Martha in GA Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: Please take a step back and think about how what you've written here sounds very smug. "They haven't chosen to take good care of their bodies." Ugg....who are "they?" And unlike you, right? And @MercyA didn't say you were selfish and did not call you names. Oh, for Pete's sake. I thought I was using correct grammar by saying "their" bodies. How else should I have phrased it? I guess I could have said "some of us"? You are nit-picking. I guess maybe tone is hard to read over the internet. And, MercyA said, 33 minutes ago, Martha in GA said: Or is it all just about you? Umm, that to me indicates she thinks I am being selfish. I'm sorry if you are offended on her behalf that I read that that way. I did not accuse her of calling me names -- I simply said that I don't call other people names. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Hey, @Martha in GA, please don't take our discussion too personally. This is how we roll here. 🙂 We try to be logical and factual and we call each other out. Believe me, I've been called out plenty of times. Iron sharpens iron, you know? I hope it goes without saying, but you have my permission to call me out as a sister in Christ if you think my thinking isn't Biblical. It's hard to read tone on the web, I know, but I'm really trying to be helpful here, not nasty. Edited April 2, 2021 by MercyA 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martha in GA Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, Pawz4me said: Re the Christian part: See the Golden Rule and the second greatest commandment. You don't think these are reasons that Christians should feel some responsibility to get vaccinated to protect others? Asking sincerely. Many of us are immune compromised through absolutely no fault of our own. AI diseases, cancer, other things. We won't get the full level of protection from the vaccine that healthy people will. We just won't. That's why it's so important to reach herd immunity. Before I was diagnosed with RA (and had to go on an immune suppressing medication to help control it) I was quite healthy. One might even say I would have qualified for the phrase "the picture of health." Normal weight, active, never smoked or consumed alcohol or any illegal substance, had eaten a mostly vegetarian, Mediterranean diet for three decades, perfect BP and cholesterol, etc. And yet . . here I am. And it's a story as old as time. Anyone who thinks something can't happen to them because they do all the right things is living in dreamland. Anyone who wants to believe that everybody who is at high risk of Covid is there because of their own fault is living in dreamland. And anyone who thinks those things is having very un-Christ-like thoughts. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, I too have an AI disease, and yes, I take care of my body to the best of my ability. I never intended to imply that everybody who is at high risk of COVID is because they were not taking good care of their bodies. Again, my tone must have not quite come through correctly. That thought was never on my radar. I was simply trying to say that I don't think the virus would be nearly as deadly if our society's health, in general, was better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Martha in GA said: I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, I too have an AI disease, and yes, I take care of my body to the best of my ability. I never intended to imply that everybody who is at high risk of COVID is because they were not taking good care of their bodies. Again, my tone must have not quite come through correctly. That thought was never on my radar. I was simply trying to say that I don't think the virus would be nearly as deadly if our society's health, in general, was better. I understand what you're saying. (But I agree with what @kokotgjust posted -- the pandemic hasn't been more deadly here than in other countries. We've had more cases, and therefore more deaths, because we've done such an awful job controlling spread.) I hope you don't feel piled on. I think we're all just very tired and on edge right now, and I do respect your right to make your own choice regarding vaccination. Edited April 2, 2021 by Pawz4me 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonhawk Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 57 minutes ago, Martha in GA said: ... I don't quite understand the logic that I need to have the vaccine to protect others. If those who wish to be vaccinated are vaccinated, they should have nothing to fear from me. It doesn't sound like anyone is being told that the vaccine is contraindicated for them? I don't want to inject something in my body that, to me, doesn't have the long-term safety record. I believe the body is wonderfully and fearfully made, and I'm hoping my body can fight COVID if I get it. If not, then I'll live (or die) with the consequences. I am vaccinated for all the usual things, as are my children (young adults). I have never had the flu vaccine, and I feel this vaccine would be similar to that since it looks like it will be around for a while. Do you feel everyone should be required to get the flu vaccine? I think the logic has to do with protecting those who *cannot* get the vaccine, even if they want to. Those are the people we protect by getting the vaccine even if we don't want to. It has nothing to do with those "who wish to be vaccinated are vaccinated" having "nothing to fear" from you, it has to do with "those who don't want to get Covid but *cannot* get the vaccine", and they *do* have something to fear from you -- ie, asymptomatic spread. I also agree the body is wonderfully and fearfully made, but I also believe in medications and medical interventions. The vaccine is just another one of those. That God made my body is not something to be seen as a weakness, but I'm given my body to take care of, and I see taking reasonable precautions as part of that, so the vaccine just falls into the category. On a risk-benefit analysis, I am much less likely to get a negative reaction to the vaccine than I would a "negative reaction" to Covid, and while I don't have a 100% chance of getting Covid, I also am not in control of if I get it or how badly I get it or who I give it to. So, either small controlled risk, or leave it to chaos. In balance, the barbell risk stacks heavily on one side. In the past, I have not gotten a flu vaccine, because I had bad reactions (essentially, the flu) after the shots when I was a teenager, and my mom had a similar reaction (hospitalization, near death, etc) back in the 90's. I appreciate others getting the flu vaccine to help protect me. I will probably try getting the flu vaccine this coming year, to see if I still have a negative reaction. All this being said, I do agree you have the choice to not get the vaccine, and none of this is being said to convince you that you SHOULD, as much as explaining the thought process I went through to get here, when my past non-flu-vaccine stance may make others think I'm less likely to. Just now, Martha in GA said: I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, I too have an AI disease, and yes, I take care of my body to the best of my ability. I never intended to imply that everybody who is at high risk of COVID is because they were not taking good care of their bodies. Again, my tone must have not quite come through correctly. That thought was never on my radar. I was simply trying to say that I don't think the virus would be nearly as deadly if our society's health, in general, was better. I can understand this thought. I think someone above already addressed this idea with a link, so probably a more scientifically-backed answer. I know that people who are obese, diabetic, etc., are at higher risk, and so you are just trying to say, there would be less people at higher risk if they didn't have this problem. So, I get you. I don't think, though, that this would have hugely affected the numbers, since it seems that age seems to be one of the larger high-risk medical conditions, and no matter how much you exercise or how well you eat, you aren't going to get any younger. So, it may have had an effect, but we can see the death rates from other countries you may consider "healthier" and I don't think we show a large amount of difference due to this. See others with better sources than me though, lol. Then again, all this is moot, because we do have these societal health issues, we don't have infrastructure in place to address these issues, and so we have to meet the virus where it met us. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 hour ago, kokotg said: Right; as this article makes clear, it isn't the vaccine that will lead to mutations, it's letting the virus spread unchecked. The vaccine is our best chance to stop or slow mutations. From your link: You skipped a whole lot of interesting and thought provoking information in that article to try to try to come up with some sort of "gotcha". I happen to agree with Ho - if you stop the virus from replicating.... you stop the virus from mutating. Isn't that sort of elementary!? But, he also says: Quote "Our study and the new clinical trial data show that the virus is traveling in a direction that is causing it to escape from our current vaccines and therapies that are directed against the viral spike,” says Ho Sooo.... it's already going in a direction that is causing it to escape from our current vaccines? Well so much for the magic jab! But this perspective offers some hope: https://www.pandata.org/how-broad-is-covid-immunity/ Quote The recent downward trends in cases and in hospitalizations across the globe seem to indicate that the virus has probably not mutated in any way that would make it much more dangerous and that a healthy immune system is very capable of dealing with these new forms of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Indeed, patients have been shown to recover naturally in most instances just like they did from the original form of Covid-19. The paucity of confirmed re-infections with the virus, accompanied by clinical symptoms, despite hundreds of millions of infections over the last year, is consistent with a lack of “immune escape”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 As others have said, some will not have a good response to the vaccine. Unfortunately, this is most likely to happen in the same people most susceptible to Covid. Also, no children are able to be vaccinated, and many won' for another year. Some decent number of those kids are immune compromised. In my not very large circle, my best friend's son has an immune deficiency that leaves him susceptible to respiratory viruses that others blow off - regular cold germs land him on breathing treatments and weeks of medication. Covid would be very dangerous for him. My own son has two AI diseases at 8 yrs old, on of which causes brain inflammation if activated. Another friend has a son on immune suppressants for severe ulcerative colitis (in addition to doing a specific carbohydrate diet, herbs, etc). That's 3 kids I know well who are at high risk and all too young to be vaccinated. The ONLY way to protect kids like that is to reach herd immunity. The best way to protect those kids is for those who can be vaccinated, to be vaccinated. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: But this perspective offers some hope: https://www.pandata.org/how-broad-is-covid-immunity/ Your quote is saying that the new variants are about the same or not worse than the original. Um...the original already killed half a million americans and left who knows how many others ill for months on end. That's not especially comforting news, to hear hey, it's fine, just will continue on like this! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 minute ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: You skipped a whole lot of interesting and thought provoking information in that article to try to try to come up with some sort of "gotcha". I happen to agree with Ho - if you stop the virus from replicating.... you stop the virus from mutating. Isn't that sort of elementary!? But, he also says: Sooo.... it's already going in a direction that is causing it to escape from our current vaccines? Well so much for the magic jab! But this perspective offers some hope: https://www.pandata.org/how-broad-is-covid-immunity/ I wasn't looking for a gotcha--you have hardly any posts here, and you didn't state your opinion--just posted an article that talked about how important it was to vaccinate as fast as possible to slow mutations. I....agreed with the article you posted, so I'm not sure how that's a gotcha. The fact that there's concern that the virus might mutate in ways that make the current vaccines less effective isn't really controversial, is it? We've always known that. The current mutations that we're worried about were mostly already circulating before vaccines started to be widely used, so they're certainly not because of vaccines; they're because of uncontained spread. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 I have no idea about what is driving the behavior of the OP's acquaintance, but I did want to share this person's perspective. I haven't 100% decided what I think about this, but it is interesting to think about/consider: Crude and Unethical: Why Boris Johnson was wrong to try and terrify us into submission https://www.thedatapsychologist.com/post/crude-and-unethical-why-boris-johnson-was-wrong-to-try-and-terrify-us-into-submission Quote Fear, as horror author HP Lovecraft once noted (1927), is “the oldest and strongest emotion”. Indeed, a meta-analysis of brain imaging research suggests that fearful stimuli are those most likely to activate the brain’s ‘emotion centre’, the amygdala (Costafreda et al., 2008). Accordingly, it is little surprise that the use of fear in messaging both grabs attention (LoBue & DeLoache, 2008) and motivates behaviour (Witte & Allen, 2000); and likewise, a meta-analysis of 127 papers concluded that fear appeals have a significant impact on attitudes, intentions and behaviours (d=0.29; Tannenbaum et al., 2015). A recent paper found that, even considering perceived risk and political and moral attitudes, the only predictor of behavioural change (e.g., social distancing) was fear of the virus (Harper et al., 2020). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: You skipped a whole lot of interesting and thought provoking information in that article to try to try to come up with some sort of "gotcha". I happen to agree with Ho - if you stop the virus from replicating.... you stop the virus from mutating. Isn't that sort of elementary!? But, he also says: Sooo.... it's already going in a direction that is causing it to escape from our current vaccines? Well so much for the magic jab! But this perspective offers some hope: https://www.pandata.org/how-broad-is-covid-immunity/ The virus mutated in a direction that allowed it to evade antibodies before the vaccines were developed, not in response to the vaccines. The Novavax trial in South Africa showed no difference in the rate of infection in those in the placebo group who had already had the original strain and those who had not — they were equally likely to be infected with the B1351 strain. The vaccine actually provided BETTER immunity to the new strain than having been previously infected, which provided no protection at all. The claim that the new variants are no more dangerous than the original strain is simply not supported by data. The P1 and B1351 strains are significantly more infectious and seem to be hitting much younger people, although (so far) the death rate for those strains do not seem higher. The B117 strain is also more infectious and has been found to be at least 30% more deadly, and some estimates are higher. Look at what is happening in Europe and India and parts of the US if you don't believe these new variants are more dangerous. 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, ktgrok said: Your quote is saying that the new variants are about the same or not worse than the original. Um...the original already killed half a million americans and left who knows how many others ill for months on end. That's not especially comforting news, to hear hey, it's fine, just will continue on like this! I happen to find it very comforting that for a very large number of people their natural immunity will provide protection to not only COVID-19, but also variants/mutations/other strains. 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 12 minutes ago, kokotg said: I wasn't looking for a gotcha- My mistake, and that's good to hear! I still think we read the same article and had different things we took away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said: I'll probably be much less cautious after my 2nd shot. I got the shot because I know that no one around us will try to protect me so I have to do what I can to protect us. There's no use my being a hermit around people who aren't even bothering to get the shot. People who don’t understand how masks work have said throughout this past year, “Hey, if you want to wear your mask to protect yourself, that’s fine. I just don’t feel like I need to protect myself.” And no matter how much you explain that wearing as mask doesn’t protect the wearer, they just don’t get it. Me getting the vaccine means I can finally do something solid and concrete to protect myself, because heaven knows I’m surrounded by a lot of people who will not do anything to protect me. I’ve chafed having to rely on others to protect me and will be very glad I’ll finally be able to protect myself. And I love the added bonus that I’m helping protect others who cannot be vaccinated. It will be such a relief not to have to adjust my trajectory when I’m in a store and turn a corner to see a customer with no mask or a mask with a nose hanging out. I’m always walking very lightly in stores, ready to pivot away as needed. It will be a relief not to have to worry so much about that. Edited April 2, 2021 by Garga 13 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Corraleno said: The claim that the new variants are no more dangerous than the original strain is simply not supported by data. The P1 and B1351 strains are significantly more infectious and seem to be hitting much younger people, although (so far) the death rate for those strains do not seem higher. The B117 strain is also more infectious and has been found to be at least 30% more deadly, and some estimates are higher. Look at what is happening in Europe and India and parts of the US if you don't believe these new variants are more dangerous. Influenzas also have strains that are more infections, cause more serious complications, result in more deaths. My perspective is that this new coronavirus is now endemic and that we're going to have to move forward with it being part of the diseases that humans have to deal with. Edited April 2, 2021 by ChickaDeeDeeDee typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 54 minutes ago, Pawz4me said: I hope you don't feel piled on. I hope this for her, as well. Sometimes I reply to a new-ish poster like I would to a long-timer, and then worry that I sounded too harsh. We are all on edge for sure. This is a good discussion and I hope it continues. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 2 hours ago, kand said: we have new studies this week showing the mRNA vaccines are highly protective against contracting the disease at all, meaning they are also preventing transmission. Do you mind posting a link to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 35 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I happen to find it very comforting that for a very large number of people their natural immunity will provide protection to not only COVID-19, but also variants/mutations/other strains. You find it comforting that the variant that is currently spreading like wildfire through Europe and is about to become the dominant strain in the US is "only" 30% more deadly? Do you find it comforting to know that the 130,000,000 Americans who've already had covid could get it again if the B1351 and P1 strains, which are already circulating in the US, become really widespread here? The models I've seen are predicting another 100K deaths by July, I don't know how anyone could find that comforting. At least they're not predicting another 200K deaths, so... hip hip hooray? 