How do you adjust expectations in marriage?

[R828]

I've lurked here off and on for a long time and I've learned so much here. Right now, I'm struggling in my marriage and I'd really appreciate any wisdom you can share.

How do you adjust your expectations when you feel like certain needs of yours aren't being met, and your spouse is extremely unlikely to change? Communication has completely broken down and every time we try to talk about our issues it appears to make things worse because we really can't see each other's point of view. I'm starting to realize things will probably never get better. I just want to change my expectations and accept this, but I'm really struggling with actually doing it. My husband has many good qualities and I'd like to focus on those but mentally I feel stuck focusing on the fact that we are just not best friends like we used to be.  

In our case, for multiple reasons, both therapy and splitting up are currently not options. Also this is not in any way an abusive situation.

Please share any insights, coping mechanisms or really anything that might help! We are both Christians so biblical advice is welcome too. I hate feeling so trapped and hopeless. 😞

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by R828
typo

[JustEm]

I am sorry you are dealing with this.  I know how hard that must be. 

I can't give any advice that will help in your situation without really knowing the issue.  From my experience trying to adjust expectations and settle over an issue because the couple is unable to communicate effectively is just a band-aid on a festering wound.  Eventually that wound is to infect your whole self and relationship.  

I'd encourage you to figure out a way to work with a mediator to help you are your spouse learn to communicate and understand each other better.  You were best friends before, and you could be again.  It may look different than it was but you have to find a way to work together to find a way to get back that friendship.

[Junie]

My advice would be to pray for him.  Praying for him will help you to focus on the good and let God handle the rest. 

I highly recommend Stormie Omartian's book, The Power of a Praying Wife.

I don't remember where I heard it, but *someone* said that prayer does not always change how God handles a situation, but it changes how the person praying handles a situation.

 

[Scarlett]

My best advice is to focus on keeping your vow in spite of difficulties. Don’t focus on your unmet needs and wants,  

 

and (((hugs)))

[Moonhawk]

Ok, since you kept it general, I don't know if this is actually helpful, but maybe it will trigger something else for you even if it isn't.

Do you have any common ground? At all? Favorite coffee brand, even, if you have to go that small?

I am self-admittedly low on the listen-to-me-for-marriage-advice list, but one of the fastest things that helped return a sense of hope to the situation was focusing not on the positive traits (because then I would drift to thinking about the traits I *wish* he had or that he *used* to have) but on the things that we could still actively share together. For us, it was video games, movies (and talking about them afterwards), and soundtracks. I am not exaggerating when I say we spent probably 8 months doing one of those things every night together, and sometimes all three things (and sometimes taking a whole day, even though we had the kids around), just to foster the connection. It didn't make the other problems go away, but it helped with my perspective and ability to cope. 

Eventually you have to address the actual issues, but this may give you a better common ground to start with, so that it doesn't feel always confrontational or different sides. 

In the end I also changed my expectations, but it didn't feel as much like I was "giving up" or "giving in" or "settling", as much as accepting a new reality and finding for myself the best way to live in it for me. I probably wouldn't have been so accepting of the new reality if it did not include a lot of common ground with DH.  

eta: Also, if this is a general feeling unloved thing and not something "more serious" (not to say feeling unloved isn't serious), have you guys done the 5 Love Languages and are your correct languages being used?

Edited September 7, 2020 by Moonhawk

[MercyA]

What everyone else said. Talk, pray, do things together, do what is right. And do some things you enjoy on your own.

[frogger]

In all honesty, I don't think we can give you advice without actually knowing you. One person will say they need how to be better wife while serving an overbearing, negectful, or even abusive husband. Another will complain about an overworked man who is trying his best but the wife wants him to meet ALL her needs. Anyway, most of us fall in the middle of course and we go through different stages where we are more one way or another.

 I would say start with thinking about your unmet needs. Husbands do need to meet needs emotional, sexual, etc etc for a happy and fulfilling marriage but they aren't always able to and of course neither are we when the shoe is on the other foot.

I would first ask myself if this need is something that should be met in God or changing my own life rather than expecting it of my husband. All our needs can't be met in our husbands. We need to make sure we are not asking them for something we ought to get elsewhere. 

I also agree with prayer, not just for him to meet your needs but just him as in individual. Is he walking with God? Is he stressed at work? Does he need emotional healing? If God gives you insight into helping him, he may grow and change and you may find him returning the favor.

I also would really recommend the book Crucial Conversations:Tools for Talking When Stakes are High.  My husband's management team read it for work but it really will apply to personal situations too and we read it together and need to practice it more with extended family! But it is good for all types of conversations.

Edited September 7, 2020 by frogger

[J-rap]

I'm so sorry you're going through this.  After spending a few really difficult years walking alongside two people -- both very, very close to me, who were really struggling in their marriage, I have a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

 

I'd ask a few questions:

Is there any chance of a mental disorder?  Either a mental illness, disordered thinking, or extreme personality tendencies?  Depression?

Is this person sometimes a rather selfish, stubborn type of person, possibly caught up in an unhealthy way of of viewing relationships due to his family upbringing, particular church theology, etc?

Are there bad habits, addictions, etc. involved?

Or maybe he's generally a thoughtful, caring man who just happens to have a different perspective on things than you do?

Is it possible that it's not really the relationship as much as other things being extremely stressful:  job, money, etc?

What do you think your part has been in the ongoing struggles?

 

Anyway, answering those questions can be a helpful place to start, and can shed new insight.  

 

Another question that's sometimes helpful:  Can you pinpoint a time or event when things started to change?  That could give insight too.

And a biggie:  Are you able to meet him at the place where he feels most neglected or unsupported?  Not the place that you think should be the most important (and very likely is), but the place where he feels most need right now?

 

A psychologist friend of mine once told me that it's surprising how a very little thing can get a person or a marriage to turn toward a path of healing.  Sometimes all it takes is a tiny sliver of connection, or a sliver of insight, that lasts long enough in a person's brain to cause that person to momentarily question themselves.  If their brain holds that thought for even 30 seconds, then chances are that thought will come up again later.  Only the next time, it'll last a little longer, and the next time, longer still.  And the next time, it might actually trigger a small change that eventually triggers bigger changes.  Don't expect a major revelation right at the start (that's always people's hope, of course.)     Instead, just try and find a sliver that sticks.  

 

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Well, generally therapy would be my suggestion - specifically solution based therapy. Only that type. https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/therapy/what-is-solution-based-therapy/?utm_source=AdWords&utm_medium=Search_PPC_c&utm_term=_b&utm_content=72578453010&network=g&placement=&target=&matchtype=b&utm_campaign=6459244691&ad_type=text&adposition=&gclid=CjwKCAjwtNf6BRAwEiwAkt6UQjj7armE8UBtC9UnQrvb0JS5ftsVtjakkH_h7lAG05uGXBm12wHZ5RoCNyQQAvD_BwE

But if that isn't an option, is working through a book together an option? What I mean is, is the No to therapy due to cost, access or him refusing to acknowledge the problem?

Communication skills are the most vital thing in a marriage (or any relationship) and also on of the very fixable things, so I hate to think y'all can't work on it. 

The Marriage Builders Website is my go to suggestion for PRACTICAL marriage help - it is very cut and dry and logical which some men appreciate. 

Otherwise I think I'd try to figure out WHY my spouse is not able to understand my need, or not able to meet it. If he isn't going to change, I'd hope that me understanding his perspective/reasons/etc might help me be more accepting of his behavior. 

