how would you handle this?

[Ausmumof3]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, that was definitely me. And I had to figure out structures for how to organize my life as an adult. And while that was fine, I would like to communicate some of the things I've learned to my kids. 

 

I guess I don't necessarily want to control them. I just want to parent them as best I can. But at least according to my experience with my little sister, they are really not full grown at age 13 or 14 or 15... they just think they are. 

It’s not ridiculously controlling because your dd is eight.  A tonne depends on the way you handle it too.  If a door is open and the rooms a mess I will comment.  If I’m vacuuming I might ask if the floors clean so I can run a vacuum over.  As far as the original post goes, cat pee is definitely where I’d draw the line.  But I’d probably deal with the cat rather than the teen.  I’m having a current discussion with my almost teen about her chickens for similar reasons.  But cat pee aside a few clothes on the floor won’t kill anyone. I feel bad saying it because I can see you are trying to see the bigger picture ahead of time and plan for it but honestly it probably won’t make a lot of sense till you get there, and it’s possible that your kids will already be good at keeping their space tidy so it will be a non issue.  You might be borrowing trouble ahead of time iykwim?  The one thing that I do think is important when you’re getting advice about raising teens is to have a look at the kind of relationship the person giving the advice has with their own teens.  I realise that’s probably hard right now with pandemics limiting interaction.

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Of course they're not fully grown at 13 or 14 or 15.  But you have to decide:  do I want to have a relationship with my teens where I am constantly guiding and motivating them and controlling what they do, or do I want to have a relationship with them where they talk to me?

By and large, you cannot have both.  If you want to have a relationship where they come to you with hard stuff, you have to treat them as equals, even if they aren't fully cooked yet.  Because they are growing into fully cookedness, and they are hurt and offended if you do not treat them, if not necessarily as equals, as people who are far, far more your equal than they were at 10 and who are people with autonomy, and in order for them to learn to motivate themselves, you have to let them DO it, even if they don't do what you want them to do.  

If you want relationship, you have to cede control.  

Yes, but as an equal, I can expect the consideration toward me that I extend to them. I don't expect them to keep their room the way I want it. But I do want a certain level of tidiness. Out of respect for me, they hit my (very low) minimum. Which is clothes picked up, general straightening once a week, shoes and coats put away. Floor cleared. Believe me, there's still a level of mess that I turn a blind eye to. There is a huge grey area between spotless and totally trashed. That's where my kids live. 

I really think it all depends on how you approach it.

I will never pick a clean room over a relationship with a kid. But it's a false dichotomy to say that it's always an either or situation.

 

 

 

 

It seems that many are saying that teens should never ever be asked to clean their rooms and to do so is unreasonable. There's a big range of what's good parenting and so many factors that play into what works for each family. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes, but as an equal, I can expect the consideration toward me that I extend to them. I don't expect them to keep their room the way I want it. But I do want a certain level of tidiness. Out of respect for me, they hit my (very low) minimum. Which is clothes picked up, general straightening once a week, shoes and coats put away. Floor cleared. Believe me, there's still a level of mess that I turn a blind eye to. There is a huge grey area between spotless and totally trashed. That's where my kids live. 

I really think it all depends on how you approach it.

I will never pick a clean room over a relationship with a kid. But it's a false dichotomy to say that it's always an either or situation.

 

 

 

 

It seems that many are saying that teens should never ever be asked to clean their rooms and to do so is unreasonable. There's a big range of what's good parenting and so many factors that play into what works for each family. 

Yeah, I'm not saying the dichotomy is clean room or relationship.  I'm using clean room as a proxy for control.  With teens, you have to give them some areas of their lives that they alone are responsible for.  Where that line in varies by family and even by kid.  

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Keeping a tidy home does not require years and years of training.

That's nice for you. It's hard for me. I require structures for it, and that's because my executive functioning is really not perfect. 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Of course they're not fully grown at 13 or 14 or 15.  But you have to decide:  do I want to have a relationship with my teens where I am constantly guiding and motivating them and controlling what they do, or do I want to have a relationship with them where they talk to me?

By and large, you cannot have both.  If you want to have a relationship where they come to you with hard stuff, you have to treat them as equals, even if they aren't fully cooked yet.  Because they are growing into fully cookedness, and they are hurt and offended if you do not treat them, if not necessarily as equals, as people who are far, far more your equal than they were at 10 and who are people with autonomy, and in order for them to learn to motivate themselves, you have to let them DO it, even if they don't do what you want them to do.  

If you want relationship, you have to cede control.  

I doubt very many people on this thread had their parents treat them as EQUALS when they were teens. And I'm sure some of us on here have a good relationship with their parents and some do not. 

There's a crucial distinction about whether you treat them with respect or not, and whether you take their input seriously. But as equals? No. Not quite. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I doubt very many people on this thread had their parents treat them as EQUALS when they were teens. And I'm sure some of us on here have a good relationship with their parents and some do not. 

There's a crucial distinction about whether you treat them with respect or not, and whether you take their input seriously. But as equals? No. Not quite. 

I agree, not quite equals yet.  But far more your equal than they were at ten.  

I was really surprised, genuinely, how organically and naturally but REALLY dramatically my parenting shifted around age 12.  I feel like I did majorly intensive, hard core, hours and hours of hands on parenting up through about age ten or so, but by 12, it just doesn't feel at all the same.  They're not my equals, but they are in some ways, and it's much more of a roommate relationship than the kind of parenting relationship we had when they were young.  I mean, world's crappiest roommates, that I have to drive places and who eat all of my food, and who I nag about personal hygiene and who I coach through emotional crises, but it's just SO different than it was when they were younger.  I loved them as younger children, but I ENJOY them as teens, and they are responsible for almost all areas of their lives, though with some guidance.  

[annandatje]

Has daughter been screened for ADD?  My son, who was disgustingly messy, was diagnosed and medicated for ADD at age 31.  Now his apartment is neat and tidy and stays that way.  It can indeed make a world of difference.

