news choices if that is the medium one prefers. And neither Fox nor CNN are it.

As I’m a moderate, I definitely don’t agree with everything either party does. The number of lifelong Republican leaders coming out and endorsing Biden certainly was unprecedented though. It was refreshing to see people standing up for their principles and putting country before party. Even though I most definitely don’t agree with everything our current president does, it is a relief to have a mature adult in charge who truly seems to care about our country and is not a direct threat to our democratic norms and institutions.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Quill wanted input about different views, but people expressing different views are being attacked.  Not sure what is the point of piling onto the one person who dared to try to explain a different view.

I'm not going to pile on a particular person, but I can say in general that I think this issue is just particularly charged and hard to respond to in a detached manner, because the covid-minimizing, anti-vax sentiment that has been pushed hard by one  group is responsible at this point for us heading into this new wave at a time when we could be done with any more waves. I thought my kids were going to be able to have a normal fall, and they could have if people who could get vaccinated would (and if in the very least they would all mask and not have parties and such). But now we're headed back into another surge and we're at risk of this driving yet a new variant, which may eventually evade the vaccine, and then we'll all be seriously at risk again. It's hard not to have a strong reaction to that and feel upset. It's kind of how one might feel living in wildfire country and having your neighbors sitting out in their dry grass smoking every night. I may have my personal fire extiguisher all charged up and ready to go, but that doesn't mean they're not still putting us all at grave risk.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps it has already be discussed. But can someone please explain to me why more conservative people are less likely to get the vaccine in the USA. What does being conservative have to do with vaccines?  Here in NZ, it is not political -- getting vaccinated has nothing to do with politics. We definitely have an antivax crowd, but in my experience, they are either hippies or part of the Brethren - so on completely opposite ends of the spectrum of politics.

Others have explained it at this point, but I agree it's so strange. It didn't used to be associated with conservativism here like it suddenly has become.

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Public health recognises social determinants like education level. But it can't be left there. The less educated deserve respectful health education, targeted at their needs, also. 

If the correlation is strong, there's a reason for it, and I'd suggest that it's a public health responsibility to respond to it. If rates are persistently low in any particular cohort, that's not just an individual problem, nor is the individual solely to blame. 

This is totally true, but at the same time, I'm seeing public health trying every which way to find a way to reach people, and somehow it's just being too hard to overcome. The recent new strategy of going door to door to offer people vaccine information and the opportunity to get vaccinated has backfired by the right making it into a political thing and comparing them to the gestapo.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

Well, that is why I am so confused. Didn't Trump push really hard to get the vaccine made in record time?  Why in the world would he and his party not want to take credit for that and push for all Republicans to take advantage of the Republican vaccine?

I agree that is so strange. I actually think Trump could have won re-election had he handled this entire thing differently from the very start, but it's been a mess.

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Trump was never anti-vax.  Hate him all you want, but he deserves a huge amount of credit for making the vaxes available ridiculously fast.  I remember the days when the libs were the anti-vax group because the vax was a Trump thing.  It's interesting how history gets re-written.

That's disingenuous. That's not how it happened. There was never a democrat anti-vax message. There was a time shortly before the election when Trump wanted to speed up approval before the end of the trial timeline, before the results were done. He wanted the vaccine to be released before the election. Scientists were widely against rushing the timeline, and they didn't. It's the same reason that the kid's vaccine isn't out yet. They have to wait to finish the work and can't just rush it through for political or other motivations. They are doing it properly, as they did then.

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Not anymore. Vaccines are readily available and accessible now to anybody who wants them.

I think it's still an issue for some people who can't take time from work or afford to be out with symptoms from vaccine side effects.

2 hours ago, SKL said:

And the democrats also downplayed Covid early on, accusing conservatives of being racist for thinking maybe we shouldn't import Covid too eagerly.  "Come to Chinatown and enjoy the New Year's parade" was the Democrat message.