[Junie]

5 hours ago, frogger said:

In all honesty, I don't think we can give you advice without actually knowing you. One person will say they need how to be better wife while serving an overbearing, negectful, or even abusive husband. Another will complain about an overworked man who is trying his best but the wife wants him to meet ALL her needs. Anyway, most of us fall in the middle of course and we go through different stages where we are more one way or another.

 I would say start with thinking about your unmet needs. Husbands do need to meet needs emotional, sexual, etc etc for a happy and fulfilling marriage but they aren't always able to and of course neither are we when the shoe is on the other foot.

I would first ask myself if this need is something that should be met in God or changing my own life rather than expecting it of my husband. All our needs can't be met in our husbands. We need to make sure we are not asking them for something we ought to get elsewhere. 

I also agree with prayer, not just for him to meet your needs but just him as in individual. Is he walking with God? Is he stressed at work? Does he need emotional healing? If God gives you insight into helping him, he may grow and change and you may find him returning the favor.

I also would really recommend the book Crucial Conversations:Tools for Talking When Stakes are High.  My husband's management team read it for work but it really will apply to personal situations too and we read it together and need to practice it more with extended family! But it is good for all types of conversations.

Yes!  This is absolutely what I meant when I said to pray for him.  I didn't articulate my thoughts well.

In the book that I recommended, the author has a different topic for prayer for each day of the month -- his work, his fears, his priorities, his self-image...

 

[Guest]

I can relate. My story is still being written and I’m protective about sharing too much on a public forum, but I do have some experience and thoughts on this, so, in no particular order, here are some things that help. 

First, I really love this book. My mate is not a person who would ever agree to therapy, read a book of his own, meet with the pastor or a mentoring couple, or really “work on our marriage.” He does not think that way and is not a sensitive, relational guy. So, for me, this idea - it takes one to tango - was exceedingly helpful, because I knew it was going to be wholly dependent on what I do. 

Second, I agree with other posters who said seek common ground and activities you both enjoy, even if it’s small. Believe me, this was one of the more difficult things because we like different things, are now affiliated with different political parties, and sometimes it seemed like there is no safe topic for discussion except our kids or family members. But we both like nature and hiking, both like boating and kayaking, and both like making good food. That’s been all we have a good bit of the time. 

Third, I do not give up the things I want to do because we don’t share them. Would it be a better and more enjoyable marriage if we did? Yes. But I’m a firm realist in this respect; you can only work with the parameters you’ve got. Let me share a couple of the ways this has looked. 

I read. I read tons and tons of material every day. My mate does not read for pleasure except some magazines or technical info he needs. I truly wish I could talk for hours with my husband about a new book by our favorite author or...if there were any kind of reading overlap at all. I wish I could have that, but I can’t. He doesn’t read; he has some never-addressed LDs (purely my armchair opinion), and so I had to accept this was not something we are ever going to share. So I am in a book club, plus I have other friends who love discussing books, plus people here. I just do my book thing separate from him. 

I also make an effort to connect with him over things I could take or leave, just so he will be encouraged that I make the effort. For example, we do both like cooking and baking and the quest for making delicious food. For me, this means I comb through books. But for him, he watches YouTubes and Food TV. Some of the TV shows he likes to watch, I could certainly miss - Diners, Drive-ins and Dives springs to mind - but it is a way for us to be doing the same thing and talk about the food or if we would like that or not. Oftentimes, he is watching news on TV and that is unbearable to me, so if he is not watching that stupid news channel, I try to “reward” him by joining him for it. 

Recently, I bought a season pass to a lovely park near us. In reality, I did this for my mental health and to connect with a friend who walks there. But I also realized this was a good activity for us to share, since we both enjoy that and it affords connection. I have noticed in the past that when we need to discuss difficult things, walking in nature is a really great opening for doing so. (Difficult things meaning something like what to do about a kid struggling in some way.) So, I mentally reserve Saturday morning to go the park together alone, assuming we’re both home and not otherwise occupied. In the COVID world, we have the “benefit” of few things on the docket to do. 

I hope all that helps. I have been married going on 26 years and believe me, a lot of those years have been bumpy. I am an extreme idealist in most aspects and it was hard for me to realize certain things are simply not going to be. But I make certain I still develop the things about myself that are a part of me, while yet connecting on the basis of ways we can share. I think, assuming we are not talking about abuse or infidelity or something totally not okay, so much of marriage is just continuing to make the choice to love, to invest. Keep making the choice to stay together. 

*I have put that caveat above in there literally every time I have given that particular marriage advice but every time, someone still thinks I’m saying, “save your marriage by just staying put, however badly you’re treated.” Please know I am not saying this! I don’t have experience in marriage with abuse or infidelity or criminal activity. But if it is “just” a matter of feeling like you don’t have much in common and he isn’t a “let’s work on our marriage!” kind of guy, that I do have experience with and, so far, it has been fixable. It also helps me to reflect on the fact that, say, if I found a different guy who wants nothing more than to talk about how beautiful the phrasing is in The Night Circus, that guy probably can’t fix the broken air conditioner and, TBH, I would be pretty annoyed to find myself with someone un-handy after 30 years being with someone who can fix anything. So, essentially: nobody’s perfect! I’m not either! He probably wishes I would be more ___________; I-don’t-know-what; maybe wishes I would want to go to a political rally with him or wanted to go to the shooting range on the reg. 🤷🏻‍♀️ AFAIK, he hasn’t gone looking for a woman who will do those things with him; he stays with his book-loving artist and makes the best of it. 

[Guest]

As if I had not already posted a novella, here’s something I want to add: the idea behind the book I linked is that when you do something different, your mate does something different, so you can change outcomes without having a sit-down where everyone agrees there’s a problem and everyone is eager to actively “work on” the marriage. Some of the things I mentioned in my post I chose to do with no idea if it would help. But, as in the game of chess, my move makes his move, and then his move makes mine. We don’t have to have a sit-down and be eagerly on the same page - good thing, because he never would have done that. But - and I’m not sure whether this works subconsciously or consciously; probably a combination of both - but as I choose to sit with him for Diners, Drive-ins and Dives, he changes his behavior more, choosing more often to put something on the telly that I will watch, instead of the news show that will drive me to another part of the house. 

So it is like a dance, like a tango. What I choose affects what he chooses. I mean, other than sociopaths, no one likes to be in a tense relationship. So if I do something that causes him to think, “well, that was nice! We watched that tv show together and talked about how we would/would never eat that,” it reinforces that choice in him and he is more likely to turn the TV to something that will keep me there, rather than something that will drive me to a different part of the house. 

[Storygirl]

I think the other advice offered to you is helpful. I will just add that when my parents' marriage was rocky, and my dad refused to change or go to counseling, my mother went to counseling on her own. Perhaps there is someone you could turn to, even if your husband won't join you in the sessions.

[BlsdMama]

Want good for him, pray good for him, do good for him.  That's it.  Keep doing it every day.... you can alter your thinking from, "If only he..." to intentionally turning your thoughts towards something YOU can actively do or praying for him.

[YaelAldrich]

My favorite book on bringing a marriage to a better place (Hold Me Tight by Dr Sue Johnson) has a Christian offshoot, Created Connection.  If you can't do Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), this book,  done with serious intentions could make a difference.  Good luck!