As for how I handled it when he lived at home, I wanted to be happy, so I had to let it go.  However, I insisted he keep his bedroom door closed, not bring his messiness into common living areas and not do anything that would permanently devalue my property.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

I agree, not quite equals yet.  But far more your equal than they were at ten.  

I was really surprised, genuinely, how organically and naturally but REALLY dramatically my parenting shifted around age 12.  I feel like I did majorly intensive, hard core, hours and hours of hands on parenting up through about age ten or so, but by 12, it just doesn't feel at all the same.  They're not my equals, but they are in some ways, and it's much more of a roommate relationship than the kind of parenting relationship we had when they were young.  I mean, world's crappiest roommates, that I have to drive places and who eat all of my food, and who I nag about personal hygiene and who I coach through emotional crises, but it's just SO different than it was when they were younger.  I loved them as younger children, but I ENJOY them as teens, and they are responsible for almost all areas of their lives, though with some guidance.  

I do have some sense for what it feels like living with a teen, given that I've hosted a 15 year old for a month 😉 . I know it's very different. 

And you know what we did with that teen for most of the summer? We spent time with her and listened to her and fed her... and also made her do a LOT of academic work, because she needed it. And she grumbled and hated it and was pouty but did it, because that was the requirement.

And then she got a great grade in calculus in high school, and a great SAT score, and a great grade in calculus in college, and she was really, really, really grateful. She still sends me presents referring to "Laggy the snail," who assisted us with our calculus word problems 😉 . 

[Not_a_Number]

Now, I'll note that when my sister visited and has to do SAT prep, we did have her buy-in. She wanted to do well on the SAT. She wanted to apply to US colleges. She wanted to understand her math. None of it would have worked if she simply didn't care. 

But she certainly didn't have the EF to do it herself day to day without the structures we provided. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Indigo Blue said:

I remember that! She had a different way of thinking about things and was blunt and to the point. I had mixed feelings about some things she would say, but I often found her posts thought -provoking. I can’t think of her username. Oh.....minniewannabe!

Hah. Blunt and to the point is something I can respect sometimes 😉 . People are often a little too unwilling to call a spade a spade. 

[Not_a_Number]

44 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

This. 

I do pay attention to that, yes 😛 . As far as I can tell, some of the people advocating for rules have good relationships with their kids, and some of the people advocating total lack of rules except for no food have good relationships with their kids. And some of each have bad relationships with their kids 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 1, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do have some sense for what it feels like living with a teen, given that I've hosted a 15 year old for a month 😉 . I know it's very different. 

And you know what we did with that teen for most of the summer? We spent time with her and listened to her and fed her... and also made her do a LOT of academic work, because she needed it. And she grumbled and hated it and was pouty but did it, because that was the requirement.

And then she got a great grade in calculus in high school, and a great SAT score, and a great grade in calculus in college, and she was really, really, really grateful. She still sends me presents referring to "Laggy the snail," who assisted us with our calculus word problems 😉 . 

For me that's very different. We insisted our children did their school work,  sat up late when they needed our support to get that essay done, cancelled outings when they had run out of time for assignments. But then they slunk off into their own spaces at the end of the day.

FWIW, neither learned to cook at home either,  but they are now good cooks. I allowed them to live as they pleased when the long-term consequences weren't dire.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

For me that's very different. We insisted our children did their school work,  sat up late when they needed our support to get that essay done, cancelled outings when they had run out of time for assignments. But then they slunk off into their own spaces at the end of the day.

FWIW, neither learned to cook at home either,  but they are now good cooks. I allowed them to live as they pleased when the long-term consequences weren't dire.

Yeah, that's how my husband's parents were. Academics weren't optional. Cleaning up the house was.

And now he's a terrible, terrible slob. It's very hard to get him to pick up after himself, and it's a constant source of friction in the family. And that's because his executive functioning is also not perfect and he never learned any workarounds. 

We've been making do. But I don't want the same thing for my kids. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I don’t think you agree with me either, which is ok, but I’ve successfully raised two fine men any mom would be proud of. I don’t think you necessarily need to have raised teens to be qualified to have opinions and intelligent discussion.

Great. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I don’t think you agree with me either, which is ok, but I’ve successfully raised two fine men any mom would be proud of. I don’t think you necessarily need to have raised teens to be qualified to have opinions and intelligent discussion.

You'd think that looking at people's range of experiences before one has teens is a good idea. I love hearing about other people's approaches and learn a LOT. 

What I don't appreciate is when my perspective gets summarily dismissed. Especially when there are other people who actually DO have teens with similar perspectives on the thread. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

 I grew up in with what is called a joint family, grandparents living with us. I never thought of them as separate, they were part of my nuclear family which included parents and brother. We lived in a small house. There were different living spaces like a verandah, an inner courtyard/garden, a terrace upstairs, but the entire house was shared. Even the bathrooms were shared. The house had to be swept 2 times a day not because we were fastidiously clean but because the doors and windows were always opened in the morning, closed before evening and dust always came in. So you had to sweep in the morning and evening, it was a chore someone did. There were bedrooms that was only used for sleeping and they were small. My own personal space was a cot, not a room shared with my brother till I left home. It was not uncommon for siblings of different gender to share a room where I come from. In fact, if I had a sister we would have shared a cot. We did not have closets, but wardrobes and it was one each for a person so it was not huge.  DH grew up that way.

I got used to cleaning. It was how I was raised, that we all contributed to the house to keep it tidy for otherwise it would be unlivable. All cleaned, grandfather, dad and brother included. Not just womenfolk. 

We now live in a little less than 3000 sq feet house, which is gargantuan for the 4 of us (DH, son, daughter and me). Though we also have inlaws and parents live with us for months, it is mostly just the 4 of us. DS and DD have their own rooms. I consider it a privilege and a blessing as I come from a country where entire families live in one room, sleep, cook, live in one room. Maintaining this house is what we do, all of us. While we all have our separate spaces, I am of the opinion that since we all live in the house, for it to be harmonious minimum standards must be kept and that includes cleaning. Not eat off the floor cleaning, but clothes hung up, not put on the floor. I am ok with clothes rolled and not folded. But they must be. Heck, I do not know how to properly fold a fitted sheet, I just fold/roll it. 