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said: You use very loaded language in your response, e.g. "afraid." I read the OP as being about a person who seems to have a lot of fear. I was only talking about the OP. Please don't impose thread drift on every poster who is trying to answer the OP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, SKL said: Do you mind posting a link to this? here's one: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-vaccine-moderna-pfizer-transmission-disease 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, SKL said: Do you mind posting a link to this? Israeli data on Pfizer showed 94% efficacy against even asymptomatic infection after 2 shots: "The announcement included a key statistic related to an alarming way the virus can spread -- via people who are asymptomatic, who may not even know they're contagious. The Pfizer vaccine is so far 94% effective at preventing this type of infection, Israel's Ministry of Health reports -- encouraging news that the vaccine could help slow silent transmission. And the US results linked by kokotg indicate 80% efficacy against asymptomatic infection after just the first shot: "We clearly showed in our study that if you were at least 14 days out from your first shot, you had 80 percent protection” from infection, says Jeff Burgess, associate dean for research at the Mel and Enid Zuckerman College of Public Health at the University of Arizona in Tucson. The study is part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that the vaccines not only reduce the risk of getting seriously ill with COVID-19, but can prevent catching the virus in the first place." More Israeli data showing that even when vaccinated people do get infected, they had lower viral loads than unvaccinated people. Edited April 2, 2021 by Corraleno 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 Having had the vax is freeing! I am not highly likely to become seriously ill from covid, though I’m over 50 with two autoimmune diseases. It does change how Iive. I can visit my 84 yo mom! I can get my toes done and my eye prescription updated. I am not free to disregard common sense or to not love my neighbor or to ignore requirements imposed by government, my church, or places of business. That’s fine. Our freedom is always limited by the rights and needs of others. 15 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I happen to find it very comforting that for a very large number of people their natural immunity will provide protection to not only COVID-19, but also variants/mutations/other strains. Several posters have linked threads from reputable scientific sources showing that having had covid does not provide immunity to the new, aggressive variants. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 8 hours ago, Martha in GA said: Okay, I didn't mean "party-line" as in political party. I meant the party-line as in this is what the American people are being pushed to believe through what I view as...propaganda (I can't think of a better word, and it doesn't quite convey what I mean...). Also, if you think my "party-line" response was offensive, have you seen the posts that call anyone who doesn't believe like everyone else about the pandemic "anti-intellectual and anti-science" among other things? Of the half a million Americans who have died of COVID, 40% have been over 80 years of age, and another 12% were 75-79 years old. Yes, those people were important people, every one of them, although deaths of older people just after the vaccination were flippantly passed off as just people "who would have died anyway." By the way, I have known people (relatives of people I know, actually) who have died of COVID. It IS real. I think we have a novel virus out there and that has caused greater problems than, let's say, a bad flu year. I think as a society, we are woefully unhealthy, and that has caused additional issues with this virus, both in terms of death and for the long-haul symptoms. Finally, you say the science is settled, and I disagree with you. What exactly do you mean by the science is settled? I'm actually dismayed by the lack of knowledge we have about this virus that has been wreaking havoc for over a year! Why do some people get hit so hard, while others don't? Why do some people become super-spreaders, while others don't pass it on to anyone? Why do some people get gastro-intestinal problems while others only have respiratory problems? If the science were settled, we would know all these things. I agree with you. Possibly the lockdown itself causes some of the unhealthiness to get worse. Less natural vitamin D, perhaps less exercise, less nurturing social interaction, fewer hugs..., more anxiety, more financial problems 8 hours ago, Martha in GA said: I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization). And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns. imo we already have that. Inexpensively and a home option(in theory- it isn’t easy to get at all in US and price is jacked up hugely even if one can get it): Ivermectin - particularly if caught early— plus potentially some additions to that if necessary — Several doctors and groups in various parts of the world have protocols. DrBeen interview with Dr Kory, and John Campbell interview with Dr Lawrie cover this well imo. Both have links to on paper or digital written words materials in the descriptions for people who prefer to read rather than to listen and watch or for those who choose to do both. More expensive and needs hospital afaik, Regeneron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 hour ago, kand said: I personally don’t want to live with things permanently in the current state. I don’t want to have to always take the same degree of precautions, and avoid people outside my household, and watch cities around the world take turns having their healthcare systems become overwhelmed and having bodies pile up and exponentially increasing deaths. We almost miraculously have vaccines that can spare us that fate. I want to spare us that fate Are you thinking Covid 19 is similar in risk to the flu? I didn’t think anyone was still trying to make a case for that, given that there is no possible way to look at what has happened in the world over the past year and reasonably come to that conclusion. I’m suddenly reminded of that story pastors like to tell of the person stranded on their roof with rising flood waters, and one person after another comes by and tries to rescue them in various ways. Each time, the person says, “I have faith. God will save me.” Eventually the person drowns and they stand before God and say, “God! Why didn’t you save me?!” And he says, “I tried. First I sent the person in the boat, then I sent...” you get the idea. For some reason that popped into my head as far as the miraculous effectiveness of these vaccines, and the way the world has worked together to create them to try to save humanity from this, while some people meanwhile refuse to accept, saying that they trust God to take care of them instead. Why is it that you have ultimate complete trust in these things, that there is very little evidence to support, with the exception of Regeneron, yet you think the vaccines with lot of research showing efficacy and safety are unsafe? Why is your burden of evidence requirement insurmountable for the vaccines, but your bar is about an inch high for ivermectin? I’m honestly confused about that. Especially since Brazil, which has used Ivermectin, is having catastrophic deaths and problems with overwhelmed hospitals. 14 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, kand said: I personally don’t want to live with things permanently in the current state. I don’t want to have to always take the same degree of precautions, and avoid people outside my household, and watch cities around the world take turns having their healthcare systems become overwhelmed and having bodies pile up and exponentially increasing deaths. We almost miraculously have vaccines that can spare us that fate. I want to spare us that fate Are you thinking Covid 19 is similar in risk to the flu? I didn’t think anyone was still trying to make a case for that, given that there is no possible way to look at what has happened in the world over the past year and reasonably come to that conclusion. I’m suddenly reminded of that story pastors like to tell of the person stranded on their roof with rising flood waters, and one person after another comes by and tries to rescue them in various ways. Each time, the person says, “I have faith. God will save me.” Eventually the person drowns and they stand before God and say, “God! Why didn’t you save me?!” And he says, “I tried. First I sent the person in the boat, then I sent...” you get the idea. For some reason that popped into my head as far as the miraculous effectiveness of these vaccines, and the way the world has worked together to create them to try to save humanity from this, while some people meanwhile refuse to accept, saying that they trust God to take care of them instead. Why is it that you have ultimate complete trust in these things, that there is very little evidence to support, with the exception of Regeneron, yet you think the vaccines with lot of research showing efficacy and safety are unsafe? Why is your burden of evidence requirement insurmountable for the vaccines, but your bar is about an inch high for ivermectin? I’m honestly confused about that. it is not that I have zero confidence in the vaccines. You do not understand my perspective. I think if people want to use the vaccines that it is quite acceptable for people who want to use them do to so. I am, however, totally against mandates or force or coercion to use them. And I think social media like this can be a form of peer pressure coercion. Such as if people accuse others of being immoral if they do not get it. And I have not personally avoided getting together with relatives who have gotten the vaccines fearing that they are putting out new mutated virus forms. Otoh, I think it was funny when getting together with some people who were already vaccinated and with a time supposed to make it effective already passed, that they were still wearing two masks. Except when they ate. Then no masks. Because I guess the virus can’t transfer during eating process is the logic. I personally find it amusing and fairly illogical ... the idea that danger is so great two masks are still