Edited September 7, 2020 by YaelAldrich

[maize]

How about focusing on your own mental health? Find joy in other parts of your life? If you have needs that are not being met through your marriage, are there other ways to meet those needs? Aside from physical intimacy needs, most of our human needs and desires do not require the cooperation of our spouse to be met. My best friend is my sister, not my spouse. I pursue interests and hobbies by myself or with friends.

My husband has struggled with serious depression for most of our marriage. I love him, I stand by him, but he has not been able to be an emotional support for me through most of our almost 19 years together. The past year has been far better as we finally found a treatment that works for him--I'd almost given up hope of things ever getting better. I've had to learn through the years though to not let my ability to live fully be dependent on him meeting my needs for companionship and support and friendship.

[catz]

Can YOU go to therapy and work on your own mental health?  That might be a good first step to really understand if your expectations are reasonable.  I found that very helpful in one season of my life and my whole outlook changed due to that self reflection.  I went for 6 months and felt done.  I was also reading some relevant self help type of books at the time that were insightful.  

[Jaybee]

9 hours ago, Junie said:

My advice would be to pray for him.  Praying for him will help you to focus on the good and let God handle the rest. 

I highly recommend Stormie Omartian's book, The Power of a Praying Wife.

I love that book. Another thought on prayer: As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit to teach us, guide us, work within us. When I pray, I recognize that God knows dh so much better than I do. Therefore, He knows what dh is feeling, what he needs, and what things I might do that would either help or harm the relationship and my dh. If I act on my assumptions of what dh's behavior is telling me, then I can easily get my back up and want to hurt him or say something that causes everything to go on a downhill slide. But if I ask for guidance and wisdom in how to respond to a situation, or for perspective and understanding, God always answers that and shows me how to best deal with something (or what to say), even if occasionally it is to be kind and respectful in my disagreement. I can't tell you how many times this approach has turned a sticky and confrontational situation into an opportunity for deeper understanding, and has softened my heart considerably, just because I understand where the behavior is coming from. (Works from his perspective as well.) This has been so helpful to me both in my marriage and in parenting. You are not alone in this, and you don't have to figure it all out alone, because God understands your dh, even when dh is being sinful. Prayer is also helpful in showing me when I am just being a selfish jerk, as well!

I haven't read @Quill's book reco yet, though I did buy it some time back because it sounded interesting. But I think she wrote lots of helpful ideas as well. My dh and I are not a whole lot alike when it comes to activities and secular interests. But we don't put down each other's preferences or make fun of them, and do try to join each other in them sometimes (I'll watch a ballgame, he'll go to a play. I'm not really a movie person, but dh loves movies and it means a lot to him when I go with him, so I do.) However, we are a lot alike when it comes to values and things we want out of life. Sometimes focusing on what we do have in common is helpful.

And this may not apply at all. But sometimes I just feel lonely. It isn't dh's fault. It isn't anybody's fault. I think that even if you have a great marriage and/or a great life, there are things that you spiritually (or otherwise) have to walk through that another person can't go through with you. There are holes that only God can fill, and the days, weeks, months that I go through those times are hard, but I come through them with a greater and deeper understanding if I have sought Him with all my heart.

[ktgrok]

46 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I’ve also paradoxically found that being too nice about crossed boundaries was a problem. It’s important to communicate what your boundaries are and actually stick to them. The best mode is, of course, firm but inflexible, but I have trouble with that. But I’ve found anger to be a better option than letting yourself be walked on, because festering resentment is worse than one bad fight.

The bolded is my number on marriage advice, to anyone. 

EVERY relationship I've seen that goes south has involved this to some extent. People rolling their eyes and putting up with stuff over and over - NOT in a truly "oh well, silly DH!" way that we all do, but in a grumbling "I can't believe he did XYZ AGAIN...guess I'll just be the one to deal with it" muttering under your breath way. Or a venting to your girlfriends way. Until you start being all passive aggressive, and responding to innocent things with anger and hurt because it has built up for so long. 

that's how marriages die, in my opinion. 

I was in years of therapy, read a ton of books (including some mentioned here) and that is the biggest factor. In fact, my own relationship is a bit not as great now (not bad at all - just not as happy as it was) and I KNOW it is me being resentful and not speaking up about some stuff. I'm at least acknowledging that, and working on addressing it. I need first to figure out what I want to change, before asking for it. 

But many many times we KNOW what we want, and don't ask for it, instead we get mad when it doesn't happen. We don't want to nag, or be bitchy. But that's what MAKES us a nag - it kills our soul. 

That doesn't mean yelling at your spouse over every little thing. We all have things we just live with - I don't close cabinet doors and my DH won't notice the trash can is full. BUT other stuff - like me needing him to help at bedtime, we CAN address. Or him needing me to ..I don't know, I'm sure there is something, lol. And when those situations happen what helps is to look at and define the problem, then ask the spouse for help with the problem. Make it a team effort of you both together against the problem, NOT you versus your spouse. 

 

[ktgrok]

Oh, there is a fantastic radio show about family counseling called More 2 Life, from Ave Maria Radio. It is a husband and wife - both therapists - and although they are Catholic any Christian would find it helpful I'd think. They don't pray the Rosary or anything during  it, lol. 

But they use that solution focused therapy approach, and have callers call with their problems and then the therapists walk them through potential solutions and ways of shifting perspective. It's REALLY practical - not just theory. I believe they have books as well, and even a telephone based counseling service although I have no idea what the price would be. And I haven't read the books. But just listening to the show daily (you can find it as a podcast I think) might help with a shift in perspective. 

(the ONLY thing I really disagree with them on is they are not pro ADHD meds or labels for kids....but their approach may be more nuanced than that...I only know of that from a call they took where they talked about people being too quick to jump to that when it might be just a need for more structure or exercise or whatever)

Podcast: https://avemariaradio.net/program/more-2-life/

Here is the website for them - looks like you can find the podcasts there, books, counseling, etc. https://catholiccounselors.com/about-us/

[ktgrok]

One last thing - you mentioned communication....is there a way to communicate differently that would meet your needs?

Like, via notes? email? Text messages? 

Going for a drive and talking side by side in the car, which I find works well with teenagers - maybe it works with husbands?

Also, sometimes it isn't that they won't communicate, it is that they do it differently and we don't realize. 

With me, I want to hash it all out until there is a solution, even if it takes hours and lots of emotion and wrong turns. Picture two dogs greeting, snarling, tussling, then playing, all in a row. My husband is more of a cat. He wants to think on it, process it, and 24-48 hours later he will then be ready to discuss it. For a long time I thought he just wouldn't talk about things...but I wasn't realizing he would..just not on my time frame. He wasn't walking away permanently, or dropping it permanently, or ignoring me, he was processing. 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The bolded is my number on marriage advice, to anyone. 

EVERY relationship I've seen that goes south has involved this to some extent. People rolling their eyes and putting up with stuff over and over - NOT in a truly "oh well, silly DH!" way that we all do, but in a grumbling "I can't believe he did XYZ AGAIN...guess I'll just be the one to deal with it" muttering under your breath way. Or a venting to your girlfriends way. Until you start being all passive aggressive, and responding to innocent things with anger and hurt because it has built up for so long. 

that's how marriages die, in my opinion. 

QFT. 

I always thought, one thing that is best avoided, is constantly bitching about your mate to your friends. For one thing, if the friend is not a particular defender of marriage in general, they can really fan the flames of discontent. 