I grew up sweeping several times a day, sharing spaces and it taught me to value what I have and also contribute to chores as being part of a family. The house belongs to everyone. My kids are welcome to DH and my room always, we watch movies there, eat there sometimes especially during the snow storm. Kids rooms are theirs, but when cousins come they share.

We have cleanliness standards for the whole house and that includes all rooms. We respect our kids privacy, but having their own room is a privilege and not a right to me. So too DH and our room. Each of us is not owed a room of our own, including DH and I, so we do everything we can as a family to keep all our rooms reasonably clean and tidy.

This was beautiful to read.  Thank you.

[fairfarmhand]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You'd think that looking at people's range of experiences before one has teens is a good idea. I love hearing about other people's approaches and learn a LOT. 

What I don't appreciate is when my perspective gets summarily dismissed. Especially when there are other people who actually DO have teens with similar perspectives on the thread. 

Well...you actually do have personal perspective in that at one point you WERE a teen. And you know what you don't want to do. (Chide your kids in a mean, hateful way) What you're trying to get at, I think, is "Where is the middle ground between tidiness being a horrid source of conflict and close the door because teen rooms are off limits to parents and mom and dad are not entitled to have any say in its status." I think you've seen on this thread there is a wide range here. You get to pick what goes in your house, and as long as you're staying connected to your kids, it's likely that your choice will work well. 

[Melissa in Australia]

I just told my teen time to vaccume your room. They would go off and vaccume, they would tidy up as they did. 

Mind you, I had mostly boys, they had minimal clothes, 4 pairs shorts, 4 short sleeve tops, 2 pants, 4 long sleeve tops,. If they didn't put clothes in the wash I didn't wash them. Worked fine. 

Mty Dd, is different. She is currantly about to marry and leave home, so she is making stuff for the wedding, collecting items she will need for her new adventure, studying full time and sorting her childhood belongings all in the smallest bedroom in the house. It is organised chaos. But it is a room in transition. It will all be over in just 3 short months

Edited March 1, 2021 by Melissa in Australia
The phone keeps changing the words

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Well...you actually do have personal perspective in that at one point you WERE a teen. And you know what you don't want to do. (Chide your kids in a mean, hateful way) What you're trying to get at, I think, is "Where is the middle ground between tidiness being a horrid source of conflict and close the door because teen rooms are off limits to parents and mom and dad are not entitled to have any say in its status." I think you've seen on this thread there is a wide range here. You get to pick what goes in your house, and as long as you're staying connected to your kids, it's likely that your choice will work well. 

Yes. I'm really appreciating seeing the range of options. For one thing, it's useful to see that even people with rules have somewhat relaxed standards compared to what I do with my kids, who are little. I had no standards for my sister at all when she visited, but she also didn't have much STUFF. I did wind up asking her to help out around the house, because she was raised just like me and simply had no idea what was appropriate and respectful behavior as a family member staying with someone. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

You've erroneously equated picking up a bedroom with being a 'functional adult.'   As if those of us who aren't requiring checklists and giving gold stars and rewards for cleanliness for our teenagers are somehow allowing our children to become lumps on a log. Or a 'slob' as you call your husband.   Yet, you haven't even approached the tween years.  

I haven't equated it. I've said that it was part of what I wanted to communicate to my kids, because it was something I had trouble with. 

 

Quote

Just because a kid cleans his room does NOT mean he respects you one little bit.

That's something we can agree on. Of course, I never actually said anything of the sort. 

 

Quote

It also doesn't mean he'll give a rat's a*s about cleanliness in his own home.  And trust me, if he can't load a dishwasher or spray a can of Lysol on a countertop and wipe it down, he needs to see a professional for EF issues, ADD, or whatever else is going on.  

I think you should talk to @Dreamergal about that. In fact, if you have no experience cleaning up, you may have trouble prioritizing it enough or finding time for it. My sister currently has a roommate like that in college. He tried washing his fruit with chemical cleaners because he has THAT little experience. (I believe he's from the same country as Dreamergal, if I'm not remembering incorrectly.) 

Anyway, I wouldn't have a hideous power struggle about a teen's room. If there was really no way to communicate what I wanted without a power struggle, I'd give up, I'm sure. I just wouldn't give up before I tried other stuff. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Why do people think their kid picking up their room equals parental respect?   What in the world?    

It has been said repeatedly but I will say it again.  Because some parents really really want their home neat and clean.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

You have articulated very well what my goal is. I have met some brilliant people, both men and women very good in their jobs but unable to do the bare minimum when it comes to the house. It made it very hard for me to live with roommates who never knew how to do it and always had it done for them. So even though they were considerate people generally, it never occurred to them to load the dishwasher if the sink was full or empty the trashcan or if they did, put the next bag in or load the toilet paper or sweep the floor and clean the stovetop after it was their turn to cook. We were all graduate students, all were tired but others messy habits made it impossible for me to live there. I hated coming every morning to a skin filled with dishes, a dirty kitchen. They really were good people, but these were messes they could live with and I was the kill joy.  How many times can you remind people to load the dishwasher ? take out the trash ? We had charts, meetings, nothing made a difference. I did it myself if I wanted a certain standard and was resentful and hated feeling that way. I absolutely knew what I could not live with.

Now imagine that being your own child who is now a young adult.  It is very frustrating and upsetting.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I’m NOT implying this about anyone here, but plenty of people have raised teens who probably pretty much did a miserable job. Just because you did it doesn’t mean you were necessarily good at it. 

Like my mom, lol. I don't want her perspective on raising teens, thank_you_very_much 😛 . Especially since I've already had to half raise one of her teens 😛 . 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Indigo Blue said:

I’ve had to be very aware of .....not emulating. I think I pulled it off. Not perfect, but I’d call it a success.

I'm glad it's possible! I do occasionally hear my mom when I speak, and then I'm pretty horrified 😕. It's definitely the opposite of what I want. 