That wasn't the Democrat message, that's disingenuous again. In February 2020, before things got serious in the US and before anything had closed, Nancy Pelosi made a comment about people continuing to visit China Town, because the Asian hate stuff had started already and Chinese businesses were being specifically shunned. She didn't invite anyone to a parade, that was a false Tweet Trump made (hello, holding rallies in the middle of a pandemic once we KNEW what was going on?). A statement made by one democrat in February 2020 can hardly be honestly held up as Democrats downplaying Covid.  https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-false-claims-about-pelosi-and-chinatown/

 

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

One thing that was done here was the Māori and Pacifica were vaccinated first because they have such terrible health outcomes.  So the tribes and churches have been huge in getting their populations to accept the vaccine. 

That has been true with Native Americans as well. In fact, they have the highest vaccination rate: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I do wish we had more information - scratch that, I wish TPTB would share more information about who is really high risk, how/where most people are getting it, percentage with comorbidities, etc. I do a ton of research and feel pretty comfortable with my risk level, but it shouldn't be so hard to find the information. They were sharing more in the beginning of all this. My personal thought is they're afraid if they share, less people will get vaccinated. I am thankful that the UK and other countries are doing so much research and sharing so much information. 

I don't gather than there is information we have that just isn't being shared. I think we're not gathering all the information I wish we had, but a lot of the other things have been studied and I've seen continued reporting on comorbidities, but I agree more information would always be better. I think a lot of it is likely resources. They can't do everything, and the whole test and trace thing has largely gone out the window, unfortunately, so we lose the ability to have the vast amount of helpful research data that comes from places that do that. A lot of the early info on comorbidities came out of China.

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Like, why would *any* political party think the smartest route is to make it harder for people to vote? I mean, there’s got to be some would-be Trump voters who would be able to vote by mail in or Dropbox but not by standing around at a poll site. (Like a whole bunch of elderly folks, for instance.) 

I agree it seems like a bad idea to make it harder for anyone, much less elderly folks to vote, but they have the numbers to show that making it harder to vote hurts Democrats, because it's not the elderly that are most impacted by that overall. It's people who can't take time off work and/or stand in long lines because their neighborhoods have so few polling places and those are disproportionately people of color.

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

Also, anyone who believes CNN to be a reputable non biased news source (I see some shade on Fox here) is delusional.

As I see now others have already said, I don't think many people here say this. We've had this conversation before, and people are in pretty wide agreement that CNN is not where to go for non biased news.

  • Like 18
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess if you've reached peak vaccine uptake, then you have, and maybe send the surplus elsewhere ? 

I still think failures of public health are failures of public health, and not individual failures. There are clearly systemic issues at play if you can't get the majority of any population vaccinated. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Right but they didn’t actually know they were going to do that stolen election B.S., right? Trump was still, apparently, right to think it was *possible* he might (legitimately) win. I guess I just don’t see why the us v. them tact to take would be, “*They* are fine with mail-in ballots and drop boxes and early voting, so *we* have to be against doing those things.” Like, why would *any* political party think the smartest route is to make it harder for people to vote? I mean, there’s got to be some would-be Trump voters who would be able to vote by mail in or Dropbox but not by standing around at a poll site. (Like a whole bunch of elderly folks, for instance.) 

No he was complaining about threats of election fraud for months before the election.  He knew he would lose and he was looking for a fundraiser.  Hundreds of millions of dollars raised to spend any way he wants.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

No he was complaining about threats of election fraud for months before the election.  He knew he would lose and he was looking for a fundraiser.  Hundreds of millions of dollars raised to spend any way he wants.

I agree that he spread the fraud lie for months and months before the election but I do not think he thought it was possible he could actually lose. I think, in his personality-disordered way, he simply did not think one possible outcome is himself losing legitimately. I think he thought that, in the first place, millions of people are enthralled with him, and in the second place, he believed his Mafia-style “loyalty” would be on his side, for instance, his SCOTUS picks would put him in there if nothing else. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

I agree that he spread the fraud lie for months and months before the election but I do not think he thought it was possible he could actually lose. I think, in his personality-disordered way, he simply did not think one possible outcome is himself losing legitimately. I think he thought that, in the first place, millions of people are enthralled with him, and in the second place, he believed his Mafia-style “loyalty” would be on his side, for instance, his SCOTUS picks would put him in there if nothing else. 