One of the things I had to learn in adulthood (like, way into adulthood) was how to say, “This is not okay with me!” Or “I feel ill-used!” One of my earlier friendships that imploded was largely based on this fact. She was a very dominent personality and I am very accommodating and gentle. So all of the big crossed boundaries I constantly put up with in regards to her absolutely destroyed the friendship from the inside out. 

My own parents are conflict avoiders and my mother always used to brag about how they have never had an argument in all their years of marriage. I think that was a really craptastic message for me to absorb, especially since I do have strong ideals and very high standards on what is “good.” So really I had to overcome this entire programming of “a good marriage means never a cross word.” So now, I don’t let stuff go on under the surface. Just last week, I sent dh pictures of dishes and texted him, “How do you imagine this mess is getting cleaned up?” Lol. We had a good discussion about it, and I was able to express what really worries me: fears that once I am working FT, nobody will see that stuff still needs to be done around the house and people have to step to the plate. 

[Murphy101]

Practice HALT 24/7. 

Do not talk or argue if either of you are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.

Expectations ruin everything.

If he is a generally decent person and good father - then recognize that is what matters most.

I think it is an error to expect a spouse to meet all our needs.  And it surely is detrimental to forming a friendship too.  I think of my good friends who have been through so much with me - and there is no expectation there.  I’m heartily grateful for them, possibly bc I never expected such depth to our friendship.

The best relationships I have are not based on the other person. They are based on me being a good friend and person. 

So unless you can be more specific about what you mean by meeting your needs - I’m not sure we can help much.

There are things, momentous important heart breaking things, that I will never understand about my husband that make me wonder at times if he really loves me.  But the thing is, my wife job is not to understand him but to love him.

What are these needs not being met? Are they genuinely important to the future of the family or the character of your spouse?

Is it a matter of religious belief?

Is it agreement about how to raise the kids?

Is it a matter of how to handle family finances?

Is it a matter of sex?

All else, imo, is actually not all that important and is usually a distraction from the actual marriage problems.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, R828 said:

***Warning***  My views are every counter-cultural, so you might want to brace yourself for a very different point of view than most American females have. 

***Background***My husband had a crisis of faith and left our shared faith 16 years ago, which was 12 years into our marriage with 3 young kids at home. Everything about our married changed completely.  The first ten years after the change are the hardest, but it gets better if you get flexible in your thinking.

"How do you adjust your expectations when you feel like certain needs of yours aren't being met, and your spouse is extremely unlikely to change?"

By no longer expecting your spouse to meet those needs and finding other ethical ways of meeting them that don't involve him. Mentally fire him from that job (not in a resentful way, but matter-of-factly) and start looking for replacements.  Obviously I'm not talking about a physical or emotional affair (but thanks to internet culture I have to say it outloud. )  Specify your needs and seek out other ethical outlets for meeting them.

"Communication has completely broken down and every time we try to talk about our issues it appears to make things worse because we really can't see each other's point of view. I'm starting to realize things will probably never get better."

Most people over estimate the value of having someone else see your point of view.  It's better to just have some respect you while your voice it, respect your differences, and give you room to develop them elsewhere with their blessing. 

 "I just want to change my expectations and accept this, but I'm really struggling with actually doing it."

You do things by doing them.  When you start to tell yourself he's not meeting your expectations, remind yourself that you fired him for that job and hired someone/something else. Then get to work on your relationship with the someone else or something else. Actually take some sort of constructive action that demonstrates putting that expectation elsewhere.

How do you usually respond to change?  Do you tend to fight it and resent it or are you usually able to adapt to it?  Are you someone prone to idealism who keeps insisting on how things should be, or are you a realist able to focus your thoughts and actions on how things are ? Do you keep looking to the familiar past for a framework for projecting what you'll do about the present and future or are you able to pivot and restructure a new framework based on the new reality with your spouse? All of the first halves of those questions are a recipe for resentment, anger, and strife. The second halves are a recipe for improving the situation in a constructive way.

In the immortal words of Ragnar Lothbrok, "Don't bother looking back-you aren't going that way." I suggest you assume this is your new normal, so you should think,  say,  and do things based on your new normal. That's what accepting it means.

Spending a lot of time on your feelings about there being a new normal seems counter-productive to me. (I assume you've expressed those feelings already in some way.) Now it's time to move on in the context of the new normal. It's perfectly appropriate to cry and wail and rage about your house being burnt down, but then the time comes when it's appropriate to start clearing the rubble and laying the new foundation. You won't get much cleared and laid if you keep stopping to cry and wail and rage.

"My husband has many good qualities and I'd like to focus on those but mentally I feel stuck focusing on the fact that we are just not best friends like we used to be.  "

I think expecting spouses to be best friends in a marriage is a recipe for failed marriages.  It's like handwriting an invitation to Trouble asking it to please come live with you.  I know, I know, it's culturally normative to expect your spouse to be your best friend, but it's one of the biggest sources of conflict in marriages because it's a completely  unrealistic expectation. Does it work out that way sometimes in some marriages?  Yes!  Should anyone ever expect that to be the case at all much less for the duration of the marriage?  No!  There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with spouses not being best friends.  It's the norm.

Friendships are to be had with lots of different people.  Companionship too.  People need multiple circles of relationships in their lives.  It's unfair that some expect all of it to come from one source like their nuclear family or spouse.  (I don't know if this is the case with you or not.) No one can meet all their spouse's emotional needs. 
 

"In our case, for multiple reasons, both therapy and splitting up are currently not options. Also this is not in any way an abusive situation.

Please share any insights, coping mechanisms or really anything that might help! We are both Christians so biblical advice is welcome too. I hate feeling so trapped and hopeless." 😞

Women in particular would benefit from reading widely about times past when marriage was not romanticized. (Before the 1800s.) It would dramatically improve expectations. And no, I don't mean women's lack of rights, I mean that marriage was seen as an economic, religious, and sometimes political institution for bringing up children and stabilizing society, not about personal fulfillment or even companionship.  Sometimes personal fulfillment and companionship developed in some marriages, but it wasn't necessarily characteristic of marriage itself.  Women developed emotional intimacy and companionship among other women in friendships.

Having a working understanding of personality differences is HUGE.  Anyone who isn't already familiar with the basic differences in Meyers-Briggs and the Big 5 would benefit from putting in the effort. It goes in long way avoiding unnecessarily hurt feelings.

 

 

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

Ok, since you kept it general, I don't know if this is actually helpful, but maybe it will trigger something else for you even if it isn't.

Do you have any common ground? At all? Favorite coffee brand, even, if you have to go that small?

I am self-admittedly low on the listen-to-me-for-marriage-advice list, but one of the fastest things that helped return a sense of hope to the situation was focusing not on the positive traits (because then I would drift to thinking about the traits I *wish* he had or that he *used* to have) but on the things that we could still actively share together. For us, it was video games, movies (and talking about them afterwards), and soundtracks. I am not exaggerating when I say we spent probably 8 months doing one of those things every night together, and sometimes all three things (and sometimes taking a whole day, even though we had the kids around), just to foster the connection. It didn't make the other problems go away, but it helped with my perspective and ability to cope. 

Eventually you have to address the actual issues, but this may give you a better common ground to start with, so that it doesn't feel always confrontational or different sides. 

In the end I also changed my expectations, but it didn't feel as much like I was "giving up" or "giving in" or "settling", as much as accepting a new reality and finding for myself the best way to live in it for me. I probably wouldn't have been so accepting of the new reality if it did not include a lot of common ground with DH.  