[Ausmumof3]

53 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do have some sense for what it feels like living with a teen, given that I've hosted a 15 year old for a month 😉 . I know it's very different. 

And you know what we did with that teen for most of the summer? We spent time with her and listened to her and fed her... and also made her do a LOT of academic work, because she needed it. And she grumbled and hated it and was pouty but did it, because that was the requirement.

And then she got a great grade in calculus in high school, and a great SAT score, and a great grade in calculus in college, and she was really, really, really grateful. She still sends me presents referring to "Laggy the snail," who assisted us with our calculus word problems 😉 . 

Here’s another thing and I’m not saying your absolutely wrong but you know how so many parents find their kids behave differently for another teacher or coach than for the parent?  Sometimes the relationship is different between a parent and their own kid versus another adult and another teen.  We hosted a teen for while when we weren’t much more than teens ourselves (and we were in way over our head).  I don’t know exactly what the difference is but there is a difference between relating to your own teen and relating to other people’s teens.  Theres some parenting guru here that people love and he talks about the different relationships that become important at different times - in the early years it’s mum in the five to tens it’s dad and then in the teens it’s external mentors.  Of course all the relationships are important all the time but the focus changes. This reflects the developmental stage where the teen needs to begin separating somewhat from the parents.  There’s an interim stage where they still need adult guidance and mentorship but also need the chance to experience the world for themselves and make their own mistakes.

I know for myself as a teen who was way younger than my siblings staying at their houses was different to living at home.  I was definitely more mindful of being respectful and tidy.  And there wasn’t that vaguely adversarial aspect of needing to assert control over my own life.  And I was a long way from being a rebellious teen. 

[TexasProud]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It has been said repeatedly but I will say it again.  Because some parents really really want their home neat and clean.  

I could care less. There are so many things much more important than a clean house or room.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Here’s another thing and I’m not saying your absolutely wrong but you know how so many parents find their kids behave differently for another teacher or coach than for the parent?  Sometimes the relationship is different between a parent and their own kid versus another adult and another teen.  We hosted a teen for while when we weren’t much more than teens ourselves (and we were in way over our head).  I don’t know exactly what the difference is but there is a difference between relating to your own teen and relating to other people’s teens.  Theres some parenting guru here that people love and he talks about the different relationships that become important at different times - in the early years it’s mum in the five to tens it’s dad and then in the teens it’s external mentors.  Of course all the relationships are important all the time but the focus changes. This reflects the developmental stage where the teen needs to begin separating somewhat from the parents.  There’s an interim stage where they still need adult guidance and mentorship but also need the chance to experience the world for themselves and make their own mistakes.

I know for myself as a teen who was way younger than my siblings staying at their houses was different to living at home.  I was definitely more mindful of being respectful and tidy.  And there wasn’t that vaguely adversarial aspect of needing to assert control over my own life.  And I was a long way from being a rebellious teen. 

No, I totally get it. I'm sure that did help with my sister. The emotional dynamics are different, I agree. 

[hjffkj]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe there is no 'root to get to'.  Maybe it is just a preference and the way the parent wants their house to run.  

I was specifically asking about posters who said they can't function in mess.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, hjffkj said:

I was specifically asking about posters who said they can't function in mess.

I can function in mess but I don't like it and it irritates me. Me being more irritable is not really a win for anyone 😉 . 

Plus, just about everyone you're going to live with is going to have some opinions and requirements you think are silly. I don't think it's the worst thing ever to have some practice negotiating those boundaries. (And when you share a bedroom with a partner, you aren't necessarily going to have "your own space," either.) 

[Not_a_Number]

OK, all, I'm enjoying sparring with you but I'm supposed to be working 😉 . I'm sure I'll come back tomorrow... 

[Soror]

In these discussions it seems people forget that there are many ways to raise kids. Many ways to do it right, many ways to screw it up. It is more about the relationship than anything else and what works for one family doesn't work for another. I had an aha moment this week after this rough year. I realized that of course there are things we lack as parents but there are other areas we have excelled. No parent is perfect. No parent has everything figured out. Everyone makes mistakes.

I don't feel the need to justify how we do things to other people. The OP can take what works for her and leave the rest. There is nuance that doesn't come across in forum posts. People aren't here in our families. I expect my kids to keep reasonably clean rooms. Does that mean I nag them or don't let them have any privacy. Not in the least. My teens have their doors shut 99% of the time and I can't remember the last time I asked them to clean their rooms. My nearly 14 yo cleans her room every weekend of her own volition. My son does his sporadically. Neither keep them as clean as my personal preference but, meh, good enough. At this point, it is not something I even mention, I don't have to. If there started to be an issue there would be some brainstorming to figure out how to fix it in a way that agrees with both of us. 

[Clemsondana]

This conversation has been fascinating everybody is so emphatic.  I have a teen and a tween.  We don't do clean-up in the same way that we did when they were little.  But, I periodically find a block of time and insist that everybody deal with the things that have accumulated in common spaces.  I also insist on periodic dusting and vacuuming of their bedrooms.  They both have more clutter than I would prefer, as does spouse.  I figure that I need to just deal with that.  But, not dusting and vacuuming is an allergy problem and I'm only willing to suffer so much before it just seems disrespectful for them not to deal with it.  And, in order to do that, they have to at least stack things.  

I know that I can shut doors, but it's not like they have separate HVAC systems.  And, at one point mom got ill about something and insisted that I keep my door shut and it felt really hateful so I don't do that.  I mean, I'd probably give them the option of cleaning to a certain level or keeping their door shut, but it's never come to that because of the vacuuming.  They are starting to realize that they feel better when things are clean, and one now dusts and vacuums without prompting.  The keep clutter on shelves, dressers, desks, etc but floors are mostly clear.  