He can have full blown NPD but not be completely delusional.  He was surprised when he won the first time.  I wouldn't be that surprised if he didn't vote for Hillary too.  I think even he is surprised by the way people loved him - as evidenced by that comment about how he could murder someone.

I think he saw the writing on the wall when Kamala Harris was announced as the VP candidate.  If I recall correctly he started attacking her before she was chosen.  And he immediately tried to disenfranchise black voters.

My evidence for this is that he was leaking rumors of starting his own news network before the election. I don't know if that's still in the cards or if he's so distracted by legal matters it will be a while.  What I do know for sure is that it won't stop when he's dead.  People will claim it was a conspiracy and he's in hiding and he'll come back to life to take out the pedophiles for a good 30 years.

ETA: Sometimes I wonder if he didn't have full blown NPD until he was elected.  He had narcissistic tendencies, but most politicians do.

Edited by Katy
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I agree that he spread the fraud lie for months and months before the election but I do not think he thought it was possible he could actually lose. I think, in his personality-disordered way, he simply did not think one possible outcome is himself losing legitimately. I think he thought that, in the first place, millions of people are enthralled with him, and in the second place, he believed his Mafia-style “loyalty” would be on his side, for instance, his SCOTUS picks would put him in there if nothing else. 

He himself may have been completely deluded, but certainly many of those around him knew the likely outcome and the advantage of setting up the groundwork for the “stolen election” lie strongly and far in advance. It’s just so sad that so many leaders would put our democracy at such risk in the name of power and continue to perpetuate the lie despite all evidence to the contrary.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, RootAnn said:

 

@KSera 10,000 is big for where I am. I live rural. Towns of 49, 159, 529, or the big ones like where I live of 3,000. Our entire county only has 7000 people in it. The county hospital has maybe 5 beds total. High deaths due to drugs & alcohol among young people. Plenty of cancer deaths. More than normal old people's deaths this last year. But death is part of life out here. So, yes, most people here will say their lives and their children's sports (which is king in our town) should not be disrupted for 3% hospitalization & even less covid-caused deaths. 

 

You must live in a similar area to me. A whopping total of 1000 in the entire county, and several towns with populations well under 100. A town with 10,000 would be a bustling metropolis. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, skywards said:

You must live in a similar area to me. A whopping total of 1000 in the entire county, and several towns with populations well under 100. A town with 10,000 would be a bustling metropolis. 

I was the one who used the 10,000 number and for what it’s worth, my town is way, way smaller than 10,000 also, I’m just aware that 10,000 is still considered a relatively small city, and it made for easy example numbers. My point still stands that I don’t think people understand what having a 3% risk of hospitalization and 1% risk of death means. Those aren’t tiny risks compared to most things we do in life. 

Edited by KSera
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, KSera said:

I was the one who used the 10,000 number and for what it’s worth, my town is way, way smaller than 10,000 also, I’m just aware that 10,000 is still considered a relatively small city, and it made for easy example numbers. My point still stands that I don’t think people understand what having a 3% risk of hospitalization and 1% risk of death means. Those aren’t tiny risks compared to most things we do in life. 

I agree with you and I have been earnestly trying to educate people whenever I can that if 100 million people have gotten the Pfizer vaccine and it offered 96% protection against hospitalization, the rest of the 4% are going to be badly affected. 4% of 100 million computes to 4 million hospitalizations just in one "season" or one "covid wave". I have used this reasoning to explain how contagious Delta strain is with friends who like to shop without masks and I have been told that this is "Sensationalism". And in recent news, my county (and every neighboring county) recommended masking in indoor settings.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, KSera said:

I was the one who used the 10,000 number and for what it’s worth, my town is way, way smaller than 10,000 also, I’m just aware that 10,000 is still considered a relatively small city, and it made for easy example numbers. My point still stands that I don’t think people understand what having a 3% risk of hospitalization and 1% risk of death means. Those aren’t tiny risks compared to most things we do in life. 

