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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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21 hours ago, regentrude said:

If certain segments of the population consume only one news channel and that news channel is full of misinformation, how do you get the information to them? 
What should public health officials try? Out of desperation, they're now trying to bribe folks by having lotteries.

Fox news has lots of people talking about how good the vaccines are.

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1 hour ago, Pen said:


It may depend on the outcome of the current situation. If pro vaxxers prove to have made the right decision and the vax resistors die, then pro vaxxers will probably dominate the future world. If pro vaxxers are making wrong decision the reverse will probably be true. If both groups largely survive then I guess the hatred will continue, unless people learn not to hate, and not to “other” those who disagree with their point of view
 

whooping cough is an interesting example choice — locally we had big whooping cough outbreak amongst vaccinated kids in recent years btw  ! 

I am sure everyone on Wtm knows the msm view of CV19 vaxxes  - or if not can easily find that

Otoh:


https://www.bitchute.com/video/1NPihUuZaup0/

 

this accords more with my education, but I accept that you are entitled to have and to express your own opinion - even though I think you do not accept that I am 

 

We already know what is happening. What future time frame are you waiting for? The vast, vast majority of people now hospitalized for covid and dying here are not vaccinated. No one is hating anyone. They are just fed up with people making selfish decisions often based on misinformation and conspiracy theories that are leading to more and more dangerous variants and more suffering and death. Not to mention the terrible toll on healthcare workers.

And of course you are entitled to your opinion. But I’m most definitely going to call you out for the immorality of your choice and the harm you are causing. It’s bad enough that you are not vaccinated, but continuing to spread misinformation and conspiracy theories is even worse.

And I’m curious to know what your advanced degrees are in, since I’m married to a medical professional who also has a science PhD. Are you actively working as a scientist, epidemiologist, or healthcare professional? And yeah I know your parents are both doctors, but that doesn’t say anything about your education, training, or experience.

Edited by Frances
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7 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Fox news has lots of people talking about how good the vaccines are.

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

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1 hour ago, Pen said:


It may depend on the outcome of the current situation. If pro vaxxers prove to have made the right decision and the vax resistors die, then pro vaxxers will probably dominate the future world. If pro vaxxers are making wrong decision the reverse will probably be true. If both groups largely survive then I guess the hatred will continue, unless people learn not to hate, and not to “other” those who disagree with their point of view
 

whooping cough is an interesting example choice — locally we had big whooping cough outbreak amongst vaccinated kids in recent years btw  ! 

I am sure everyone on Wtm knows the msm view of CV19 vaxxes  - or if not can easily find that

Otoh:


https://www.bitchute.com/video/1NPihUuZaup0/

 

this accords more with my education, but I accept that you are entitled to have and to express your own opinion - even though I think you do not accept that I am 

 

We already know who is sick and dying. It’s not some deep mystery. As the Alabama governor says, it’s common sense.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/07/its-time-to-start-blaming-the-unvaccinated-folks-says-alabama-gov-after-rise-in-covid-19-cases.html

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1 hour ago, Kakids said:

 

There are vaccines available, but I wouldn’t call them entirely accessible yet. I have a family member who needs accommodations in order to be able to get vaccinated. There has not yet been a way for them to get the vaccine with the needed accommodations.

This above is a fear of mine. That the above belief will be taken so literally, since the easy to vaccinate have been done, enough people will believe that no one else wants it, and it will become a problem of both accessibility and availability for others to get vaccinated.

Yes, I believe we should help others elsewhere when we can. But who is making the decisions of when we can and how much?

The voices insisting that EVERYONE who wants a vaccine already has it are vehement and loud. 

I suspect there are many people in the USA who are not yet vaccinated because they are not easily accessible. My parents' church began an initiative in early 2021 to help get people in the community vaccinated. There are many people who do not have the ability to go online and book an appointment. Others did not have transportation to their appointments. 

I've read that it's difficult to get the vaccine in rural areas. 

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4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I suspect there are many people in the USA who are not yet vaccinated because they are not easily accessible. My parents' church began an initiative in early 2021 to help get people in the community vaccinated. There are many people who do not have the ability to go online and book an appointment. Others did not have transportation to their appointments. 

I've read that it's difficult to get the vaccine in rural areas. 

They proposed going door to door in rural areas here, but local officials told them it would backfire due to mistrust of the government.

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7 minutes ago, Frances said:

They proposed going door to door in rural areas here, but local officials told them it would backfire due to mistrust of the government.