As with most things, I would let it go before I let it destroy a relationship.  But, most things aren't at that point most of the time.  I mean, relationships are more important than academics, manners, hygeine, and learning life skills but unless there's an actual thought that negotiating a way through learning any of those is going to cause relationship implosion, I try to teach them the best that I can and have reasonable standards.  And I have an awareness of the rest of their life - it's not like I'm standing there saying 'Hey, the SAT/your first ball game/term paper is due tomorrow, but your room is a mess so get busy!'.  It's more like I know they have some downtime coming up and say "Dude/Babe, your room is getting to be a bit much...do you think you could beat back the clutter and get it vaccumed sometime this weekend so that I don't have to start a benedryl drip?' and they roll their eyes at their ridiculous mom and then do it, and if they forget I have a dramatic coughing fit outside their room... 

On occasion with one, I have said something like 'You're asking me to do 2 hrs of driving today to take you places...I can cut off one trip and take the time to clean y our room for you, or you can do it before we head out'.  I don't do this often, but it's part of an ongoing conversation about how we all work together, sometimes doing things that don't really benefit us, to keep the family going.  

[Garga]

Oh my! This thread got weird.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat. There’s more than one way to raise a teen. Every family has their own sets of standards/values, etc.

You can insist on a clean room and as long as you work to make sure the relationship is loving and stable, and you don’t shame them into cleaning the room that’s ok! But if insisting on the clean room messes with the relationship, then back off. It’s not the hill to die on.

There is no one right way to handle a teenager’s room. There are probably 100 right ways. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Garga

[hjffkj]

11 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

For me, the minimum standard is the kitchen must be clean in the morning. Not every single morning. If someone has a late night snack after the dishwasher is loaded I would not begrudge them, but I require that it be put in the sink minimum. Not put on the counter right next to the sink. 

People love to cook, but hate to clean. Well, I hate to clean and love to cook too. So my rule is if you want to cook in my kitchen you will minimum put away the spices and the things used in cooking. Others will load the dishwasher and clean the counter, but I have people who will not even put the lid back on the spices they took out, use multiple pots, mixing bowls , all piled on the counter, spills on the stovetop and be outraged if I say anything and consider it ungrateful because they cooked. 🙄 I then politely say, I can cook very well thank you so I will do it next time. I don't want to clean a mess and feel resentful. 

Food spills not cleaned after eating, food under the table, clothes on the floor, amazon boxes unopened piling up. All these are some of them. 

 I come from a country where people will throw the household garbage right outside the dustbin on the street (the city collected from the dustbin when I was growing up). It would take them a few steps to do that. It made the street dirty, those people were not very concerned about cleanliness anyway. 

Most people I know who cared about cleanliness swept the street in front of their house in the early morning and evening, sprinkled it with water and made designs like these out of rice flour. It is made with dots and called rangoli. 

On festive occasions it can be as elaborate as this.

Our streets were not swept by the city, but each person took care of the square in front of their home. I used to walk on streets filled with designs like this every day and everyone did their part so the whole street looked tidy and even pretty.

Something like this.

In my country of origin, if we each did not take care of our property and that included  the portion of the street right outside our gate our front door , the whole neighborhood would turn messy in an instant. So it took all of us to keep the street clean, the whole neighborhood. Each of us throwing the garbage in the dustbin, not on the street. The places where people did not pay attention was easily visible. 

The kitchen cleaned after every meal is my bare minimum and we do it as a family almost every time.  

Bedrooms are a different beast for me. I LOVE waking up to an orderly room so that is why I keep mine looking nice.  I am the type of person who does get stressed in mess and I work really hard on that.  My solution for my kids room is I just don't go in them.  They put their clothes away, they bring their dirty clothes downstairs for me to clean and fold, and if they want cuddles at night they have to do it before they enter their bedrooms for the night or clean their room so I can enter without getting overstimulated.  My bare minimum for their rooms is a smell can not be coming from it.  If that happens, they have to clean the ENTIRE room to ensure they got whatever was creating the smell. It is respectful to keep shared spaces in order and I smell wafting into shared space isn't respectful.  

Those pictures are beautiful btw!

[Ausmumof3]

21 minutes ago, Garga said:

Oh my! This thread got weird.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat. There’s more than one way to raise a teen. Every family has their own sets of standards/values, etc.

You can insist on a clean room and as long as you work to make sure the relationship is loving and stable, and you don’t shame them into cleaning the room that’s ok! But if insisting on the clean room messes with the relationship, then back off. It’s not the hill to die on.

There is no one right way to handle a teenager’s room. There are probably 100 right ways. 

I reckon we all have weird stuff in the background we bring to these discussions.  I had a step mum who cleaned my room and it felt like an invasion of privacy.  On the other hand I had a pretty messy room and maybe to her it felt like lack of respect. I know people who say they were never able to craft in childhood because one parent insisted on everything always being fully packed away when he came home from work.  They could never do a 1000 piece puzzle for example.  On the other hand my approach probably veers more toward the - can never do a craft because good luck finding a clean surface to set up which is also not ideal.  I think the most critical thing is maintain respect in the relationship.  Try to make sure everyone has space for privacy, try to make sure everyone has the help they need/want to function socially and logistically.  Don’t let your teens rooms get to the point of rodents and mould but skip the daily room inspections ya know.  I think people were mostly initially responding to the tone of the original post which was quite negative/shaming.  If we can keep our stuff with our kids away from that we do better as parents.  I’m not saying that from some high point of perfection though.  I have to fight that tendency myself.  And I totally get why the op is frustrated cat pee is the worst and most frustrating of house keeping problems I’ve had to deal with - certainly sent me slightly crazy here.  

[Ausmumof3]

29 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

In the first episode of the sitcom Mad About You reboot, the daughter was moving out for college. There was a bit of tenseness in the relationship, but just the normal kind you see between mom and daughter. So mom is fussing over making sure the daughter isn’t forgetting anything, and daughter is slightly annoyed. When mom and dad get back home from dropping her off, the mom walks into daughter’s room to find the bed unmade. The mom takes it personally and feels it was intentional and was meant as a parting expression of disrespect toward the mom. The mom is hurt and marches down the street to see the daughter. They end up in an argument. The daughter says if it bothers you so bad, get rid of it. So the mom does. She smashes it and takes out her hurt and frustration. The episode shows how both mom and daughter feel, and you can empathize with both at the same time. Of course, it’s just TV, but this thread just made me think of it. 