Out of all the advice so far, this is the kind I've found most helpful IRL. If I had realized earlier in our marriage that he seems to have a pathological need to be separate from all human beings, except under mysterious and esoteric circumstances that apparently don't include marriage, we most likely would've parted a long time ago. Alas, life circumstances obscured some of this until it's really too late to be practical now, and I really don't want to live alone. He's also starting to realize some of what he does like this, though since he has quite serious issues with impulsivity (one manifestation of his ADHD, other symptoms are just as damaging), it's more like Groundhog Day than forward progress. If yours does not, YMMV, and you might be able to happily enjoy common ground without serious pitfalls (pearls before swine moments).

Example: one time, I gave a genuine exclamation of "I'm so happy we have this activity together" and stated "Aren't you glad I got you into Activity A because now you like it too, and we can do it together." His immediate response was to basically dismiss what I said as though he'd always liked that activity and it had nothing to do with me excitedly sharing the activity with him. (If the situation were reversed, he'd be hurt.)

It is also sometimes not possible for me to suggest additional things we might like to do together for some reason I can't articulate that is the other side of the same coin that makes him say this kind of stuff. Other times, he's not like this, and I never know which side of him I'll get. He's not inconsistent in a super moody way or a way that suggests a mental issue--I think he's inconsistent about what the focus of his experience is when he's experiencing it, and so the exact same series of events could be very different for him based on what he's paying attention to each time. He's very much a person for whom time is NOW and NOT NOW and that's it, and he wants to be totally absorbed in what he's doing. Ditto for things he can see, taste, smell, touch. If a flower smells good when he walks by it, that's more real than the deadline he's supposed to be meeting.

 

[kbutton]

DP

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by kbutton

[Suzanne in ABQ]

How to adjust your expectations? Withhold definition.

Every time you look at your husband, see him for the first time, in that moment. Don't compare him to who you remember in the past, or who you wish he were now. Just see him, REALLY see him. Do this every time, see him as he is in this moment, and do it again in the next moment, without judgment or expectation. Just observe him. Really try to see who he is. 

When you have a conversation with him, listen without distraction, without analysis, without back story. Just listen to him without any inner dialog in your own head about what you are going to say in response. Listen without any agenda. Listen without any "yes, but..." going on in your head. Listen openly, and learn.

"If you actually see the person as they are, they will change, for they have been seen."  ~Tommy Thompson

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

It was kind of a revelation to me. My mom has been divorced three times, so I really don't have a marriage model to emulate, and my vision of what it was going to be like was definitely all sunshine and flowers. The idea that's it OK to sometimes communicate forcefully, because everyone is happier when you actually get what you NEED (and I do make a big distinction between NEED and WANT -- many things I'd kind of, sort of like are a want.) 

Of course, the first step there is to figure out what the actual, non-negotiable NEEDS are for yourself. Which is where going to counseling alone, or just taking some time and thinking about it can really help. 

Yes - wants vs needs is important! Women often dismiss their needs as just wants that are not important, then get angry about wants because they are so jaded after years of needs being unmet. 

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

QFT. 

I always thought, one thing that is best avoided, is constantly bitching about your mate to your friends. For one thing, if the friend is not a particular defender of marriage in general, they can really fan the flames of discontent. 

When dh and I were newlyweds, we were in circles with a lot of other newlyweds. One night we were talking about how uncomfortable it made us when we were around people who were doing the little jabs at each other in the greater context of friends, and how it was obvious to (probably) everybody how they needed to spend some time working things out in private rather than bringing them to the larger group and getting back at each other then. Or by doing the quoted above. We made a compact that if we were having trouble, we would not go talking about the other to other people without permission, in the context that we were seeking solutions together. And we have pretty much avoided the complaints to others over the years. Now and then, we've had to clarify when we felt put down by something, but this has been a good policy. Granted, it wouldn't work in all contexts with all spouses. Sometimes a person needs advice on what to do in a volatile or dangerous situation, or in a situation where one is simply being a selfish boor. But for many of us, it helps focus on the positive. We also realized how much we were influenced by the people we were hanging out with; if we were with a couple who had fun together and who were encouraging to one another, we would come home feeling good about each other. If we were hanging with people who were not enjoying each other and were snippy and critical, we'd feel dissatisfied with each other. It was eye-opening to see how much the company we kept affected us.

[marbel]

What Quill said, for sure. What she describes is very similar to my own experience after 25 years.  

Something else I learned along the way, from a Christian perspective: Marriage is less about having a fun loving relationship and more about my own sanctification. This does not mean put up with abuse, infidelity, or any other stuff that is not ok. More like, recognize that it's not always going to go the way I want it to, but I am to love this person with whom I chose to tie my life up with. 

A book that has been somewhat helpful to us is Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson, which is a terrible title but a pretty good book about the ways couples often communicate in ways that sabotage their relationship. This is based on Emotionally Focused Therapy with which some may be familiar.

About just doing things as Quill said... this is not really related, but somewhat. I have found my own desires for food changing a lot. I am going more and more for salads and fresh foods, while my husband is a very strong meat-and-potatoes guy. But slowly I have just started buying more salad things and making interesting vegetable dishes. I don't push them on anyone else, I offer. I have also just started eating less meat when he or I cook it. The change is making me happy because I enjoy what I'm eating more, and he is trying new things and finding he enjoys them. I enjoy sharing new recipe ideas with him, so that is a point of connection.

We don't tend to read the same sorts of books, but we talk about and send each other interesting things we've found online, just to give us some more points of connection. 

We are both still learning to express our needs. I have an intense need for time alone which has been thwarted since even before Covid though it's gotten worse since then. I am forthright about it but take care to, say, not always go walking alone when I know my husband would like to go. For example, my morning walks are always solo, but an evening walk has together become a standard thing. As Quill said, this can be a good place to bring up issues in a comfortable, casual way. I sometimes find myself angry when we first start walking, but even if we don't talk about some issue I find myself getting more relaxed as we go.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by marbel

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

***Warning***  My views are every counter-cultural, so you might want to brace yourself for a very different point of view than most American females have. 

***Background***My husband had a crisis of faith and left our shared faith 16 years ago, which was 12 years into our marriage with 3 young kids at home. Everything about our married changed completely.  The first ten years after the change are the hardest, but it gets better if you get flexible in your thinking.

"How do you adjust your expectations when you feel like certain needs of yours aren't being met, and your spouse is extremely unlikely to change?"

By no longer expecting your spouse to meet those needs and finding other ethical ways of meeting them that don't involve him. Mentally fire him from that job (not in a resentful way, but matter-of-factly) and start looking for replacements.  Obviously I'm not talking about a physical or emotional affair (but thanks to internet culture I have to say it outloud. )  Specify your needs and seek out other ethical outlets for meeting them.

"Communication has completely broken down and every time we try to talk about our issues it appears to make things worse because we really can't see each other's point of view. I'm starting to realize things will probably never get better."

Most people over estimate the value of having someone else see your point of view.  It's better to just have some respect you while your voice it, respect your differences, and give you room to develop them elsewhere with their blessing. 

 "I just want to change my expectations and accept this, but I'm really struggling with actually doing it."

You do things by doing them.  When you start to tell yourself he's not meeting your expectations, remind yourself that you fired him for that job and hired someone/something else. Then get to work on your relationship with the someone else or something else. Actually take some sort of constructive action that demonstrates putting that expectation elsewhere.