Yes, and it has become such a polarizing situation that pastors won't talk about it which means that the natural place in these communities would be  to offer accessible clinics with help to get people there. That's a tragedy IMO because this should be what churches are also in the business of doing...meeting people's physical needs.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/may/white-evangelical-pastors-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-preach-ch.html

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21 minutes ago, calbear said:

Yes, and it has become such a polarizing situation that pastors won't talk about it which means that the natural place in these communities would be  to offer accessible clinics with help to get people there. That's a tragedy IMO because this should be what churches are also in the business of doing...meeting people's physical needs.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/may/white-evangelical-pastors-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-preach-ch.html

Definitely - I think we'd see a real pick up in vaccination rates in both African American and conservative Christian populations if churches would start serving as vaccine clinics. 

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One reason, I think, that in Michigan rates are lower than other areas is due to the way COVID was handled early on by both sides.   The Democrats were major lock down with many rules complex and ever changing and not based on science or data while many Republicans were saying it wasn't serious.

Rules like you can't go to your summer home....but then the governor did, or you can't do ........but the governor did, etc made a lot of people mad and skeptical of any information coming from the governor.

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I was mulling things over today. Something feels different this time. Now that vaccines are widely available in the US/UK, it feels like the divide is at a whole different level. I'm sensing that there's going to a lack of empathy for the unvaccinated with the exception of children. Things look like they are going to get pretty ugly.


 

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52 minutes ago, calbear said:

I was mulling things over today. Something feels different this time. Now that vaccines are widely available in the US/UK, it feels like the divide is at a whole different level. I'm sensing that there's going to a lack of empathy for the unvaccinated with the exception of children. Things look like they are going to get pretty ugly.


 

It is very difficult. On the one hand, you always want to have empathy for those who are suffering. But on the other hand, they had the means readily available to prevent it and also help out the whole world in the process and they chose not to. Plus, who knows how many others they sickened? Not to mention all those who can’t get the vaccine or for whom it is known to not be very effective.

 

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

One reason, I think, that in Michigan rates are lower than other areas is due to the way COVID was handled early on by both sides.   The Democrats were major lock down with many rules complex and ever changing and not based on science or data while many Republicans were saying it wasn't serious.

Rules like you can't go to your summer home....but then the governor did, or you can't do ........but the governor did, etc made a lot of people mad and skeptical of any information coming from the governor.

Ideally they wouldn’t be looking to their governor for health advice on whether or not to get vaccinated. The vast, vast majority of public health professionals and doctors are urging vaccination.

Edited by Frances
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7 hours ago, katilac said:

"Rural" and "city" are hardly the only two choices. 

I don't live in a city, and I don't live in a rural area. 

OK but I still think my earlier statement was correct, that most US black people live in cities.  If that is incorrect then please state the correct fact so that other readers aren't confused.

If you're talking about suburbia, most suburbs are cities.

The point is that physical [distance] accessibility to the vaccine is not an issue that would explain much lower vaccine uptake in US black people vs. other demographics.  If that is not true, then please explain.

Edited by SKL
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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

My local paper did a similar article a couple of days ago. One man said he wasn't anti-vaccine, he just hadn't believed he really needed it. But he came in because "I decided to stop being stupid."

I thought that was a pretty honest answer.

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I have seen a recent increase in vaccines in our state and county, possibly because of concerns about Delta increasing cases.

I also wanted to note that there will still be people planning to vax once ___ is over ... for example, they may be holding off while pregnant, recovering from another illness, or other understandable delay ... plus, kids newly turning 12.  I never got the impression that we were done vaccinating just because folks aren't clamoring for the shot any more.

And there are still many locations here where anyone can walk in and get their free shot.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

It is very difficult. On the one hand, you always want to have empathy for those who are suffering. But on the other hand, they had the means readily available to prevent it and also help out the whole world in the process and they chose not to. Plus, who knows how many others they sickened? Not to mention all those who can’t get the vaccine or for whom it is known to not be very effective.

 

Ideally they wouldn’t be looking to their governor for health advice on whether or not to get vaccinated. The vast, vast majority of public health professionals and doctors are urging vaccination.

No, but it was our governor and her using the health department to enforce at times arbitrary and conflicting mandates that made people not trust her or the health department.

Not saying I agree, but I see that in some of my local friends.

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21 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

No, but it was our governor and her using the health department to enforce at times arbitrary and conflicting mandates that made people not trust her or the health department.

Not saying I agree, but I see that in some of my local friends.

Same in CA. 

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

OK but I still think my earlier statement was correct, that most US black people live in cities.  If that is incorrect then please state the correct fact so that other readers aren't confused.

If you're talking about suburbia, most suburbs are cities.