As in the mum literally smashes up the bed?!

[Garga]

37 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

In the first episode of the sitcom Mad About You reboot, the daughter was moving out for college. There was a bit of tenseness in the relationship, but just the normal kind you see between mom and daughter. So mom is fussing over making sure the daughter isn’t forgetting anything, and daughter is slightly annoyed. When mom and dad get back home from dropping her off, the mom walks into daughter’s room to find the bed unmade. The mom takes it personally and feels it was intentional and was meant as a parting expression of disrespect toward the mom. The mom is hurt and marches down the street to see the daughter. They end up in an argument. The daughter says if it bothers you so bad, get rid of it. So the mom does. She smashes it and takes out her hurt and frustration. The episode shows how both mom and daughter feel, and you can empathize with both at the same time. Of course, it’s just TV, but this thread just made me think of it. 

Said mildly: I guess I’d need to watch the episode for myself, because the mom sounds bonkers. 🙂

Then again, a mom shaking her head and then taking a deep breath and getting over the unmade bed doesn’t make for a nice juicy TV drama, does it? 😄

Edited March 2, 2021 by Garga

[Ausmumof3]

20 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Yes.  She smashes it up good, lol. It all ends well. It’s just a sitcom. The mom is played by Helen Hunt.

Aah lol

i thought you were advocating for that as a good way of dealing with parent teen relationships for a minute 😂😂

[Amy Gen]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I had a step mum who cleaned my room and it felt like an invasion of privacy.  

Whenever we went to camp or visited grandma for weekend, our mom would “organize” our rooms which consisted of going through all of our things, reading our journals and letters from friends, throwing out anything she didn’t want,  and sometimes even painting our rooms what she claimed were our favorite colors. She got into almost physical fights with my teenage brother over whether or not the way he combed his hair made him “look like an idiot”.

I’m sure no one on these boards is that extreme, nevertheless my mother really believed she was just doing her best parenting and was never aware of when her desire to always have everything her way became personally violating behavior. 
 

I go to the other extreme, I only require my kids to clean when there is a justifiable reason. “Do you mind cleaning the kitchen so I have room to start cooking breakfast when I get home from the store?” “Could you please find time today to finish your laundry so I can get mine in.” “My friend is coming over at 3:00 do you mind making sure the bathrooms are wiped down before she gets here.” I have 100% compliance with these requests. 
 

I don’t open their doors without permission and have promised that I will never snoop unless their behavior gives me good cause to think they are not alright AND they refuse to talk to me about it. 
 

My 11 year old chooses to stretch and then straighten her room every night before she gets into bed. My 14 year old voluntarily got rid of 1/2 of her clothes because she realized she didn’t really love them but the sheer volume made it more difficult to keep her closet clean. They will be more able to chose how to care for their adult environments because they have experimented and learned strategies that work best for them. 
 

I have known more than my share of over controlling mothers. I once got my daughter’s friend a good job as a receptionist for my best friend’s company. It was a nice office and good pay for an awesome boss. I had called in a favor to get it for a 16 year old, but she would have been great at it, and it would have really helped her self esteem to excel in an adult environment. 
 

When she was due for orientation, she called me in tears. She had been so excited getting ready that she left her eyeshadow on the bathroom counter instead of putting it in the drawer under the counter. Since she broke her mother’s rule about not keeping her bathroom “tidy” she was not allowed to take the job. 
 

Since her mother would not allow her to work for money to buy a car, I decided to hand her down our red Thunderbird. Dh wanted to use it to teach her to change her own oil and change tires and learn what she needed to know about owning a car.  Then at the very first perceived infraction, her mother declared “If you are not mature enough to (fill in the blank) you are not mature enough to own a car.” You guessed it! She sold the car and kept the money. 
 

My point is that her mother 100% was convinced that she was just being a good parent. The result is that now, decades later, her kids are closer to me than her mother. I’m who she comes to for marriage advice and to celebrate victories and cry about setbacks, and her mother lives in a very tidy house. 
 

I have way too many examples of this kind of parenting. I won’t bore you with more, but the kid I was helping last week explained it very well. “With my mother, it was her way and there was no highway. She had a very clear idea of the kid she wanted, and it wasn’t me.” I knew exactly how she felt. 
 

I’m not in any way saying that it is crappy parenting to make kids clean. I’m just saying it is a tragedy for everyone when parents let their anxiety or need for order or control blind them to basic respect. So yes. I agree to mostly treating teens as peers. Maybe not friends, exactly (because they for sure don’t want to be friends with me. LOL!) but teammates and collaborators working towards the same goal of eventually launching them with the best odds of a happy successful future. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

I’m not in any way saying that it is crappy parenting to make kids clean. I’m just saying it is a tragedy for everyone when parents let their anxiety or need for order or control blind them to basic respect. So yes. I agree to mostly treating teens as peers. Maybe not friends, exactly (because they for sure don’t want to be friends with me. LOL!) but teammates and collaborators working towards the same goal of eventually launching them with the best odds of a happy successful future. 

I actually think treating kids as collaborators in this project is not at all the same thing as treating kids as peers. Honestly, my mom kind of treated me like a peer (except when she was being controlling), which meant that I got to hear all the details of her affair and got to read romantic poetry written to the guy, lol. I didn't want to be her peer. I wanted her to be invested in the project of launching me, as you say, and she wasn't. 

To my mind, helping kids figure out how to keep their space functional and teaching them to respect the needs of others in the family is totally compatible with the goal of launching them as independent adults.

[Ausmumof3]

23 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Whenever we went to camp or visited grandma for weekend, our mom would “organize” our rooms which consisted of going through all of our things, reading our journals and letters from friends, throwing out anything she didn’t want,  and sometimes even painting our rooms what she claimed were our favorite colors. She got into almost physical fights with my teenage brother over whether or not the way he combed his hair made him “look like an idiot”.