How do you usually respond to change?  Do you tend to fight it and resent it or are you usually able to adapt to it?  Are you someone prone to idealism who keeps insisting on how things should be, or are you a realist able to focus your thoughts and actions on how things are ? Do you keep looking to the familiar past for a framework for projecting what you'll do about the present and future or are you able to pivot and restructure a new framework based on the new reality with your spouse? All of the first halves of those questions are a recipe for resentment, anger, and strife. The second halves are a recipe for improving the situation in a constructive way.

In the immortal words of Ragnar Lothbrok, "Don't bother looking back-you aren't going that way." I suggest you assume this is your new normal, so you should think,  say,  and do things based on your new normal. That's what accepting it means.

Spending a lot of time on your feelings about there being a new normal seems counter-productive to me. (I assume you've expressed those feelings already in some way.) Now it's time to move on in the context of the new normal. It's perfectly appropriate to cry and wail and rage about your house being burnt down, but then the time comes when it's appropriate to start clearing the rubble and laying the new foundation. You won't get much cleared and laid if you keep stopping to cry and wail and rage.

"My husband has many good qualities and I'd like to focus on those but mentally I feel stuck focusing on the fact that we are just not best friends like we used to be.  "

I think expecting spouses to be best friends in a marriage is a recipe for failed marriages.  It's like handwriting an invitation to Trouble asking it to please come live with you.  I know, I know, it's culturally normative to expect your spouse to be your best friend, but it's one of the biggest sources of conflict in marriages because it's a completely  unrealistic expectation. Does it work out that way sometimes in some marriages?  Yes!  Should anyone ever expect that to be the case at all much less for the duration of the marriage?  No!  There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with spouses not being best friends.  It's the norm.

Friendships are to be had with lots of different people.  Companionship too.  People need multiple circles of relationships in their lives.  It's unfair that some expect all of it to come from one source like their nuclear family or spouse.  (I don't know if this is the case with you or not.) No one can meet all their spouse's emotional needs. 
 

"In our case, for multiple reasons, both therapy and splitting up are currently not options. Also this is not in any way an abusive situation.

Please share any insights, coping mechanisms or really anything that might help! We are both Christians so biblical advice is welcome too. I hate feeling so trapped and hopeless." 😞

Women in particular would benefit from reading widely about times past when marriage was not romanticized. (Before the 1800s.) It would dramatically improve expectations. And no, I don't mean women's lack of rights, I mean that marriage was seen as an economic, religious, and sometimes political institution for bringing up children and stabilizing society, not about personal fulfillment or even companionship.  Sometimes personal fulfillment and companionship developed in some marriages, but it wasn't necessarily characteristic of marriage itself.  Women developed emotional intimacy and companionship among other women in friendships.

Having a working understanding of personality differences is HUGE.  Anyone who isn't already familiar with the basic differences in Meyers-Briggs and the Big 5 would benefit from putting in the effort. It goes in long way avoiding unnecessarily hurt feelings.

There is a lot of wisdom in this. I hope people won't write it off without trying to understand it on a deeper level. I would say my dh is my best friend; we moved a lot and also lived in places where I was often socially isolated from women like me. It also relates to our introverted personalities. Our Myers-Briggs letters are very close, so we also understand each others personalities and needs in many ways. That doesn't mean people with opposite personalities can't have a good marriage, but it is carried out in different ways than ours. I have seen many marriages where women needed those women friendships, and their marriage was strong and solid without the "best friend" element. The "girlfriends" helped those women be happy and content, and to enjoy their husbands more because they weren't putting that expectation on them. For me, personally, I have found I am happier when I have little separate groups for different interests and purposes in my life. For example, one group was a music group I was in; I knew the members as acquaintances but didn't run with them in any other context. But that group was so much fun and met needs my dh couldn't meet. Even though I am an introvert, I like having a variety of people to interact with, so I like those groups to be separate from each other without much overlap.  ...I think I'm getting way off topic here...

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Having a working understanding of personality differences is HUGE.  Anyone who isn't already familiar with the basic differences in Meyers-Briggs and the Big 5 would benefit from putting in the effort. It goes in long way avoiding unnecessarily hurt feelings.

I don't know what the Big 5 is, but how do you get your spouse to take Myers-Briggs into consideration, and if they do take a look, how do you get them to internalize it in some way? Serious question. 

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

I’ve also paradoxically found that being too nice about crossed boundaries was a problem. It’s important to communicate what your boundaries are and actually stick to them. The best mode is, of course, firm and nice but inflexible, but I have trouble with that. But I’ve found anger to be a better option than letting yourself be walked on, because festering resentment is worse than one bad fight.

Oh, gosh yes! Especially with people who naturally press them or are just oblivious. 

Another serious question for anyone--so, is there a next step after being clear and then getting clearly peeved? Like, if you are pretty clear, but the recipient is pretty clueless or changes at a glacial pace, what do you do while you wait? Can you speed this up? If it's basically the same thing as another problem and has the same solution, can you use synergy to get both problems solved at the same time? 

I have examples but don't want to derail. I assume a generic form of the answer could be helpful to others. 

[Scarlett]

I like a book called His Needs/Her Needs.  It is by the the guy who owns the Marriage Builders site that Katy mentioned but I despise that site now.  That are just so militant and radical.  But the book itself is excellent even if your spouse won’t read it, it is helpful for seeing the general picture about how men and women function in a marriage....in general. And if your spouse will read it too it is good to take the assessment and each of you figure out what your top needs are.  
 

I never was quiet about my needs being ignored or my boundaries being crossed in my first marriage.  I don’t know maybe he thought he couldn’t please me and stopped trying.  Regardless that marriage ended over one more affair and I was just done.  So like others had said I would never suggest anyone stay when there is adultery, abuse or addiction, unless it is recognized and stopped and there is a plan for it not to resume.  

[marbel]

Re: spouse as best friend - I just picked up on that.

My husband has spent very little of my life as my best friend. Actually, I dislike the concept of best friends. I have had many friends in my life, and some were great friends in their ways. My good friend with whom I went to the Renaissance Faire multiple times every year, in costume, was not replaced by my husband, though he did go to the Faire and enjoyed it. My husband certainly did not replace the friend with whom I spent hours doing needlework and talking about everything  under the sun, or the friend with whom I shared a mission one  year to visit the dumpiest dive bars in our city.  Etc., etc. Which one was my best friend? They all had their place in my life. 

My husband is the most important person in my life, but best friend? Nah. Some days I don't even like him. (And I am sure the feeling is mutual at times.) 

[kbutton]

29 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Even though I am an introvert, I like having a variety of people to interact with, so I like those groups to be separate from each other without much overlap.  ...I think I'm getting way off topic here...

I don't think it's off-topic. I think it's a gem of a statement that helps you understand yourself and your needs. I find that same thing to be exhausting and makes me feel like pieces of myself are spread out across the galaxy and are very disintegrated. I wouldn't want only one or two friends that I obsessively do everything with either, but it's nice if you don't feel like you exhaust all topics of conversation past the two that you have in common, lol! 

It might be that you have enough in common with your DH because of your MB profiles that you don't have as many unmet needs, so there is just less you need from friends. 

I have a completely different situation where my DH and I have introversion as our only quality in common. That might be why it's so hard for me to have my "book friend" and my "gardening friend" but not have someone that's just an all-around friend. At the moment, I do have and enjoy some of all of those kinds of friends and have been slowly finding out one is truly an all-around friend--it's just that it's a lot more work and more draining. I also sometimes wonder if having a DH that is so, so different (and such an extreme version of his own personality type and having ADHD) actually creates more needs than I would have if I were single or married to someone not quite so different. 