The point is that physical [distance] accessibility to the vaccine is not an issue that would explain much lower vaccine uptake in US black people vs. other demographics.  If that is not true, then please explain.

I don’t know the answer to the demographics, but I am still puzzled why you understand the reasons that some over 50s you know don’t want to be vaccinated, but the reasons given that some Black people haven’t been vaccinated “don’t fly.”  The logic given by the over 50s is as bad or worse, since they are at higher risk. Again, I personally think both groups should be protecting themselves and others with the vaccine, but that seems like a double standard. 

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

I have seen a recent increase in vaccines in our state and county, possibly because of concerns about Delta increasing cases.

I also wanted to note that there will still be people planning to vax once ___ is over ... for example, they may be holding off while pregnant, recovering from another illness, or other understandable delay ... plus, kids newly turning 12.  I never got the impression that we were done vaccinating just because folks aren't clamoring for the shot any more.

And there are still many locations here where anyone can walk in and get their free shot.

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

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31 minutes ago, frogger said:

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

When full approval happens, I think (hope!) more schools, businesses, and organizations will require it. Especially if the delta wave (and other variants coming behind it) are as terrible as it looks like they will be. 

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The Hive helped me to convince someone to get vaccinated this week.  The person was concerned about side effects as they knew several people who got pretty ill (fever, vomiting) from the vaccine.  I told them that my imaginary friends here did a poll and most people only experienced major side effects from the second shot.  They decided to get at least one shot and maybe get the second shot later.  I felt like it was a good compromise.

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14 hours ago, Frances said:

We already know who is sick and dying. It’s not some deep mystery. As the Alabama governor says, it’s common sense.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/07/its-time-to-start-blaming-the-unvaccinated-folks-says-alabama-gov-after-rise-in-covid-19-cases.html

We know in my state as well. Spoiler alert all the people in the ICU are unvaccinated.  In another city we have have had to call in help from another state for overrun hospital. Our governor just started a lottery for the vaccine and was talking about the treatments we have. We still have people dying and health care workers overworked with more risk so other people can have their precious choice..  Screw all those can't get vaccinated.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/07/24/metro/southwest-missouri-coronavirus-delta-variant-freedom-collide/

https://www.ksmu.org/post/help-coming-state-mo-address-growing-numbers-covid-cases-springfield-area#stream/0

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8 hours ago, frogger said:

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

I know for sure this is true in some cases. Dh really wants to wait for the full approval for our dd who turned 12 in April. She is very low risk and atm we have low numbers, everyone in the house is vaccinated as is close to 80% of our area so her risk to others is lowish, too. I would probably get her vaccinated but am playing the long game ( dh comes from a non-vaccine family ( he and dsil were not vaccinated as children) who have all gotten the vaccine. He just sees her risk as no more than flu rn and wants to give it more time “in case.”  So, yes, there are folks waiting for full approval. 

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On 7/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, lewelma said:

We have freedom of speech here too, but I think that you aren't allowed to say stuff that hurts other people.  There is a name for that even in the USA, and it is banned. 

Here is the site that tells you where to dob in misinformation

https://www.cert.govt.nz/individuals/common-threats/covid-19-vaccine-scams/report-covid-19-vaccine-scams-or-misinformation/

"Stopping the spread of mis and disinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine will limit any potential confusion for New Zealanders and help them to make informed decisions about the vaccine.

If possible,

  • Send us the link of the website if the content is online.
  • If you see COVID-19 misinformation on social media, report it to the platform (for example, Facebook or Twitter).
  • If it is a physical item, such as a leaflet, email us a photograph and if possible details of where and how you received it.
  • Include when you received the item and where it came from."

 

In the U.S., you can say things that hurt other people or companies as long as it is TRUE. If it's not true, it's either libel or slander, depending on whether it's written or oral. 

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20 hours ago, calbear said:

I didn't make any claims about it or interpret what she said. You are ascribing statements and conclusions by other posters to me that I didn't make anywhere in this thread or elsewhere on the forums. 

Wow...didn't you just do this to me? 

I was just telling you she did really go to the area so that you could see what she said as you asked for a media source that wasn't a conservative news outlet. 

I wasn’t responding to you, my add-on to you was meant to be more of an FYI. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, frogger said:

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

The availability of Novavax, too, could cause a bump. People who are leery of  mRNA for whatever reason might see the value of immunization from a more familiar technology. 

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19 hours ago, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

If Tucker Carlson isn't vaccinated, shouldn't he be wearing a mask? I read that it's Fox News policy that unvaccinated people wear masks in the building.