I’m sure no one on these boards is that extreme, nevertheless my mother really believed she was just doing her best parenting and was never aware of when her desire to always have everything her way became personally violating behavior. 
 

I go to the other extreme, I only require my kids to clean when there is a justifiable reason. “Do you mind cleaning the kitchen so I have room to start cooking breakfast when I get home from the store?” “Could you please find time today to finish your laundry so I can get mine in.” “My friend is coming over at 3:00 do you mind making sure the bathrooms are wiped down before she gets here.” I have 100% compliance with these requests. 
 

I don’t open their doors without permission and have promised that I will never snoop unless their behavior gives me good cause to think they are not alright AND they refuse to talk to me about it. 
 

My 11 year old chooses to stretch and then straighten her room every night before she gets into bed. My 14 year old voluntarily got rid of 1/2 of her clothes because she realized she didn’t really love them but the sheer volume made it more difficult to keep her closet clean. They will be more able to chose how to care for their adult environments because they have experimented and learned strategies that work best for them. 
 

I have known more than my share of over controlling mothers. I once got my daughter’s friend a good job as a receptionist for my best friend’s company. It was a nice office and good pay for an awesome boss. I had called in a favor to get it for a 16 year old, but she would have been great at it, and it would have really helped her self esteem to excel in an adult environment. 
 

When she was due for orientation, she called me in tears. She had been so excited getting ready that she left her eyeshadow on the bathroom counter instead of putting it in the drawer under the counter. Since she broke her mother’s rule about not keeping her bathroom “tidy” she was not allowed to take the job. 
 

Since her mother would not allow her to work for money to buy a car, I decided to hand her down our red Thunderbird. Dh wanted to use it to teach her to change her own oil and change tires and learn what she needed to know about owning a car.  Then at the very first perceived infraction, her mother declared “If you are not mature enough to (fill in the blank) you are not mature enough to own a car.” You guessed it! She sold the car and kept the money. 
 

My point is that her mother 100% was convinced that she was just being a good parent. The result is that now, decades later, her kids are closer to me than her mother. I’m who she comes to for marriage advice and to celebrate victories and cry about setbacks, and her mother lives in a very tidy house. 
 

I have way too many examples of this kind of parenting. I won’t bore you with more, but the kid I was helping last week explained it very well. “With my mother, it was her way and there was no highway. She had a very clear idea of the kid she wanted, and it wasn’t me.” I knew exactly how she felt. 
 

I’m not in any way saying that it is crappy parenting to make kids clean. I’m just saying it is a tragedy for everyone when parents let their anxiety or need for order or control blind them to basic respect. So yes. I agree to mostly treating teens as peers. Maybe not friends, exactly (because they for sure don’t want to be friends with me. LOL!) but teammates and collaborators working towards the same goal of eventually launching them with the best odds of a happy successful future. 

Wow that poor girl 😞 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Wow that poor girl 😞 

Yeah, that sounds like atrocious parenting. 

[SanDiegoMom]

17 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

 

I’m not in any way saying that it is crappy parenting to make kids clean. I’m just saying it is a tragedy for everyone when parents let their anxiety or need for order or control blind them to basic respect. So yes. I agree to mostly treating teens as peers. Maybe not friends, exactly (because they for sure don’t want to be friends with me. LOL!) but teammates and collaborators working towards the same goal of eventually launching them with the best odds of a happy successful future. 

I grew up with a mom with pretty strong generalized anxiety. (my dad has pretty bad anxiety too, but it manifests more with his own rituals and rules whereas my mom's was pretty strictly about the house).  I do have a decent relationship with her now and I know she loves us and the grandkids and they try really hard in other ways.  But her anxiety was such a powerful force and permeated my entire childhood.  The bad memories are pretty ingrained -- memories of me as a teen sobbing as I scrubbed my white tshirt clean of spaghetti sauce because I knew she was going to get upset that I spilled on it, or being so afraid of hitting the barstools (which swiveled) against the table top because it might rip the fake pleather on the stools (why get swivel stools when you have kids? I don't know).   When I visited with my kids when they were little I spent a large amount of energy trying to protect my oldest undiagnosed adhd daughter from her wrath.  I remember the drama when my daughter, who kicks in her sleep, kicked the wall so that a cheap 10 dollar vase fell off the shelf on the other side of the wall and broke.  It was SUCH a huge deal, and then every night after that she would take every thing off the shelf and then put it all back on again the next day.  

I think our upbringing really affects our own standards.  I was determined never to have that level of control ruin my family relationships, and since my husband grew up in a moderately cluttered house, we just went by his standards.  

Dreamergal's story of family cleaning sounds much more lovely.  Ours was driven by fear and anxiety. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I think our upbringing really affects our own standards.  I was determined never to have that level of control ruin my family relationships, and since my husband grew up in a moderately cluttered house, we just went by his standards.  

Yeah, I do think we're all responding to our upbringing. So, personally, I hated the power struggles, but I also hated being launched into the world without having good habits or knowing how to do basic stuff like cook. And that's what I'm responding to. 

I have to say, right now, homeschooling is MUCH more of a power struggle than cleaning. That's something we've been trying really hard to work on. Maybe that'll change as the kids grow older, but I find things that require effort and thought and feedback much more challenging than basic stuff like picking up the house together. 

[Amy Gen]

22 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I grew up with a mom with pretty strong generalized anxiety. (my dad has pretty bad anxiety too, but it manifests more with his own rituals and rules whereas my mom's was pretty strictly about the house). 

I’m old, so we didn’t understand back when I was a kid that anxiety was what our parents were dealing with. They just seemed like impatient perfectionists. My sister can do a pretty good impression of my dad yelling at us when he was driving because a can or bottle was rolling around on the floor. With my 2021 eyes, I can recognize that his anxiety was ramped up with driving in traffic, but no one I knew was calling it that then. 

[Murphy101]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

It has been said repeatedly but I will say it again.  Because some parents really really want their home neat and clean.  

I really want a ton of stuff in life I’m maybe never gonna get, much less get it when or how I want it. Doesn’t mean anyone doesn’t respect me.