[City Mouse]

It is hard to change your expectations, but it can be done. When I think back 30 yrs ago to what I though marriage and family would be like, it is very different than what live is like at my house. Sometimes, you have to lower your expectations and/or be willing to think a bit out of the box. Find ways to get your needs met without the spouse (not talking about cheating). It is hard to give specific suggestion without more details about  your specific issues, but I will do the best I can with examples from my live.

My DH is a police officer. He has worked shift work, work holidays, etc since we were married. I had to do a lot on my own from the day to day of running a household, raising kids, and my own full time job, to big events like Holiday dinners and family weddings, even family vacations. I figured out that if I waited around until he was able to participate with us, we would still be waiting. My DS and I have had some great times on road trips that DH missed out on. Now that my youngest has graduated, my next plan is to buy a small travel trailer and go places by myself during summers. Since I am a teacher, I am stuck to school holidays for vacations, but by DH can’t take off much time in the summers because we live in a touristy area. DH takes his own vacation trips usually in the fall. He often goes to sporting events or cigar smoking events which are things I am not interested in attending.

Because of DHs Work schedule, we never developed the tradition of eating dinner together as a family every night. I tried, but after lots of hurt feelings on my part, I gave up on that. I cook what I want when I want. Everyone else is welcome to eat with me or not. They can eat leftovers later or cook for themselves when they are hungry. I acknowledge that this wouldn’t work with younger kids, but when the kids were younger, I would make sure there was food to eat, tell them when it was ready, but it was up to them to eat or not.

i am very, very introverted. My DH is the exact opposite. He loves to spend time with other people -all the time it seems. I can’t do that. I would try, but then I would be unhappy. He was not happy to always stay at home and watch tv with me. So we don’t. He goes out to visit friends, drink beer and hang out, and I stay home most of the time. He has community groups that he participates in that I have no interest in at all. More than once, different people he knows have joked that they don’t think I am real because they never see me. He is happy to go out without me, and I don’t mind that he goes out. I ha e never had fears of him doing anything inappropriate when I am not around. Occasionally I wish he would spend more time with me, but that is when I have to put more effort into being social.

I wanted to add that it took many, many years for me to get comfortable with how things work in our family. We did go through some difficult times, or at least I did. Maybe DH was oblivious. At one point I even started looking for my own apartment, but I worked through things, and I am content with how things are. We usually agree on all the big things in life, so I have learned to let the smaller things go. Although, ignoring the mess (hoard) that is his office is very hard. 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by City Mouse

[Jaybee]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

That’s such a hard question, isn’t it? It’s pretty easy to get a “grass is greener” feeling about long and complicated relationships. I don’t know the answer for you, but for me, it’s helpful to think about what DH does contribute.

There are also cycles, when you've been married a long time, as I have been. Sometimes things are just harder (and they don't always have to do with him and his personality). Occasionally, I stop to think about what he has to put up with in me, and that's a little scary, lol. I am not trying to minimize what the OP is going through. I think her questions are good ones, and the kinds of questions that most who have been married for any length of time have to work through. But there are definitely cycles when I am less satisfied not only with him, but with life overall. Then it comes back around (but usually takes effort on our part), and things are so, so good. We also all change, and adjustments to the changes can take time as well.

[R828]

I'm really overwhelmed by the amount of time you all have put into trying to help me. I'm blown away by the kindness, so thank you!

I'm sorry about being vague but I don't think giving more details will be necessarily helpful because of course I can never share the whole picture, only a one sided version and I don't think that is fair or helpful. 

hjffkj: yes, my greatest fear is that I will turn into a bitter resentful person over this and I definitely don't want to. I'm going to pray for opportunities for communication and for the ability to communicate in a gentle way that actually gets through to him.

Junie: I have 'The Power of the Praying Wife' book! I need to read it and definitely pray more too. I really do want God to change my heart. 

Scarlett: Yes, I am definitely committed to keeping my vows. I see marriage as being a covenant reflecting God's covenant with us. And I really do love him. 

13 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

I am self-admittedly low on the listen-to-me-for-marriage-advice list, but one of the fastest things that helped return a sense of hope to the situation was focusing not on the positive traits (because then I would drift to thinking about the traits I *wish* he had or that he *used* to have) but on the things that we could still actively share together. For us, it was video games, movies (and talking about them afterwards), and soundtracks. I am not exaggerating when I say we spent probably 8 months doing one of those things every night together, and sometimes all three things (and sometimes taking a whole day, even though we had the kids around), just to foster the connection. It didn't make the other problems go away, but it helped with my perspective and ability to cope. 

Eventually you have to address the actual issues, but this may give you a better common ground to start with, so that it doesn't feel always confrontational or different sides. 

In the end I also changed my expectations, but it didn't feel as much like I was "giving up" or "giving in" or "settling", as much as accepting a new reality and finding for myself the best way to live in it for me. I probably wouldn't have been so accepting of the new reality if it did not include a lot of common ground with DH.  

eta: Also, if this is a general feeling unloved thing and not something "more serious" (not to say feeling unloved isn't serious), have you guys done the 5 Love Languages and are your correct languages being used?

 

I think our situation is similar and this really spoke to me, especially as something I can practically do. Thank you so much!! We do enjoy board games and travel, though he hasn't had much time for the former and Covid has killed the latter. I'm a book person and he is a movie/TV guy but I can try to watch something with him just to have something neutral to discuss. 

MercyA: I will try. Thank you for the support!

12 hours ago, frogger said:

I also agree with prayer, not just for him to meet your needs but just him as in individual. Is he walking with God? Is he stressed at work? Does he need emotional healing? If God gives you insight into helping him, he may grow and change and you may find him returning the favor.

I also would really recommend the book Crucial Conversations:Tools for Talking When Stakes are High.  My husband's management team read it for work but it really will apply to personal situations too and we read it together and need to practice it more with extended family! But it is good for all types of conversations.

 Yes, I'm sure I'm not meeting some of his needs too. He is very stressed at work and I really do want to help him, but he isn't letting me. But I'm praying God shows me how to. Thank you for the book rec!

 

[R828]

I'm trying to reply to everyone but it's getting really overwhelming! I'm sorry if I don't respond to each of you individually but I really do appreciate everything you have said and the time you have taken to try to help. 

I especially appreciate the personal stories and the book recs. Thank you all so much. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

That’s such a hard question, isn’t it? It’s pretty easy to get a “grass is greener” feeling about long and complicated relationships. I don’t know the answer for you, but for me, it’s helpful to think about what DH does contribute.

Yes, it is! 

[R828]

Sorry! Deleted...too much personal info. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by R828

[R828]

10 hours ago, J-rap said:

I'm so sorry you're going through this.  After spending a few really difficult years walking alongside two people -- both very, very close to me, who were really struggling in their marriage, I have a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

 

I'd ask a few questions:

Is there any chance of a mental disorder?  Either a mental illness, disordered thinking, or extreme personality tendencies?  Depression?

Is this person sometimes a rather selfish, stubborn type of person, possibly caught up in an unhealthy way of of viewing relationships due to his family upbringing, particular church theology, etc?

Are there bad habits, addictions, etc. involved?

Or maybe he's generally a thoughtful, caring man who just happens to have a different perspective on things than you do?

Is it possible that it's not really the relationship as much as other things being extremely stressful:  job, money, etc?

What do you think your part has been in the ongoing struggles?