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19 minutes ago, Kanin said:

If Tucker Carlson isn't vaccinated, shouldn't he be wearing a mask? I read that it's Fox News policy that unvaccinated people wear masks in the building.

 

20 hours ago, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

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We've been talking about this for a year and a half and one of the constant refrains has been a "you do you" thing. Don't worry about what other people do. I saw this quote from James Baldwin. 

Quote
Quote

We can disagree and still love each other. Unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.

 

I've said for a year that it seems like gaslighting to be told that we should agree to disagree when it comes to choices that impact other people. I think Americans have a hard time understanding that concept because our culture is so individualistic. 

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14 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t know the answer to the demographics, but I am still puzzled why you understand the reasons that some over 50s you know don’t want to be vaccinated, but the reasons given that some Black people haven’t been vaccinated “don’t fly.”  The logic given by the over 50s is as bad or worse, since they are at higher risk. Again, I personally think both groups should be protecting themselves and others with the vaccine, but that seems like a double standard. 

In the first case I am going by the reasons that certain people are personally saying to me.  In the second case we're talking about theories that are not coming directly from the individuals not being vaxed.

If a black unvaccinated person told me "I'm not getting this vax because I think the government is conspiring to hurt me with it," then I would believe that is their reason.  I still would not agree that it is a rational reason, given that the majority of non-black adults in the US have gotten the vax and not been particularly hurt by it.  Unless there is some serious theory somewhere that the vax targets black people's genetics or something.

As far as the older holdouts I know, they can point to the actual fact that a number of older, unhealthy people have died very shortly after being vaccinated.  They can also point to the fact that they have a personal history of very severe reactions to vaccination.  They can also point to the fact that their statistical risk of having something worse than that happen to them due to Covid is extremely low, given the various ways they are protected from Covid.

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On 7/24/2021 at 4:15 PM, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

I wonder if the FTC complaint has anything to do with it.

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1 hour ago, Hyacinth said:

 

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

But that doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM. The one network that refuses to march in lock step with the State TV must surely be to blame for low vaccination rates🙄. If only they would join in reading the DNC talking points like ALL the others!

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4 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

 

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

I know. I wonder if he IS vaccinated but still spreading doubt. 

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On 7/24/2021 at 12:20 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Immunity wanes over time which is how vaccinated children can get pertussis. However, the root cause of the outbreak is unvaccinated children. 

I think you're entitled to your own opinion but I'm not sure that you're entitled to spread false information. 

You write that it accords with your own education? Do you mean your education or your opinion? Or things you read yourself? 


I mean education related to immunology in my youth. 

 

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5 hours ago, Fritz said:

But that doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM. The one network that refuses to march in lock step with the State TV must surely be to blame for low vaccination rates🙄. If only they would join in reading the DNC talking points like ALL the others!

So was Fox News State TV during the last administration? And where does Newsmax fit in? MSM or not? Is mainstream media just anything that doesn’t have a right or far right bias? Or are all cable news channels not MSM?

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2 hours ago, Pen said:


I mean education related to immunology in my youth. 

 

So how is that you think you know more than actual immunologists who not only studied immunology in their youth, but got a medical degree, did a medical residency, passed board exams, and are practicing professionals?

I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying regarding a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. In the case of the pandemic, it’s not just dangerous, but potentially deadly.

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14 hours ago, freesia said:

I know for sure this is true in some cases. Dh really wants to wait for the full approval for our dd who turned 12 in April. She is very low risk and atm we have low numbers, everyone in the house is vaccinated as is close to 80% of our area so her risk to others is lowish, too. I would probably get her vaccinated but am playing the long game ( dh comes from a non-vaccine family ( he and dsil were not vaccinated as children) who have all gotten the vaccine. He just sees her risk as no more than flu rn and wants to give it more time “in case.”  So, yes, there are folks waiting for full approval. 

If I was making this decision, whether or not she also hit puberty already would be a deciding factor. 

 

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1 hour ago, calbear said:

If I was making this decision, whether or not she also hit puberty already would be a deciding factor. 

Could you clarify what you mean here?  I have a dd turning 12 early in September and have been going back and forth about the vaccine.  Are you saying you would go ahead and vaccinate if puberty was already started?

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17 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we're are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

I think you are right, but I also think it’s impossible.  There are too many people that fear the contact tracing as being nefarious. There’s weird religious stuff mixed up in it, with the mark of the beast stuff.  Cooperating with contact tracers is seen as turning people in to the authorities.  I don’t know why so many people are like that, but I don’t think it’s fixable in the short to medium term.