ETA: and I do make my kids clean their rooms and do chores. Because I do think they need to learn how to live peaceably with other people, the value of bringing physical order in their lives can be a small therapy and certainly a helpful coping mechanism for those who struggle with EF.  But I never ever make it about character unless they refuse my minimal standards. Having a problem is not a character issue. Refusing to address a problem is. And they never have to handle their problems on their own. Jesus didn’t carry His cross alone. Humans aren’t meant to either. 

The majority of messy teen rooms do not end up filthy hell holes for those adults. My room was a “pig sty” as a teen.  My home is not at all. Similar for my messy teens as they’ve moved out. Dh on the other hand lived in a home where his mom demanded it be spotless and perfectly ordered right down to all the vacuum marks had to face the same direction. Just this morning I told dh if he wanted his laundry done, he knows where to put it. And he is driving a son insane bc during the day he takes over son’s room (it’s the most remote from noise in the house) for work and now it smells like pickles and ranch dressing. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Murphy101

[Amy Gen]

41 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

One day, she would feel overwhelmed, and out of the blue rage at me

One day, my mom got lost on the freeway going to the DVM and by the time she got there, it was too late to do what she needed to get done there then she had to come home in horrible traffic. She was a wreck when she walked in the door, which I think is pretty understandable. 
 

My 2.5 year old was happily playing in her toy kitchen when my mom came in, and my mom started yelling at her about picking up her fake food and pots and pans. My kid hadn’t been asked to pick up, she wasn’t doing anything wrong at all except existing in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was the moment when I decided that my mom would not have access to my kids. It is just so damaging to allow kids to be treated that way. 

[Melissa Louise]

31 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I really want a ton of stuff in life I’m maybe never gonna get, much less get it when or how I want it. Doesn’t mean anyone doesn’t respect me.

ETA: and I do make my kids clean their rooms and do chores. Because I do think they need to learn how to live peaceably with other people, the value of bringing physical order in their lives can be a small therapy and certainly a helpful coping mechanism for those who struggle with EF.  But I never ever make it about character unless they refuse my minimal standards. Having a problem is not a character issue. Refusing to address a problem is. And they never have to handle their problems on their own. Jesus didn’t carry His cross alone. Humans aren’t meant to either. 

The majority of messy teen rooms do not end up filthy hell holes for those adults. My room was a “pig sty” as a teen.  My home is not at all. Similar for my messy teens as they’ve moved out. Dh on the other hand lived in a home where his mom demanded it be spotless and perfectly ordered right down to all the vacuum marks had to face the same direction. Just this morning I told dh if he wanted his laundry done, he knows where to put it. And he is driving a son insane bc during the day he takes over son’s room (it’s the most remote from noise in the house) for work and now it smells like pickles and ranch dressing. 

This is interesting. I think what made it so awful for me growing up was the correlation between 'mess' ( I was not even that messy - I certainly met minimum standards) and having a mother link that with character (slob, disrespectful etc) AND no sense of anyone coming alongside.

I'll never agree it's ok to describe a teen as a slob who thinks she's above picking up, regardless of parental anxiety, desires or frustrations. 

If it's EF, it's not character.

If it's not EF, it's something else, and even if you secretly believe it's because your child is a disrespectful slob, what's to be gained for the relationship from framing it that way?

 

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I really want a ton of stuff in life I’m maybe never gonna get, much less get it when or how I want it. Doesn’t mean anyone doesn’t respect me.

ETA: and I do make my kids clean their rooms and do chores. Because I do think they need to learn how to live peaceably with other people, the value of bringing physical order in their lives can be a small therapy and certainly a helpful coping mechanism for those who struggle with EF.  But I never ever make it about character unless they refuse my minimal standards. Having a problem is not a character issue. Refusing to address a problem is. And they never have to handle their problems on their own. Jesus didn’t carry His cross alone. Humans aren’t meant to either. 

 

The bolded is where I see a lack of respect and it is what I was talking about. If my kid knows a tidy and clean room is important to me and he for whatever reason doesn’t keep even a somewhat tidy or clean room....then I consider that a lack of respect.  
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

One day, my mom got lost on the freeway going to the DVM and by the time she got there, it was too late to do what she needed to get done there then she had to come home in horrible traffic. She was a wreck when she walked in the door, which I think is pretty understandable. 
 

My 2.5 year old was happily playing in her toy kitchen when my mom came in, and my mom started yelling at her about picking up her fake food and pots and pans. My kid hadn’t been asked to pick up, she wasn’t doing anything wrong at all except existing in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was the moment when I decided that my mom would not have access to my kids. It is just so damaging to allow kids to be treated that way. 

I've never let my mom to have access to my kids, really, unless I'm there. But we're low contact and she tries VERY hard when my kids are around, because she's aware she isn't going to be allowed to talk to anyone if she isn't on her best behavior. She doesn't feel the comfort with my kids that would make her misbehave 😉 . 

On the other hand, I watch her scream her head off at my little sister for all of her childhood, and it was very unpleasant. As you say, a lot of the times, my sister's "crime" was being a child and existing in the wrong place at the wrong time. This was why I always felt so protective of my little sister and why I'd have been absolutely willing to have her live with us at any moment in time, not that anyone was going to let me. 

 

7 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

If it's not EF, it's something else, and even if you secretly believe it's because your child is a disrespectful slob, what's to be gained for the relationship from framing it that way?

Nothing. There's nothing to be gained to the relationship by framing it that way, but people get frustrated. At least I do -- annoying situations that that I can't change don't always have me reaching for the most appropriate or nice adjectives. 

I'm sure someone could psychoanalyze me and link to this to the VERY limited amount of control I had as a kid and a teen, but ultimately, I don't see any point. I understand that these are not good words to use when talking to my kids. I try hard to make our conversations about their behaviors and not their characters, because I found that approach damaging as a teen. But I don't think I'd want people to make me feel even worse for using the wrong words when I rant on a chat board. I don't think it does a thing to make the relationship better and doesn't help anyone. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Not_a_Number