Honestly I was just amused and slightly amazed that someone else on here actually lives in a town/county/area as small as mine is. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Please provide proof that that (“Come to Chinatown…”) was ever a Democrat message. 
Proof is not some conservative rag bag saying such a thing happened. Proof is links to Democrats stating what you claim they did. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, frogger said:

Almost everyone I knew had what felt like colds too except my BIL(who was fully vaccinated) who was hospitalized and an older lady I know, also hospitalized for a couple days. I really think this clusters so much it really hits people very differently. One person can lose many while another doesn't know anyone seriously ill. It is the nature of the beast.

Similar here.  I know very few people IRL who had any Covid symptoms at all.  Those whom I know IRL who had symptoms thought it was a cold or similar mild bug.  I do know of a couple people who are not close who got quite ill, but recovered.  I have a friend who lost a second cousin in India, and the lady who groomed my dog lost her grandma (who was fully vaxed) to Covid.  That said, I still don't want my unvaxed mom to catch Covid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

She did not say come and enjoy the parade, as it had already taken place. Lots more falsehoods about the visit and Trump’s statements are explained here.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-false-claims-about-pelosi-and-chinatown/

It is pretty interesting for people to try and dig up one claim that a Democratic leader downplayed the virus threat when many Republican leaders continue to do so daily. There is nothing remotely equivalent going on nor was there ever.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, lewelma said:

Seems to me that the GOP leaders will realize that their voters are dying faster than the Democrat's voters, and at that point go beg people to get vaccinated. Especially in tight swing states like FL where just 1000 dead GOP voters could flip the state and the election.

Is this actually the case, though?  I’ve thought that perhaps some of the political divide in perceptions of covid risk is based on most of the worst hit areas being left-leaning denser population regions, and many right-leaning more rural areas generally taking a lighter toll.  Even Florida, with its dense, older population, had escaped much of the worst of covid for whatever reason, a few months ago when I was still watching those stats.  Are there numbers now showing republicans dying in higher numbers, now that everyone who wants to be is vaxed?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

She did not say come and enjoy the parade, as it had already taken place. Lots more falsehoods about the visit and Trump’s statements are explained here.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-false-claims-about-pelosi-and-chinatown/

It is pretty interesting for people to try and dig up one claim that a Democratic leader downplayed the virus threat when many Republican leaders continue to do so daily. There is nothing remotely equivalent going on nor was there ever.

I didn't try to dig up anything, I remember how things actually happened at the time.  You asked for proof so I posted a video with the then highest level democrat stating the democrat position.

The fact is that both sides have politicized this disease from the beginning, and they continue to do so.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Please provide proof that that (“Come to Chinatown…”) was ever a Democrat message. 
Proof is not some conservative rag bag saying such a thing happened. Proof is links to Democrats stating what you claim they did. 

I'm Asian...this really did happen because our communities were talking about it. This is a SF local news station.

https://www.kron4.com/video/nancy-pelosi-encourages-chinatown-visitors/4354116/

Edited by calbear
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, mathnerd said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/young-unvaccinated-people-are-being-hospitalized-covid-19-delta-variant-n1273998

You are very fortunate if you did not know any young and healthy people who have gotten seriously ill due to Covid.

So far, I have not personally known a single person who had Covid, nor has any other member of my 14 person family. My family situation is a little unusual though. I have been housebound due to health issues for about a year now, my hubby works from home, two other household members have been unemployed for quite a long time now, one of my other dd is a SAHM and her hubby owns a restaurant with a full time manager so he rarely has to go in, another dd works from home. So of our family of 14 people, only three work outside the home and one of those doesn't live here. We only socialize with each other and leave our homes as little as possible. Where I live at least, I don't think that it is terribly uncommon to not know a person who has had covid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lack of trust in media / messaging is a big problem, and media of all stripes are guilty of this.  Naturally, people who have been burned by believing lies called "news" are going to look elsewhere for information, or just give up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...