needed most of the time... but no mask at all while eating even if doing eating very slowly. If u don’t perceive any humor or irony that’s fine. Sense of humor and sense of ridiculousness is probably pretty personal. I did think to myself, about the people I was with, and as I wrote to @Resilientabout the friend described in OP that in the event that Vanden Bossche *is* correct (I do not know if he is or is not correct) the still double masking despite supposedly fully vaccinated for an illness with only an ~0.2% infection fatality rate is probably a good thing. Because other than that, to me, it makes little logical sense. I presume that the studies I have read on the vaccines r more or less correct . That without the vaccine there’s been something around 2. Something percent people catch the illness over some x amount of time, versus 1. Something percent with one dose, versus around 0.5 percent with 2 doses and around 14 days after second dose. That’s at least my basic working sense of figures. I am not following it attentively. and early on - around a year ago - I did know people in NYC who got very very sick. Since people caught on to Various protocols to help immunity I do not personally know anyone who has gotten very very sick with it. I had to be in medical facilities for both a family problem and a personal one, and at least wher I was they were basically empty - close to empty - even though rates were being called so high schools etc had to be locked down . To me it seems pretty bogus. That’s just personal again. I will believe it if you tell me I r a nurse and where u r they are still using refrigerator trucks and ice rinks to store bodies. That could be. But my own observation was a big gap between reality and what was on the media. And the people with one exception who I know best who have had it, the illness has been extremely mild, and the symptoms usually no more than a common cold. For example in a large family I know where one person got it and thus all were tested, most did not catch it at all despite close contact, shared bedrooms etc, and those who did it was only mild sniffles. In ordinary circumstances nothing much to even notice. Again, if you tell me you know personally situations still hapoening recently as they had been happening early on, where it spread rapidly through a group and many died, I am willing to believe you. But your experience recently in that case would be way different than mine. Moreover, , while I do believe that the vaccines do bring transmission down from around 2.something percent to around 0.5 percent, and that for those 0.2 or so percent of the people who do catch it (so some small percentage of a small percentage) who would be saved from a severe case or even death that that’s significant, I also know that there are only short term understandings for a new modality (speaking particularly of the mRNA type — but also even really the more traditional ones too since Coronaviruses have tended to have vaccination issues historically). They only have an emergency use authorization, not full study and full approval. Basically people getting them r involved in a big experiment. Imo. People here seem to think that a statement like that means I am in some qanon thing. I had not even heard of it till people on here accused me of that at which point I looked it up to figure out what was meant. Interesting. I have a belief in some permaculture and similar principles. For example that it often is helpful in a novel emergency to run and scatter, so that not everyone is going to the same place, doing the same thing — for example, not everyone rushing to the same spot to try to avoid a tsunami- - only to find that the choice which had seemed good was actually a bad one and thus all get drowned. In contrast to the new vaccines, Ivermectin has a very long time use and safety profile when used properly. I do not include people eating a whole package of their giant size dogs’ heartworm meds or their 2500 horse’s worm and bot medicine or that sort of thing under “used properly”. And I certainly do not include studies that gave known toxic doses of IVM or HCQ as used properly either. I used to try to post articles and so on in the Long Thread when I came to them. There may be some there still from me or others. If not or if too hard to dig back through the Long Thread, I have given some ideas of how to find more information if you are interested. Pierre Kory - (who is a democrat btw afaik if u have a problem accepting anything from conservatives) for example, Paul Marik, Peter McCollough... To me they are persuasive as showing significant benefit with very little risk. You may see it differently. That’s okay. I Value the right of people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, and to decide on their own treatment or prophylaxis plan. Edited April 2, 2021 by Pen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 24 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said: Especially since Brazil, which has used Ivermectin, is having catastrophic deaths and problems with overwhelmed hospitals. According to Kory they were doing well when using IVM, and badly when they stopped. it’s possible he is wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 I don’t know whether it was mentioned yet in tbis thread but the recent data for Pfizer against the South African variant looks good which is a big relief I think. https://www.forbes.com/sites/palashghosh/2021/04/01/pfizer-biontech-vaccine-protects-against-south-african-variant-highly-effective-against-disease-for-six-months-updated-trial-data-shows/?sh=4dcc969b6ff9 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Pen said: it is not that I have zero confidence in the vaccines. You do not understand my perspective. I think if people want to use the vaccines that it is quite acceptable for people who want to use them do to so. I am, however, totally against mandates or force or coercion to use them. And I think social media like this can be a form of peer pressure coercion. Such as if people accuse others of being immoral if they do not get it. And I have not personally avoided getting together with relatives who have gotten the vaccines fearing that they are putting out new mutated virus forms. Otoh, I think it was funny when getting together with some people who were already vaccinated and with a time supposed to make it effective already passed, that they were still wearing two masks. Except when they ate. Then no masks. Because I guess the virus can’t transfer during eating process is the logic. I personally find it amusing and fairly illogical ... the idea that danger is so great two masks are still needed most of the time... but no mask at all while eating even if doing eating very slowly. If u don’t perceive any humor or irony that’s fine. Sense of humor and sense of ridiculousness is probably pretty personal. I did think to myself, about the people I was with, and as I wrote to @Resilientabout the friend described in OP that in the event that Vanden Bossche *is* correct (I do not know if he is or is not correct) the still double masking despite supposedly fully vaccinated for an illness with only an ~0.2% infection fatality rate is probably a good thing. Because other than that, to me, it makes little logical sense. I presume that the studies I have read on the vaccines r more or less correct . That without the vaccine there’s been something around 2. Something percent people catch the illness over some x amount of time, versus 1. Something percent with one dose, versus around 0.5 percent with 2 doses and around 14 days after second dose. That’s at least my basic working sense of figures. I am not following it attentively. and early on - around a year ago - I did know people in NYC who got very very sick. Since people caught on to Various protocols to help immunity I do not personally know anyone who has gotten very very sick with it. I had to be in medical facilities for both a family problem and a personal one, and at least wher I was they were basically empty - close to empty - even though rates were being called so high schools etc had to be locked down . To me it seems pretty bogus. That’s just personal again. I will believe it if you tell me I r a nurse and where u r they are still using refrigerator trucks and ice rinks to store bodies. That could be. But my own observation was a big gap between reality and what was on the media. And the people with one exception who I know best who have had it, the illness has been extremely mild, and the symptoms usually no more than a common cold. For example in a large family I know where one person got it and thus all were tested, most did not catch it at all despite close contact, shared bedrooms etc, and those who did it was only mild sniffles. In ordinary circumstances nothing much to even notice. Again, if you tell me you know personally situations still hapoening recently as they had been happening early on, where it spread rapidly through a group and many died, I am willing to believe you. But your experience recently in that case would be way different than mine. Moreover, , while I do believe that the vaccines do bring transmission down from around 2.something percent to around 0.5 percent, and that for those 0.2 or so percent of the people who do catch it (so some small percentage of a small percentage) who would be saved from a severe case or even death that that’s significant, I also know that there are only short term understandings for a new modality (speaking particularly of the mRNA type — but also even really the more traditional ones too since Coronaviruses have tended to have vaccination issues historically). They only have an emergency use authorization, not full study and full approval. Basically people getting them r involved in a big experiment. Imo. People here seem to think that a statement like that means I am in some qanon thing. I had not even heard of it till people on here accused me of that at which point I looked it up to figure out what was meant. Interesting. I have a belief in some permaculture and similar principles. For example that it often is helpful in a novel emergency to run and scatter, so that not everyone is going to the same place, doing the same thing — for example, not everyone rushing to the same spot to try to avoid