 

Anyway, answering those questions can be a helpful place to start, and can shed new insight.  

 

Another question that's sometimes helpful:  Can you pinpoint a time or event when things started to change?  That could give insight too.

And a biggie:  Are you able to meet him at the place where he feels most neglected or unsupported?  Not the place that you think should be the most important (and very likely is), but the place where he feels most need right now?

 

A psychologist friend of mine once told me that it's surprising how a very little thing can get a person or a marriage to turn toward a path of healing.  Sometimes all it takes is a tiny sliver of connection, or a sliver of insight, that lasts long enough in a person's brain to cause that person to momentarily question themselves.  If their brain holds that thought for even 30 seconds, then chances are that thought will come up again later.  Only the next time, it'll last a little longer, and the next time, longer still.  And the next time, it might actually trigger a small change that eventually triggers bigger changes.  Don't expect a major revelation right at the start (that's always people's hope, of course.)     Instead, just try and find a sliver that sticks.  

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this! Lots of pertinent and thought provoking questions. Especially the biggie. I will be thinking about this. Thank you!

 

[Harriet Vane]

One thought on depression and not wanting to take pills or do therapy:

Years ago I went to my doctor and told him I was positive that I was clinically depressed. Told him how hard I tried to exercise my way out of it, tried to take vitamins through it. How exhausted I was, how much I slept. And so on. I fully expected him to give me a prescription for an antidepressant, and I would have taken it because I absolutely could not cope any more.

That blessed man look at me thoughtfully for a long moment. Maybe a couple moments. We'd know each other for many years first as neighbors and friends, and then as our family doctor. I used to pay his kids to carry my groceries upstairs to our flat--they loved earning a whole dollar for the effort, LOL. He knew he could trust me for my honesty for how bad it had gotten, and I absolutely trusted his medical expertise, his integrity, his kindness. 

"For you, I think we need to dig a little deeper," he said. Ordered extensive blood work. And a week later I learned that I was extremely anemic. 

Taking iron supplements literally changed my life. 

I am so grateful to that doctor. (We moved out of state and I really miss him and his family.) I am also grateful that he didn't add up the totally-legitimate stressors in my life at the time and say fatigue and negative feelings are natural with all that going on. That kind of thing is sooooo patronizing. 

My point is that depression and exhaustion are the natural results of numerous physical ailments. It's probably worth getting a thorough medical workup. Rephrase what's bothering him into purely clinical terms. List his symptoms. The first and most obvious is that bone-crushing exhaustion. 

It is possible he is experiencing depression. It's possible there is something physical going on. Just another avenue to consider investigating.

[frogger]

18+ hours is definitely a sign of depression.  It is really hard to pull yourself out of depression or to communicate with someone with depression. I am glad you have some friends to lean on. Of course, one must be careful who you share with but if there is someone local and physically present that can pray with you, be there for you, help you out at times then yes, it might be time to share with someone who can be closer to the situation. It is especially helpful if that person knows a little about depression or mental illness. 

 

ETA: I really like Harriet Vane's response too. 

May God give you wisdom as you sort this out. 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by frogger

[maize]

Depression in a spouse is a really, really tough thing to deal with.

My husband has been where you describe your husband being--actually, the periods where he just worked and slept were some of our better periods; at his worst he wasn't making it in to work or even out of bed consistently and was irrationally angry often at home. 

Your husband is not likely able to perceive the effects his mental health troubles are having on the family.

The treatment that finally helped dh--after many years of trying medication and counseling--was Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. It's an FDA approved treatment for depression that uses electromagnets to stimulate parts of the brain that are typically underactive in people with depression. He finished the treatment series almost a year ago and this past year is by far the most healthy and functional he has been in all our years of marriage.

I know many men refuse to seek treatment for mental health struggles; unfortunately this often leads to marriages becoming unsustainable. It is worth taking the time to learn everything you can about depression and encouraging your husband if you are able to learn more himself.

Edited September 8, 2020 by maize

[regentrude]

That additional information makes a big difference, IMO.
It is very difficult to be the spouse of a person who is suffering from depression. I would look for some support from friends, or perhaps a support group for people with loved ones who suffer from mental illness. It's a very lonely place to be in. You might even benefit from therapy for yourself, if your DH is not yet at the point of considering that for himself.

But remember: depression is not something he has control over. He cannot simply snap out of it and engage with you - it's precisely the symptom of the disease that that is impossible. And while there are medications, they first require the person to acknowledge that they are ill. And even then it can be very daunting when one is familiar with the bad track record of anti-depressants and the thought that one may have to experiment with prescriptions for many months with no guarantee of an actual cure. (There may be deeper reasons for a depressed person to refuse medication, like the fear that it won't work and they are left with no hope - and as long as they're not medicating, they still have one thing left to try before the abyss)

He might be open to the suggestion to engage with an online support group for people with mental illness, if he can muster the energy. He would find understanding there and kinship.
 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by regentrude

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

I don't know what the Big 5 is, but how do you get your spouse to take Myers-Briggs into consideration, and if they do take a look, how do you get them to internalize it in some way? Serious question.

I didn't get my spouse to take it, I'm talking about understanding it for my own sake.  I do talk about things in terms of personality type and he does too, he just does it with less precision. When it's an aspect of life you both explicitly  take into consideration for yourself and dealing with other people, it's more normalized.  I talk about it like I expect an adult to already know about it.

I say things like:
"Well, I want more social interaction than you do, so we'll drive separately so you can leave earlier if you want."
"That's going to be introvert hell." 
"I'm taking the extrovert to an event this time, but you have to serve your turn next time." 
"I'm too INTJ for that."
"Of course they did that, they're more emotionally wired than me."
"Yes, but they're not very high in conscientiousness, so what an you expect?"
"Well, she does have higher levels of negative emotion than most people, so that will have to be taken into account."
"You don't usually pick up on things like that, so you should just ask them."
"I think you've seen me react negatively to that enough times to plan accordingly in the future."

You can google "Big 5 personality" for more info.

[regentrude]

One more suggestion: if he won't see a traditional therapist, might he perhaps consider a program like Talkspace or BetterHealth that lets clients interact with their therapist via text message? I can see that the barrier to going to an office and seeing somebody face-to-face is quite high (and it can take forever to find a therapist that works and you can waste a lot of money and time in the process. Those programs have a large pool of therapists and let you switch if it's not a good fit.

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

How to adjust your expectations? Withhold definition.

Every time you look at your husband, see him for the first time, in that moment. Don't compare him to who you remember in the past, or who you wish he were now. Just see him, REALLY see him. Do this every time, see him as he is in this moment, and do it again in the next moment, without judgment or expectation. Just observe him. Really try to see who he is. 

When you have a conversation with him, listen without distraction, without analysis, without back story. Just listen to him without any inner dialog in your own head about what you are going to say in response. Listen without any agenda. Listen without any "yes, but..." going on in your head. Listen openly, and learn.

"If you actually see the person as they are, they will change, for they have been seen."  ~Tommy Thompson

 

This is such great advice for so many occasions and types of relationships!

[HS Mom in NC]

Depression is a medical condition.

I would ask him if he thought sleeping all day and not interacting with his family was what God had in mind for a husband and father.  If not, what is he willing to do about it because it's his responsibility. Then I would wait for an answer.

If he flat out refused to answer I'd ask him if he thought my sleeping 18 hours a day was how I should live as a wife and mother.  If not, what did he think a woman in that situation should do about it?

What does he think other people suffering from depression should do about it?