   I also truly do not think there is anyone that could replace Fauci as someone both sides trust, because there is no such person, and if there was, the minute he or she started saying the pro public health things they would be demonized by the same people that hate Fauci.  A living apple pie wrapped in an American flag would be demonized in that position.  
 

If it were possible for Big Pharma to find a cheap treatment for this, they could always jack the price way up and reap pure profit, like they do with insulin. 

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51 minutes ago, JanOH said:

Could you clarify what you mean here?  I have a dd turning 12 early in September and have been going back and forth about the vaccine.  Are you saying you would go ahead and vaccinate if puberty was already started?

For males, onset of puberty increases the expression of ACE2 receptors. There is a sex difference here. The difference in ACE2 is why males have more severe outcomes than women with Covid...but on balance women have more long Covid because our immune systems react differently.

https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-02942-2/figures/1

 

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3 hours ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative or a scientist that can speak their language would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

The vaccine divide is much more political in the US than the UK. This article gives a breakdown by ethnicity, region, deprivation,  etc. There isn't a breakdown by voting pattern or political leaning  because it's  not very relevant here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

Edited by Laura Corin
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On 7/23/2021 at 2:05 PM, Muttichen1 said:

Oh my goodness. I don't rely on the WHO. I randomly picked that as an example of something I read in conservative media and then backed it up with a primary source that contradicted your "fact check."

No, what you did was to lie about what the WHO said.

Bill

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4 hours ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative or a scientist that can speak their language would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

I really don’t see how finding a new National spokesperson is going to make any difference at all. How is that going to get people to stop believing all of the misinformation and conspiracy theories concerning covid and the vaccines? Maybe if Trump would do it, but that would be very out of character for him. Or perhaps if the Republican Governor of Alabama gets results with her straight talk, she could be taken national.

But research has shown that one of the most effective strategies is having people talk personally with a trusted doctor. And also that the approach needs to be localized which is going on almost everywhere now. Local public health officials are trying everything possible. Here’s a very depressing read about Louisiana.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/us/politics/louisiana-covid-vaccine-misinformation.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Also, many people are resistant to testing and contract testing, just as they are to masking and vaccines. Many people don’t seem to understand or care that good public health work and data relies on public cooperation.

Do you not think that lots of people are not working to develop treatments, whether over the counter or otherwise and also as has been done all along, looking at repurposing drugs? I don’t have any love for big Pharma, but I admit to being confused by what you think is not being done that could be so easily done. Although he doesn’t work in the drug industry, my husband’s PhD is in one of the two common specialties for those in the industry, plus he’s a pharmacist. So we’ve talked quite a bit about this. I’m wondering what we’re missing that you you know when it comes to drugs for treating covid. I honestly don’t mean this in a snarky way, I’m just confused.

Edited by Frances
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There is plenty of accurate non-political, non-woo, scientifically accurate by actual practicing doctors who actually know about epidemiology and virology as well as data collected in the past year to make a decision for getting a vaccine.  Anyone who ignores what is out there is trying to ignore what is out there and/or is actively seeking "alternative" views for some reason I can't understand.  At least in first world countries. 

I have zero, zip, zilch patience for it anymore. 

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Doctors here in NZ are likely to lose their licence if they are peddling covid vaccination misinformation.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/445179/doctors-spreading-misinformation-about-covid-19-may-lose-their-job-medical-council

Free speech here is strong. But there are limitations including negative impacts to public health and safety.  You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. And you can't put out misinformation about the covid vaccine. 

NZ is #8 worldwide for free press (usa is #44): https://rsf.org/en/ranking

However, freedom of expression can be limited in order to protect national security, public order, or public health.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_New_Zealand#Limitations

The NZ government is restricting misinformation on the covid vaccine. 

https://www.cert.govt.nz/individuals/common-threats/covid-19-vaccine-scams/covid-19-vaccine-misinformation/

 

Edited by lewelma
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6 hours ago, Spy Car said:

No, what you did was to lie about what the WHO said.

Bill

Then show me where the WHO recommends the vaccine for kids under 18, because all I said is that they don't. You all can quibble all day that not saying kids shouldn't get it is different than not saying kids should get it. All I said is that they recommend the vaccine for people over 18. Show me where they say anything different -- from the WHO website, not from a fact checker trying to spin it.

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From: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice
 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

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43 minutes ago, Spryte said:

From: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice
 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

You left out the previous paragraph:

"More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.
 
WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy."
 
Yes, they say it's suitable, but they say we need more evidence in whether to recommend it. Are we sure the benefits are worth the risk in kids?
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