a tsunami- - only to find that the choice which had seemed good was actually a bad one and thus all get drowned. In contrast to the new vaccines, Ivermectin has a very long time use and safety profile when used properly. I do not include people eating a whole package of their giant size dogs’ heartworm meds or their 2500 horse’s worm and bot medicine or that sort of thing under “used properly”. And I certainly do not include studies that gave known toxic doses of IVM or HCQ as used properly either. I used to try to post articles and so on in the Long Thread when I came to them. There may be some there still from me or others. If not or if too hard to dig back through the Long Thread, I have given some ideas of how to find more information if you are interested. Pierre Kory - (who is a democrat btw afaik if u have a problem accepting anything from conservatives) for example, Paul Marik, Peter McCollough... To me they are persuasive as showing significant benefit with very little risk. You may see it differently. That’s okay. I Value the right of people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, and to decide on their own treatment or prophylaxis plan. I'd like to respond to a few things here... I don't believe there will ever be federal or state mandates to get the vaccine. But, individual entities might require it, just like some medical facilities and schools already do (not for patients, but for staff) for the flu vaccine, and colleges sometimes require the meningitis vaccine, for example. Also, I suppose some airlines or cruise lines might be require it, at least in the short-term (I hear Qantas already plans to). If you believe social media like this is a form of peer-pressure coercion, you can choose to stay away? I'm not saying you should! (I actually find it helpful to hear different opinions.) But I think most social groups tend to have similar views on at least some things, and if that begins to feel like peer pressure to you, you can always avoid certain threads. This is a subject that is more triggering than regular life stuff, understandably -- for everyone. Because it's not just about the vaccine. It's become wrapped up with politics, religion, a lot of sacrifices, and so much more. And when you mix that in with the general culture of these boards where people seem to enjoy digging in to tough subjects, it can feel like a type of peer pressure even if it's not meant that way. I will soon be fully vaccinated, and I'll be completely comfortable gathering with people, without masks, who are also fully vaccinated. I'll also be comfortable being in larger groups with people who are not vaccinated, as long as regulations are in place. For example, our church plans to open up in May, and although I anticipate that most people there will be vaccinated, there will probably be some who aren't. But I know the church will be cautious, require distancing between families and masks, etc., until the pandemic is under control. I feel sad that you are inwardly laughing at people who are trying their best to be safe, even if they are taking precautions that are unnecessary. You do not know their inner-life: the anxieties they may have, or whatever. They've just come out of a year of getting used to a new routine to be safe and keep others safe. Give them a break. And yes, I've been to restaurants now where we walk in with masks on, and then sit down at our table and remove them. Is this perfect? Of course not, and it's ridiculous to think so. Perfect would mean never eating around other people. But it's about finding a good balance so we can be mostly safe, but still try and get back to some normalcy. I think finding a balance has been a part of this from the get-go. It's pretty much how we do life, really. Your idea that how the pandemic has been portrayed is bogus is something I won't even bother to address, except to say that of course media is going to concentrate on the bigger stories, that's what they do. But one shouldn't go the other extreme and just rely on a very small minority of random experts. You need to look at the general consensus of scientists and experts across the board. (I generally look at the reputable research hospitals around the country to see what their stance is.) And of course, death numbers don't lie. You're lucky if you don't know anyone who has died or suffered greatly from Covid. And you're lucky if your hospitals didn't fill up or run out of equipment. Our metro hospitals reached ICU capacity here at one point, and they had to re-open up an abandoned hospital to allow for more Covid patients. But, pandemics often work that way -- they're more concentrated in pockets. And this one was a bit of a wild card ~ We really didn't know exactly how it would play out. Who knows, someday, we may look back and decide that we over-reacted with all of our lockdowns. But, we do know that the death numbers would have been higher without them, and we know that we tried to do the right thing to help people, with the information that we had. I don't know about medications being used to help Covid, so I can't enter into that discussion much. I will say that I've seen extreme reactions on both sides of this issue. This last part is going to sound preachy, so please feel free to skip. I really don't mean to be preachy, I'm just sharing what I've learned these past years. As a Christian (and I think you are too?), my views have really changed in the past few years on what this means. I used to think that reaching out to others, helping those in need, remembering those who are otherwise neglected, was one of the branches radiating from Christianity. I've come to believe that this is actually the very heart of Christianity. The very essence of Christ is self-sacrificial love. It is going out of your way to love others, or help others. Early on, when Jesus was asked what is the most important commandment, he said to love God, and love your neighbor. Later when he was asked, he summarized it even more succinctly: "For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (If we do that, than we also love God.) We are called to go out of our way to love our neighbor, and to meet them wherever they're at, just like God does for us. I was reading about Jesus' first public miracle again recently, turning water into wine at a wedding. And it blew my mind that it was something so basic and materialistic as wanting to provide wine for the guests because the hosts feared for their own reputation. How weird! But that's what God does. He doesn't inwardly laugh and smirk at us for being so caught up in a silly cultural traditions or current events, but he chooses to meet us there, to help us there, to make us feel valued, knowing that we're just trying to do the best we can with what we know and who we are. What does "loving others" mean regarding people we don't even know or care about, or even disagree with? I think it means to bring worthiness to their lives...making them feel that they are valuable, that their lives and their personhood hold value. EVEN if we disagree with them, or think what they're doing is less than ideal, or believe their problems are a result of their own stupid decisions. It means making an effort to consider and help those who are "the least of these" -- the elderly who might be dying within a year or two anyway, those with chronic health conditions, even ones brought on themselves purely as a result of dumb or selfish decisions, or those who -- out of fear or anxiety -- are making an even bigger deal of something than it actually is...and so much more. It's easy to reach out to and sacrifice for those we understand and agree with; but God calls us to do more than that, to the point where it feels even uncomfortable for us, or even if we think it should be unnecessary. I also think of the parable of the lost sheep, where the shepherd left the entire flock to help the one who was lost. I can translate that to Covid: Most people will be okay, even if they get it. A small percentage will not be okay, and will die. I should help them. 16 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 12 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I happen to find it very comforting that for a very large number of people their natural immunity will provide protection to not only COVID-19, but also variants/mutations/other strains. But....the ones that don't? I mean, half a million americans just so far, did not. Family and friends of mine do not have normal immune systems and they likely will not be able to fight it off. And he's flat out wrong about immunity to new strains - infection with the original strain confers no immunity to at least one of the new strains. But the vaccine does. 12 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: Influenzas also have strains that are more infections, cause more serious complications, result in more deaths. My perspective is that this new coronavirus is now endemic and that we're going to have to move forward with it being part of the diseases that humans have to deal with. And we vaccinate for flu. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, ktgrok said: But....the ones that don't? I mean, half a million americans just so far, did not. Family and friends of mine do not have normal immune systems and they likely will not be able to fight it off. And he's flat out wrong about immunity to new strains - infection with the original strain confers no immunity to at least one of the new strains. But the vaccine does. And we vaccinate for flu. I don't have a "normal" immune system either. I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health. My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol and to skip the vaccine. She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her. As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones. Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems. Hmmm... so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong? What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)? There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything. My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution. We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL. With time and new information my concern level has changed. For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did. Covid and the flu were roughly the same. I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildflowerMom Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 This will sound petty, but I promise I don’t feel pettiness, just sadness because I feel like it’s emphasizing the US above every other nation... I hate hearing 500,000 are dead... 2.5 million are dead. 2.5 million. The dead bodies are important whether they’re buried on US soil or across a border. ☹️ 7 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: I'd like to respond to a few things here... I don't believe there will ever be federal or state mandates to get the vaccine. But, individual entities might require it, just like some medical facilities and schools already do (not for patients, but for staff) for the flu vaccine, and colleges sometimes require the meningitis vaccine, for example. Also, I suppose some airlines or cruise lines might be require it, at least in the short-term (I hear Qantas already plans to). I do not know for sure about this. My understanding is that in some places like Israel it has already become very hard to do much of anything without it. 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: If you believe social media like this is a form of peer-pressure coercion, you can choose to stay away? That’s quite true. Personally I do not find the peer pressure to be a major problem, and have found particularly some PM discussions to be hugely helpful in recent times. There are a few individuals with whom I feel a long connection as we were on together for many years, in a few cases even with connections that moved into irl, but this remains the main form of connection. and though my son is now in public school for high school there are still many things where this is a good place for information still as well, I may return to homeschooling with a new set of something along the lines of Foster to adopt type children And I sometimes have things to say perhaps especially on Learning Challenges that may still help people coming along behind me on the homeschooling journey otoh I am certainly not on here anywhere near as much as I was at certain times in past 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: I'm not saying you should! (I actually find it helpful to hear different opinions.) But I think most social groups tend to have similar views on at least some things, and if that begins to feel like peer pressure to you, you can always avoid certain threads. I am very deliberately giving a different view from the mainstream of WTM on certain threads. That might be to give High Noon as an option for dyslexia reading program. Or it might be to point out that there are other views than the WTM mainstream view with regard to CV19. And sometimes I am also very deliberately supporting people with alternative views. 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: This is a subject that is more triggering than regular life stuff, understandably -- for everyone. Because it's not just about the vaccine. It's become wrapped up with politics, religion, a lot of sacrifices, and so much more. And when you mix that in with the general culture of these boards where people seem to enjoy digging in to tough subjects, it can feel like a type of peer pressure even if it's not meant that way. I will soon be fully vaccinated, and I'll be completely comfortable gathering with people, without masks, who are also fully vaccinated. I'll also be comfortable being in larger groups with people who are not vaccinated, as long as regulations are in place. For example, our church plans to open up in May, and although I anticipate that most people there will be vaccinated, there will probably be some who aren't. But I know the church will be cautious, require distancing between families and masks, etc., until the pandemic is under control. I feel sad that you are inwardly laughing at people who are trying their best to be safe, even if they are taking precautions that are unnecessary. You do not know their inner-life: the anxieties they may have, or whatever. They've just come out of a year of getting used to a new routine to be safe and keep others safe. Give them a break. These are people I know extremely well. And I know they laugh about things I do as well. Laughter can be a way of seeing things more clearly. They aren’t doing it to feel safe afaik particularly- or at least one of couple was not - but rather to “follow the Fauci” rules. Some people wonder how far things would have to be taken for most people to recognize any absurdity. I almost pointed it out aloud, but decided that we all were having a good time and to let it be. I am an “up the down escalator” type person and will probably point it out on a future visit. I recommend trying some comedy: https://youtu.be/sPCv6iCLy9U https://youtu.be/UD_teOTN1gU https://youtu.be/YozQ87b-7MQ 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: And yes, I've been to restaurants now where we walk in with masks on, and then sit down at our table and remove them. Is this perfect? Of course not, and it's ridiculous to think so. Perfect would mean never eating around other people. But it's about finding a good balance so we can be mostly safe, but still try and get back to some normalcy. I think finding a balance has been a part of this from the get-go. It's pretty much how we do life, really. Your idea that how the pandemic has been portrayed is bogus is something I won't even bother to address, except to say that of course media is going to concentrate on the bigger stories, that's what they do. But one shouldn't go the other extreme and just rely on a very small minority of random experts. You need to look at the general consensus of scientists and experts across the board. (I generally look at the reputable research hospitals around the country to see what their stance is.) And of course, death numbers don't lie. You're lucky if you don't know anyone who has died or suffered greatly from Covid. And you're lucky if your hospitals didn't fill up or run out of equipment. Our metro hospitals reached ICU capacity here at one point, and they had to re-open up an abandoned hospital to allow for more Covid patients. But, pandemics often work that way -- they're more concentrated in pockets. And this one was a bit of a wild card ~ We really didn't know exactly how it would play out. In many ways it sounds like you are giving me back my own Arguments from March of 2020. I do not know if you remember but I was in favor of lockdowns and border closings very very early when I thought there was a chance of halting this in its tracks. I have come a long way since then. 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: Who knows, someday, we may look back and decide that we over-reacted with all of our lockdowns. But, we do know that the death numbers would have been higher without them, and we know that we tried to do the right thing to help people, with the information that we had. I don't know about medications being used to help Covid, so I can't enter into that discussion much. I will say that I've seen extreme reactions on both sides of this issue. This last part is going to sound preachy, so please feel free to skip. probably a good warning to make. Yet this is my favorite part of this whole post and in fact this whole thread. we should probably be turning the whole conversation toward the spiritual 57 minutes ago, J-rap said: I really don't mean to be preachy, I'm just sharing what I've learned these past years. As a Christian (and I think you are too?), my views have really changed in the past few years on what this means. I used to think that reaching out to others, helping those in need, remembering those who are otherwise neglected, was one of the branches radiating from Christianity. I've come to believe that this is actually the very heart of Christianity. The very essence of Christ is self-sacrificial love. It is going out of your way to love others, or help others. Early on, when Jesus was asked what is the most important commandment, he said to love God, and love your neighbor. Later when he was asked, he summarized it even more succinctly: "For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (If we do that, than we also love God.) We are called to go out of our way to love our neighbor, and to meet them wherever they're at, just like God does for us. I was reading about Jesus' first public miracle again recently, turning water into wine at a wedding. And it blew my mind that it was something so basic and materialistic as wanting to provide wine for the guests because the hosts feared for their own reputation. How weird! But that's what God does. He doesn't inwardly laugh and smirk at us for being so caught up in a silly cultural traditions or current events, but he chooses to meet us there, to help us there, to make us feel valued, knowing that we're just trying to do the best we can with what we know and who we are. What does "loving others" mean regarding people we don't even know or care about, or even disagree with? I think it means to bring worthiness to their lives...making them feel that they are valuable, that their lives and their personhood hold value. EVEN if we disagree with them, or think what they're doing is less than ideal, or believe their problems are a result of their own stupid decisions. It means making an effort to consider and help those who are "the least of these" -- the elderly who might be dying within a year or two anyway, those with chronic health conditions, even ones brought on themselves purely as a result of dumb or selfish decisions, or those who -- out of fear or anxiety -- are making an even bigger deal of something than it actually is...and so much more. It's easy to reach out to and sacrifice for those we understand and agree with; but God calls us to do more than that, to the point where it feels even uncomfortable for us, or even if we think it should be unnecessary. I also think of the parable of the lost sheep, where the shepherd left the entire flock to help the one who was lost. I can translate that to Covid: Most people will be okay, even if they get it. A small percentage will not be okay, and will die. I should help them. I think that was beautiful! Especially your last paragraph. Yes. I am a Christian, by baptism and basic practice. Although I am not narrow in that as a belief system. I think I do understand —and appreciate!— what you are saying. And I like the “preachy” spiritual part of your post by far the best! Sheep can be lost in many ways. When after being attacked as being or being influenced by Qanon here on WTM and I went and looked that up to know what was being talked about, I found it interesting that there are at least two, probably many more, “sides” or groups trying to “wake each other up” and pretty sure the other is caught up in something dangerous. Or that the others are at least “asleep” and not recognizing what is happening. Quite a few people think we are in Biblical end times and that people are currently self selecting as to which Gate we are choosing to walk through. In different ways, for example some are expecting imminent “rapture”. Others believe there will be a transition very soon to heaven on earth for those who choose the correct “gate” for that. Many believe we are in an end times Good versus Evil Battle. and that sense of being in a critical time is also a reason why many people are so emphatic in these times ... for the Good, a sense of wanting to save as many as possible in a spiritual sense, not just Covid or vaccines as the issue. If you are interested in looking at some different approaches and beliefs about our current times, you might find something like this of interest: I Can’t find good link to what I wanted to share with you - It was the opening film to the Lazarus Initiative - like this, but it won’t play now - https://simonparkes.wixsite.com/home I expect you will find much of this type of thing very strange and probably outside of your current beliefs. And it may be true, or not. More likely, imo, a mixture as people try to reach for the dawning horizon. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), God as I have met God, himself has a very good sense of humor. He does laugh. Especially when I was in my teenage atheistic stage, he laughed at me quite a lot. God said it was lucky for me that his existence did not depend upon my belief in him, because my existence certainly did depend upon his existence and his belief in me. I don’t usually speak publicly (a least outside of Friends Meeting Houses where it is acceptable) about speaking with God or God speaking with me. Yet I think we are at a time when it is mete and right to do so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonhawk Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I don't have a "normal" immune system either. I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health. My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol and to skip the vaccine. She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her. As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones. Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems. Hmmm... so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong? What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)? There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything. My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution. We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL. With time and new information my concern level has changed. For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did. Covid and the flu were roughly the same. I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed. I recommend you do as your doctor says for you, obviously. We are not saying that *everyone* should have the vaccine, but *everyone that can*. It seems you are in the *exceptions that shouldn't for medical reasons*. Everyone else getting the vaccine is doing so in part to protect you; their actions make it safer for you as well, it does directly affect you. Your advice is *specific* advice, not general; if you don't have specific advice to the contrary then the general applies: people aren't trying to "push it on you". Agree on a lot of research being out there. Also agree about a lot of opinions -- but, not all opinions are equal. That is why this board has been more concerned with scientific research and expert opinion from people in their respective fields. If you don't have the time to read every research paper that comes out, or the bckground/education to understand it (and frankly, I think many or most of American people simply don't have the ability to go past the abstracts and understand the actual research, sorry, I'm one of them), then we should listen to the experts. And if a vast majority of experts are saying ABC, with a small minority saying maybeABC and then an even smaller minority saying DFG, why are the DFG people the ones we should, as a society, listen to most? Why is their opinion more valid than 2x or 3x or 4x the number of voices on the other side? And why, after multiple times of this happening when you look at credentials and experience the DFGers are found to be , politely, as less-expert, they are held as equals or superiors? Informing people is not the same as controlling people. Having experts tell people about the importance of beneficial societal actions *is* in order to influence actions, but that is not controlling them. The recommendation to get a vaccine for something that can kill you, or make you very sick, and uses you as a vessel to spread to others and can kill them too, is as reasonable precaution and in the person's interest. Covid deaths doesn't lessen the sadness of non-covid pneumonia, but this is a whataboutism made to deflect and distract from what we can do to save other lives. Are you saying that because more people die from heart attacks we shouldn't care about lung disease? No, of course you're not, we can address different causes of death in different ways based off the tools/knowledge we have, without taking on high levels of risk. ALSO you are ignoring how many people have died to Covid and cherry-picking the deaths to a certain age group that everyone acknowledges to be lower risk, and saying that they are being particularly targeted; but the "controlling" media is not aimed only at them, it is aimed to the population as a whole with the age group as a segment. And, again, this segment affects the whole so it is entirely appropriate for them to be talked to as well. AND, again, this is ignoring the idea of spread, where just because patient A didn't die, they didn't give it to patient B who got it worse, patient C who was assymptomatic, and patient D who died. By giving patient A a vaccine, you potentially stop the spread to BCD and whoever they in turn spread it to. Just because patient A is 20 years old and didn't die doesn't mean that they wouldn't have benefited from the vaccine, or that the society around them wouldn't benefit either. This is a PUBLIC health issue, not a PERSONAL one. It affects us PERSONALLY and we need to make PERSONAL choice to be a part of the solution as best we can, but the solution isn't just for the PERSON, it is also for the PUBLIC. Edited April 2, 2021 by Moonhawk 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I don't have a "normal" immune system either. I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health. My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol and to skip the vaccine. She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her. As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones. Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems. Hmmm... so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong? What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)? There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything. My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution. We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL. With time and new information my concern level has changed. For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did. Covid and the flu were roughly the same. I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed. Then you have done what many of us have said over and over again - you've gone to your own medical doctor for advice on your situation. So yes, you do you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 21 minutes ago, kand said: Can you share where you were looking at this today? Given the near-absence of a flu season this year, this surprises me very much. And related, the precautions for young people are to reduce the spread so we can get people vaccinated and not increase the number of new variants that could escape the vaccine. For my own young people, I don’t want to risk long term effects of Covid in them. At this point, that known risk far outweighs a hypothetical vaccine risk that hasn’t shown to be an issue to this point. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: "Do your own research!" sounds good. It's important that patients consent to their treatment. How exhausting to go through life needing to research everything for ourselves. Think about all of the things in modern life that we rely upon without needing to understand them. How does electricity come to our house? How does a car work? I am probably older than you. I had to pass a test in basic understanding of how a car worked to pass Drivers Ed. I have tried to understand about electricity and wish I understood more. I think many of these basics are far more important to understand than much of what modern schooling consists of. 10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said: It's not possible to research everything that personally affects us. So, "do your own research!" is very selective. Like most people, I suspect you have an inflated opinion of your critical thinking abilities so when you think you are doing your own research, you are actually looking for research that fits your own preconceived opinions. That's normal human behavior. We look for connections, even if there is no connection. We rely on what we witness ourselves. For example, you mention your own observations about the pandemic. I think looking at personal observations is particularly important when what the media says, what the official view is, does not match to reality observed. I do not mean my area versus your area. I mean the official views on why, for example, our local schools were closed were not matching the reality at our local hospitals. I have 6 doctors in my slightly extended family in 3 states currently, and one who has travelled to help out with situation in Europe, who is currently in Poland, but also has spent significant time in Italy, who I keep up with through his parents, and also keep up with what the ones in USA are reporting, as well as some people who are friends or family in other health care roles. Two work at major teaching hospitals for their state or region. The type of place that does get cv19 cases. I am fairly sure you are correct that I am likely to over-value my ability to do research. That is a reason I tell others to do their own. To come to their own decisions. Also I think people value much more that which they have discovered themselves. An even bigger reason to tell people to do their own research is the spiritual awakening reason that was alluded to in my reply to Jrap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm Where are you seeing statistics on pneumonia deaths this year on that link? Covid deaths are indeed very low for people under 18, and that's great. But people under 18 can still have long term problems from covid that we don't really understand yet and people under 18 don't live in adult-free bubbles. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, kokotg said: Where are you seeing statistics on pneumonia deaths this year on that link? Covid deaths are indeed very low for people under 18, and that's great. But people under 18 can still have long term problems from covid that we don't really understand yet and people under 18 don't live in adult-free bubbles. Demographic and Geographic characteristics tab. If you play with the interactive table you get interesting results. The default display shows 2020-2021 If you look by single year, for that age group you will you will see that for 2021, there have been 58 covid deaths and only 1 flu death. 178 of the flu deaths were in 2020 - possibly (likely) predating the pandemic. Edited April 2, 2021 by wathe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, wathe said: Demographic and Geographic characteristics tab. If you play with the interactive table you get interesting results. The default display shows 2020-2021 If you look by single year, for that age group you will you will see that for 2021, there have been 58 covid deaths and only 1 flu death. 178 of the flu deaths were in 2020 - possibly (likely) predating the pandemic. Quoting myself to say that you can also parse by month. The vast, vast majority of the 178 pediatric flu deaths in 2020 were in Jan, Feb, and Mar 2020. As makes sense given the very low flu rates this year . The 2020-2021 default on that CDC table is really misleading. It does make one assume that they mean 2020-2021 flu season -but they don't. It's data for all of 2020 and 2021, which includes a large portion of the 2019 -2020 flu season. Flu has been super low in Canada this year. We've had 66 cases reported in the whole country, compared to 43,097 at the same time last year. That's an almost 1000 fold decrease. Quite a spectacular difference! FLu death data take longer to collect and report, so we don't have those numbers for the 2020-2021 season yet. They-re going to be super low, though. Edited April 2, 2021 by wathe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, kand said: I’m trying to understand this footnote on the pneumonia deaths: [2] Counts of deaths involving pneumonia (J12.0-J18.9) include pneumonia deaths that also involve COVID-19 and exclude pneumonia deaths involving influenza. There are two columns marked with that footnote, the pneumonia column and the pneumonia with Covid column. I’m trying to figure out in light of that footnote what the pneumonia column is indicating. (Though quite honestly, I’m not sure why, other than I like to understand things, because none of this has any bearing on how I feel about protecting my kids from contracting Covid.) It think it's because early in the pandemic the data were really messy, partly because of lack of testing and partly because covid was just so new and poorly understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 45 minutes ago, Moonhawk said: I recommend you do as your doctor says for you, obviously. We are not saying that *everyone* should have the vaccine, but *everyone that can*. It seems you are in the *exceptions that shouldn't for medical reasons*. Everyone else getting the vaccine is doing so in part to protect you; their actions make it safer for you as well, it does directly affect you. Your advice is *specific* advice, not general; if you don't have specific advice to the contrary then the general applies: people aren't trying to "push it on you". If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them. I would not and will not ask them to do that . This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them. I would not and will not ask them to do that . This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef. Why? I will be vaccinated, and so will my family, and none of us are high risk - BUT I hope enough other people get the vaccine to stop the uncontrolled spread of the virus and remove its ability to mutate into a more dangerous form. So heck yes, I would like people to be vaccinated to prevent that from happening because it will protect me, and every other vaccinated person, and also every person who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why would anybody have a beef with that? 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 21 minutes ago, kand said: I’m trying to understand this footnote on the pneumonia deaths: [2] Counts of deaths involving pneumonia (J12.0-J18.9) include pneumonia deaths that also involve COVID-19 and exclude pneumonia deaths involving influenza. There are two columns marked with that footnote, the pneumonia column and the pneumonia with Covid column. I’m trying to figure out in light of that footnote what the pneumonia column is indicating. (Though quite honestly, I’m not sure why, other than I like to understand things, because none of this has any bearing on how I feel about protecting my kids from contracting Covid.) It would be interesting to compare pediatric pneumonia deaths in 2020 with previous years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonhawk Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them. I would not and will not ask them to do that . This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef. I guess I have a beef when people don't want to acknowledge that their decision and actions affect others and society at large. We are not islands, why do we insist to act like we are? I don't know if I have a strong feeling towards WHAT the decision is (though I think there is an better risk-benefit option for a person on a personal level), but more importantly I want people to acknowledge that their choices WILL affect those around them. Not in a "sure, a Butterfly in China..." type of way, but in a real and potentially impactful way that can affect actual lives that you know or that matter to those close to you. Not in a "well I'm being careful so I *could* but I probably *won't*"; just a pure realization that we are only able to control so much, and choosing to put the greater good above our personal wants does not take away our freedoms or agency. eta: your quote makes it sounds like people are SELFISHLY wanting others to get vaccinated not because they care about the other person but only because they care about themselves. Rather, this might be subtle, I think it's that we care about the good of society more than my personal risk. I don't care if my DH gets the vaccine for my sake, but for his sake, and for others who he may come into contact with. Edited April 2, 2021 by Moonhawk 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, regentrude said: Why? I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others. If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid. For those who would not require by law, I'm only annoyed with those that would claim others are "selfish" for not choosing to do something that they think protects them/others. For people who get the vaccine because they want it, and they others to get it, and it makes them feel like life is safer, I feel no animosity. Seems very golden-rule-ish to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said: I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others. If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid. Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. Edited April 2, 2021 by regentrude 14 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Quote I Can’t find good link to what I wanted to share with you - It was the opening film to the Lazarus Initiative - like this, but it won’t play now - https://simonparkes.wixsite.com/home I expect you will find much of this type of thing very strange and probably outside of your current beliefs. And it may be true, or not. More likely, imo, a mixture as people try to reach for the dawning horizon. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), I know better than to ever click on one of Pen’s links, but for those who don’t, just know that Simon Parkes, in addition to claiming that his “real mother” is a nine foot tall green space alien with eight fingers and that he himself fathered an alien baby named Zarka, is Q-anon related. With all the bonkers claims that go along with it (if the space alien stuff didn’t clue you in). Pen, you need help. Edited April 2, 2021 by bibiche 1 3 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, kand said: I have an issue with people who could get the vaccine, but choose not to, yet are counting on the current acute phase of the pandemic being ended by everyone else getting the vaccine. I can understand that and it hits on a major issue - not everyone agrees on whether or not covid-19 warrants our current response. Hard to agree on solutions when people don't agree on what the problem is.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickaDeeDeeDee Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, regentrude said: Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health. Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be.... really hard. If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited. I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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